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#1588 Morbidity & Mortality - Francis Leach · The You Project

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: I'll get a team.
• 0:02
  Speaker 2: Welcome to another installment of the project. That's you, It's Jumbo,
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: it's Fatty Harps, It's Craig Anthony, half of the kid
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: from the Country.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: It's Francis. Is it Patrick?
• 0:10
  Speaker 3: Michael Patrick Michael.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Francis Michael? Fuck? That's the most Catholic name ever. Francis Michael.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: Peter Leech is one of those a what we Catholics
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: called we all of a sudden, I'm a Catholic?
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Is what? Really? It's one of those a confirmation.
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: Yes, Peter, you had to choose it. I chose Peter
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: because Peter, you know, it's sort of like these days
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: it could be kind of cool because Peter was the
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: rock of the church on which the church was got
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: so I was kind of like the rock, as in,
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: were you though.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: I don't I don't know that you were the rock
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: that Jesus built his church on. But all right, yeah, well,
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: so for the non Catholics, for the non Catholics that
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: are like, what the fuck? So when you're when you're
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: about thirteen, you undergo this thing or you go through this,
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: but what is it a ritual.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Process of right to fuck?
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: Some some Catholic kind of called a confirmation and you
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: get to you get to choose the name, and you
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: have a you have a name that goes on.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: You know. So I'm Craig Anthony.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: Mine was meant to be Mark, and he called me Paul,
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: and I'm like, so I was confused. So anyway, he goes,
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: I confirm you Craig Anthony Paul. I'm like, Champ, that's
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: the wrong name. But I didn't obviously say that because
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: I was fourteen year old in is Q a fat
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: kid or thirteen, So I just went right Paul.
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: You had to. It had to be like an Apostles
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: name or a Saints dame. It couldn't just become Francis Michael,
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: Dante Leech. She couldn't go Francis Michael, Muhammad or Leech.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: You had yeah, oh yeah, yeah, Craig Anthony Shakira.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: To be much more popular if you could choose like
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: a really hip name.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: Oh, I'll tell you what. There are a whole range
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: of reasons. Let's not start on the Catholic Church. But
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: it's just if anyone's got some fucking marketing and branding
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: and pr work to do. Anyway, let's not open that door.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: How are you well, I know how you are.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: You're busy?
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: Are you all okay? But you know, I think you
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: and I are roll in the same boat at the
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: moment without you know, let's talk about the thing that
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: we've been talking about when we haven't been talking on here,
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: and that is mortality and aging, and it's everywhere at
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: the moment, Craig, I mean, you know, you know my
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: love politics, and suddenly aging immortality has become not just
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: a national conversation United States, it's the global conversation. As
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: you watch Joe Biden right before our eyes, President Joe Biden,
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: right before hours deal with being an eighty one going
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: an eighty teen year old man himself in real time
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: on the world stage, coming to terms or in fact
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: not coming to terms with the fact that age, despite
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: all of his achievements and all the things that he
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: thinks he can do, is wearing him down. And it
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: just reminds us all the mortality comes to everyone, and
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: you and I both dealing with that in our own
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: lives with our parents at the moment, and it's the
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: one road we might take as many different parts in
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: life as we choose that everybody will have a different
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: maleways for their life, you know, which you know, no
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: matter how many things are similar and how many things
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: we shared, the will always be a bit like our
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: DNA or you know, there'll be a different road. We've
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: all got a different road, but it all ends at
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: the same spot. And that's a really confronting thing. And
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: I think that's you know, the conversation around the Biden
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: experience about him and what his capacity is. And basically
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: they're saying every we're just falling short of the fact, well,
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: he's going to die soon, so it can't be president.
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: No one's going to say that, right because mortality is
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: to go. You can't say that. But that's what the
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: subtext is, and we're all dealing with it in real time,
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: and the consequences are just you know, go Gainshawan. It's
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: such an interesting and really freaky scary.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: And I mean, I'm fascinated from you know, because I'm
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: fascinated with the brain and the mind, and I'm fascinated
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: obviously with the body.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: And we talk about this thing.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: There's a newish term, not that new, but last five
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: years it's gained some legs called health span.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: Francis, have you heard of that?
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: I also get what you're saying, which is it's rather lifespan.
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: It's the quality of your life while you're alive, because
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: you can live and will you both have seen this too.
