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The False Hope of Indulgences and Purgatory | John Calvin · Reformed Thinking

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Welcome to a new deep dive. Hi there.
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Yeah, we're taking a close look today at some really interesting
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source material. A listener sent this in
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actually. That's right, and it centers on
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some pretty significant theological debates back in the
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Reformation era. We've got writings from a major
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thinker of the time, plus some helpful notes that kind of
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summarize the arguments. And the focus specifically is on
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his critiques, his arguments against two doctrines that were,
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well, very prevalent back then, indulgences and purgatory.
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So our job today really is to walk through these materials.
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We want to understand the core ideas being presented.
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Get why this thinker found these doctrines so problematic based
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on his analysis, you know? And pull out the most striking
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points for. You exactly think of it as sort
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of getting the essential information quickly.
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So you can grasp the key arguments, the ones presented in
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the sources, against these specific ideas.
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And see what the sources suggest was really at stake in these
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debates. OK, let's unpack this.
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Sounds good. Let's start with indulgences.
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Then based on what our sources layout as the, let's call it the
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Romanist understanding at the time, how did they define them?
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What were they supposed to do? Well, the sources define
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indulgences in a way that's really tied into a specific
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theological framework of that period.
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They were presented as something that could quote supply what our
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powers lack. Lack in terms of what?
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In making satisfaction for sins. Now that term satisfaction is is
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really key here. It wasn't about the eternal
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guilt which was forgiven through confession and absolution, about
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the temporal punishment or consequences believed to still
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be due for sins even after that forgiveness.
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OK, so not about getting forgiven in the 1st place, but
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dealing with the leftover punishment or debt, something
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like that. That's the idea presented, yes,
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And indulgences were framed as the way to cover this lack, this
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remaining debt. And how?
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What was the mechanism according to this view?
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According to the system described in the sources, it was
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through the distribution of the merits of Christ and the
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martyrs. The merits of Christ and the
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martyrs. Interesting.
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Yeah, and these merits, the sources explain, were then
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dispensed typically by the Pope, often using official documents
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they called bulls. OK.
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Distribution of the merits. That sounds an awful lot like
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this concept. The sources bring up the
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treasury of the Church. It's precisely linked to that,
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yes. The sources describe this
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treasury as well the accumulated merits of Christ and the holy
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apostles and martyrs. It's accumulated merit.
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The idea, as the sources present it, was that Christ's merit was
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of course infinite, but also that the martyrs and apostles,
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through their own suffering and dying for the faith, had somehow
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done more well, rendered more to God, and deserved more than they
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needed for themselves. Like they'd overpay their own
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account. That's sort of the concept,
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yeah. They had this reservoir, this
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great surplus of merits is how the sources put it.
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And this surplus could then theoretically overflow to
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others. A kind of spiritual excess, like
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funds in an account you could draw on.
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That's the way the sources describe the underlying concept,
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the supposed theological basis for the doctrine.
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And who managed this? This spiritual bank?
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Who held the keys? The sources are clear on that
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point. They state it was ultimately
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controlled by the Bishop of Rome, the Pope.
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He was said to have prime custody of the storehouse I.
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Have custody. And he controlled how its
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contents were dispensed. He could do it directly or he
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could delegate that authority. Delegation.
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So that explains why there were different kinds or levels of
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indulgences being offered. That's what the sources
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indicate, yes. You had a hierarchy.
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The Pope himself would grant the big ones plenary indulgences,
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which were supposed to remit all temporal punishment, or maybe
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ones for a set number of years. Then Cardinals they might be
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authorized to give, say, 100 day indulgences, and bishops could
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grant 40 day ones. So a very structured system for
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distributing these these supposed benefits from the
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Treasury. Yeah, clearly structured
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according to the sources. Now the sources don't just
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define the doctrine, they also give us a feel for the
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historical context and the criticisms being made at the
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time, even beyond the purely theological ones.
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What kind of picture do they paint of the environment?
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They paint a pretty stark picture, actually.
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The sources describe the era as one where humanity had been, and
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this is a quote immersed for centuries in a deep night of
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errors. Wow, deep night of errors.
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Yeah, and this atmosphere, they argue, allowed practices like
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indulgences not just to exist, but to really to flourish with
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unrestrained and furious license.
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So it wasn't just some obscure theological point, it was
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widespread. Very widespread, according to
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the sources, deeply embedded in the church's life at the time
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and seemingly, you know, out of control.
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And the sources are quite blunt when they describe the practical
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abuses connected to this aren't. They oh, extremely blunt.
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They use very strong language. They talk about what they call
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lucrative trafficking. Yeah.
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Whereas salvation, or at least relief from temporal punishment,
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was essentially treated like something you could buy and
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sell. With the price tag.
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Exactly, The sources say it was reckoned at a few coins nothing
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offered free of charge. They even say people were openly
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and undisguisedly held up to ridicule with their souls
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salvation, the object of lucrative trafficking.
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That's a really potent image. Buying and selling something
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scene is so essential. It is, and the sources.
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They don't hold back on the details.
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They give specific, quite graphic descriptions of how the
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money raised through this system was allegedly spent.
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They claim these offerings were filthy or spent on whores, pimps
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and drunken revelries. Goodness.
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So the critique wasn't just theological error, but suggests
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we'll profound corruption tied up with the practice.
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That's certainly the picture painted in the sources, yes,
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that the practice itself became intertwined with serious moral
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and financial corruption. There's also that that striking
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comment the sources make about the promoters themselves.
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Yes, that's a particularly sharp observation, the assertion that
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the greatest trumpeters of indulgences hold them in most
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contempt, meaning the sources suggest that even the people
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most actively pushing indulgences didn't actually
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believe in their spiritual value.
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It implies an internal awareness, maybe even cynicism
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among some proponents, that the whole system was flawed, perhaps
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even, you know, fraudulent. So according to these sources,
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it wasn't necessarily seen as just an honest theological
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difference of opinion. It was mixed up with base
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tricks, deceits, thefts and greediness.
