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Dustin Benac on Adaptability, Authority, and Future Church · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:12
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:43
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:46
Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes Dustin
0:49
Benac to the program. Dustin
0:52
is an educator, practical theologian,
0:55
and organizational strategist. He
0:58
teaches at UH Baylor University's George W.
1:01
Truitt Theological Seminary. As the co
1:04
founding director for the Program for the Future
1:06
Church, he has supported and studied
1:09
communities of faith who are navigating transition
1:11
and uncertainty across North
1:14
America. Prior to his appointment at
1:16
Baylor, Dustin was a postdoctoral
1:19
associate with Kate Bowler and the Everything
1:22
Happens Project at UH Duke University.
1:25
Dustin is the author or editor of
1:28
multiple books and articles. His latest book,
1:31
Adaptive Church Collaboration and
1:34
Community in a Changing World, explores
1:37
what it takes for communities of faith to navigate
1:39
organizational change. An
1:42
accomplished speaker, teacher and fundraiser,
1:45
he has worked with congregations and researchers
1:48
across Canada, the United Kingdom, New Zealand,
1:51
and the United States. He is a graduate of
1:54
Duke University with a Doctor of Theology
1:57
and Master of Divinity degrees and
1:59
Whitworth University. Dustin lives in Waco,
2:03
Texas with his wife Casey, their three kids,
2:05
and a lab, Lila. A
2:08
reminder before we start today's conversation,
2:11
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
2:14
leave a review and share Future Christian with a
2:17
friend. Connect with Loren, Martha and
2:20
Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot
2:23
us an email@, uh,
2:24
laurensonatemediapro.com
2:28
with comments, questions or ideas for future
2:31
episodes. We appreciate your voice
2:34
in how we faithfully discern the future of the
2:37
church.
2:48
>> Loren: All right, welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This
2:51
is Loren Richmond Jr. And I'm pleased to be joined
2:54
today by Dr. Dustin Benac
2:56
Welcome to the show. Thanks for being here.
2:59
>> Dustin: Thrilled to be here. Love what you guys are doing and delighted to
3:02
have a conversation today.
3:03
>> Loren: Yeah. And, uh, shout out to Martha,
3:06
who's not recording with us
3:09
today, but a, uh, vital member of the podcast.
3:12
Dustin has connected with her in other contexts.
3:14
So, Martha, uh, appreciate your work and
3:17
support and, uh, for listeners, as you're listening to
3:20
this Martha, I guess I'll tease. Martha will be coming out with
3:23
a winter season and then
3:26
we're working on a really good interview actually right now as we're
3:29
recording this too. So excited to tease
3:32
that m. So
3:34
anyway, I don't know when that'll come out, so I don't want to give
3:37
too much details, but Dustin, uh, thanks
3:40
for being here.
3:41
Anything else you want to say about yourself?
3:44
>> Dustin: Yeah, I would say, um, you know, I
3:47
am made up of the people, people that surround
3:49
me. Um, so I'm certainly. We're all more than
3:52
our professional selves. Um, so
3:55
love, love, uh, being a dad. Grateful
3:58
for my wife and life partner Casey.
4:01
Um, and I love being on the river. Uh, you know, those are the
4:03
things that nourish, um, enrich and
4:06
feed my soul and am really grateful,
4:09
uh, for those parts of my life, even as I'm grateful for the things
4:12
I get to do as a creative and professionally
4:15
in this space as well.
4:17
>> Loren: What's the river, uh, in Waco,
4:20
is it?
4:21
>> Dustin: Well, there's a river in Waco. Um,
4:24
I, uh, grew up spending some time in southwestern Colorado.
4:28
Um, I, uh, love the mountain rivers,
4:31
so. Love the small streams, chasing trout,
4:34
getting high up in the mountains. You know, those are, those are the
4:37
spaces that, um, just bring me great
4:40
joy. Uh, and it's been fun as a, as a
4:42
dad to start taking my kids to those rivers and teaching them
4:45
how to, how to walk in the waters, explore, um,
4:49
what's possible, and, um, also, um,
4:51
chase what's around the bend, which, which I think is part of the work of,
4:54
of futuring is chasing what's around the bend.
4:57
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah, that's. That's a good way to say it.
5:00
Share if you would, just a little bit about your faith journey, what that's looked like in the past
5:03
and what that looks like today.
5:05
>> Dustin: Yeah. So I was raised, um, in small town
5:08
Texas, where, um, religion
5:10
runs in the water. Um, and the only thing that
5:13
competes with religion is Friday night football.
5:15
>> Loren: I was just gonna say that.
5:17
>> Dustin: So it's a beautiful context, also a really, ah,
5:20
complex context. Raised in, um,
5:23
a family of faith. And I'm really grateful, uh, for
5:26
the way, um, my family
5:28
nurtured faith. Um, it was a space that was open
5:31
to questions and curiosity. Um, and I had a
5:34
lot of questions. Questions about faith,
5:37
questions about discipleship, questions, um,
5:40
about what it looks like, uh, to
5:43
live a life following Jesus.
5:46
Um, came to faith, um,
5:48
as a young kid,
5:51
but as I think Wesley would say, found, um,
5:55
myself encountering, um,
5:57
faith again and again and
6:00
again. And it was part of that ongoing encounter
6:03
that, um, actually took me out to the Pacific Northwest.
6:06
I, uh, was, um, 18,
6:09
loved the mountains, wanted, uh, um, A great
6:12
adventure. And also felt like I could ask another type of
6:15
question on the other side of the Rockies. Um,
6:18
did undergrad at Whitworth University in Spokane, Washington.
6:21
And uh, that was a space where I was able to see and
6:24
explore the life of faith beyond,
6:26
um, small town Texas and
6:29
uh, the structures of Christendom. And then
6:32
over time, uh, I've learned what it means to
6:35
um, be a disciple and pursue the life of
6:37
faith, um, into adulthood. And I
6:40
found that um, that is work that
6:43
takes place in ordinary spaces in everyday
6:46
life. And that's really the meat and substance of
6:49
faith for me today is, uh, ordinary,
6:51
everyday faith and practice. Still lots of
6:54
questions, but trying to chase out those questions in the
6:57
ordinary everyday spaces.