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: You can live a long life. But it doesn't mean
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: you're living in a cognizant life, or an active life,
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: or an enriched life, or an inner life where you're
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: experiencing the world. You're just a set of lungs and
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: a heart. And you know, it's a fair question to
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: discuss around what is the value of that, Where is
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: the agency and that what is the sort of ethics
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: of maintaining people that way? I guess the voluntary system
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: dying legislation which is available in the different parts of
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: the world at the moment, and in saying Victoria, in
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: Australia it's available, and I'm sure it's available elsewhere as well,
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: around the country and internationally. You know, it challenges those
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: old precepts of the established church and other religious and
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: monochy philosophies around the sanctity of life, you know, you know,
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: being an absolute when we are now asking well, is
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: life lived that way really a life with dignity? And
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: if it's not a life with dignity. What is it?
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: And it's a big.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: Question now ask Yeah, there are so many things that
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: come up for me. And you know, my mum and
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: dad are eighty five and your dad.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: Is in his eight ays is he? Yeah?
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: And I mean, you know, there's there's so many things
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: that kind of intersect, you know, the psychology and the
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: brain stuff and the general wellness and the immune system
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: and the ability to be able to get in and
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: out of a chair and and and all of the
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: practical things. You know, I've been talking to my mum
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: this afternoon and God bless us, she's fine. There's no
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: neither she or Dad have dementia per se. But you
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: know that there's some cognitive decline which is pretty much
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: inevitable with everyone from fifty, depending on a few things.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: But we know that we can stave that off with
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: you know, training our brain for want of a better term,
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: But there's always going to be a level of just
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: like physiological decline, cognitive decline, psychological decline perhaps.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: But you know, my mum is I've been talking to
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: her this afternoon.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: She's got these bills that have come in and you
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: know it's now at the point where she can't go
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: and you know, pay bills with a check anymore, you know,
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: cash is pretty much irrelevant and redundant.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: And she was talking to me about and that these
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: are not you.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: Know, they're just power and insurance and red Joe and
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: all of these things. And she's so stressed about it.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: And I, in the end, I wasn't going to see
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: them this weekend because got stuff to do. And in
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: the end, and we're recording this Friday, two thirty and
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: I just rang Mom and I said, I'm going to
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: come down tomorrow. I'll be there at midday and we're
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: geting to go through everything. We're going to figure out
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: how to how to make everything electronically linked to me
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: and Melissa will fix it all for you, Melissa who
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: runs my life, of course. And so just to take
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: that responsibility of paying bills off her out of her
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: hands so she doesn't she's so stressed about everything. She's
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: got a new phone and they keep sending her notification.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: She doesn't know what to do. I'm like, Mum, you
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: don't have to do anything. Oh, but why are they
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: sending them? I'm like, oh my god, you know, And
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: and I look at Joe Biden and I think, you know,
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: one of the things that really creates cognitive problems is
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: or sleep. Well, he can't be sleeping that well, right
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: and pressure, stress, and anxiety are all cognitive inhibitors. Right now,
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: imagine the pressure that he is under apart from the
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: fact that he's eighty one or two, and you know,
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: God bless him, but clearly on the slide, like that's
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: not arguable anymore, but you chuck on top of that again,
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: arguably the most powerful position in the world with the
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: most pressure. I mean, I don't know how he even
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: gets out of bed at the moment.
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And of course there's sort of the Greek tragedy
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: element of this is, you know, we're getting too deep
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: in the political weeds. Here is his inability to recognize
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: that and step away from the campaign and allow someone
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: younger to do it. It's almost Shakespearean and it's tragedy.
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: Someone who's commuted, has done so much work in public service,
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: his entire life, has suffered so much personal tragedy from
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: the death of his wife and his daughter and the
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: death of his elderson from cancer and just kept going
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: and just you know, I think most people across the
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: past and divide in the United States. Despite all the
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: rectoric that you hear, most sensible people acknowledge he's been
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: an incredible public sermon who has done great things. But
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: he's at this very moment, because of his inability to
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: come to terms with his own mortality and his own decline,
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: is in danger of undoing his legacy, which is just tragic.
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: It is the sort of stuff of a Greek tragedy.