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That's the overall picture of the sources construct a system
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built on certain theological claims which, whatever their
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original intent might have been, had become in practice deeply
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entangled with money, power, and, as they describe it,
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immorality. But getting to the absolute core
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of the critique, the most fundamental objection presented
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in these sources, it seems to be theological.
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It's that central claim that indulgences are a profanation of
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the blood of Christ. That really is the heart of it.
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That's the most serious charge, the sources level against
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indulgences. They call it a satanic mockery.
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Strong words. Very.
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And, they argue, it leads people away from God's grace and from
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the true way of salvation. OK, but why?
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Why is it seen as a profanation, A desecration of Christ's blood
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specifically? What's the reasoning?
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This is where the critique really cuts deep.
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The sources explain it like this.
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Indulgences, by their very nature, they argue, deny that
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Christ's blood is sufficient for the forgiveness of sins, for
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reconciliation, for satisfaction.
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Deny it sufficiency. Yes, unless, and this is key,
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unless the lack of it be otherwise supplied and filled.
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The doctrine as interpreted by this critique inherently implies
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that Christ's sacrifice, his blood shed on the cross, is
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somehow incomplete. Inadequate.
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Or as they phrase it, dried up and exhausted that it needs some
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something else, something additional to supplement it or
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finish a job. So rather than seeing Christ's
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work as totally complete, finished, providing full
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atonement and satisfaction, indulgences implied, there's a
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gap, a deficiency that human merits or martyr merits have to
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fill. That is the absolute core of the
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theological disagreement presented in these sources.
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And to really drive this point home, the sources then layout a
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series of specific scriptural comparisons.
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They highlight what the Bible seems to attribute uniquely to
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Christ, and then they contrast that directly with what the
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indulgence system attributes to others, especially the martyrs.
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Right, let's walk through a couple of those.
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What are some key examples the sources use?
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OK, well take forgiveness of sins.
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The sources point to Acts 10 verse 43, which says forgiveness
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comes through him, meaning through Christ you trust alone.
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But they contrast this with the claim that indulgences granted
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forgiveness through Peter, Paul and the martyrs via that
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treasury. OK, so the source of forgiveness
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gets shifted in their view. What about cleansing from sin?
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Similar contrast. First, John 1.7 says very
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plainly, The blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin.
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From all sin. Right, but the sources are argue
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that indulgences, by drawing on this mixed treasury of merit,
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effectively make the blood of martyrs the cleansing.
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Again, a substitution martyrs blood for Christ's blood.
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How about the concept of satisfaction for sin?
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Well, the sources look at 2nd Corinthians 5.21.
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Christ, who knew no sin being made sin for us, so that in Him
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we might become the righteousness of God.
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This is seen as the foundation of satisfaction, Christ taking
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our place Right indulgences, conversely, according to the
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sources, lodge satisfaction in the blood of martyrs.
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They locate the satisfying element partly at least
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elsewhere. And the idea of who died for us.
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The sources bring up First Corinthians 1.13 where Paul asks
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rhetorically, was Paul crucified for you?
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The obvious answer being no. Christ alone was crucified for
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us in that atoning way. But indulgences?
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The sources argue that indulgences, by relying on the
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martyrs merits earned through suffering and death, implicitly
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or even explicitly declare Paul and others died for us, at least
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in a sense that contributes redemptively to this treasury.
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What about the purchase of the church itself?
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Acts 20.28 says Christ acquired the Church with His own blood.
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The sources argue that by establishing this treasury of
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martyrs merits as a necessary component for dispensing grace
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through indulgences, the system effectively establishes another
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purchase price in the blood of martyrs.
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Adding another price alongside Christ's blood.
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That's the critique, and it continues with sanctification.
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Hebrews 10.14 says by a single offering Christ perfected for
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all time those who are being sanctified.
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Perfected for all time. But the sources see indulgences
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as contradicting this, essentially proclaiming
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sanctification otherwise insufficient, is perfected by
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the martyrs through the application of their surplus
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merits. And one more that image in
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Revelation about washing robes. At Revelation 7.14, it describes
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the Saints washing their robes white in the blood of the Lamb.
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The sources argue that the indulgence system, by drawing on
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the merits and blood of the Saints from the treasury,
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implicitly teaches that people wash their robes in the blood of
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the Saints. Wow, so across the board.
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Forgiveness, cleansing, satisfaction, dying for us,
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purchasing the church, Sanctification, purification.
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The sources see this consistent pattern.
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Exactly a pattern where, in their view, the unique role and
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the absolute sufficiency of Christ's work is undermined,
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diminished or transferred at least in part, to others within
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the doctrine and practice of indulgences.
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It's really striking when you layout those scriptural
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comparisons side by side like the sources do, they actually
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call the whole concept of the treasury of the Church an
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astounding blasphemy. That very strong language just
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reflects how deeply they objected to this.
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The very idea that martyrs could accumulate a surplus of merits
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more than they needed, that could then overflow to others,
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and especially the notion that their blood could be mingled
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with the blood of Christ to form this treasury that for the
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sources fundamentally diminishes the unique, singular, all
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sufficient power of Christ's sacrifice.
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Mingling human blood with Christ's blood in that kind of
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redemptive treasury context. Yeah, that does sound incredibly
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jarring, hearing it framed that way by the sources.
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They use phrasing like that deliberately, I think, to under
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score the perceived sacrilege. Their argument is that this
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system, by bringing in these other contributors to the
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Treasury, essentially reduces Christ to only a name.
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Just a name. Making him seem like quote, a
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common saintly who can scarcely be distinguished from the others
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in the whole scheme of salvation.
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Whereas the sources insist, based on their reading of
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Scripture, that he alone must be looked to for forgiveness, for
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expiation, for sanctification, full stop.
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Now, you mentioned earlier that the sources also address
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specific Bible verses. They were actually used to
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support indulgences. They spend some time on
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Colossians 1.24, right? Yeah.
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How does the critique tackle that one?
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Yes, Colossians 1.24 was definitely a key text for
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proponents. That's where Paul writes.
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In my body I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions
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for the sake of His body that is the Church.