7:00
>> Loren: Yeah, I appreciate that point you make about, you know,
7:03
faith in the ordinary. And every day, what is,
7:06
um, something that's meaningful for you in that
7:09
ordinary every day that helps sustain you?
7:11
>> Dustin: Yeah, I mentioned my kids already. You know,
7:14
um, I think raising kids is part of discipleship for
7:17
me. Uh, I spend
7:20
um, some of my days as an
7:22
academic, as a scholar, as a teacher,
7:25
um, as a systems, um, thinker
7:28
and systems leader, kind of working at a level of
7:31
abstraction. Um, and then I find that
7:33
m. My kids, we uh, have, uh, age six and
7:36
two. Uh, raising kids, I think, has been a practice
7:39
of discipleship where it not only gets me
7:42
close to the ground metaphorically, it literally gets me close to the
7:45
ground physically where I'm on the ground,
7:48
you know, building, playing with trains or
7:50
kicking a soccer ball or coloring with my daughter.
7:53
Um, and those are the everyday, ordinary things. So I think
7:56
that that grounds me, uh, relationally, personally.
7:59
Uh, you know, the other thing that grounds me physically, um,
8:03
and mentally is, um, running. So
8:06
that's like. That's part of my discipleship practice. Also part of self
8:09
care is I have kind of a threshold of how many
8:12
miles a week I need to run. Um,
8:15
you know, I'm getting older, I'm getting slower.
8:18
Um, but like, that's still part of what
8:20
it means for me to be
8:23
faithful is to take care of my body, um,
8:26
and to run and running. I can
8:29
pray. Uh, and then the other practice
8:32
that has, um, been part
8:35
of my life of faith for, um, more than 20 years is
8:38
the practice of craft, of writing. Uh, whether
8:40
it's journaling or writing
8:44
or trying to craft poetry, um, the
8:47
work of writing slows me down and
8:49
draws me into, um, the
8:52
work of the words in a way
8:55
that I can pay attention to
8:57
myself, pay attention to the world and
9:00
pay attention to what God might be. Inviting me
9:03
and others to do.
9:04
>> Loren: Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that about raising
9:07
kids. That's been a point of
9:10
contention right. In this political season.
9:14
Well, I just think, you know, obviously
9:17
there's some. And I'll be
9:19
generous and generic somewhat,
9:22
you know, there's some who deride not having
9:25
kids. I think there's also this kind
9:28
of context that I see a lot, like, why would you
9:31
have kids? And I
9:34
certainly don't want to tell anyone that they
9:36
should, like that having kids is a must. But
9:39
I think for me at least, I
9:42
think something that is
9:45
fundamental about having kids and I think
9:48
is a good about having kids is you learn life
9:51
is not about you. You learn
9:53
that your life is not meant to be centered around
9:56
you. I mean, that's one of my
9:59
fundamental beliefs is I, uh, think as a
10:02
Christian that our life is not
10:05
meant just for us, for our. My
10:07
own purposes. And I think having kids
10:10
is a great way to kind of de. Center
10:13
yourself from yourself being the center
10:16
of your world. And obviously, like, we don't want to.
10:19
You and I both have probably seen kids or
10:22
families that have kids
10:25
thinking kids will solve their marriage
10:27
initials or wounds.
10:30
Um, but I'm also thinking, like, I
10:33
think having kids is a great way
10:35
to, uh. Like you said,
10:38
uh, disciple.
10:40
>> Dustin: Yeah, yeah, I think that's exactly right, Loren. And,
10:42
um, I also think it brings a lot of humility. At
10:45
least I think
10:48
there's ways of thinking
10:51
about and pursuing the life of faith where,
10:54
um. Particularly if you're a professional Christian of any time, whether
10:57
you're a pastor or a priest or professor, where
11:00
we have these concepts, uh,
11:03
and these abstract ideas that guide the
11:06
life of faith.
11:06
>> Loren: Yes.
11:07
>> Dustin: Uh, and I think the work of raising kids is
11:10
a great joy and a great challenge, and it brings a lot of humility,
11:13
um, because I get it wrong more times than I get it
11:15
right. Um, um, my
11:18
kids bring all sorts of wonderful puzzles.
11:21
And then as we're thinking about passing on faith
11:24
to the next generation, it
11:26
requires thinking, um, and
11:29
praying and working
11:32
to care, um, for my, um,
11:35
children, but also others children. I think that's part of the life of
11:38
discipleship, is supporting the future of faith, not just for my
11:40
kids, but for your kids and others kids and
11:43
other generations. Because I think that's part of the
11:46
life of faith is caring for the future of, uh, our
11:49
children. And that means all of our children.
11:51
>> Loren: Yeah.
11:52
All right. We're here to talk with Dustin today about his
11:54
book and really some. Some finer topics in the book. But
11:57
Dustin is the author of the book Adoptive church, or, excuse me,
12:00
adaptive church. Collaboration and community in
12:03
a changing world. So before we get into
12:06
kind of diving into some finer details, why don't you
12:09
just talk about the book, the goals, the aims, all that of the
12:12
project.
12:13
>> Dustin: Sure, I'd love to. Um, so
12:16
first, uh, the work of research and the work of
12:19
futuring the church is always contextual and local. So I want to
12:22
say a little bit where the book is located.
12:25
>> Loren: Yeah.
