Latest / True Crime and Wine Time / EXCLUSIVE - Chief Judge Belvin Perry Jr. & Amy Mitchell on Casey Anthony & THE VELVET HAMMER

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EXCLUSIVE - Chief Judge Belvin Perry Jr. & Amy Mitchell on Casey Anthony & THE VELVET HAMMER · True Crime and Wine Time

• 0:40
  Speaker 1: D D and then back and Adair and.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: The Adam and up and dam.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: Uh yeah.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Hello everybody, and welcome to us special episode of
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: True Crime and Wine Time. I'm JT. And here's my
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: co host.
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: I am Terry True Crime and guys, it's a Monday
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  Speaker 3: night and we're together. We have never been together on
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: a Monday night and I love.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: Not once, not once.
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  Speaker 4: So it is a special night all around.
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  Speaker 2: It is. It is tonight. We are honored to be
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  Speaker 2: joined by two remarkable individuals who have made significant contributions
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  Speaker 2: to both the legal world and the realm of storytelling.
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  Speaker 2: So first we have Chief Judge Belvin Perry Junior, a
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  Speaker 2: name many of you might recognize as the presiding judge
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  Speaker 2: in one of the most infamous trials in history, the
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  Speaker 2: Casey Anthony Case. But his distinguished career extends far beyond
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  Speaker 2: that high profile trial. With decades of experience both as
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  Speaker 2: a prosecutor and a judge, Chief Judge Perry has been
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  Speaker 2: at the forefront of justice in Florida, overseeing cases that
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  Speaker 2: have shaped legal history. He's here to share not only
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  Speaker 2: his insights on some of those landmark cases, but also
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  Speaker 2: to discuss his career, his views on the justice system
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  Speaker 2: and thoughts on the death penalty. We're also delighted to
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  Speaker 2: welcome Amy Mitchell, chief Judge Perry's co author on their
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  Speaker 2: compelling book, The Velvet Hammer. Together they have crafted a
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  Speaker 2: deeply insightful look into the trials, both literal and personal,
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  Speaker 2: that have shaped his life and career. Amy is an
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  Speaker 2: accomplished writer, and her collaboration with Chief Judge Perry has
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  Speaker 2: resulted in a narrative that captures the complexities of the
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  Speaker 2: legal world with clarity and depth. Tonight, we are going
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  Speaker 2: to explore their shared journey in bringing this book to life,
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  Speaker 2: discuss some of the most fascinating cases from Judge Perry's
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  Speaker 2: illustrious career, and delve into the mind of one of
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  Speaker 2: the most influential figures in the legal world. So please
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  Speaker 2: welcome me, Please join me. Yeah, welcome me too, but
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  Speaker 2: please join me in welcoming Chief Judge Belvin Perry Junior,
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  Speaker 2: and Amy Mitchell.
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  Speaker 5: Good evening.
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  Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, We're so happy to have you. Thank you
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: for joining us, Thank you for having us now.
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  Speaker 3: We are jon excited to have your here, and I
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  Speaker 3: know JT and I are both very excited.
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  Speaker 4: I loved the book.
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  Speaker 3: I thought it was amazing and as I was telling
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  Speaker 3: the judge earlier, I stayed up till four o'clock in
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  Speaker 3: the morning reading it. So you guys did an amazing
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  Speaker 3: job it. It grabbed your attention like immediately, and you
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  Speaker 3: had I couldn't put it down. I was like, okay,
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  Speaker 3: at stop, I got I gotta know more. So thank
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  Speaker 3: you for you know, blessing us and coming on and
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  Speaker 3: talking with us.
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  Speaker 5: Well, thanks for having us.
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  Speaker 3: And we are glad you're both safe in Florida and
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  Speaker 3: that you were still able to make it. I was
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: a little worried when I saw Milton was going to
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: come pay a visit.
• 5:23
  Speaker 5: Well Milton didn't stay too long, but he stayed long
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  Speaker 5: enough where glad Milton is gone.
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: And you don't want him to come back anytime soon, right,
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: no one and.
• 5:35
  Speaker 5: Done is enough for him or any other hurricane. Let's
• 5:38
  Speaker 5: keep our fingers groused that those two depressions now won't
• 5:43
  Speaker 5: firm in the hurricanes.
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, mother nature, Yeah, needs to take a break. Needs
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: to take a break.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: Well, so you don't have to go home, but you
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  Speaker 2: can't stay here, right Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: JT says that a lot to me, so I do
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  Speaker 3: know it also goes with herricades. But now I have
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  Speaker 3: to say, The Velvet Hammer paints a unique picture of
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  Speaker 3: your career. What inspired you to write the book?
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  Speaker 4: And how did you.
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  Speaker 3: Approach recounting such significant and often intense I mean, this
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  Speaker 3: was an intense experience. So I want to know what
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  Speaker 3: inspired you and how did you come about recounting all
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  Speaker 3: of this?
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  Speaker 5: Well, Number one, it was never my intention to write
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  Speaker 5: a book. I had been asked three years about writing
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  Speaker 5: a book, and I emphatically said no. Then there was
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  Speaker 5: a lady who cold called me at my law office,
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  Speaker 5: Amy Mitchell, and she asked me would I come speak
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  Speaker 5: to her law class at I believe Lake Holland Prep. No,
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  Speaker 5: not Lake Holland, but wind to me a prep. Yes,
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  Speaker 5: and I accepted. I asked her what she wanted me
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  Speaker 5: to talk about. She said, just talk about your career
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  Speaker 5: and things of that nature. After that, she said, you
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  Speaker 5: really need to write a book, and I said, no,
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  Speaker 5: I'm really not interested in writing a book. And if
• 7:32
  Speaker 5: truth be told, she called me a couple of times
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  Speaker 5: after that and persuaded persuaded me that it would be
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  Speaker 5: a good idea to write a book.
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  Speaker 4: Uh.
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  Speaker 5: And we just talked about my life, and we talked
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  Speaker 5: about the cases that I had done, not all of them,
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  Speaker 5: but the major ones in my career. So it took
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  Speaker 5: us three years to do it, but uh, you know,
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  Speaker 5: and Amy had the idea of weaving my life into
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  Speaker 5: the cases and how my life story affected how I
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  Speaker 5: acted doing those cases and what I did.
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  Speaker 3: Well, I personally think that was brilliant Amy. And I
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  Speaker 3: know I read that you wanted to write books and
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  Speaker 3: you were an author. I believe already to some extent
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  Speaker 3: what intrigued you about Judge Perry to want to write
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  Speaker 3: his story?
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  Speaker 6: So you are correct, I don't know, It's something innate
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  Speaker 6: in me. As a little girl, I just read books
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  Speaker 6: all the time, and I'd write stories since I was
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  Speaker 6: five years old. And I've been trying to get a
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  Speaker 6: book published. Even that young. I would, you know, try
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  Speaker 6: to submit it. Not at five, but you know, when
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  Speaker 6: I was in elementary school, high school, even law school,
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  Speaker 6: I was writing books. And I used to watch the
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  Speaker 6: Casey Anthony trial. Before I started practicing law, I was
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  Speaker 6: a stay at home mom and I was pregnant with
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  Speaker 6: my second child, and I was very fascinated with that case,
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  Speaker 6: especially because I was a mother too, and there was
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  Speaker 6: something about Judge Perry. I would tune in every single
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  Speaker 6: day of that trial just to watch him because I
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  Speaker 6: found it fascinating. I always wanted to be a judge
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  Speaker 6: as well, so I just found him fascinating. I thought
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  Speaker 6: he was really amazing in the courtroom. He was no nonsense.
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  Speaker 6: He commanded respect, he had a sense of humor, but
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  Speaker 6: you know, people really respected him. And I just said
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  Speaker 6: to myself every day, I'm going to write his book.
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  Speaker 6: He doesn't know it yet, but I'm going to write
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  Speaker 6: his book. I don't know how, I don't know when,
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  Speaker 6: but it's going to happen. And so that's when I
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  Speaker 6: in the law department five years after the trial, and
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  Speaker 6: I decided I would just look him up because I
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  Speaker 6: was always curious, you know, what's the judge up to.
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  Speaker 6: And he was actually working at a private law firm
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  Speaker 6: and a personal injury law firm, and like you said,
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  Speaker 6: I cold called him and that's he came and he lectured.
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  Speaker 6: And what he didn't mention is that these high school
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  Speaker 6: students are at the edge of their seats for the
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  Speaker 6: whole hour and a half that he lectured. His cases
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  Speaker 6: were so fascinating, and I said to him. You need
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  Speaker 6: to have a book, can I write it?
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  Speaker 4: That says a lot.
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  Speaker 3: If you can get that age group on the edge
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  Speaker 3: of their seats, that's a lot.
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  Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah. In a world of TikTok and thirty second videos,
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  Speaker 2: holding somebody's attention for five minutes alone is its real
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  Speaker 2: difficult these days. So that's that's just awesome.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Now you talk about the Casey Anthony trial. Now I've
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  Speaker 3: got to know how did you manage the intense media
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  Speaker 3: scrutiny during that case, because I, in my mind that
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  Speaker 3: is the case that blew up to some degree watching
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  Speaker 3: trials in my mind, or it did for me.
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  Speaker 5: Well, Number one, there was no privacy. I attempted to
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  Speaker 5: carry on a normal life. You know, I would go
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  Speaker 5: to publics, to the grocery store, and I had to
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  Speaker 5: stop going to publics because people would stop me, and
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  Speaker 5: of course I couldn't say anything but listen and move on,
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  Speaker 5: or say I can't talk with you about it. If
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  Speaker 5: I would go into a department store, I found out
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  Speaker 5: that people were video on me and that they would
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  Speaker 5: end up posting it on their Facebook pages. And you know,
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  Speaker 5: my adult daughter would call me and say, Dad, you know,
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  Speaker 5: were you uh and I said, yes, I just stopped
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  Speaker 5: by there to pick up something. Were you.
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  Speaker 3: Uh Oh, I think we we might have briefly laughed
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  Speaker 3: lost we might. That's because he had no privacy. The
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  Speaker 3: internet decided to give him a few seconds of privacy
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  Speaker 3: since he didn't have it, waiting for him to come back.
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  Speaker 3: But I can't imagine just going to the grocery store.
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  Speaker 2: I know, I know.
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  Speaker 6: It was a very oh sorry, go ahead, go ahead,
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  Speaker 6: go ahead. Well, I mean it was a very very
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  Speaker 6: famous case. Illions of people and even now Casey Anthony
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  Speaker 6: moved to Tennessee, Nashville, and she's apparently having this affair
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  Speaker 6: with a man who's been married for twenty years, and
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  Speaker 6: it's blowing up everywhere. So it's just a very popular case.
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  Speaker 5: Yay, I'm back.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, we decided to learn it decided to give you
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  Speaker 3: some privacy since you didn't have it before. It wanted
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  Speaker 3: to just let you know you can still have it,
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  Speaker 3: just by freezing for a minute.
