Latest / The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show / Episode 9, Season 1: Settling the Confusion Between the Fearful Avoidant and the Dismissive Avoidant

Transcript

Episode 9, Season 1: Settling the Confusion Between the Fearful Avoidant and the Dismissive Avoidant · The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show

0:08
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Love Dog Podcast. I'm your co host,
0:12
Speaker 1: Rina Butcher here with our lovely host, doctor Sarah Hintsley. Hello,
0:16
Speaker 1: Doctor Hintsley, Hello. Tell the listeners a little bit about yourself.
0:21
Speaker 2: Okay. So I am a specialized social psychologist. I've been
0:24
Speaker 2: studying the science of attachment and attraction inside romantic relationships
0:28
Speaker 2: for over fifteen years. I'm also a subject matter expert
0:33
Speaker 2: on dark and malevolent personalities inside of relationships. Just something
0:37
Speaker 2: I talk about a lot. Yeah, And I have a
0:40
Speaker 2: coaching practice where I help people essentially restore their romantic
0:45
Speaker 2: relationships or if they're single, achieve attachment security. So I
0:50
Speaker 2: work from the lens of attachment theory, which is very
0:54
Speaker 2: solid psychological science.
0:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, which actually brings us to the subject of this episode,
1:00
Speaker 1: episode eight, which is we are once and for all
1:05
Speaker 1: going to settle the debacle or the confusion rather between
1:09
Speaker 1: the FA the fearful avoidant, and the DA the dismissive avoidant,
1:14
Speaker 1: because it is a little tricky. Like I remember, even
1:16
Speaker 1: when you were training me to coach, that was probably
1:19
Speaker 1: those two styles were the two that I was like, huh,
1:22
Speaker 1: like that I really had to like dig deep into
1:25
Speaker 1: to really know what The big differences are mainly because
1:29
Speaker 1: the FA right, the title itself is a little confusing
1:34
Speaker 1: because it says fearful. You know, it's fearful avoidant. But
1:37
Speaker 1: they have an extreme anxious size.
1:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, they can go into anxiety.
1:42
Speaker 1: Yes. So because people love the DA the most and
1:45
Speaker 1: they're so fascinated with the DA, we're actually going to
1:47
Speaker 1: start with the FA and then we'll end with the DA. Okay,
1:50
Speaker 1: so do it. Let's do it. Tell us all about
1:52
Speaker 1: the FA.
1:53
Speaker 2: Okay. So fearful avoidance have the entire attachment spectrums. We
2:00
Speaker 2: have to think about attachment as a spectrum. Some people
2:03
Speaker 2: try to think about it as like these concrete, finite boxes,
2:07
Speaker 2: and they're really not. It's just this spectrum. And on
2:10
Speaker 2: one end of the spectrum you have attachment anxiety, and
2:13
Speaker 2: anxiety makes you want to seek connection, makes you want
2:15
Speaker 2: to activate, get closer to your partner, be with your partner,
2:19
Speaker 2: seek them out. And then we have avoidance. On the
2:22
Speaker 2: other end, it's the polar opposite end is avoidance, and
2:24
Speaker 2: avoidance makes you want to deactivate or pull away from
2:27
Speaker 2: your partner, to be alone, to get away from you
2:31
Speaker 2: your significant other, and so the fearful avoidance has the
2:37
Speaker 2: entire spectrum, which means that they can move into anxiety
2:42
Speaker 2: and really seek out connection and want to be with
2:45
Speaker 2: their partner and want to have intimacy, and then at times,
2:49
Speaker 2: usually for different reasons, that they're triggered, they can shut
2:53
Speaker 2: down and pull away really hard. So fearful avoidance develops
2:58
Speaker 2: when there's childhood trauma and people have this misconception about trauma.
3:03
Speaker 2: They're like, well, I didn't have any trauma. But then
3:05
Speaker 2: when I talked to them, like, I had a client
3:07
Speaker 2: a couple of days ago, and he was like, I
3:08
Speaker 2: didn't have any child or trauma. I had no. And
3:12
Speaker 2: then as it rolled out, it was, well, my parents
3:14
Speaker 2: did fight all the time. They did yell, they did scream,
3:16
Speaker 2: they did cuss, And I'm like, that's trauma. Yeah, you know,
3:19
Speaker 2: if you're a little child and your parents are screaming
3:20
Speaker 2: and cussing at each other, that makes you afraid, right, right,
3:25
Speaker 2: it's not. It may not give you PTSD, you may
3:29
Speaker 2: not have terrible trauma symptoms, but inherently it taught you
3:34
Speaker 2: I can't trust my caregivers, and I can't trust love.
3:37
Speaker 1: And I don't feel safe. I don't feel safe right
3:39
Speaker 1: And as a child. Again, I think that you equate
3:44
Speaker 1: love with safety, like feeling safe, like I feel safe here,
3:47
Speaker 1: I'm loved the yeah, Like that's that's the extent of
3:50
Speaker 1: how a child thinks.
3:52
Speaker 2: So whenever there's childhood trauma, and it doesn't even have
3:55
Speaker 2: to be trauma that the parents committed it. Sometimes I
4:00
Speaker 2: see people who have been said as children and it
4:07
Speaker 2: wasn't even a parent. It was like an.
4:09
Speaker 1: Uncle or a said, what do you mean?
4:11
Speaker 2: Okay, that's the the term that you're supposed to use
4:14
Speaker 2: on social media for a certain kind of abuse. Okay,
4:19
Speaker 2: the intimate kind of abuse. Okay, Yeah, they don't let
4:22
Speaker 2: you say it anymore usually, really, yeah, is it the
4:24
Speaker 2: because it's the word.
4:26
Speaker 1: I think s word.
4:27
Speaker 2: I don't know, but I know, like you can't say
4:29
Speaker 2: it on TikTok.
4:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, they'll ban Yeah. Instagram gets a little yeah said
4:33
Speaker 1: about it too. So so.
4:36
Speaker 2: You know, if you've had you know, rhymes with ricks. Yeah,
4:41
Speaker 2: if you've had that happened to you in childhood, and
4:44
Speaker 2: it happened like saved from a neighbor, it still gets
4:48
Speaker 2: imprinted as I can't trust my parents. Sure, because your
4:50
Speaker 2: parents are suposed to be the people that protect you, right,
4:52
Speaker 2: and even though logically and rationally, you know, it wasn't
4:56
Speaker 2: my parents' fault if they didn't know, they had no
4:58
Speaker 2: evidence or reasonably this was going on, the child still
5:02
Speaker 2: is like, I got put in the situation, and why
5:04
Speaker 2: didn't you protect me? On a subconscious level? So there
5:07
Speaker 2: could be that kind of abuse or could be physical abuse,
5:09
Speaker 2: it could be emotional abuse. It could be a parent
5:11
Speaker 2: that had a substance abuse problem, a parent that had
5:13
Speaker 2: a mental illness. In my case, my dad had pipolar
5:16
Speaker 2: disorder and he had some significant attachment problems. And I
5:22
Speaker 2: didn't trust my dad.
5:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, not that you.
5:25
Speaker 2: Know, it's just I didn't trust that he was an
5:28
Speaker 2: emotionally stable person. I didn't trust that he could show
5:32
Speaker 2: up for me in the way that I really needed
5:34
Speaker 2: him to show up for me, because he was too
5:36
Speaker 2: consumed with his own problems and pathologies. And you know,
5:41
Speaker 2: fearful of avoids oftentimes have these moments in childhood, but
5:44
Speaker 2: they look at their parent and they're like, you can't
5:47
Speaker 2: show up for me. You've got too many issues of
5:49
Speaker 2: your own. And that leaves me essentially without the type
5:53
Speaker 2: of parent that I'm supposed to have, which is a
5:55
Speaker 2: parent that loves me correctly and safely and consistently.
5:59
Speaker 1: Well, and I know too. For me, it was I
6:03
Speaker 1: felt extremely emotionally responsible.
6:06
Speaker 2: For your parentified.
6:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, for my emotionally unstable parent. I don't want to
6:13
Speaker 1: throw my mother under the bus. I want to be
6:15
Speaker 1: careful what I say about her, you know, because like
6:18
Speaker 1: you said, you know, she's not here to defend herself. Sure,
6:20
Speaker 1: she's you know, I lost her six years ago, but
6:24
Speaker 1: there was a lot of emotional instability there, and so
6:27
Speaker 1: I felt very emotionally responsible for her from a very
6:31
Speaker 1: young age, as in because she was extremely reactive.
6:36
Speaker 2: So why you're a people pleaser exactly?
6:41
Speaker 1: Yes, because I'm like, how can I make everyone okay?