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Complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.
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You can see how that might be interpreted.
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Exactly. The argument made was that
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Paul's sufferings, and by extension the sufferings of all
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martyrs, were literally adding to or completing Christ's
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afflictions and thus contributing to this treasury of
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merit that could then be dispensed through indulgences.
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So interpreting Paul's suffering and martyr's suffering as
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contributing to Christ's atoning work, his redemptive work.
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That is precisely the interpretation the sources are
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arguing against. The critique clarifies that Paul
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is not talking about any deficiency in Christ's
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redemptive work on the cross. That work is seen as absolutely
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complete, perfect, finished. So what is Paul talking about
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then? What's lacking?
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He's talking about the afflictions that believers, as
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members of Christ's body, inevitably have to face in this
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present world as they live out their union with Christ.
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Christ identifies so closely with His Church, His body, that
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He considers these afflictions endured by His members as
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afflictions endured in His body, which is the Church.
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OK, so the sufferings aren't completing the atonement
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achieved by the Head Christ, they are the suffering still
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being experienced by the members of the body here on earth.
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That's the understanding presented.
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And when Paul adds that phrase for the sake of his body, that
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is the church, the sources explain this means for the
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church's benefit it's up building and advancement, or for
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the sake of the elect hearing the gospel and being saved.
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Any other scripture cited to support that interpretation?
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Yeah, they point to places like Tim and Timothy 2.10 where Paul
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says he endures everything for the sake of the elect, that they
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also may obtain the salvation. Or Second Corinthians 1.6 where
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Paul's suffering leads to the Corinthians comfort and
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salvation. It's about the fruit of
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suffering and ministry and witness, not adding to the price
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of redemption. And Paul's role over all.
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His role, they argue, based on the next verse in Colossians
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1.25, was primarily to preach the gospel, to administer God's
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Word, not to perform some supplementary redemptive work
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himself through suffering. Do the sources bring in any
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historical backup for this view? You mentioned Agustin earlier.
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Yes, they definitely lean on Augustine here to reinforce this
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interpretation. They quote him explaining that
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the sufferings of Christ are in Christ alone as in the head, in
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Christ and the Church as in the whole body.
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Ah, head and body distinction. Right.
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Augustine helps clarify that Paul is supplying what's lacking
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in Christ's sufferings in the members, the suffering the body
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still goes through on earth. It's not about completing the
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suffering of the head for atonement.
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And they note, Augustine also strongly taught elsewhere that
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Christ alone is the price of our salvation.
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Paul preaches Christ, but Paul's suffering doesn't add to that
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redemptive price tag. So what's the bottom line from
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the sources on this Colossians verse argument?
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The sources conclude that the idea that Paul thought anything
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was lacking in Christ's sufferings in terms of achieving
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righteousness, salvation in life is just completely unfounded.
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Based on a careful reading, they insist that Paul in his other
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writings, clearly and grandly preaches that Christ so
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bountifully poured out the richness of grace that it far
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surpassed the whole power of sin.
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So circles back to grace again. Always, therefore, the critique
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reasserts, salvation is purely by God's mercy, received through
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Christ's absolutely complete work, not by trying to
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supplement his afflictions with any amount of human suffering.
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This whole critique of indulgences focusing so heavily
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on the sufficiency of Christ's work seems to set up a really
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sharp contrast with the gospel itself, doesn't it?
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The sources make that contrast incredibly explicit.
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They put it very starkly. Obviously, either the Gospel of
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God or indulgences must be false.
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Wow, one of the the other. They argue they simply cannot
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coexist as truth because they offer fundamentally different
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ways of receiving God's grace and salvation.
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OK, so how does the gospel, as understood in these sources
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differ so fundamentally from the indulgence system?
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The sources explain that the way God intended grace to be
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distributed wasn't through some kind of people storehouse of
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merits, but through the word of the Gospel.
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Through preaching and hearing. Exactly through the gospel
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message, Christ Himself is offered with every abundance of
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heavenly benefits, with all his merits, all His righteousness,
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wisdom and grace, without exception, it's presented as a
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complete, absolutely free, unlimited offering of Christ and
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everything He is and has done. And indulgences by comparison.
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Indulgences in this critique are described completely
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differently. They draw from the Polk's
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storehouse some modicum of grace, a small measure.
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A modicum. Yeah, and it's presented as
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being attached to physical things or specific conditions,
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lead, parchment and a certain place.
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And critically, the sources argue this system fundamentally
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tears it away from the Word of God, because the gospel is about
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receiving the absolute fullness of Christ freely, simply by
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trusting the promise in the Word.
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Indulgences, in this view, are about receiving a limited,
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measured out portion of grace tied to physical objects,
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specific locations, and a hierarchical distribution system
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separate from that direct, free promise of the gospel.
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It's a different economy of grace altogether.
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It's probably helpful to touch on the origin story here, too.
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How do the sources say this practice even started and
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evolved into what was being critiqued?
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Yeah, the sources trace a kind of historical development
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suggesting the abuse crew out of something that was initially
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different. They talk about the early church
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imposing sometimes severe penances or satisfactions on
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people as part of church discipline after serious sin.
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Right public penance. And sometimes these penances
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were incredibly rigorous, maybe severe than all could bear, as
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the sources put it. So people naturally sought some
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relief. Exactly.
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They would ask the Church authorities for a relaxation of
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the imposed dependence, and this remission, this easing of the
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required earthly discipline, was originally called an indulgence.
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OK, so initially it was about lessening church imposed earthly
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discipline. That seems to be the starting
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point described, but the sources pinpoint a really critical shift
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in how these terms were understood and applied.
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And that's where the problems came in.
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That's where, according to the sources, the system really
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transformed and the blasphemies, as they call them, entered
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first. Opponents allegedly
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reinterpreted satisfactions. Instead of being primarily about
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church discipline, they were presented as being owed to God.
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Owed to God. Yes, as compensations by which
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men redeemed themselves from God's judgment.
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So penance shifts from being mainly church discipline to
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being seen as paying a debt directly to God.
