Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / What Every Girl Needs to Know About Porn [with Kristen Jenson]

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What Every Girl Needs to Know About Porn [with Kristen Jenson] · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:05
Speaker 1: Hello, Welcome to the Happy Families podcast. Here's a question
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Speaker 1: for parents of daughters, and it's one that parents of
0:11
Speaker 1: daughters don't usually ask themselves. Have you talked to your
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Speaker 1: daughter about pornography? We want our boys, or at least
0:18
Speaker 1: I hope we do, but many parents assume that the
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Speaker 1: girls don't need the talk, and that assumption is leaving
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Speaker 1: them exposed. Before we move on, today's podcast contains content
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Speaker 1: that will be sensitive for some listeners. We do encourage you,
0:30
Speaker 1: as a parent to be mindful of who's listening and why.
0:35
Speaker 1: My guest today is Kristen Jensen, the founder of Defend
0:37
Speaker 1: Young Minds and the author of the best selling Good Pictures,
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Speaker 1: Bad Pictures book series. They're Read Aloud books that have
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Speaker 1: sold hundreds of thousands of copies worldwide in ten languages.
0:48
Speaker 1: I'm a little bit jealous of those stats. I my
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Speaker 1: dad helping families to have the hard conversation before the
0:52
Speaker 1: Internet has it for them. Kristin Jensen is the executive
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Speaker 1: producer of the Brain Defense Digital Safety Curriculum, the five
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Speaker 1: before the Washington State sent it on the public health
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Speaker 1: crisis of pornography, and she's even raised a voice at
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Speaker 1: international forums including the United Nations Civil Society's Conference. Kristin
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Speaker 1: has a brand new book. It's called Good Pictures, Bad
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Speaker 1: Pictures Guide for Girls. Took two years to write and
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Speaker 1: test with families and get it published. It's built specifically
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Speaker 1: for girls aged seven to twelve, and it exists because
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Speaker 1: for decades we've been treating pornography as a boy's only problem,
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Speaker 1: and the research says quite plainly that it isn't. Kristen's
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Speaker 1: a mum of three, she's a grandmother as well, and
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Speaker 1: one of the most practical, hope filled voices in a
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Speaker 1: conversation that can all too often turn turgid and scary
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Speaker 1: way too fast. So no scare tactics today, No shame,
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Speaker 1: just a plan. Kristin Jensen next to talk about girls
1:49
Speaker 1: and pornography on the Happy Families podcast Stay with Us.
1:55
Speaker 2: I think we are more shame based when it comes
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Speaker 2: to girls. We think their goodness and they're like angels,
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Speaker 2: and I feel like we need to be able to
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Speaker 2: have this conversation so that girls have a fighting chance.
2:09
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to have your family podcasts where you
2:11
Speaker 1: get real parenting solutions every single day. This is Australia's
2:14
Speaker 1: most downloaded Parenting podcast. My name is doctor Justin Couson,
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Speaker 1: and today a conversation that I feel is urgent. I've
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Speaker 1: just written a book about boys called Boys, Building Strong
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Speaker 1: Young Men from the inside Out, and talked a lot
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Speaker 1: about pornography and the scourge that it is in our
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Speaker 1: young boys' lives. But it's affecting girls as well, not
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Speaker 1: just because boys are using it, and it's affecting their
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Speaker 1: beliefs and therefore their behaviors In there. I was going
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Speaker 1: to say intimate experiences with girls, but intimate might not
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Speaker 1: be the right word there, but you know what I mean.
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Speaker 1: Girls though, are also accessing pornography at levels that we
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Speaker 1: perhaps haven't known about as clearly as we do now.
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Speaker 1: And Christen joins me today to talk about that issue
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Speaker 1: and also her brand new book on the topic. Christ
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Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me.
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Speaker 2: Thank you Justin. It's great to be here with you.
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Speaker 1: Let's kick straight into it. You've said that you used
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Speaker 1: to treat this or people generally have usually treated pornography
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Speaker 1: as a boy's only problem, but women have been telling
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Speaker 1: their stories now for some time. Did your mind change
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Speaker 1: on this, and if so, why do you think that
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Speaker 1: the girls aren't interested. Myth has survived so long when
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Speaker 1: the data says that such a high percentage of girls
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Speaker 1: have seen pornography.
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Speaker 2: Well, I think there's just this cultural myth that women
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Speaker 2: aren't interested in sex. I mean, or at least they
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Speaker 2: shouldn't be until they get to a certain age, And
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Speaker 2: that's just a myth. Both boys and girls are interested.
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Speaker 2: And when we ignore girls, when we leave them out
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Speaker 2: of the conversation, then their curiosity almost feels like they're
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Speaker 2: ashamed of it, Like I shouldn't be curious about this, right,
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Speaker 2: There shouldn't be something I'm interested in, But they are.
