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The Unconscious Life of Sexuality with Juliane Maxwald · The Trauma Therapist

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  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Thepors podcast. My name is Guimi Ferson,
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  Speaker 1: and I interview incredible people who share the story of
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  Speaker 1: how trauma has shaped their lives. And a big thank
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  Speaker 1: you for sponsoring today's episode goes to my guest and
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  Speaker 1: our sponsors. So five, four, three, two and one. All right, folks,
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  Speaker 1: welcome back to the podcast. Very excited to have as
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  Speaker 1: my guest today. Julianne Maxwell. Julianne welcome, Thank you.
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  Speaker 2: It's nice to be here.
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  Speaker 1: Appreciate that. Julianne is a licensed psychoanalyst, certified sex therapist,
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  Speaker 1: and the author of the upcoming book Psychoanalytics Sex Therapy
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  Speaker 1: Exploring the Unconscious Life of Sexuality, due out in December
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  Speaker 1: twenty twenty five. Is that date still stand?
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  Speaker 2: It is? It's December twenty ninth. Actually I have the
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  Speaker 2: actual date now, okay.
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  Speaker 1: Julian specializes in exploring how trauma shapes adult sexual expression,
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  Speaker 1: manifest as association, shame, compulsive patterns, shut down for fear
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  Speaker 1: of intimacy, and how healing can emerge through depth psychology,
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  Speaker 1: attachment work, and somatic attunement. Julian brings a unique lens
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  Speaker 1: to the intersection of trauma sexuality and the therapy relationship,
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  Speaker 1: highlighting the body as both a set of injury and
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  Speaker 1: path to recovery. Julian, Welcome. Before we get going, share
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  Speaker 1: with the listeners where you're from originally and where you
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  Speaker 1: are currently.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, originally, where I was, where I come from, like,
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  Speaker 2: where I was born, where I grew up? Great?
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  Speaker 1: Okay, from the beginning, right.
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  Speaker 2: I love it. I was conceived actually in Venezuela. My
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  Speaker 2: parents were both Catholic missionaries. They had met there and
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  Speaker 2: then they returned to the States. My father was Austrian,
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  Speaker 2: my mother American. They returned to the States before I
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  Speaker 2: was born, right before I was born, and so I
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  Speaker 2: I did some of my growing up in the Chicago
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  Speaker 2: area before we moved to the Seattle area. And I've
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  Speaker 2: been in New York City now for about twenty years. Wow, Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: which I call home.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, So let's start. How the heck does this start
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  Speaker 1: for you? This whole journey.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so. I was in art school and was
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  Speaker 2: studying photography and critical theory and loving it and realized
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  Speaker 2: that what was most interesting to me was understanding why
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  Speaker 2: people were making the art that they were making. I
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  Speaker 2: was always a person in the art studio, asking you know, well,
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  Speaker 2: why this and why that, and where did this come from?
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  Speaker 2: And really curious about my own sense of identity. And
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  Speaker 2: it's so interesting to reflect back on that time, because
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  Speaker 2: really the themes of power, identity, shame, sexuality, they were
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  Speaker 2: all there in my art. I started reading a lot
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  Speaker 2: of psychoanalytic theory and young and the process of creativity,
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  Speaker 2: and then realized I'm not really going to make a
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  Speaker 2: living being an artist, and so I kind of jumped
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  Speaker 2: very quickly into training to be a psychoanalyst, which takes
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  Speaker 2: a very long time. And so I also then started
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  Speaker 2: working very early on in addiction treatment. So I was
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  Speaker 2: studying psychoanalysis, working at agencies and addiction treatment and really
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  Speaker 2: enjoying the thinking about all the different layers that impact
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  Speaker 2: somebody's development, while at the same time learning all of
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  Speaker 2: these very practical tools to help people manage their ravings,
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  Speaker 2: managed triggers, you know, maintain their their sobriety and abstinence.
