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Mini: Stop Looking at Me, Swan! · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we Do what we Do. Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to Why we Do what we Do Mini. I am
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: your host Abraham and I'm your O Shane. We are
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: a psychology podcast. We talk about all of the things
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: that people and animals do, and sometimes we talk about
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: when they do the one thing and they just won't
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: stop doing it. They just they're holding it in place indifferently.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and leading up to this episode, I am curious
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: about what your Adam Sandler impression looks like.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Stop looking at me, swan, Stop staring at me Squawan. Yeah,
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: it's Yours is much better than mine. Mine is terrible.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: I've never been good at impressions.
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: I'm just loud.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: Well, no, you captured the tone and I couldn't do
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: it anyway. If you're joining us for the first time,
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: thank you. We're happy to have you. These minis that
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: we do we release on Mondays. They are a short
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: form episode type where we do a sort of a
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: brief dive into a topic. I'm back it to the
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: best of our ability and then get out of there
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: so you can get about your day.
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: So today we are talking about staring, which is something
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: that people do and they do a lot. I one
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: time got caught. I wasn't trying to stare. I had
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: zoned out, but I happened to be looking at somebody's
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: direction and they ate that happened French fries, and they
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: made eye contact with me while I was like acting
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: as staring, and they were eating French fries very slowly,
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: and I and I did. I realized after it was
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: too late that I had been staring, and it was
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: very embarrassing for everybody involved. That happened ten years ago,
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: and I think about it often well.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: And importantly when what we're unpacking today, because we've actually
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: talked about staring to some extent, and now I'm thinking
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: that maybe maybe we need a different topic here, or
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: at least a different way to approach this, because what
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: we've talked about in the past is if you can
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: feel someone staring at you, you can't. And what we're
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: talking about today is why it makes us uncomfortable to
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: be stared at. And so somewhere in there as an
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: episode just about staring, I guess, yeah, exactly, Well, we
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: will kick this episode off then by defining that thing
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: that maybe at some point we'll just have to make
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: a full length treatment and that is that the staring phenomenon.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: And if you aren't aware, I guess I'll tell you
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: now that staring is fixing one's gaze upon something or someone.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: It usually implies that all attention is being allocated toward
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: the target of the stare. So this is seeing people's
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: with eyeballs oriented in a particular direction.
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: So when it comes to this type of phenomenon, context
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: does matter. Some of us get stared at professionally. I
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: have played in bands. I have been stared at while
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: I played music. Yeah, saudis right.
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: My modeling career, whenever I was on the catwalks, people
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: would stare. You know, people I used it. My friends
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: call me a monster. And when I'm put on stage
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: and putting like quote unquote freak shows and all that,
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: people would stare. So like, I've had all sorts of
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: experiences being stared at.
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: But there you go.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: Those who go into acting or other performing, giving speeches
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: or leading a group of people, they put themselves in
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: a position in which we do that. When we put
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: ourselves in that position, we will be stared at. So
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: in those situations it's more or less expected and often
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: enjoyed as a matter of fact, staring in those situations
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: is probably a good sign that people are paying attention
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: to you.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's like why you're there. So it's not that
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: in all cases we hate being stared at, but there
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: are cases in which we do not want to be
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: stared at. Most of us are not in the position
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: of are going about our day where we are leaders
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: or actors, or are on the catwalk or playing in
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: a band like those might make up some of our time,
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: but probably not most of it, and most of us
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: aren't in those positions very often, if ever. So it's
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: kind of the difference then between solicited and unsolicited attention,
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: and the context we described before was the solicited and
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: what we're talking about in this discussion is why we
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: get uncomfortable in the unsolicited staring.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: Right, and so not to give anyone another thing to
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: be paranoid about, but the fear of being stared at
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  Speaker 2: is called scopeophobia, which is actually so appropriate.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah that sounds right.
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  Speaker 3: I actually really love that.