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Speaker 2: And if we just acknowledge the truth of that, because
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Speaker 2: they're normal, bile, logical human beings, then we can help
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Speaker 2: them and they will not be as vulnerable when we
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Speaker 2: just completely, like I said, leave them out of the conversation,
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Speaker 2: assuming that they're born with some kind of immunity to
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Speaker 2: being intrigued, being vulnerable to this kind of material.
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Speaker 1: It's one of those things, isn't it. I've always encouraged
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Speaker 1: parents to get curious, not furious, to lean in with
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Speaker 1: curiosity and understanding rather than furiosity and reprimanding. I don't
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Speaker 1: know if furiosity is a word, but I like the
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Speaker 1: sound of it. I was doing a little bit of
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Speaker 1: research ahead of our conversation today, and the Common Sense
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Speaker 1: Media Organization did a report a little while ago called
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Speaker 1: Teens and Pornography. They found that more than a third,
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Speaker 1: about thirty six percent of girls reported intentionally consuming pornography,
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Speaker 1: compared with fifty two percent of boys. It's not a
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Speaker 1: massive discrepancy there seventy percent of girls and seventy five
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Speaker 1: percent of boys said that they'd watched online pornography with
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Speaker 1: an average starting age of twelve. What that's do you
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Speaker 1: have around this? How would you tweak what they've found
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Speaker 1: in their report? And can we talk specifically about girls?
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Speaker 1: I mean, you've written this book for girls for a reason.
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Speaker 1: I want to talk more about that in just to say,
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Speaker 1: but that's do you think should be keeping parents away here?
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Speaker 2: Well, those stats are very troubling. And thirty six percent
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Speaker 2: intentionally going to porn how many other girls are seeing
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Speaker 2: it unintentionally? I think that's quite a lot. There was
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Speaker 2: a study by Barna here in the United States. It
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Speaker 2: showed that forty four percent of women seek out pornography
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Speaker 2: on a regular basis. So the gap between men and
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Speaker 2: women and their use of pornography is really shortening and closing.
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Speaker 2: So we do need to take it seriously and we can.
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Speaker 2: We can help our girls just like we help our boys.
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Speaker 1: I want to ask about girls specifically, why do girls
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Speaker 1: need their own book? What's different about how pornography lands
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Speaker 1: for a girl in terms of I don't know, body image,
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Speaker 1: sexual experience, identity, self objectification. I'm sort of grasping here,
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Speaker 1: but why is it different for a girl than it
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Speaker 1: is for a boy.
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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I was asked for this book.
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Speaker 2: I had many especially mothers, come to me and say,
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Speaker 2: I need a book for my daughter, and I just
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Speaker 2: need to have like pictures of girls in it. And
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Speaker 2: it needs to be so that it feels like it's
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Speaker 2: okay for girls to talk about this with girls. And
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Speaker 2: we have a whole chapter on objectification, and we are
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Speaker 2: teaching girls what it means to not only objectify others,
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Speaker 2: but to be objectified and to objectify yourself. And we
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Speaker 2: teach them that that is what these bad pictures, that's
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Speaker 2: what pornography does to girls. It creates. It teaches them
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Speaker 2: that they're objects to be used and commodified, which is
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Speaker 2: an extension of what we see out in social media
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Speaker 2: as well. So girls need to be able to recognize
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Speaker 2: that so they can reject it because it's very harmful
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Speaker 2: to their self esteem. And when you think of the
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Speaker 2: things that are portrayed in pornography, it's very harmful to
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Speaker 2: girls because there are studies that show that girls who
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Speaker 2: look at pornography, you know, they're just primed to accept
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Speaker 2: sexual violence.
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Speaker 1: My youngest daughter is twelve. The average age of first
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Speaker 1: exposure is twelve. And I think about this kid, and
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Speaker 1: I just think, no, just no. I think most parents,
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Speaker 1: especially if girls, would think, yeah, not my kid. What
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Speaker 1: would you say to the parent who's convinced that their
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Speaker 1: daughter is the exception? And I would consider myself one
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Speaker 1: of those parents.
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Speaker 2: I think that's a dangerous way to think, sure, because
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Speaker 2: not preparing your child. So, for example, there's eleven year
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Speaker 2: old girl. She was riding on a bus school bus.
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Speaker 2: Her friend was sitting next to her, and this little girl,
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Speaker 2: her mother had read her good pictures, bad pictures, so
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Speaker 2: she was prepared. She had been given a simple, age
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Speaker 2: appropriate definition so she could recognize it. She had been
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Speaker 2: warned that it's harmful for her brain and for her
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Speaker 2: just her mind, and she had been given a plan
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Speaker 2: of what to do when she sees it, so she
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Speaker 2: was prepared. And so up comes this sub boy with
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Speaker 2: a phone and starts showing them pornography on a school bus.
