Latest / Legally Brunette / Killer Thriller Docu: Abducted in the Middle of the Night by A Complete Stranger but Police Called Her the Real Life “Gone Girl”

Transcript

Killer Thriller Docu: Abducted in the Middle of the Night by A Complete Stranger but Police Called Her the Real Life “Gone Girl” · Legally Brunette

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Welcome back to Killer Thriller DOCU edition. I'm
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: your host, Jennifer Fessler. So today we are talking about
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: the Netflix docuseries American Nightmare, and this story is certainly
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: a nightmare. On March twenty third, twenty fifteen, Aaron Quinn
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: and his girlfriend Denise Huskins were asleep in their home
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: and at three am, they were awoken to a home invader.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Aaron was tied up and sedated, while Denise was abducted
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: from the home and held hostage for forty eight hours.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: This case tells the shocking story of these two victims,
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: who were believed to be lying by the Vallejo Police Department.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Law enforcement claimed the case was a hoax and that
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: Denise was following the plot of Gone Girl. I don't
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: know if you guys have seen the movie, but they
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: thought that she was a real life Gone Girl. So
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: this documentary was so hard, as many of them are.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Most of them are so hard to watch. And Denise
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: is the most amazing woman. And and Aaron, you feel
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: his pain in this and these these two were just
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: brutalized by law enforcement. And obviously Denise was brutalized by
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: her captor and we're going to talk to her all
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: about it and just sort of talk about the case
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: and the way their words were twisted against them. So
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: I'm going to bring in this unbelievable heroic woman. Hello
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: to Denise.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: Welcome, Thank you, thank you for having me, Thank you
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: so much for being here with us.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: I have to say first, and I'm sure most people,
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: when they, you know, begin with an interview, want you
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: to know how sorry that they are for everything that
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: you've been through. Documentary is. It's well done and it's fascinating,
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: but it is all so so heartbreaking for me as
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: of you or I can only imagine what you've gone
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: through in real life and real time, and I hope
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: that you're doing okay.
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: Thank you. I appreciate you saying that.
• 2:13
  Speaker 4: You know, it's been eleven years and there's still a
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: lot of ups and downs with it all, and part
• 2:18
  Speaker 4: of that is our choice to share what we went
• 2:23
  Speaker 4: through publicly, and even now we're still trying to do
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: that with speaking in front of law enforcement and other
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: survivors and advocates and trying to advocate for legislative changes
• 2:36
  Speaker 4: and things that inherently are uncomfortable, and you know, we
• 2:42
  Speaker 4: have to kind of relive it over and over again.
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: But there's a greater purpose we feel that makes it worthwhile,
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: especially being parents of two young girls, Like you go
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: through something awful and you want to give some kind
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: of meaning or purpose it.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: I hope that if something happened to me like what
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: you have been through, I would be that strong. I
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: doubt it very seriously, but I hope that I would be.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: I had actually saw yesterday this woman whose son was
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: murdered speak at this luncheon, and she said one of
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: the hardest things for her was when we peep ask her,
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: they say how are you? And for whatever reason, she said,
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: how am I? So I have a dagger sticking out
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: of my chest that you may not see, but it
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: doesn't go away. It's there all the time, you know,
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: it changes, And she's also turning her tragedy into something meaningful.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: And it was.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: It was just so fascinating and admirable and everything wonderful.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: And so I do want to talk to you, obviously
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: about everything you're doing now, which I can't even believe.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: But let's start off, if it's okay with you, just
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: we'll talk a little bit about the documentary.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, it's been eleven years. I don't know.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, I want to ask you how you're moving on,
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: but I know that you are now married with two
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: beautiful young daughters. They are so adorable. We saw them
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: on the beach at the end of the documentary. So
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, you've kind of already answered the question, but
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: I'm sure it's still I would think day to time
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: kind of thing.
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, the gosh, being a parent is such
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: a special gift. And our oldest was born five years
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: to the day of when I was released from the kidnapping,
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: which was just like this crazy full circle moment in life.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: Wow, to the day that is crazy.
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think it's just a representation of life
• 4:33
  Speaker 4: cycling and continuing to move forward. You know, you never
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: fully move on from something like that. But being a
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: parent now especially, it's like this huge responsibility knowing more
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: of the bigger picture issues, the systemic flaws, and how
• 4:50
  Speaker 4: vulnerable women can be, but people in general could be.
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: And so we feel in a way it's our duty
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: to try to make some changes and create some awareness,
• 5:05
  Speaker 4: you know, and hopefully leave the world a better place
• 5:07
  Speaker 4: for them.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: Well, I certainly hope that it's not the same place
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: as it was for you eleven years ago when you're poor.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: It's watching this is so infuriating, right, It's watching what
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: first your husband went through and then obviously the unbelievable
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: torment that you had to go through after you were released.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: And I, as I'm watching it, I'm having all these
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: questions and I want to scream a little bit. Right,
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: just seeing how Aaron was treated was so infuriating. Do
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: you think that that was eleven years ago, which is
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: really not that long, right? Do you think things have
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: changed from then until now? Because when I looked at it,
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: it seems so barbaric to me. Yeah, and I'm thinking,
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: you know that wasn't you know thirty years ago? That
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: was eleven years ago? Where and obvious I'm gonna ask
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: you this, but like where was the lawyer and this
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: poor young man was tortured? So do you think things
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: have changed or is that still what's going on?
• 6:04
  Speaker 5: Oh?
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: Things are changing, and it's it's slow, it's hard. It's
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: a cultural, uh challenge because sadly, what we learned is
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: that that's how these officers were trained. And I mean,
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: we wanted to believe it was just a one off
• 6:25
  Speaker 4: and they were just you know, rogue officers and bad
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: apples and all of that. But as we dug in
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: preparing initially for a defense because we were being threatened
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: with prosecution, we discovered, yeah, that it's a common training technique,
• 6:40
  Speaker 4: the retechnique. It's guilt presumptive. So the which is it
• 6:45
  Speaker 4: was a really like desta destabilizing thing to to learn presumptive.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: I've never heard yes, yeah.