12:25
>> Dustin: And then talk a bit more about, uh, what I was trying to do with
12:28
the book, what I learned along the way, and what I think the
12:31
consequences. Uh, the book is based in the Pacific
12:34
Northwest. Uh, and the Pacific Northwest is
12:37
a region of the country where there's
12:39
historically a marginal position for religious
12:42
organizations and also, um, a
12:44
history of religious innovation and
12:46
entrepreneurship. Um, as one person I talked to in
12:49
the region shared, um, innovation is in the water we
12:52
drink. Uh, very simply. To be a person
12:55
of faith requires, uh, being
12:57
innovative, being collaborative,
13:00
uh, being contextual, and also being
13:03
rooted in the history of Christian
13:06
faith and practice. Sociologists, uh,
13:09
of religion have identified the Pacific Northwest
13:12
as a laboratory to learn
13:15
where Christianity and North America is
13:17
going. Uh, so it's an ideal context
13:20
to think about, uh, current trends, future
13:23
trends, and also potential models
13:26
that can support the future of faith
13:29
on the other side of Christendom.
13:32
Um, there are really kind of two key objectives,
13:35
uh, in the book. Uh, first to
13:38
document, um, and learn from emerging
13:41
organizational forms in the region, uh, one of which I call
13:44
a hub. And we'll talk more about that in a minute. Um, and
13:47
that's kind of the descriptive component of the book. And then the
13:50
constructive aspect of it is to think with and
13:52
beyond these innovative faith leaders about the
13:55
theology and the practice that guides their
13:58
work, that guides their ministry and that guides
14:01
their life. Um, of faith. Uh, I talk
14:04
about the, uh, practice of collaboration. We talk about
14:07
authority, uh, we talk about context,
14:10
and we also talk about the sense of possibility. Um,
14:13
and this is, I think, particularly important because
14:16
there's an abundance of anxiety right now as
14:19
religious, uh, organized religious life is changing. But one of the things
14:22
I saw in the Pacific Northwest is really a sense of possibility.
14:25
Possibility for faithfulness on the other side of
14:27
Christendom, possibility for vitality in local
14:30
communities, and possibility for, um, the
14:33
reality and possibilities of God to be encountered
14:36
in new ways and also in the existing
14:39
forms, congregations and practices that have guided the life of
14:42
faith.
14:43
>> Loren: Well, I'm encouraged to hear that. If anything to
14:46
hear. I mean, I think so often in this Christian
14:49
space, everybody is just doom and Gloom about
14:52
the future. So that's
14:55
refreshing.
14:56
>> Dustin: Yeah. And we need to tell the truth. I mean, there's
14:59
a whole host of complex challenges. The landscape
15:02
is changing. Uh, we need to tend to the
15:05
grief, the loss, the anxiety
15:08
that is in our congregation. So I'm not trying to dismiss that.
15:11
Um, and I also think we need to consider if we're
15:14
looking in the right spaces, um,
15:16
because, uh, there is vitality,
15:19
there is hope, but maybe not where we're looking. I, uh,
15:22
remember, uh, when I was getting ready to go out to the
15:25
Pacific Northwest, was in wonderful small
15:28
town Texas church. And I had this
15:30
wonderful kind of mother of the church walk up to me. I
15:33
was getting ready to go to college and he said, dustin, I know you're getting to
15:36
go. You're getting ready to go out to the Pacific Northwest.
15:39
Um, and as you go out there, better look
15:42
out for the liberals.
15:43
>> Loren: Right.
15:44
>> Dustin: I didn't know what she meant or what she was concerned about, but there was
15:47
this perception that somehow you go to the Northwest
15:50
to lose your faith. Um, and what I found
15:53
is actually vitality of faith,
15:55
creativity, hope.
15:57
>> Loren: But.
15:57
>> Dustin: But people just weren't looking in the right spaces.
16:01
>> Loren: Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. That's a fun story.
16:04
Uh, so let's dive in a little bit. Just talk about. You
16:07
use the. Of hubs and networks
16:10
throughout as a new kind of ecclesial
16:12
model, as I understand it. So talk more about that.
16:16
>> Dustin: Yeah, I say the first thing I'd say, Loren, is this is both
16:18
new and very old. M. The life of
16:21
faith has been networked and connectional,
16:25
um, from the beginning of the
16:27
church. Um, there's a whole section in, uh, my book about
16:30
Luke Acts. Um, and part of that is trying to
16:33
actually ground this networked form
16:36
of the life of faith within,
16:39
um, the historic story of the church.
16:42
Um, so even as part of the work I'm pointing to
16:45
is something that is new and emerging. Uh,
16:48
it's also, also very old. So, uh, I want to
16:51
be mindful of that. And we could point to
16:53
moments of decisive transition, um, in
16:56
the way people of faith have organized a common
16:59
life where connections and
17:02
networks and encounter was the site
17:05
to discern the new things that God was doing in our
17:07
communities. Um, and
17:10
I also think there is something new bubbling up in the Pacific
17:13
Northwest and all around the country.
17:16
I talk about these as hubs. Uh, and by
17:19
hubs I mean it's neither, ah,
17:22
uh, excuse me, neither a megachurch nor a
17:24
denomination, um, but it's this densely
17:27
networked organizational form that anchors
17:30
religious life within a particular community and
17:32
facilitates these webs of connection
17:35
across a broader community of faith. Um,
17:38
the two operative verbs there are
17:40
anchors and webs. Um,
17:43
hubs anchor the life of faith in a particular
17:46
locale and geography.
17:49
I think the future of faith is increasingly
17:51
local. So hubs are rooted. Hubs
17:54
are grounded. They're indexed and connected
17:57
to a particular community. Maybe it's a neighborhood, maybe
18:00
it's a city, maybe it's a region.
18:03
Um, but it's rooted in the soil, it's
18:06
rooted in the ground, it's rooted in the places people of
18:09
faith inhabit. And it also facilitates
18:12
these webs of connection across a
18:14
broader ecology of faith. It connects
18:17
congregations to nonprofits, to social
18:20
enterprise, to entrepreneurs, to
18:22
activism, um, to educational institutions.