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Speaker 2: In any case, she's sitting there with her friend and
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Speaker 2: she turns away and she's like, nah, I'm not going
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Speaker 2: to look at it. But guess what, her friend continues
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Speaker 2: to look at it because she hadn't been warned. She's curious.
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Speaker 2: So in the end, who's more protected, right, It's the
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Speaker 2: children that are not cut off guard, it said, children
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Speaker 2: that have been warned and given a plan and really
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Speaker 2: prepared with a disposition or an internal filter so that
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Speaker 2: when they see it they want to reject it. They're like, yeah,
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Speaker 2: I've been told about this. I've been warned about this,
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Speaker 2: and I know I can list five different reasons why
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Speaker 2: I shouldn't be looking at it, why it will be
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Speaker 2: harmful to me.
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Speaker 1: Kristin, after the break, I want to talk to you
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Speaker 1: about what we need to do, how we can help
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Speaker 1: kids develop that internal filter that you talk about and
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Speaker 1: do it in a way that doesn't promote shame and fear,
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Speaker 1: and how to have that conversation. I've also got a
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Speaker 1: quick lightning round, a couple of questions for a little
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Speaker 1: bit of lightning of the conversation because it's pretty heavy topic.
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Speaker 1: That's all coming up next day with us. We're back.
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Speaker 1: This is the Happy Family's podcast. Kristin, I want to
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Speaker 1: talk to you now about the internal filter that we
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Speaker 1: want to help out children to develop. Your whole framework
10:02
Speaker 1: rests on the idea that there is not an external
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Speaker 1: filter that catches everything, so kids need one installed on
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Speaker 1: the inside. This is something that I talk about all
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Speaker 1: the time, like you can fence your swimming pool, but
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Speaker 1: you cannot fence the ocean. Once the kids have left
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Speaker 1: the confines of your yard where the pool is fenced,
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Speaker 1: and they go to the beach, or they go to
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Speaker 1: a friend's house where maybe the fence is left open,
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Speaker 1: the gate is left open, that kind of thing, they've
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Speaker 1: got full access to everything. So walk us through what
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Speaker 1: building an internal filter looks like. What does a nine
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Speaker 1: year old with an internal filter do or an eleven
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Speaker 1: year old, as you were sharing before on the school bus,
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Speaker 1: when those bad pictures appear.
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Speaker 2: You want to give them a definition, a warning, and
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Speaker 2: a plan. So a definition so they can recognize it,
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Speaker 2: but you don't have to tell them too much, just
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Speaker 2: enough so that they can recognize it right, and then
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Speaker 2: a warning so they understand why it's harmful to them,
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Speaker 2: and a plan. We've got the can do you plan
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Speaker 2: in these the Good Pictures Bad Pictures Guide for Girls
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Speaker 2: as well as the original one, and so they know
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Speaker 2: exactly what to do so when they see it, they
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Speaker 2: know what to do. When that exposure happens, they know
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Speaker 2: they need to turn away, they know they need to
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Speaker 2: kind of identify it, and they need to go and
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Speaker 2: tell a trusted adult. If we don't open that conversation,
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Speaker 2: it's very unlikely that the child is going to come
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Speaker 2: and tell us. They're going to think they're going to
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Speaker 2: get in trouble, or their friend will get in trouble,
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Speaker 2: or you'll take their electronics away or whatever. So we
11:37
Speaker 2: have to open that conversation with our children and begin
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Speaker 2: at a young age before hopefully ideally before they get
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Speaker 2: exposed to pornography. But even if we've waited, it's still
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Speaker 2: better to get these conversations started, because you know, no
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Speaker 2: child deserves to face the porn industry alone.
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Speaker 1: Thin point process. It makes it feel doable, digestible. So
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Speaker 1: many parents, i'm sure, including me, just feel ill at
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Speaker 1: the thought. But having a script, having a process to follow,
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Speaker 1: and also giving the kids a script, I can see
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Speaker 1: why it would work. Our time is up, as you know,
12:16
Speaker 1: this is a podcast for time poor parents who just
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Speaker 1: want answers now, and I'd love to wrap up with
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Speaker 1: a lightning round, very short answers two seconds, five seconds, yes,
12:27
Speaker 1: than those where you can a little bit unfair as always,
12:30
Speaker 1: but that's what makes lightning rounds so much fun, even
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Speaker 1: on a tough topic like this. My first question is this,
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Speaker 1: Should the first conversation happen even before a child gets
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Speaker 1: an Internet connected device?
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Speaker 2: Yes? Absolutely? Absolutely?
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Speaker 1: Is accidental exposure more common than intentional seeking of explicit
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Speaker 1: content for primary age kids?
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Speaker 2: Yes, I believe so.