6:44
Speaker 1: And then I wonder like, why is my son like that? Oh? Yes,
6:47
Speaker 1: because I you know, I objectify that onto him. But
6:51
Speaker 1: you know, I felt extremely emotionally responsible for her, which
6:55
Speaker 1: make made me which is a trait of the the
6:58
Speaker 1: f A. It make it made me very hyper vigilant. Yeah,
7:01
Speaker 1: like any expression that somebody makes, you know, even if
7:05
Speaker 1: I mean, this happens a lot within my marriage with Josh,
7:08
Speaker 1: Like Josh can just be a little off, just a
7:11
Speaker 1: tiny bit off, and I'm like, what's wrong? What's you know?
7:15
Speaker 1: You know, you know, I got to fix this.
7:17
Speaker 2: Yeah. And so my husband, Yeah, my husband, he's like,
7:21
Speaker 2: you have a funny look on your face for you, Okay,
7:23
Speaker 2: something wrong? Are you all right?
7:25
Speaker 1: Yeah?
7:25
Speaker 2: I love you? What can I do for you?
7:27
Speaker 1: You know? And same, I'm the same way. Yeah, And
7:30
Speaker 1: Josh is like, I mean the male version of you, Yes,
7:32
Speaker 1: you did. And Josh gets a little and it's funny
7:34
Speaker 1: because I feel like you and Josh are more alike. Yeah,
7:38
Speaker 1: I mean sometimes it gets so bad that Josh is like,
7:40
Speaker 1: if you ask me one more time, what is wrong
7:43
Speaker 1: with me? Like something actually is going to be wrong? Like,
7:46
Speaker 1: nothing's wrong, Just take my word for it. Nothing is wrong.
7:49
Speaker 2: But when you have childhood trauma and you have an
7:52
Speaker 2: emotionally unstable parent, your brain, your brain's attention system develops
7:58
Speaker 2: toward hypervigilance and like really checking out, like is Mom
8:02
Speaker 2: okay right now? Can I approach mom right now? Or
8:04
Speaker 2: I need to go to my room right now? Like
8:05
Speaker 2: is mom mad about something? What happened? And so you
8:08
Speaker 2: become somebody who's deeply without even knowing, on a subconscious level,
8:14
Speaker 2: studies people. And that's what fearful avoidance too. You're a
8:17
Speaker 2: former fearful avoidant. I'm a former fearful avoidant. My husband's
8:20
Speaker 2: a former fearful avoidant. Like, I'm surrounded by f I
8:22
Speaker 2: live in the FA space, okay, because we're of.
8:25
Speaker 1: The most awesome Yeah trauma, this is awesome trauma.
8:31
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the fearful avoidance, they're hyper vigilant, so they
8:35
Speaker 2: put their partners under a microscope, so they are constantly like,
8:38
Speaker 2: this is everything my partner's doing this, this, this, this,
8:41
Speaker 2: and this is all the stuff I don't like. And
8:43
Speaker 2: fearful avoidance have a negative bias towards their partner, which
8:46
Speaker 2: they don't like to hear that. But I'm like, you
8:48
Speaker 2: focus a lot on what they do wrong and not
8:51
Speaker 2: at all on what they do right, because from a
8:53
Speaker 2: survival standpoint, focusing on threats helps keep you alive, right,
8:57
Speaker 2: And that's kind of what happens with that traumat, that
9:00
Speaker 2: childhood trauma, right, you launch into a sort of survival mode.
9:05
Speaker 2: So fearful avoidance, because they had they couldn't trust their caregivers,
9:09
Speaker 2: they struggle with a real bad betrayal wound, which is
9:13
Speaker 2: like if I can't even trust my own parents to
9:15
Speaker 2: show up for me, who could I possibly ever trust?
9:17
Speaker 2: And again that is subconscious, that is not going on
9:19
Speaker 2: in the conscious mind. Right. So then when you get
9:21
Speaker 2: inside relationships, they're really really focused on avoiding pain and
9:26
Speaker 2: avoiding betrayal inside of their relationships. So they really again,
9:30
Speaker 2: let me put my partner partner under a microscope, let
9:34
Speaker 2: me figure out all the ways they're hurting me, and
9:36
Speaker 2: then let me let them know, yeah, really strongly, that
9:39
Speaker 2: they're hurting.
9:40
Speaker 1: Me and hopes that they don't.
9:41
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, in even ways that I mean, and oversensitive
9:45
Speaker 2: is a good term. But social wards are very oversensitive
9:48
Speaker 2: people again because they had trauma yep, right, so they're
9:52
Speaker 2: very like they have the most wounds, so it's not
9:55
Speaker 2: hard to find one to step.
9:56
Speaker 1: On, right, right, makes them extremely complex to.
10:00
Speaker 2: Very calm Oh gosh, fearfulvoids are the most complex people,
10:03
Speaker 2: just like I love my husband so much because he's
10:05
Speaker 2: so beautifully complex and so am I. But we're the
10:08
Speaker 2: exact same person. And I don't remember who I heard
10:12
Speaker 2: this from something on TikTok, but it was somebody saying
10:16
Speaker 2: that when you achieve attachment security, and I don't have
10:19
Speaker 2: a lot of science on this, so I'm saying this
10:21
Speaker 2: with a grain of salt. Achieve attachment security, you seek
10:24
Speaker 2: out someone who is more like you than unlike you.
10:27
Speaker 2: Instead of seeking out somebody with the opposite types of
10:30
Speaker 2: insecurities as you, you seek out someone who has the
10:34
Speaker 2: same insecurities as you that you guys have both worked
10:37
Speaker 2: on to try to heal, so that you can see
10:39
Speaker 2: it when it's coming up and you can stop it.
10:41
Speaker 2: But then it gives you this ability to have tons
10:42
Speaker 2: of empathy and grace and understanding for the other person
10:44
Speaker 2: because you're like, well, I've been there.
10:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I was reading something like that, I think
10:48
Speaker 1: on Instagram yesterday the same thing. Quentin somebody he's an
10:53
Speaker 1: attachment expert. Well, I mean I can't. His was a
10:58
Speaker 1: dialogue and it was atentially saying the same thing, like,
11:01
Speaker 1: you reach attachment security, you attract that person that is
11:04
Speaker 1: more like you for those same reasons so that you
11:07
Speaker 1: can exhibit more empathy and understanding towards them when in
11:10
Speaker 1: conflict or or something does happen.
11:13
Speaker 2: Yes, and my husband and I say all the time,
11:15
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, we're the same person, you know, Oh gosh,
11:18
Speaker 2: we're the exact same people.
11:20
Speaker 1: Josh is very different than me.
11:23
Speaker 2: I think you guys have a lot of.
11:25
Speaker 1: We are very similar in a lot of ways. But
11:28
Speaker 1: and it's not just we're not different just because I
11:30
Speaker 1: feel like, you know, he was a born secure and
11:33
Speaker 1: I wasn't. But we're different in the aspect of Josh
11:38
Speaker 1: tends to be a little bit more of an introvert
11:41
Speaker 1: and I can be I'm pretty extroverted. He's which, No,
11:47
Speaker 1: we're similar in this case because he's like super artsy.
11:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, creative, both artsy. You both enjoy a lot
11:57
Speaker 2: of the same things. You love the outdoors, music values.
12:00
Speaker 2: Are you guys are.
12:02
Speaker 1: Similar for each other. Yeah.
12:06
Speaker 2: So the fearful avoidant though, just to kind of swing back,
12:09
Speaker 2: is they really want love, but they are terrified of betrayal, terrified.
12:18
Speaker 2: They're hyper vigilant that it's going to happen. They're oversensitive
12:21
Speaker 2: to it happening. And then when it does happen, they
12:25
Speaker 2: they get very reactive and they either swing very anxious
12:28
Speaker 2: and they can do like a they can go into
12:30
Speaker 2: a fight response, which is like being pretty emotionally reactive,
12:35
Speaker 2: or they can slam the door in your face and
12:37
Speaker 2: go avoidant and withdraw and I show out.
12:40
Speaker 1: I've done both. Oh yeah, I think later on. Like
12:45
Speaker 1: in my younger days, it was easier for me to
12:47
Speaker 1: just get reactive. But then over time, right with the
12:52
Speaker 1: fearful avoidant, I think what happens is that reactivity no
12:56
Speaker 1: longer serves them, and so when trail happens, they're just like,
13:01
Speaker 1: well tell you boom, and they put up that wall,
13:06
Speaker 1: and that wall is hard to tear down.
13:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's not a it's not a wall of boundaries.
13:10
Speaker 2: It's a wall of I don't I'm going to stay
13:13
Speaker 2: with you, but I don't want you to be hurt.
13:16
Speaker 2: Cis thank you, yes, perfect perfectly. It's fearful of Wood's
13:22
Speaker 2: hold on to their pain. They use it as a
13:24
Speaker 2: shield because remember they're terrified of betrayal. So if they
13:27
Speaker 2: experience betrayal, they're like and in it could be a
13:30
Speaker 2: small betrayal, it could be, And for the fearful avoidant,
13:33
Speaker 2: they're so sensitive to small betrayals. Like you said you
13:37
Speaker 2: would take out the trash and you didn't. That's a
13:40
Speaker 2: small betrayal, right you you didn't do what you said
13:43
Speaker 2: you were going to do. And if I magnified that, right,
13:46
Speaker 2: then you're just somebody in general who doesn't do what
13:48
Speaker 2: they say they're to do right, or I've asked you
13:51
Speaker 2: not to do something and you did it, or you've
13:53
Speaker 2: hurt me in the same way more than once, and
13:56
Speaker 2: you know, each time that happens, it's just like a
13:59
Speaker 2: notch on the bedpost, right of like of resentment.
14:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, I had a client or a couple, and this
14:08
Speaker 1: is just an example. And it's a great example of
14:12
Speaker 1: even the tiniest thing, even when it's a nice gesture,
14:18
Speaker 1: if it's done in a way that doesn't line up
14:22
Speaker 1: with what the fearful avoidant expected, it's still a betrayal.
14:27
Speaker 2: And this was one of the most dysfunctional characters.
14:30
Speaker 1: And so this and this this specific couple. She liked
14:35
Speaker 1: to receive gifts, and but it was important to her
14:39
Speaker 1: that she got the gifts that she wanted. So to
14:43
Speaker 1: help her dismissive avoidant partner, because what a DA's love,
14:47
Speaker 1: they love list, right, she would write out a list
14:52
Speaker 1: of the things that she wanted for Christmas. And this
14:55
Speaker 1: was actually a fight that they brought to me around
14:58
Speaker 1: Christmas time. He didn't get what was on the list.
15:02
Speaker 1: Shop to the list, stick to the list, and this
15:06
Speaker 1: was a huge betrayal for her. Yeah, because he didn't
15:09
Speaker 1: stick to the list. She made it simple for him,
15:11
Speaker 1: she thought she was doing him a favor, and he's
15:14
Speaker 1: still strayed from the list.
15:18
Speaker 2: Stick to the list. What ROS said, stick to the.
15:21
Speaker 1: List, Stick to the list.
15:23
Speaker 2: No scooter, dude, yeah, no scooter. Yeah. So fearful avoidance
15:29
Speaker 2: because they have such a desire to trust you what
15:34
Speaker 2: is trust. Trust comes from intimacy. Trust comes from knowing
15:39
Speaker 2: you so well, and so they see, like, my deepest
15:43
Speaker 2: need to feel like I can trust you is to
15:45
Speaker 2: be seen, heard and understood by you, right right, So
15:48
Speaker 2: if you see me, you know me, you understand me,
15:52
Speaker 2: you should be able to swoop in there and meet
15:54
Speaker 2: my needs without me having to ask if you if
15:58
Speaker 2: if I have to ask you to do something for
15:59
Speaker 2: me to meet a need. In the fearful avoidance mind,
16:02
Speaker 2: that's like it doesn't even count because you should know
16:04
Speaker 2: me well enough, you know, to meet the need without
16:08
Speaker 2: me having to ask. And I'm not gonna lie. My
16:11
Speaker 2: husband is so good at that in my marriage, and
16:14
Speaker 2: so there's a part of me that's like, did I
16:15
Speaker 2: really heal that about myself or is he just so
16:17
Speaker 2: good at meeting my need that I'm not tested in
16:20
Speaker 2: that way anymore.
16:21
Speaker 1: Or maybe you just heal yourself enough that you attracted
16:24
Speaker 1: someone who you knew could meet all your needs.
16:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think that's the fact. That's the underlying
16:30
Speaker 2: FA in both of us, is like we we really
16:34
Speaker 2: observe and we take a lot of data. What does
16:38
Speaker 2: what does my husband need? What's going on with him,
16:40
Speaker 2: how is he feeling, what's his day?
16:42
Speaker 1: Like?
16:43
Speaker 2: What can I do to be a good wife today?
16:46
Speaker 2: And he's equally as concerned.
16:48
Speaker 1: But that's THEFA that earns security.
16:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think I think
16:54
Speaker 2: the FA in the honeymoon phase shows up that way.
16:56
Speaker 2: But then they develop so much betrayal and resentment and
16:59
Speaker 2: hurt from any conflicts that arise that they can't get
17:02
Speaker 2: over because they hold on to their pain, that they
17:04
Speaker 2: stop wanting to meet their partner's needs because they feel
17:06
Speaker 2: resentment and so biggest need. If you have an FA partner,
17:12
Speaker 2: the best thing you can do for them is hear
17:15
Speaker 2: them if they have a complaint, if they are upset,
17:18
Speaker 2: do anything you can do to avoid your own defensiveness
17:21
Speaker 2: and allow them to express their pain and then tell
17:25
Speaker 2: them I hear your pain, I see your pain, and
17:27
Speaker 2: I love you and I don't want you to feel
17:28
Speaker 2: like you're in pain, So how can I how can
17:30
Speaker 2: I meet a need for you? Or what can I
17:32
Speaker 2: do differently for you that would feel better to you? Right,
17:35
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that you should be you know, if
17:37
Speaker 2: they're using you as a punching bag, we just talked
17:39
Speaker 2: about that, of course that's not okay. But if they're
17:42
Speaker 2: just saying, hey, this is what I need in the relationship,
17:44
Speaker 2: or this thing hurt me. If you get defensive around that,
17:49
Speaker 2: it's over.
17:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's over. And I think the essay going back
17:52
Speaker 1: to the list example, I think, you know, that's essentially
17:56
Speaker 1: what had happened. But what I was trying to explain
17:59
Speaker 1: to him is it was almost like a double betrayal. Right,
18:03
Speaker 1: it was because she was doing something the FA's really
18:06
Speaker 1: aren't great at doing, which was saying, hey, this is
18:08
Speaker 1: what I want.
18:09
Speaker 2: They just want you to read their mind, right.
18:11
Speaker 1: This is what I want, this is the list. I'm
18:13
Speaker 1: making this easy for you. And then he still didn't
18:15
Speaker 1: follow through. And then when she was like, why can't
18:18
Speaker 1: you just follow through like with what the list says.
18:21
Speaker 2: The das just they haven't. And so we'll get into
18:24
Speaker 2: this with the DA. Yeah. They have spirit of rebellion.
18:27
Speaker 2: They do not want to be controlled.
18:29
Speaker 1: And he definitely did.
18:30
Speaker 2: And if you ask for something, they will almost not
18:33
Speaker 2: do it more. Yeah, like the Michael Scott like situation,
18:37
Speaker 2: like I'm gonna not do that even harder. That is
18:41
Speaker 2: the day and the FA DA combo is by far
18:44
Speaker 2: the most painful anxious. I would rather have an anxious
18:47
Speaker 2: preoccupy with a dismissive avoidance. Yeah, then I would have
18:49
Speaker 2: a fearful with a dismissive because the fearful avoidance biggest
18:53
Speaker 2: need is to be seen, heard and understood, and the
18:56
Speaker 2: dismissive avoidant is missing all the neural connections around. I'm
19:00
Speaker 2: noticing people they're so self directed because they were pushed
19:03
Speaker 2: into hyper independence, they were dismissed. The FA wants to
19:07
Speaker 2: be very vulnerable. They see vulnerability, at least in the
19:10
Speaker 2: beginning of the relationship. They see it as a source
19:14
Speaker 2: of developing trust and safety, which it is. But the
19:17
Speaker 2: only downside is then when any little thing happens, the
19:19
Speaker 2: DA is like, oh that was a mistake, or I
19:21
Speaker 2: mean the FA I'm sorry. The f A goes, oh
19:24
Speaker 2: that was a mistake. I should never have been vulnerable
19:26
Speaker 2: and open with you because you just hurt me. So
19:28
Speaker 2: then the wall goes.
19:28
Speaker 1: Up and they won't fas won't self abandoned for too long.
19:31
Speaker 1: They'll be like, oh, like they'll rebuild, right, and that
19:34
Speaker 1: that's why they have that reactivity too, like whereas the
19:37
Speaker 1: anxious preoccupied keeps trying. Yeah, they they'll just lit'll a
19:42
Speaker 1: piece of piece of peace, and I you know, it's
19:45
Speaker 1: that's dysfunctional.
19:46
Speaker 2: We know somebody that's an anxious preoccupied and this person
19:50
Speaker 2: just is.
19:50
Speaker 1: They were Yeah, yes, I mean and you know I've
19:54
Speaker 1: I know I've stated this to you recently. You know,
19:58
Speaker 1: I see it in my son. It's terrifying. It's absolutely terrifying,
20:02
Speaker 1: and I don't I want to like, I want to
20:05
Speaker 1: catch it now, you know, I want to catch it
20:07
Speaker 1: now and bring it to light because in his sweet,
20:11
Speaker 1: precious little seventeen year old young man brain, he's just like, yeah,
20:18
Speaker 1: but I'm just loving my girlfriend.
20:21
Speaker 2: But your self abandoning in the process.