18:25
And these hubs are these dense
18:27
networks that facilitate these webs of
18:30
connection. Um, that's what I mean by
18:33
hubs. Uh, and one of the striking things is that other people
18:36
are diagnosing and naming something similar. Um, you know,
18:39
Ted Smith has talked about in his book the End of Theological
18:41
Education, how there's a transition in the way
18:44
people gather from these
18:47
voluntary associations,
18:49
um, to authentic individualism. Um, the work
18:52
that Ted's doing and the work that I'm doing are very similar in the
18:55
descriptive and diagnostic work that we're doing. Yeah,
18:58
he's saying the way people organize the life of
19:01
faith is shifting. It's shifting in
19:04
fundamental ways after being fixed, um,
19:07
for roughly 200 years. Um, Bob
19:09
Smintia, his book Reorganized Religion, is doing the
19:12
same thing. He's diagnosing that the way people of
19:15
faith organize is changing.
19:18
But it doesn't mean there's any less faith.
19:21
It just means people are organizing in different
19:23
ways. And I think part of the ways people are
19:26
organizing are as these
19:28
hubs. Um, this is what denominations used to
19:31
be. This is what denominations can be. This is what congregations
19:34
used to be. This is what they can be. But we have to
19:37
understand that the way we organize is changing, the
19:40
way people connect is changing, and the way
19:43
we pursue a common life of faith is changing as
19:45
well.
19:46
>> Loren: Yeah, I think that leads right into what I wanted to talk to you more
19:49
about. Also, uh, reference for our listeners. I do have an
19:52
episode back with Ted Smith, so be sure and check
19:55
that out. I'm also thinking, I was just
19:58
listening yesterday to
20:01
Tom Ranier, who talked about,
20:04
I think anecdotally more so, but
20:07
him and his son. I forget what their podcast is
20:10
about. They were talking anecdotally about how
20:13
they think megachurches are going to be the
20:15
ones that face the Biggest decline from baby
20:18
boomer, uh, that generation
20:21
going away. And he was making the point
20:24
also that there is this localized
20:27
trend. So it really speaks to what you're saying
20:30
as well.
20:31
But, uh, I want to mention the organizational
20:33
changing norms and as I was reading the
20:36
book and I want to recommend for our listeners there's a
20:39
lot more in the book he discusses to check
20:42
out about hubs and networks. But I kept
20:45
thinking around this trend that you
20:48
mentioned with Ted Smith examines and
20:51
these newer organizational trends.
20:54
For me, the question of authority has um,
20:57
come up for me again and again and you
21:00
addressed it directly in your
21:03
book. So I want to just dive into some of that
21:06
and maybe let
21:09
me start this way. As I think about like
21:12
Ted Smith has written about, uh, I'm
21:15
certainly thinking Nandra Root has sort of
21:18
explored this broader theme
21:21
as well in his work.
21:26
And I think like even I had a pass interview with Scott
21:29
Thumma who we kind of talked about this.
21:33
Like I asked Scott Thumb, I think what is like the new,
21:36
what's going to be the new organizational
21:39
model of church or something that, and he's like
21:42
the individual. And I think about this when I think
21:45
about Instagram, like who's the guy?
21:47
Steven Furtick for instance.
21:51
And certainly the mainline doesn't see this quite as
21:53
dramatically as evangelical non
21:56
denom spaces. But it seems like
22:00
even in liberal progressive Christian spaces
22:03
there is this like centering of individuals
22:07
which does a lot of good because
22:10
they're able to have a big reach and impact.
22:13
Um, and I'll frame it from this way,
22:16
like I'm ordained in a mainline denomination
22:19
and as part of that maintaining my
22:22
ordination status, I have to submit
22:24
to regular reviews and
22:28
trainings and on and on
22:31
the question of again, authority. Who has
22:34
authority? How do they keep their authority?
22:37
This is a loaded question and I'm giving a lot here,
22:40
so I'll stop talking and respond to
22:43
what resonates with you there.
22:46
>> Dustin: Yeah, I think it's a meaningful and powerful
22:49
question and one that we need to ask and need
22:52
to continue asking. I appreciate that you're asking it in so many different ways, Loren,
22:55
because it really matters. Um, and I think that the first
22:58
thing to say is
23:01
we uh, have to tell the truth about the
23:04
way authority has
23:06
misused, been misused and gone wrong. So
23:09
I think that's part of the moment we're in for communities of
23:12
faith is we have to tell the truth. We ah, have to
23:15
tell the truth about the ways authority
23:18
has been misused and the many, many
23:21
reasons, um, individuals
23:23
rightly distrust the use of authority,
23:26
particularly in religious spaces. Um, that
23:29
doesn't mean authority isn't important
23:33
because authority is still essential.
23:36
Um, but we have to reconsider, uh,
23:39
the exercise of authority, accountability
23:42
for authority, and the role of authority within
23:45
the broader institutional structures. Um,
23:48
um, I think about authority, uh, through
23:51
the metaphor of carrying the flame. Um, in each of
23:54
our communities, somebody needs to carry the fire. Um,
23:57
fire gives warmth. Um, fire
24:00
is something that allows us to gather,
24:03
fire allows us to cook meals.
24:06
Um, it's also something that if it's misused,
24:09
it can destroy our communities very,
24:12
very quickly. I mean it's, um, you know, we're coming on
24:14
the tail ends of forest fire seasons across the
24:17
West. Um, and we know that a single
24:20
spark can decimate a forest,
24:22
that it took hundreds of years
24:25
to build. I think it's the same thing for our religious communities,
24:28
the misuse of authorities. When the
24:31
fire is set loose,
24:34
um, in a destructive way, it can destroy communities,
24:37
it can destroy institutions, it can destroy the life of
24:39
faith, but it doesn't mean we don't need
24:42
it. Um, and I think we see the need for
24:45
authority, particularly in times of a crisis,
24:48
because that directs activity, that
24:51
directs attention and that creates
24:54
the container in which people of faith are
24:57
able to find the meaning, to navigate uncertainty
24:59
and take the next step.