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OK. That's a big shift.
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Huge. And at the same time they
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converted those indulgences, which were originally just
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easing earthly penance, into expiatory remedies.
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Expiatory remedies meaning. Meaning things that were
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supposed to free people from their deserved punishments,
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understood now as divine punishments.
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Both the temporal consequences in this life and significantly,
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punishment after death. Which leads us right towards
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purgatory. OK, so a system for easing
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church discipline somehow morphed into a perceived way to
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pay off a debt to God and free souls from divine punishment,
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including potential punishment after death.
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That's exactly the historical progression the sources outline.
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And it was this fundamental transformation, they argue, that
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led directly to all the theological problems discussed
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earlier, especially the undermining of Christ's complete
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sufficiency and the whole invention of the treasury of
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merits. You know, thinking about this
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whole discussion on indulgences, from how the sources present
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their origins to this really fierce critique based on
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Christ's sufficiency, what does it really highlight for you?
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Does it illustrate that tension between relying on something
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human made versus something presented as solely from God's
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grace? Oh, absolutely.
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It vividly demonstrates what can happen, or what the sources
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argue happen when theological ideas get tangled up with, you
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know, human systems, financial incentives or attempts to
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somehow quantify or manage or distribute divine grace.
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The critique presented here basically sees the whole
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indulgence system as a drift away from simple direct reliance
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on Christ's free gift received by faith through the Gospel
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Promise towards what? Towards reliance on a complex
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human managed apparatus involving merits, a treasury,
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papal authority, specific documents, payments.
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It throws into really sharp relief the difference between a
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view where salvation is entirely God's gracious work received by
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faith alone, and one where human actions or suffering or
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institutional mechanisms are seen as necessary additions to
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complete or supplement what Christ did.
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It makes you think about where your reliance truly lies.
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And that historical development you mentioned, where easing
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church penance eventually became linked to freeing souls from
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divine punishment, well, that provides a pretty Natural Bridge
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to the second big doctrine. The source is critique.
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It absolutely does, because purgatory, in the view being
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critiqued by these sources is completely tied up with that
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same idea of needing post mortem satisfaction and purification
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from sin. It's the next logical step in
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that trajectory, isn't it? OK, then let's shift our focus.
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Purgatory. Based on the sources, what was
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the understanding of this doctrine that they were engaging
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with? The sources present the view
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they're critiquing the Romanist view of their time as
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understanding purgatory as a specific place, or maybe a state
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after death, and its purpose. It's where satisfaction for sins
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is paid by the souls of the dead.
22:35
Paid after death. Yes, the stated goal being to
22:39
cleanse away the filth of sins that we may enter into the
22:41
Kingdom of God as pure men. So it's framed as this necessary
22:46
intermediate stage of purification and payment through
22:49
suffering before a soul is actually ready for heaven.
22:53
And just like with Indulgences, the critique from these sources
22:57
is, well, incredibly strong, right?
22:59
They call it a deadly fiction of Satan.
23:01
Yeah, the language is just as forceful, maybe even more so.
23:03
Deadly fiction of Satan. It leaves absolutely no room for
23:07
doubt about their assessment. And they list some pretty severe
23:09
consequences they see flowing from this doctrine.
23:11
They do. They claim it nullifies the
23:13
cross of Christ. That's huge.
23:15
They say It inflicts unbearable contempt upon God's mercy, and
23:18
it overturns and destroys our faith.
23:21
These are not minor accusations. Nullifying the cross of Christ?
23:25
That's about as serious as it gets.
23:27
Why? Why is purgatory seen as such a
23:30
dreadful blasphemy against Christ in these sources?
23:34
Because, and here's the recurring theme, the fundamental
23:37
objection is rooted once again in the sufficiency of Christ's
23:41
finished work. The sources absolutely insist
23:44
that the blood of Christ is the sole satisfaction, soul
23:47
expiation, the soul purgation for the sins of believers.
23:51
Period. The soul satisfaction.
23:53
Yes. So by proposing the state after
23:55
death, where souls still have to pay satisfaction or undergo
23:58
purification to their own suffering, the doctrine of
24:00
purgatory in the sources view is inevitably seeking expiation and
24:04
purification elsewhere than in the blood of Christ.
24:07
It's just the locus of purification.
24:08
Exactly. It transfers the responsibility
24:11
for final satisfaction and cleansing away from Christ's
24:14
completed work on the cross and onto the suffering of the
24:16
individual sin after death. And this, they argue, logically
24:20
implies that Christ sacrifice wasn't actually fully effective.
24:23
It wasn't sufficient to cleanse believers from all sin and
24:26
satisfy all the demands of divine justice against them.
24:28
So that same core objection we saw with indulgences, that
24:32
Christo's work isn't seen as fully sufficient and need some
24:35
kind of supplement, applies just as strongly here to purgatory.
24:39
That is precisely the connection the sources make.
24:41
They see both doctrines as springing from, or at least
24:45
promoting this same underlying assumption that something more
24:49
is needed beyond what Christ accomplished.
24:51
And they also critique how the doctrine of purgatory even
24:53
arose. Yes, they criticize its origins
24:55
too, claiming it was devised apart from God's Word in curious
24:59
and bold rashness. Apart from God's Word.
25:02
They argue it relies more on things like alleged revelations
25:06
forged by Satan's craft visions, or private revelations and
25:09
scripture passages that have been ignorantly distorted rather
25:13
than having clear, explicit support from the Bible itself.
25:16
Right. They even bring up the
25:17
prohibition against inquiring of the dead, like in Deuteronomy 18
25:21
point mana, suggesting that some of the supposed revelations
25:25
supporting purgatory fall foul of that.
25:27
OK, let's dig into some of those specific scriptural passages
25:31
that were often brought up as proof for purgatory.
25:34
How do the sources handle the arguments based on, say, Matthew
25:37
12.3? Right, that's the passage about
25:39
the sin against the Holy Spirit, where Christ says it won't be
25:42
forgiven either in this age or in the age to come.
25:45
And the pro purgatory argument was.
