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Healing with Humor: Finding Hope Through Mental Illness and Stand-Up Comedy · the ACT OUT podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_05: Welcome to the Act Out Podcast.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_05: I'm your host, Adam Tomlin.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_05: Today's guest is comedian and mental health advocate Dave Mowery.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_05: Let's roll the tape.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_05: Hey, Dave.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_05: How's it going?
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_05: It's going great.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_05: How are you, Adam?
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_05: Uh man, I'm I'm doing well.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_05: Uh I'm actually excited to be here.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_05: Uh you and I were uh talking a little bit before we uh you know, before we got on.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_05: And uh I remember actually you uh uh watching some stand-up uh comedy clips of yours.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_05: Um uh yeah, yeah, on on YouTube.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_05: So whenever you were uh you know you had mentioned uh that you had uh had like I think very recently uh written a book that we'll uh talk about.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_05: But as you were saying that, I was like, oh my god, I've seen uh I've seen him.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_05: And I as soon as you said that, I was like, oh yes, I I I remember now while I was so excited.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, my YouTube, uh my YouTube claim to fame, huh?
• 0:56
  unknown: Yeah.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_05: Uh well, so I kind of uh you know, like spooled the lead a little bit, but uh you just came out with uh what I think uh your second book you said?
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Second book called Healing with Humor.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it tells the story about six people whose lives have been transformed uh by taking my stand-up comedy class.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: I live with bipolar disorder, severe anxiety, and have all my adult life.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh had my breakdown, my hospitalizations, my I had 14 lost years.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: I call them my dark days, where I just couldn't do anything.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't work, I couldn't get off the couch, I couldn't uh overwhelming anxiety, sense of dread, the depression was awful.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um I couldn't go to the mailbox in the daytime in case I saw a neighbor.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I had to go, I had to go at night.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um I didn't shower for um weeks and weeks and weeks because it was just too much.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'd sleep in my clothes because it was too much to take them off and put them back on.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so yeah, those are the dark days.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: But then I found a stand-up comedy class for folks with mental illness and it changed my life.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_05: If there is uh I'm kind of curious what you think it is, but the the funniest people, uh, you know, people who uh you know like do stand up as a as a career and are you know like people who we watch on screen and you know think like, oh man, these people are hilarious.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_05: Uh invariably they will have struggled with some type of mental illness.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_05: What do you think the correlation is between mental illness and um comedic insight?
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think it it um the more challenges you have, the more material you have for comedy.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the worse something is, with with a few exceptions.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, um bad experience, the worse something is, the more opportunity there is to find the funny in it at a certain point, after you get some distance from it.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think, yeah, I see the comics and I see I see the edge, I see the mental um the mental edge.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's also once you get into that place of of having those challenges and you get in touch with those feelings and you start looking at it in a different light, um, it gives you the energy to get out there and just let it rip.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, Robin Williams was uh one, he was amazing.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, he had he had he had his challenges.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but he he he was able to, when he was on stage, turn it on.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: And uh he was he was he was incredible.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_05: Um Robin Williams uh Chris Farley.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_05: Uh that was Chris Farley was a uh a big influence on uh on my comedy uh as a uh as a kid.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_05: So uh definitely had a lot of physical humor.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_05: Um yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_05: But he certainly, I I know that he he had his uh troubles.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_05: And I I mean God, uh most stand-up comics uh today, I would say a part of their set is going to be something about like depression or you know, having uh, you know, some type of like uh, you know, like a maybe like uh suicidal ideations or self-harm or something.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_05: That it it's team it tends to be, you know, like a a thing.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_05: And as you were talking about that, it's kind of it kind of you know gave a little bit of a punchline, but you know, the more you go through, the more you know, material you have.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_05: I but I think that uh being able to look at something so tragic and so kind of uh like I that could be depressing and like ending, but be able to flip that and kind of subvert it.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_05: Uh it gives uh it gives you a sense of power and sense of control over that kind of over that thing.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly exactly right, 100%.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's what happens.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it reframes it before comedy.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'd be driving down the road and I'd hear a song and it would trigger a thought about uh I mean I've I got lots of material.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: Lots of material, but it it would trigger a thought of an experience, uh a panic attack, uh depression, uh a huge loss in my life.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I'd go back and I'd relive that experience.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'd I'd go back and it was you know, PTSD.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'd just go back to that spot.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then um after after doing the stand-up comedy class, uh when I'd hear that song and I'd I'd get that thought and start to go back to that dark place, I'd I'd say, okay, where can I find the funny in that?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: Changed everything.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of going to that dark place and reliving that bad experience, I saw it completely differently.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I look for the humor in it.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And pretty soon I'm in the car and I'm working on punchlines, or pretty soon I'm working on setups.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um and for me, setups come sometimes first, sometimes punchlines come first, sometimes, you know, and sometimes things just pop into my head.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a uh you were talking about suicide.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: One of my best jokes is uh suicide joke.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know, are you ready for you ready to start out with a suicide joke?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, Mel, let's go for it.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's a general suicide joke.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: So uh and and for me, I mean, seriously, when when things were I mean, I had my time where I was uh I was sitting on a park bench with a gun and uh I didn't do it.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: But um I had my experience with suicide litigation and the almost.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: But uh one one time when things were really, really bad, I decided to end it all.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I went up into the bathroom and I took a bunch of pills.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Afterwards I called my wife for help.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: She said there are more pills under the sink.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, now now that you've like now that we know that you've gone through it and that you know you're you're you're past it, it is it's one of those things that you hate to laugh at, but you know, like I'll tell you what, uh it's one of the maybe the most favorite joke that I tell when I'm telling jokes in front of a crowd of people who have lived experience with mental illness or family members because um, you know, I don't know the percentage, but a high percentage of suicide ideation, and just to have it out there and to have it spoken and to have something to laugh about.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's you know, maybe just a half a beat pause where can I laugh at that?