25:03
>> Loren: So let's let me explore some
25:05
more direct questions
25:08
here because I'm thinking about,
25:12
I'm thinking about like often
25:17
there can be, I think a question. There can almost be this sort of.
25:20
And I think especially in our context, right,
25:23
where we're so individualized as a,
25:25
broadly speaking, as our culture, there can be this real, like,
25:28
why is there the need for authority? Like
25:31
authority is either oppressive or
25:33
unnecessary. Um, but you point out in
25:36
the book that, you know, the role of
25:39
authority seems to vanish during times of
25:42
stability, but it's needed during a crisis. And
25:45
I mean, I think if anything. Right. Like
25:48
that was evident during COVID
25:50
When Covid
25:53
happened, people wanted someone
25:57
with some power to talk and to give some
26:00
answers or at least to start talking into a
26:03
microphone. Mhm.
26:06
How does that. I think that's the biggest question when I think
26:09
about, with churches. And
26:12
I'm kind of just going to talk
26:14
openly here. When I think about churches
26:17
I've led, where there's been some sort
26:20
of crisis, like a
26:23
denominational church doesn't want anything to do with the
26:25
denomination. But then
26:28
when BLEEP hits the fan, it's like we want
26:31
somebody who has some kind of cred to come talk to
26:33
us and tell us what to do. So
26:36
how does that work then, in these,
26:39
These decentralized hubs,
26:42
when a church runs into trouble, like, who do
26:45
they call? How does that. Where
26:48
do they even start?
26:50
>> Dustin: Yeah, yeah.
26:51
Uh, I think there's two ways we want to think about this.
26:54
Um, first, we want to think, uh,
26:56
about what's the relationship between
26:59
individuals and institutions, particularly in times of crisis,
27:02
because that helps us, uh, clarify what's the role of
27:05
authority. Um, and there are three typical ways
27:08
to think about institutions in times of crisis. One,
27:11
institutions, um, are across.
27:14
They're, um, a challenge to bear.
27:18
Third, second, institutions are a
27:20
catalyst. They, um, support, uh,
27:23
the new things that are emerging. Or third, institutions are
27:26
a container. Um, and, um,
27:29
I think institutions in times of crisis are actually a
27:32
container. They create this holding environment.
27:35
They create this space where
27:37
individuals can
27:39
collectively discern how to organize
27:42
and direct a common life. Um,
27:45
and as it applies to these hubs in the Pacific Northwest,
27:48
um, these aren't
27:50
deinstitutionalized forms of organizing
27:52
religious life. They're connected to institutions in a
27:55
meaningful way. They're connected to denominations. They're connected to
27:58
congregations. They're not just happening in forest and open
28:01
fields. There's still these densely social,
28:04
densely networked, um, inherently
28:06
connectional forms of organizing a common life. Um,
28:09
so as a result, what that means
28:12
is people turn first to the authority structures
28:15
that are built into their institutions. But more
28:18
significantly, they turn to the authority that is
28:21
derived from the relational connections that they have.
28:24
Because I think that's one of the things we misunderstand,
28:27
is that authority is first
28:30
and foremost derived relationally. It's not
28:33
derived professionally. It's not derived
28:35
institutionally. It's not derived because of the
28:38
position. It's derived because the way
28:41
we relate to other people
28:43
and because of the way we relate to other people. They
28:46
either can trust us or they cannot trust us.
28:49
And what these hubs are doing, they are actually
28:52
prioritizing relational fidelity and
28:54
connection and indexing that
28:57
relational fidelity and that connection to the
29:00
existing institutional structures that they inhabit.
29:03
As a result, when crisis hits,
29:06
they've done the hard work of cultivating those
29:09
connections so that they can explore the next
29:11
step. Um, I saw this beautifully, um,
29:14
actually in the aftermath of COVID Um, I had
29:17
the privilege to interview several faith leaders in the region, both before
29:20
and after Covid. Um, and one of the things,
29:23
um, I saw is that, um, they said two things.
29:26
They said, dustin, because we have been
29:29
practiced in the art of local
29:31
connection, we have this dense network already in
29:34
place. So Covid's been hard. It's been
29:36
disruptive, um, but it hasn't totally upended our life of
29:39
faith or our communities because we're connected
29:42
locally already. Secondly, uh,
29:45
um, many faith communities said, um,
29:48
we had cultivated the muscle of innovation,
29:51
so much so that when we uh, had to pivot,
29:54
when we had to change, we had
29:56
cultivated the ability to make changes and exercise
29:59
authority appropriately so that we can make the
30:02
changes our faith communities require. So you do
30:05
the pre work of cultivating authority before
30:08
crisis hits, and then when crisis hits, you're able
30:11
to carry, um, the fire in a way that's
30:14
fitting, appropriate and supports the flourishing of your faith
30:16
community.
30:17
>> Loren: Yeah, I'm glad you went into that detail
30:20
there, because that was one of the questions I was asking about
30:24
how is authority accrued now versus in the past.
30:27
So you're emphasizing relationship is how that
30:30
authority is accrued. And I'm going to think
30:32
specifically sort of to my context,
30:35
operating most commonly in like a mainline
30:38
space where there is a real
30:41
bridged authority structure of
30:46
again, depending on the denomination,
30:48
um, districts,
30:51
um, regions, conferences, judicatories.
30:55
There's a middle adjudicatory leader often or
30:57
many middle judicatory leaders. There's
31:00
national leadership. So I think that's really the
31:03
challenge. And I'm going to kind
31:06
of talk here, and you're welcome to add thoughts here,
31:09
but the challenge is, I see it for many mainline
31:12
contexts is they're operating under
31:15
this sort of old standard of
31:17
hey, we have the authority because of our
31:20
position. Uh, I mean, I won't name names here,
31:23
but I'm thinking of a specific pastor friend
31:26
I know who's like my
31:28
military person, never talks to
31:31
me, has never hardly met
31:34
me, but is running the
31:37
show to some extent.