25:47
The argument was that if the sin isn't forgiven in the age to
25:50
come, it implies that other sins can be forgiven in the age to
25:54
come, which they interpreted as meaning forgiven in purgatory.
25:57
Makes a certain kind of surface logic.
25:59
How do the sources respond? They argue it's a complete
26:02
misunderstanding of what Christ is doing there.
26:04
They explain that Christ is emphasizing the extreme gravity
26:07
and the permanent consequence, the guilt of that particular
26:11
sin. He's using a common figure of
26:13
speech, dividing time into this age, present life and the age to
26:17
come after the final judgement, simply to stress the absolute
26:21
total, never ending unforgivability, A blasphemy
26:24
against the Holy Spirit. So it's about stressing the
26:26
never, not implying, sometimes later.
26:30
Exactly. It's a way of saying that
26:31
specific sin will absolutely never be forgiven, period.
26:35
It's not meant to open a door suggesting other sins will be
26:38
forgiven in some intermediate state like purgatory.
26:40
OK, how about Matthew 5.2526, that parable about settling with
26:45
your accuser quickly before you end up in prison until you pay
26:48
the last penny? Yeah, that was another one.
26:50
Sometimes used proponents would allegorize it.
26:53
The judge is God, the adversary is the law or maybe conscience.
26:57
The officer is an Angel, the prison is purgatory, and paying
27:01
the last penny is finishing your satisfaction there.
27:03
Sees a bit of a stretch maybe? What's the critiques take?
27:07
The sources pretty much dismiss it as miss applying the text
27:09
entirely. They argue Christ's obvious
27:12
point in that context is practical wisdom urging people
27:15
towards equity and conquered in their everyday earthly disputes
27:19
to avoid very real legal trouble and financial penalties in this
27:22
life. Keep it out of court.
27:23
Basically, yeah. They argue that you can only use
27:26
an allegorical interpretation if the text itself clearly signals
27:30
that's the intended meeting, which they say isn't the case
27:32
here at all. So you can't legitimately build
27:36
a doctrine like purgatory on this parable about settling
27:39
lawsuits. What about Philippians 2.10, the
27:42
part that says at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in
27:46
heaven and on earth and under the earth?
27:49
The argument they're focused on under the earth or sometimes
27:51
translated nether regions. The claim was well, who is under
27:54
the earth? It can't be the Saints in heaven
27:56
or the damned in hell, so it must be souls in purgatory.
27:59
And the rebuttal? The sources argue Paul is making
28:02
a much grander point there about Christ's universal lordship over
28:06
all creation. They interpret under the Earth
28:08
as referring primarily to the devils and other hostile
28:11
spiritual powers. The demonic realm.
28:13
Yes, who will ultimately be forced, perhaps unwillingly and
28:17
in fear, to acknowledge Christ's authority and bow before him at
28:20
the final judgement. They point to Romans 14, which
28:23
also speaks of everyone standing before God's judgment seat,
28:26
suggesting a universal submission that includes even
28:29
fallen angels. Then there's Revelation 5.33,
28:32
where every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth
28:36
and in the sea praises God and the Lamb.
28:39
Right again, the mention of creatures under the earth was
28:42
seized upon as including souls in purgatory.
28:45
Have the counter argument. The sources concede the
28:47
categories mentioned, but argue that under the Earth here is
28:50
used extremely broadly. It likely includes even
28:53
creatures lacking in reason and inanimate ones.
28:56
The point being, the entirety of creation, every single part of
28:59
it joining in a universal chorus declaring the Creator's glory.
29:03
It's not meant as a specific designation of souls undergoing
29:06
purgation. Now, the sources also tackle
29:09
arguments from texts outside the standard Protestant Canon,
29:12
specifically 2 Maccabees 12, which describes Judas Maccabees
29:16
making an offering for soldiers found to have died with idols.
29:19
Yes, and this is a really crucial point for the sources
29:22
argument against the scriptural basis for purgatory and prayers
29:25
for the dead. They essentially deem this
29:27
passage unworthy of reply as doctrinal proof precisely
29:31
because in their theological framework, it's not in the Canon
29:34
of the sacred Books. OK, so their primary objection
29:37
is its canonical status. Do they elaborate on why they
29:41
don't see it as authoritative for doctrine?
29:43
They do. They bring in historical
29:45
witnesses. They mention Augustine observing
29:48
that the Jewish people didn't regard Maccabees with the same
29:50
authority as the Law, prophets and Psalms.
29:53
Although Augustine himself thought it could be read.
29:56
Not unprofitably if it be soberly read.
29:59
So useful history maybe, but not foundational doctrine.
30:03
That seems to be Augustine's view as cited, but they lean
30:06
more heavily on Jerome, who they say teaches without hesitation
30:11
that its authority is of no value for the proving of
30:13
doctrine. Jerome was pretty key in
30:15
compiling the Latin Vulgate, wasn't he?
30:17
Exactly so his opinion on Canon carried weight, and the source
30:20
is at another point. The author of Two Maccabees
30:23
himself ends his book by asking the reader's pardon if he's made
30:26
mistakes in his writing. Kind of unusual for inspired
30:28
scripture. Highly unusual.
30:30
The sources argue this shows he wasn't claiming divine
30:33
inspiration like an Oracle of the Holy Spirit, lacking that
30:36
mark of canonical scripture. Furthermore, even if you look at
30:40
the action described in Maccabees, the sources argue
30:42
Judas did it based on a hope of resurrection, not explicitly as
30:46
a price of redemption from a place like purgatory, and they
30:49
even suggest the ACT itself showed superstition and wrong
30:53
headed zeal by applying an Old Testament style sacrifice
30:56
inappropriately. OK, that covers several
30:58
passages, but let's turn to what the source is called.
31:01
The real heavyweight, the invincible phalanx for the
31:04
Romanist arguments, First Corinthians 3, verses 12 to 15.
31:08
The passage about building on the foundation with gold,
31:10
silver, precious stones versus wood, hay, stubble, and the work
31:14
being tested by fire, with the builder being saved as through
31:17
fire. Right.