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: So it's happening in front of our eyes, but it
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: does remind us about our own challenge to come to
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: terms with our You could call it decline, but I
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: would like to say the changes that we face that
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: we can't avoid, the changes that are that are inevitable
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: in lots of ways, that might be seen as decline,
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: but it's just it's confronting, Craig, and you and I
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: both had sort of dealing with parents who are diminished
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: physically and mentally, and it's you know, part of you
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: wonder as well, both of you. Both you and I
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: and a lot of people who listen to this podcast
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: spend a lot of time thinking and working hard at
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: being our best version of ourselves now. But you can't
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: bank it. It's not like you go, well, I did
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: it for ten years, kind of a year off. We
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: can I have four years at the end of perfect
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: cognition because you know, like long service leave, I've done
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: twenty years of eating well and exercise, So there's a
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: getting an extra five years of being at the top
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: of my game. And it doesn't work like that, does it?
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: Or does it great? I mean, give me, give me
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: some hope that it's been that we're investing in. I mean,
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: it's a geriatric future that is a little sharper than
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: what we're experiencing with our own well.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's an inevitability of decline. Of course, nobody
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: lives forever. Nobody has optimal cognitive function forever, nobody can
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: bench press their house forever.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: We get all of that, and.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: So there's what we know is there's an inevitability of
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: chronological aging day after day, of course. But what's not
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: what's what isn't a constant is the way that we age.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: So there's the variability of and I mean, of course
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: we're all going to die at some stage, and of
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: course we're all going to end up in a diseased
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: or a dysfunctional state eventually. And that's where that term
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: health span comes in is you know, so what we
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: want to do is we want to be you know,
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: really we want to be atypical in that we want
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: to be as strong and functional and healthy and cognitively
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: kind of good as we can for as long as
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: we can. And so we know that, you know, sleep
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: and exercise and quality and nutrition and minimal stress and
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: being challenged and working against resistance in an intelligent way,
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: and all of those things can help us stay somewhere
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: near optimal for our potential. But it's you know, there's
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: still that which you and I spoke about briefly this morning,
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: is that's all good? And I think you and I
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: for our ages are probably going okay, maybe slightly better
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: than average hopefully, but there's going to come a time
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: where we're not. And you go, well, so what do
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: I do between now and then? And I think between
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: now and then, that's the health span bit, is you know,
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: it's like you were alluding to, living ninety years is good,
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: but not if the last fifteen years are fucking horrible,
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: you know what to do about that?
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: And with that is the conundrum.
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: The other part of it is also just the fragility
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: of living well it is, you know, being able to
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: sort of have those moments of realizing the realization occasion
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: where you go, look, I'm feeling good physically. No, my
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: joints don't feel sore. I don't have a muscle injury.
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: I'm walking okay, my back's not sore. I'm not finding
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: it difficult to sit down or stand up or walk.
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: When we're younger, we take that for granted, but I
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: don't know what you're like. But I now have those
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: moments of the city were go, wow, this is I'm
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: really aware of that at the moment, because it's not
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: always going to be the way. And when you do
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: get sticked and you are incapacitated, and whether it's you know,
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: I guess many of us experienced in the last five
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: or six years with the COVID nineteen and you know,
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: it can really stricken you really quickly. And he went
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: from feeling I remember the first time I caught her,
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: I was just being finished on a long run and
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: it was feeling really good and came home. I drove
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: home from the River trail, I was exercising, and by
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: the time I got home, I'm going to know that
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: the end or from rush after just having a good
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: hour and a half role feeling great right, and by
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: the time there's just that instinct something ain't right. And
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: by the time I got upstairs, I was a million
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: miles away from from feeling it good. And so you
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: get are you're really sick really quickly, and you lose
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: that zest and yeah, and it's really quite frightening. It's
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: like a window on a world that, as you said,
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: is inevitable for all of us. And I wanted you know,
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: it's all that sort of philosophy around the ability to
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: cope with sickness or to endure, or to you know,
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: to be able to sort of learn more of yourself
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: about yourself and how you deal with illness and relate
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: to your body. Fascinated all that stuff around that because
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: there is that attitude towards sickness. I guess it's saying
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: with cancer. When someone has cancer, we lionize the idea
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: that you're fighting, right, so you're going to have you're
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: a batler, you're fighting. You've got cancer. And cancers obviously
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: are multi multi hued, you know, tapestry of misery, no
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: doubt about that. But there are some cancers that you
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: can't fight, right, But you get diagnosed with and you
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: know your life is going to be cut short. But
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: you know because of the pressure that there's a virtue
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: in fighting illness. You people go through really difficult treatments
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: and chemotherapy and other treatments that make them sick in
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: the process, and they might eke out a short a
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: bit longer life span, but not quality of life. But
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: if you were to say, actually, I know I'm going
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: to die, there's no way I can be cured. I
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: would rather just live my life and go through the
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: palative process when it happens, but I'm not going to
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: undertake treatment. I think our culture would judge you as
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: somebody who wasn't a fighter, that you weren't prepared to
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: fight the disease that you know, by being a fighter
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: using the frame using the word fight or battling cancer,
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: you know, it does suggest that if you don't, then
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: you're a coward. I mean, that's the other side of
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: being a fighter's count, right. So I think it's really
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: fascinating people come that do come to terms with their
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: illness and go okay, philosophically, I know this is going
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: to be horrible, but I've come to a point where
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: I'm at peace or I found a certain state of
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: grace in dealing with the fact that I would rather
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: die with this way than put myself through a treatment
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: to prove a point, or to eke out another month
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: or two and be sick the entire time. You know,
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: it's a really interesting way. Do we have to come
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: to terms with our own mortality?
