Latest / The Christian Reeve Podcast / Nikki Smith | The Christian Reeve Podcast #206

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Nikki Smith | The Christian Reeve Podcast #206 · The Christian Reeve Podcast

0:00
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Christian Reef
0:03
podcast. Now, bit of a disclaimer, before
0:06
I introduced up, my guest, today is gonna be a pretty heavy
0:10
topic. So for anyone who might, there
0:15
might be things in this that you might find upsetting because
0:17
we're going to talk a lot about death and end-of-life and stuff
0:22
like that. So if we obviously we all deal
0:24
with it's part of life. But if this is If you find that
0:30
maybe this topic isn't for you, or you feel uncomfortable about
0:33
it or whatever, maybe give this one a Skip and if you are kind
0:38
of prepared for it and you're happy with it, then just
0:41
exercise precautions, he has his little warning before we get
0:45
into things. So, yeah, today's guest is an
0:49
end of life. Doula.
0:50
I think, I said that, right? And a grief coach.
0:53
Hey, from Columbus, Ohio and name's Nikki Smith.
0:56
Welcome to the show. How you doing?
0:57
Hi, I'm wonderful. Thank you.
0:59
You so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here.
1:02
Awesome, absolutely pleasure. I get really excited that I get
1:05
to do this. I say this all the time it's
1:08
like I'm like a broken record at this point but now I mean it's
1:11
like you said off camera. I mean we share the love of
1:14
sharing people's stories and getting to know people and
1:18
that's a big part of why I love doing what I do.
1:21
Yeah, well I mean that's that's kind of what I want to get into.
1:24
I mean as I said before I got million questions most people
1:27
do. Let's start there.
1:30
Like, what kind of why did you decide to pursue this as a
1:36
career? Like, what was the initial kind
1:38
of, well II mean, I've always been a very passionate person
1:43
about working with the dying and working with the bereaved, which
1:47
sounds weird but that's just I'm a very empathetic person, you
1:52
know, I've suffered my own losses, so having been through
1:54
it, I know what it's like to a point, you know, everybody's
1:58
grief is different. But yeah, I had heard of death
2:02
doulas. Probably a decade or so ago.
2:04
And I just thought, man, that sounds really cool.
2:07
I'd never do that, though, right?
2:11
As like, that's just sounds. So neat.
2:12
I wish I could do something again, but I could never do
2:14
that. And then, you know, fast forward
2:17
to covid, everything, shut down. And that's, that's the time.
2:20
I feel like we were all kind of re-evaluating our lives and what
2:24
we were doing and I just remember sitting down thinking,
2:26
I'm not happy, I've been In Corporate America for my entire
2:32
adult life. I'm in my mid-40s now, and I
2:34
just I'm not happy. I want to do something more
2:38
meaningful and I talked to a life coach and we discussed all
2:42
my passions and what makes, you know, what drives me.
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And this this Doula thing just kept popping up and she was
2:47
like, then just do it already. So I did here I am.
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Wow again, Millions more questions, I know, let's let's
2:58
cut adjusting, it brief. A exploring, your own words.
3:00
What exactly is an end of life? Doula sure.
3:04
So I can do a million different things.
3:08
My broad description is, I'm a companion and a guide for the
3:12
end of life and the dying and their families, their loved
3:15
ones. So I can do anything from just
3:19
helping people put their advance directive paperwork together
3:21
like you're living will find a well power of attorney things
3:23
like that up to holding your hand as you're passing away.
3:29
Making sure your wishes are met like my biggest passion is
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making sure that anybody who leaves this world doesn't leave
3:36
thinking, they didn't mean anything or their life, had no
3:39
impact their life was pointless, like II hate that.
3:43
I that's another reason why I wanted to get to the into this
3:46
line of work. I can't bear the thought of
3:48
somebody dying. Think thinking they didn't mean
3:50
anything. So getting to spend time with
3:52
people to get to know them and help them discover themselves
3:56
like what they meant to the world around them.
3:59
And the people around them is huge.
4:02
And then working with the family after their loved one is gone to
4:06
plan the funeral if they want. Help them process.
4:09
Their grief is a big one because especially, if it's a, the first
4:12
big loss, they've all experienced her.
4:14
First one's always. It's scattering.
4:17
You don't know what to expect. You don't know what's going on,
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just to have kind of a light to guide you along that path and
4:22
say, what's normal? What's not what to expect what
4:25
happens is huge. Have you ever had an instance
4:29
where maybe a person doesn't have immediate family or maybe
4:34
no one around them. And so the challenge then to
4:39
convince them of, you know, self-worth and that their life
4:42
meant something. Excetera was a bigger challenge,
4:44
every been in that position. Not that specific one.
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Pretty much everybody I've worked with so far has had
4:51
family members around them. I have had one client who is was
4:57
older and her. Adult children and she didn't
5:00
get along and it was a matter of trust and I'm not going to force
5:05
relationships on people, if there's no relationship there, I
5:08
can't make it happen. But I can at least, you know, I
5:12
was able to talk to the children and be like, look, this is it.
5:17
This is your only mom and she's going to be gone a couple
5:19
months. I'm not going to tell you have
5:20
to reconcile, but put aside your crap so that she can have her
5:25
last month's go. The way she wants.
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You know, And if you can't be there, don't be there and if
5:30
they were there, it worked out fine.
5:32
It worked out just fine. But it was a little rough
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because I had to I had to be the bad guy for a minute.
5:37
Be like you need to put aside yourself for a minute.
5:40
It's going to sound like how do you begin to kind of be the
5:43
media in a situation that I realize that there's obviously
5:46
can't go to certain details for like pretty serious things but
5:49
like just in general like how did you approach that?
5:52
What did you do? And what steps did you take to
5:54
kind of facilitate that well? And I mean I'll say first of
5:58
all, Hard for me. I'm a very conflict adverse
6:00
person. I hate conflict if you don't
6:03
like it. I don't like being stuck in
6:05
those situations, but I like, I know, I need to advocate for
6:10
this person that wants that hired me.
6:12
Who wants me to be there? You know, I need to add get
6:15
advocate for them. And this is it like, you get one
6:18
deaf right? And I always tell people you die
6:22
once, do it the way you do it on your terms, we don't always get
6:25
that choice. But if we do, if we are lucky
6:27
enough to have those options, Options available, do it the way
6:30
you want, you know. And if other people don't like
6:32
that, that's their problem. Not yours.
6:35
So, it's just a matter of Start, Gentle, like look, here's what
6:39
Mom wants. Here's what you feel.
6:42
We need to try to find some common ground here.
6:45
And if, you know, if I can't find Common Ground, then at that
6:49
point, I just have to say, you have to leave.
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I'm sorry. I can't imagine it.
6:54
Coming blows and I'm not a fighter, but give out to ask
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someone to leave. No, I haven't yet.
7:00
Anyway. Knock on wood.
7:01
I hope I don't have to you. Also mentioned well mention at
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the beginning of this that you're also a grief coach.
7:09
So how does a grief coach differ from an end of life?
7:12
Doula board the differences? So With grief coaching a lot of
7:17
times I'm working with people who have suffered a loss.
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I mean, that's what it is. But I'm not always working with
7:26
the dying person. There might not even being a
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dying person involved. I've had a couple clients that
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are just they just want help processing a non-death case.
7:33
There's non-death grapes, there's everything's grief.
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Any type of loss is a grief, you know, a loss of a relationship.
7:39
I've had a couple of those breakups are hard especially if
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you've been said with somebody for a long time.
7:45
Where it was an amicable, you know, the to helping people
7:48
process that when they may not have closure.
7:52
Yeah, so I'm not exactly getting my hands dirty with, you know,
7:55
end of life and dying but I'm at least helping people process
7:59
what they've lost. Yeah, and I've said this for
8:02
years. So I think relationships are
8:05
very much like, the loss of someone because it's biggest is
8:08
always, a sort of thing of what you don't stop loving that
8:11
person. You just kind of learn to live
8:14
without them kind of And, you know, and I even years later,
8:17
there's always a small part of you that feel, is it?
8:21
Absolutely? As weirdly same is true of
8:25
death. Like, I remember I was with
8:27
family recently and I saw some old photos of someone, some
8:31
people who passed and in particular, as one person, knew
8:35
the past, maybe eight or nine years ago, give or take and it
8:39
was just very somber. Seeing the photos of wow, damn,
8:44
I remember when that was taken. Remember.
8:46
Yeah, just like this mad mad to think, just people just gone.