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: So you grow up thinking you're innocent until proven guilty
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: in this country. But then this technique, they basically go
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: through like kind of a pseudoscience initial read on whether
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: they believe someone's lying or not. And once they've determined
• 7:08
  Speaker 4: in their mind if someone's lying based off of body
• 7:11
  Speaker 4: language or eye rolls or whatever it is, then go
• 7:15
  Speaker 4: in with the goal to get a confession. And so
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: there's a step process to do that that they followed
• 7:22
  Speaker 4: with Aaron because they believed and that's confirmation bias. They
• 7:26
  Speaker 4: believed that he murdered me, and so everything was focused
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: on trying to break him down to confess to my murder.
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: And that's what people saw it initially, Like so many
• 7:36
  Speaker 4: people could connect with what I went through. They could
• 7:39
  Speaker 4: kind of understand the depth and terror of kidnapping and
• 7:43
  Speaker 4: rape and all of that, but they couldn't fully grasp
• 7:47
  Speaker 4: what the torture that Aaron had to go through, already
• 7:52
  Speaker 4: being in a traumatized state. And so I think the
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: documentary was helpful and allowing people to really be confronted
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: with that. And again it's not common. We've seen over
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: and over again that it happens. And it also this
• 8:08
  Speaker 4: technique is used sometimes on sexual assault survivors coming to
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: report a crime, and they if the investigators think she's
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: lying or he's lying, then they use the similar techniques.
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: And again you're going in already.
• 8:22
  Speaker 4: Going through trauma, already broken, already terrified. And he endured
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: eighteen hours. I think it's like six hours that when
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: a false confession comes up, it's like the time limit.
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: And he extended that because he believed that I was
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: alive and he felt like if he got an attorney,
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: if he didn't help, then they'd stop looking for me.
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: Wait, but Denise said, eighteen hours is that consecutive?
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: Well, so he's there for eighteen hours, so then there's
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: these windows of time where they come in and they
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: go hard at him, and it's a good like forty
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: five minutes to an hour of just like repeating the
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: same things of your cold calculated monster. Maybe you made
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: a mistake. We think you made a mistake. It's gonna
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: be everything's gonna be so much easier. And then they
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: start using his family against him. His brother is a
• 9:07
  Speaker 4: special agent FBI, right, and they're like, you're going to
• 9:11
  Speaker 4: ruin your family's good name, You're gonna.
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: Ruin your brother's career. You're not going to get physical.
• 9:15
  Speaker 4: They take everything that is important to you and they
• 9:18
  Speaker 4: use it against you.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: But Denise, I mean, I watch it so at the beginning,
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: and I'm sure this was purposeful. So we see Aaron
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: and we don't know where he is, right, He's in
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: a chair and he could be in jail, Like that's
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: sort of what occurred. Like I wasn't sure. I know,
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: obviously the story is out there, but I wasn't. I
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: try to be I try to go into these things
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: not really knowing, even if I vaguely remember. So and
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: I've seen enough of these now that sometimes you capture Mean,
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: he could have been guilty, right, So like in another documentary,
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: maybe they would have caught this kind of footage of
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: him and still yet he was convicted and you don't know.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: So I'm watching it and I'm thinking from the beginning,
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: this kid not kid, but to me, he loo, this
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: poor kid is not fucking guilty. What are they seeing
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: that I don't see? He is traumatized and he is
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: Why are they so intent on it?
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: Didn't make sense? Obviously, I'm sure you get asked this
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: a lot.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: Unfortunately, he didn't think to say the word lawyer from
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: the get go. I'm thinking things are very different, because
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: as soon as he said it, the one detective or
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: the lie detector guy was you sort of did you
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: know like this?
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know this old shit?
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: Now, you know whatever, We're screwed now. But I don't
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: know why he didn't say lawyer, but he's young and
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: scared and traumatized. Assuming that had maybe he just didn't
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: think too. But I'm watching him and I'm not sure
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: how this whole story is going to play out, but
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: I don't I'm not looking at him thinking psychopath guilty.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking this poor kid, where is his mother?
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: And even like the fact that they did the lie
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: detector and they lied to him about it, there's nothing
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: illegally illegal here.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: This is protocol.
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: Well, Yeah, you know, in America, you police are allowed
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: to lie.
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: They're legally allowed to lie.
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: In other countries, they've they've changed that, but it's still
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: again that kind of cultural idea that police should be
• 11:18
  Speaker 4: allowed to lie. And there's plenty of people who've like
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: crusaded to make change and tried to change laws around that,
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: but there's still a lot of pushback. But that's why
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: these these real life stories are so important, is to
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: show the damage that can.
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: Be caused when it goes to that degree.
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: And again, like you, I mean, we're privileged. We've never
• 11:44
  Speaker 4: had to be in that situation before. So and also
• 11:49
  Speaker 4: his brother is a special agent in the FBI, so
• 11:51
  Speaker 4: he believed in law enforcement do.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: They call his brother, like when it first happened as
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: a courtesy, did they reach out?
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So it was the toys of the directors and
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: producers of the documentary to not include anything about his
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: brother because he wasn't allowed to participate because he's still
• 12:11
  Speaker 4: an FBI agent. But no, his family, his mom and
• 12:16
  Speaker 4: dad and his brother, an FBI agent, were in the
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: waiting room all all night, in the middle of the night,
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: and law enforcement went to them and they even told
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: his mom yeah, we think he killed her, and she
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: like screamed and like fell to the ground, and they
• 12:31
  Speaker 4: lied to his brother and said that he's had a
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: psychotic break.
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: His pupils are dilated.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: He's killing me. You are killing me. How is this?
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: I've never heard of such a thing. This is so disgusting.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: I know this, mother, I mean, listen, Denise, at the
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: end of the day, I want to talk to you,
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: and you know you've been through that's hell, and then
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: add on what you've been through. I just cannot believe.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: I've never heard of this, of putting people through that.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: I cannot understand it. I can't. I'm so glad and
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: we'll talk about this later that you're working towards making changes.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I'd be strong enough to do that,
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: but it is disgusting and infuriating. So if anything, I
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: think most of yours are going to feel this way,
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: completely and utterly outraged. I cannot believe that. And did
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: his mother or brother say he needs a lawyer?