31:17
This passage was absolutely central to the case for
31:20
turgatory. The fire mentioned there was
31:22
interpreted quite literally as the cleansing fire of purgatory,
31:25
burning away the filth of sins or leftover temporal punishment.
31:29
How do the sources approach this key text?
31:31
Well, first, they acknowledge that very many of the ancient
31:33
writers actually interpreted this fire differently, seeing it
31:37
as the tribulations, the trials, the cross that believers face in
31:41
this life. And the sources say that
31:43
interpretation is actually more probable than the Purgatory 1.
31:47
But they don't stop there. They offer another reading.
31:49
They do. They propose what they consider
31:51
an even surer and clearer understanding, but before laying
31:56
it out, they pose a kind of logical challenge to the
31:59
purgatory view. Which is.
32:01
If this fire is meant to purge the filth of sins, would
32:05
everyone need it? Would all the apostles and the
32:07
Saints have to pass through this fire?
32:10
According to Romanist theology itself, many Saints had that
32:13
supposed surplus of merits and wouldn't eat purgatory.
32:16
Yet Paul says the fire will test the work of all builders.
32:20
They mentioned Augustine raised the same difficulty too.
32:22
OK, interesting point. So how do the sources interpret
32:25
this passage metaphorically then?
32:26
They breakdown the metaphors. The different building
32:29
materials, wood, hay, and stubble represent flawed human
32:33
additions to faith. Things like doctrines devised by
32:36
men's own brains, human traditions, philosophical
32:40
speculations, things mixed into the building of the church or a
32:43
person's Christian life that aren't solidly grounded in God's
32:46
Word. And the gold, silver, precious
32:48
stones. Those represent sound, solid,
32:52
God-given doctrine and practice built faithfully on the
32:55
foundation. And the fire, what does that
32:56
represent? The fire and this interpretation
32:59
is the testing by the Holy Spirit.
33:01
Testing by the Spirit, how does that?
33:04
Work. Think of how fire refines
33:06
metals, burning away impurities to reveal the true substance.
33:10
In the same way, the Holy Spirit, through the clear light
33:12
of God's Word and spiritual discernment, tests the truth and
33:16
endurance of the doctrines and practices that people build into
33:19
the church or their lives. So human inventions.
33:22
Human inventions, the wood, hay, stubble.
33:24
They cannot bear testing by the spirits fire.
33:26
They fall and perish because they lack divine truth and
33:29
substance. They get exposed as worthless
33:31
when the truth shines. What about the day of the Lord
33:34
mentioned in the past? In this interpretation, that
33:36
doesn't necessarily mean only the final judgment day.
33:40
It refers to whenever He, the Lord, reveals His presence,
33:44
especially times when the truth of His word gleams forth,
33:47
exposing error and falsehood. OK, that leaves the final phrase
33:51
the builder being saved, but only as through fire.
33:54
How did the sources explain that if it's not purgatory?
33:57
This is crucial. It refers, they argue, to those
34:01
builders, ministers, teachers, even individual Christians
34:04
building their lives, lives who have genuinely built on the only
34:07
lawful foundation, which is Christ himself.
34:10
They are truly saved. But they have built upon that
34:13
foundation with unsuitable materials.
34:15
They've mixed in some of that wood, hay, stubble, maybe less
34:18
important doctrines taught wrongly, human traditions,
34:21
flawed philosophical ideas mixed with God's Word.
34:24
So what happens to them and their work?
34:26
When their work is tested by the Spirit's fire, the clarifying
34:30
power of truth, they suffer the loss of their work, meaning
34:34
their flawed additions. Their human inventions are shown
34:38
to be worthless. They're annihilated, burned up,
34:41
but the Builder themselves is saved.
34:43
Through the fire. Yes, saved through it, not by
34:46
it. In a purifying, punitive sense,
34:48
it means they are saved because their foundation in Christ holds
34:50
firm, but they pass through the experience of having their
34:53
errors exposed and burned away. They are cleansed from these
34:58
errors by the grace and power of the Holy Spirit.
35:01
It's a purification from error and delusion by God's grace in
35:04
this life or at judgment, not a punishment in purgatory after
35:08
Beth. Wow, that's a detailed
35:10
alternative. Reading this whole refutation of
35:13
this supposed scriptural basis for purgatory, combined with the
35:16
critique of its core theological premise, it leads naturally into
35:20
discussing the doctrine's origins, doesn't it?
35:22
Particularly the ancient practice of praying for the
35:25
dead. Yes, the sources have to address
35:26
that, because proponents of purgatory obviously pointed to
35:29
the long history of praying for the dead as evidence.
35:31
And the sources acknowledge, it's old.
35:33
Oh yes, they readily admit it was a most ancient observance.
35:37
They mentioned it might have been going on for 1300 years by
35:40
their time, but acknowledging its age isn't the same as
35:43
validating its basis. All right.
35:45
So what's their fundamental question about it?
35:47
Their question is blunt. By what word of God?
35:50
By what revelation? By what example is this done?
35:54
Where is the divine mandate? And their answer based on their
35:58
study of Scripture. They conclude quite firmly,
36:01
testimonies of Scripture are lacking on this point.
36:04
They argue that if you look at all the examples of prayer and
36:07
the lives of Saints in the Bible, you just don't find
36:10
instances of people praying for the dead in a way that implies a
36:13
need to relieve suffering in a place like purgatory.
36:16
So if it wasn't based on scripture, how did this ancient
36:19
practice arise according to the sources?
36:21
What's their explanation? They suggest it likely grew out
36:24
of very understandable human factors, things like yielding to
36:28
human nature, the natural desire to seek comfort regarding loved
36:32
ones who have died, a simple expression of love toward the
36:35
dead. Natural feelings, then.
36:36
Natural feelings, yes. They also speculate it might
36:40
have partly stemmed from a kind of perverse emulation of customs
36:44
common among non Christians gentiles at the time, who had
36:48
elaborate rituals and care for their dead.
36:50
Wanting to keep up appearances almost.