20:24
Speaker 1: Well and again like he's just apologizing for things he
20:27
Speaker 1: doesn't even know he's sorry for, and like, yeah, THEFAY
20:29
Speaker 1: doesn't do that, no, no, because he just wants everyone
20:32
Speaker 1: to be emotionally okay, yeah, you know, and that's just
20:35
Speaker 1: how he's been his whole life, Like is everyone emotionally okay?
20:39
Speaker 1: And you know, Paul and I are definitely to blame
20:43
Speaker 1: for that.
20:44
Speaker 2: I understand. I mean, I totally get it, and you
20:47
Speaker 2: know in my experience as an FA, I mean I
20:51
Speaker 2: my FA traits. So let me talk about some of
20:53
Speaker 2: the FA traits. Hypervigilance already talked about that. They can
20:56
Speaker 2: be anxious or they can be avoidant. Man, they beat
20:59
Speaker 2: it dead horse like nobody's business.
21:02
Speaker 1: Why.
21:02
Speaker 2: And this is something I still struggle with. I'm not
21:06
Speaker 2: gonna lie. This is just one of those elements of
21:10
Speaker 2: my attachment that like I have to really try hard
21:14
Speaker 2: to check and my husband has to keep me in
21:15
Speaker 2: check because I want to over explain. I want to
21:19
Speaker 2: talk about it from fifty different angles, fifty different times.
21:22
Speaker 2: And what it is is this psychological need to be
21:25
Speaker 2: like you have to understand me, because if you understand me,
21:29
Speaker 2: then you'll never hurt me. And it's like I need
21:32
Speaker 2: to let go of that. Like he heard it the
21:33
Speaker 2: first time, yeah, right, Like it becomes beraatement. Yes, when
21:37
Speaker 2: you continue to talk and talk and talk and talk
21:39
Speaker 2: about the same thing. Over and over again, and so
21:42
Speaker 2: they do that. They use the moving goalpost, which is
21:45
Speaker 2: like one day they're mad at you because you didn't
21:48
Speaker 2: clean out of the garage, and the next day they're mad
21:50
Speaker 2: at you because you didn't give him a hug the
21:52
Speaker 2: next day, and they always have a problem what they're doing,
21:54
Speaker 2: and they don't even realize it is one they're so
21:58
Speaker 2: used to staying miserable, I mean fear full avoidance, sort
22:01
Speaker 2: of live in their pain, so they have to find
22:04
Speaker 2: a reason to be in pain again. They have that
22:05
Speaker 2: negative bias, but to it becomes a self conscious or
22:09
Speaker 2: subconscious So I should say test of trust, Like if
22:12
Speaker 2: I move the goalpost over here and you kick it through,
22:15
Speaker 2: I momentarily feel like you're not going to betray me,
22:17
Speaker 2: that you're going to show up for me, that you're
22:19
Speaker 2: going to meet my needs. But that doesn't last very
22:22
Speaker 2: long before my attachment kicks in and where you know,
22:25
Speaker 2: feels like I'm going to be betrayed. So let me
22:26
Speaker 2: shift to the goal post over here and see how
22:28
Speaker 2: far you'll go to kick it through and then But
22:31
Speaker 2: what ends up happening is they're creating a relationship where
22:34
Speaker 2: they are never satisfied. With their partner, and their partner
22:37
Speaker 2: gets worn out, defeated, defeated like no matter what I do,
22:41
Speaker 2: it's never enough, And that DA is so sensitive to
22:44
Speaker 2: feeling like that. Anyway, when you put an FA with
22:46
Speaker 2: a DA who is so sensitive to criticism, is so
22:49
Speaker 2: sensitive to feeling like they're not, you know, being told
22:52
Speaker 2: you're not getting it right, it just it's a disaster.
22:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is.
22:56
Speaker 2: It's a disaster. Storm, it is.
22:58
Speaker 1: It is.
22:58
Speaker 2: There the wounds of the fearful avoidant and the wounds
23:01
Speaker 2: of the dismissive avoidant trigger each other insanely, and they
23:04
Speaker 2: get into the worst toxic conflict cycle imaginable, which is
23:11
Speaker 2: the FA feels like they've been somehow not seeing her
23:14
Speaker 2: understood needs meant betrayed or hurt in some way. They
23:18
Speaker 2: bring that with all their emotional reactivity to the dismissive avoidant.
23:22
Speaker 2: Even if they try to be not critical, fas are critical.
23:25
Speaker 2: They are the DA has such a wound around criticism
23:29
Speaker 2: that they immediately feel defensive. And then what do they
23:34
Speaker 2: do when they're triggered? They shut down, so they pull
23:38
Speaker 2: away from you. And then the fas like, here, I
23:41
Speaker 2: am trying to seek a resolution and fix this and
23:44
Speaker 2: you just withdraw. You must not care about me or
23:46
Speaker 2: love me, and that's a betrayal, right, And then the
23:49
Speaker 2: fearful avoidance like, no, they struggle with wounds of defectiveness. Well,
23:54
Speaker 2: the dismissive avoidant, I should say, struggles with wounds of defectiveness.
23:59
Speaker 2: And so when the FA is criticizing the dismissive avoidant,
24:02
Speaker 2: that's immediately pigging at their defectiveness where I'm.
24:04
Speaker 1: Saying, you'll know I'll never be able to meet their needs.
24:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, And then the DA goes into there, I can't
24:08
Speaker 2: do this, I'm not built for this. They want something
24:10
Speaker 2: I can't give them.
24:12
Speaker 1: I've seen it again when I was coaching on the
24:17
Speaker 1: other side of the spectrum where this specific FA partner.
24:23
Speaker 1: I think she was anxious on the inside for sure,
24:27
Speaker 1: but you know, they'd been married for a long time,
24:30
Speaker 1: and so she became more avoidant again over the years,
24:35
Speaker 1: even though her anxiety on the inside was killing her. Yeah,
24:40
Speaker 1: because but again it stemmed from just the fear of
24:43
Speaker 1: rejection because he had shut down so many times on
24:46
Speaker 1: her that she wouldn't come to him anymore because she
24:50
Speaker 1: knew that it meant rejection, which is the worst don't
24:54
Speaker 1: tell FA.
24:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh no, that's a betrayal.
24:58
Speaker 1: Don't tell us no. And so then it was just
25:01
Speaker 1: like they lived on these two separate islands where nothing
25:03
Speaker 1: ever really got resolved, and both both were being avoidant.
25:07
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, because it's like you have the cycle. The
25:09
Speaker 2: FA's trying to work it out, the DA withdraws, the
25:11
Speaker 2: RFA is trying to work it out, the DA with draws,
25:13
Speaker 2: and eventually the FA runs out of steam and they
25:15
Speaker 2: swing into their avoidant side, and then you have two
25:17
Speaker 2: avoidant people.
25:18
Speaker 1: Right, And that's where I think people get like, that's
25:20
Speaker 1: where the confusion sets in. Yeah, And that's really what
25:23
Speaker 1: we're trying to resolve today is that you know, just
25:27
Speaker 1: because that FA over time may create that avoidance you know,
25:33
Speaker 1: or go into that OI comeside Yes, it comes from
25:37
Speaker 1: a different place, It comes from a different wound than
25:40
Speaker 1: the DA.
25:40
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely. So if we switch and talk about the DA,
25:44
Speaker 2: the DA in childhood usually didn't have trauma. I do
25:49
Speaker 2: see some das with severe trauma, and it's usually the
25:51
Speaker 2: A trauma was so severe and so young that they
25:55
Speaker 2: went into major suppression mode and they just have never
25:58
Speaker 2: come out of it. So they're DA. But the majority
26:01
Speaker 2: of das, they had parents that really showed up for
26:04
Speaker 2: them physically, so took them to the ball games, packed
26:06
Speaker 2: the lunches. You know, they were present and maybe they
26:11
Speaker 2: won't were intellectually supportive, like they problem solved with their child,
26:16
Speaker 2: but they gave no emotional attunement, so it was like,
26:19
Speaker 2: you know you want to cry, I'll give you something
26:21
Speaker 2: to cry about, right, or you know, oh, stop being
26:23
Speaker 2: so upset, don't worry about that. You're fine, every fine,
26:26
Speaker 2: Everything's fine. And parents were very avoidant during conflict, so
26:30
Speaker 2: their parents never fought, so it really reinforced this idea
26:33
Speaker 2: that conflict is conflict comfortable. Something is really bad wrong
26:38
Speaker 2: if there's a conflict in a relationship, because their parents
26:40
Speaker 2: often just went their separate ways acted like it was fine,
26:44
Speaker 2: you know when they came back together right, and didn't
26:46
Speaker 2: actually show conflict resolution or model that conflict is normal
26:51
Speaker 2: in a relationship and definitely didn't model any resolution strategies.