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Speaker 1: Elementary absolutely so, it's more often going to be accidental.
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Speaker 1: You've already answered this. One kind of filter or parental
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Speaker 1: control app replace the conversation. I think that's an easy no.
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Speaker 1: If your child tells you that they've seen pornography, the
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Speaker 1: first move should be to take the device away true
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Speaker 1: or false?
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Speaker 2: No, I think that's false. I think you have to
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Speaker 2: really think about it. The first move would be to
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Speaker 2: come up with a plan with the other spouse or
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Speaker 2: I mean you're the other parent, and not just yank
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Speaker 2: the device away.
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Speaker 1: Because you want to. But like I said before, get curious,
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Speaker 1: not furious. Okay, is it ever too late to start
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Speaker 1: these conversations. I'm sure that there are some parents who
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Speaker 1: are listening right now who know that they're fifteen year
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Speaker 1: old or the seveneen year old is using pornography regularly.
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Speaker 2: It's never too late to give your kids a defense.
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Speaker 2: It's never too late to educate them and persuade them.
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Speaker 2: It may be too late to get the first impression right,
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Speaker 2: but it's never too late to begin educating them. That's
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Speaker 2: just that's what parents do, and so to give them
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Speaker 2: a defense and a protection. I think those conversations can
14:06
Speaker 2: be really interesting. And listen to your kids, especially if
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Speaker 2: they're older. Listen to them and engage in a conversation,
14:14
Speaker 2: not just a lecture.
14:16
Speaker 1: Okay, my last two questions before I give you the
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Speaker 1: final word. Should schools be teaching this or is it
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Speaker 1: a parent only job?
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Speaker 2: Well? I think parents should be first, for sure, But
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Speaker 2: schools have a duty of care if they have computers
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Speaker 2: and devices and chromebooks and such that they are issuing
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Speaker 2: to kids, but they won't teach the kids about what
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Speaker 2: is pornography? You know, what do you do if you
14:45
Speaker 2: see it? What happens if you know? I believe they
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Speaker 2: have a duty of character.
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Speaker 1: Totally agree about it. Total agree. I think it's astonishing
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Speaker 1: that they say, well, we put the firewalls in place,
14:54
Speaker 1: we put the security measures in place, and the kids
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Speaker 1: can't get access to it, and then it just becomes
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Speaker 1: a parent problem. I completely agree schools are complicit if
15:01
Speaker 1: children are accessing explicit content on screens. I've got a
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Speaker 1: true a false question for you, and it's one that
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Speaker 1: I've been thinking about a lot as I've prepared for
15:13
Speaker 1: our conversation today. True false. We as a society judge
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Speaker 1: a curious girl more harshly than a curious boy.
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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think so, for sure. There's so much more shame.
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Speaker 2: And the girls that you know, look at pornography, they
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Speaker 2: bear often a greater burden of harm from the fallout
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Speaker 2: of pornography, not only with their relationships with boys, but
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Speaker 2: also the damage to their self esteem and their body
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Speaker 2: image and all of these things. So girls, I do
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Speaker 2: believe have get the worst of it, and that's why
15:55
Speaker 2: they need to be warned and have their conversations their
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Speaker 2: own conversations about it.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, more shame and therefore more secretive, is what you're saying. Yes, Yes, Kristin,
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Speaker 1: you're doing incredible work in this area, and I really
16:09
Speaker 1: hope that parents who have listened to this conversation will
16:11
Speaker 1: consider jumping online and grabbing a copy of your book,
16:15
Speaker 1: Good Pictures, Bad Pictures Guide for Girls. I presume it's
16:18
Speaker 1: available anywhere online that people would normally go to get
16:21
Speaker 1: their books.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's there in Australia on Amazon, and you can
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Speaker 2: also get it from Focus on Family Great Stuff.
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Speaker 1: Well, we'll link to it in the show notes so
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Speaker 1: people can find it nice and quick, nice and easy.
16:34
Speaker 1: Grateful for your time. Thank you again for the work
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Speaker 1: that you do and for sharing your expertise with us today.
16:38
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, and I hope your audience will
16:40
Speaker 2: follow us on Instagram and Facebook at deafen Mains.
16:44
Speaker 1: We'll link to that in the show notes as well.
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Speaker 1: Kristen Jensen is the founder of Defend Young Minds and
16:49
Speaker 1: author of the best selling Good Pictures, Bad Pictures series.
16:53
Speaker 1: For more information check the show notes. Also a big
16:56
Speaker 1: thank you to Justin Roland, who produces the podcast, in
16:58
Speaker 1: Mim Hammonds, who provides admin and other support. Details on
17:03
Speaker 1: making your family happier other than the show notes and
17:05
Speaker 1: defend young minds available at happy families dot com dot
17:08
Speaker 1: au