8:51
Yeah, easy, it's hard. It is.
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And that I tell it sucks, but grief never goes away.
8:58
Like you don't get over grief. It's not something you get over.
9:00
It's not a cold. You just learn to live with it.
9:04
It sounds morbid. And it's not like, oh, I guess I
9:06
just have to feel like crap the rest of my life, but it, because
9:08
it shapes who you are as a person.
9:10
Like, I lost my brother suddenly in 2015 and he was, he was 40
9:15
Years, thank you. He was only 40 years old and I
9:18
mean I'm never going to not grieve his loss ever but it
9:23
doesn't hurt as bad as it did day one.
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Because you know I've learned to live with it and it's changed
9:28
who I am. It's one of the reasons I'm here
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because I've experienced grief and loss so I can help other
9:35
people, you know, understand it, a little better.
9:38
What's your personal approach to grief?
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Like how to eat, how did you sort of approach that situation?
9:43
Well, don't Do as I say, not as I do.
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My first approach is usually to ignore it.
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I know, I know, at least that's how I used to approach grief,
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you know, I would just feel like just I'm just not going to think
9:59
about. I'm going to keep busy.
10:00
I'm going to keep my head down and eventually I'll feel better
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and that's like the worst approach to it.
10:06
No. Actually with with him, it was
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it was helpful to me that, you know, I have my parents are
10:12
still alive. He has two children and Could
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all kind of grieve together, you know, he was somebody that was
10:18
in all of our lives so we can all talk about them and we can
10:22
tell stories and joke about him. Having, you know, other people
10:26
around that have also suffered the same loss to commiserate
10:31
with is huge, it's not always possible.
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Especially if it's the end of a relationship, you know, or loss
10:38
of a pet things like that. You might not have another
10:41
person that lost that thing as well, but talking, About it is
10:45
huge and I'm an open book. I will tell people exactly how I
10:49
feeling most of the time. So it's good just talking it
10:53
out. I will say they're like I kind
10:56
of approach it the same way you do.
10:57
But for me, there's something in like I always turn to work
11:03
things going. Well, work things are not going
11:05
well work. That's always my been my
11:07
Approach and I know that's not always sensible, but something
11:11
about like this structure of it. Like you keep going and like I
11:14
know of Chilly, I will process, whatever that thing is.
11:18
It will just one day in a quiet moment whatever and I'll make
11:21
peace with it. But sure for me, you know, I
11:24
always tell people like if you need a day to like lay on your
11:30
butt and just watch TV and not deal with it or scroll through
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Tick-Tock videos for 4 hours at a time.
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If you need that day, do it you know just don't avoid your grief
11:39
forever because it'll come back whether you want it to or not.
11:43
You mentioned earlier that you worked.
11:45
In corporate. And I'd love to ask some
11:47
questions about that in general. I it bringing it to I could hear
11:52
the total ready related to what we're talking about.
11:57
I wonder, did you ever have any instances or notice any
12:00
instances or maybe even experienced anything in relation
12:04
to grief where maybe a company wasn't so sympathetic to
12:09
something and maybe it's shaped your work that you do now or
12:13
just in general, your kind of perspective on these things.
12:17
Yeah, I mean I see that a lot. I've seen it handled well and
12:24
I've seen it handled poorly back.
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In 2013 guy, I worked with in my department to desks away from me
12:31
was on vacation with his family. Had a massive heart attack and
12:33
died instantly. Wow, he was, yeah, he was very
12:36
in an undiagnosed heart. You know, they didn't know about
12:39
it until he was gone. And he was very young.
12:43
He wasn't even 40. And yeah, yeah.
12:48
And it shook everybody. And I will say the office
12:51
handled it very well. They talk to people privately,
12:55
they left a conference room. Open the like, if you need to
12:57
sit in here if you're want to cry, whatever, if you want to go
13:00
home, go home. Take a day or two.
13:02
They were just letting people take a couple days off you?
13:04
No, no, no worries about that. Just do what you need to do.
13:07
They had a Insular come in to talk with our department and
13:11
they offer the counselor to anybody outside of our
13:13
department that might want to process this loss.
13:16
Because he was, he was one of those people that everybody
13:18
loved. He was so wonderful.
13:20
So it had everybody pretty hard. But I've also seen, you know,
13:26
somebody lose their husband, and they're like, okay, well here's
13:29
your three days of bereavement, then you got to come back to
13:31
work. Yeah, what the hell three days?
13:34
I know. I kidding me.
13:36
I get so angry. When I, when I have to talk
13:39
about this but that's that's the standard is you get three days
13:42
bereavement and you can take all the time you want.
13:45
But you have to use your vacation time.
13:47
That is the biggest Injustice ever.
13:49
I've, it's the same in the UK. Like I mean I don't I can't
13:51
speak for every company but I've seen this a lot.
13:54
Like, what do you mean you have to use holiday?
13:57
Yeah this isn't a holiday this is like yeah this is not a
13:59
vacation for me. I just lost somebody.
14:02
Thanks. Yep, I'll be there as well.
14:05
I remember one time I told the story before but there was a
14:08
Company, very briefly that I worked for, and it wasn't the
14:11
company's, what was the person? But it was a small internship
14:14
and I got it for a family friend and my grandma had died.
14:20
And I went away to their funeral had to start this internship
14:24
late and I was at Uni, at the time and this person was so I'm
14:29
sympathetic. They were like, you know, home
14:32
Christian, you have to understand that it's not
14:34
professional, you know you can't just miss work, did it like
14:38
Isabel, I've worked a job before.
14:39
So don't treat me like a baby. Secondly, someone just died.
14:42
And I remember saying that in the like I was in this meeting
14:45
room and I was trying to be professional because I do take
14:47
that seriously, but I was like, I was like, my grandma just
14:50
died. Like, what do you mean like, I
14:52
already told you ahead of time that like, I I need a bit of
14:55
talk, like, you know, and I was still, was, I knew mentally,
14:58
like it's not like it was that my mom or something, or a dad or
15:01
something passing away like it. But it was, you know, it was so
15:04
sad. It was still, you know, it's not
15:06
great and I had good Memories of this person as well.
15:09
And it was, you know, and just the most unsympathetic person
15:14
ever and I was like, wow, like this is brutal.
15:17
Yeah. That's and that's such an issue
15:19
I have with and it's not just in America.
15:21
I know it's all over the you know, a lot of countries where
15:24
there's a corporate environment of this whole like will work,
15:27
has to get done like I'm sorry you're hurting but work it's
15:31
does it though is anybody going to die?
15:34
Because I didn't you know, upload the newest driver.
15:38
Ivor for the printers, like, really things like that.
15:42
It's just fun. Like, I was guess I get it.
15:48
I don't get it. I don't get it at all.
15:50
I the enemy. And especially, I've seen so
15:52
many companies as well, where you get replaced like that.
15:55
Oh, like you're just, you're just a number.
15:57
You just did, though, you don't matter that company and it is.
16:02
Yeah. So, I mean, like if they're
16:03
gonna treat you that way just quit, man.
16:05
Quit that job. Yeah.
16:07
It's awful. I can't send.
16:10
I'd like you said, not. Every company is like that.
16:11
I won't speak to every company that I've, I know, plenty of
16:14
other places that are lovely places to work, when they take
16:17
very good care of their employees.
16:18
It's just unfortunately not the norm.
16:23
Yeah. Is no idea what she can really
16:25
sell know, is that it's a? Now, it all comes down to the
16:27
company because I've seen some good companies.
16:29
I've seen those one company I worked at where a guy's father.
16:33
I think of passed away or something and they gave him like
16:36
a lot of time off Off and he came back and it was business,
16:40
as usual. You know, we picked up the
16:42
reins. It was a bit harder without a
16:44
member of Staff, but we made it work.
16:46
And no one complained because it was like, dude, like guys dad
16:49
just died. Like come on.
16:51
Yeah, I remember reading and this is an article at who knows
16:54
when it was but there was like a company that was like all happy
16:59
and proud of themselves. A guy had lost his son
17:01
tragically and he they were like, you know, he only got
17:05
three days bereavement and Everybody pulled together and
17:08
donated their days off so he could take like a month off.
17:11
I'm like, that's nice. But you shouldn't have to do
17:14
that. The fact that other people to
17:18
donate time off. Why didn't the company?
17:20
Just say, take a month off. Dude, you lost.
17:22
Like, I think I saw the same case.
