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Barry Stagner: Misinterpreting Bible Prophecy Leads To Replacement Theology · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

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  Welcome to World View Matters, discussing controversial issues, discerning current events,
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  defending biblical Christianity.
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  No topic off limits.
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  And now, here's your host, David Firazzo.
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  Hey friends, thank you so much for tuning in and for sharing the podcast.
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  Love it.
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  We're getting out there.
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  Thanks to you.
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  Great guest today again, author and senior pastor of Calvary Central OC in Costa Mesa,
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  California.
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  Barry Stagner, and he's also the host of The Line Up.
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  And I just love this man of God, and I know he's a leader, and I really appreciate his
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  voice.
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  So let's bring him on right now.
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  And we're going to answer a few questions about replacement theology and other things.
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  Very good to see you, brother.
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  Thanks for your time.
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  Good to see you, David.
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  Great to be on with you again.
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  Yeah.
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  Well, thank you for the suggestions.
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  Before we jump into this, we're tweaking this a little bit.
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  I like this question, does misinterpreting Bible prophecy lead to replacement theology
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  and the answer is yes, but a lot of people need that explain.
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  And I think we'll go there in just a little bit.
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  Before we do, let's talk about Amir Sarfati.
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  First of all, he wrote the foreword to your outstanding book that came out earlier this
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  year.
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  It's time of the signs.
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  And it's a chronology of Earth's final events.
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  And Amir Sarfati wrote the foreword, Barry, you recently did a Q&A alive video with Amir.
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  And I watched a good portion of it.
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  And I wanted to get your response.
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  First of all, I want you to tell our audience what you told me before we got on the podcast
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  about October 7 last year that Amir, you were with Amir.
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  But you were talking on this video recently.
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  And Amir was saying something like I'm paraphrasing my family's just so you know guys, he's
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  talking to you, my family's in the bomb shelter and their sirens going off.
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  I may have to step out for a few minutes.
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  That must have been a very real like a moment for you.
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  And for most Americans that don't understand that at all, share your thoughts on that and
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  how just you reacted in that moment.
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  Well, watching this, you know, begin to unfold back on October 7th, we were together in Philadelphia
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  speaking at a conference.
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  And just to see somebody that I've traveled the world with spent countless days and hours
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  with, consider a dear dear friend and brother.
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  And to watch someone feel absolutely helpless, you know, to especially as the head of your
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  home and the father of, you know, the kids, the four kids that they have and certainly husband
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  to his wife, Miriam, you know, it's just incredible to watch somebody who was so far from home
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  and couldn't do anything to fulfill their role as the protector of their family.
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  And there was really an agonizing time and made, you know, what we read more of a reality
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  to watch someone actually physically go through it and all the frustrations that are associated
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  with it.
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  What the viewers didn't see in the Q&A is that prior to the Q&A, when we were sound checking
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  and all that, all of a sudden the mirrors, the eyes got real big and he said, well, that
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  was close.
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  And there was a huge explosion, you know, that rattled the studio.
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  And so that, that's his reality.
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  And then when we get on the air of late, he's been making that announcement that, you know,
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  if he disappears, you know, when the alarm sounds, you have to shelter for 10 minutes and
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  then they'll give the all clear.
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  So he has had to make that mention, as he did on this last Q&A, that, you know, if he
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  disappears, we'll keep going and answering questions, but he'll be in the bomb shelter
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  until they're able to clear out.
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  And, you know, these things are, you know, he shot footage of a helicopter chasing a drone
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  from his backyard.
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  I mean, this, this is a whole different reality for him than simply as we do reading it
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  on websites and hearing comments from others, but it's just, he's actually in the Philippines
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  right now just kind of taking a break and he's got some physical, body cleansing stuff
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  that he does and everything in preparation for the coming year and for his health.
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  And he just really was commenting about needing to get out of there and just get a break,
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  come up for air, so to speak.
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  And it's just, you know, it's something that words can express the heaviness and the
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  constancy of it and just reading it or even hearing somebody, but, you know, he is brother
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  long pastor Michael Lane, was there, we had gone to the Mediterranean and Mike went up
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  to Israel with a mirror and spent, I think, eight days there and, you know, he was commenting
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  off air as well that it just, he couldn't wait to get out of there.