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  Speaker 5: You know. I would go into restaurants a few times
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  Speaker 5: and I would be looking at a menu and next
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  Speaker 5: thing I noticed everybody's standing and taking pictures of videos
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  Speaker 5: of me. So my life was very sheltered. I remember
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  Speaker 5: lean to go visit someone in Alabama and they had
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  Speaker 5: my grandson with me and we were driving and we
• 14:08
  Speaker 5: stopped at a service station in Georgia. Uh and uh,
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  Speaker 5: people approached me there so airport. So my life was
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  Speaker 5: not my life. And still now today people remember me
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  Speaker 5: and ask me questions about case Anthony.
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  Speaker 2: So just was that the primary Oh sorry, was that
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  Speaker 2: the primary cause for like the trepidation and writing a
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  Speaker 2: book not to rehash or drum up that kind of
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  Speaker 2: attention again.
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  Speaker 5: No, that wasn't the trepidation. To be honest with you,
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  Speaker 5: I didn't think anybody would find my life interest.
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  Speaker 4: Uh, like I begged it first, sir, and.
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  Speaker 5: Uh, and that was the main reason. And you know,
• 15:02
  Speaker 5: and you know I'm quite busy, uh, you know, I
• 15:07
  Speaker 5: heavily involved in my community. I sit on a number
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  Speaker 5: of boards. So I just didn't take to did not
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  Speaker 5: want to take the time to be honest.
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  Speaker 3: With you, to do it now with the loss of
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  Speaker 3: the privacy, did you have people angry or anyone showing
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: up your house or anyone acting a fool or were
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: they just coming up to and trying to ask questions?
• 15:38
  Speaker 5: Well, of course I had a couple of death threats
• 15:42
  Speaker 5: during the trial. There were a couple of times that
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  Speaker 5: I had chase cars, i e. Police officers trailed me
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  Speaker 5: to the courthouse, and there was one time where I
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  Speaker 5: had twenty four hour protection you know, outside my house
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  Speaker 5: for you know, that comes with the territory, you know,
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  Speaker 5: in other cases. You know, I've had a reco case
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  Speaker 5: that I did where one of the defendants attempted to
• 16:17
  Speaker 5: hire a hitman to kill me. And matter of fact,
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  Speaker 5: two weekends ago, I ran into one of the police
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  Speaker 5: officers that was on the detail that guarded my house
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  Speaker 5: for a week.
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  Speaker 6: Wow.
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  Speaker 3: And I guess as people in the general public, we
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: don't think about that.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, I had an uncle.
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  Speaker 3: Who was a judge, but he was just a little
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: local justice of the peace, you know, So I always
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: assume everybody went about their life. But when you handle
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: a case like that, your whole world change. Did it
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: affect your family and did they have to be careful
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  Speaker 3: for when they went out in public?
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  Speaker 5: Yes they did. I mean it got to the point
• 17:08
  Speaker 5: where the captain that was over secured at the courthouse
• 17:13
  Speaker 5: arranged for me to have a canine German shepherd highly
• 17:24
  Speaker 5: trained local police department in another county was disbanding their
• 17:30
  Speaker 5: canine unit and we got this ninety five pound German
• 17:39
  Speaker 5: shepherd that became a part of our family. You know,
• 17:47
  Speaker 5: everyone in my household learned how to use a firearm, so,
• 17:57
  Speaker 5: you know, you learn to adapt to your environment, you
• 18:00
  Speaker 5: learn to deal with the stressless. Plus, you know, I
• 18:06
  Speaker 5: was raised in a police officer's home.
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: I was getting ready to say because in the book
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: you talk about your dad was one of the first
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: African American police officers in Orlando. I believe it was yes,
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: and that for him had to be life changing.
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: But you watching that and being in that household.
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: So you definitely were aware. You know, the legal system
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: of law enforcement.
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  Speaker 5: Exactly, you know, you know, go back to nineteen fifty
• 18:39
  Speaker 5: one in the heart of the Deep South, Yeah, where
• 18:46
  Speaker 5: segregation was still king. When my dad and Richard off
• 18:54
  Speaker 5: the Jones when they were first hired, they only could
• 18:57
  Speaker 5: patrol the black areas, walked a beat when they first
• 19:03
  Speaker 5: went on. They didn't have guns. They had a night stick, handcuffs,
• 19:10
  Speaker 5: and a thing called a slapjack, and if they had
• 19:15
  Speaker 5: to arrest someone, they had to walk them at least
• 19:18
  Speaker 5: a couple of blocks, handcuffed them to a telegraph pole,
• 19:25
  Speaker 5: a telephone line pole and wait for the paddy wagging
• 19:30
  Speaker 5: to come pick them up. As my dad once say,
• 19:34
  Speaker 5: that first year was kind of different because the criminals
• 19:38
  Speaker 5: had guns and weapons and they did.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they didn't have all the necessary tools in my
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: opinion that they needed to be successful, but they were successful.
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: In spite of that. It sounds like they.
• 19:55
  Speaker 5: Were successful, you know. And let's just face for that
• 20:00
  Speaker 5: was a different time. That was a time where it
• 20:06
  Speaker 5: was white and colored bathrooms, water fountains, schools were segregated,
• 20:13
  Speaker 5: neighborhoods were segregated. Uh. And there were communities that you
• 20:19
  Speaker 5: knew not to go into.
• 20:22
  Speaker 6: Uh.
• 20:23
  Speaker 5: And that was your world. That was a You couldn't
• 20:28
  Speaker 5: go into certain department stores and darn show, couldn't go
• 20:32
  Speaker 5: into a restaurant. If you wanted to a few restaurants
• 20:38
  Speaker 5: that would serve you, you had to go to the
• 20:40
  Speaker 5: back door out by the trash containers and place your order.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely.
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: Now no, Oh, I'm sorry, JT. I was gonna ask him,
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: because you were an attorney than a judge, Troll, did
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: you find more challenging or were they each challenging in
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: their own way?
• 21:06
  Speaker 5: They were very challenging. They were equally different. When I
• 21:15
  Speaker 5: became a prosecutor in Robert Egan's office, there had only
• 21:23
  Speaker 5: been one black prosecutor before me, and he had gone
• 21:29
  Speaker 5: and he became a judge. So when I went into
• 21:33
  Speaker 5: that office, I was the only black attorney in the
• 21:38
  Speaker 5: entire office. And I will never forget my first trial.
• 21:48
  Speaker 5: I went up to a witness elderly, well not elderly,
• 21:54
  Speaker 5: but she was in her fifties and sixties, African American
• 21:58
  Speaker 5: lady who was a witness, and I asked, you know,
• 22:02
  Speaker 5: I introduced myself and she said, don't play with me.
• 22:09
  Speaker 5: I don't have time to play. There are no black prosecutors.
• 22:16
  Speaker 5: I had to go get the bell of to come
• 22:20
  Speaker 5: in and assure her that I was, in fact to prosecutor.
• 22:26
  Speaker 5: So that's when I first case started out. Uh, you know,
• 22:31
  Speaker 5: they just didn't believe it. They were shocked. And yes,
• 22:38
  Speaker 5: they're the precious there. You can't have a bad day,
• 22:42
  Speaker 5: you have to you can't be average, you have to
• 22:48
  Speaker 5: be a superstar. And the same scrutiny followed me to
• 22:55
  Speaker 5: the bench that but parents.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, absolutely, I and I just want to
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: shift quickly over to Amy. Amy. It is evident that
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: Judge Perry has a ton of just amazing stories and moments.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: Were there any that stood out to you personally as
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: especially powerful or moving and how did you approach kind
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: of working out those sections.
• 23:31
  Speaker 6: It's a very good question. So in the beginning stages
• 23:35
  Speaker 6: of the book, Judge Perry would come to the country
• 23:38
  Speaker 6: club that in the community I live in. He'd meet
• 23:41
  Speaker 6: me about once a month for about an hour and
• 23:44
  Speaker 6: a half at a time, and one of those times
• 23:49
  Speaker 6: we sat down at the table in the veranda of
• 23:52
  Speaker 6: the clubhouse and he was telling his story about this
• 23:58
  Speaker 6: hot dog he saw when he was growing up there
• 24:02
  Speaker 6: was this hot dog counter, the lunch counter we'll work,
• 24:08
  Speaker 6: and he was explaining how, you know, during segregation, he
• 24:14
  Speaker 6: was not allowed to eat at the lunch counter and
• 24:17
  Speaker 6: he said he was a fourth grade boy, I believe
• 24:20
  Speaker 6: it was fourth grade, and he'd stared into the window
• 24:23
  Speaker 6: and watch those hot dogs rolling on this, you know,
• 24:27
  Speaker 6: on the grill, and he'd want that hot dog so badly,
• 24:31
  Speaker 6: and finally he was able to have that hot dog
• 24:36
  Speaker 6: some years later. And the way he just told that story,
• 24:40
  Speaker 6: because we were in person with each other, I just
• 24:43
  Speaker 6: really felt it. And his description and what it was
• 24:49
  Speaker 6: like for him to take that first bite of really freedom,
• 24:53
  Speaker 6: and all the thoughts that went into his mind, and
• 24:56
  Speaker 6: he said, for a moment, just for a moment, that
• 24:59
  Speaker 6: hot dog tasted bittersweet, and because he thought about all
• 25:04
  Speaker 6: the sacrifices everybody had to make. I don't know, it
• 25:06
  Speaker 6: was so powerful to me. I wrote that section of
• 25:12
  Speaker 6: the chapter fluidly, like it just came to me very easily.
• 25:17
  Speaker 6: I mean, obviously you have to have the sense and
• 25:19
  Speaker 6: you know the details, but that was a little bit challenging.
• 25:22
  Speaker 6: But other than that, I mean I just thought that
• 25:25
  Speaker 6: was a great It was great the way he told
• 25:26
  Speaker 6: it and what that hot dog meant.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: So yeah, reading that was was really moving. I mean
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: it was a really good way to kind of hook
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: into the book. Really, I mean, that story is incredible. Now, Judge,
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: that obviously kind of hits on your early life. How
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: would you say that your early life influenced the way
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: you connect with give back to your community, both as
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: a judge, a public figure, but also a member of
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: the community.
• 26:00
  Speaker 5: Well, it starts with my mom and dad. My parents
• 26:09
  Speaker 5: always believed in giving back. Throughout my formative years. In
• 26:19
  Speaker 5: elementary school, I always remembered. My dad would help elderly people.
• 26:27
  Speaker 5: He would take them to their medical appointments, he would
• 26:32
  Speaker 5: go grocery shopping for them, and he would take me
• 26:38
  Speaker 5: along with him sometimes. And my dad made a promise
• 26:45
  Speaker 5: to a venturer that he knew who had no family,
• 26:51
  Speaker 5: and my dad had promised him that when he passed
• 26:57
  Speaker 5: that he would, you know, have a funeral for him
• 27:02
  Speaker 5: and not just having buried by the state. And I
• 27:08
  Speaker 5: can remember all of my siblings, my mom. We missed
• 27:17
  Speaker 5: school that day and we went to mister John's funeral
• 27:22
  Speaker 5: and went to the cemetery and even went to the viewing.