17:25
I remember seeing that, like, maybe I'll like LinkedIn or
17:27
something, and they were getting destroyed in the comment
17:30
section. Yep.
17:31
Like this is just like, what did that to me?
17:33
Right there shows you. So it's a problem with a lot of
17:36
corporate America and companies in general, where they're just
17:40
tone-deaf, they're like, oh, oh no.
17:42
Oh, this makes us look really bad and often.
17:45
In those instances, they have to change their policy.
17:47
They're like oh and now we're given two weeks bereaving.
17:49
It's like yeah, you should have done that in the first place,
17:53
you think? Yeah.
17:57
Let's get back to grief. Hey, you stay that your content
18:05
is about be stigmatizing. Grief.
18:08
What are the stigmas concerning grief?
18:11
Well, there's a big one. We just, we just mentioned is,
18:14
you know, you better be over in three days.
18:18
You can't, you can't get over your grief, but we're overall,
18:22
we're just, we're not talking about it and there, as I
18:26
mentioned before, there's so many other Reefs outside of just
18:28
death loss. There's loss of a job loss, for
18:31
pet loss for relationship, and there's a term called
18:35
disenfranchised grief. And those are quote, not
18:37
socially recognized griefs like again, the loss of a
18:40
relationship, a big one. People put in that categories
18:43
lgbtq+ relationships. Okay.
18:47
They don't want to recognize those of real, you know, quote
18:49
unquote, real relationships. And when a relationship ends
18:52
there, it's it's I'm sorry, live in America whoo-hoo.
18:57
For sick would you like companies don't or oh my gosh.
19:01
Yeah a lot that's not the norm. A lot of times you will not get
19:05
bereavement for same-sex relationship.
19:10
Whoa, that's mad. He for real and I am for real
19:17
It's been a while. I'm surprised sorry.
19:18
That just us mad. I can't believe that.
19:21
Yeah, look at all. I'm not.
19:22
And again, I won't speak for every company.
19:24
I'm sure there are plenty of companies that will do that and
19:26
if you're legally married, now that, you know, those that
19:29
same-sex marriage is legal in the United States.
19:32
Thank God. That's at least.
19:34
It's still a spouse that passed away, but if it's like a
19:37
long-term relationship and you weren't married, I mean, even
19:41
like, you know, heterosexual relationships, if I just if my
19:44
husband and I weren't married, but we've been together, 20
19:46
years and he I'd that's considered a boyfriend and
19:49
that's not really in the Realms of bereavement.
19:53
I've never this is all news to never heard this before, like
19:57
this place my mind - all righty about it.
20:00
Yeah, it blows my mind to and I have to, you know, live in this
20:04
is gonna say like I love the time.
20:06
Sometimes from an outsider's perspective looking in, I'm like
20:09
you know, everyone just seems so angry at America about things
20:12
and there's that there are don't get me wrong, so many reasons to
20:15
be legitimately and angry but when I hear some weird and I
20:18
accept it all, it's just crazy, isn't it like yeah you think
20:21
about like these are little Like these are little things that you
20:25
can just tweak and just change and I'm like so many people
20:29
happy and it's, yeah. I mean it doesn't affect you,
20:34
but it affects so many people do not.
20:35
I mean, I went when one person or a government or whatever
20:38
makes this decision. And then it affects so many
20:41
people's lives. And you that what, why is this a
20:43
thing? I don't understand.
20:44
Is, I don't I don't either and like I said, I'm living in the
20:48
middle of it and I don't understand it.
20:49
Like how absolutely Sorry, I just caught me by surprise a
20:56
couple either. That's okay.
20:58
Yeah. So there's just, there's a lot
21:01
of stigma around grief. It's it's a little bit like,
21:03
mental illness, you know. There's a lot of stigma around
21:05
that as well. Like loo that person's got
21:07
mental illness. We can't obvious.
21:09
Talk about it. Yeah.
21:11
I feel like in many companies you can never talk about this
21:15
and we like a deal will be just used against you.
21:17
Yeah. Yeah.
21:19
I hate that. I really hate that.
21:23
Yeah. So there's just and grief to a
21:25
lot of times people are always say scared of it, but it's like,
21:29
oh, that person just lost her husband.
21:32
What do I do? How do I don't be scared?
21:36
There's been stuff isn't contagious?
21:38
That's the oh, yeah. That's if we took an odd, then
21:40
that's something I'm just just assholes, really only?
21:43
But I can understand from the perspective of like if you're an
21:46
employer or boss or whatever and you don't know how to approach
21:49
that like no one's expecting to be a therapist just be Human
21:54
being just to be a human being like, come on.
21:58
Yeah. Just be like, hey, what do you
21:59
need right now? Yeah.
22:01
And like when I lost my brother, my boss was amazing about it.
22:04
Like it was, it happened over a weekend and I sent her an email
22:08
was like, look, I'm not going to be in probably this whole week,
22:11
my brother died, this way happened.
22:12
This what I'm doing? And she was like, you take all
22:14
the time you need. I will because I emailed her is
22:17
like I've got these three meetings set up.
22:18
Can you you know call these people on my behalf and just let
22:22
them know I can't because I He's too emotional to make phone
22:24
calls at that point. I was like, can you please?
22:25
She's like, I'll handle everything I have access to your
22:28
calendar. I've got this, don't worry about
22:29
it, take all the time. You need.
22:31
So hats off to her, she was amazing, it's not.
22:36
And it's nice as well. Like the old companies leather,
22:38
and I want to some good companies to wear that they
22:40
genuinely handle these things and in a really good way, right?
22:46
Just be a human being. That's, you don't need to solve
22:50
The World's problems. Just have a little sympathy.
22:53
Empathy for somebody for the love of God, on your podcast.
22:58
Good grief, great. No, thank you.
23:01
You, you've covered a variety of topics and in one particular
23:05
episode, you covered how to talk to Children about grief.
23:08
Now, please talk us through some of the key strategies and
23:11
techniques that you've discovered for discussing grief
23:14
with children. Absolutely.
23:15
That's a big one because so many people are afraid to talk to
23:18
their kids about grief or death death in general, because it's
23:23
It's it's hard. It's not always easy for us to
23:25
fully grasp as adults, right? And so trying to explain it to a
23:29
kid first and foremost, if you're talking to Children about
23:33
death or grief, be honest. Don't flower things too much.
23:38
I mean, yes, their brains are formed differently.
23:41
They're not fully developed yet, but they understand a lot more
23:44
than we give them credit for, and if you leave too much out,
23:49
they will make up their own conclusions.
23:52
So be honest and to give them the information you have you
23:57
don't have to explain a vivid detail.
23:59
What happened to Aunt Margaret when she died but don't use
24:03
flowery language. Like well she just went to
24:05
sleep, never say things like that because then the kids going
24:09
to be scared, to go to sleep at night either.
24:10
Going to think sleep means never coming back or never waking up.
24:14
You know, don't use euphemisms, they've just be blunt.
24:18
Be honest your you know, answers instead she is now.
24:21
Longer alive much like you know the flowers outside die in the
24:26
winter time, that's what happened with her.
24:28
She's not going to be here anymore, we can remember her, we
24:31
can love her. We can talk about her but she's
24:33
not going to be here anymore. Beyond let them be part of the
24:38
funeral. So many people are scared to
24:39
bring their kids to a funeral because they are further.
24:41
Going to traumatize them. They don't have to go up and hug
24:44
the body. But you know, if it's an open
24:46
casket but bring them let them be part of it.
24:49
Because again, if you make it a mystery like like what's this
24:52
funeral thing? Mommy and Daddy are going to,
24:54
and they don't know, they're going to make up their own
24:55
conclusions, and the ganas are going to have a crazy
24:58
imagination and get it wrong. And that's going to cause more
25:02
trauma than just explaining to them.
25:04
What happened? Yeah, couldn't agree more with
25:07
that. You also did an episode on
25:12
suicide prevention. Yes.
25:14
Please share a little bit about what you discovered in your
25:16
research and what you discussed on that shit.
25:19
So, I actually volunteered At the suicide hotline here in
25:23
Columbus for wow, two two and a half years or so.
25:27
So I have a bit of a training and background in suicide.
25:30
Prevention. That's a big one.
25:32
And that's another one people are very scared of because
25:34
somebody says something in passing that indicates, they
25:39
might be suicidal and they get scared and they're like, oh God,
25:41
I don't want, I don't want anything to do with this, but
25:44
you can't do that. You have to engage that person.