36:52
Perhaps they call it ill advised.
36:54
Diligence may be motivated partly by a concern not to
36:57
appear worse than profane men who clearly mourned and
37:01
remembered their departed so human sentiment, cultural
37:04
pressure rather than divine instruction.
37:07
And the sources contrast this human driven practice with what
37:10
they see is the Bible's own comfort for the bereaved.
37:12
Absolutely. They point to what they call the
37:14
far better and more perfect solace found right in Scripture.
37:18
They highlight Revelation 14.13 specifically.
37:22
Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord.
37:23
From now on, they rest from their laborers.
37:26
Rest not suffering. Exactly.
37:28
They emphasize that concept of immediate rest and blessedness
37:32
for those who die in Christ, which seems to contradict the
37:34
idea of ongoing suffering that requires prayers for relief.
37:38
They even suggest that some well respected figures from the early
37:41
church might have well gotten this wrong.
37:43
Yes, they are quite direct about that.
37:45
They say that even some early church fathers lacked both the
37:49
command of God and lawful example for this practice, and
37:53
that the fathers themselves were also carried off into error on
37:56
this point. They mention Augustine again
37:58
here. Don't.
37:58
They they do. They point out that Augustine
38:00
himself seemed somewhat uncertain, saying he only
38:03
hesitantly commended prayers for the dead.
38:06
They interpret his mother Monica's famous request for
38:09
prayers and his confessions as simply an old woman's request,
38:13
suggesting it stemmed from piety and personal feeling, not solid
38:17
doctrinal ground. And Augusta's own writings on
38:19
the topic. They analyze his book, The Care
38:22
to be Taken for the Dead, and conclude it contains so many
38:25
doubts and is so tentative that rather than fueling zeal for the
38:28
practice, it's. Coldness ought rightly to
38:31
extinguish the heat of foolish zeal.
38:33
So what's the guiding rule the sources lay down for prayer in
38:36
general? They state a clear principle for
38:39
prayer to be legitimate and pleasing to God, it must be
38:42
lawful, which means it must be grounded in and guided by God's
38:46
revealed word. And prayers for the dead.
38:48
Since, according to their analysis, the entire Law and
38:51
gospel do not furnish so much as a single syllable of leave to
38:55
pray for the dead in the way it was being done, attempting to do
38:59
so is seen as going beyond God's revealed will.
39:02
It's an unauthorized edition and therefore to profane the
39:06
invocation of God. Now they also make a
39:09
distinction, don't they, between how this was practiced in
39:12
ancient times versus the modern Romanist practice they were
39:15
directly critiquing. Yes, that distinction is
39:18
important to them. While they find even the ancient
39:20
practice biblically unsupported, they see the contemporary
39:23
practice as significantly different and worse.
39:26
How so? They suggest that in ancient
39:28
times prayers might have been offered more generally in memory
39:31
of the departed. They argue ancient writers were
39:34
often non committal or even doubtful about the specific
39:37
nature of purgatory, and these prayers were offered relatively
39:40
rarely. Where is the practice in their
39:42
day? In contrast, they claim the
39:44
modern Romanist view of their time demanded belief in
39:47
purgatory as a necessary article of faith.
39:50
It zealously pressed the care of the dead, making it a major
39:54
focus of piety. And quite shockingly, they are
39:57
knew it was often preferred, even above all works of love,
40:01
towards the living. Wow, that shows a real shift in
40:05
emphasis in their view. A huge shift, not just
40:08
continuing an unsupported practice, but elevating it to a
40:10
central dogma with massive practical implication.
40:13
And just to reiterate, what was Augustine's teaching, as cited
40:17
by the sources, about the immediate state of believers
40:20
after death? The sources cite Augustina's
40:22
teaching, based on his reading of Scripture, that all godly men
40:25
immediately after death enjoy blessed repose.
40:28
Blessed repose. And if that's true, the sources
40:30
conclude, then prayers for them intended to alleviate suffering
40:33
or hasten release are fundamentally unnecessary.
40:36
They're already resting in blessedness.
40:38
Such prayers could achieve nothing for them.
40:40
And this critique of purgatory, much like the one on
40:43
indulgences, also points to practical and spiritual
40:46
consequences beyond just the core theological disagreement.
40:50
Absolutely. The sources don't keep it purely
40:52
abstract. They argue that the doctrine of
40:54
purgatory actually incites to many grave offenses.
40:57
It breeds, they say, grocer superstitions among ordinary.
41:01
People. And it ties back to money, too.
41:03
Directly, they connect it to utterly based trafficking,
41:07
linking it straight back to the sale of indulgences, which were,
41:11
of course often marketed precisely as a way to shorten or
41:14
eliminate time in purgatory for oneself or loved ones.
41:17
And that issue of skewed priorities you mentioned?
41:19
Yes, they really hammer that point.
41:21
They describe what they see as a completely perverse reordering
41:26
of Christian duty, where the care of the dead driven by fear
41:29
and the doctrine of purgatory becomes so intense in the system
41:32
they're critiquing that it's actively preferred to all works
41:35
of love towards the poor, the sick, the neighbor right in
41:38
front of you. That scene is a major spiritual
41:41
misdirection of energy, resources and focus.
41:44
Ultimately, though, what do the sources identify as the primary
41:47
spiritual damage caused by the doctrine of purgatory?
41:50
Beyond all the practical issues, the deepest damage, according to
41:53
the sources, is that it fouls the golden purity of God's Word.
41:57
Fouls God's Word. Yes, because it relies on human
42:00
invention, on questionable or even satanic revelations, and on
42:05
twisted interpretations of Scripture instead of resting
42:08
squarely on the clear commands, promises, and examples found in
42:11
the Bible itself. It obscures, they argue, the
42:14
clear biblical teaching about the absolute sufficiency of
42:18
Christ's sacrifice and the immediate state of blessed rest
42:21
for those who died trusting in Him.
42:23
You know, listening to this whole discussion, going through
42:25
both indulgences and purgatory using these sources, it really
42:29
does throw different views on death, the afterlife, and
42:33
especially spiritual authority into sharp contrast.