• 27:32
  Speaker 5: And I was blessed to attend a church called Shiloh
• 27:36
  Speaker 5: Baptist Church. And that church was a church where our
• 27:44
  Speaker 5: motto was where everybody is somebody, And it had most
• 27:51
  Speaker 5: of the prominent African Americans that attended that church. One
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: was a Toorny Policy Perkins, who assisted through go At
• 28:05
  Speaker 5: Marshall in the Groveland murder cases. One was Willie James Bruden,
• 28:12
  Speaker 5: who was a local funeral director. He was the superintendent
• 28:16
  Speaker 5: of the Sunday School at one point, so was mister Perkins,
• 28:21
  Speaker 5: and they were my Sunday School teachers. And then there
• 28:23
  Speaker 5: was author Paty Kennedy who became the first black city commissioner.
• 28:34
  Speaker 5: And every time the church was open, we were there Sundays, Saturdays,
• 28:42
  Speaker 5: and during the week. And my dad always said, you
• 28:50
  Speaker 5: take the twos that you have, but you have to
• 28:54
  Speaker 5: get back and he stressed that to each and every
• 28:59
  Speaker 5: one of my siblings. So despite the fact that I
• 29:06
  Speaker 5: grew up in segregation, my father and mom would never
• 29:10
  Speaker 5: let us dwell upon that. And my dad told me
• 29:17
  Speaker 5: one time when I asked him when I first heard,
• 29:24
  Speaker 5: you know, someone get called the N word. My dad
• 29:29
  Speaker 5: held me sit down and he said, you never let
• 29:32
  Speaker 5: anybody define you. You define yourself and you tune out
• 29:40
  Speaker 5: the noise and you go about working with the twobs
• 29:43
  Speaker 5: that you have. And he always stressed, don't feel sorry
• 29:48
  Speaker 5: for yourself. If there's a door that's shut, find another
• 29:53
  Speaker 5: door to go through, and despite all the obstacles, you
• 29:59
  Speaker 5: will persevere. And they always stretched the value of an
• 30:04
  Speaker 5: education that people can take a lot of things away
• 30:07
  Speaker 5: from you, but they can't take your dignity and they
• 30:11
  Speaker 5: can't take the matter away from you that's in your head.
• 30:17
  Speaker 5: So that's the way I was raised, That's the way
• 30:19
  Speaker 5: each of my siblings were raised.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: My goodness, that's a great lesson. Everybody write it down
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: in your notebooks or you can check back later.
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: That is a great lesson.
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: And I think, you know, those of us who were
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: kind of raised the same way, I always say it's southern,
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: you know, the way we were raised. My grandmother was
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: the same way. No one could define who you are
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: and no one can take away you. So yeah, that's amazing.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: Now, you know, looking back, there's kind of a kind
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: of hopping into kind of on the judge side of things,
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: how do you feel that the legal systems evolved since
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: you started your career.
• 31:20
  Speaker 5: Well, the legal system is changed a great deal, but
• 31:26
  Speaker 5: it still has a long way to go. When I
• 31:34
  Speaker 5: started out, there were there were about three black judges.
• 31:41
  Speaker 5: When I left, we had sixty five judges, and only
• 31:47
  Speaker 5: five of the sixty five were African Americans. One of
• 31:53
  Speaker 5: the things I learned is in order for a system
• 31:57
  Speaker 5: to be fair, you got to have participation. Everybody can't
• 32:03
  Speaker 5: be a public defender. You need people of all races
• 32:11
  Speaker 5: and genders to be judges. In my circuit, now the
• 32:19
  Speaker 5: vast majority of the judges now female, and so the
• 32:27
  Speaker 5: system has evolved. It has a long way to go,
• 32:32
  Speaker 5: and but when you look at it, it's the best
• 32:37
  Speaker 5: system in the world. There's always room for improvement. Uh
• 32:41
  Speaker 5: and uh. You know, you got pockets all over the
• 32:45
  Speaker 5: United States where sometimes justice may not be fair. But
• 32:51
  Speaker 5: that's where the media and the press plays a role.
• 32:55
  Speaker 5: You know, that's where a fourth of state comes in
• 32:57
  Speaker 5: and they have a duty to expose those places. You know,
• 33:01
  Speaker 5: it's kind of strange. You don't see people love people
• 33:07
  Speaker 5: in the middle of Yankee Stadium, at the second base
• 33:13
  Speaker 5: plate in the stadium is full of people. It just
• 33:17
  Speaker 5: doesn't happen. That's where that media that forth the state
• 33:22
  Speaker 5: with the searching eye, in my opinion, have the duty
• 33:27
  Speaker 5: to expose those pockets, those pockets of injustice. You know,
• 33:35
  Speaker 5: justice is something that if it does not have the
• 33:39
  Speaker 5: appearance of justice, then people are not going to accept it.
• 33:46
  Speaker 5: And you've got to make sure that they are people
• 33:48
  Speaker 5: of all races and creeds that participate in the system,
• 33:54
  Speaker 5: and that keeps things balanced, you know, but don't say
• 34:00
  Speaker 5: some of the things they probably would have seen if
• 34:03
  Speaker 5: I was not at the table, and people tend to
• 34:09
  Speaker 5: look at things differently. Uh. And but you gotta take
• 34:16
  Speaker 5: part in the system, and you got to have a
• 34:18
  Speaker 5: seat at the table.
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree. Now I'm gonna jump in JT. Because
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: I have to ask, is the thing I found interesting
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: in your book? While I found many things interesting, but
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: one you didn't know whether or not you wanted to
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: be a doctor or a lawyer. And you have my
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: heart because you didn't like chemistry. I don't like chemistry,
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: and JT. And I don't math, so T see, I mean,
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: we just don't bath is dot r the we're right,
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: we don't do math. Have you ever wished that you
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: maybe would have become a doctor instead of an attorney
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: and a judge?
• 35:06
  Speaker 5: You know? No, I mean there were two things I
• 35:10
  Speaker 5: really enjoyed as a a kid. I remember I got
• 35:18
  Speaker 5: a microscope when I was in the third grade, and
• 35:23
  Speaker 5: one of the science projects that we did was to
• 35:28
  Speaker 5: take cut grass, put it in a mason jar with water,
• 35:36
  Speaker 5: and eventually, after a couple of weeks a one sell
• 35:43
  Speaker 5: a meeba and you got an eye dropper dropped it
• 35:48
  Speaker 5: on a slide and you could see that one sale ameba.
• 35:52
  Speaker 5: So I had always started with that had a keen
• 35:57
  Speaker 5: interest in science. You know, my dad had two wishes
• 36:09
  Speaker 5: he wanted two sons, which he had. He wanted one
• 36:13
  Speaker 5: son to be a doctor and one to be a lawyer.
• 36:18
  Speaker 5: And when I was in twelfth grade and I was
• 36:21
  Speaker 5: vacillating between the two organic chemistry, let me know that
• 36:30
  Speaker 5: the better part of valid was to stick with the law.
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: Has a way of doing that.
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: Yes, But if I remember correctly, your brother became a doctor,
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: so your dad got his wish.
• 36:48
  Speaker 5: He got his wish. My dad, we had my brother.
• 36:56
  Speaker 5: My baby brother is an orthopedic surgeon. My baby's sister
• 37:04
  Speaker 5: is a lawyer. She's now retired. I have a sister
• 37:08
  Speaker 5: who was the principal of a high school. She's retired.
• 37:13
  Speaker 5: And have another sister that was a small business owner
• 37:17
  Speaker 5: and she's retired. So he got his wish.
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: But the interesting thing about you telling about everyone's career,
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: everyone took a path that impacts and helps others. I
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: don't know if I'm the only one that caught that,
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: but school teacher, sir, I mean, each one does something
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: for someone else.
• 37:43
  Speaker 5: It's interesting. My sister was the principal of my alma
• 37:47
  Speaker 5: mater in high school, Jones High School. Took a school
• 37:53
  Speaker 5: that was a D school and took it to three
• 37:57
  Speaker 5: points short of an a school.
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: Oh wow, that's huge.
• 38:04
  Speaker 5: It is huge. And you know, and I mentor at
• 38:10
  Speaker 5: that school through an organization called one hundred Black Men
• 38:14
  Speaker 5: of Orlando, which is a part of one hundred Black
• 38:16
  Speaker 5: Men of America, and we've raised over the last fifteen
• 38:21
  Speaker 5: years close to three million dollars for scholarships. We have
• 38:26
  Speaker 5: about twenty two students in our program that are in
• 38:32
  Speaker 5: college now and they get five thousand dollars annually from
• 38:36
  Speaker 5: our scholarship fund. And we have about seventeen they are
• 38:40
  Speaker 5: in high school now. We're going to have elect graduates
• 38:44
  Speaker 5: this year and the following year eight graduates. So I
• 38:52
  Speaker 5: spent a lot of time with that.
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: Well I now know why Amy is probably thinking I
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: did it a good thing by cold calling him and
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: asking him to come lecture to these students, because he
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: already had an impact and a passion with students.
• 39:10
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 39:11
  Speaker 6: Well, it's interesting because that's exactly what I thought. I
• 39:14
  Speaker 6: thought he inspired me so much. Imagine what he could
• 39:19
  Speaker 6: do for these high school students who obviously had an
• 39:22
  Speaker 6: interest in the law because they were taking my class
• 39:25
  Speaker 6: and other students showed up to outside of the class.
• 39:29
  Speaker 6: But yeah, I just thought he's he's he knows how
• 39:33
  Speaker 6: to inspire people with his words, and you know, his stories,
• 39:38
  Speaker 6: they're fascinating.
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: And I have to ask, because I'm a very sappy person,
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: I want to know when you were hearing these stories
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: from him, how often did you have to hold back
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: those moments of tears or just the goosebumps about I mean,
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: his parents did a great job using the kids to all,
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: you know, give back.
• 40:05
  Speaker 6: Yeah, the goose bumps definitely, especially with the murder cases,
• 40:12
  Speaker 6: the Black Widow in particular, when he spoke of her,
• 40:16
  Speaker 6: it was terrifying. Really, I said, oh my gosh, how
• 40:20
  Speaker 6: am I going to write about this woman who was
• 40:23
  Speaker 6: a serial killer and poisoned her husband's and boyfriends and son.
• 40:28
  Speaker 6: But yeah, all of it was just very fascinating to
• 40:34
  Speaker 6: the heart. I think when I felt the most emotion, though,
• 40:40
  Speaker 6: was when I actually wrote the stories. When I was
• 40:43
  Speaker 6: writing his childhood.
• 40:46
  Speaker 5: You know how he went.
• 40:46
  Speaker 6: Out into the field when Aunt Lucille told him to
• 40:49
  Speaker 6: get three switches when he had to get punished, and
• 40:52
  Speaker 6: the psychological effect it had walking those thirty feet to
• 40:57
  Speaker 6: the hedges and walking back, like writing about it when
• 41:00
  Speaker 6: you're actually writing about it and hearing about it. It
• 41:04
  Speaker 6: all just comes together like a life of its own.