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then they bust out, and it's yeah, it's great.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it you know, it it it it gets it out there, it helps shatter the stigma, people see it in a different light.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: And next time somebody's thinking about suicide, suicide ideation, maybe they think of the joke.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_05: So what is the uh reaction to that joke whenever you tell it out?
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_05: Is it uh you know, kind of like accepted, laughed at?
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, or oh yeah, it's laughed at, accepted.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um people come up afterwards and comment on it.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um I've never had anybody say anything negative about it.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, yeah, um actually I did.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: I had one person come up and say, uh, you know, maybe you shouldn't joke about suicide because it might trigger somebody.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: And and uh the person that said it was uh somebody in the helping profession, she was a counselor.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, it doesn't those of us with mental illness, we don't get triggered by a joke about suicide.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're not we're not fragile, we're not weak, you know, we're we're, you know.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so um unfortunately, sometimes uh the people that were trying to help us um try too hard and try to protect us and don't respect our strength and our power.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_05: I I can uh I can imagine that it's it's definitely a fine line.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_05: You know, you don't want to uh you know like trigger someone and put someone in a state where they were going to uh you know be more likely to harm themselves.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_05: But when you're at when you're at a comedy show, you're expecting to laugh and you are expecting that there are going to be things that are said that uh probably is not true.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_05: You know, we we should not take this as suggestions, we should take this as entertainment.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly right.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's like there's a contract between the audience and the comic, you know.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um they come, they know uh, you know, all my jokes are almost all 90% of my jokes are based the setup.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's based in truth.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where the power comes from, is it's based in truth, like a suicide joke and so many other jokes.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but then the punchline is where it gets creative and fun.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, at the wrong place, at the I don't tell that joke, you know, there's a time and a place.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: There's a time and a place.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: And and um you gotta know when that time and a place is, but at a comedy show, yeah.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: And like on a show with you and and uh talking about it in the sense in the stand-up comedy sense, you know, that's a time.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, I don't make light of it, I don't make fun of it, I don't make fun of anybody, I don't, you know, it's just a it's just a laugh out loud, funny joke.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_05: How did you find the uh the the comedy class, like originally, but you know, before before this all began?
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: My um my wife actually found it.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it was through NAMI.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you've heard NAMI, it's National Alliance on Mental National Alliance on Mental Illness.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: They've got uh their largest grassroots mental health organization, and they've got chapters all over the country, and they brought in a comic to teach uh a stand-up comedy class to to folks with mental illness.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so um my wife signed me up and I went, and um I was not in good shape, and I went and I sat.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: I remember we went around the room and and uh the comedy said, you know, tell me a little bit about yourself and it wasn't when it was my turn.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: I went through my uh my story, and uh he looked at me and he said, You know, that's just sad.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, okay, that's a great way to start.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: I over I overshared, you know.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't know, I had uh I started finding the funny in my stuff, I found the funny in other people's stuff, wrote jokes for myself, helped other people write jokes, um, you know, I had a talent for it, which who knows where that came from.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it came comes from the bipolar disorder or the mental illness somewhere.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um because I do think people with mental illness, um it can open up a creative, creative path, you know, so we can see things in a little bit of a different, different light.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, we don't take things necessarily literally.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: We can hear something and find the dark humor in it and find something, see something and find humor in it.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: And uh when my wife found the class, I took the class, changed my life.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Changed my life.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_05: Was there a particular moment whenever kind of it it clicked and you you were like, you know, like it was kind of like a overnight change, so to speak, or was it more gradual where like you just had to show up to the class, you know, like every week or you know, however often y'all met for a while and then like kind of you slowly got into it?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was pretty immediate.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, it it was the second second class because the first class we, you know, it was kind of an info class and whatnot, but this the second class we started looking for the humor of the comedy and s and stuff, and I started finding humor in my experiences.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then as a group, I started spotting places for humor in other people.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: So it was pretty sudden in that regard.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then from that point on, my mind just slipped.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: And um like I said, I got a lot of material.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: I I had I had my life was so bad.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't get out of bed.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: I if I got out of bed, I could barely make it to the couch.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: And if I got to the couch, it was everything I could do just to sit, just all together, just to be, just to exist.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: Overwhelming sense of dread.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you think that came from?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's it's uh chemical imbalance in the brain.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um I was I had successful businesses and uh things were great.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: We had a great life, and I was under a lot of stress one day, and I was driving down the road, and um my mind was racing, and my my mind just snapped.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um it was like an electric shock.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: I got I could feel it in my my brain.