25:48
If you do know somebody, you might be suicidal like talk.
25:51
Talk to them, don't just be like, oh gosh, I'm so sorry.
25:57
Talk to them. Like well, what's going on?
25:59
Tell my three words, you can say to anybody is tell me more.
26:04
Somebody's like I just can't, I can't live like this will tell
26:07
me more. What's going on?
26:09
Why do you feel you? Can't keep going and let them
26:12
talk because nine times out of ten, they just want to be heard.
26:15
Most of the people I spoke with that called The Suicide Hotline.
26:18
Just wanted somebody to hear them because they're alone.
26:22
Everything just feels so dark and scary.
26:24
And they just feel so isolated. And to just have another human
26:28
being recognized that they exist and that they care is.
26:33
That's enough to not you Bring them off the proverbial ledge.
26:36
Sometimes you questions here. Yeah.
26:41
Is there any particular phone calls that stand out for you?
26:45
Any particular reason that I don't know, maybe you're able to
26:48
really help someone or that would particularly challenging
26:51
something like that. There were, there were a lot of
26:55
very challenging calls. We would get people that I
27:00
tended to work overnight, like midnight to 6 a.m. wow.
27:03
So a good chunk of the calls. I got were people who were
27:07
drunk, maybe just got in a fight with her significant other.
27:11
Or we're just having a bad week and got really drunk and that
27:13
made things worse. Because alcohol is a depressant
27:17
and they were just feeling alone and I had one guy called me
27:21
while he was driving drunk. And I'm like, please please just
27:26
pull over. I won't call the cops.
27:28
I don't know who you are. I don't know, I don't know.
27:30
Your name, your driver's license.
27:31
I don't know your license plate numbers.
27:33
I don't know where you are. Please just pull over.
27:35
You're not going to get in trouble.
27:37
Please, stop driving and it took me 10 minutes to convince him to
27:40
just pull over that. Scares me more than anything.
27:45
But yeah I was I was able to get him at least a calm down.
27:49
He he refused to call somebody to come pick him up so what?
27:53
After that, I'll never know if he continued to drive home or
27:58
what, but like, uber is a thing people just call a ride home,
28:04
you know? But a lot of calls were very
28:08
frustrating. You get somebody that just
28:09
refuse to want to get help. It's like, well, you called me,
28:13
you must something in. You must want help.
28:16
I'm thinking, you know, is you're not doing okay right now.
28:24
How did you sort of process that?
28:26
Because I mean you mentioned that you volunteered to do that
28:29
and I think whatever someone volunteered their time within us
28:32
as a certain thing about that / stand and what they're prepared
28:36
to do and how they want to help people and such.
28:38
But we're talking about something that's very It's very
28:43
heavy, you mentioned at the top of this that, you know, you're a
28:45
very empathetic person and that factors in.
28:47
But like, I can't help. But think there must have been
28:50
many days when you came back from that and it was a lot to
28:53
take on. Like, how did you post us that?
28:55
How did you deal with that? Well, I had at least my first
28:59
six months, when I was working overnights every single week, I
29:04
had an amazing shift partner. There were you there at least
29:07
they try to always have to people sometimes three, which is
29:09
Never Enough. Especially for the overnights,
29:11
we were just Calls constantly, but if we had a moment, we could
29:15
debrief with each other and that was huge because I could I could
29:18
see on his face when he had a really bad call.
29:20
And I, you know, try to wrap up what I was doing and be there
29:24
when he hung up. So we can talk to each other.
29:26
That's huge just like oh my God, this just happened.
29:29
You know. I just talked to us and to
29:31
encourage each other did what you you know, you did the right
29:34
thing. You handled it.
29:35
Well, they're okay. That was huge working overnight.
29:40
I came home and I was so exhausted.
29:42
Costed, I would just fall asleep like immediately and sometimes
29:47
just sleeping it off. I would still wake up and be
29:49
thinking about some of the people that called, like, I
29:51
would have calls here there, that I would think about, for
29:54
days, on end, you know? But at the end, I have to sit
29:58
back and say, I did my best. I did what I could and they're
30:01
safer, you know, they're not, but I know I did, what I could.
30:07
there were times when I did volunteer work where I
30:10
volunteered at a charity that help the homeless and people in
30:14
poor income families so I saw a lot of different stuff and some
30:19
of it to this day sort of sticks with me and Part of it was
30:25
frustration. Certain people not looking after
30:28
the people part of it was frustration at Society
30:32
government, whatever your other things would just like
30:35
heartbreaking situations that you see, there was a lot of good
30:39
that we did as well that we were able to do.
30:41
But it it really kind of grounded me in a way, I'll never
30:45
forget because There's a lot that you take for granted in
30:49
life, I think, and it's very easy to be in that position and
30:53
take things for granted. But Huh.
30:58
Yeah, sometimes these I think especially when you're a very
31:02
empathetic person, you're very sensitive to things, things,
31:05
just sit with you. Like, you know, sometimes I'll
31:07
see a particular TV, show will be a particularly horrid thing
31:11
that happens in it and it will just sit with me and you
31:14
remember watching something with my Dad recently and he shut it
31:19
off Midway and as I had come, you did that and he was like,
31:22
well, something we often tend to forget is that like Ike.
31:27
While we are watching something that's not real, our brain can't
31:31
necessarily tell the difference, like you're able to suspend your
31:34
disbelief, but you the way you feel about it is maybe the same
31:39
as how you would feel about it, if that thing was really
31:42
happening. And so you have to kind of treat
31:45
it accordingly and give yourself a break and if it's making you
31:47
feel that way, stop watching. Yeah equally I think certain
31:53
things in life if you feel like you can't sort of deal with it
31:56
in that moment. And take a step away, come back
31:58
to, it's okay. Yeah, there's no shame in that
32:01
and that's what I tell people. Again, like I said earlier, if
32:03
your grief if you need a day to just avoid it and watch TV and
32:07
your jammies and, you know, play games on your phone or
32:10
something, go for it. If that's going to help you get
32:13
through today, good, go for it. And the green wall in your own
32:20
words because you've spoken about this before.
32:24
What is a parasocial relationship parasocial
32:30
relationships? That one's fun.
32:31
So that was I was a new thing. I had just kind of learned about
32:35
it's and it's been in existence for a very long time, but the
32:41
term was coined in the eighth I forget.
32:43
Now got me off guard with support is 1900's in the first
32:46
time, this came up, but yeah, it's when you feel like you have
32:51
a relationship with somebody, you don't actually know in
32:53
person. It was a, I always, I always
32:57
decide that I always do my research before a show, but then
33:02
sometimes I'll have all this stuff and then I'll forget about
33:05
our come back to my notes and then I'm reminded of it yet
33:07
again, but they're going. So yeah, yeah.
33:10
And it's becoming a, like more prevalent with social media and
33:14
podcasts like ours and YouTube shows, you start.
33:18
Following a podcaster, a show or something.
33:20
And you feel like you're friends with those people even though
33:23
they don't No, you they've never met you my husband, and I
33:27
watched through, I've watched through twice, the Supernatural
33:30
TV series, it's my favorite shows 15 Seasons right?
33:34
So by the end, when I'm like, Dean and Sam are my Big
33:37
Brother's but they don't. First of all, their characters,
33:40
they're not real. You know, the what the no real
33:42
what will I do? I'm sorry.
33:43
I'm so sorry to break that to you.
33:45
They're not Dean and Sam. Winchester are not real people.
33:48
They are to me you, but it's broken.
33:50
So many dreams right now. I hope you realize that Then I
33:55
watched it there a second time with my husband during covid
33:57
because he wanted to watch. He's like well I got all time
34:00
then the world now. So is it was he just like what
34:02
is this catch episodes? When I was watching through and
34:06
he's like, well, this is interesting like you should
34:08
watch it but start from the beginning and he just didn't
34:10
have the time until he was laid off.
34:14
Yeah. Like at the end of it and then I
34:16
won't spoil anything about how the show ends I really won't.
34:19
But like, you know the show's over it's like I kind of felt
34:24
like Like, I lost my friends. My two big brothers.
34:26
David say, I can go back and re-watch a third time if I
34:30
really want to. But but this people will form
34:34
these, you know, relationships with celebrities TV show Stars
34:39
musicians, like I said, this this has been around forever.
34:42
There are people that back in prehistoric days it's or they
34:46
had a relationship with with God's, you know and maybe
34:50
there's God's, don't know who you are, things like that.