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  Speaker 2: And then also realizing obviously like so much trauma and
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  Speaker 2: addiction and and and worked in that capacity for you know, many,
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  Speaker 2: many many years, and then when I went into private
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  Speaker 2: practice full time, I started to see a lot of
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  Speaker 2: couples and did couple's training and really enjoyed that experience,
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  Speaker 2: and that led me into getting more specialized sex training
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  Speaker 2: and so and I'll also say this my own experience
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  Speaker 2: in psychoanalysis, which was wonderful and taught me so much.
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  Speaker 3: I realized that at one point.
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  Speaker 2: It wasn't it wasn't really there was a limitation to
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  Speaker 2: my my own experience in psychoanalysis. And I was in
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  Speaker 2: somewhat of a classical experience where I was on the couch,
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  Speaker 2: and I really was craving more of an interpersonal kind
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  Speaker 2: of relational experience. I was getting that in the work
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  Speaker 2: that I was doing working in the addiction agencies.
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  Speaker 3: So I kind of veered off and started.
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  Speaker 2: Started training more in a relational way and thinking more
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  Speaker 2: about like the intersubjective experience. And so, you know, all
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  Speaker 2: of these things I think have really shaped who I
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  Speaker 2: am and how I think about things, and the psychoanalysis
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  Speaker 2: and the sex therapy and the trauma and how they've
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  Speaker 2: all sort of come together for me in the way
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  Speaker 2: that I work now kind of specializing in the body
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  Speaker 2: and psychoanalysis and sex.
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  Speaker 1: Therapy a lot there. I mean, thank you for sharing
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  Speaker 1: all that. What immediately comes to my mind is you
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  Speaker 1: were your the choices you made to go, you know,
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  Speaker 1: to pursue psycho psychoanalytic theory and treatment addiction. Where there things?
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  Speaker 1: Where does that come from?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah? You know, it's interesting because Elite Atlas, who's a
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  Speaker 2: psychoanalyst and author of Emotional Inheritance and Amazing books, she
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  Speaker 2: talks about research, her own research into things that she's
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  Speaker 2: interested in as mesearch.
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  Speaker 3: And I think for me too, there was.
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  Speaker 2: I wasn't always aware of it at the time, but
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  Speaker 2: what I really found interesting about working with people who
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  Speaker 2: struggled from with addiction was just the intensity with which
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  Speaker 2: they felt things or the difficulty that.
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  Speaker 3: They had feeling things.
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  Speaker 2: And I grew up in a home where there was
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  Speaker 2: a lot of love, but we just didn't talk about
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  Speaker 2: feelings like it just you know, it wasn't We just
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  Speaker 2: didn't talk about feelings.
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  Speaker 3: And so I was the kid who was in my
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  Speaker 3: room sort.
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  Speaker 2: Of observing and thinking and analyzing and you know, figuring
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  Speaker 2: out what everyone in my family was up to. And
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  Speaker 2: so very early on, I've just been always interested in
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  Speaker 2: like how people tick and how they work and having
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  Speaker 2: an outlet for my own feelings.
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  Speaker 1: Right, But psychoanalysts. Yeah, psychon one like theory. Does it
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  Speaker 1: seem to be the natural unfolding up in that pursuit?
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  Speaker 1: Why that right?
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  Speaker 2: And that's a great question too. I think for me,
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  Speaker 2: there was this one part of me that was very
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  Speaker 2: feeling full and maybe that got expressed in my art,
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  Speaker 2: in the part of me that was creative and wanted
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  Speaker 2: to express myself. And then there was this other side
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  Speaker 2: of me that was very much like neck up, Like
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  Speaker 2: I was very much in my heads and I would
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  Speaker 2: read psychoanalytic theory like it was self help. You know.
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  Speaker 2: My undergraduate degree was in comparative history of ideas, so
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  Speaker 2: I was I've always been a little bit of a thinker.
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  Speaker 2: What has been really interesting for me about writing this
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  Speaker 2: book is finding my voice that kind of integrates both
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  Speaker 2: the emotional part of me and the thinking part of me.