• 41:07
  Speaker 6: So yeah, each each chapter of that book, I can
• 41:12
  Speaker 6: honestly say, stands alone as a story on its own.
• 41:16
  Speaker 6: I believe we didn't do that on purpose, but it
• 41:21
  Speaker 6: just so happens that each chapter is like a short
• 41:24
  Speaker 6: story that comes together as a memoir, true crime memoir.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: So I agree.
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: And I will say, as a child who had to
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: go and pull pick my own switches when I did
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: something naughty, I mean you talk about flashback, it's like, Okay,
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: I remember walking out the front door, walking to the head.
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: You didn't want one that was too thin because then
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: that would really hurt.
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: But you didn't want tooth thick. I mean, it's like
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: brings you back to that.
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: And that's one thing I love about people who are
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: such great storytellers.
• 41:58
  Speaker 6: It's almost the exact similar experience, Judge, very hash that
• 42:02
  Speaker 6: you had.
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: And I was raised in the South, and that just
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: seemed to be the thing to do.
• 42:07
  Speaker 4: You went and picture and switch.
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: Yep, Judge, I saw you lean back and start chuckling
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: when Amy was talking about that story.
• 42:19
  Speaker 5: It leaves an impression on you. Sometimes when they find
• 42:23
  Speaker 5: out they cannot appeal to your intellect. They'll appear to
• 42:28
  Speaker 5: a more tender spot of your body to get the
• 42:33
  Speaker 5: message across.
• 42:35
  Speaker 4: But was the message well received?
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: I can say in my case it was well received,
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: and I learned my lesson very quickly.
• 42:43
  Speaker 5: Mine was well received. Also, I didn't do the same
• 42:48
  Speaker 5: thing twice. Put it that way, particularly with my dad.
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, now you talk about the Black Widow. I'm going
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: to just say that case haunts me but fascinates me
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: at the same time. And I know it's a very
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: notorious case in Florida. I want to know from you, judge,
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: what aspects of that case stands out most to you
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: with legal challenges but also the human impact because that
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: case was insane.
• 43:29
  Speaker 5: You know, I will never forget. I was in the
• 43:32
  Speaker 5: State Attorney's office. I was head of the Criminal in
• 43:38
  Speaker 5: Take division, where I also tried the major homicide cases,
• 43:43
  Speaker 5: and one of my crack investigators came to me and
• 43:49
  Speaker 5: said that he had received the call from Ted Geronimo,
• 43:54
  Speaker 5: who was an investigator with the Pensacola Police Department. He
• 43:59
  Speaker 5: laid out one about the attempted murder of John Gentry,
• 44:07
  Speaker 5: not once, but twice, the fact that they had uncovered
• 44:17
  Speaker 5: the death of Bobby Jo Marris, which was in Trinidad, Colorado,
• 44:22
  Speaker 5: and he suggested that we may want to look into
• 44:28
  Speaker 5: Sergeant James good Year's case. So I gave Dusty the
• 44:35
  Speaker 5: green light. We contacted and he found that they had
• 44:40
  Speaker 5: parafferin blocks of sorry for good Year's tissues up in Washington,
• 44:46
  Speaker 5: d C. He sent those off. It took a couple
• 44:51
  Speaker 5: of months to get the lab results back and it
• 44:56
  Speaker 5: indicated that those tissues contain arsenic but it was not
• 45:02
  Speaker 5: enough to basic case. So I filed a petition for exhumation,
• 45:13
  Speaker 5: and we had to exhume the body of Sergeant good Year.
• 45:25
  Speaker 5: He had been in the ground for a little bit
• 45:28
  Speaker 5: more than ten years, and that was a very unpleasant
• 45:38
  Speaker 5: but necessary thing to do, and we did that. We
• 45:45
  Speaker 5: got the results back from doing analysis of his organs,
• 45:50
  Speaker 5: hair and nails, etc. That he died as a result
• 45:55
  Speaker 5: of arsenic poison. And then witnesses were scattered all over
• 46:03
  Speaker 5: the United States and we had to run those down.
• 46:08
  Speaker 5: And as you peel back that onion and you received
• 46:13
  Speaker 5: information on what she did to her fiance, John Gentra
• 46:18
  Speaker 5: in Pensacola, what she did to her son, and those
• 46:24
  Speaker 5: trials were going on then and the exhumation of Bobby
• 46:32
  Speaker 5: Joe Marris, who died in Trinidad, but he was buried
• 46:36
  Speaker 5: in brutin, Alabama. You began to see the personification of evil.
• 46:47
  Speaker 5: And the thing that I learned which I did not know,
• 46:53
  Speaker 5: was watching someone die of arsenic cousne. It is a
• 47:01
  Speaker 5: very unpleasant experience. And Miss Beverly, one of the witness, said,
• 47:15
  Speaker 5: you know, Judy told her that you got to have
• 47:17
  Speaker 5: a very strong stomach to watch someone slowly die. They hallucinate,
• 47:28
  Speaker 5: they vomit endlessly, they cry out in pain, and their
• 47:38
  Speaker 5: organs began to shut down. And then when I learned
• 47:46
  Speaker 5: more about she tried to kill her own son by
• 47:51
  Speaker 5: arsenic but only gave him enough to basically kill the
• 47:58
  Speaker 5: central nervous system. And then, like the dutiful mother, she
• 48:03
  Speaker 5: went down and got him out of the VA hospital
• 48:06
  Speaker 5: Saint Petersburg, took him back to Pensacola. And what does
• 48:12
  Speaker 5: she do. She takes him fishing in a canoe with
• 48:18
  Speaker 5: eighteen pounds of braces, with no life jacket, and mysteriously
• 48:25
  Speaker 5: the canoe tips over. He things like a rock for
• 48:30
  Speaker 5: someone that can watch her husband die, and remember this,
• 48:35
  Speaker 5: and one of the things that let me know how
• 48:37
  Speaker 5: cold and calculated she was. Well, her husband was away,
• 48:43
  Speaker 5: she started dealing with a gentleman who was in the
• 48:47
  Speaker 5: auto business and would come to Orlando sometime to the auction,
• 48:51
  Speaker 5: and they became lovers. She invited that man to husband's funeral,
• 49:04
  Speaker 5: and you know, that night, after she had buried him,
• 49:11
  Speaker 5: before the soul had really settled in his grave, she
• 49:19
  Speaker 5: left and spent the night with that gentleman. And you
• 49:25
  Speaker 5: asked yourself, what type of human being would do something that,
• 49:32
  Speaker 5: you know, what type of human being would just pray
• 49:37
  Speaker 5: on men, even her own son cap And that's why
• 49:44
  Speaker 5: the name the Black Widow stuck to her. And I
• 49:51
  Speaker 5: happened to be in her presence when she was transported here,
• 49:56
  Speaker 5: and we transported her to Orange County Jail and booked
• 50:00
  Speaker 5: her in. All I can remember was she was in
• 50:05
  Speaker 5: the back seat, handcuffed with one of the secretaries in
• 50:13
  Speaker 5: my office. Myself and my investigator were in the front seat,
• 50:19
  Speaker 5: and even though we had the air conditioned on because
• 50:22
  Speaker 5: it was I think it was August, it was warm.
• 50:27
  Speaker 5: But once she got in that car, there was a
• 50:33
  Speaker 5: coldness about her that just brought a very uneasy feeling
• 50:42
  Speaker 5: to me. I mean a chill to me. I've never
• 50:46
  Speaker 5: had that feeling before nor after that. And just to
• 50:56
  Speaker 5: live through that and see and put all those cases,
• 51:02
  Speaker 5: separate deaths together and present them in court. And you know,
• 51:12
  Speaker 5: those were what was known as William's rule evidence or
• 51:15
  Speaker 5: similar fact evidence as it is called today. You have
• 51:19
  Speaker 5: to be very careful about that. You can't make it
• 51:23
  Speaker 5: a feature. But it goes to the planet and to
• 51:27
  Speaker 5: the motive behind it and the similarities. So she was
• 51:35
  Speaker 5: the most diabolical individual who only cared about herself and
• 51:46
  Speaker 5: did not value life at all. You know, she treated
• 51:51
  Speaker 5: those people who she claimed she loved just like insects.
• 51:56
  Speaker 5: When she basically went to the local grocery story and
• 52:00
  Speaker 5: pointed out to Mary Beverly, you can buy that is here,
• 52:06
  Speaker 5: this is the Pauson and give it to him, stuff
• 52:10
  Speaker 5: that you use to kill rats and other parasites. And
• 52:16
  Speaker 5: she treated men like parasites.
• 52:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: Now, if I think I'm correct here, you actually attended
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: the execution of her, correct, Yes, I did. How did
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: that affect your thoughts or feelings about the death penalty?
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: Did it deter it? Did it change you anyway? From
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: making that decision?
• 52:44
  Speaker 5: You know, I had asked for the death penalty. As
• 52:46
  Speaker 5: a prosecutor and as a judge, I think I had
• 52:51
  Speaker 5: sentenced someone to death by that time, and I had
• 52:57
  Speaker 5: taken law students and clerks to visit death row. I
• 53:03
  Speaker 5: even set an old party in that chair. You know,
• 53:11
  Speaker 5: I walked down death row and saw some of the
• 53:15
  Speaker 5: people that I put on death row. They were surprised
• 53:18
  Speaker 5: to see me. And I had heard about, you know,
• 53:27
  Speaker 5: defense lawyers talking about how awfo it was, and that
• 53:36
  Speaker 5: particular case. We did the investigation. I was involved in
• 53:39
  Speaker 5: it from beginning to end. You know, we didn't get
• 53:42
  Speaker 5: a package that was gift wrapped by a law enforcement agency.
• 53:47
  Speaker 5: Myself and my investigator, we did the whole thing, from
• 53:52
  Speaker 5: soup to nuts, and it was something that we wanted
• 53:56
  Speaker 5: to finish. If anybody deserved to die in Florida's electric
• 54:04
  Speaker 5: chair at the time, it was her, and I was
• 54:14
  Speaker 5: less than three feet away from her. I was on
• 54:18
  Speaker 5: the front row with mister Goodyear's brother in law and
• 54:27
  Speaker 5: with my investigator. I was sitting in the middle. And
• 54:37
  Speaker 5: it was very regimented, and it was something that was
• 54:51
  Speaker 5: a lot less cruel and instantaneous than what she had done.
• 55:01
  Speaker 5: And other murderers had done to their victims.
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because poisoning, Like you said, poisoning people is not
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: an easy way to go.
• 55:23
  Speaker 5: Now. I mean, you know, if you've been around a
• 55:26
  Speaker 5: person that is vomiting, that's not a pleasant thing to watch.