26:56
Speaker 2: Parents give no emotional attonement lead this child with their
27:01
Speaker 2: inability to recognize and process their own emotions, and it
27:05
Speaker 2: leaves them without the ability to understand and attune to
27:10
Speaker 2: or attend to other people's emotions. So and then the
27:13
Speaker 2: DA is very tricky because they show up really well
27:16
Speaker 2: in the beginning of relationships because they're wounds around defectiveness,
27:20
Speaker 2: around being trapped, stuck, over committed, meeting people's expectations, losing
27:24
Speaker 2: their independence. Those things are triggered with longevity in a
27:28
Speaker 2: relationship and with commitment, and then with conflict. So they're
27:32
Speaker 2: triggered by the three c's closeness, commitment, and conflict, and
27:36
Speaker 2: most of that stuff happens after the honeymoon stage. So
27:40
Speaker 2: that's why they show up so well on the honeymoon
27:42
Speaker 2: stage because they're not being triggered at all, and they
27:44
Speaker 2: can be vulnerable and effortful. But as soon as you
27:47
Speaker 2: start to say, okay, we're moving and we're getting closer
27:49
Speaker 2: and now we're having fights or you know, you get
27:52
Speaker 2: into the power struggle stage of relationships, they start to
27:55
Speaker 2: really shut down. Their whole demeanor changes, their entire changes.
28:02
Speaker 2: They withdraw emotionally, physically. Sometimes they just become less communicative,
28:08
Speaker 2: they become less affectionate, they stop planning things with you,
28:12
Speaker 2: they stop giving you as much quality time, they just
28:16
Speaker 2: drift away.
28:17
Speaker 1: I think that again, this is one of the this
28:19
Speaker 1: is why people are just their minds are boggled because
28:23
Speaker 1: of this specific point.
28:25
Speaker 2: It's a bait and switch, yeah, but it's not a
28:26
Speaker 2: purposeful one.
28:27
Speaker 1: No, no again doesn't mean that you have to accept it. No.
28:31
Speaker 1: In fact, it's why you say, like people get so
28:33
Speaker 1: offended about this too when you're like, if you're in
28:35
Speaker 1: the dating phase with the da run go run and
28:40
Speaker 1: they And it's not because you're you're trying to to say, oh,
28:45
Speaker 1: das are terrible, they're No, it's saying, hey, unless they
28:48
Speaker 1: can recognize that they have these behaviors and like, they're
28:53
Speaker 1: most likely not going to change, and then you're going
28:55
Speaker 1: to be stuck in a cycle with them, and two
28:57
Speaker 1: years is going to go by and you're going to
28:59
Speaker 1: be wondering why they can't meet your.
29:01
Speaker 2: Need and you're gonna be begging for the bare minimum
29:03
Speaker 2: right in that relationship, Right, you're gonna be begging. I
29:06
Speaker 2: have people that come to me and they've been neglected
29:10
Speaker 2: so long. They're like, why I ask my husband for
29:12
Speaker 2: this thing? Yesterday, Like I asked them if I could
29:14
Speaker 2: have a hug, and they wouldn't even give them a hug.
29:16
Speaker 2: They was like, I had a long day, I need
29:19
Speaker 2: a shower, worked hard, like, let me just you know,
29:22
Speaker 2: like later, yeah, right, And I'm like, you asked your
29:25
Speaker 2: spouse for a hug and they wouldn't give a hug,
29:28
Speaker 2: Like can you imagine? No, I couldn't, Like that is
29:31
Speaker 2: not even that's bare minimum like basic need, and they
29:37
Speaker 2: get so they're so far removed from a normal, healthy,
29:42
Speaker 2: secure relationship when they're with a dismissive avoidant that they
29:45
Speaker 2: don't even remember or understand what a secure relationship looks
29:50
Speaker 2: like because they're so used to such profound neglect. And
29:54
Speaker 2: so what happens with the dismissive avoidant is they just
29:58
Speaker 2: they have so many wounds around being trapped, being controlled,
30:02
Speaker 2: being smothered, and around having to meet other people's expectations
30:06
Speaker 2: because they were pushed into hyper independence. And then they
30:08
Speaker 2: get so uncomfortable with intimacy because if nobody ever taught
30:11
Speaker 2: you how to deal with your own emotions and you
30:13
Speaker 2: just shove them down when someone brings you emotion to you,
30:17
Speaker 2: it feels so overwhelming. And then they get confused, they're like,
30:20
Speaker 2: why are you telling me these things? Like their blueprint
30:23
Speaker 2: is like, hey, if you want to have emotions, cool,
30:25
Speaker 2: but go over there and deal with them by your cold,
30:27
Speaker 2: and when you're done, come back and we'll have fun.
30:29
Speaker 2: Right to them, there's there's no concept of coregulation. It's
30:33
Speaker 2: absolutely out the window, right, there's none of that. And
30:38
Speaker 2: then they just feel like, oh my gosh, my partner
30:42
Speaker 2: always has a problem. They're always criticizing me. They're always
30:45
Speaker 2: saying I'm not doing enough, they're always you know, and
30:47
Speaker 2: then that just makes someone to withdraw more. So then
30:50
Speaker 2: you just have someone that's constantly pulling back more and
30:53
Speaker 2: more and more and more, and so they're like a
30:55
Speaker 2: ghost in the relationship. I've had clients say I genuinely
30:59
Speaker 2: wonder every day if my husband even likes me, my
31:02
Speaker 2: husband has even thought about me today.
31:06
Speaker 1: I had a client, and this is an interesting point
31:08
Speaker 1: to make. I think. I had a client who was
31:12
Speaker 1: extreme dismissive avoidant and had been married for twenty plus years,
31:18
Speaker 1: and his wife, whom I coached one time, who appeared
31:21
Speaker 1: pretty secure, said that she preferred for her husband to
31:26
Speaker 1: drink because when he drank, he was more attentive, more affectionate,
31:32
Speaker 1: and more tuned to her all the time.
31:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, DA's drink to feel fas drink to try to
31:38
Speaker 2: to not feel, to not feel because they feel too
31:40
Speaker 2: much all the time. Her DA is mostly engaging in
31:43
Speaker 2: emotional suppression. And here's the thing about emotional suppression. You
31:47
Speaker 2: don't get to choose what emotions you suppressed. Yeah, when
31:49
Speaker 2: you suppress pain, you're suppressing your capacity for joy. A
31:53
Speaker 2: lot of das are like low level depressed, and they
31:55
Speaker 2: had like the tiniest emotional bandwidth, right, they're just But
31:59
Speaker 2: the reason that like the very emotionally turbulent FA is
32:03
Speaker 2: so attracted to the DA in the dating phase is
32:06
Speaker 2: because of their like stability, Like they're study, they don't
32:10
Speaker 2: get too upset about anything. They're so easy. They seem
32:13
Speaker 2: to be really go with the flow, you know, and
32:16
Speaker 2: they feel really safe with the DA at first because
32:20
Speaker 2: they usually are coming from like a narcissistically abusive relationship
32:23
Speaker 2: or they're used to lots of emotional turmoil. So they
32:26
Speaker 2: find this this guy who's so stoic and like get
32:31
Speaker 2: bad about things, just kind of like oh, it's okay,
32:35
Speaker 2: you know, And then they're like, oh, but then that
32:39
Speaker 2: guy remains stoic, Yeah, when he should be up in
32:46
Speaker 2: his game in terms of intimacy. As the relationship progresses,
32:49
Speaker 2: he slows his intimacy game. He withdraws the intimacy because
32:54
Speaker 2: those wounds around. Oh now I'm trapped, Now I'm stuck.
32:57
Speaker 2: Now I have to meet someone else else's expectations. Now
33:00
Speaker 2: I've lost my independence. All of those start really rising
33:04
Speaker 2: and really suppressing the feelings that they have for their partner.
33:08
Speaker 1: Do you think das too, I know that you said
33:10
Speaker 1: that you know, intimacy can kind of go away, but
33:13
Speaker 1: do you think they also use intimacy as a way
33:16
Speaker 1: to connect or cover up or blanket like their suppression,
33:22
Speaker 1: Like it's the only way that they feel like, because
33:24
Speaker 1: I've had some clients dealing with DA partners who actually
33:29
Speaker 1: a question that I got was, can my partner be
33:32
Speaker 1: DA but still want to have, you know, be intimate
33:37
Speaker 1: with me all the time physically?
33:38
Speaker 2: And yeah, yeah, because that's the safest form of intimacy
33:42
Speaker 2: right right. It's closeness without a lot of the talking.
33:45
Speaker 1: And the emotional part.
33:47
Speaker 2: Yeah. So a lot of das really crave physical intimacy.
33:51
Speaker 1: And they'll keep their eyes closed the whole time.
33:58
Speaker 2: Their eyes, yeah, because that would be too intimate. Right.