42:36
As you think about this critique, does it clarify things
42:38
for you? How does it highlight that
42:40
difference between relying solely on scripture versus maybe
42:43
incorporating perdition or other revelations?
42:45
It really does crystallize it, doesn't it?
42:47
It shows so clearly how your foundational assumptions, your
42:50
starting points, inevitably shape the entire structure of
42:53
your beliefs. Well, if you start with the
42:55
conviction drawn from the sources reading of Scripture
42:58
that the Bible is the sole ultimate authority and that
43:01
Christ's work is absolutely perfectly sufficient, then your
43:05
understanding of salvation assurance and what happens after
43:08
death looks one way very different from a system that
43:11
incorporates tradition, papal authority, or supposed extra
43:15
biblical revelations as being on par with scripture and sees
43:19
Christ's work as needing some kind of human or ecclesiastical
43:23
supplementation, whether through penance, merits or post death
43:26
suffering. So it forces you to examine your
43:28
own foundation. Exactly.
43:30
It really pushes you to consider what is the ultimate source of
43:34
authority for your faith, and do you truly believe Christ's work
43:37
was complete? Or is there some part of you
43:39
that feels something more is needed, either from you or from
43:41
the church? It highlights the profound
43:43
implications of answering those questions differently.
43:46
OK, so let's try to bring this all together then.
43:48
Looking back at the sources critique of both indulgences and
43:52
purgatory, the powerful argument that keeps coming up again and
43:56
again circles back to that one central theme, what the sources
44:00
present as the absolute sufficiency of Christ's
44:04
sacrifice. That really is the bedrock of
44:06
the entire critique presented here.
44:08
Both doctrines, indulgences and purgatory, are seen by these
44:12
sources as fundamentally resting on the premise that Christ's
44:15
work on the cross wasn't entirely sufficient, that it
44:18
didn't fully secure complete forgiveness, reconciliation, and
44:21
acceptance with God for believers all by itself.
44:24
Indulgences implied you needed. You needed the supplementary
44:28
merits of martyrs and apostles drawn from that treasury
44:31
dispensed by the Pope to cover the lack.
44:33
And purgatory implied. It implied a need for further
44:36
suffering after death to pay off remaining satisfaction or to
44:40
cleanse away residual filth that Christ's blood hadn't supposedly
44:44
fully purified. And this stands a direct, stark
44:47
opposition to the source core assertion which they ground in
44:50
their reading of the Gospel. Absolutely.
44:52
Their core assertion is that salvation is solely entirely by
44:56
God's mercy, received through faith alone in Christ, and is
45:00
utterly finished. Totally complete work, full
45:03
stop. So the critique is essentially
45:05
that systems like the Treasury of Merits or the Doctor of
45:09
Purgatory inevitably replace that simple reliance on Christ's
45:13
grace alone. That's the argument.
45:15
They replace it with reliance on human accumulation and
45:18
distribution of merit, or on a process of post death
45:21
purification through suffering. It shifts the focus and the
45:25
ground of assurance away from Christ alone.
45:28
Why is understanding this historical critique useful,
45:31
maybe even important for you, the listener, thinking about
45:34
this today? Well, it's not just history for
45:36
history's sake. This critique gets right to the
45:38
heart of a major foundational divergent in Christian thinking
45:41
about salvation, about the authority of Scripture, about
45:44
the very nature of Christ's work, the kind of divergent that
45:47
fueled the Reformation itself. So understanding these arguments
45:50
gives you vital context for why those historical events happen.
45:54
These weren't minor disagreements over secondary
45:56
issues. They were debates striking at
45:59
the absolute core of how a person is saved and where
46:02
believers find lasting peace and assurance before God.
46:06
O It kind of forces you to examine your own beliefs on
46:09
these core issues. It really does.
46:11
It challenges you to consider the basis for your own
46:14
understanding of salvation. Do you truly rest everything on
46:17
the sufficiency of Christ's work?
46:19
Or are there ways, maybe subtle ways, you haven't even noticed,
46:22
that you might be relying on your own efforts or religious
46:24
observances or institutional structures as somehow adding to
46:28
or completing what Christ has already done?
46:30
It also shows how doctrines can change over time, doesn't it?
46:33
Yeah, it illustrates how theological ideas can drift or
46:36
evolve, and it underscores the value stressed by these sources
46:39
of constantly testing doctrines against the primary source
46:42
material, the Word of God itself.
46:44
And as those vivid descriptions of abuses reminded us, it's a
46:48
powerful reminder that what we believe theologically isn't just
46:52
abstract. It can have very real, tangible,
46:55
practical consequences. For sure, the sources,
46:58
descriptions of financial exploitation, the fostering of
47:01
what they called gross superstitions, the misdirection
47:05
of people's piety and resources away from loving their neighbor
47:08
towards dealing with a speculative state for the dead,
47:11
all that underscores that spiritual error can have
47:13
genuinely harmful effects in people's lives and in society.
47:17
So yeah, as we wrap up this deep dive into these particular
47:20
sources, the really striking point, the one that echoes
47:23
through the critique of both indulgences and purgatory, is
47:26
that relentless focus back on the sufficiency of Christ's
47:29
sacrifice. Right.
47:30
And it kind of leaves you, the listener, with a fundamental
47:33
question to ponder, doesn't it? What does it truly mean,
47:35
practically, personally, in every area of your faith in
47:38
life, to affirm that Christ's work for your salvation is
47:41
absolutely finished, totally complete, and fully sufficient?
47:44
What rests entirely on is grace alone, and where might the
47:47
temptation lie for you or for the Church to try and add
47:51
something, whether through human effort or tradition or
47:54
institutional claims? Definitely something worth
47:56
thinking more about as you continue to reflect on these
48:00
these significant historical and theological ideas.
48:03
Indeed. Well, thanks for joining us for
48:05
this deep dive into what is definitely a complex but also
48:08
historically crucial topic. We really hope these insights,
48:11
drawn directly from the source material we looked at today,
48:14
prove valuable for you.