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  Speaker 2: And really, you know, in all honesty, I feel like
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  Speaker 2: this is a very deep kind of integration for me
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  Speaker 2: in terms of just my own you know, personal and
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  Speaker 2: professional development that I think really mirrors what happens in
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  Speaker 2: trauma therapy, the kind of healing and the integration, the
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  Speaker 2: kind of excavating of shame, like it's it's uh there's
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  Speaker 2: a lot of parallels for me.
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  Speaker 1: Before we dive into the book, I want to ask you,
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  Speaker 1: what are some of the elements, maybe one or two
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  Speaker 1: that you that really impacted you from learning about psychoanalysis.
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  Speaker 1: Psycond animotic theory.
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  Speaker 2: Impacted me in.
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  Speaker 1: What We're Well, you said there was a point where
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  Speaker 1: you began to pursue more of a relational yeah study.
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  Speaker 1: My guess is you just didn't completely they're abandoned, you know,
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  Speaker 1: your psychoanalytic training. What were some of the things that
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  Speaker 1: you brought with you in a sense that inspired you,
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  Speaker 1: that spoke to.
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  Speaker 2: You about psychoanalysis.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: What I think, what I really love, loved and love
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  Speaker 2: about psychoanalysis is how slow like to me, the art
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  Speaker 2: of psychoanalysis is really about mindfulness. It's about slowing down.
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  Speaker 2: It's a very long process. I mean, if you're training
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  Speaker 2: to be an analyst, it's a very long process. But
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  Speaker 2: it's really about slowing down and being reflective, thinking about
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  Speaker 2: your past and the impact your family of origin had
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  Speaker 2: on you, thinking about making connections with the past and
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  Speaker 2: what might be happening in your present life and your relationships,
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  Speaker 2: and just slowing slowing down, really slowing down. What was
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  Speaker 2: interesting for me is I found that I got to
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  Speaker 2: a place in my own analysis where it felt too safe,
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  Speaker 2: and it almost felt like I was allowed to kind
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  Speaker 2: of dissociate. You know, I'm on the couch, I'm in
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  Speaker 2: my thoughts, I'm thinking these things and making these interesting lanes.
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  Speaker 3: But there was this feeling that there was a relational.
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  Speaker 2: Piece that was missing. I didn't know that at the time.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, this is, you know, in retrospect, but I
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  Speaker 2: think that's what really pushed me forward and what got
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  Speaker 2: me really interested in working with couples and learning more
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  Speaker 2: about that relational system.
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  Speaker 1: What excited you about that? I liked working with couples too,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, talk to us about that.
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  Speaker 2: I think in the same way that I really enjoyed
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  Speaker 2: working and I do enjoy working with people with as.
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  Speaker 2: There's a kind of intensity that I find that people
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  Speaker 2: have emotional intensity when working with addiction, and there's certainly
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  Speaker 2: emotional intensity in couples therapy, the high conflict couples, but
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  Speaker 2: even the conflict avoidant couples.
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  Speaker 3: I think one of my skills is that I can
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  Speaker 3: I'm very.
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  Speaker 2: Good at at registering, picking up on feelings that are
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  Speaker 2: having a hard time being expressed or feelings that are
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  Speaker 2: being expressed, you know, in an amplified way, and I
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  Speaker 2: enjoy the challenge.
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  Speaker 3: Like to me, I like to get in there.
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  Speaker 2: It's why trauma work for me is so meaningful too,
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  Speaker 2: because I like to get in there and feel like
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  Speaker 2: I can withstand the pain, the confusion, the hurt. It's
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  Speaker 2: very rewarding for me.
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  Speaker 1: Sue, the topic were subject of sex, sexuality draws you
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  Speaker 1: talk about that, how you're working with couples, and my
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  Speaker 1: guess is there could have been many avenues you might
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  Speaker 1: have pursued why that.
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  Speaker 3: I think what I found was.
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  Speaker 2: And this probably goes back to my childhood and sort
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  Speaker 2: of for whatever reason, being able to understand what isn't
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  Speaker 2: being spoken, you.
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  Speaker 3: Know, in the family.