34:02
Speaker 2: But then in some cases das actually drop off in
34:06
Speaker 2: sexual intimacy over time. Oh I said that word. They
34:09
Speaker 2: let me say it, it's just an s work, so
34:16
Speaker 2: they they feel like it it's another expectation. And I
34:19
Speaker 2: definitely see this more on DA women, which DA women
34:22
Speaker 2: confuse everybody because we have the gendered stereotype that women
34:27
Speaker 2: are intimate and vulnerable and they have all these feelings
34:30
Speaker 2: and they want to talk all the time. And so
34:32
Speaker 2: there the DA woman gets with like an FA man
34:35
Speaker 2: who's like emotional and who wants intimacy, and that here
34:39
Speaker 2: they have this woman that the society has said, women
34:42
Speaker 2: want feelings, they want closeness, they want these and they're
34:45
Speaker 2: trying to give that and the DA woman's like pushing
34:48
Speaker 2: them away and they're like, what is going on here?
34:50
Speaker 2: Because it's not meeting the feminine stereotype. And that's why
34:53
Speaker 2: I hurt gender stereotypes and romantic relationships. Like when if
34:58
Speaker 2: you ever have someone that's like all only speaking about
35:01
Speaker 2: women need this and men need this, drop them as
35:04
Speaker 2: a relationship.
35:04
Speaker 1: So glad you're clarifying this too, because I actually read
35:07
Speaker 1: a comment a review on our podcast and I think
35:11
Speaker 1: he gave it he or she gave us three stars
35:14
Speaker 1: because they felt like we weren't touching on, you know,
35:20
Speaker 1: relationships out of just a heterosexual relationship. But but what
35:24
Speaker 1: we want to clarify is that attachment is not gender specific.
35:28
Speaker 2: It's not.
35:28
Speaker 1: No, it doesn't matter.
35:30
Speaker 2: That's right. It does mean to women to matter, it
35:32
Speaker 2: could be it's all I don't know.
35:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't matter, that's right.
35:35
Speaker 2: That's not my lens. Yeah, because it's not a great
35:38
Speaker 2: predictive lens. And if you exactly the science, gender does
35:42
Speaker 2: not predict romantic relationship behavior that much.
35:45
Speaker 1: No, it doesn't. I don't know that review. We appreciate
35:47
Speaker 1: your reviews, and you want to be clear on that.
35:49
Speaker 2: Let's clarify.
35:50
Speaker 1: But yeah, this isn't we're not We're not honing in
35:53
Speaker 1: hetero sexual relationships only because it's just not gender specific.
35:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so, and it would it would us too much,
36:01
Speaker 2: It would definitely limit us.
36:02
Speaker 1: Be silly for us to do that.
36:03
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, is there is such a thing as like
36:05
Speaker 2: masculine and feminine energy, yes, and does that have some role, yes,
36:10
Speaker 2: But attachment is a way bigger predictor of people's needs,
36:14
Speaker 2: of people's wounds, of people's behaviors inside of a relationship.
36:18
Speaker 2: There's just it's just way better of a predictor. And
36:23
Speaker 2: how do I know that because we have scientific research
36:26
Speaker 2: and we've built models of prediction. So this is like,
36:30
Speaker 2: this is going into the science and the statistics. We
36:33
Speaker 2: actually can build statistical models and have an outcome variable
36:38
Speaker 2: like reactivity during conflict. Maybe that's our outcome that we're
36:41
Speaker 2: looking at, and we want to know what goes into
36:43
Speaker 2: predicting how reactive somebody will be during conflict. Guess what
36:48
Speaker 2: predicts that the most? Their attachment?
36:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, yeah, not their gender.
36:53
Speaker 2: Not their gender, their attachment. Yeah, because I've seen women
36:56
Speaker 2: that can fly off the handle and I've seen men
36:58
Speaker 2: that can fly off the handle, and I see no
37:00
Speaker 2: relative difference in the amount of those people. But what
37:02
Speaker 2: brings them together is, oh, you're probably a fear full
37:05
Speaker 2: avoidant yep, because that attachment are the are the reactive ones? Yeah,
37:11
Speaker 2: And so I can usually say you're probably a fear
37:13
Speaker 2: full avoidant if you're reactive during conflict. And let me
37:16
Speaker 2: talk about your childhood. Where was the trauma? I always
37:19
Speaker 2: find it.
37:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very predictable.
37:21
Speaker 2: Extremely predictable, right, And so you know why it's why
37:26
Speaker 2: I use that lens, because it's just there's science.
37:30
Speaker 1: There talk a little bit about that because you know,
37:34
Speaker 1: I get a lot of messages to you know, people
37:36
Speaker 1: are like, well, you know, and this is something that
37:38
Speaker 1: of course you do within your practice, So you do.
37:42
Speaker 1: I understand that you have to probably gate keep a
37:44
Speaker 1: little bit, but you know, talk about how you do
37:48
Speaker 1: the attachment theory assessment on specific clients and what that
37:53
Speaker 1: looks like.
37:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I use the adult attachment interview a version
38:01
Speaker 2: of it to I look at a lot of different
38:04
Speaker 2: areas of the person's life and their behavior and romantic relationships,
38:10
Speaker 2: and there are there are key things that I look
38:13
Speaker 2: for in those things, right, there are key indicators of
38:18
Speaker 2: the different attachment styles. Right, So you know, if we're
38:21
Speaker 2: talking about like conflict and reactivity, das really are not
38:26
Speaker 2: that reactive in conflict. They shut down way too soon
38:29
Speaker 2: to be reactive. I mean they might mount some intellectual defensiveness,
38:33
Speaker 2: but then quickly they're.
38:34
Speaker 1: Going to pack.
38:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, the ap is going to cry and apologize. Right,
38:39
Speaker 2: That's like a key indicator you know, as childhood experiences
38:44
Speaker 2: the ability to be emotionally vulnerable. There are a lot
38:46
Speaker 2: of different nuances and attachment, but there are some quantitative
38:51
Speaker 2: attachment measures that should be given, you know, by professionals.
38:58
Speaker 2: But I think, you know, I really looking tolish a
39:00
Speaker 2: paper on just some modifications of the adult attachment interview
39:07
Speaker 2: that I have used that I think are very predictive of.
39:10
Speaker 1: Attachments because because you know, people ask, you know, what's
39:12
Speaker 1: an online test?
39:13
Speaker 2: Second tell, oh, my gosh, no, you can't rely on
39:15
Speaker 2: those online quizzes. And let me tell you why. So
39:18
Speaker 2: people don't realize that psychologists are some of the most
39:20
Speaker 2: rigorously trained scientists that exist because we have to measure
39:23
Speaker 2: things that we can't We can't.
39:25
Speaker 1: Say it in your hand.
39:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not tangible thoughts, people's emotions, you know, And
39:29
Speaker 2: so we are trained in a science called psychometrics. And actually,
39:36
Speaker 2: before I did relationship coaching, I was a professor of
39:39
Speaker 2: psychology for a number of years. I was a director
39:43
Speaker 2: of a psychology program at a university for a number
39:45
Speaker 2: of years, and I was in charge of teaching research
39:48
Speaker 2: methods statistics and psychometrics. And psychometrics is the science of
39:53
Speaker 2: building assessments. So we're assessing a psychological construct like attachment
39:58
Speaker 2: or depression, or anxiety, or gratitude or optimism or whatever
40:03
Speaker 2: it is. Those are all psychological constructs. We have to
40:06
Speaker 2: come up with questions on a questionnaire that measure those things,
40:11
Speaker 2: both reliably and validly. So reliability is the idea that
40:16
Speaker 2: the assessment if what you're measuring didn't change. Like if
40:19
Speaker 2: I were giving you an IQ test that I created,
40:22
Speaker 2: it should show today if you took it the same
40:25
Speaker 2: IQ as if you took it tomorrow, right and took
40:27
Speaker 2: it the next day, your IQ shouldn't change day to day.
40:30
Speaker 2: That's an indicator that my assessment is reliable. Right, It's
40:33
Speaker 2: going to produce the same results over time, given that
40:37
Speaker 2: we're what we're measuring isn't actually changing. Validity is the
40:40
Speaker 2: idea that you're measuring what you're supposed to measure, right,
40:43
Speaker 2: So maybe I think I'm measuring IQ, but really I'm
40:47
Speaker 2: just measuring some other psychological construct. So we have lots
40:51
Speaker 2: of different testing so there's this really long scientific process
40:56
Speaker 2: that assessments have to go through. Okay, so when people
40:59
Speaker 2: make these online quizzes, they mean absolutely nothing. They are
41:03
Speaker 2: completely invalid. They give you no real information. It's pseudoscience
41:09
Speaker 2: at it's best, and you need to stay away from
41:11
Speaker 2: those things. Stay away from online quizzes about your attachment
41:14
Speaker 2: or about anything.
41:15
Speaker 1: Joined doctor Hinsley's group instead.
41:17
Speaker 2: So psychometrics. So what do we do? So we create questions,
41:22
Speaker 2: we give them out to populations and we pilot test it.
41:25
Speaker 2: We get initial data, we look at how well do
41:27
Speaker 2: some of these items correlate with one another. We can
41:30
Speaker 2: run certain validity assessments on them. There's different types of validity,
41:35
Speaker 2: and we have to measure all these different types of validity.