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: Technically it has to be Aaron to say that he
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: wants a lawyer, and then sometimes they I mean, this
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: is where it gets really messy, and quite frankly disgusting.
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: If someone says I think I need a lawyer, or
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: I think I might need to talk to a lawyer,
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: that they can still argue wasn't a declaration of needing
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: an attorney. So even if you say it, it doesn't
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: necessarily mean it. And in fact, that scene when you
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: see Aaron say well maybe I need a lawyer, because
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: he's like, it's we're just going in circles, they go out,
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: and they actually Lee had called Aaron's brother, the FBI agent,
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: into the room to see if he could get a
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: confession out of Aaron, under the premise he's had a
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: psychotic break, we think he killed her, his pupils are dilated,
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: all these things, and then as soon as his brother
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: walks in, Aaron just breaks down and he starts crying
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: because he finally sees someone who loves him, knows him,
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: cares about him, and could do something to help. And
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: he even Aaron told him I asked for an attorney,
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: and his brother's like, wait, what you asked for an attorney?
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: Like, that's the next thing I'm going to do.
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: And so it was his brother who left this stage
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: and started calling to get an attorney. But they weren't
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: making steps to get the attorney. In fact, he told
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: that main detective Mustard, Aaron's brother told him, look, he
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: asked for an attorney, I'm gonna go get it. And
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: the detective said, I don't know that. That doesn't really
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: work very well. I want to try a few more things.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: First, Well didn't his brother? Was his brother like you dude?
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: That is crazy?
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: See, I know so like the egregiousness of it all
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: it I mean, God, anytime to talk about it, it's
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: like we lived it. It's like, but it's just it's
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: so extreme that Yeah.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: Could he had left?
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: Could Aaron have He wasn't under arrest, so could he
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: that whole time, that eighteen hours? At any point, could
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: he have walked himself right out? I know he wanted
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: to help because he was so scared for you.
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: Well, he also they took everything of his his keys,
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: his wallet, his phone. They stripped him, literally stripped him naked,
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: photographed him naked, and then put prison.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: I saw, So was that was that a mind excuse
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: my language, a mind fuck, like to put him in prison?
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I don't he's Mustard said, this is
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: all we got. You're in prison because this is all
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: we got. I don't, right, you know, I mean, it's
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: just it's and.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: Why couldn't he wear his clothes they were trying to
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: examine them or well.
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and then that and that is understandable, right, but
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: like they could have had his parents and bring him
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: sweatpants or something, you know. So, I mean it was
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: all really about like degrading him into this character that
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: they deemed him to be. And yeah, he so his
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: house was a crime scene. He doesn't have a car.
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: He's in a windowless room. As soon as they leave,
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: you can hear the door lock, so there's no indication
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: that he's actually free to go. He does have shoes
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: or socks on. He doesn't know where his family is.
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: That whole time he's asking do you know where my
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: family is? He doesn't know his family's in the station.
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: They keep saying like, I don't know. We'll get back
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: to you on it, and he's ultimately staying because he
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: wants them to find me, and he thinks, Okay, I
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: just have to explain it, and if I explain it
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: more because I'm telling the truth, then they'll believe me.
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: And you went into it with an innocent's mindset thinking
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: if you are innocent and you're telling the truth, then
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: the truth shall prevail and it'll all come out and that.
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's just not it's just it doesn't work.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: That the one shot they got of him, I could
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: actually cry just thinking of it. I get but when
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: he like put his feet up, he put the chairs
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: together just to lay down, to put his head down. Yeah,
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: I'm you know, I'm a mother as well. I'm just
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: I cannot even imagine. And his parents and your parents
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: did such a beautiful job in this documentary. They both
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: sets were so eloquent, and you know, I was so
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: touched by all the different things that they said, specifically
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: your dad and the scene when he was talking to
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: the reporter.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: But anyway, yeah, yeah, I digress. How are they doing now?
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: Makes me emotional?
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's okay.
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: Well, Aaron's dad just passed away this Christmas.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: Oh I'm so sorry to hear that.
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and he's.
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: You know, he's he was a shy man, keeps to himself,
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: very intelligent, was an et hour doctor for thirty years,
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: and he you know, so it was a big thing
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: for him just to like sit in front of a
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: camera and talk about this horrible experience.
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: And I mean all of our.
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: Family members they did it because they knew how important
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: it was not just to us, but like for people
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: to see how these things can happen. And it's really
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: hard for I think sometimes when you watch these shows,
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: and especially if you watch a lot of them, I mean,
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: you can see the emotional impact, but you really you
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: really don't know the depth of it and how challenging
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: it is and how intimidating it is to sit in
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: front of cameras an interviewer. You know, everyone has a
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: plan of what they're hoping to get from you, and
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: you don't want to disappoint them, and you don't want
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: to you know.
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: So there's just a lot of pressure and a lot
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: of impact.
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: And so it was just it was so amazing for
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: them to be able to do it, because, like you said,
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: you know people, you're a mom, you're you know, you're
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: a brother, you're you can you can feel it's these
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: things that happened. And when police target and falsely accused
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: and wrongfully convict, it's not just that one person.
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: It destroys family of.
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: Course, and and I mean it just there's just this
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: like big almost like a bomb goes off and just
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: course a trickle effect lead. I mean I had friends
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: who were like tertiary friends that would have nightmares, you know, yeah, yeah,
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: so so yeah, it's it was a lot for them,
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: and I'm just so proud of all of them that
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: were when it too a little anxious and you know,
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: but it really helped to show people the full scope of.
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: Something like this.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and your brother, your sweet brother and wanted to
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: just protect you. And eleven years ago, how old are
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: you guys?
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: Know? Forty? Sorry, it's just funny to say that out loud.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: Really, that's the that told be the hardest.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: Thing you ever have to say, forty or baby still
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: to me. But anyway, but I.
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: Was t I mean it was twenty nine at the time.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: I just think my son now is twenty six, and
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: he just reminded me a little bit of Aaron. And
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: after that, I don't know how a mother. The anger
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: I think would have been so overwhelming. Everybody would have
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: I would just everybody would have to die a slow pan.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: I would be I don't know how I could control
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: the anger. I wonder how your parents.