• 55:33
  Speaker 5: But to constantly watch someone do that and you're feeding
• 55:38
  Speaker 5: them and telling them to eat more, Yeah, and then
• 55:43
  Speaker 5: you watch them hallucinate. I mean he was seeing things grabbing,
• 55:50
  Speaker 5: attempting to grab imaginary rabbits, and you're suffering that way,
• 55:58
  Speaker 5: you're trying to get better. And like she told John
• 56:03
  Speaker 5: Gentry when she was giving him parafmalid and vitamin seek
• 56:10
  Speaker 5: capsules when he was feeling first started taking him and
• 56:13
  Speaker 5: making him sick, her solution was double adults.
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: I mean that says a lot about a person who
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: could watch it after they did it to them. I
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: mean that, like you said, diabolical. I'm not even sure
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: if that's a strong enough word in my word selection.
• 56:34
  Speaker 4: Because I.
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: Can't even watch an animal suffer, much less a human
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: suffer and do it to them.
• 56:47
  Speaker 5: Judy Buynano was the personification of evil. And she was
• 56:58
  Speaker 5: just evil. I know of no other way to describe her. Yeah,
• 57:09
  Speaker 5: And there was one more case that just couldn't prove it.
• 57:13
  Speaker 5: But there was one more guy that she was involved
• 57:18
  Speaker 5: in that died under mysterious circumstances.
• 57:26
  Speaker 3: I guess we shouldn't say that that means she probably
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: did it because there needs to be evidence, right, but.
• 57:35
  Speaker 4: Probably did well.
• 57:38
  Speaker 5: The case was a strong circumstantial case. She made a
• 57:43
  Speaker 5: statement to Mary Beverley that she killed the husband. She
• 57:49
  Speaker 5: even mentioned to Bobby jo Marrice's mom that she also
• 57:55
  Speaker 5: killed the husband. And when you take in consideration the
• 58:04
  Speaker 5: fact that, uh, she tried to poise, she poised her husband,
• 58:12
  Speaker 5: she paused Bobby Joe Marris. Uh, she poisoned her son.
• 58:24
  Speaker 6: Uh.
• 58:25
  Speaker 4: What was her reasoning was that? Ever? Was it for
• 58:28
  Speaker 4: life insurance?
• 58:31
  Speaker 5: It was assurance? It was you know, yeah, she took
• 58:36
  Speaker 5: that life insurance. Remember she had she had the g
• 58:41
  Speaker 5: I insurance on her husband, but she got smart and
• 58:44
  Speaker 5: got more life insurance on the rest. But when you
• 58:49
  Speaker 5: go back and you look at her background, uh, you know,
• 58:53
  Speaker 5: she basically was abused as a child, so she had
• 58:58
  Speaker 5: some of that scar tissue there. But I don't care
• 59:03
  Speaker 5: how abuse you are ah to kill your own son,
• 59:12
  Speaker 5: your own flesh and blood, because he was a little
• 59:17
  Speaker 5: different Yeah, you know what type of human being is that?
• 59:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: I not human to some degree. In my book, I'm
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: sure jt agrees I because there's a lot of people
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: who are abused and they do not grow up to
• 59:43
  Speaker 3: kill people.
• 59:47
  Speaker 4: They don't.
• 59:48
  Speaker 3: Well talking about moms who do that, I guess that
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: leads us into I think the headline is the most
• 59:56
  Speaker 3: hated woman in America or the most hated mom in America,
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 3: Miss Casey Anthony. The biggest question I have about that
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 3: case was how did you pick a jury or out?
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: What were the difficulties with picking a jury when everybody
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: across the country knew of this case? How I mean,
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 3: I just of like, how.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 5: Well, it was not easy? Number one, it was a
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 5: very difficult process. Uh. It took us eleven days to
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 5: select a jury. The key is not whether or not
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 5: they had not heard about the case. The question was
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 5: whether or not you had formed any opinions concerned her
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 5: guildah innocence. And if you formed opinion that she may
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 5: be guilty, could you set aside that opinion and decide
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 5: the case only upon the evidence that will be presented
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 5: in the courtroom as applied the law. Some people can
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 5: do that. Some people couldn't do it. It was surprising that
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 5: there were a couple of jurors I think one or
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 5: two that hadn't heard about the case because they didn't
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 5: read newspapers or watch TV. Oh but once they answered
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 5: the magic question that they could set it aside and
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 5: it's not a week, I think I can. Maybe I can,
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 5: but firmly said that, you know, we were able to
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 5: get twelve plus five alternates. I was concerned about not
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 5: having more than five alternates because all the research I
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 5: had done it at that time indicated that in major
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 5: cases like that, you lost a juror every week. We
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 5: lost no jurors doing that case, non zero.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 4: What do you think? Why do you think that is?
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 5: Well? Number one, we did our research and we looked
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 5: at the reasons why people lost jurors. Jurors are when
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 5: they's a questioned, basically treated more like prisons than anything else.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 5: So we Number one, it started with their accommodations. We
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 5: got them at the Rosen Shingle Creek Resort. Oh okay.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 5: Harris Rosen, who's a great community partner, gave us the
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 5: government rate.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 4: Oh wow, Okay.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 5: The second factor was that back during then there were
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 5: certain TV stations that did not carry the news, so
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 5: we reprogrammed all of their televisions only to get those channels.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 5: But we had tomorrow, I mean, we had to monitor those.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 5: The second thing was that we had a suite which
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 5: we used as a evening or day room where they
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 5: could come in on the supervision of court deputies and
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 5: access their emails and use their telephones. Another thing that
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 5: we did was we had about seventy five DVD movies
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 5: and they list of books that we made available. The
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 5: hotel closed down the exercise. Yeah, they cut the television
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 5: off and only allowed access to jurors between five and
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 5: seven am. They also the hotel had three swimming pools.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 5: They shut down one swimming pool during select hours so
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 5: they could swim. We also made arrangements to take them
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 5: to various different restaurants, private rooms to eat at night.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 5: We even took them to Arabian Nights and a booth
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 5: where they could watch the Knight's jost and put on
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 5: a show. They were from the Tampa Bay Area BrightHouse
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 5: which is now known as Spectrum. We had them out
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 5: at their corporate headquarters in a special room where they
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 5: could watch the hockey game and we fed them. We
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 5: took them out to watch fireworks one night. And then
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 5: the most unique thing was I decided to make I
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 5: made the decision to work a half of day on Saturday.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 5: I was always talking by my parents that idle time
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 5: is the devil's workshop, and so they worked behalf a day.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 5: We started at nine ended at one. But we also
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 5: had time for them to have visitors on Saturday evening
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 5: and the visitors could go back to their rooms with them.
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 5: Visitors were screened. They had to sign forms agreeing not
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 5: to discuss the case with them or any questions, and
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 5: a number of them took advantage of that. The visitors
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 5: had to be out by midnight, so most of them
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 5: had visitors starting between three and five and they would
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 5: stay untill midnight. We had what was known as a
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 5: public run where people from court administration. They would get
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 5: their grocery lists and whatever they wanted to have drinks
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 5: or whatever, and they would go shop for them and
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 5: have it back in their rooms. We took care of
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 5: their religious needs on their particular their worship. We also
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 5: had appointments for them for the ladies to get their
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 5: hair done and men to get haircuts. Wow and every
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 5: afternoon during our evening afternoon recess. Uh. There was a
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 5: lady called it a dessert lady who would bring fabulous
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 5: different desserts for them.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 4: Sign me up for that one.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 5: I stopped their jury room out of my own pocket
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 5: with coffee, soft drinks and snacks, uh and uh. While
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 5: sometime we would order their lunch in to keep to
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 5: break it up. A couple of times for lunch, they
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 5: were taking the various places for lunch outside of the courthouse.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 5: So those were the things that made it easier for
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 5: them not to get stir crazed and feel like they
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 5: were prisoners.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 3: I I'm like you thought outside of the box. And
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 3: I've often heard I know someone who just sat on
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 3: a jury in New York and he was like, I
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 3: am so glad that they didn't sequestro us because I
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 3: can't imagine being locked in Motel six and eating McDonald's
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 3: every day for two weeks.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 4: He goes, I can't do it.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 3: And you just knocked it way out of the park
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 3: by treating them, you basically showed them that you were
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 3: grateful for the service that they were doing, because what
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 3: they had to do was not easy.
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 5: God was. It was a great deal of playing in
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 5: every detail. We had the mad staff sign non disclosure agreements.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 5: The deputies collected their fresh out of their rooms, and
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 5: they were secretly disposed of whatever was in there.
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 3: I'm speechless. And that doesn't happen often. GT will tell you,
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 3: and these people will tell you, that doesn't happen. The
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 3: fact that a judge a thought so intricately about the people.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 3: Because I'm in HR by day and my tagline is
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 3: It's all about the people. You just took that way
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 3: above any bar I've ever set, because you took care
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 3: I mean hair, You got their hair done. You know
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 3: their haircut. Amy, you probably feel me. I mean, can
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 3: you imagine how are you going to get your hair cut?
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 3: Your hair done?
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 4: You can't go anywhere, you can't see your kids.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 6: No, I would not want to have been one of
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 6: those jurors, but I would tell you this that if
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 6: I had to be a jury or a jur on
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 6: any case, the Casey Anthony case would certainly have been
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 6: one of the most fascinatings to probably sit on.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I also in my mind it had
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 3: to help with the mental struggles they had from hearing
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 3: the case every day, you know, just watching the case took,
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 3: you know, an emotional toll on me. So I can
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 3: imagine sitting there in person.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 5: We even had one juror that had some dental issues
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 5: and I had pre arranged to have doctor's own stand
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 5: by various specialties. Uh so, Uh, this juror, when we
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 5: recess for lunch at noon, was taken by two deputies
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 5: to this general office where they were waiting for her,
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 5: waiting for her, and she they took care of her
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 5: dinner needs, not once, but twice. She was back by
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 5: the time we restarted court. And guess what. The dentists
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 5: did not charge.
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 3: Oh wow, there are good medical professionals out there that
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 3: do not charge now.
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 5: And uh, you know, we had a couple of private
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 5: clubs that opened their private dining rooms up we remember,
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 5: remember only type clubs to feed them. One was in
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 5: the middle of downtown Orlando, the Citrus Club, and another
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 5: one was the University Club. It was a community effort
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 5: that people pitched in and we tried to make them
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 5: as comfortable as possible, and so did all of their needs.
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's amazing. Yeah, And you know it's so
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: important because that case truly drew national international attention in
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 2: terms of looking back, what do you think were some
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: of the more pivotal points in the trial that influenced
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: the jury's decision ultimately.