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that you're talking about voluntary assisted
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: dying before. So We've had a friend of mine who
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: I actually went to UNI with, who did exercise science,
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: then went and did nursing and then a bunch of
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: other stuff after that.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: Her name's Nicki Morrison. Shout out to Nikki. She's a
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: straight up angel.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: She works with people, so she's a death duel of Francis.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: So when people want to take that path of assist dying,
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: she facilitates that with them in the home. And it's
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: like I think for some people who when like you said,
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: there is medically no chance of you know, that they
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: are going to recover, just to be able to say,
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: all right.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: Well I'm going to die, I'd rather die on my terms.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: I'd rather die.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: I don't want to die in agony I don't want
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: to die in being humiliated and have someone wipe my ass.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: And I don't want that. I don't want that. I
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: don't want to be you know. And not that everyone
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: would be embarrassed, or neither should they be necessarily, but
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: for some people, you know, I think to be able
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: to make that decision about you know, for some people
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: in certain specific medical circumstances, I understand that, and.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: I I, yeah, I don't I don't know that I
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: would say no to that.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: You know, in my own my only thing would be
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: my very religious upbringing, which.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: Tells me you can't do that. But you know, that
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: whole eternal lake of fire thing, Francis, that's somewhat of
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: a deterrent.
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: It is, it is you know, yeah, that's hard white
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: into a lot of people cray. And it's the reason
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: why you know, we still have this discussion around it,
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: around a system dying and the dignity of sacred, sacred
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: nature of life. I still I still wristle with the
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: tea because as a philosophical position around that, if we
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: make those sorts of decisions culturally relative, so you know,
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: we can start if it's not an absolute or empirical
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: idea that all life is stacred or you know, the
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: sanct thing of life is universal. Then we can start
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: to peel off different areas and in different times, in
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: under different cultural circumstances, political circumstances, we make allowances that
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: we would not have even considered in the past. And
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: so I understand that the cultural relativity argument around well
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: when do we start choosing or how do we make
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: a value judgment about what is dignified living or what
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: is a life worth living? And that becomes a subjective conversation,
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: and you know, you know, if people are the chronically
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: depressed and they don't feel like living anymore, does that
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: then become an issue around the quality of life and
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: should they then allow it to be have access to
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: assistant eye? And that's when you get to these culturally
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: relative positions about the value of human life and who's
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: making those rules, who's making that judgment? It's it isn't
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: you know? I know that we're living a world of
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: binary opinions where you're either for or aget it. I
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: think it's a really difficult situation, a difficult issue that
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: does impose a lot of serious ethical and moral questions
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: that aren't easily answered. I mean, there are cases and
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: as you said, where people are so physically stricten or
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: that is there can be no argument about it. But
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: at the same time, when you start to add that
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: element of about dignity and quality of life, that means
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: different things different.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: People, And don't you think it's interesting that we do
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: live in this very kind of you've got to have
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: a yes or no, Like how about fuck? I don't know, Like,
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: I don't like it's okay, you know, it's like, why
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: do I have to be in one or the other camp?