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: Aaron's mom especially, she's Mama Bear and she's like if
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: she sees that there's a problem with whatever she's confronted
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: with her life, she goes at it and we had
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: to like rain her in. Yeah, especially you know, we
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: both we have Aaron and I both had separate criminal
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: defense attorneys. But once we were reunited, we were all
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: working together as a team. And you know, it was
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: like the media frenzy was crazy and everyone wanted to talk,
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: and they're trying to kind of manipulate you to talk
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: before it's best.
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: For you and your case.
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: And they go under the impression of if you don't
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: talk now, this is the one time you're gonna you know,
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: this is someone needs to hear from a family member,
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: someone you know. And so there's this pressure of like
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: I need to do something. And so there's times where
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: she was like driving to go give give an interview
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: and we're.
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: Like no, no, no, no, no, no, come back.
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: So yeah, it's it's hard because you want to like
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: scream and shout to the world and and show them
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: like no, this is this is the truth, this is
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: what really happened.
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: What you were told is a lie, and you want
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: to correct the narrative.
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: But then also if you're being threatened with prosecution, and
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: you have to plan to defend yourself legally. You have
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: you there's there's strategy, and you have to really make
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: sure that you're taking the proper steps.
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: It was so hard like.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: That straight there was strength you guys.
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and we had it like I did that in captivity, Like, oh,
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: you didn't fight, you didn't scream. I'm like, I want
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: I even had the lead fbie and ask me like,
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: did you did you try to escape? Did you think
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: about it? And I'm like, oh, no, I can't.
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: I didn't think about it at all.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I cannot. I cannot believe that these questions are asked.
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: I know.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: All right, So I'm gonna ask you some questions just
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: about if it's okay with you, just about the actual incident.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: So one of the questions I have here is like,
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: what stands out the most in the first few hours
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: you were taken.
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: Well, you're trying to hold onto your sanity. Quite frankly,
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: I'm terrified. I'm confused. I don't know what's happening. I
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: don't know why this is. You know, like you're just
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: trying to make sense of it, and you're really like
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: literally needing to live. Second by second, and pay attention
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: to any little thing.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Back that you had that wherewithal?
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: I have to tell you, watching you, watching you, hearing
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: you say that you were counting the turns and you
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: recognize it. It was probably a Mustang and you I'm thinking
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: to myself, are you kidding me? How do you have
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: the wherewithal? In the trunk of a car? Blindfolded?
• 23:14
  Speaker 5: Like?
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: Are you thinking it?
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: One day they're gonna ask me, and I'm gonna have
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: to help, how did you have the wherewithal?
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: To? Even it's kind of silly, But like I when
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: I was being interrogated by the police, I just when
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: they're asking me those stupid questions. I mean, I'm telling
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: them like I'm trying, because there is moments as soon
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: as that trunk door closed, I'm starting to hyperventilate. I'm
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: thinking something's gonna go wrong. They're going to burn me
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: alive in the car. Like you're just thinking of all
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: the all the possible scenarios, because you also need to
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: be prepared for everything, and so your mind wanders and like, no,
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: I need to stay focused.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: I don't I don't know what you're talking about.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: How do you you're a young woman, have the your
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: parents did a good job raising you, my friend, that
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: you could say to yourself, I have to have the wherewithal,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: I mean that the fear didn't just grip you.
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I mean, I think partly what helped me
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: is being a physical therapist, and I have an understanding
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: of the trauma response and all the different like systemic
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: things that happen. I mean, as soon as I woke
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: up to a strange man's voice saying like, be calm,
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: We're not here to hurt you, and I'm seeing a
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: flashing white light and red laser dots and like they
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: have guns, Like there's people here, We're surrounded, but you know,
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: and I could feel that physiological response happened and it
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: floods like it it's almost like you've taken a drug
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: and there's this whole chemical, hormonal thing that's happening. Your
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: heart's racing, Like I could feel almost like my eyeballs
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: were shaking and I like focus them, but I knew
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: what was happening in my body, so I could. I mean,
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: I literally try to teach people how to calm their breathing.
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: So I think those types of that's amazing techniques helped
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: me stay grounded, or even like having to put the
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: zip ties on Aaron, like I was just focusing on
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: him and trying to ground myself in the moment and
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: then knowing and just telling myself like I need to
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: pay attention.
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: I need to pay attention.
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: And I'm just like taking stock of every little thing,
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: of every little sound, because I don't you just don't
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: know what little.
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: Bit of information might save your life.
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: And so I I like it was It's again, it's
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: like this, even with police or even with the public
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: shaming and the misrepresentation all this stuff, like your innate
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: response is to do something, and then cognitively, I know,
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: well that's not going to help me right now. I
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: can't just react, so whatce I need to pull it
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: back in. And so the energy that it takes to
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: have the flips straight restraint is like.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm hearing your words crazy. I don't get it.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: I am fifty seven years old.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: I don't get how you were able to access that strength,
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: not just because of your age, but you're an extraordinary
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: human for many reasons. But this is like, just hearing
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: you talk about this, I still don't get it. And
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: I'm hoping maybe well, we're gonna talk about everything that's
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: happening with you now.
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: But I don't want you to get it.
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: I don't want to get it either. I'm being honest.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: I would like to know that my daughter had some
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: training in this area, you know, just even if it's
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: because trauma.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: I know what it feels like to be.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: Traumatized or going through something where it feels like my
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: eyeballs are going to come where you know, it hits
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: the body like that. So, but it's it's such a
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: useful skill, I guess for so many, well both young
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: women and men, to be able to process that somehow.
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think it's just you don't know
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: until you're in a situation like.
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: That, and I hope that people don't.
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, No, like true terror feels like what it feels
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: like in your body, like you can describe it. And
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: so but I think people are stronger than they even know.
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: And you know, a lot of people say like I
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: would never be able to dot dot dot or like
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: you know.
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: Do what you did, and it's like I tell them,
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: you just don't know.