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  Speaker 2: Like other phobias, it is characterized by excessive, debilitating fear
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  Speaker 2: of being stared at, and people in this situation strongly
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  Speaker 2: avoid social situations.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: And that is as much as we want to say
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: about scopophobia, but it is that if you're hearing this
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  Speaker 1: for the first time and thinking that's me, it's probably
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: not you. Try not to self diagnose. Sure, even unsolicited
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: staring might be enjoyable. I can imagine another context here
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: where it's unsolicited. If we find the person who is
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: staring at us exceedingly attractive and they appear to be
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: showing us attention because maybe they find us attractive, then
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: we might like feel flattered. Again, there's probably like a
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: timing length at which it crosses into I was flattered,
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: now I'm creeped out. But like just some am of
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: unsolicited staring might be like, oh, look at that person's
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  Speaker 1: really attractive and they're looking at me. Maybe they think
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: I'm attractive, and that might feel good for a moment.
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I could see that.
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  Speaker 2: However, it is normal to have an uncomfortable reaction to
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: unsolicited staring. People report that staring can feel aggressive, dominating,
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: or demeaning and threatening. They further report that they feel
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: self conscious like they may be unintentionally committing some type
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  Speaker 2: of social faux pas that is leading to the staring,
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: like unzipped pants or something stuck in your teeth or
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: just otherwise being judged. Like typically when you're getting stared at,
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: you're thinking you kind of go, oh, something's wrong, like
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: there's something like you wouldn't stare at me for no reason.
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: You must be staring because something is wrong.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like something got your attention. And as you might imagine,
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: a people with autism often will report discomfort with looking
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: directly at other people's eyes themselves. But interestingly, I have
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: not I didn't find any reports that they were concerned
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: with being looked at. They just didn't like looking at
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: other people's eyes was the thing that made them the
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: most uncomfortable. Being stared at didn't seem to come up
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: very often. That's not to say that it wouldn't be
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: the case for anyone. And if you're someone who is
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: autistic and you have like some thoughts about that, feel
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: free to share them with us. We'd love to hear
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: what you have to say about being stared at. But
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: generally speaking, the report that is given as mostly I
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: don't like looking at other people in the eyes, and
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: there's very little that I've seen and I really couldn't
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: find anything for this where they said I don't like
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: being looked at as a thing. Yeah, but yeah, so
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: staring can feel uncomfortable, almost as uncomfortable as ads.
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  Speaker 2: So a twenty seventeen study by Weyke, I'm imagining it's
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: Wyke or Wick week week.
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  Speaker 1: I'm not sure Mike looks good. I like w W
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  Speaker 1: E I c K.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: McCall and Blaskevic in Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin randomly
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: split eighty people into three group its low power, medium power,
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: and high power and primed them. Which is really fascinating
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: that it's low power, medium power, and high power like that. Yeah,
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: it feels like something from the Boys, like I could
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: see that I can see have, or like some like
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: Avengers recruitment thing. It's like, now you can be your
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: street level. You can go be daredevil. We'll go be
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: thor you know. So prime them to embody their level
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: of power assigned by thinking about a time when they
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: were at a level of power like low, medium, or high,
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  Speaker 2: and then they did a VR simulation with either an
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: animated person or robot in which the participant walked around
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  Speaker 2: the person and then a robot. The people who were
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  Speaker 2: in the highest power group were more likely to approach
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  Speaker 2: and look at the person and robot rather than people
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  Speaker 2: and the other two groups. The author suggested that where
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: participants put themselves was in relation to their perceived place
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  Speaker 2: of power and social hierarchy.
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  Speaker 1: Which I mean. So there are some images of this
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  Speaker 1: that they shared from the study, and it looks like
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  Speaker 1: a bland almost early two thousands level graphics, often with
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: a random person standing in the room, and then they
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: have sort of paths that people walked where they were
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  Speaker 1: like the high, medium and low power, and the if
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  Speaker 1: you weren't on the high power group, you generally walked
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: further away from the thing in the middle of the room.