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: I could feel it in my head, and it was like a little twig snapped.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: I could I can like hear it, and uh muscles in my face went slack, my voice went monotone, my vision went blurry, and I just sank into this abyss of deep, deep, deep depression.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'd always had ups and downs of depression and the bipolar, the mania.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: As I got older, they got the highs got higher and the lows got lower.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um but the anxiety was constant, it was always with me.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh panic attacks.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, yeah.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: So um it was always there.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was just predisposed to a chemical, you know, family hereditary, whatever it is.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I I mean, um I'm not here to promote anything, but you know, I take I take meds that help me so that the highs aren't so high and the lows aren't so low, and um the anxiety is uh, you know, I mean, I can talk to you.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's if you look back at me 20 years ago, it's um I couldn't get my hair cut without having a panic attack.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_04: Really?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: God forbid I'd have to, you know, the barber would say something to me, God forbid I'd have to respond, and I'd start to sweat, and I'd have a you'd wonder what the hell was going on, and I'd just, again, my face would go slack.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: I so yeah, I'd have, yeah.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_05: Before so, say you had a uh a haircut appointment, would you kind of like in your head just imagine all of the different conversations or the questions that the barber would ask you?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_05: Like what was there like kind of like fear leading up to it, or was it just like as soon as you hit the door, you're like, oh god.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: No, there's fear leading up to it, anxiety leading up to it.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I just pray that I could get through it without having a panic attack, without having a meltdown.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Such a simple thing, you know.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: You go in, you sit in a chair, they cut your hair, it's over in 15 minutes and whatnot.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: But um yeah, I just prayed that I could get through it.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: And if I didn't get through it without a meltdown, um, you know, it would it would take me two days, maybe three days to recover to get to get to get back to where I could just be calm.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_05: And so now, let's say you have a haircut appointment tomorrow.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_05: Are you going to kind of are will you have like a little bit of uh anxiety beforehand uh like you did before?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_05: Or is it is it maybe gone now?
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's it's it's gone now.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um and another joke, I'll warn you, another joke.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, the the bipolar was was bad, but it was can't came and went and the depression was really bad, but it came away.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: But the anxiety was constant, it was always there.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the ways it manifested itself uh truly was uh if I went into a restroom, a public restroom, there were other people in the restroom, I I I couldn't go.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: I I just couldn't go.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: I I'd try go to the urine, I'd go into the so I just couldn't go if anybody else was in there.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: The anxiety was just overwhelming for who knows what reason.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: It was just there.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd have to leave the room for maybe five minutes or maybe 20 minutes, whatever it was, until it was empty and I could go in and go.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then um uh a couple months ago, my wife and I were at a movie, and after the movie I went into the restroom and I um went in and there were other people in there, and I went up to the urinal and I went, and at that moment I realized how far I'd come.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I stepped back from the urinal and I went, yes, yes, yes.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: And the people in the restroom looked at me like I was crazy.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: I said, No, not anymore.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: So there you go.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's my ang that's my anxiety joke.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_05: Well, you uh as you were setting it up, you had said uh what wait until it was empty, and I was worried that you were talking about your bladder and not the restroom.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, God, it was awful.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I you know I'd have to go, and then I'd I couldn't, and I couldn't, and it was like I was gonna explode and I'd I'd have to wait and wait.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: That was that was so bad.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: It was so bad.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: So bad.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, they were yeah.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah one thing that is super interesting to me is how someone would start uh as a stand-up comic.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_05: I remember very specifically uh being at like this uh outdoor dog park that um had like a maybe like an open mic night for you know stand-up comedians and it was it was in Atlanta and I think maybe there were like five people that came up and it was a it was a tough crowd.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_05: No one laughed for anything.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_05: Um I kind of realized that no one was laughing and kind of realized that you know the comics were kind of having a tough time.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_05: So I would give like a lot of like sympathy laughs and uh be the only one like trying to put it on.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_05: But I can imagine that starting and trying to find the material and find yourself at the same time would be very, very challenging.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I have a lot of respect for comics.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, my my my path was a little bit different, maybe because I had so much material, maybe just because it it came a little easier to me.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: But um and I like my jokes, you know.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: The jokes I I like my jokes, so I I thought they were really funny.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: And um the audience laughed.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: They always laughed.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I I didn't run into that, but I did do an open mic, and open mics are terrible.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Usually in the audience are the comics that are gonna get up there for the open mic.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: And they're sitting there with their arms crossed, and they don't want you to be funny.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they don't want you to be funnier than them.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: So, um, you know, you're lucky to get a smile out of any of 'em.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're up there for an open mic to get laughs, to do that.