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: Here's an idea. I'm human and I'm unsure.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: I don't want to Like, there's also that option I
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: feel it's it's ridiculous that people feel compelled to pressure
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: or leave people in Well, here are your two options.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: Which of these is? How about listen, Brian? How about
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: neither I need more information or more time or I
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: just you know, I just don't know. As somebody who
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: is in his fifties and you've got a dad who's
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: not super well at the moment, how are you going
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: with that?
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: Like?
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Has this been I don't know, has this been a shock?
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: Has this been has it effected perspective?
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: In any way.
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: That's interesting. My dad's been sick for a very long time,
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: you know. He retired at the age of forty after
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: a workplace accident and has been with basically both my
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: parents have basically been dealing with a healthcare system for
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: a better part of thirty forty years. And to that end,
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: I'm so glad that they live in Australia, where their
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: access is working past people to high quality healthcare is
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: second to none, and that they're looked after with dignity
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: and with great care and with an expertise out on
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: the par with anywhere else in the where we really
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: are truly fully blessed. So that aside that illness or
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: battling the illness and sickness has always been part of
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: my life, or dealing with my parents' illness, that's just
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: what we've always done. But as he gets closer to
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: the end, I spend a lot more time with you
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: because I and this is one of the things I
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: would encourage people to do if they're dealing with the
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: situation that you and I are, and that you and
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: I think are both chosing this part. It's easy to
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: sort of, I think, not easy to write words it's
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: tempting to sort of try to pass your way through
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: it and go, look, i'll do a little bit here,
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: I'll do a little bit there, and I hope someone
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: else can get up there, or you know, I'll try
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: to cut corners around looking at my parents or hope
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: one of my siblings picks it up, you know, because
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: it's confronting, right, It's time consuming, and you spend a
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: lot of time sitting around hospital wars or waiting for
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: appointments and around other sick people, and traveling to and
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: from appointments in cars, and you know, it's a grind.
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: It's a grind, right, It's hard work. But I'm glad
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: that at a certain point when I was trying to
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: do it in a way that was, you know, collaborative
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: with other people, I just thought, this is too hard,
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: and I'm going to regret not just buying him totally.
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: It is. So my siblings are great and we all
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: work together on it, but I just look, as much
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: as I can, I will take him to his medical appointments.
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: It just sud of when not making a call Are
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: you free? Are you free? You know? Because that gets
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: exhausting of itself. If I can't, and there be times
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: I can't because I have a job that takes me
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: all over the place. We'll know in in vance and
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: we'll work it out. But if i'm if i'm here,
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: or if I can make time, I'll do it. And
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: that's just taken a lot of stress out. And it's
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: also meant that I spent a lot of time with him,
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: and you know, you get to know him a lot better.
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: You know, he's got the vascular he's got that beast
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: the dimension, which is a version of the disease which
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: affects his short term memory, but his long term memory
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: is quite vivid. And so he's been telling me stories
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: about his young life and his childhood and growing up
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: that he never shared with me before, which I've recalled.
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: I've recorded some of those just on my phone, just conversations,
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: so that I've got those to keep, and that's been
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: really important. It's given me another tour understanding of who
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: he is and the challenges he faced as he as
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: a kid, you know, growing up basically kicked out at
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: home at the age of twelve and living with friends
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: and just living on his wits most of his life.
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: But then there's another moments that just just good fun.
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: Like we sit together day we were waiting for his
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: doctor and dragged on and on and on. So I
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: just get out my phone now and go on Instagram
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: and find my favorite comedy clips and we just sit there,
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: you clicking through instag comedy stand up thirty forty second
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: bits of people say hey, Dad, look at this, just
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: pissing ourselves laughing, and it's just a lot of fun.
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: We we're idiots in the in the hospital waiting room.
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: I don't know because there's noise and everything going. I said,
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: I just put it on and I have a look
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: at his day, and he's having a great old bally laughing.