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  Speaker 2: And it was just so obvious to me that there
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  Speaker 2: were big gaps of things that we weren't talking about.
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  Speaker 2: And some of that just had to do with my
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  Speaker 2: own discomfort at the time around you know, talking about sex,
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  Speaker 2: talking openly about sex, being curious about sex.
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  Speaker 3: But I've found that it kept coming up as a theme.
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  Speaker 2: And when I started to when I as I was
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  Speaker 2: doing my training and develop my own more kind of
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  Speaker 2: robust comfort just talking about sex and getting curious about sex.
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  Speaker 2: What I found was it allowed us to drop emotionally
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  Speaker 2: into deeper places, you know, where there were really pockets
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  Speaker 2: of it was about sex, but it really wasn't about sex.
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  Speaker 2: It was about power and vulnerability and disappointment and shame
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  Speaker 2: and you know, all kinds of old relational wounds, whether
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  Speaker 2: from family of origin or you know, or just the
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  Speaker 2: normal kind of developmental and relational bruising that happens in
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  Speaker 2: any relationship, because you know, you're with a different person
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  Speaker 2: who can't read your mind and who doesn't understand you completely.
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  Speaker 2: So it just bes so portal.
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  Speaker 3: For me, It became a portal that just held so.
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  Speaker 2: Much meaning and so much power, and also noticing the
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  Speaker 2: anxiety and the fear and the way it would show
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  Speaker 2: up in people's bodies as well.
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  Speaker 1: Let me just remind everyone I'm speaking with Julian Maxwell.
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  Speaker 1: Her book is called Sexanalytic Sex Therapy, Exploring the Unconscious
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  Speaker 1: Life of Sexuality. So let's talk about the book. Let's
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  Speaker 1: get in here. How does that unfold? How do you
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  Speaker 1: get to the point where I want to write this book,
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  Speaker 1: I need to write this book. How did it come about?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I was I've always kept one foot in
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  Speaker 2: the psychoanalytic camp, and I have a great relationship with
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  Speaker 2: the institute that I trained in, And I was also
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  Speaker 2: then at this point done with my training in sex
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  Speaker 2: therapy and had really established a nice relationship with the
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  Speaker 2: institut where I did my sex therapy training. I've always
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  Speaker 2: been an integrative thinker, so I started running workshops at
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  Speaker 2: my psychoanalytic institute. I think they were called Talking about Sex,
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  Speaker 2: and it was basically, how do we integrate sex therapy
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  Speaker 2: with psychoanalysis and psychoanalysis with sex therapy and what does
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  Speaker 2: that look like? And how is clinicians can we manage
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  Speaker 2: our own countertransference my psychoanalytic training, we learned a lot
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  Speaker 2: about aggression, not so much about sex, and so it
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  Speaker 2: was the workshop was very popular. I ran them for
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  Speaker 2: a couple of years, and an editor at Routledge reached
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  Speaker 2: out to me and somehow saw the flyer the blurb
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  Speaker 2: for the workshop and just asked me if I was
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  Speaker 2: interested in writing that She thought there would be a
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  Speaker 2: lot of interest in this topic. It just happened to
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  Speaker 2: coincide with me, you know, doing more workshops and really
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  Speaker 2: wanting to write about about this topic in particular. So
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  Speaker 2: it was perfect timing and opportunity that I you know,
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  Speaker 2: happily accepted.
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  Speaker 1: So and again the topic is psychoanalytic theory and talking
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  Speaker 1: about sex.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, okay, the book is really what the book does,
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  Speaker 2: is it? The book is really it's a book of cases.
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  Speaker 2: Each chapter is a case and four therapists. It's fourth therapist. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: It's designed for therapists, either sex therapists who want to
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  Speaker 2: understand depth psychology a little bit more, or psychoanalytically trained
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  Speaker 2: therapist or any therapist really who wants uh more understanding
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  Speaker 2: of how issues can show up in sexuality and how
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  Speaker 2: you can begin to work with those issues and.
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  Speaker 3: Look at them with a little more nuance.