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 5: Well, there were a number of things. And let me
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 5: start off with this. You have a car, and it's
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 5: a used car, and each one of those cars have
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 5: the same blemish to it, same little nicks, same little dents.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 5: And uh, you have two people that are trying to
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 5: sell you this car with the blemishes, the knicks, and
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 5: the dents. Who are you gonna buy the car? Is
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 5: it gonna be from someone that you kind of like
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 5: the most, or is it gonna be from someone who
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 5: appears rough around the edges, someone who's edgy, someone who
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 5: can appear to be mean and nasty. Jose Bias, while
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 5: at the time he was not a student of the
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 5: code of evidence, prepared a great case, but he did
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 5: something that most great football coaches do. He made adjustments
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 5: in that trial. When you get twelve people in that box,
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 5: you have to be able to pivot and present a
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 5: case that will appeal to them. Some people like sweet tea,
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 5: some people don't like sweet tea. Some people like strawberries,
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 5: some people don't like strawberries. Bayez was able to do that,
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 5: and while the state had a very strong and propelling case,
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 5: he threw that thing around called reasonable doubt. Another major
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 5: thing to me, there is the Simon's case that's being
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 5: it's going to be tried this week in Georgia, and
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 5: the case has several parallels with the Anthony case. Young mother,
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 5: both toddlers. Yes, but if you look at that indictment
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 5: versus the Anthony indictment, they basically put it's unknown how
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 5: the child died. One of the major things I think was,
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 5: I'm charged with the responsibility in any case of giving
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 5: the standard jury instructions. If you want special instructions dealing
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 5: with particular issues in your case, that's incumbent upon the
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 5: parties to draft and present. My background as a prosecutor
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 5: and looking at this case, I just knew that the
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 5: state would request, especially in jury instruction that they did
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 5: not have to prove how she died. It was not
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 5: an element of the crime, right, they did not, matter
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 5: of fact, to save time, because I know lawyers can't
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 5: agree on anything. I had gone in, did the research,
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 5: and I had drafted especially jury instruction. They didn't ask
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 5: for it. Another thing I think the state was very
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 5: overconfident because they have strong case, but they did not
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 5: argue doing close an argument. We don't believe that we
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 5: proved the crime of murder in the first degree. This
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 5: is why we have proved second degree murder and aggravated manslaughter.
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 5: They didn't do that. And uh. And the reason I
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 5: bring that up was there was one juror who said,
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 5: who only spoke that the reason she did not find
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 5: Casey Anthony guilty was because the state could not prove
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 5: how she died.
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 3: Were you shocked that they didn't? Were you shocked that
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 3: they didn't put in those special instructions.
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 5: I was surprised at the time. Yet I mean, you
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 5: know I took time craft and instruction. Yeah, because I
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 5: didn't want to lose time with them arguing about in
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 5: an instruction. This is the instruction I drafted at afro
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 5: roof nexed the law. Uh, and I cited the case
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 5: law in there, and you know as a basis, so
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 5: I was prepared to give it. It wasn't my role
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 5: to insert myself indicates Uh. Jose Bias was a gentleman
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 5: throughout the trial. He always greeted the jurors with a smile.
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 5: On the other hand, you had one of the prosecutors,
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 5: Jeff Ashton, who was one of my former colleagues at
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 5: the State Attorney's Office. And Jeff is a hell of
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 5: a lawyer, but sometimes Jeff's personality, you know, when he
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 5: would object, he would object with anger, like a rocket
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 5: going off. Are you shooting the cannon off? Uh? And
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 5: I don't think that worked well with this jury.
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, he didn't play well to them, did he.
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 5: No, he did, and you know Bias did. And you
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 5: can say what you want to say, but when you
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 5: look across, which the jurors did, and they were looking
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 5: directly at Casey Anthony, she looked quite innocent mm hmm, youthful,
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 5: And you can say what I'm gonna say, but people
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 5: will sometimes say, uh, you know, she doesn't. They threw
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 5: enough smoke mirrors to create this thing of reasonable doubt.
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 5: And you know, one of the other things I think
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 5: they did not do. They put the reference in about
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 5: George being work, but they didn't have anybody to come
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 5: in and explain it, to verify that he was in
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 5: fact at work, and that it was impossible for George
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 5: to come back home, fish her out of the pool
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 5: and then dump her like trash and you know, and
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 5: one of the things that caused George's credibility problem is
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 5: the young lady came in and testified that she had
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 5: an affair with George, that he made certain statements that
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 5: one could interpret that he had unclean hands, and they
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 5: weren't able to counter that. So once you start adding
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 5: a factor at the factor, you know, it gave them
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 5: a chance. And I've learned through my many years that
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 5: anything is possible. The type of cases when I was
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 5: a prosecutor that scared me to death was the one
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 5: where I had them on all fours and I knew
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 5: that it was no way but their factors. And I'm
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 5: gonna tell you what made me think about that. I
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 5: tried to robb the case. They were caught red handed.
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 5: The proceeds from the robbery was caught in the car.
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 5: The store clerk and two witnesses identified the person and
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 5: they were out for six hours because of one juror.
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 5: And this one juror was getting on the elevator and
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 5: one of the lawyers got on the elevator winner and
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 5: she said, I'm glad somebody is own here. I've been
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 5: trying to go up to the fourth floor for the
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 5: last ten minutes and the elevator won't go up there. Well,
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 5: guess what. She was in the basement of the courthouse
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 5: and kept pacing ground pressing above a ground so it
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 5: wasn't going anywhere. And he said he knew he had
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 5: to have her. So I learned many years ago jurors,
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 5: most of the time, not all of the time, but
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 5: the majority of the time see things very differently from
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 5: what lawyers and judges do.
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they have a different And go ahead, Terry, I
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 3: was gonna say, they just have a different perspective.
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean, you know, obviously Casey Anthony is
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 2: just one of the many high profile cases that you've
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: presided over. Just kind of turning focus to Amy, Amy,
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 2: how did you decide which cases to kind of focus
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: on in the book?
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 6: Well, we knew Casey Anthony was definitely going to be
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 6: one that was that was no brainer. The Black Widow
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 6: was definitely going to be the other one because Judge
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 6: Perry did something very interesting in that he compared the
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 6: Black Widow to Casey Anthony.
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 5: And why that Black Widow.
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 6: Was a clear death penalty case and Casey was not,
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 6: because the two were very similar in how they liked
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 6: the limelight. They were charming, the used men, even though
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 6: Casey wasn't to the extent of the Black Widow. So
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 6: and and it obviously was a very horrifying story that had,
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 6: you know, the trauma effect. And so those two were
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 6: a definite. And then you know, I had seen I
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 6: didn't know what other cases to really put in there,
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 6: but I had watched Judge Perry on an interview while
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 6: I was doing some research into what cases should we use,
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 6: and he had spoken about hans bro Kirk Hansbrough, who
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 6: robbed a insurance company and stabbed the manager there to
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 6: death and stomped her on the chest. He had talked
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 6: about that case, and he had talked about Jerry Carell
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 6: with the interviewer. And Jerry Carell was the murderer who
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 6: slayed his ex wife, his ex mother in law, his
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 6: five year old daughter, all in their Orlando home and
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 6: then waited for the ex sister in law to come
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 6: home and then he killed her. It was a stabbing spree.
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 6: So I looked up those two cases and I thought,
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 6: you know, this is very interesting. I think we should
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 6: use these because these were his prosecutor days. And then
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 6: get into his death penalty cases. After doing those cases
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 6: as well as another one Joe of Alan Martyr who
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 6: abducted a young woman on the side of the street
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 6: and then took her to a field and raped and
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 6: battered and stabbed her. So yeah, and then with his
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 6: death penalty cases, he judge Ferry was very easy. He said,
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 6: I could you know, we can choose whichever one we
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 6: wanted to, whichever one we thought would work, So I couldn't.
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 6: I just researched them. They were all fascinating. I really
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 6: didn't know which one to pick, but I just picked
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 6: the ones that resonated. I wanted to put domestic violence
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 6: in there because it's it's a real thing. So I
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 6: like the Dusty Spencer case for that reason. I talked
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 6: about narcissists, the difference between narcissism, sociopath and psychopaths, and
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 6: those are terms that are very loosely used nowadays and
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 6: very common, and a lot of people don't know what
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 6: it means, and what gaslighting means, and all these different terms.
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 6: So I thought that the Dusty Spencer, where he murdered
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 6: his wife, encompassed a lot of those aspects. And there's plenty.
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 6: There's plenty of other murder cases I could write about
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 6: with Judge Perry.
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 2: For better or worse right, Yes, yeah, oh Terry, you're muted. However,
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 2: what you had to say was.
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 3: I am I was gonna say. I have to ask
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 3: because even as just a person who covers true crime
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 3: and spends a lot of time and that realm, how
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 3: did you protect your mental health when seeing this in
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 3: hearing and seeing the actual evidence daily for so many years.
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 5: One of the things I learned from my dad, and
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 5: which was re emphasized by my mom, was to be
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 5: able to compartmentalize these things while I worked a great
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 5: deal and I had a home office all those years.
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 5: I never discussed my cases on my work with my family.
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 5: My dad never talked with me about his experiences with
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 5: the police department until I had completed law school. And
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 5: you know, the hell that he went through is that
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 5: they went through as the first black police officers. And
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 5: I asked him why, and he told me then that
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 5: if I would have told you those things back then,
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 5: you would have probably become bitter. You would have had
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 5: a chip on your shoulder, and it would have not
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 5: serve you well. While you knew that there were good
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 5: people and bad people. You grew up in segregation and
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 5: all those things. My dad felt that bitterness had no place,
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 5: that bitterness could sometimes be used as a crutch not
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 5: to succeed. So you know, I separated those things, and
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 5: when I closed whatever work I had at home, I
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 5: didn't discuss it because if you constantly that twenty four
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 5: seven and it becomes a part of your life, it
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 5: will control you. And I didn't want that. I didn't
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 5: want to have anything that controlled me. Did I have
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 5: up and down moments of some of the things that
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 5: I saw, Yes, Did I dwell on it? No? You know,
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 5: life is too short to let anything cause you to hate,
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 5: to have ill will. My daddy would often tell me
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 5: he does not know anybody on the face of this
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 5: earth that he would hate so much that he would
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 5: be willing to go to hell for, And that always
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 5: resonated with me. And while there may be people on
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 5: this earth that I don't care for, I'm not gonna
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 5: let my hatred for them consume me, because then you
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 5: give them control over you. And when people can control you,
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 5: even indirectly, that gives them too much power over you.
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 5: So that's why I separated everything, and you know I
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 5: learned when the task was completed, it was completed.
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 3: I'm going to just say that's some helpful information JT.
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 3: For us that live in this world, that we might
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 3: do a little better at compartmentalizing this, because I know
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 3: we do live in it a lot of times, many
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 3: hours of the day. But I think that's some good
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 3: advice for us. Now, you did a case and I
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 3: do not know how to say his last name, but
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 3: it's Thomas Goodinis.
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 5: I think Thomas Lee condeenus the Downtown murderer.
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 3: It was horrific and awful. I mean, how did you
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 3: manage that? Because just reading about it, I found myself
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 3: with a lot of feels, a lot of feelings around it.