34:52
Like, when you You form a bond with somebody who doesn't know
34:56
you. Hello.
34:58
This is really obvious question, but I have to ask it anyway, why
35:01
do you think that people form parasocial relationships
35:04
especially with, like, celebrities or particular?
35:07
I don't know people that they're just interested in.
35:10
Why do you think that occurs, well in?
35:12
This is just my personal opinion.
35:14
I'm not basing this off of research, but If I were to use
35:17
an example, like I said, my brother died in 2015 and
35:21
obviously that was very devastating to me.
35:23
My cat died a year and a half ago and I'm sure she would.
35:28
She was 19 years old. I had her my entire adult life.
35:30
I cried more when my cat died. Then I did when my brother died.
35:36
That doesn't mean I love my brother, any less or you love my
35:40
cat more, but she was in my life every single day for almost 20
35:46
years. Years.
35:47
And I mean, my brother who was in my life longer than that, you
35:49
know, I knew him the whole, you know, 40 years, whatever.
35:53
But but he wasn't in my life, every single day.
35:59
And it's, it's like, if you were to, if your office would have
36:03
burned down, it would be, that would be weird, right?
36:06
You don't have an office to go to anymore and what a job.
36:09
If your house burned down, you live in this house every single
36:13
day. It's done.
36:16
It's just my own theory is like when you have these, these
36:19
people that are kind of in your life all the time and in your
36:23
senses and your vision, your, your hearing, like, whatever the
36:27
they're just become part of your, your David, your daily
36:30
life. Like I listen to a ton of
36:31
podcasts and I feel like a lot of these podcast people.
36:34
Like, oh, that's my old buddy, but they don't, they don't know
36:36
who I am. I'm finding this recently, as
36:40
well because people, yeah, I'm a fairly open book but I keep a
36:44
lot of stuff private as well. I do like regular live streams
36:47
and such. So I got a little Community
36:48
going and people seem surprised that I'm an introvert ha.
36:54
And because like, who I am on camera is not, it's not a lie.
36:59
I keep I try to keep it authentic as much as possible,
37:02
but this is like one layer, you know, if I was an onion it's one
37:05
layer. It's not the whole.
37:07
Yeah, I know. You know, and it's, I don't
37:09
know, it's interesting because you show different parts of
37:14
yourself to certain people. And in the previous episode, we
37:19
spoke a lot about not previous episode.
37:21
They always appearing when someone sharing recently I get
37:23
mixed up, we spoke about acting and roles in the part of it is
37:27
like acting in a way. It's, you know, you're assuming
37:29
a role, whatever it is. Husband, father mother daughter
37:34
employee-employer like it's all roles and sometimes. it's like,
37:39
So if you go to Boston, you have to appeal to The Human Side of
37:43
them, you're essentially asking them to step outside of that and
37:47
become them become who they are and then you see a different
37:50
side to them and it's like a different person and I think
37:53
it's the same with this. It's like when you sometimes,
37:55
when you meet your Heroes, maybe you don't want to meet your hero
37:59
because maybe the real them or the day-to-day them is not the
38:03
person. You didn't Vision yeah which can
38:05
be devastating us suppose. Yeah.
38:10
Yeah. 15 season show ends and they're not there anymore, your
38:19
living room that's especially hard as well because it
38:22
represents a point in time. Like I like to go back and watch
38:27
How I Met Your Mother at this think.
38:30
So, I've watched it again soon. I know I'm like Lily and
38:38
Marshall are my buddies like like the writers really put
38:43
themselves in the back, man, there's beautiful show, but the
38:45
thing that's interesting about it is, it started in 2005 ended
38:49
in 2013, so it's largely kind of a 2000 show or, you know, early
38:53
2010's and it's in capital, h, capital H, so much of that time
38:58
period that when you watch out a time now it's like all of the
39:02
life lessons are there it still holds up it always will its kind
39:05
of Timeless and that sense but there's a lot of stuff that's
39:09
you kind of had to be there as far as like the time of it but
39:14
that's what brought Jaws out than the Stallard doing is same
39:17
as that distance song, your favorite movie?
39:20
Yeah, my husband and I would we were early dating watch through
39:24
all of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Yeah, that was.
39:26
So enjoyable. Yeah.
39:28
We'd watch has been watching Angel too, and at the end of it,
39:31
I made a joke. I was like, I feel like I'm
39:32
losing my friends but in, you know, it's also a Nostalgia
39:35
because like we were dating at that point.
39:38
Like we're kind of a A new new in our relationship, you know?
39:41
And now, we're just guard always couldn't at school because it's
39:45
like, is part of you. As part of your soul, is part of
39:48
our relationship history! Awesome!
39:52
Awesome. Yeah, I wouldn't ask this guy
39:56
for this girl off, you mentioned in your emails to me that a
39:59
midlife crisis, brought you to the point where you are now,
40:02
please tell us more about that, okay, I keep calling it, my
40:08
midlife crisis, I'm saying that's what it is because well,
40:13
I guess I said I'd been working in Corporate America for pretty
40:16
much my entire adult life. And I've just came to the
40:19
conclusion like I'm not I'm not happy and Now's the Time, you
40:23
know? Like I'm none of us are
40:26
guaranteed tomorrow, right? But also it's like if not now
40:29
when like if I don't do this now, when will I ever do it?
40:34
I'll never get the courage if I don't just do it.
40:37
Yeah, so I guess you could Call it a midlife crisis other than
40:42
covid-19 there a particular maybe even before where it just
40:45
clicked and you're like, yeah I just need to do that.
40:48
I know you said you were talking to life coaches and so there's a
40:50
few different things to happen in.
40:51
But was there like a particular moment where you were just like,
40:53
maybe in the office and you're like no way.
40:56
No way. There's been a lot of those
40:59
emotions. A lot of those but I can
41:03
remember a couple like a and I was in the it field and just
41:08
people Getting so upset about the dumbest things and my like,
41:17
this one page won't print. And I'm, they're kicking the
41:19
machine. It's like that machine cost more
41:21
than your annual salary. Please don't do that.
41:25
The machine is the metaphor for, oh, that life, struggles.
41:27
Come on. Oh, I know, but it's somebody
41:31
screams. You don't despair sleeping.
41:36
I keep saying for fundraiser, we need to take an old machine out
41:38
and let people. People hit it with a baseball
41:40
bat, but I got to get people to call like they are like I the
41:45
new iPhone came out and I want it right now and it's like,
41:49
dude, there's like a two-week. Wait, period.
41:51
Just chill the eff out just but they're, they're like, do you
41:55
tonight? And then I get the whole like
41:57
you know who I am mentality with later.
42:00
Oh I mean nobody's ever said that they have that whole like
42:02
well in my role at this company it's like okay you know what?
42:07
Shut up. I never said that, but I'm just
42:11
like, dude, shut up. You're not better than me.
42:14
Just because you have a title like It's crazy.
42:19
Isn't it? Like that people live in these
42:20
rows and then like they lose their job or whatever?
42:23
And suddenly it's like, oh no. Yeah.
42:26
Who are you? It's that sense of entitlement
42:28
that I just don't get in. That is rampant and a lot of
42:33
corporate environments, not all of them, but in so many, it's
42:36
like, okay, you're a baby and yes, you have a stressful job
42:41
but don't treat other people like crap because of it, calm
42:45
down. Agree more.
42:48
Okay, I've tried my very best to kind of structure this show in
42:52
because I like to go in a kind of like Flow State kind of
42:55
thing. Okay, but one thing that I've
42:57
had recently is the wonderful support of Vilma.
43:00
Thank you Velma, shut up to you and she always sends me.
43:03
Awesome, awesome questions. She's very passionate about the
43:06
show. So, thank you so much.
43:09
Now she sent me a lot of questions and I don't always get
43:13
to like, aren't that ask all of them.
43:15
Okay, but she sent me. Some really interesting stuff.
43:17
So Bill minutes from Greece and well, I'll read what she said.
43:22
When you told me that you were having an end of life, Doula on
43:24
the show, I found it really exciting because I wasn't
43:27
familiar with the term. And at first, I thought it was
43:29
someone that helps patients with euthanasia or assisted suicide
43:32
like they do in Switzerland. I also thought the same thing.
43:35
I was curious the Dual apart seemed familiar to me and I
43:39
thought that it might be derived from the Greek word, Doula, or
43:42
dual air, which means a woman who serves or maidservant, fun
43:46
facts. My second name is spy radula,
43:49
which actually means maidservant of Spira.