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you gotta be if you if you do it more than once, you gotta be extremely extreme extremely brave or you know Love punishment because it's um but but comics that decide that that's what they want to do and then they put in the work and they do the open mics and then they do it.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, it's a tough road, but I have a lot of respect for him.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of respect for him.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_05: For the record, my arms are only crossed because I'm cold, not because I'm uh not because I'm closed off.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah, yeah.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: Good, good enough.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Good to know.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: No, you're not gonna slow me down, so we're good.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: We're good.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like I said, I I like my jokes, so uh, you know.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_05: How long uh into it until you kind of started teaching and kind of taking people under your wing?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: It was right after the first class I took because the other people in the class wanted to keep going.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd written a lot of their jokes for them or helped them write a lot of their jokes.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: So we just continued meeting and I led the group.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then um we scheduled a show, and so we wrote new material, and then we worked on delivery and timing and all those kinds of things.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so it was immediately after the first class I started um I started, you know, uh leading the class, and then I started officially teaching classes for folks with a mental illness.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um extremely rewarding.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: The the the changes in the people from day one from coming in.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Molly's an example.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: Molly came in, Molly was a doctor, and she had to give it up because of her mental illness, her bipolar disorder.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: She just couldn't do it.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: So everything she lived for was to be a doctor and practice in her small hometown.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: She was on her way, and then she just couldn't, and she had to give it up.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: So Molly came to class, she was a failed doctor.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: Her mom brought her, she said, Molly's suicidal.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: This is, you know, you know, this is she's at the end.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: And um, Molly came in and we started finding jokes for Molly, and she started writing jokes, she started looking for comedy, and uh now she is uh she sees herself as a comic.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: She's got an identity, she feels good about herself, she performs around town and at different events.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, it's very rewarding to to see what happens to people as they take the class.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_05: You know, as you were talking about Molly, it kind of uh struck me that bipolar has kind of been one of those words that's just seeped into the uh pop culture lexicon.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: I know, I know, yeah.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_05: So I, you know, I it's I I hear this a lot, like, oh yeah, man, so-and-so, if if you see somebody like really happy and then like really sad, later like, oh yeah, they're just bipolar.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_05: Can you tell us what bipolar actually is?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh first it's affects about 2% of the population.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: So when you're talking about people uh, you know, everybody's got their ups and downs, everybody has a great time, everybody gets depressed.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um I say there's this situational depression, uh, and then there's clinical depression, and everybody's gonna have situational depression.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: Something's gonna happen.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: There's gonna be a time, a job loss, there's gonna be a period where you get depressed.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: It can be uh lasts a long time or not too long.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: It can be deep, deep, deep, or not too deep, but you come out of it.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: But clinical depression is something that um it goes deep, deep, deep, lasts and stays and filled with a sense of dread and is incapacitating.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: And um so that's on the depression side.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, um people feel good and they get excited and they have a good time, and um they can feel great for you know days or weeks, or you get a new job, or you meet a new, you know, you meet your your future wife, or you know, you you uh anything can happen, and anything, and you can feel great.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um and yeah, the word bipolar is overused, but mania is uh it's a flight among the clouds, it's complete um loss of reality, at least it was for me.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: I was always the smartest person in the room.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: I could do no wrong, all my ideas, grandiosity, all my ideas were the best ideas.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know, um and it was I talked fast.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: I I I was I mean, I was crazy.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: I I uh uh one story I was I was I was manic and it was Christmas, and I came home on uh uh one night before Christmas and I sold one of my businesses and I had$10,000 in cash, hundred, hundred dollar bills.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so I uh we just put up the Christmas tree and I went out in the living room and I decorated the Christmas tree with hundred dollar bills.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought that was so clever and so cool.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so I had my wife and kids come out and look at it, and they, you know, I mean I was I was I was crazy, you know.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: I was crazy.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: I thought it was yeah, I th I thought it was great.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna have it up all through the year, you know.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, there's you know, but the mania goes and then it always goes too high, spending money, making bad decisions, sexual ideation.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I was pretty inept at my sexual ideation, uh, fortunately, but um uh constant thoughts of of sex, um which reminds me of another um when I was uh, you know, for for years and for years and years and years, I didn't know which me was gonna wake up in the morning, you know, the depressed me or the or the manic man.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I finally figured out how to tell the difference because when I was depressed, um I spent all day trying to get out of bed.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: And when I was manic, I spent all day trying to get my wife into bed.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_05: That's a like it's a good way of telling it apart, though.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's yeah, it's exactly how you can't get out of bed and then you know, spend all day trying to get my wife into bed.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: But that's so yeah, bipolar is overused.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_05: Um so how long from the like the top of the manic to the like to the to the fall down?