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: I think, well, this is fun, I mean of a
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: shit situation by laughing at a bit of day that
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: on comedy or some old you know, really.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: Speaking of Catholics.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: I you know, it's funny, like yesterday or this week's
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: been really busy for me, you know, just lots of
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: work and lots of stuff, and today fair bit on.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: And I got on the phone with mom before as
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: I was telling you, and like she's a bit stressed
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: about some stuff. And then the more we talked, like
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: it was clear that she was really stressed. And then
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: it's funny how when you know, like with me, there's
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: no wife, there's no grandkids to support, there's no of course,
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: and I'm fine with all that. There's no siblings, and
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: so it's all pretty much me, which is fine. But
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: then you get to the point where you're like, oh,
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: so this conversation I'm in right now with my mum,
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: this is more important than all the other things I've
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: got to do today, Like this is what needs to
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: have my energy and my attention and my focus. And then,
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: as I was saying before, Mama is so worried about bills,
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: not that they don't have the dough to pay them,
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: but she doesn't have the skills, right, And I just said,
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: you know, all right, I'll come up tomorrow.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: We'll just come up tomorrow and we'll sort it all out.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: And it's funny how when things are going for me,
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: when things are going shit with my mum and dad,
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: it's like all the other problems aren't problems absolutely, you know,
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: It's like it just gives me a level of clarity
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: and perspective about what actually matters. Because for me anyway,
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: because I don't have a wife and kids, so I
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: guess they're the most important people in the world to me.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: And and I don't know if people feel this, but
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: I feel like it's almost like now I'm the dad, yes,
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: and I feel like I am responsible and if I'm
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: not responsible, no one will be. And it's just I'm
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: not at the point where I'm making decisions for them,
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: but I'm thinking, Okay, I think we need to talk
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: about this thing now, and they will never bring it up.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: It's like they live in this big old house in
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Latrobe Valley on a big old black land with fucking
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: way too much stuff and way too much space. I'm like,
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: you two dither around about the twenty square feet and
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: the rest of the mansion is fucking gathering us, right,
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: But it's.
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: Oh no, no, no, no, I'm like, but it's so
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: hard because you know what that is as well, and
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: I'm you know, doing this at the moment with my
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: dad going into care is it's a.
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: Massive change for them, and that's a that's a signifier
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: of their own, you know, their own journey that they're
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: getting to a point where you know, they're in the
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: twilight of the years. So it's pretty confronting. But I
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: know what you mean. It's also you're just not in
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: a position to maintain this place anymore, Like you know,
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: it's just too big and it's but demands too much
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: of you. So yeah, that's really hard. I do have
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: power of attorney with dad, so I do have to
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: make some of those decisions. But I'm pretty clear headed
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: about that. And the other thing I would say to
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: people who are when your time comes to deal with
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: this is get on top of that really quickly. Talk
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: to your parents, talking siblings. You know, my siblings and
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: I have a really solid and great relationship when it
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: comes to dealing with these issues. And I'm really really lucky,
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: really really lucky to have four siblings that we all
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: get it and we all support each other and despite
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: all the different things are going on our own lives.
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: Because not everybody has that right. And if you do
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: have issues with siblings that I've seen, it hurd a
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: lot or other people in your family who don't understand,
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: you know, what's going on, or they've got their own
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: hurt and their own feelings that they haven't really dealt with,
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: and it starts to manifest itself around the situation with
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: the parents. Oh, it could be help, it could be
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: hell so. And that's where those flash points become really important,
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: where you haven't established who has power of attorney in
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: a situation like that, and you're trying to have a
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: collegiate conversation with your brothers and sisters or an uncle
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: or an auntie, and nobody has the ultimate deciding power
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: to decide because you haven't done your power of attorney,
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: and it just gets messy. So I implore you, if
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: you're going to go and involved in a caring role
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: for an aging parent who's at some stage is going
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: to need someone to make decisions for them, have that
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: conversation now. Get it out of the way, because there'll
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: come a time when you're going to need it. And
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: that's one of the things I've learned is I guess
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: the theme of this is that we're embracing the aging
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: and I guess mortality in a way. We're going to run.
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: We're going to run towards it when we see it
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: when we need to help people, because there's no getting
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: away from it and the only way through is through,
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: and to do it well, to do it well for
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: both the person who you might be caring for nursing
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: and for yourself. You have to embrace it. You have
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: to embrace it and take it on as painful and
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: as confronting as it is.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: As somebody who never has to kind of navigate or
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: negotiate the sibling thing, right, and who's going to do this?
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: And that's not something I have to contend with or
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: have the pleasure or the whatever. I don't know what
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: the right term is, but I've had, as you kind
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: of alluded to, lots of conversations with friends who've gone
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: that with parents and the money grabbing SI who is
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: like all about the dough.