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  It's just all day, every day alarm after alarm after alarm and, you know, some of these
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  alarms David, you've got less than a minute to get the shelter depending on whether it's
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  a rocket or a drone, drones fly a lot slower than rockets, obviously.
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  But yeah, it's just an incredible personal experience for a mirror in his family and
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  rest of Israel.
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  And he's got, is it three children in the military?
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  He's got three, he's got one active, two reservists, they've all been, the two reservists
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  have been called up, he's got one who is his youngest teenage boy, he's got a younger
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  boy, 11 years old, but his youngest of the three teenagers is in Tel Aviv, works in intelligence.
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  And then he's got one in the Navy and then one in the IDF as reservists and they all, the
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  other two got called up while his third son and third teenage son was actually active
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  duties.
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  Yeah, it's, it's, you add that to just the simply continual pounding and, and sounding
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  of sirens and all the other things and it's been a very stressful time for he and Miriam.
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  Yeah.
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  And I want to talk a little briefly about anti-semitism and what's, what's happening
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  now and then we'll transition into replacement theology, which is so important to talk about
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  and we don't do it enough, I don't think.
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  But I want to send people to your YouTube channel, Barry, it's called The Truth About God.
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  So friends, you can look up the truth about God, Barry Stagner on YouTube, also his website
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  outside of his church, BarryStagner.com.
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  So we've been surprised, those of us who, I believe it here to the true biblical worldview
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  and support of Israel, understanding the context of Scripture, especially, I was just
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  reading in Romans 9 this morning, it's, in fact, um, surprised by America and even the
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  church in America and their response to October 7 and the attacks by Hamas and the anti-semitism
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  that's almost accepted in not only our culture, but some churches today, it's confusing,
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  Barry, can you just share your thoughts on that?
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  We'll just then get into replacement theology and why that's so dangerous.
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  Well, David, I think what we're seeing is a move toward the fulfillment of Zechariah 12
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  3 where the whole world is going to view Jerusalem as a burdensome stone and we'll even seek
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  to heave it away, divide the city and the other things we know that are there constant and
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  continual efforts of various groups around the world. But what we're watching, I think,
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  is important to note that, you know, this anti-semitism that's going to be so rampant during
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  the tribulation period is going to develop beforehand. As are many other things that we're
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  watching precursors unfold to that will ultimately be fulfilled during the tribulation and I like
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  to put it like this, David, the tribulation doesn't last long enough for these types of
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  mentalities and attitudes to develop. They have to be in play when the tribulation starts when
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  that guy in Revelation 6, 2, rides on to the world's theme with a covenant and end. So, you know,
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  really breaking this down to the fact that it's spiritual in nature because it doesn't make a
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  lot of sense logically for the world to collectively turn against Jerusalem when there's been a
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  Jewish presence there for some 3,500 years and to have a world, say, well, the Palestinians
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  were there first. When the reality is, there really was no such thing as a Palestinian
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  until Yossir Erafat began to preach that phrase to the masses that they've, you know, been there
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  had a longstanding presence there which they have been in that area for a while. But nowhere near
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  as long as King David and others who have dwelt in that particular region of the world since those
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  days. Well, it's not surprising what we're seeing today, but it's very disappointing, especially
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  for a nation that was founded as America, right? With the Christian worldview, Judeo, Christian
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  principles and values, and it's just very disappointing. Let's talk about a few terms,
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  Barry, and I know you've preached on this at your church, and unfortunately a lot of pastors
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  avoid Bible prophecy, which is sad, and that's one of the reasons we are where we are in America
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  with the biblical illiteracy, but also just these terms. Covenant theology is the church is an
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  expansion of Israel, and then there are different terms, and I want to ask you, can you use these
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  almost interchangeably, replacement theology or suppression is, supersessionism and fulfillment
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  theology. Are these can these, are they all the same, and can you break that down for us?