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_05: Like is it a period of like weeks, is it days?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they you know, like I said, as I get older, the depression lasted longer, the mania lasted longer.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, there was you know months and months on either side.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um but then once I once I hit the top of the mania and broke, there was, I mean, I just I fell.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't go right into depression, but I fell, and it probably took me three or four weeks just to modulate, you know, just to get back to just being regular.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then with mania, you got all these grandiose thoughts, and you you're doing all these things, and um there's a lot of with depression, the I my regrets are for the things that I couldn't do that I didn't do, and for the mania are the things, you know, the the guilt.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um my regrets are for the things that I did do, the spending money, the um, you know, I I started a uh business um that I thought was just the greatest idea in the whole world, you know, and we went broke and the family and I ended up homeless for 18 months.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, so yeah.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: But it's yeah, it it takes a while to to to slide down, um and then a long time to get balanced.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_05: Wha what was the point, if you don't mind my asking, where you're like, you know what, uh this this is it.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_05: I've I've I've got to get some help.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: I knew something was wrong for a long time.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um and even when I met my wife when I was in my late 20s, I was I told her I'm you know I'm on three-year cycles.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm my jobs, my I'd I'd I'd get a job, I'd do really well.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: I was um gut in depper management and in company.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um but it was three years, and I'd start to slide down into a depression.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the the the cycles were were um and then and then the mania the same way.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so it was it was it was like a three-year cycle, and then as I got older, they got more frequent and more frequent and more frequent.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then so I always knew something was wrong, and I knew at a certain point that I needed help, and I went to a support group, and uh then I started seeing a psychiatrist, and um it took years and years and years and years to get diagnosed, get the right diagnosis.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: You go to a psychiatrist, and when you're manic, you know, you're feeling good, and you go in and you're talking and you're feeling great, and you look just normal and happy and all that kind of stuff.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um so you know, you don't get diagnosed with it.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um the depression, you know, is is visible.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but but the but the mania rarely is.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it took years and years and years to get truly diagnosed.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I saw psychiatrists for years and years and years, and for um just my state of mind where my head was at, I I couldn't remember her office, what floor her office was on in the building.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: I went you know, I went every other week for years, and I couldn't I just my mind was it just wasn't there.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: I just couldn't and my kids went to school and I'd I'd forget to pick them up at school.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um happened a couple times.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: So you can imagine how that feels.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, now your your kids are here, it's four o'clock, where are you?
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm laying on the couch feeling uh, you know, just and that's what happens with depression is you know mania, your mind's gone a hundred miles an hour, and with depression it's so slow and so hard just to think, and so hard.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_04: That would have to be jarring to experience.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's bad.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's really and you know, if you talk to somebody who's really lived with with the uh with the illness, uh, yeah, it it's bad.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's bad.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's funny.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'll I'll go to Costco and I'll see somebody uh maybe in a wheelchair or somebody uh that's disabled and I'll think, boy, you know, I'm lucky, you know.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then um about 30 seconds later I'll start thinking, you know, well, my you know, mine's not visible, but you know, um, yeah, yeah, I've been, I've been, yeah.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I came out the other side.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: And part of, you know, writing the books, my first book, OMG, that's me, um, is telling my story about the experiences of living with the mental illness, the experience of having the anxiety of uh being deep in depression, um, um, and and panic having a panic attack.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's it's you know, there are little mini stories in each chapter.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's um been a bestseller on Amazon, uh in the mental health category.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's still in the top 10, has been for eight years, almost nine years.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: And um just got over a thousand reviews.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh most common comment is OMG, that's me, you're telling my story.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't feel so alone now.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because people, when you're there, you think you're the only one.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: You see people that are talking and having fun or getting their hair cut at the barber shop and talking and whatnot.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: And you think you're the only one.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and to to read about somebody else's experience, to know that you're not alone, that there are other people going through it and that you can come out the other side.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's uh yeah.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_05: I can imagine that it was probably therapeutic to write it in the first place, but then also for it to have like found some success and people are like, you know, like letting you know, like, hey, like I see myself here.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_05: Like, thank you so much for making me feel sane.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_05: I can see that being like validating on both ends for you.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was it was healing to it, it it helped to write about the experiences.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: It just helped to get it out.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then it helped to do it for a purpose because you know, I was doing it for a purpose.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: It helped me to to realize what I was going through during those times a little bit better, you know, and to kind of break down and see myself having a panic attack um and describing it.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: And um, but then to get the response, um, I blogged for bphope.com and posts have been read by over a million people.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: And again, the most common comment is, oh, I'm chew, it's me telling my story.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's it's it's um it's rewarding.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: I was on a podcast a few months ago, and nobody had ever asked me this question, but she asked me, you know, if you had to do it all over again, you know, how would you want things to be different?