43:51
Didn't, who is actually the patron saint of our Island?
43:55
I hate the name, by the way, despite this, that's what she
43:59
said. I did say that.
43:59
She said that. Okay, she looked up and yeah,
44:02
basically, it means friend in death, someone who serves
44:07
humanity. And I just thought that was
44:09
really cool to share, so I thought I'd share that before.
44:12
But she's yeah, she sent over some really, really cool
44:14
questions and Run through some of them if you're okay with that
44:19
I'm open. Let's do it.
44:21
Is there anything that you cannot do or you're not allowed
44:25
to do as an end of life? Doula I'm not a nurse so I can't
44:31
administer medicine, okay. I volunteered a hospice as well.
44:35
And I've worked with in hospices and I'm not allowed to move
44:39
patients depending on where I'm at.
44:43
If I'm in a facility like in a nursing home or In a hospice
44:48
facility. A lot of times they won't allow
44:50
me to help feed the patient. Yeah, that's something that
44:55
technically requires special training.
44:57
If you're within the facility, it's probably a liability issue.
45:02
If I'm in somebody's home and they want me to help them eat.
45:04
I will help the meat. But yeah, I can't administer
45:07
medicine. I can't advise on medicine.
45:10
I'm not a doctor. I'm not a nurse and I'm not a
45:11
pharmacist and you mentioned assisted.
45:16
I don't know if that's a question down the road, so I
45:19
won't spoil too much, but that's not legal, at least, not on
45:22
Ohio. And even in the places where it
45:24
is within the United States, it has to be done by, I can be
45:28
there, I can hold your hand but I can't do anything else, right?
45:32
That's understandable, you mentioned that sometimes being
45:36
in people's homes and stuff, did you ever sort of temporarily
45:39
perhaps live with someone whilst that was going on or something
45:42
like that? No, I've been in and out a lot
45:46
but I've never I've never liked slept on the couch or anything.
45:49
Yeah. I suppose it maybe it's an
45:51
appropriate. Maybe not, I don't know, it's
45:53
straight with persons if it's yeah it depends on who it is.
45:56
If it's just random client I would not that would be a
46:00
boundary. I personally wouldn't feel
46:01
comfortable Crossing but if it's like a friend of a friend or a
46:04
friend yeah I would if the need was there.
46:08
So have you done it with friends before?
46:11
Yeah. I've ever like stayed like
46:13
long-term? No no.
46:14
But I did, I had one client who Daughter was a friend of mine
46:18
and she was living like her mom was in her house while she was
46:22
dying. And she, they called me because
46:26
they were like we were overwhelmed, I can't do all this
46:29
and they just lost their dad, the year prior to cancer and I
46:33
came over and I was like, when was the last time you took a nap
46:37
or a shower? And like that's part of my job
46:40
to is, is caregiver. Respite like give them a break.
46:43
I gave, I offered her the key to my house.
46:45
I'm like, leave Because her mom was in her house dying and I'm
46:49
like, I understand this is your home, but you need to separate
46:52
yourself right now, here's the key to my house.
46:54
If you want to go take a shower. Here's where the towels are.
46:58
If you want to take a nap in my bed, the sheets are clean.
47:00
I don't care. Play with my cat.
47:02
Watch some Netflix leave, you know, so I've offered my home to
47:07
somebody, but she was also a friend so I wouldn't do that for
47:11
any client. I get it, I get it.
47:16
What kind of Training does one need to go through in order to
47:19
become a end of life. Doula so the training I did was
47:25
through and Nelda which is the international end of life Doula
47:28
Association and they're here in the United States but they train
47:32
people all over the world. I was in a training class of
47:35
like 80 people. I think it was virtual and there
47:38
were I mean, people in India Scotland.
47:42
There's a lady in Australia. So yeah, they train all over the
47:45
world, they can do it. Virtually aureum, they are back
47:48
to doing in-person training to their are.
47:52
The University of Vermont has an online program.
47:54
I believe it's like a full College course so it's, you
47:57
know, several weeks long but there are some other companies
48:01
and organizations out there that would do smaller trainings.
48:04
But there are training programs available.
48:06
There's no overarching certification program right now.
48:10
There's no governing board over this.
48:12
This isn't like being a nurse or a hospice worker.
48:16
So, Really just faith on these organizations.
48:19
Now, the one I went through and Nelda has been in existence
48:22
since the 80s. I think I want to say maybe the
48:26
late night, they've been around for a long time, they know what
48:28
they're doing. Most of them have backgrounds in
48:30
hospices and are like the experts in end-of-life work.
48:36
But yeah, it really. There's there's several
48:37
trainings. You can do either online or in
48:39
person and that's I mean the one I did was eight weeks.
48:44
I think I was eight weeks, it was two to three nights a week.
48:46
Okay and then Sunday afternoons for like six hours.
48:50
So it was a lot of hours, there's a whole lot of training.
48:53
A lot of research you have to do on your own, a lot of reading, a
48:55
lot of materials to go through but yeah, that's it.
49:00
There's no like college course. You have to take yes because I
49:03
suggesting because it sounds like something that you might
49:07
need training for but then I guess it could also be something
49:10
that especially one might be able to do it but at the same
49:13
time you do need some sort of prep.
49:16
Did I mean you need satellite? I think emotionally that's the
49:19
puppy. The biggest thing you need to
49:21
write mostly people and I mean end of life Doula has existed
49:25
before these training programs did and it was mostly just
49:27
people that like I've been I've been working in So most of move
49:31
in hospice nurses or some of the trainer's just had the most
49:36
amazing backgrounds and some of the best stories, but they're
49:40
just so like, I've worked with the dying, I know what to do.
49:43
And then, you know, it's a matter of putting all their
49:45
knowledge together as far as what you need to fully service a
49:49
client. How does one find and hire a Neo
49:56
end of life doula Well, there's most people.
50:00
The people are found me either just know me and know I do this
50:04
or Googled end of life. Doula Columbus Ohio.
50:08
I feel like that's how most people have found anybody that
50:10
there is a, Nelda the organization.
50:14
I got my training through, they have a directory on their
50:16
website, go in and filter by country by state by City.
50:19
And you can find if there are trained to doulas that have gone
50:22
through their program in your city state country.
50:27
Yeah, but just Google it. I mean.
50:30
There are a lot of us out there. Most people don't realize it
50:32
like, oh, you're the only one around here.
50:34
I'm like, no. There's like seven and Columbus
50:36
alone and like a dozen in Ohio. So, we'll simmer.
50:42
Do you ever get emotionally attached to patients?
50:46
Is that ever happened? I mean, yes.
50:49
But no, yeah, I mean, like I said, I'm an empathetic person
50:56
and I'm obviously doing this line of work, because I care.
51:00
If I didn't care about people, this would be a really stupid
51:03
profession, not to the point where it's interfering with my
51:09
work. I had a, the daughter of a
51:14
client asked me once. Like how on God's Earth you do
51:17
this because She's very empathetic person to we're
51:19
talking about that. She's like, I don't know how you
51:21
do this and I said, well in the nicest way possible?
51:24
That's not my mom. I mean, this is hard for you.
51:27
That's your mom, is your only, you know, the only mom you have,
51:30
and, and she's dying at. I mean, she's a lovely human.
51:34
She's beautiful. And I love everything about her,
51:36
but it's, that's not my mom. So, it's a little easier for me
51:41
to separate myself. Because it's, I do become close
51:44
to my patients, absolutely. But at the end of the Day.
51:50
How do I, how do you keep that attachment?
51:51
How do you keep it? Because I mentioned this must be
51:55
a really tricky role in the sense that you have to be very
51:58
empathetic. You have to kind of develop some
52:01
sort of relationship with your clients, but you also have to
52:03
keep it professional. So how do you maintain that?
52:06
How do you achieve that? Well, I don't sleep on their
52:09
couch, bring that back is gonna hold me to that.
52:16
No, I know. I I will spend time with my
52:22
clients but I'm not with them day after day after day, a lot
52:25
of times like I've had a client I guess I still have a client
52:29
that I helped get everything together for them for the last
52:32
days of my life, but there they don't have a diagnosis.
52:34
There have no real reason for them to be dying in the next few
52:39
years. So I might not see them again
52:41
for 5 to 10 years if I ever do. See them again, at least got
52:45
them paperwork together and help them with either their written
52:49
plan. What they want there and of
52:51
life, but I might not see them again but you know, I'm not
52:56
spending 18 hours a day 7 days a week.