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: You're surprising, And that's why I love my job as
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: a physical therapist. Like I tell people all the time,
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: Like our bodies do an incredible job protecting ourselves and
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: the resilience within. Just continue on saying, like someone living
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: with chronic pain, you just survive because you need to
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: go to work, because you need to take care of
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: your kids, you know, and in time it builds up
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: and eventually you could break down.
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: And that's where like real work and.
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: Therapy, you know, psychological, physical, all of those things help
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: and like processing the healing. But in those moments of survival,
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: like it's incredible what the human body can do.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: Do you share your story with your clients?
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: I do sometimes.
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: It's that's been an interesting thing to navigate because it
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: has been in and out of the news cycle in
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: different ways. Uh So, like say, you know, when we
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: had to go give our victim impact statement and speak
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: for the first time in a courtroom, I knew it
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: was going to be publicized, and so for some of
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: my patients I let them know, you know, like this
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: is something that's going to happen and you might see
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: it on the news, and I'd rather you know from
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: me than turning on the TV. I mean, like, what
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: that's my therapist, you know. So it depends on the
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: person in the situation. But most of my patients know
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: about it. Yeah, and uh so, and in a way
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: it can help me connect on a deeper level with
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: some of them, especially because a lot of people with
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: multiple health diagnoses, chronic pain, who've been in and out
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: of PT and different types and or different doctor's offices.
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: When we really get down to it, there's some kind
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: of childhood or long term emotional trauma that is associated
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: with the layers of pain, physical pain that systems shut
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: down you know, your gut, your stomach, your heart, like
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: when you're in that chronic state of stress or when
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: you've had something really you know and stays with you.
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: It it adds up over time.
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: And so it's I think really eye opening and revealing
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: and healing for them to connect the dots as far
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: as why, because they can get really frustrated and like
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: and almost be mad at their body, and I just
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: have to remind them, like, your body has saved you,
• 29:56
  Speaker 4: has helped you.
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: This is hard, it's com flex, but this is where
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: it stems from and survival.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: So, speaking of childhood trauma, so your mom talked about
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: how you had been molested as a child, and one
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: of the many revolting and disgusting things we learn is
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: that I forget was it one of the reporters of
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: police officers.
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: It was the detective, and I was still in captivity
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: and my family didn't know if I was alive or dead.
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: They were having them in there to listen to the
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: proof of life that was sent in by my captor
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: saying that I was alive and giving a current event
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: to confirm the day. But when they went in there,
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: before they even had her listen to the actual thing
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: that they asked her to come in and listen to,
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: they were asking again like accusatory questions about my character,
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: about my past, my relationships, my drinking, my this to that,
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: and then has anything bad happened to her?
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: And my Mom's like, oh, yeah.
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: This thing, and she doesn't just doesn't know what would
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: be helpful for whatever reason. And then you know, the
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: detective said something along the lines of, you know, my
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: experienced women who've people who've hadn't been assaulted before might
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: want to relive the thrill of it, or that.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: Was the word. It was the thrill you know I've had.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: I've been in therapy for many, many years, and I've
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: had some childhood trauma, and my my own therapist has
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: said to me, sometimes you are used to something or
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: you're you believe after a while as a victim that
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: something is normal and it almost feels comfortable, right, like
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: like being in a certain kind of pain feels comfortable.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: That is a very different thing than saying than calling
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: it a thrill.
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: I know, and I think that maybe that's what he.
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: Was intending.
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: Or what he was thinking of, Like there's kind of
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: a repeated thing.
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: Pattern, say, like an abusive.
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: Parent or something, and then you kind of associate love
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: with abuse, and so sometimes that that kind of thing,
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: so that there's total complexities to that. The way in
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: which he delivered or it to my mom was as
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: if it and my younger brother as if I was
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: at fault, So as if I was I did something.
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: And then even after that, one of the officers said
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: to my mom and brother that they should watch Gone
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: Girl or something about Gone Girl at that point in time,
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: and I hadn't even been released yet, so they already
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: clearly had an idea of me, and it didn't matter
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: what my family told them.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: First of all, I hate that stupid movie, but had
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: you seen it?
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: It took me like nine months to finally watch it.
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: I had heard about it, I had heard about the
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: book and the movie.
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: I hadn't read.
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: I hadn't seen it, So like that was one other
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: thing infuriating thing about this whole thing. It's like they're
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: saying that I'm trying to replicate something I didn't see
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: or watch or read. So it's just like how And
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: then when I finally did nine months later, I'm like.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: There's nothing the same about that movie.
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: It makes sense because she has she inflicts injuries to herself,
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: she's super dramatic.
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: When she's released.
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: But then the law enforcement was saying they couldn't believe
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: me because I didn't seem like anything bad happened to me,
• 33:30
  Speaker 4: that I didn't show any emotion, that I didn't have
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: any physical injuries. You know, reporters wrongfully said I was
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: released or I came back unscathed, unharmed, and so it like, yeah,
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: it was. But in a way though watching it, although
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: it was infuriating, it was also it gave me some
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: level of peace because then it made me realize, like
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: it didn't matter what I did, what I said, if
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: I was dramatic and showed more emotion than they would
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: have referred to the movie and they're like, see, just
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: like or if I had, yeah, physical injuries, they wouldn't
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: have That wouldn't have been confirmation. Then something happened, they
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: would have been like, well, she did it to herself, right,
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: So I was able to release that like self blame
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: that I was holding onto.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: Like you should have done something different, you should have
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: been more emotional. What a joke that you would feel
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: like you had to blame yourself for not reacting in
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: a certain way. I even thought, and I don't know
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: if this is true or not, but the filmmaker or
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: the director they show the actress walking back all bloodied
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: up into her house, and I thought to myself, so
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: they think that she's maybe emulating Gone Girl. There was
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: I don't get it. This is nothing like Gone Girl.
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: She didn't she wasn't being It wasn't dramatic. It was dramatic, obviously,
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: but in terms of like what we saw your outward
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: like what are you talking about?
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: That was I don't know if they did that on purpose.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: The filmmakers kind of like, you know, oh, compare it
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: to this exactly.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, wow.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: So tell me a little bit about when Muller was
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: discovered the officer that that connected him to the case.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: Did you first learn about that? How'd you first learn
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: about that? Was it the news or was it your.