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, gotta live a normal life.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to have not gone through all this.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: At the same time, having gone through it has given me uh an empathy, um a compassion, uh the ability to to let other people know they're not alone, um to help people with the stand-up comedy, um, and to help other people's lives change and improve and get better.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I wouldn't want to change that part.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_05: So it's it's but I'd I'd I really grieve my what what what would have been what might have been um absolutely I mean I think that would be a natural thing to do to kind of grieve a uh sort of like a grass is greener on the other side, like a like a normal life.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_05: Uh but at the same time, and I think it's kind of you know, I'm basically just reiterating what you said.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_05: It seems like that your life now has such meaning and such purpose that if you were to change any of the any of the bad things, that changes the meaning and the purpose now.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_05: So it may not it may not be the same.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_05: And so you're like, no, I I I need it to to be able to live this life of meaning.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_05: And this uh the this new book that you have, uh, where did the uh where did the idea come uh come from it?
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: It came from uh teaching the classes, uh the name of the book's Healing with Humor, Mental Illness to Mental Health, one laugh, one joke, one inspiring story at a time.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I tell the story about six comics, including myself, who took the class, found the found the funny and their darkness, their hard times, and the transformation that happened in their lives.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's a really good book.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um I feel really good about it.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's um yeah, I'm I'm I'm proud of it.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good book, and it tells a story about folks so you know, people who read it, they see themselves and they see their stories, and again, they can relate, they know they're not alone.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: And they see these people find the humor in their experiences, and they see them transform, and so it is inspiring.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it's funny, though in in there we you know include jokes uh from from the the uh from the comics, these other comics.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and the audiobook, which is going to be up hopefully uh maybe when this comes out, um we are able to cut in the live uh uh live performance.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: So the the comic telling their jokes live in the audiobook.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's really special.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: So um yeah, the audiobook is is is really good.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, that's it came from teaching the classes, seeing the transformation and and wanting to share uh, you know, that we can find humor in the darkness, um, the power of humor, what happens, the inspiring story of, you know, these brave people that took the class and then got up on stage uh and told their stories one joke at a time.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, yeah.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, their stories deserve to be told.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_05: All right, it sounds like it.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_05: And I really hope to uh really hope to like kind of be able to uh probably listen to it.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_05: Um I'm more of a uh audio, so I have to check that out whenever it comes out.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_05: But uh you earlier you were talking about how like whenever you're developing a joke, sometimes the setup comes first, and sometimes it's the punchline that comes first.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_05: Can you kind of like break down like or kind of give us an example of each, like what like what your thought process is?
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting now.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, um early on I'd I'd think um I'd sit down and I'd think uh yeah, okay, I'm gonna write some jokes.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: And when when the when the uh inspiration struck me, I'd sit down.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: I I could write 10 or 12 jokes at a time, you know, in half an hour I'd just they just flow.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, maybe one or two were keepers.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um but then at other times um I'll be driving down the street and see something, something will pop into my head.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh a silly joke, a dead joke popped into my head the other day.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um You're in Atlanta, right?
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_05: Um I'm from Atlanta.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: You're from Atlanta.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what the difference is between an Atlanta squirrel?
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm in Portland.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: An Atlanta squirrel and a Portland squirrel?
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_05: Uh no.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: The accent.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_05: So that's my son's three, so that's like top quality humor right now.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_05: Exactly.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_05: Exactly.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it's um I was driving down the road and I went drove by a um a a restaurant, restaurant bar, and they had a sign up front and said happy hour.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: That just triggered me and uh triggered me.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: It you know, got me going.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought, um, you know, I think that's being discriminatory.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: There should also be a crappy hour for depressed people.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: And bipolar people could go to both.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_05: That so that like okay.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I I I guess that's like a really good example of having kind of a like a double joke with just one setup.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to think of specific ones where the setup came first or where the punchline came first, but I um I'm not thinking of anything particular at this point.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, these are all As soon as we get finished talking, you will have like a hundred come to your mind.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the a setup, um I was thinking um, you know, people with mental illness, um, you know, when we're single and we're dating, we have um challenges, you know.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: So like, you know, when do you tell your your your date that you've got a you know you're mentally mentally ill?
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the first first date, you know, you don't want to do it, that's too soon, but if you wait till the third date, that's too long.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: So and then you know that.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: What do you do?