53:01
With, with most of these clients, a lot of times I'm in
53:04
there, At the end I might be with them every single day for
53:08
45 days depending but in the beginning I might only see them
53:12
once a week. For a month or two and and then
53:18
at the end every day for a week or so, but it's a little easier
53:21
when somebody's not it. Like I was talking about earlier
53:23
with my cat versus my brother always.
53:25
I love them both, I very strong feelings for both of them but
53:28
the cat was in my life every single day she was a big chunk
53:31
of my life. My brother was not.
53:36
How do you go about sort of saying your good-byes and
53:41
ceasing kind of ending with a client because obviously person
53:47
passes away, you might be there for that.
53:49
You might not how do you approach that?
53:53
Like how do you clean it? Generates its saying like how do
53:56
you going to end up process? I mean, I'm always invited to
54:00
the funeral and Generals funerals are big.
54:04
It's a good way to Have closure, do you go to go to them or I
54:09
have for most of them? Yeah.
54:12
Okay. Because you know I lost that
54:14
person to maybe not to the degree that you know, some of
54:18
the other folks, they're dead. But there's only one.
54:21
I there's one I couldn't go to because I was traveling that
54:24
week but Yeah, I'll go to the, if I'm invited, I will go to the
54:30
funeral. I won't just show up.
54:33
I guess it depends. I've never had.
54:34
I've never had anybody. Like, I never want to see you
54:36
again. I'm sure if I just came to a
54:38
funeral. They would be fine with that,
54:40
but that's big just having that I take.
54:44
Copious notes. I take ho Pious notes, but along
54:47
with that, I keep a personal Journal, which is separate,
54:50
which is my thoughts and feelings about this client.
54:53
How a my interactions with them? Have gone?
54:55
What I learned from it. And just having that I can sit
54:59
down and write out my final thoughts.
55:01
And just journaling has always been a big part of my life.
55:03
I love. I love journaling.
55:05
I've got a stack of filled up notebooks behind me.
55:10
Yeah, so just keeping my notes and writing out my thoughts and
55:13
feelings. There's a lot of professions
55:16
similar to yours that exist in society where a person is kind
55:19
of surrounded by a lot of death and it just it just heavy stuff.
55:25
Like how I know I've asked a little bit earlier but I just
55:28
want to kind of get like a definitive answer here.
55:30
Like how do you Deal with so much being surrounded by so Much
55:37
Death. Like how do you been to the
55:39
handle that and process that? So again I keep a lot of notes
55:45
and I keep a journal which helps me just process my thoughts.
55:49
If I'm if I'm with other Doulas or other hospice workers.
55:55
I can talk to them. We can kind of debrief each
55:57
other much like I talked about with working at the suicide
56:00
hotline. I could talk to my shift
56:01
partner, just talking about that a little bit.
56:06
Yeah, talking it out with with myself.
56:09
Sometimes I come over and talk to the cat that works.
56:14
I mean you know, awesome. Are you allowed to keep in
56:20
contact with a patient's family after the patient has passed
56:23
away? That's one of the sticky ethical
56:28
questions with yes but no. And it really depends on the
56:32
situation. Again, if it's like a friend,
56:35
then obviously, I'm going to continue to have contact with
56:37
them. It's not always appropriate.
56:41
Yeah. And again there's that
56:42
separation because I need at some point.
56:44
I need to close the book on this.
56:47
Otherwise I'm going to be carrying all these deaths around
56:49
with me forever, you know, I can't do that.
56:52
So I for me, I need to close that.
56:55
And put it on the shelf, so to speak.
57:00
So, it's just a matter of I'll work with the, I might work with
57:05
the family, if they want me to after the death, just to help
57:07
them process. Their grief, two or three times.
57:11
I will, I will personally check on them even if they don't want
57:15
me to like, do a grief session or have, you know, have a
57:18
conversation at least check in on them.
57:21
I'll send a letter like a handwritten note, handwritten
57:23
card like again, thank you. So, So much for letting me be
57:26
part of such a intimate space in your family and you know, any
57:29
final thoughts I have and I'll mail that off and I'll check in
57:32
on them, maybe one more time like six months out and then
57:35
after that, I just have to stop a nobody's, nobody's contacted
57:39
me past that. So it was going to ask it, like,
57:42
have you had instances where you've had to kind of Double
57:47
back or something like after six months if it had other though,
57:50
something had happened down the line or something.
57:53
I have not had that experience myself.
57:55
So no fair play. Fair enough.
58:00
Has your work change the way that you perceive death or the
58:04
way that you view life. Yeah.
58:08
Yeah, I would think so. I mean, yes.
58:12
Yes. Seeing death gives you a new
58:17
appreciation for life, and that's something I've shared
58:22
with a lot of people like If you, if you've ever lost
58:26
somebody in your life suddenly somebody dies unexpectedly.
58:30
There's a thought of wow like my life could end at any moment and
58:35
you kind of gained a new respect for that's when people want to.
58:38
Like I'm just going to quit my job and do this thing or you
58:42
know, I'm going to buy that house.
58:43
I always wanted to because God, I might die tomorrow and there's
58:47
nothing wrong with that. It's I consider it a gift to.
58:51
I mean, what makes life so amazing and special.
58:54
Socialist, just how short it is, you know, and having just seen
59:02
so many and just all the interactions with the family and
59:06
the loved ones and hospice workers, who just stopped
59:10
everything to be with. This person is so beautiful and
59:14
it's we talked earlier about all of our grapes.
59:16
And I there's so much I hate about the world we live in but
59:19
seeing moments like that. Gives me so much more hope and
59:24
so much more love for the world around me because that exists
59:27
like yeah, things are crappy. A lot of people hate each other.
59:30
We only get three days of bereavement if we lose somebody.
59:33
But there are these moments of just utter Beauty and love out
59:39
there that happen every day. I'm only part of a handful of
59:44
deaths here and there these are happened like multiple a day.
59:50
It's the maze. I think the word that you do is
59:52
absolutely incredible. I just want to sit on a side
59:54
now. I just think it's really,
59:56
really, it's special. Honor to me.
59:59
I get a lot of. How can you do that?
1:00:01
Oh my gosh, it must be so awful. But and I mean, sometimes it can
1:00:05
be, but overall, it's an honor and I'm I feel honored that
1:00:09
people would invite me into such a Sacred Space.
1:00:13
We've got an interesting question here.
1:00:16
Are you afraid of death? I've been asked that before.
1:00:22
Yes. But no.
1:00:24
I especially this one of the things having been around it a
1:00:28
bit and experienced my own losses.
1:00:30
I've accepted that I what I am going to die.
1:00:32
I know that I hope everybody can learn to accept that and I'm
1:00:39
like, if something happens tomorrow, I'm mentally prepared
1:00:44
for that. I don't want it to happen,
1:00:46
obviously. And I don't know how I'm going
1:00:48
to die. Most of us.
1:00:49
Don't and that aspect scares me for sure.
1:00:53
Like, you know what, if I get hit by a bus, is it going to
1:00:58
hurt like hell? Like am I going to play there?
1:01:00
That's what am I gonna lay in the street and pain for 20
1:01:04
minutes? Say like yeah, of course.
1:01:06
That part scares me. I would scare anybody and none
1:01:10
of us know what happens after so that.
1:01:14
I mean, I'll be honest, that scares me a little bit.
1:01:16
I don't know what's going to happen when I'm gone.
1:01:18
I Have my thoughts and my ideas. But what are your thoughts?
1:01:23
Maybe only afterlife? What comes after?
1:01:26
I mean personally, I think I hate saying this.
1:01:31
I don't think anything happens. I think we just go to sleep.
1:01:34
I mean can you can you remember what happened before you were
1:01:37
born? Oh yeah, totally.
1:01:38
So basically what happened today?
1:01:42
Yeah, no, you're right. I mean, I thought about this
1:01:44
too. I mean, I just can't imagine
1:01:48
like Our Consciousness going to some other.
1:01:53
I mean, maybe that does happen, I don't know.
1:01:55
But in my brain I just my rational side of me just says we
1:01:59
we just stop existing our energy might go out.
1:02:03
I feel I feel like parts of our spirit continue to live on for
1:02:06
sure their parts of my brother that I feel like are still with
1:02:09
me and will be with me and you know, I love I like to hang onto
1:02:14
that I'm opening parts of the good parts of me will continue
1:02:18
on when I'm gone. The conversations that you have
1:02:21
with people, is their kind of nearing the end like what the
1:02:25
most common things that people tend to say to you.