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 5: Well, Wow, Cadenas was a horrific murder where he stabbed
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 5: and uh raped this young lady after she had died
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 5: and took a survey steak and then impelled it in
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 5: her body between her private parts. Nothing can compare with
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 5: Jerry Correll and that crime scene. We kept that crime
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 5: scene for close to two months, myself and my cold
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 5: prosecutor Ray Sharp. Every afternoon at three o'clock we would
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 5: go to that house. We got on our hands and
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 5: knees and went over every inch of that house. We
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 5: had them go in and take out their drains and
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 5: the sinks found blood. Even though we didn't have DNA,
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 5: we were able to type it to Jeri Correll. We
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 5: even had them got the tub in the washing machine,
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 5: found traces of blood where he went in and tried
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 5: to wash his clothes. Wow, blood had sort of disappeared
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 5: in the walls, and we asked mister Fisher. We used
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 5: to call him dog Fisher. He created a substance that
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 5: would take blood that he had wiped off the walls,
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 5: attempted to wipe off that was invisible and made it
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 5: invisible using a substance called Lumanov. Every inch of that
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 5: house we went over, took apart baseboards, found specs of
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 5: dried blood back there. That entire house was like a
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 5: blood bath. And when you have someone that stabs their
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 5: own door in excess of twenty times, stabs his wife
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 5: ex wifeever in excess of twenty one times, and then
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 5: at the end, why she is dead. And he had
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 5: took a stab from her chest all the way down
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 5: to her stomach, and then he took a pillow and
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 5: sexually assaulted her after she was dead. And then Mary
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 5: lou Hines the way he butchered her, his ex mother
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 5: in law, and then he waited several hours for his
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 5: ex sister in law to come home and he murdered her.
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 5: You talk about a bloody crime scene, you talk about
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 5: dismembered bodies. And to look at Tuesday Corral his daughter,
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 5: you know, it just she had so many stab wounds
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 5: on her. Were those crime scene photos were very horrific.
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 5: It showed the cruelty and it showed how those four
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 5: women suffered that night. That was the most horrible crime scene.
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 5: And I've been to crime scenes before, but ever been stabbings,
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 5: but nothing like this, And that was the one crime
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 5: scene took me. Took me a pretty long while. Put
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 5: it back in the box and close it. You know,
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 5: you would leave there at six seven o'clock and go home,
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 5: and you look at your notes to make sure, while
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 5: still fresh in your mind, that you wrote it down correctly,
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 5: because you use your quick version of shorthand. And there
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 5: were nights that it took me a little a while
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 5: to go to sleep, and then after that you have
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 5: to go back and revisit all those crime scene photos.
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 5: So you know, it's very important that you have to
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 5: put it in the box and shut the box and
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 5: move on.
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I have to sit here and say, not
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 3: going to apologize to Thomas, but I confused him, which
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 3: Mary Corral and I was thinking I had those two
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 3: flipped in my mind. So, but I'm not going to
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 3: apologize Thomas because it's not like he was a well Thomas.
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 5: Thomas was not a saint. It was a rare. It
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 5: was a really horrific comicide.
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but it wasn't the mass murder of several people.
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 5: Now, he he did this in an alley way and
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 5: he left her there and came back and inserted you know,
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 5: the land not landscape, but the survey stake. Now, he
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 5: was the only person that showed any emotion when I
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 5: sentenced him to die. He was actually from You could
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 5: see the terror when I read that death order to him.
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 4: But no remorse for what he.
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 3: Did, just for what was going to happen to him.
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 5: I think it my own personal opinion is did he
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 5: have any remorse? No, I think in his own little mind,
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 5: in his own little world, Ah, he saw the horror
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 5: that was going to follow him until that he died.
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well you know, I think I've got I've got
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 2: three more questions, Amy. The first one that I have is,
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 2: what do you hope that readers take away from the book,
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 2: especially when it comes to understanding the complexities of high
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 2: profile trials and the role of a judge.
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 6: I think there's a lot that readers can take away
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 6: from the book. In terms of your question, I would
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 6: hope that readers would be have more of an open
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 6: mind about the death penalty in terms of how it
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 6: can work for certain murderers and how evil really does
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 6: exist out there. And you know, I think Judge Perry
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 6: does a great job discussing the difference between life and
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 6: the death penalty, the electric chair, the lethal injection. I
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 6: think overall, just an education about the criminal justice system,
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 6: the aggravating factors, the mitigating factors, just how it basically works.
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 6: I had a better understanding after writing the book. I
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 6: didn't know so much before that, but so I think
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 6: that's one takeaway from it for sure. And also to
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 6: understand the role judges have, you know, especially capital murder
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 6: judges that have to take on that responsibility of deciding
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 6: whether someone should live or die because of their crimes.
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 6: I just think that's fascinating to get it from a
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 6: judge's perspective, it was very unique.
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 2: So yeah, absolutely, I mean, I think this is a
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 2: book that folks need to read because they need to
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 2: see all the sides and very rarely do you get
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 2: to see the side of the judge. Do you and
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 2: Judge Perry have any plans to collaborate again? Are there
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 2: any projects that you're working on.
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 6: Currently? I'm not writing anything right now. I'm a divorce attorney.
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 3: So that's its own that's its own true crime story
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 3: right there, right exactly.
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 6: Of course I love to write. I'll always write another book,
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 6: you know, But Judge Perry may have an idea, right Judge.
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 5: We've briefly talked about and I shared this before you
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 5: got on the line, Amy about the Black Robe, the
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 5: untold story. It has to be fiction based, but it's
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 5: going to be based on some true stories, and it's
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 5: to protect the guilty, so to speak. It reveals judges
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 5: are rare human beings and what they have to go through.
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 5: You know, people often asked, how did I end up
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 5: with the worst of the worst cases. Some judges would
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 5: come and tell me, could you take this case? Because
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 5: they had difficulties with those type cases. There was a
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 5: judge that had he was on an assignment in certain
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 5: county and all of the homicide cases that stacked up
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 5: because he kept granting continuances because he didn't want to
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 5: deal with them. And I ended up taking over eight
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 5: homicide cases in that county and disposing of all of them.
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 5: And one of those cases was got Mansfield. And you
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 5: will see that judges suffer from the same thing that
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 5: a lot of other people suffer from. And while most
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 5: judges are very conscientious, and we were very blessed to
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 5: have during my time, people who fulfill their oath, but
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 5: they were imperfect human beings trying to be perfect, just
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 5: like I got a perfect human being. But you have
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 5: to learn to abide by your oath. A lot of
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 5: decisions I made personally out and agree with them, but
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 5: I raised my right hand to support, defend, and protect
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 5: the constitution of the State of Florida and of the
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 5: United States of America. If you're going to be true
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 5: to your oath, you have to set aside your personal
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 5: opinions and not have any philosophies. You know, you know,
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 5: for twenty five years on the bench, I learned to
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 5: have no opinions. Your circle of friends become very narrow
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 5: because you learn quite quickly that when you put on
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 5: that black road, people listen and interpret what you say
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 5: very differently, and either chit chat can be your worst enemy.
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 5: So your life is different, Your life is restrained because
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 5: people will judge you about what you say and how
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 5: you act. One of the things you learned in the
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 5: courtroom is that lawyers are just like children. They would
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 5: get away with what you let them get away with.
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 5: You know, when I became a judge, I was I
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 5: learned under judges who were quite strict and they followed
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 5: the rules, and I always ran a no nonsense courtroom.
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 5: I treated everybody the same, but you didn't get a
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 5: chance to slide on the black robe and take my place.
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 5: It was clear in my courtroom that there was they
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 5: weren't judge there. I listened to folks. I gave each side,
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 5: you know, time to say what they had to say,
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 5: and that was it. I didn't permit going back and forth.
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 5: I did not allow personal attacks. So you know, we'll
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 5: probably look at this and talk about it. You know,
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 5: you're talking about twenty five years and work for things,
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 5: so it can be sort of like one of those
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 5: characters in Patterson's movie. Well, you have different characters.
• 1:46:27
  Speaker 4: You do a series, you're going to be our next
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 4: James Patterson.
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 5: I don't know about being the next James Patterson. All
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 5: I can say is we may give it a stand.
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 5: We'll see.
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 2: There you go.
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 6: It would be my honor of it.
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 2: Oh.
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 3: I will sign up to read whatever you put out
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 3: because I am an avid reader. In fact, I'm twenty
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 3: six books behind on what my goal is for the years.
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 2: Well, I had a very small kind of sidestep question. Really,
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 2: I've been covering a lot of a case in Florida,
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 2: and I wonder if you have any thoughts or if
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 2: you can share any thoughts on Sarah Boone and what's
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 2: been going on there. Have you been checking in with this?
• 1:47:29
  Speaker 5: Matter of fact, I have done some commentary for one
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 5: of the local TV stations on the Sarah Boone case,
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 5: and I did one this morning before Jurism.
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 4: Oh oh, we gotta find.
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 5: Those Okay, Fox thirty five, Okay, Star borot Bone is
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 5: a very interesting lady. Oh, she is Holliman Lepty. She's
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 5: gone through some of the best criminal defense attorneys to
• 1:48:07
  Speaker 5: finally the judge basically told her that even though I've
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 5: given you attorney after attorney, it has to stop. You
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 5: have no good reason to discharge this attorney. So you're
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 5: gonna have to represent yourself. And then they finally found
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 5: someone at the ninth hour to represent her. Sir Boom
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 5: wants to be the lawyer, but operate through the person
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 5: who has the bar license. It's going to be a
• 1:48:51
  Speaker 5: very interesting case because she's gonna talk about she suffers
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 5: from post traumatic stress syndrome as a result of being
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 5: an abused quote spouse unquote. Uh, they're gonna be some
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 5: you know, some interesting testimony. Yeah. How do you watch
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 5: and play a game of hide and seek? Zip somebody
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 5: up in suitcase? Yeah, and let them suffocate to death.
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 5: The question is how will she behave in court when
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 5: her lawyer does not take her advice and does not
• 1:49:48
  Speaker 5: ask the questions that she once asked, and she tries
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 5: to insert herself, and then she tries to do something
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 5: that can necessitate a mistrial so she can get a redo.
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 5: Delay always works in the favor of the defendant. The
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 5: longer it takes a case to go to trial, you
• 1:50:16
  Speaker 5: have the following issues. Memories become foggy, m and believe
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 5: it or not. Sometimes witnesses die m and they die unexpectedly,
• 1:50:30
  Speaker 5: so you lose that particular testimony. So she has nothing
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 5: to lose by delayed delayed, delayed delay.
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 2: So have have you had sorry, Have you had a
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 2: chance to read any of the letters that she has
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 2: sent and written? I read a few. Yeah, what would
• 1:50:58
  Speaker 2: you do if you were on the other end of those?
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 5: You know, I've dealt with difficult clients who tried to
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 5: fire lawyers and did fire lawyers, not to the extended
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 5: with Sarah Boone. But my attack was a little different.
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 5: If you didn't have a good reason discharge your lawyer
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 5: under the law, I did not discharge your lawyer. I
• 1:51:26
  Speaker 5: warned you of the consequences of representing yourself. I went
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 5: through the colloquy of you know, I can't help you.