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, so um I decided there should be a dating service for people with mental illness.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I can see the postings now.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um paranoid white male seeks paranoid white female to share a compound in Idaho.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: Or a paranoid female seeks male with no government connections.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: Or my favorite is uh dual personality female seeks dual personality male for double dates.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: So the dating service idea came first and then the punchlines came after that.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_05: You know, I think that this is actually a really good example of whenever you can like have humor and sort of make fun of a group without disparaging them.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_05: Like it's the the uh people with mental illness here are not they are not the punchline.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_05: It is the mental illness that is the punchline itself.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_05: I think that's kind of the the It is.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: It is, yeah.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: If I got up on stage and made fun of uh somebody that was having a panic attack, well that, you know, I mean it's just just mean.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's not funny, it's just mean.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um but if I'm you know, almost all the jokes are about myself.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: Almost all of them, you know, are about my experiences and um or you know what goes on in my head.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: So and I don't make fun of anybody.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it's about the experiences, yeah.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: And you don't punch down.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it's even the even the suicide jokes.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you can get you know, you can get edgy, that's about as edgy as I get with the uh there's another suicide joke.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: I taught uh a comedy class at the Oregon State Hospital for the Criminally Insane, for the criminally insane.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: Seriously, so and it so I taught that class, and one of the guys in the class was in the hospital.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he was just obsessed with suicide, he kept attempting suicide, he couldn't help it, he just, you know, whatever.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: And um so we came up with a suicide joke for him, and it was um uh I'm obsessed with suicide, but it's getting better because now when I see myself jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge, I'm wearing a floaty.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_05: Have you noticed like what are what are some of the if you don't mind, we don't have to get into some of the people in the book, but the people who have taken your to kind of take in that comedy class, can you talk about like uh maybe like a change or someone being able to kind of uh see something that they've struggled with their entire lives through a different lens or something?
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh Molly was one example.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: There was another uh a fella, Michael, came to class.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: And again, he was mid-twenties, but his mom brought him and uh they drove 90 miles to come to the class.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but he came and he talked in a whisper.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: He couldn't speak above a whisper.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: He just couldn't, you could barely hear him.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: And um as we went through the class, we found humor in his stories.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: We found humor in his not being able to talk above a whisper.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_00: And we wrote some jokes, and then I had him go home and go into the bathroom and tell his jokes out loud.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then he did that, and the next time he talked a little louder, and then I had him go home and go to the garage and shout at the top of his lungs, shout his jokes at the top of his lungs.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: And he came back and he was talking louder and talking, and then we had our performance, uh, and he got up on stage and he just knocked it out of the park.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: He was, you know, just right out there.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: He was loud, he was talking, he was bold, he was confident, he was complete, complete, complete change.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh just the transformation was amazing.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: It was truly amazing.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_05: It's interesting to me, uh, you know, him talking in a whisper.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_05: That kind of reminded me of what you had said, uh, you know, like whenever you were kind of going at, or whenever you're talking about your Lois point, where you said that like felt like you, you know, like almost like heard something snap, and that your voice became like monotone with no, you know, kind of no effect.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_05: It's it's interesting to me that that's what kind of the depress one one sign of depression there is just kind of like being monotone.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, and it you know, it it happens in the brain.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like with the clinical depression, and that's why I think you know there's a chemical imbalance because it happens and there are physical, there are, you know, there are physical impacts.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: So there's chemical change and it happens.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: And uh yeah, your voice goes monotone.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I spoke softly.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I didn't, it was above a whisper, but you know, I couldn't speak loud.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: I just, I just couldn't, it just wasn't there.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's it's it's common.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: You see, and you know, I see people and I recognize people with mental illness.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: I recognize people with depression, I recognize people with anxiety.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: I can we we can see it in each other's eyes.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: I used to go to a when I had to go to some kind of function, some kind of event, whatever, I'd I'd I'd go and I'd stand against the wall and I'd try to blend into the wall and be as invisible.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'd just try to be invisible.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, somebody came to talk to me, I'd answer in one word, one syllable, you know, answers, and then escape as soon as I can.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I see people, um, I see people with the anxiety um trying to just trying to exist, just trying to be, trying to do the best they can.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: I see people that are depressed, um, that are holding it together.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um It's the eyes, right?