31:40
How can
31:42
mainline leaders. I mean, is it as
31:45
simple as just like going to visit all the pastors
31:48
in all the churches?
31:53
>> Dustin: Yeah, I think, um, you know, there's two things we
31:56
want to think about here. One, um, I think we
31:58
want to humanize, um, the
32:02
systems, um, particularly these denominational systems we
32:04
inhabit and um,
32:07
uh, acknowledge the good work many people are
32:10
doing because in this moment of
32:12
denominational transition, uh,
32:16
there's a lot of stress on
32:18
our denominational systems, um,
32:21
and uh, I know many denominational
32:24
leaders, um, have very, very big
32:27
tasks just to care for a really
32:29
complex system that feels stressed for
32:32
multiple ends. So they want to humanize that,
32:35
um, and recognize that, um, there's real good
32:38
there. There's people that are serving in incredible ways,
32:41
um, and many days I think they're doing the very
32:44
best they can. It doesn't mean there
32:47
aren't practices that we can pursue that
32:50
make, um, for a more connectional and connected
32:53
system. And m. I think there's a few
32:56
practices that can help us do that. Um,
32:59
one, um, denominational leaders
33:01
have to get, uh, close to the ground
33:04
and be connected to the people they're serving.
33:08
Um, we are not serving systems. We are serving
33:10
people. Um, a dean that I know
33:13
and trust, uh, recently shared a tip on
33:16
leadership. Uh, and he said, um, I have
33:19
to spend time with my people. That's
33:22
what allows me to lead well. And I
33:25
know, um, denominational leaders don't always have
33:28
time and capacity to spend with all of their people,
33:31
given the many, many things they do. But I think a
33:34
concrete practice is, uh, to make sure you're
33:37
spending time weekly with some of the
33:39
people, um, and making
33:43
a concerted effort to be
33:46
close to the ground. Uh, the second thing we can do is
33:49
we can connect parts of our system across
33:51
silos. Um, our,
33:54
um, systems and our denominations
33:57
are built in a mode where they are intended to
34:00
operate separately and oftentimes in
34:03
silos. And one of the gifts of denominational leaders
34:06
is they have a view and they have authority to
34:09
actually connect silos across the systems.
34:12
Um, and that's one of the key functions they can
34:14
have, is they actually connect systems and then they give
34:17
the work away. Um, and that enables
34:20
the system, that enables the denomination, that enables the
34:23
connection to flourish separately
34:26
from them. Um, the third thing they can
34:29
do is, um, you know, they can, um, they
34:32
can be trustworthy. Um,
34:34
and unfortunately, um,
34:37
the default disposition for so many people
34:40
and communities will be distrust towards the system
34:43
and the denomination. Um, even if there
34:46
is a flawless record. Yeah, that is
34:49
just simply the reality. So as a result,
34:52
I think denominational and system leaders, they
34:55
have to work very, very hard,
34:57
uh, to cultivate, preserve
35:00
and protect trust at all costs.
35:03
Um, and people will trust you if they see your
35:06
face. Use video, show up
35:09
in person, be visible, because
35:11
they're going to trust your voice more than they're going to trust
35:15
a document. You got to close the
35:17
gap. Um, and then I think you also celebrate the
35:20
good. That's one of the things denominational leaders
35:23
can do, is they can be champions.
35:25
They can celebrate the good work that's happening all over the place.
35:28
They can shine light on the
35:31
beauty that's happening even when the system feels
35:34
stressed. Um, I know that's hard. I know it's
35:37
demanding, but I've seen it time and time again.
35:40
When we shine light on distress
35:42
systems, new, um, life begins to Bud up and start
35:45
to grow.
35:46
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah, that's good.
35:47
Thanks for sharing that. How then,
35:50
how then can some of these more traditional
35:53
organizational forms begin to foster
35:56
new ways of doing things? I
35:58
mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but
36:01
isn't in the book
36:04
the two main examples you referenced, they come from
36:07
existing systems? Right?
36:09
>> Dustin: Uh, existing systems and also very different systems.
36:12
>> Loren: Okay.
36:12
>> Dustin: Uh, yeah, I talk about this in the book as,
36:15
uh, kind of fixed organizational environments and
36:18
ambiguous organizational environments. You know,
36:21
the fixed would be, um, kind of more.
36:24
More like a, um, mainline
36:27
denominational system. M structures are in
36:29
place.
36:30
>> Loren: Right.
36:30
>> Dustin: There's ordination standards, uh, there's existing
36:33
funding partners, those sorts of things. Um, and the
36:36
ambiguous is more like a church planning network
36:38
where, um, it's kind of an entrepreneurial religious
36:41
community where, um, it's working
36:45
beyond existing systems to build new
36:47
systems. Um, and I think these provide
36:50
two different templates for how
36:54
leaders, um, um, at various levels
36:57
and in various systems, um, can create space
37:00
for new things to emerge. The first thing I'd say
37:03
is you have to slow down. We are moving
37:06
at a frantic pace for
37:08
both reasonable, um, and unreasonable
37:11
reasons. And the first thing we do is we have to
37:14
slow down and pay attention. Now, that also means we might need to
37:17
pray. M. Pay attention and
37:19
pray. Um, the, uh, second thing,
37:23
I think we have to do less. Uh, in
37:26
a moment of anxiety,
37:29
we, um, can believe the
37:31
myth that doing more
37:34
will somehow save our
37:37
communities, save our congregations, save our
37:40
systems.
37:40
>> Loren: I mean, this was literally every pastor during COVID It was
37:43
like, oh, I just need to do more.
37:45
>> Dustin: Exactly. Exactly. And it's literally killing us. It literally
37:48
is killing us. Um, and
37:51
we're seeing the consequences. Four years later, really good
37:53
happened. But also there was, um,
37:57
some real loss along the way. So, um, we've got to
38:00
do less. Um, and that's hard. And it takes discernment. It takes
38:02
time. Um, it takes deliberate attention to think
38:05
about what's mine to do. The, um, third thing you've got to do
38:08
is you've got to stay connected. Um, particularly in a
38:11
highly polarized and
38:13
politicized environment. Uh, you have to
38:16
work hard to stay connected,
38:19
even connected across meaningful
38:22
lines of division and disagreement.