41:38
Speaker 2: We gave it to more people, and we come back
41:41
Speaker 2: and we revise, and we give it to more people
41:42
Speaker 2: and we come back and revise. But we're using math,
41:45
Speaker 2: we're using statistics to analyze how well these items are
41:50
Speaker 2: correlating with each other, how well they're correlating with items
41:53
Speaker 2: that are not supposed to be measuring the same thing.
41:56
Speaker 2: We ask the same thing in different ways to test
42:00
Speaker 2: to see if people are responding in similar ways. It
42:03
Speaker 2: is a very lengthy and scientific process. It takes years
42:08
Speaker 2: to create a reliable and valid psychological assessment of something.
42:13
Speaker 1: It makes sense why I would yeah.
42:14
Speaker 2: And so because we want to be careful, because we
42:17
Speaker 2: and people think that psychology is just this armchair discipline
42:20
Speaker 2: where people just make stuff up right and nothing can
42:22
Speaker 2: be further from the truth. And so when people come
42:24
Speaker 2: to me all the time, they go, well, I took
42:26
Speaker 2: this on Lanquids and it says I'm an anxious attachment.
42:28
Speaker 2: But I thought I was a dismissive all avoidant. And
42:30
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my god, of course, so oh my gosh,
42:33
Speaker 2: like yes.
42:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's why we're trying to settle, like we're
42:36
Speaker 1: trying to settle a lot here.
42:38
Speaker 2: Yes. So the reason that I use an interview is
42:41
Speaker 2: because I can capture nuances right, and I can probe right.
42:46
Speaker 2: So it's like I had a great childhood. I had
42:47
Speaker 2: a grea childhood. I had a great childhood. Okay, well,
42:50
Speaker 2: so if you were upset about something, could you go
42:52
Speaker 2: talk to your parents about your emotions?
42:55
Speaker 1: Well?
42:55
Speaker 2: No, why would I do that? Yeah, I'm like, well,
42:58
Speaker 2: I don't know. Why wouldn't you do it? Tell me? Well,
43:01
Speaker 2: because we just didn't do that in my family. Oh
43:04
Speaker 2: ding ding ding? Yeah yeah, okay, yeah, you guys didn't
43:07
Speaker 2: talk about feelings, did you know?
43:10
Speaker 1: We didn't.
43:11
Speaker 2: Maybe they would. I might say what do I do?
43:13
Speaker 2: And they might say, well, maybe you should go to
43:14
Speaker 2: a B or C. But I wouldn't say, wow, I'm
43:16
Speaker 2: feeling so sad right now or I'm feeling so confused
43:19
Speaker 2: right now or I feel so rejected right now. It's
43:21
Speaker 2: really painful for me. Those children didn't voice that to
43:24
Speaker 2: their parents because their parents would have not any clue
43:27
Speaker 2: how to deal with that. They were taught at a
43:29
Speaker 2: young age. Hey, if you're upset, don't bring it to me.
43:33
Speaker 2: Just still with it, deal with it. Go Yeah, I
43:35
Speaker 2: don't what do you want me to do about it?
43:36
Speaker 1: Right?
43:36
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, yeah, calm down, life's tough, get over it.
43:40
Speaker 1: And if if you weren't raised that way, and you
43:42
Speaker 1: didn't have parents who did that, then you don't know, right,
43:45
Speaker 1: you don't know what you don't know.
43:46
Speaker 2: You don't know that that should have been a normal
43:48
Speaker 2: part of your development, right, Yeah, And it fascinates me.
43:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, it fascinates me.
43:54
Speaker 2: Some people are like, just no exposure to me. So
43:58
Speaker 2: because I had a dad that was overly emotion So
44:00
Speaker 2: even though you know, there were times where I might
44:02
Speaker 2: not have received as much emotional attunement as I needed,
44:06
Speaker 2: my mom really tried. My mom's a dismissive avoidant. My
44:08
Speaker 2: mom she did try, she did try. But my dad
44:13
Speaker 2: I saw so much emotional expression and so much volatile emotion.
44:17
Speaker 2: That emotion was a big part of my household, right,
44:20
Speaker 2: but I can imagine like my ex's my ex boyfriends
44:25
Speaker 2: is a very severe DA. I saw how his family
44:28
Speaker 2: dynamic operated, and they were super close, but they didn't
44:33
Speaker 2: talk about anything problem, anything serious, anything serious, all jokes.
44:38
Speaker 2: It was all having fun and if something serious came up,
44:41
Speaker 2: they just all isolated. They all went their second grade
44:45
Speaker 2: got weird, and then they would just let time pass
44:47
Speaker 2: and then things would come like if there was a
44:49
Speaker 2: conflict or anybody had a problem, they didn't.
44:52
Speaker 1: I could not think, for hell, like just because of
44:57
Speaker 1: how I was raised, Like I lived in a very
44:59
Speaker 1: emotion household too, but like I wear my heart on
45:03
Speaker 1: my sleeve, like it's right there, yeah, and so like
45:06
Speaker 1: I like to get stuff out. I like to get
45:08
Speaker 1: over it and then move on. I could not imagine
45:10
Speaker 1: if things just got like super weird and awkward and
45:12
Speaker 1: I was just like this all the time, like and
45:14
Speaker 1: I couldn't express myself because I had this partner. And
45:18
Speaker 1: I imagine this is what it's like for the FA
45:20
Speaker 1: who is stuck in that long term marriage with their
45:24
Speaker 1: DA partner, and it's just like this feeling of like
45:29
Speaker 1: this heavy awkwardness. I'd rather scream my lungs out.
45:33
Speaker 2: That relationship with the DA will become more and more
45:37
Speaker 2: and more surface level over time and less and less
45:41
Speaker 2: intimate over time. And that is it's just so painful.
45:46
Speaker 2: It's just a it's a painful feeling of being rejected
45:50
Speaker 2: by someone and the DA honestly they don't know. Yeah,
45:54
Speaker 2: they don't see it. They feel like you're just too neating,
45:58
Speaker 2: Like why do you need so much? It's like, no,
46:01
Speaker 2: we just need the basic elements of intimacy here. Yeah,
46:05
Speaker 2: And that's just a foreign concept to a lot of
46:07
Speaker 2: das unfortunately, and it's painful for them too, because imagine
46:12
Speaker 2: feeling emotionally blended all the time.
46:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, imagine just feeling in state of just it would
46:17
Speaker 1: be my hell numbness. Yeah, because I'm animated, Like I'm
46:20
Speaker 1: a very animated person, Like I would both talk with
46:23
Speaker 1: my hands, like I feel a lot like my whole body.
46:26
Speaker 2: Daughters make fun of me.
46:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So I couldn't imagine feeling stunted all the time.
46:32
Speaker 2: And then incapable, Yeah, not knowing what to do. It
46:35
Speaker 2: would be awful, just feeling like the only way I
46:38
Speaker 2: can help the situation is to leave the situation. And
46:41
Speaker 2: that's why das with I mean they just withdraw and
46:43
Speaker 2: they freeze and they don't know what to say. And
46:46
Speaker 2: so what I need to clear up is if you
46:48
Speaker 2: have a DA partner, you have to know when they
46:50
Speaker 2: pull away, it's not because they don't care. Yeah, it's
46:53
Speaker 2: because their nervous system is being so activated, their wounds
46:57
Speaker 2: are being so activated that they shut down and they
47:00
Speaker 2: freeze up and they lose their capacity to connect. And
47:03
Speaker 2: so for DA's at true and fas too, for FA's
47:06
Speaker 2: emotional reactivity and the DA's withdraw, it's a capacity issue.
47:09
Speaker 1: Yeah.
47:10
Speaker 2: They cannot regulate their trauma responses when they are triggered.
47:13
Speaker 2: And that's what I teach people to do. Yeah, that's
47:15
Speaker 2: how you get into secure attachment. You have to dismantle
47:18
Speaker 2: the trigger cycle at every level, and you have to
47:21
Speaker 2: learn to be an emotionally and cognitively regulated human.
47:25
Speaker 1: Yeah. I do want to clear up one more thing, yeah,
47:28
Speaker 1: before we wrap up, which is because people get this
47:31
Speaker 1: confused as well, and I know the science changed, and
47:34
Speaker 1: I want you to explain it. Okay, disorganized attachment just
47:38
Speaker 1: because people get that confused with DA, but disorganized attachment
47:42
Speaker 1: was the original title given to the fearful avoidant. Correct,
47:45
Speaker 1: So please okay, love of all things wonderful out there,
47:49
Speaker 1: clear that up for everybody.