• 29:11
  Speaker 5: I'm like, what, oh, yeah, it's all about I'm like,
• 29:15
  Speaker 5: oh my god, like that that just it just repulses
• 29:21
  Speaker 5: me so much.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: But I get that it happens. But the idea that
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: you know, dad's on his.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: Way out or mum's on her way out or whatever,
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: and the kids are fighting over the money rather than
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: loving the mum and dad, and just like it never
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, well, I never really thought about it till
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: I started hearing about it, and I hear about it
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: quite a lot.
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: It is one of the great revealers of human character
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: is dealing with mortality. These people who find that their
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: brother and sister. And you know, I've heard this twice
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: in the last three or four years from people that
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: I know who found out that their older brother or
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: sister has been nursing a greed for many years and
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: expects it. You know, I've always done a certain thing
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: in relation to the parents' situation and the estate that
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: they never dreamed possible because they feel entitled to a
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: certain situation being settled in their favor. It's it reveals
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: character about greed and you know, the desperation to want things.
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: But also I guess in some ways, you know, people
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: carry a lot of hurt around and it manifests in
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: this way. When a parent dies. It's it is quite
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: it's quite horrifying. And that's why it's good to try
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: to have these conversations early and make sure that everyone
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: understands where they're at. And sometimes it's good not to
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: have a lot to worry about. By my parents, there's
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: no fighting over much.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm not getting rich off Mary at any stage,
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: So God God blessed that little But you know, about well,
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: I did hear recently of somebody that I know quite
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: well well, and there's a member in their family, one
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: of the children, who is who was basically on dad's
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: deathbed trying to get him to change the will.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: Like what kind of fucking human does that?
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: Oh wow, you know.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: Like pleading his case.
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: But you know this also it comes back to what
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: we were talking about earlier too, which is about the
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: efficacy and that the integrity of the right to assist
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: to dying, because one of the other issues that is
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: very permanent in this is elder elderly abuse and financial
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: abuse older people. So if someone gets if someone is
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: sick or incapacitated and their person who has the power
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: of attorney decides, maybe against the wishes of the people
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: they have at their power at because they have a
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: financial need or they've got an impulse to acquire something quickly,
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: that they go down. If we were to say, well,
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: that person, they wouldn't have the right to go down.
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: It's just the dying route at some point. If things
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: change at the moment, it's a lot more stringent around that,
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: and the person who would be subject to it's just
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: the dying has to go through some very rigorous processes
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: before they are put on that program. But you know,
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: once again, everything's relative, and cultural relativity might mean at
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: some point he's just going, well, this person's in a
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: bed and you know, it's not not really engaged in
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: the world, and you're the you're the power of attorney.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: You have the right to turn off the machine, you know,
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: and that that that happens all the time. That's sort
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: of not the spousal abuse or financial abuse of older
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: people exploring older people because of their financial circumstances. You know,
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: that's a real issue. It just it's sometimes events like
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: this can bring out the very best in us in
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: the way we handle these situations, but it can also
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: bring out the very worst.
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: At the moment.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: I my thinking around my mom and dad is I
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: want to, within reason, I want to see them as
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: much as I can, and because there's going to be
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: a time where I'm going to wish they are around
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: to annoy.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: Me, you know what I mean, You'll hear the voices
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: in your head.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah that'll be there forever. But yeah, I just think,
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: you know, I know it sounds cliche, but just to
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: just to be able to spend time with them while
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: they're still here and you know, all that kind of stuff.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: So I guess I'm a little bit philosophical around that.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: But it also you know, there's a real practical component
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: to how do I help them manage whatever it is
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: the last one two, five ten years of their existence,
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: because you know, there's apart from all the medical stuff
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: and all the psychological and emotional and sociological stuff, there's
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: still there's all the practical things that need to be navigated,
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: which is it gets quite messy, you.
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: Know it does. But as we said, there's no other
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: way through them through it, so onwards we go to
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: it we do.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: Indeed, now are you heading off? You're heading off to
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: see your dad after this?
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: Am I life to the old fella, listen to his
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: bad dad jokes, which you know concert those still.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: So you're going to one day you're going to miss them, mate,
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: So you just celebrate them while they're still coming out,
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: while they're still coming out.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: You too, mate, I appreciate you. I hope things all
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: right with you.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: Will say goodbye affair, but for the moment, Francis, Michael,
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: Kevin Patrick, John O.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Dante's Shakira, thanks for having a