38:25
Um, I'm convinced that the future of
38:27
faith is collaborative. And it's collaborative across
38:30
differences and across denominations
38:33
and across meaningful divisions and
38:35
disagreements. But it takes work to maintain those
38:38
connections. That's the third thing. Um, I
38:41
think the fourth and final thing is,
38:44
um, you got to stay local. You've got to listen to
38:47
what's happening in your local Community, um,
38:50
and um, not build
38:52
something if it's already there.
38:55
>> Loren: Mhm. Yeah. I love how you all
38:57
have three points. I guess that was four points there,
39:00
but very nice and concise here for me taking
39:03
notes.
39:05
Um, let me shift gears here
39:07
slightly here because I've been primarily asking from a
39:10
mainline point of view and I'd like to think that I
39:13
do have some evangelical listeners who probably
39:16
have some resistance to
39:18
authority, some resistance to
39:21
organizational trends. You write that
39:24
authority is an inescapable dimension of social and
39:27
organizational life. As we think again about
39:30
this individualized trend, what would you say
39:33
to those, you know, like those church planting
39:35
entrepreneurs, the people who want to go their own
39:38
way, sell
39:41
them on why they should. In some
39:45
respects, I don't want to use it, tie themselves down
39:47
but you know, make themselves accountable or connected to
39:50
someone when they may see it as just extra
39:53
work.
39:54
>> Dustin: Yeah, um, I'll tell a story
39:57
that I mentioned in the book. I think it's in chapter six or
40:00
seven. I um, had the privilege to learn with,
40:03
Learned from a um, kind of, you know,
40:06
international church planner leader, you know,
40:08
who's uh, you know, spent 20 years doing uh,
40:11
doing the work of starting new things and leading church planning
40:14
networks. Um and he said over time,
40:17
Dustin, I realized that
40:19
um, I needed connection, I
40:22
needed accountability. Um, and my work
40:25
would be better um, if I went
40:28
slow with others than fast
40:30
by myself. Um, so simply
40:33
I would appeal to the living witness of this one
40:36
individual, you know, who's done the work
40:39
nationally, um, internationally and
40:42
just bears witness to his lived experience
40:45
that um, he literally says we're better
40:48
together. Um, and he's convinced that
40:51
the way to do that is to be
40:54
um, connected and accountable and meaningful
40:57
ways beyond um, that one example,
41:00
I would simply say that authority um,
41:03
is an essential and
41:05
unavoidable property of life together.
41:08
Um, if you want to
41:10
cultivate the life of faith in
41:13
proximity to others, it requires
41:16
cultivating, it requires
41:18
exercising and it requires giving
41:21
away authority. I uh, think you see this in the
41:24
Book of Acts. I think you see this
41:26
throughout um, the story of scriptures. I think you see
41:29
this um, throughout the Christian tradition. I talk fairly
41:32
extensively in the book about Bonhoeffer. Um, Bonhoeffer is
41:35
a really interesting thought experiment about the
41:37
exercise of authority. Um and for Bonhoeffer,
41:40
authority is pursued both in relation
41:43
to existing religious structures, um, as
41:46
well as relationally. Um, and it's
41:49
also something that um, can
41:51
be misused. Um. Yeah, I think part of the story
41:54
of Bonhoeffer's life is actually bearing
41:57
witness to um, Certain misuses and
42:00
abuses of authority or a
42:03
failure of certain religious leaders to
42:05
actually exercise the authority that they do
42:08
have by telling the truth when
42:11
the life of faith has been compromised. So, um, I don't think you can get
42:14
around authority. I think it's necessary, I think it's
42:17
essential. Um, I think it can be misused in a
42:19
thousand different ways. Um, but it's something that we have
42:22
to figure out how to carry and steward, not something
42:25
that we can ever abdicate. Um, it's like the fire.
42:28
It's uh, like the fire we carry. Somebody has
42:31
to carry the fire. Somebody, um, has
42:34
to feel the flame. Um, and to do that
42:37
we have to figure out how to carry it, not if
42:40
we're going to carry it.
42:43
>> Loren: I'm trying to remember, Martha had a
42:46
conversation, I'm trying to remember what episode it
42:49
was with
42:51
um, Justin Anthony.
42:54
And they explored Bonhoeffer, certainly
42:57
some more from Justin Anthony's perspective. I
43:00
think he mentioned Bonhoeffer from his
43:03
perspective, he could have had
43:06
more authority. And he said no, I'm
43:09
remembering from what he said. I'm also, ah,
43:11
again my mind is buzzing with the
43:14
imagery of your fire metaphor.
43:17
Um,
43:20
I think that's so
43:22
illustrative
43:25
of.
43:30
I'm struggling for words here to put the image
43:33
into words. But I'm thinking
43:36
to your point, there seems to be
43:38
sometimes this idea like we don't need authority and the
43:41
fire can just be free.
43:45
And I think we've seen the dangers
43:48
of that. Right. Where it's not contained
43:51
or controlled or
43:53
corralled. So we might speak.
43:56
Mhm. Well, the
43:59
book is adaptive church,
44:01
collaboration and community in a changing world.
44:04
There's a lot more, I mean there's a lot more
44:07
we could have gone into. We've only really
44:10
touched on a small segment of the book, so
44:13
recommend it to check it out. Dustin's work.
44:16
Um, Dustin, let's take a quick break and we can come back with some
44:19
closing questions.
44:24
All right, we're back with Dr. Dustin Benac Thank you
44:27
for your time. Appreciate the conversation.
44:30
So some closing questions you're welcome to take as seriously or not
44:33
as you'd like to. But um, if you're Pope for a
44:35
day, how about this? How do you want to
44:38
handle your authority?