47:50
Speaker 2: So that term disorganized attachment was really created and looking
47:53
Speaker 2: at infants and children and how they responded to their
47:57
Speaker 2: caregivers and that those they notice that those individuals would
48:01
Speaker 2: respond in a disorganized manners. So sometimes they might try
48:04
Speaker 2: to really connect and seek attachment, and other times they
48:07
Speaker 2: would withdraw or push their caregiver away. And so that's
48:10
Speaker 2: a disorganized pattern of relating to someone. So the anxious
48:13
Speaker 2: preoccupied person, they have a very predictable pattern. I'm always
48:18
Speaker 2: trying to activate and come closer to my partner. The
48:20
Speaker 2: dismissive avoidant has a very organized pattern of relating. I'm
48:24
Speaker 2: always pulling back from my partner. But the fearful avoidant
48:27
Speaker 2: is disorganized in their relating. They come close and then
48:30
Speaker 2: they pull away, and then they come close and then
48:32
Speaker 2: they pull away, and they alternate these strategies in no
48:37
Speaker 2: apparent real pattern that can be predicted. It's just based
48:41
Speaker 2: on what's going on in the relationship and how they're
48:43
Speaker 2: feeling and what was triggered. And so as we refined
48:48
Speaker 2: the literature a little bit more and started looking at
48:50
Speaker 2: how attachment affects adult romantic relationships. We really saw clearly
48:56
Speaker 2: that there were two types of avoidant people. And in
49:00
Speaker 2: terms of the adult romantic attachment literature, and even like
49:04
Speaker 2: the book Attached kind of does this, and so many
49:08
Speaker 2: bad attachment coaches out there do this. They just categorize
49:12
Speaker 2: people as anxious or avoidant, and it does not capture
49:15
Speaker 2: the complexity of the fearful avoidant. So really newer, newer research,
49:19
Speaker 2: and by newer, I mean like in the last twenty
49:21
Speaker 2: thirty years. You know, that's actually newer because attachment theory
49:25
Speaker 2: has been around since like the nineteen fifties. So really
49:30
Speaker 2: divided the avoidant up into the fearful. Fearful avoidance avoid
49:34
Speaker 2: because they are afraid of betrayal.
49:37
Speaker 1: Right, the reason that's why avoidant.
49:40
Speaker 2: Dismissive avoidance avoid because they're overwhelmed. They're dismissing you. They
49:45
Speaker 2: want to get away from you because you're overwhelming them.
49:48
Speaker 2: Fearful avoidance really want to connect, but they're scared of
49:50
Speaker 2: being hurt, so they don't always connect. Sometimes they withdraw
49:53
Speaker 2: to protect themselves. The dismissive avoidant is not avoiding because
49:56
Speaker 2: they're truly like afraid of being hurt. They're avoiding because
50:01
Speaker 2: they're overwhelmed. And if they're afraid of anything, it's losing
50:04
Speaker 2: their own independence, right right, right, it's not afraid of
50:08
Speaker 2: being afraid of you hurting them. It's like, you're too
50:11
Speaker 2: much for me, you need too much for me, you
50:13
Speaker 2: want too much for me. I don't want to have
50:14
Speaker 2: to give like that, so kind of give me some
50:16
Speaker 2: breathing room. You're smothering me. See.
50:18
Speaker 1: So this is so helpful because I know that people
50:21
Speaker 1: really get the disorganized attachment. Just know that that's not
50:24
Speaker 1: even a term that they really use anymore that much.
50:26
Speaker 1: And when it comes to attachment theory.
50:28
Speaker 2: Some therapists do use it and it's well meaning, yeah,
50:31
Speaker 2: you know, because it's it was the term that that
50:35
Speaker 2: was used for a long time. Yeah, but if we're
50:38
Speaker 2: really getting clear on adult romantic behavior, we really should yep,
50:45
Speaker 2: fearful of what it in dismissible avoidment.
50:46
Speaker 1: So I hope this clears it up for everyone. So, yes,
50:51
Speaker 1: this is a great one to tune into because.
50:54
Speaker 2: A lot of people come to me and they think
50:55
Speaker 2: they're DA and they're really FA or the and they're
50:57
Speaker 2: really DA.
50:58
Speaker 1: Yes. So for all those out there that have been
51:01
Speaker 1: messaging you know asking, hey, where's a quiz? Where can
51:04
Speaker 1: I figure it? You just need to listen to this
51:06
Speaker 1: episode and maybe it would give you. It'll give you
51:08
Speaker 1: some insight into which attachment style you identify with the most.
51:12
Speaker 2: And my course, just my online course you know, on
51:14
Speaker 2: my website, Achieving Attachment Security will really take a deep
51:17
Speaker 2: diet and it will help you determine your attachment style.
51:20
Speaker 2: It will help you determine your partner's attachment style. And
51:22
Speaker 2: then I'm going to give you all the tools.
51:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, to earn your attachment security. Because you know, one
51:28
Speaker 1: thing that we don't want everyone to really fixate on
51:31
Speaker 1: is and this was something that I really honed in
51:34
Speaker 1: on when I was coaching, is that it's more important
51:38
Speaker 1: to focus on earning your attachment security versus what attachment
51:43
Speaker 1: style you have. Right, so the focus should be how
51:47
Speaker 1: do I get better and so, And that's exactly what
51:51
Speaker 1: doctor Hinsley does, you know, with in her course and
51:53
Speaker 1: in her hybrid group coaching program.
51:55
Speaker 2: Which is the course plus yes meetings with me Yes,
51:58
Speaker 2: So another step further. Another thing we're seeing is that
52:01
Speaker 2: a lot of people are buying the course, which is great,
52:03
Speaker 2: you know, but if you have lots and lots of questions, Like,
52:07
Speaker 2: the group experience is there for you to troubleshoot what
52:12
Speaker 2: you're learning in the course, right, So if it's like
52:14
Speaker 2: how do I apply this to my specific relationship, that's
52:17
Speaker 2: one you need to purchase the group portion of it
52:20
Speaker 2: because you can buy you can buy it without the group,
52:22
Speaker 2: you can buy it alone, but the group really gives
52:26
Speaker 2: you that benefit and you can remain anonymous in the group.
52:28
Speaker 2: A lot of people are like, I don't want to
52:29
Speaker 2: be a great they're.
52:31
Speaker 1: Groups, you know people, you know, you get the individualized attention.
52:36
Speaker 1: And if you've bought the course and you want to
52:38
Speaker 1: come back and take the group we can help you there.
52:41
Speaker 1: Just reach out, you know, contact us on the website
52:43
Speaker 1: because we can give you a code to just purchase
52:46
Speaker 1: the group calls. Yeah, because a lot of people don't.
52:50
Speaker 1: I don't feel like a lot of people recognize like, Okay,
52:52
Speaker 1: well here's the course and it's great because it's this
52:55
Speaker 1: pace that you get to go at like to self learn.
52:58
Speaker 1: But if you have a lot of questions, that's the
53:00
Speaker 1: group calls are for and you got to add those on.
53:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the ultimate learning experience that the hybrid group
53:07
Speaker 2: is the ultimate and it's so good for DASH and
53:10
Speaker 2: it's so good, it's so perfect for das they do
53:14
Speaker 2: a thousand times better in the group than they do
53:17
Speaker 2: one on one.
53:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, or just self learning. Yeah, and listen, I know
53:22
Speaker 1: I say it all the time, and I'm going to
53:24
Speaker 1: say it again, and I'm just gonna keep on saying it.
53:27
Speaker 1: I've set in on doctor Hinsley's group coaching program multiple times,
53:30
Speaker 1: just you know, when I was coaching and trying to learn,
53:33
Speaker 1: and I learned something new every single time. And it's
53:37
Speaker 1: just the knowledge that she can provide and the light
53:40
Speaker 1: bulbs that start to go off, you're just like, it
53:43
Speaker 1: just starts to make sense. It really does, and you're
53:47
Speaker 1: just worth every single penny. So if you want to
53:51
Speaker 1: check that out, go to the Datingdecoder dot com look
53:54
Speaker 1: at all her services, and please, again, if you're enjoying
53:59
Speaker 1: what we're offering here, continue to listen, continue to tune in,
54:02
Speaker 1: continue to watch, like, subscribe, leave a review. We prefer
54:05
Speaker 1: five stars, obviously, but we are open to feedback and
54:11
Speaker 1: we're you know, our goal hopefully in the future is
54:14
Speaker 1: you know, to have you guys write in tell us
54:17
Speaker 1: what you want to hear.
54:18
Speaker 2: About have guests.
54:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, we want to have guests. We want doctor Hinsley
54:21
Speaker 1: to actually coach someone live one of the podcasts.
54:25
Speaker 2: So I'd like to do that.
54:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna have there's gonna be lots
54:29
Speaker 1: to come once we you know, we're just getting our
54:31
Speaker 1: feet wet.
54:31
Speaker 2: So I've never done a podcast. We know what we're doing.
54:33
Speaker 1: We're just kind of like, let's let's do a podcast
54:36
Speaker 1: and then it's just you know, here we are. So
54:38
Speaker 1: we just appreciate all of you guys for tuning in.
54:40
Speaker 1: We'd love you all and until next time, peace, love
54:43
Speaker 1: and perspective