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  Yeah, they all end up at the same place. They all end up with replacement theology,
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  there's different roads to get there. You can view that God has finished and fulfilled Judaism,
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  and therefore there's no need for the Jews, and you know, or Judaism, and the interesting thing
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  thing about that is what you were mentioning, you know, if we read the New Testament,
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  the church is grafted in to the, well, who we grafted into if God's done with the nation of Israel.
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  So again, you know, the the holes in this particular thinking, you know, are many and significant,
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  and you know, looking at, you know, where you've got this idea that, you know, and there's actually
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  what's called dual covenant theology, that God saves Israel through first birth and the adherence
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  to the law and the church is saved by faith through grace. And, you know, really I think that's
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  probably one of the most dangerous heresies to make its way through the church because basically
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  you're telling Jews you don't need Jesus to be saved. When Jesus told the teacher of Israel,
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  you must be born again, and you know, what's implied there, just like every Gentile. Nobody's saved
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  by their first birth. So, you know, here you've got, you know, this idea, you know, that there's a
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  different route that Jews derive in their heavenly home. And many read, you know, what Paul
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  talked about in Romans is all Israel being saved as a foundation for that. So, you know, replacement
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  theology is interesting, David, because you know, the word theology means the study of the nature of God.
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  And one of the things I think that immediately becomes problematic in replacement theology,
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  it is not within God's nature and character to choose people and then cast them off. I mean,
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  if he did that with Israel, why couldn't he do that with the church? And then what do you do with
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  verses like Ephesians 113, where we have a guarantee of a future inheritance when we become born
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  again through the person of the Holy Spirit and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? You know,
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  there's just so many things that become problematic. If you hold to that, including your
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  interpretation of prophecy, if you don't believe on May 4, 1948, that the prophetic narrative began
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  to be advanced and we started moving into that final generation that we'll see the content of
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  the Olivet Discourse fulfilled, then you find yourself basically subject to self-interpretation
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  of many major passages of Scripture. And therefore, each individual kind of in a way, David,
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  has to interpret it the way they see it. And that's never the right way to handle Scripture.
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  We context, context, context, the three rules of interpretation. So, yeah, it's problematic on
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  multiple levels. I like that. Real estate, it's location, location, location. In Scripture,
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  it's context, context, context. Isn't it kind of grandiose to think that
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  we, the church, Christians, the church has replaced Israel and all the promises that,
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  read the Old Testament, all the promises that God made to Israel are fulfilled in the Christian
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  church, not in Israel. Is there a perfect storm? I want to say brewing, but I think it's done
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  brewing, that of biblical illiteracy that would kind of set the stage for believing that kind of
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  theology. Well, you know, the interesting thing, David, about that question is, and I like how
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  you started, you know, are all the positives now assigned to the church where you can't
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  cast off the unfulfilled negatives. And really, one of the major problems with this type of thinking
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  is that if everything written to Israel that was not fulfilled in Old Testament times, now applies
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  to the church, then that means the church is going to go through the great tribulation.
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  And which, I mean, the 73th week of Daniel has to be fulfilled. And we know that 69 of the 70
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  prophesied in Daniel 9 have happened. So that leaves one hanging out there. And if it's not
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  fulfilled, that means the Bible contains errors. And if the Bible contains errors, it's a huge issue.
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  But I think when you start going down the road of just ignoring these things, you know, because
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  they don't apply to Israel anymore, then everything becomes just basically a matter, a matter of
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  self-interpretation or that. Which the pastor sees it as being. And again, and getting back to
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  that context issue, that's the only safe way for us to interpret scripture, including prophetic
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  scripture. And so many just avoid it. They don't talk about it. They leave their people unprepared
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  for what's coming. You made a such a great point. I mean, we want all the promises, you know,
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  we want all the blessings. We don't want to talk about the curses or, you know what I mean,
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  the repercussions or the warnings. It's just a kind of like a tunnel vision way of
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  misinterpreting scripture. We've got to take a brief pause with Pastor Barry Stagner, Calvary Central
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  OC in Orange County, California. We'll be right back on World View Matters.