44:41
>> Dustin: Oh, uh, beautiful. I
44:43
would, uh, use it to
44:46
gather people and I think that's one of the beautiful
44:49
things that um, Pope Francis does is Pope, uh,
44:52
Francis gathers people and I think that's one
44:55
of the best, um, uses of
44:58
authority, uh, is the work of
45:00
convening and connecting, um,
45:03
because that Actually gives authority
45:06
away, uh, and it
45:08
enables local people to
45:11
cultivate connection, actually to
45:14
build relational credibility, um, and
45:17
do the work of
45:19
transformation at a local level. So I would gather as
45:22
many people as I could in a single day, um, give them
45:25
a structure of conversation and then give the work
45:28
away.
45:29
>> Loren: Yeah. Great, great. A
45:32
theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring
45:35
back to life.
45:36
>> Dustin: Yeah, that's a fantastic question. And I was,
45:39
uh, thinking about that question
45:42
this morning. And, um, I want to. Want to do a
45:45
throwback. Um, I gave an
45:47
interview, um, when I was 18 for
45:50
something. And, um, they asked a similar question.
45:53
And, uh, for some reason, I don't know why I said
45:56
Frederick Douglass. Um, don't know what I was
45:58
reading, don't know what I was thinking. Um,
46:01
but I think Frederick Douglass again today.
46:04
Um, Frederick Douglass was a change
46:06
maker. Uh, Frederick Douglass
46:08
was, um, a leader in a
46:11
complex system. Um, and Frederick
46:14
Douglass was somebody who was able
46:17
to translate,
46:19
um, the demands of
46:21
witness to his time. Um, and
46:24
I'd be delighted to learn from his work,
46:28
his words, his witness for today.
46:30
>> Loren: Yeah, that's good.
46:32
Uh, what, uh, do you think history will remember from
46:35
our current time and place?
46:38
>> Dustin: Yeah, there's what I think it will remember. And this. There's
46:41
what I hope it will remember. Good.
46:44
Um, I, um, think it will remember the,
46:46
um, impact of COVID
46:49
Um, I think it will remember a
46:52
time of political
46:54
division and upheaval and
46:57
uncertainty. I, um, hope it will
47:00
remember, um, the everyday
47:03
witness that people of faith have been pursuing
47:06
in ordinary, everyday, unseen ways and
47:08
places. I, um, hope it will remember,
47:11
uh, the vitality. Um, I hope it will
47:14
remember the, um, unseen,
47:17
often unnamed church, denomination
47:20
and religious leaders, um, that are doing the work day
47:23
in and day out of caring for their people, uh, showing
47:25
up in hospitals, marrying and burying,
47:28
uh, responding to email. You know, these aren't the
47:31
shiny, verandable, um,
47:34
celebrity like things, but like, these are things that
47:37
nourish the life of faith. And I hope
47:40
history will see and remember that everyday,
47:43
ordinary faithfulness, um, that is unseen,
47:45
uncelebrated, and oftentimes
47:48
unrecognized.
47:50
>> Loren: Um, what do you hope? I guess you've kind of
47:53
mentioned it, but. Anything else you want to say about hopes for the future
47:56
of Christianity?
47:57
>> Dustin: I'll just say I'm hopeful. I'm incredibly hopeful.
48:00
Uh, I mean, we haven't talked much about the work I do at Baylor and the program for the
48:03
future church. Uh, but one of the things we
48:06
oftentimes say is we're a harbor for Hope,
48:09
uh, we're simply trying to create the container and the
48:12
conditions for people of faith and religious
48:15
leaders to imagine a hopeful future for the
48:17
church and take the next step. So I am incredibly
48:20
hopeful about the future because the uh,
48:23
future is bright and there are people of faith doing brilliant and
48:26
beautiful work all over the place. We just need eyes to see
48:29
it.
48:30
>> Loren: Yeah, I regret that we have not had a chance to talk to
48:33
about it, but I suppose that's opportunity for future
48:35
podcasts.
48:36
>> Dustin: Let's do it. Even though, yeah, we have some
48:39
exciting things underway. We, uh, have some really good
48:42
people that we work with, um, and I love, um, to
48:45
tell their stories.
48:46
>> Loren: Well, uh, let's take a moment. Dustin
48:49
has mentioned that the book has a
48:52
discount code. It's coming to paperback.
48:54
So share all that. Share about, um, where
48:57
folks can connect with you. How can they get a copy of the book, all that
49:00
Jazz?
49:01
>> Dustin: Sure. Thanks, Loren. Um, like I said, the book
49:03
is, uh, just rolled over to paper. Um, so it's been a hardback for
49:06
two years. Just rolled into paper. Um, and there's
49:09
a discount code running throughout the fall. You, uh,
49:12
can get uh, it@, uh,
49:15
bayloruniversitypress.com and use the
49:17
discount code 17 Fall 24,
49:21
uh, for 20, 20% off and free shipping.
49:24
Um, you can also follow, uh, me and
49:27
my work online, destinythenic.com on
49:30
X, on Facebook, on Instagram,
49:32
um, and also check out the work we're doing at the Program for the Future Church
49:35
at Baylor University. Um, this is
49:38
a container, um, that is trying
49:41
to implement and
49:43
institutionalize, um, some of
49:46
the themes from the book.
49:49
Um, create space to, um, cultivate,
49:52
imagine and nurture a hopeful future for the church.
49:56
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. Well, it's been great having you on. Appreciate, uh,
50:00
the conversation. Thanks for hanging with me here
50:02
today and figuring this out. So again for our listeners,
50:05
Adaptive Church. Check it out. Check out Dustin's
50:08
work, uh, at Baylor and uh, appreciate your
50:11
time. Like I said, I always leave folks with a word of peace. So
50:14
may God's peace be with you.
50:23
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
50:26
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
50:28
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50:31
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50:33
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