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  Speaker 1: But I always feel like you're stretching a bit to
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: interpret why someone did something just based on what they
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: did and making something up. But we've talked about that
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: in other discussions, so go see those I guess right. Anyway,
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: they played with some other parameters of how they set
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: up this experiment, and they found similar outcomes when they
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: changed whether the target in the room appeared short or tall,
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: or appeared male or female, and whether it seemed to
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  Speaker 1: ignore the participant or stare at them. So they would
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  Speaker 1: sort of have some different parameters of how the VR
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: setup happened. All indications suggested that a participants' perception of
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: power or dominance in a situation leads people to stare more,
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  Speaker 1: and that would imply that people who are being stared
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  Speaker 1: at may feel like the dar rror is being dominating
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: and imposing, And so what they were sort of interpreting
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: is the people who were primed with higher power stared more,
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: suggesting that when people are being stared at, the person
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  Speaker 1: who's doing the staring feels powerful, and so you were
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  Speaker 1: to interpret them as believing themselves to be in a
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: position of power. Again, feels like a bit of a
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: stretch could be the case, but it also feels like
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: you're just super imposing your own judgments on top of
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  Speaker 1: what happened.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: Right absolutely now. Evolutionarily speaking, I love I love that
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: word because it has so many syllables in it. Evolutionally,
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  Speaker 2: evolutionarily evolutionarily, I love it so. Evolutionarily speaking, we are
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  Speaker 2: a social species that relies heavily upon our sense of vision.
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  Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, like some of our other
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: senses are pretty terrible compared to our vision.
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  Speaker 3: Our vision's pretty okay, it is comparatively.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: We are good at vision. We are bad at scent
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: and hearing relatively like other animals. Like our visions compared
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: to most other animals is like really really good. Not
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: as good as an eagle or like many birds of prey,
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: but like our vision's really really good compared to most
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: other animals, but our hearing and smell compared to other
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: animals may as well not exist. It's like so far
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: away from what most other animals can do.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty impressive. It's pretty impressive, that gap, the
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: sense gap. Yeah, so we have evolved to be sensitive
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: to eye contact as a form of communication and bearing
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: social relevance, or else we socially have passed that behavior
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: on for so long that we now teach it even
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: without meaning to, or both. It could be any number
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: of things there.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, One thing we can say with a reasonable degree
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: of confidence is that, at least in Western cultures, unsolicited
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: staring is often thought of as aggressive, threatening, or embarrassing.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: Part of this may be influenced by a long history
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: of religious brittishness, in which many common social behaviors are
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: regarded as inappropriate to the point of being sinful.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: oOoOO, yeah, I don't remember that being one of the
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: seven Deadly sins. Staring, Yeah, it's not like slow, forgot.
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: And what is it like?
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: It's like sloth and oh my god, I can't remember
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: any of this other seven deadly since uh.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: The gorging one, what is it gluttony? Gluttony, that's what
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: it is.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, none of them are cyclopean. Nothing to do
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: with eyeballs.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: So that's good. That's pretty good.
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: It's exhausting.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: Further, in Western tradition, steering behavior is often punished with
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: aggressive reactions, such as confrontations to the stair or other conflicts.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: So if you like to stare, be careful.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: It could evoked some things, which, again, the reaction that
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: you get from your sort of audience informs how we
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: culturally then think about that behavior of this case, staring, right, So,
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: unsolicited staring can make us feel uncomfortable, particularly when it
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: lasts longer than we have been trained it to expect
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: to last. But why why would this bother us? Because
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: we just say like, it makes us uncomfortable. It might
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: be perceived as aggressive, but why Obviously cultural variables are
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: largely at play here. Many others don't care or even
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: notice when they're being stared at, but we have these
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: societal expectations that start getting shaped pretty early in life.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: Think about, like, babies are cute when they stare. We
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: see babies they're staring at things like, oh, that's cute,
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: and like there's no point at which they're staring. Becomes
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: creepy because they're just babies. They're just like staring at stuff, right,
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: But once they can talk, staring starts to like mean
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: something else to us, and we start telling children it's
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: rude to stare, so we grow up with it really
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: early on. Again, I'm speaking largely from like a Western
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: perspective right now.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: Right, and to be fair, staring strongly implies that we
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: are controlling someone's attention. The reasons we would be holding
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: someone's attention in a way that we'll resulting staring are
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: often that we stand out to them for some reason
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: when we are not trying to stand out. And then
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: when we start to feel we are capturing someone's attention
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: for a reason, we don't want to be capturing their
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: attention for like, so if we are kind of trying
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: to keep a low profile and somebody starts staring, we go, ah,
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: that's weird, like that, no thanks, you know, we look
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: weird or funny or otherwise violating some cultural norm, or
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: that person is going to try to get something from us,
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: and so they have turned their attention to us. So
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: it's either that we're standing out for some reason. Either
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: that person has found something about us is that they
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: are paying attention to, or we're doing something that is
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: drawing their attention to us.