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 5: You know nothing about procedure, you know nothing about the
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 5: rules of evidence, etc. But I would always appoint a
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 5: standby a council because most of them got cold feet.
• 1:51:46
  Speaker 5: I had a capital case. I can see his face now,
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 5: the Disney murder. Huggins. He Friday his lawyer during the
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 5: penalty phase of his death case, and represented itself during
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 5: the penalty phase. Of course, he got a recommendation of
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 5: death and I sentenced him to die. That was a
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 5: very horrific murder. But Sarah Bone is a very unique
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 5: individual who is crazy smart. She's very calculating, and she's
• 1:52:40
  Speaker 5: been able to manipulate the system. And finally now she's
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 5: before the bar justice. The question is will she be
• 1:52:50
  Speaker 5: able to manipulate this and try to cause a mistrial
• 1:52:54
  Speaker 5: when she does not see that things are going the
• 1:52:57
  Speaker 5: way that she wants them to go.
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 2: Right? Oh, my gosh, that's thank you so much for
• 1:53:07
  Speaker 2: commenting on that. I really appreciate it. And I think
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 2: one of the important parts I don't want to put
• 1:53:13
  Speaker 2: words in your mouth is, you know, although you were
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 2: part of some of the most talked about trials in
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 2: Florida's history, and this is this is a loaded question.
• 1:53:22
  Speaker 2: I realized that, especially for like one of the last ones. Uh,
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 2: what do you hope is your legacy in the legal field,
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 2: especially regarding the balance between justice and public expectation, because
• 1:53:34
  Speaker 2: now there is that with social media and broadcasting trials
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 2: and things like that.
• 1:53:42
  Speaker 5: Well, you know, in the case Anthony case, they called
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 5: that the social media your trial of the centry. My legacy.
• 1:53:53
  Speaker 5: If there's a legacy, is what I tried to do
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 5: was leave the system better than what I found it.
• 1:54:07
  Speaker 5: If people can say that I was fair, that I
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 5: was just, and that I showed mercy when appropriate, and
• 1:54:21
  Speaker 5: that I treated people regardless for your station in life fairly,
• 1:54:31
  Speaker 5: then I'm happy, no more, no less. I have always
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 5: been the type of person I never sawt fame. You know,
• 1:54:48
  Speaker 5: as I often tell people, I'm just a simple person
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 5: who grew up in small town, small town Orlando, that
• 1:54:59
  Speaker 5: was blessed with incredible parents, blessed with a community that
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 5: was very supportive that helped mold me into the person
• 1:55:15
  Speaker 5: that I am today. And that I did give something
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 5: back to the community that was so good to me.
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 2: That's that's awesome. I think that's a perfect way to
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 2: kind of hap it off to me.
• 1:55:34
  Speaker 4: I'm like, that is perfect.
• 1:55:38
  Speaker 2: Mm yeah, well, I mean I can say this. We'll
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 2: go ahead, and Terry, I was.
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 3: Gonna I was gonna say what you're gonna say. I
• 1:55:48
  Speaker 3: think we can have you on many many more times
• 1:55:52
  Speaker 3: and be just as fascinated and have so many questions.
• 1:56:00
  Speaker 5: You know, if you look at the cases we gave you,
• 1:56:05
  Speaker 5: what I call the stigeon of their impact. But one
• 1:56:13
  Speaker 5: of the things that we could have done better at,
• 1:56:19
  Speaker 5: but you know you have constraints, as the page numbers,
• 1:56:25
  Speaker 5: is the untold story of the impact of the survivors
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 5: of those people who were murdered.
• 1:56:34
  Speaker 4: That could be a whole other book.
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 5: And the impact on the men and women who investigated
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 5: those cases and the hard work that they did to
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 5: put those cases together. And people always ask me, well,
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 5: you think we should end the death penalty, and I say,
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 5: it's simple to end the death penalty. People need to
• 1:57:06
  Speaker 5: stop murdering people in very heinous and cruel ways, and
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 5: that what someone dies, there's really no concern about the
• 1:57:19
  Speaker 5: person who died. And people often forget that the death
• 1:57:24
  Speaker 5: penalty is reserved for the worst of the worst, not
• 1:57:28
  Speaker 5: for the ordinary homicides and the ordinary first to be murders,
• 1:57:33
  Speaker 5: but the worst of the worst, those individuals that go
• 1:57:38
  Speaker 5: beyond the pal and just brutally take a life which
• 1:57:43
  Speaker 5: causes someone untold suffering. You know, just imagine being stabbed
• 1:57:50
  Speaker 5: to death. You're fighting in each stab wound causes pain,
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 5: and as you fight, you you find that your your
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 5: your life is leaving your body, and that impending doom.
• 1:58:10
  Speaker 5: People tend to forget about that, and that's why the
• 1:58:15
  Speaker 5: death penny should be reserved for the worst of the worst.
• 1:58:21
  Speaker 5: Uh and uh, that's why until we start treating each
• 1:58:28
  Speaker 5: other better, ah, you may see it for a while.
• 1:58:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:58:46
  Speaker 6: H m hmm.
• 1:58:53
  Speaker 2: Well well Terry, uh h. Thank you so much to
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 2: the two of you, uh for coming on Amy, Thank
• 1:59:02
  Speaker 2: you for sharing your talent in the form of this book.
• 1:59:05
  Speaker 2: And I know you do a ton of other things too,
• 1:59:08
  Speaker 2: but dog on it if you do it half as
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 2: well as you write. Wow, just wow.
• 1:59:15
  Speaker 3: Thank you for picking up the phone and cold calling
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 3: him and being tenacious and keep making those calls. I
• 1:59:23
  Speaker 3: try to tell people, I'm like, what's it gonna hurt?
• 1:59:25
  Speaker 3: All they're going to do is say no. So I
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 3: personally appreciate that you've done that because the book's amazing.
• 1:59:36
  Speaker 2: Oh we've got you muted.
• 1:59:37
  Speaker 6: Sorry, I said, that's exactly what I thought. What I
• 1:59:40
  Speaker 6: called him, and I said, the worst that could happen
• 1:59:42
  Speaker 6: is he doesn't answer, he says no. But thank you.
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 4: Now, it's a great book.
• 1:59:51
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 1:59:52
  Speaker 2: Oh sorry, Jason, are we talking to okay? And you
• 1:59:56
  Speaker 2: had a question real quick thoughts on the change for
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 2: the death penalty. It just needs to be a majority
• 2:00:03
  Speaker 2: now versus unanimous. Do you have any thoughts on that?
• 2:00:08
  Speaker 5: Very rarely where you have a jury being unanimous in
• 2:00:13
  Speaker 5: recommending the death unity, and you can debate whether or
• 2:00:20
  Speaker 5: not it's a simple majority or supermajority. But even in
• 2:00:28
  Speaker 5: the Jericho Real case, it was not a unanimous vote
• 2:00:31
  Speaker 5: for death. I think I've had only two cases where
• 2:00:36
  Speaker 5: we're unanimous votes for death. It is very hard for
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 5: a layperson, particularly when someone who's against the death unity
• 2:00:46
  Speaker 5: is seated on the jury. The only thing they have
• 2:00:50
  Speaker 5: to say is that they they can impose it. But
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 5: that's a big leap ask the lay person to say
• 2:01:03
  Speaker 5: that somebody needs to die. So I'm comfortable with uh
• 2:01:10
  Speaker 5: not having it unanimous.
• 2:01:15
  Speaker 2: Okay, all right, well listen, everybody, you need to go
• 2:01:19
  Speaker 2: to the Velvet Hammer book dot com, yes or Amazon,
• 2:01:23
  Speaker 2: whatever works best for you, and check out the book.
• 2:01:27
  Speaker 2: Buy the book, because I promise you you will have
• 2:01:29
  Speaker 2: the same I mean, the feedback that's been coming in
• 2:01:32
  Speaker 2: all night has been fantastic. You will have this same thoughts,
• 2:01:36
  Speaker 2: the same feedback, those same feelings reading the book. That's
• 2:01:40
  Speaker 2: how true to judge Perry and and Amy style of writing. Uh,
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 2: that you'll get that, so check the book out please,
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 2: totally worth a read or two or three.
• 2:01:59
  Speaker 6: I want to say we're working on author website, the
• 2:02:02
  Speaker 6: Velvet Haammer dot com. Not but Amazon, Bursle, good Reads,
• 2:02:09
  Speaker 6: thrift Books. It's it's all over the world online.
• 2:02:13
  Speaker 2: But thank you for saying that, because that is yes,
• 2:02:17
  Speaker 2: that is not yeah, that does not take me to
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 2: where it needs to be.
• 2:02:25
  Speaker 6: I wondle as well. It's going to be on an
• 2:02:28
  Speaker 6: audiobook soon and I think Arnelle Powell is the narrator.
• 2:02:36
  Speaker 6: And it just won a Literary Titan Award and has
• 2:02:41
  Speaker 6: won several five star review badges and a couple of
• 2:02:46
  Speaker 6: other awards.
• 2:02:46
  Speaker 3: But I just want to say that, well desired and
• 2:02:50
  Speaker 3: there's going to be more awards coming because it's it's
• 2:02:53
  Speaker 3: a great book and I read a lot, so I
• 2:02:56
  Speaker 3: can I can feel comfortable saying that because I read
• 2:02:58
  Speaker 3: a lot of books.
• 2:03:00
  Speaker 4: M hm, So right, well, thank you all very much.
• 2:03:09
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yeah, of course, anytime. Feel free. You know,
• 2:03:14
  Speaker 2: we're more than happy to have you anytime, anytime. I
• 2:03:20
  Speaker 2: think that that's going to do it for us tonight,
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 2: Terry sou do you want to sign off? Do you
• 2:03:26
  Speaker 2: want me to go first. What do you want to do?
• 2:03:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, go ahead and sign off because we'll see everybody
• 2:03:30
  Speaker 3: again on Thursday for our normal live stream.
• 2:03:34
  Speaker 2: We will, we will. I also have the transcripts on
• 2:03:37
  Speaker 2: Wednesday night. That's where we read actual documents from court
• 2:03:43
  Speaker 2: get a good picture of what's going on. So a
• 2:03:46
  Speaker 2: lot happened in this week. But as I always end
• 2:03:49
  Speaker 2: the show, take care of yourself, your friends, your family,
• 2:03:53
  Speaker 2: and your community. And don't let anybody doll that sparkle
• 2:03:57
  Speaker 2: and shine on you crazy diamonds shine.
• 2:04:00
  Speaker 3: On And as we all know, I like to say,
• 2:04:04
  Speaker 3: stay safe, watch out for crime, and always enjoy your
• 2:04:09
  Speaker 3: wine time guys, and I will see you on Wednesday
• 2:04:12
  Speaker 3: with Midday Missing where we cover our next missing person cases.
• 2:04:18
  Speaker 2: All right, bye everybody.
• 2:04:19
  Speaker 1: Hi guys, but
• 2:05:03
  Speaker 5: No