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: Lawyer or oh goodness, well, no, we there's just so
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: many things. We were not staying obviously in Aaron's home
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: because we couldn't return to it. We were like going
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: back and forth long California to my mom's or to
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: his parents, and staying with friends and family. And when
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: we were down in southern California, we got a call
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: from our attorney and said they said that they there
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: might be some new information we couldn't trust it. And
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: right before, actually right before that call, we had found
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: out because Aaron was trying to sell us home from
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: the realtor, that squatters had broken into his home and
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: changed the locks of his home, and the police were called,
• 35:59
  Speaker 4: and the same guy who answered the call for the
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: kidnapping went into the homes like, oh, yeah, I've been
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: here before. They didn't like force the squatters to leave.
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: They were coming with like ups. They's completely cleaned out
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: Aaron's garage, which was like full of woodworking stuff, and
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: so we were like already super stressed about that, and like,
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: are we trying to come back up? And then we
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: hear like, there's this break in the case. They want
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: to talk to you, and I'm like, it's just it's
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: a it's fake, Like they just want to.
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: Have you come in. They're going to arrest sure. Yeah,
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: So we were just like so paranoid.
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: I mean, there's just nothing indicated before then that they
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: were actually doing anything. So we're like, why now, But
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: and my attorney said, absolutely not, do not. You're not
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: stepping in the same room as these agents. But Aaron did,
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: and he with his attorneys and they said, we found
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: your laptop because Muller took his laptop. And then finally,
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: by little we understood little pieces of what happened. That
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: he was caught that for a different crime, and at
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: first it made it seem like the FBI had caught them,
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: but then later we learned it was actually Missy Crusue,
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: a different detective of a different agency, for a different crime.
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: Of course, he attacked another family, and it's just so
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: devastating that that is how the truth came out, that
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: it took more people to suffer for that to happen.
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: But Missy that was like her first case as a detective,
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: and she and she saw the one string on a
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: blonde hair on blacked out swim boggles, and all the
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: victims in her case had dark hair, and she was like,
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: I'm going to keep investigating.
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: Something else happened.
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: And even as she was doing that, we later found out,
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: like even some of her colleagues were like, you're spending
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: too much time on this. We got our guy, like
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: case closed and I think that happens a lot, and
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: she's like, no, what about the blonde hair?
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: And so she kept going and that like.
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: God, thank god steps if yeah, I don't know where
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: we would be.
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: Are you in touch with her?
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, we're we're very close. Our girls have hung out.
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: She has two girls our same around our same age,
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: and they When she finally reached out us, it was
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: twenty eighteen, a few years after the kidnapping, after some
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: of the cases were closed, and we were getting married
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: six months later, so we invited her and her husband's.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: Oh I love that.
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: She talked about how like she was trying to eat food,
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: and there's a line of people close to us like
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: waiting to.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: Think, Yes, of course, I love that.
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah. We went to each other's baby showers like we're
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: we're very much.
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: We have a text chain.
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: I love I don't know her unfortually, I'll probably never
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: meet her, I lovely send her my love.
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: I will.
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: After the documentary came out, How is that? How has
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: it been for you? I mean having to first of all,
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: just kind of to relive it, And do you feel
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: like the documentary was really true to your experience and
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: your story? You know, there are a lot of eyes
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: on you now for sure, And how.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: Has that been?
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: Is it make things harder? Or is it somehow helpful?
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: It's there's there's good and bad with all of it, right,
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: you know. Just even the process of doing the documentary,
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: we knew we would not do it unless we wrote
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: a book about it, because we had already had like
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: a prior experience with a different producer that we we
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: thought we were.
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: Aligned and we were not.
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: They just kind of it seemed like wanted to focus
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: on sensational pieces and not the bigger picture, and we
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: wouldn't go through that and put our families through that.
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: Just to like highlight the bizarre aspects of our case.
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: We wanted to show because so many victims are not
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: believe so many people, like people are falsely accused, misjudged,
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: and it's represented. There's systemic flaws and the interrogation tactics,
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: so many things that impact so many lives that we
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: wanted to make sure we're really highlighted. And so when
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: we eventually got connected with Raw, the production company who
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: did it, we were very clear about what our goals were, Like,
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: we made them work hard.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: Good, it showed, I mean it definitely.
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: And they they were aligned in it.
• 40:27
  Speaker 4: We did not want to do that format of kind
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: of that bait and switch like Aaron did it, did
• 40:36
  Speaker 4: Denise do it? Thing that was like, God, do we
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: have to do that? However, I understand that there needs
• 40:45
  Speaker 4: to be this like really extreme emotional swing to get
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: people gripped and engaged and the well, you know, the
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: it's like I understand it. So it's tricky like being
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: the subject of these types of shows because ultimately it is.
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: Entertainment and we understand that.
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: So trying to trying to find a balance of entertainment
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: and then be still respectful of.
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: The subjects involved is a hard thing.
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: And there were times where we disagreed and we compromised,
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: and like Erin and I at that point, We've already
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: gone through a civil suit, we've gone through court cases.
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: We had no problem pushing back.
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: They were receptive and.
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: They shifted and pivoted, and you know, every individual is different.
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: Who sits in front of them and shares their experience,
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: some people want a little bit more assistance as far
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: as like kind of a script for me. I didn't
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: want to be scripted because I had been told that
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: I wasn't believable and you're a liar, and I'm like,
• 41:53
  Speaker 4: I need to just speak about what happened, and because
• 41:57
  Speaker 4: it was too triggering to like be in a box.
• 41:59
  Speaker 4: So again it's just like this. But in the end,
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: the documentary was so well received. It's all across the world.
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: We've heard from people and people connected with the main
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: themes that we wanted them to connect with, and so
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: it served its purpose and with that we were afforded
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: opportunities that we wouldn't otherwise have. It was the first
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: time after the series came out that anyone in law
• 42:28
  Speaker 4: enforcement invited us to speak to them, and so we're like, yes,
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: I mean that's you know, for almost a decade, we're
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: like we want to work with law right, Like, yes,
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: they are part of our trauma and we have like
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: a certain fear and hesitation around them. But we need
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: law enforcement. But we need good law enforcement with good
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: training who understand the trauma response.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and all this work that you're doing, are you
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: seeing hoping you're seeing really big results? I know you're
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: so dedicated to making these changes, are you.