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we've been talking long enough that we can turn
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: our attention away from this and plan an ad. All right,
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: we're about to wrap up here. We're talking about the staring,
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: why it makes us feel uncomfortable and and what you
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: just mentioned was important here is that like thinking about
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: what are the conditions under which we would have someone
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: stare at us when we didn't try and have someone
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: stare at us. And it's again, it's like we see
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: someone staring, and we automatically can start well not automatically necessarily,
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: but it's very easy to begin start placing and like
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: what about me would grab their attention in this way?
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: And you can imagine if you're someone who's like a celebrity,
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: you might actually immediately jump to will they probably recognize
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: me because I'm a popular public figure.
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: I say that all the time.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: It's not necessarily something that's gonna like stand out as alarming,
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: like in other situations where you would not expect people
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: to be staring at you. Right, So, in a similar
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: vein someone who again I mentioned this earlier, but someone
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: who's staring at us who we find very attractive, it
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: might that we find them attractive, might imply that they
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: also find us attractive. And so long as the staring
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: is accompanied by other social gestures, like you notice someone staring,
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: they smile, you smile, you break eye contact, you might
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: briefly even enjoy the attention for a moment. But again
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: there's that timing length component to factor in there.
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: Right now.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: Of course, a lot of women might be particularly concerned
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: with staring for men, as it may suggest the man
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: in question is going to pursue them in some way
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: that is unwanted. Men, tall people or muscular pace people
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: staring or likely to be the most disconcerting to anyone
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: on the receiving end of their gaze, which is why
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: I don't stare.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, uh, it would be it could be very scary
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: because you're.
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: So tall, being a tall and muscular person, And that
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: was that.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: Actually that study found similar things, is that like shorter
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: people were less likely to stare and more bothered by it.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: So yeah, by the way, and we mentioned this at
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: the top, we mentioned this in our other episode. I'm
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: gonna mention it again. People cannot tell when they are
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: being stared at from any angle beyond their peripheral vision.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: They say they can, but if you test them, they
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: are as inaccurate as you can be, which is about
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: fifty percent of the wrong. Because it's either you are
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: you aren't being stared at. Right, If you're fifty percent right,
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: that means you're one hundred percent wrong. Because again, like
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: if you were so if you were so wrong, you
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: were the opposite of like when it wasn't happening. You're
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: basically identifying something and nobody gets there because you can't tell,
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: because that's dumb. In some Eastern traditions, it might be
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: considered respectful to stare at someone, but again that's not
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: universally the case. Just to understand that, again, we're impacting
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: this from a Western tradition, not all cultures around the world. Again,
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: even Western cultures. I mean we're talking about the whole
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: Western hemisphere here, right, but like we're coming from a
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: uniquely American perspective on this. Other cultures around the world
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: have different feelings about this, which again tells us it
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: is not inherently innate. It is something that we grow
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: up with and our language gives us the ability to
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: pretty easily switch if someone's looking at me what like,
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: we can take the perspective of what is controlling their attention. Again,
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: seems pretty unique to humans. No other animals seem to
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: quite do it in the way that we do or
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: with our language. But anyway, we've run very long on
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: this mini. Is there anything you would like to add
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: or anything that I forgot before we wrap this up? No?
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: I think that covers it. Don't stare people unless they
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: want to be stared at it.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, that's exactly right. Yeah, some people do, maybe
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: they do, but find out first, don't just assume that
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: they do. If you would like to tell us about staring,
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: you can reach us at info at WWDWWD podcast dot com.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: We're also on the social media platforms including blue Sky
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: and increasingly I would say, if you'd like to support us,
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: you can leave us a rating and review, like and subscribe,
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: tell a friend, join us on Patreon, pick up some
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: merch from our merch store. But again, just thank you
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: so much for being with us today. Thank you Shane
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: for recording with me anytime, thanks for being here, and
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: actually thanks to my whole team for all the work
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: that they do. I think that is all I have.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: So this is Abraham, this is Shane. Why we Do
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: what we Do? Mini is out bie.
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: You've been listening to Why We Do What We Do.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: going to WWD wwdpodcast dot com. Thanks for listening and
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: we hope you have an awesome day