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  that out, but the dishwasher for sure. Anyway, worldviewmatters.tv and your support is a blessing.
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  And thanks so much for your prayers. Barry Stagner's our guest today. We're talking about a very
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  important topic and that's replacement theology. And Barry, before we get to that, I want to go over
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  to a recent program you did with our friend, Brandon Holthouse. And I like what Harbinger's daily
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  did. I think they took the tip of the spear title. They they they always change the titles. And I
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  love how they said, how the church is failing, filling seats instead of preaching truth. So just
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  comment on that briefly. We'll get right back into Israel and replacement theology.
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  Well, yeah, that seems to be the order of the day. And I think any pastor would recognize that
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  the number of emails received per week from how about how to grow your church as evidence of that.
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  And you know, God already gave us a church growth plan, preached the word. And he'll add to the
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  church daily those who are being saved. And you know, I don't think there's any problem with
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  getting tactical or being relevant, you know, as far as their technical capabilities and those
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  kind of things or even worship style. Those things are important. And but the truth of the matter is,
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  our responsibility is to rightly divide the word of truth. And you know, one of the ways I like to
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  put that is that many today have opted for filling the sanctuary instead of emptying hell.
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  I mean, that's our responsibility is to preverse 24, 11 and 12. I think they're just fabulous
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  verses to remind us of our mission. And they say, rescue those who are drawn towards death.
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  Hold back those stumbling to the slaughter. If we who do this, he who weighs the heart will
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  perceive it and render to each one of us according to what we have done. And you know, I think this is
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  so important because, you know, rescuing those drawn towards death and holding back people stumbling
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  to the slaughter can only happen through people receiving the implanted word, which is able to save
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  their souls. So, you know, should we fail to do that, then we can't expect to see that same in
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  result. And you know, sadly, because of the age in which we live, David, you know, so many people
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  who measure church's viability by attendance. Yep. Numbers. Yeah. A big place doesn't mean
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  biblical accuracy. It just means a lot of people. And sadly, nothing more. And you know, there's
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  good Pastor Jack Kiff's, huge church, Bible teaching church, you know, so it's not that one
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  excludes the other. But the reality is a lot of people, that's their unit of measure.
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  And so many people go there as a big, big huge place with tens of thousands. You know, we went
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  from the mega church. Now we've got the giga church. Church is over 20,000 people. And they're all
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  over the place. And sadly, many of them are simply, you know, you've got a self-help guru
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  who's standing behind the podium, carrying the label pastor. And it's about keeping people in the
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  seats and keeping them happy and keeping them coming instead of holding them back from stumbling
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  towards death. Yep. Too many positive motivational speakers and preachers that are, I don't know,
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  they might even be to some degree, Biblically illiterate themselves, but I don't know. And now,
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  who knows where they went to seminary? That's for another topic, another podcast, because we know
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  what's happened even in the seminaries in America, sadly, dropping an air and sea, the air and sea
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  of scriptures. But let's get back to what we were talking about, Barry. So the covenants, promises
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  and warnings of the mosaic covenant, they are only valid for Israel and not the church. Correct?
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  What am I missing? But we don't see anywhere else where God transfers a promise from one group to
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  another in the sense that replacement theology requires. And you know, when God made promises to
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  Israel with the people, with the descendants of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob, the covenant
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  covered the land as well. And it was an everlasting unconditional covenant, therefore it cannot change.
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  And therefore watching what happened in May of 1948 should warm our hearts, it should stir us
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  up to 11 good works that the hours late, the night as far spent the day as in hand. But sadly,
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  because of the misinterpretation of scripture, so many people look at it in the opposite direction,
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  you know, that this is some political entity, it's got nothing to do with scripture, you know,
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  and as a matter of fact, I heard a local pastor here in Southern California, who pastors one of
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  these giga churches, you know, who said that, you know, these people who are teaching Bible prophecy
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  are heretics, you know, I mean, just flat out, call this all heretics for teaching Bible prophecy.