1:02:27
And yeah, it specifically with things like this like with their
1:02:31
own mortality after death Etc. Low or the come most common
1:02:36
things people say. Most people are pretty calm
1:02:42
about things especially if it's been the end of a very long
1:02:46
battle with an illness. They're tired and they're ready,
1:02:53
almost everybody have talked to is said I'm ready, you know I'm
1:02:58
ready for this to happen, anyone that one I have worked with a
1:03:07
couple of families that contacted me after the person
1:03:10
was gone because they died unexpectedly and they didn't
1:03:13
know what to do and they didn't know how to process it and it
1:03:17
just it rattled them to the point that they just needed
1:03:19
somebody to kind of hold their hand and say, it's okay, you
1:03:22
know, just kind of help them work through their grief and the
1:03:28
logistics of like, what the heck to do?
1:03:32
There's a lot of red tape, a lot of paperwork involved.
1:03:34
Up with that. Yeah, to see.
1:03:38
It's a real. Now I hate to say it but it's a
1:03:39
real pain in the ass that really is big.
1:03:43
Oh my God, the one thing I will tell anybody that will listen,
1:03:47
get your paperwork together. Now, I don't care if you're 22
1:03:51
years old right up a dam will and get your, especially Health
1:03:55
Care, power of attorney. Oh, my God, if you are
1:03:58
incapacitated and you can't make your own choices.
1:04:01
Yeah, if you don't have somebody to speak for you then it's just
1:04:05
going to be the doctors doing what they think is best and that
1:04:07
might not be what you want. Have you ever had like to help
1:04:11
with some light? I'd only be disputes in that
1:04:13
area. Like, well, maybe a will wasn't
1:04:16
sort it out or something. And how did you thankfully?
1:04:18
No, thankfully that has not been an issue for me, I'm it may come
1:04:22
up eventually someday but and I don't I'm not an attorney.
1:04:26
So I know we'll stuff I don't. I'm usually it's like you guys.
1:04:31
You got your Together. Here's an attorney that can help
1:04:33
you buy, that's where things get sticky.
1:04:37
You never know how people are going to react when somebody
1:04:39
dies. I hate it because that's when
1:04:42
people get emotional and bad things can happen.
1:04:46
Unfortunately. Was there any particular moments
1:04:50
that may be surprised you in the sort of aftermath of someone
1:04:54
passing away with that? You were present for No no
1:04:59
nothing has now and I won't get it.
1:05:04
I won't go into details because I don't want to get too gross,
1:05:07
but and plus HIPAA. But when somebody is actively
1:05:12
dying, it's it's a little different for everybody.
1:05:15
But there are a lot of commonalities and I have seen
1:05:20
people just slowly stopped breathing.
1:05:23
And I have seen gasping for breath to the very end.
1:05:26
Like I've seen some Not so pleasant deaths.
1:05:31
And yeah, that's another part of my job is just preparing family
1:05:37
and like if you were going to be present when they died, first of
1:05:40
all, ask yourself if that's really what you want and ever is
1:05:44
a course that's what I want. Like well understand especially
1:05:47
if it's a spouse or somebody super close to you.
1:05:51
Once you witness that you can't unwitnessed sit and I can't
1:05:55
promise you. It might be.
1:05:57
It might be beautiful baby. Peaceful.
1:05:59
They might just slowly pass away.
1:06:01
They might go out gasping for air at the very end.
1:06:07
Gross things happen. Well, I wouldn't know how to
1:06:10
process that myself, and I mean, I'm never like, okay, it's like,
1:06:16
okay, well, that's, that's that's going on right now.
1:06:19
But it's up to me to, you know, keep my head about me and be the
1:06:24
be the centering because that's people panic to you.
1:06:28
It's, you watch if you're watching somebody suffer, it's
1:06:32
called do something. Do something, do something?
1:06:33
It's like, no, this is natural. It's not pretty, but it's
1:06:36
natural. You have to just let it happen.
1:06:42
Wow, let's move it forward a little bit.
1:06:46
What would you advice to someone wishing to become an end of life
1:06:49
Doula? Make sure it's really what you
1:06:54
want to do. This isn't the type of work for
1:06:56
everybody, and I would recommend if you really are passionate
1:07:01
about this. Like I said, there's tons of
1:07:03
training available, try reading a little bit out at first, you
1:07:06
know, there's tons of books out there on the subject matter find
1:07:10
that a lot of people have blogs about it.
1:07:12
As much as you can really get all the information, try
1:07:15
volunteering at a hospice. They're always hospices that
1:07:18
need help, right? There I've said, I've heard
1:07:22
stories about people that want to volunteer at a hospital like,
1:07:24
oh my mom was at this hospice center.
1:07:26
It was the most beautiful experience.
1:07:28
Everybody just great. I want to volunteer their, I
1:07:30
want to help too, and then they're there.
1:07:31
And they're, like, I can't handle this.
1:07:33
This is too hard, so make sure you're up to the task, but I
1:07:38
feel like anybody that wants to do this, this kind of work is
1:07:41
somebody that can do this line of work.
1:07:44
So yeah, hit the training man. It's amazing.
1:07:47
You will meet the coolest people.
1:07:51
The final questions for you completely unrelated to today,
1:07:54
just I ask every guest these questions.
1:07:56
Okay? What's the best advice you've
1:07:59
ever received? Don't take everything too
1:08:03
seriously. I used to think I was one of the
1:08:06
I was always kind of a goofy kid, but I would take things way
1:08:09
too personally and way too seriously all the time and I had
1:08:13
multiple people if it didn't click for a while, but just
1:08:15
constantly stop taking things. So, seriously, that, that was,
1:08:20
that was huge for me, and that's advice.
1:08:23
I give to other people to like, you can't like I painted this
1:08:27
room, bright blue, like who does stuff like that.
1:08:31
I think it's brilliant, but we passengers, especially with the
1:08:34
You in the blue. I appreciate.
1:08:35
This are my favorite colors. So I like neon colors.
1:08:41
What's the biggest life lesson you've learned so far?
1:08:46
If you want to do something, do it.
1:08:50
You know, I hate to sound cliche or tooting my own horn about
1:08:53
like, you know, I leave in Corporate America to do this
1:08:56
dream of mine, but I've seen more than one person in my life
1:09:03
died unexpectedly. So none of us are guaranteed
1:09:07
tomorrow and that's a cliche, you'll hear a thousand times,
1:09:09
but I've seen it enough. Now that I know I'm not
1:09:14
guaranteed tomorrow. None of us are.
1:09:18
And my God, if you want to do something in your life as long
1:09:22
as it's not hurting another person obviously within reason,
1:09:25
but do it. Don't wait, don't say well, I
1:09:28
don't know maybe next year, maybe 10 years from now, if it
1:09:32
makes sense and it's smart and you're not hurting anybody and
1:09:35
got nothing to lose, do it. Oh my gosh, life is too short.
1:09:39
Again, these are all cliches but holy crap, they're so true.
1:09:43
The Great Wall. It's been an absolute pleasure
1:09:46
thank you so much for being on the show.
1:09:48
I really appreciate your time. Thanks for having me.
1:09:51
This has been great. Thank you.
1:09:53
Is there any upcoming projects that you'd like to share or some
1:09:57
final thoughts that you'd like to share with our listeners?
1:10:00
Just I you mentioned my podcast earlier.
1:10:04
Yeah, I love to have more time just so passionate about talking
1:10:09
about grief and letting people know they're not alone.
1:10:11
So So yeah, if you're in the Columbus Ohio area I have a deaf
1:10:16
Cafe once a month. Yeah, you could buy that on my
1:10:21
website, Nikki the depth of the.com death cafes are just
1:10:25
open conversation. People can come in, we gather
1:10:27
together and just talk about all things death and dying related
1:10:30
in a non-judgmental environment. So it's just a nice place where
1:10:33
people can talk about things. They might not be comfortable
1:10:36
talking about with their co-workers or their family
1:10:39
members. Yeah, been a real pleasure.
1:10:43
Thank you so much, honestly, and that's it.
1:10:47
Yeah, I'd love to have you on the show again, it would be an
1:10:50
honor. Thank you.
1:10:52
And that's all the listeners of the Christian re podcast.
1:10:54
As always, I hope you've enjoyed this episode.
1:10:56
Be safe, be well, go out there and live your life to the best
1:11:02
of your abilities. Amen.
1:11:04
Thank you. See you in the next one.