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's the eyes.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's the eyes.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'd wear sunglasses and and uh the anxiety would lessen when I wore sunglasses.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_05: I uh I I used to um yeah, I used to wear sunglasses and say um like uh at very inappropriate times.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_05: And if anyone would say anything and be like, ah, sun never sets on a badass.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: There you go.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you know, I knew with sunglasses on people couldn't look into my eyes and I couldn't see it.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: They couldn't see my my sense of self-dread, my just the whatever was was in me or not in me at the time.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_05: You know, I kind of I think I've described it as a almost a sense of imposter syndrome, but that's not quite I wouldn't quite call it accurate, but it would essentially be if you and I were in the room together, I would just be afraid that like you would be able to just basic to see through me.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_05: And like the the the airs that I'm putting up, you are going to actually see that I am this weak, insecure, vulnerable and I would just that I mean that thought would terrify me.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_05: And like it would peek in the back of my mind for pretty much our our entire interaction.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's exactly what happens.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's exactly how it is.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: It is terrifying.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, I'd start to sweat when my panic attacks would always start my sweat, and and and when I say sweat, I'd start with you know, beating up on my forehead, but then I'd sweat, I'd I'd refuse drip sweat, and my armpits would get soaked, my back would get soaked, the back of my collar would get soaked.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'd uh yeah, and I'd just have to escape.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: It was everything I could do not to just turn and run.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, yeah, it is it is terrifying.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um but you you talked about imposter syndrome, I think.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh pretending, maybe is a different way to say it.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um we're not pretending.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we're I pretended to be okay.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: I tried so hard.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_00: I tried so hard I to pretend to be okay.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: I tried so hard.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um so people would talk to me or ask me how you doing, you know, and I'd respond in an appropriate way if I could, and I'd pretend to be okay.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_05: And it was Living the Dream.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, living the dream.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it was uh like when I was when I couldn't work for those 14 years, um, and we were homeless, and I'd if I God forbid I'd see somebody I knew and what are you doing?
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm I'm semi-retired, I'm taking some time off.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, whatever.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: I've just and it was exhausting.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: Pretending to be okay, it was exhausting.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I wasn't like imposter syndrome, I see is trying to gain gain something, you know, pretend to be somebody or not to gain something.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas pretending, you know, just pretending to be okay is uh is different.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_00: But I I it's exhausting.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_00: I see people, and again, you see it in their eyes.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: And when we meet a fellow traveler and we can get some recognition and some acceptance, uh it's calming and um it helps because we know we're not alone.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um I've seen people standing alone, um trying to be invisible, you know, um and hurting, and I've gone up and I've just asked if it was okay if I stood next to him, you know.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know, said I'm having a hard time.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_02: Do you mind if I stand next to you?
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's it's calming.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: Then then it's not just me standing there being scared to death.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's two of us.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_05: I love that comedy is like not only kind of reclaimed your like power over your like mental illness, but it's also kind of sets you up for uh like kind of who you are as a person, being able to just go about and like live live the best life you can.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think when you've hurt so bad and then you come out the other side and they see people hurting, you know, you got this compassion, this empathy, you know, um non-judgmental, you know, I think.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um so if if I think people who have been through my experience, uh when when they get to the right spot in their healing process, um, you know, uh reach out if they can.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I tell my kids, I told my kids from from the time forever.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: And every day when they went to school, I'd I'd tell them, uh, do something nice for somebody today.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then at dinner time that night, I'd ask them if they did something nice for somebody today.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, when they were young, it was simple stuff like, I mean, just um, you know, just really simple stuff.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_00: And and uh then as they got older it became more substantial.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: But so yeah, that's kind of one of my things is do something nice for somebody today.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_00: Gets me out of my head, um, makes a difference for somebody else.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's interesting.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: I was in the hospital, I had uh surgery, and then I had some complications.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: I had to lay flat on my back for three days.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: Just, I mean, they they had a level on the bed to make sure I was flat.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: And uh all I could do is look at the ceiling, and so I was in my head the whole time.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so I kind of went through my life just and the things that I remembered, I mean, regrets, I had regrets and whatnot, but but they just kind of passed, you know, because I didn't do anything intentionally to hurt anybody, but uh the things that I remember that felt good were the things I did, you know, when I did something for somebody else.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I th I think um, yeah, do something nice for somebody every day.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: And the other thing, um, if I can say one of the things, don't get stuck.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I could have got stuck in my in the darkness.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_00: I could have um given up.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: I could have um said, okay, this is I could have resigned myself.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: I call it um acceptance without resignation.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_00: I could have resigned myself to this is always how it's gonna be.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I I didn't, I kept trying.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: I even if it was just sitting on a different place on the couch, um just you know, eating out of a different bowl, uh, just little things to start with, and then more and more is is don't get, you know, trying not to get stuck and just uh keep trying.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_05: If uh if if people are want to find out uh more about uh you or to uh pick up your book, where can they go?
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_00: They can go to DaveMowry.com, best spot.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um I've got links to the books right there.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh both the books are on Amazon.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, and the audiobook for MG That's Me Three is outselling the paperback is doing really well.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then the audiobook for Healing with Humor is awesome and it's gonna be out soon.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um so definitely if um love for you to buy the book.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_00: But uh if you're if you like listening to audiobooks, uh look for the audiobook in in uh two to four weeks and uh pick that up.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's be a great experience.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, DaveMatrie.com um or um you know both the books are on Amazon.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_05: Dave, thank you so much for acting out with me.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: Hey Adam, thanks for having me.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_00: It was a good time.