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  But David, you know, the scripture contains a little over 32,000 words, the old and new testament
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  combined, 8,100 plus of them are related to Bible prophecy. So how can you teach the whole council
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  of God and eliminate 27% of the book? I mean, it just doesn't work. And it is the, I think the,
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  the, the dominant factor is the why we see so much, our reality in the church today that's welcome
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  to even protected. Yeah. I like it. 27% of scripture. That's a pretty big chunk that you have to
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  either ignore or avoid or allegorize, but I want to read a quote from, from gotquestions.org and
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  let you respond. They say contrary to replacement theology, dispensationalism teaches that after
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  the rapture, God will restore Israel as the primary focus of his plan. The first event at this
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  time is the tribulation and they reference Revelation chapters 6 through 19. The world will be judged
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  for rejecting Christ while Israel is prepared through the trials of the great tribulation for the
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  second coming of the Messiah. And then when Christ does return to earth at the end of the tribulation,
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  Israel will be ready to receive him. Anything you would change or add to that or just expound on
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  Pastor Barry. Well, no, I think we're, we're watching what they were pointing to. They kind of
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  started with post rapture. And yeah, it's the 70th week of Daniel. That word can be in the Hebrew
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  commune to carve out or specify for Daniel's people, the Jews and the Holy City. And so the 70th
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  week of Daniel has to be fulfilled just for the sake of biblical integrity if nothing else.
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  But one of the other things I think that's important for remember is the focus is Daniel's people,
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  the Jews and the Holy City. Now, again, like I said earlier, you know, these things have to be
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  already in existence for them to be fulfilled during the tribulation period. And halfway through,
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  we're told the Prince of the people who are to come, which is points to the revival of an empire,
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  is going to stand in the most holy place and declare that he is God. And this is the Antichrist.
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  And so therefore, you know, there's certain amount of things that have to happen in order for
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  those things to take place. One, the Jews have to be in possession of East Jerusalem. We know that
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  happened back on June 7th, 1967. Well, even prior to that, they have to be back in the land.
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  And one of the things I think that people often overlook David, and we look at, you know, Ezekiel 37,
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  the valley, the vision of the dry bones and all that. But we really need to back up a chapter
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  into Ezekiel 36 21 and 22, where the Lord tells Israel, I'm not doing this for your sake.
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  But I'm doing this for my name's sake, because every day the Jews were outside of the land that
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  God gave them, his name was being profaned. And the nations were saying, these are God's people
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  watching all the things that were seeing happening. You know, point two, what got questions was
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  highlighting. And that is there's going to become a global shift, as well as the divine shift of
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  attention, which implies the necessity of the removal of the church as well, where God is going
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  to deal directly with his chosen people, the Jews, and complete one, his discipline of Israel.
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  Secondly, we do know Zechariah tells us that two thirds of the Jews are going to die during
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  the tribulation. Wow. And one third of the Jews who survive are going to Zechariah 1210,
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  look upon the one whom they pierced and mourn for him as one mourns for an only son. And that will
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  happen at the second coming. And thus, Romans will be fulfilled where Paul said, all Israel will be
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  saved. And therefore, with the advantage of living when we do, we can see that what that passage
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  actually means is that all the Jews who survived the tribulation are going to be saved. And one of
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  the things important to remember, David, is we talk about moving into the millennium. That is that
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  every person who goes into the millennium is going to be a believer, including all the Jews.
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  Most likely, we're talking some 5 million Jews are going to come to faith when Jesus comes back again.
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  Well, that's a very encouraging thought, just to think about that and to realize,
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  we have so much to hope in and we're so thankful for what the truth is and what we get to look
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  forward to Barry. Sorry, we ran out of time. There's so much more we could have talked about,
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  but I think it's an important topic, what we touched on. And I appreciate the perspective from
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  when you were with a mirror and what he's going through there now over in Israel. But brother,
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  thank you. God bless you and strengthen you. Keep you healthy. And we'll really we'll do this again.
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  Love it. Thank you, David. Always a privilege to be on with you.
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  Blessings, brother. All right, guys, share the podcast. Thank you so much for your prayers. God
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  bless you. And as always, here it comes. Keep speaking the truth about things that matter.