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: And it's been really encouraging to see members within law
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: enforcement or within the advocacy space who've been working for
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: decades trying to chase or sorry, trying to change the
• 43:15
  Speaker 4: interviewing tactics and trying to show that. And so in
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: a way, it's a really good partnership because in the end,
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: you can feed people statistics all day long and they
• 43:25
  Speaker 4: don't connect with it.
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: It doesn't penetrate. People connect with stories.
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: And so we're like, we'll use us and we share
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: our real lived experience as a helpful learning tool for us.
• 43:39
  Speaker 4: And so it's been really great and honestly, like we've
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: been so hidden. And so the exposure, like, without a doubt,
• 43:46
  Speaker 4: did I had to go back to therapy.
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: I did EMDR therapy.
• 43:50
  Speaker 5: Like I had the there was a lot of trauma
• 43:53
  Speaker 5: came up exposure because at the time, it was so
• 43:57
  Speaker 5: blended with like I'm going to be killed and then
• 44:00
  Speaker 5: I'm released and I don't even feel free, and then
• 44:03
  Speaker 5: who I am?
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: The life that I had, my name right, reputation was
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: then just destroyed. So that level of exposure is just
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: like systemically, like my nervous system was wrecked. But being
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: in person in real life and talking to people is
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: so very different than talking in front of a camera
• 44:26
  Speaker 4: and having someone watch on a screen. Right.
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: You get to see.
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: How people respond and it becomes an interaction and a dialogue,
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: and that human connection piece is so just so important.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting because you said, you know this, it
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: is the storytelling. And when I watch these true crime
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: documentaries and I haven't been watching them for that long
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: to be quite honest with you, but I think they
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: are stories, right, And also there is because you're watching
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: them mont V. There it feels like there's this you're
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: not in it as much, right, It's not you're not
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: living it. It's still on your screen, right, So there's
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: a little separation. But the thing that I think I
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: enjoy about almost all of them that I've seen is
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: finding like the hero in them. And I say that,
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: you know the way that watching you it be so
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: unbelievably heroic, you know, in the face of unbelievable you know,
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: trauma and trial and tribulation and watching how you rose
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: that is, that is was enjoyable for me, right. And
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: to also see Aaron, who again from the beginning I
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: was like this kid. To see him being vindicated, that is,
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: you know, that full circle, that is very enjoyable. It
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: is not enjoyable to see you know, what happened. But
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: I do enjoy crime documentaries, true crime documentaries where I
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: feel like there is movement something, you know, there's a
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: shift in the universe somehow because of what these people
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: have have gone through. And I felt that so profoundly
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: with American Nightmare. And so I'm and I'm also I
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: also feel as if I want to talk to my
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: kids more and they're grown, they're you know, they're going
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: to be twenty four and twenty six, but there's a
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: lot of information here that I want to share with them, yeah,
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: you know, which is such a tribute to you.
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: And I think that that's what draws people to true crime.
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: And then there's some like true crime fans or people
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: who get into it who.
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: May not be.
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: The healthiest thing for them who might have an energy
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: of like chaos. And then yeah, you know, the victim
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: blaming the conspiracy theory is the public shaming all of
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: those kinds with components of it. But a majority of
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: people who watch these who are captivated by these shows,
• 47:08
  Speaker 4: they they've gone through some I mean, let's face it,
• 47:10
  Speaker 4: we've all gone through something horrible in our life that
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: completely disrupts our world and might change the trajectory of
• 47:18
  Speaker 4: our lives. And we're still trying to have to to
• 47:21
  Speaker 4: do our roles as a mother, as a you know,
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: a friend, as a when your profession, like you still
• 47:27
  Speaker 4: have to figure out how to still live with this
• 47:31
  Speaker 4: this disruption. And so I think that that's what people see,
• 47:34
  Speaker 4: and they saw with like our case in particular, and
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: and you know, everyone can understand a little bit of
• 47:43
  Speaker 4: like being misjudged or misrepresented or people.
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: Not like not like that, not like that.
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: So like our case is extreme, for sure, but you
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: can connect with certain components. Yes, yes, And that's why
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: like just continuing to speak out and connect with people
• 48:01
  Speaker 4: I think is just so valuable. Like next month, we're
• 48:04
  Speaker 4: going to be doing a tour with a bunch of
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: other survivor advocates. It's called Crime Unfiltered is the tour,
• 48:12
  Speaker 4: and we're joining with John Ramsey, We're joining with Nicole Schmidt,
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: who's Gabby Betito's mom, Sean Ellis, who is an ex
• 48:22
  Speaker 4: hoonnaie who lost over two decades of his life for
• 48:26
  Speaker 4: a murder he did not commit. I mean, we're trying
• 48:29
  Speaker 4: to That's again another positive of the exposure of the documentary.
• 48:34
  Speaker 4: It has allowed us to connect with so many other
• 48:36
  Speaker 4: advocates out there who have a similar you know, again,
• 48:41
  Speaker 4: every case is unique, but the overarching themes that we've
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: gone through, and then trying to use this awful experience
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: to maybe create awareness, to connect with others who might
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: not have resources to fight, who might not have the
• 48:55
  Speaker 4: platform to speak and be heard, who get lost, who
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: might not have like the family or friends or support
• 49:02
  Speaker 4: to turn to. And again that like being in the
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: same space physically and connecting with people like you think
• 49:11
  Speaker 4: after COVID, and like we live in such a social
• 49:13
  Speaker 4: media like digital world and human like we need each other,
• 49:18
  Speaker 4: We need the vibrations of each other. We need to
• 49:21
  Speaker 4: laugh and cry and and feel like we're we're not
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: alone in this world. And so I'm just I'm really
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: looking forward to having that opportunity with other courageous people
• 49:34
  Speaker 4: and continuing to, i mean, try to get some legislative change.
• 49:40
  Speaker 4: And you know, there's the hard part is is like
• 49:44
  Speaker 4: the more you learn, the more you realize learn a
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: lot of work to do.
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: And so where can our.
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: Listeners go to meet you guys? So you said you're
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: going on tour, So where can we go to hear
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: you in person?
• 49:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so the Crime on Filter Tour for right now,
• 50:02
  Speaker 4: We're going to be in the Midwest in June, so
• 50:06
  Speaker 4: I think it's June sixth and seventh in Chicago, then Milwaukee,
• 50:10
  Speaker 4: and then I think it's the eighteen nineteenth Indianapolis and Detroit.
• 50:16
  Speaker 4: And there's a website just Crime Unfiltered dot com where
• 50:20
  Speaker 4: they can learn a little bit more about each of
• 50:22
  Speaker 4: the people who are participating. You can get tickets on there.
• 50:26
  Speaker 4: But I think that's going to be a really special experience.
• 50:30
  Speaker 4: So I hope for people to come and just connect.
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: I'll come.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, if you come, come to the East Coast,
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: I would love to meet all of these heroes. It's
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: it's extraordinary and I'm sorry I said it already maybe
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: at nauseum, it's this is.
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: You are You are amazing.
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: You amaze me, and there must be makes me feel like, Okay,
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of there's a lot of bad in
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: this world, but there is a lot of good in
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: this world, you know.
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: And that's what is.
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: What I take from a lot of these documentaries is
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: I just look at your unbelievable strength and grace. I
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: just I'm sure I'm not the first person who has
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: said that to you, but and your parents, and your
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: brother and Aaron, and so it's just I'm in awe.
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: Of it all.
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: Do you feel like you still have unanswered questions? I
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: mean I could ask you questions all day, but do
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: you yourself feel.
• 51:23
  Speaker 4: Like, yeah, there's I mean one of the things too,
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: that happened after the series came out.
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: I mean we knew that there was other victims.
• 51:33
  Speaker 4: Involved or not involved, but who other victims of the
• 51:37
  Speaker 4: assailant because he had told me in captivity, we told
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: police about it, and it didn't seem like they wanted
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: to investigate, and so we were able to reopen the
• 51:45
  Speaker 4: case after the series came out with new law enforcement,
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: and sure enough, Muller confessed to several other crimes, his
• 51:51
  Speaker 4: first being in nineteen ninety three or ninety six with
• 51:57
  Speaker 4: he was sixteen years old and.
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: He attacked had a long history.
• 52:01
  Speaker 4: There was another crime that happened two weeks after our kidnapping,
• 52:04
  Speaker 4: when everyone was calling me gone girl, that the family
• 52:07
  Speaker 4: never reported it because they were still living in fear,
• 52:10
  Speaker 4: and that new group of law enforcement was able to
• 52:13
  Speaker 4: find them. But as far as like him and just
• 52:17
  Speaker 4: how many people he's attacked and hurt like, I don't
• 52:20
  Speaker 4: think we'll ever fully know, and we, you know, based
• 52:25
  Speaker 4: on everything that happened, it seemed like there was other
• 52:30
  Speaker 4: people involved in what he did, and I don't I want, I.
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: Want to believe that it's just him.
• 52:37
  Speaker 4: I know all of the victims that he's attacked want
• 52:41
  Speaker 4: to believe that, and I'm hoping that it was just him.
• 52:44
  Speaker 4: It's hard because we know how poorly the investigation was
• 52:48
  Speaker 4: handled at the beginning, and so although there's new eyes
• 52:52
  Speaker 4: on it, they can't investigate what they don't have, what
• 52:56
  Speaker 4: wasn't collected, what wasn't seen. So there's you know, I
• 53:01
  Speaker 4: think the reality is is most victims of violent crime
• 53:05
  Speaker 4: are never fully going to get the answers the why
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: the how, the what, and you have to just settle
• 53:14
  Speaker 4: and accept that and be humbled in this you know, uncertainty.
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, and that's that's hard.
• 53:21
  Speaker 4: But yes, now you somehow make peace with it at
• 53:26
  Speaker 4: the same time trying to find the answers that you
• 53:28
  Speaker 4: can find.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know you have to jump. I'm sorry because
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: I could. My head is sort of spinning right. Like
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: the last question I promise is did you ever get it?
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: Did Mustard ever reach out to you? There was never
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: for anybody for that matter. Was there ever an apology?
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: No, I Mustard will never apologize to us. He I
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: don't know.
• 53:49
  Speaker 4: There's one FBI agent, not the main FBI agent, but
• 53:52
  Speaker 4: one FBI agent directly involved, who we saw at a
• 53:55
  Speaker 4: court hearing, and he looked us in the eye and said,
• 53:58
  Speaker 4: I'm so sorry.
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: I shouldn't. We should have rescued you.
• 54:01
  Speaker 4: We should, you know, And your guys are always in
• 54:03
  Speaker 4: my mind, and that like the difference that makes of
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: like looking I think someone look you in the eye
• 54:09
  Speaker 4: and say I'm sorry.
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: Of course, it is like so huge, and all.
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: The main players, the chief that they just even certain
• 54:19
  Speaker 4: reporters still it's like they just.
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: Can't and won't they don't want to admit to right,
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: and and.
• 54:26
  Speaker 4: That's another thing. It's like, Okay, I'm gonna accept that,
• 54:28
  Speaker 4: and you know, I'm not going to do anything to
• 54:32
  Speaker 4: change their minds. And that's fine. But you just focus
• 54:35
  Speaker 4: on the things that you can control or hope that
• 54:38
  Speaker 4: you might influence.
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: And that's yeah.
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: And listen, listen. I'm sure they're not very fond of
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: this documentary. So good, good, good, Sorry but huh okay,
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: So anyway, I can't thank you enough.
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, thank you for joining us. You
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: are my hero. I wish you all it really it
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: really was.
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: I wish you all good things, all good things to Aaron,
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: all good things to your beautiful girls. Thank you for
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: your bravery. Thank you for joining us. Can you you
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: want to move into my house and be with me?
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: I just like I just I'm in awe of you.
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: Please you have a home, please, please, please, I'm in
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: awe of you. Thank you for everything, thank you. I
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: wish you all good things.
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: Thank you,