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  Speaker 2: That it's not just maybe about interrectile you know issue,
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  Speaker 2: or an orgasm issue or desire discrepancy, but there's a
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  Speaker 2: lot of relational issues that often are built into sex
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  Speaker 2: and sexuality problems.
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  Speaker 1: All right, can you give us kind of an overview
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  Speaker 1: and example of what we're talking about here?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah?
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  Speaker 1: What does it look like?
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  Speaker 2: Sure?
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  Speaker 3: Well, I'm thinking if of a couple, for example.
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  Speaker 2: Where there's a desired discrepancy or where there's a mismatched libido,
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  Speaker 2: like where one person, you know, might really have a
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  Speaker 2: kinky erotic template. You know, they might have like king fantasies,
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  Speaker 2: and the other partner who just you know, isn't aroused
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  Speaker 2: by it or feels very turned off by it. And
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  Speaker 2: so what do these couples do? You know, Oftentimes they're
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  Speaker 2: either fighting about it or they're trying to convince each other,
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  Speaker 2: you know why one person is right, one person is wrong.
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  Speaker 2: They're maybe avoiding talking about it. One person might step
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  Speaker 2: out of the relationship, you know, to to have the
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  Speaker 2: experience that they're not having, you know, that they're really
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  Speaker 2: longing for. And so, you know, a couple is oftentimes
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  Speaker 2: comes in with a crisis and they don't know how
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  Speaker 2: to begin to even talk about this. And so.
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  Speaker 3: What I do is I come in.
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  Speaker 2: And I provide a lot of psycho education in the beginning,
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  Speaker 2: just sort of normalizing how nuanced sex really is, and
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  Speaker 2: and we begin to sort of unpack and get curious
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  Speaker 2: about what the difference is for example, and what you know,
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  Speaker 2: like a particular kink fetish might mean for somebody. You know,
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  Speaker 2: we really go back, we do a full kind of
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  Speaker 2: sexual history assessment, like tell me how sex and affection,
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  Speaker 2: you know, what did you see in your family of origin.
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  Speaker 2: You know, what was your pre adolescent experience with your body,
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  Speaker 2: for example, what happened in adolescence as you were discovering
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  Speaker 2: your sexuality. And you begin to see real themes, like
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  Speaker 2: real patterns. You know, one person might might come into
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  Speaker 2: the relationship with a tremendous amount of shame, for example.
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  Speaker 3: That's really inhibiting them from just trying.
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  Speaker 2: New things or you know, or or being interested in sex,
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  Speaker 2: or even giving themselves permission to have pleasure.
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  Speaker 3: In their life.
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  Speaker 5: So it's that's a I mean, as you're talking, you know, well,
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  Speaker 5: I'm just thinking.
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  Speaker 1: So much of this oftentimes isn't even right, so subconscious, Right,
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  Speaker 1: we get into a relationship, you know, we're sexually attracted
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  Speaker 1: this person, and then maybe we're going along and going along,
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  Speaker 1: and then things start to unfold or unravel, and then
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  Speaker 1: you start if you're lucky, you come to someone like
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  Speaker 1: you and are able to start talking about this, and
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  Speaker 1: then you start looking at all this stuff and it's
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  Speaker 1: like a whole onion peel.
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  Speaker 2: Right, that initial sexual attraction which is so wonderful and intoxicating,
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  Speaker 2: and you know, after a few years, right, it starts
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  Speaker 2: to like wane and then you get married, you move
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  Speaker 2: in together, you have children, you know, and and it
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  Speaker 2: becomes very complicated to to get back to those places
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  Speaker 2: and uh and too, you know, and to just realize
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  Speaker 2: like how how complex it really is, like that there
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  Speaker 2: is so much unconscious kind of material that goes into sex.
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  Speaker 2: I think of sex when we begin, when we begin
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  Speaker 2: to start exploring sex, it's like exploring dreams. It's just
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  Speaker 2: this portal that contains so much of like our hopes,
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  Speaker 2: our dreams, our ways of wanting to be viewed, our
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: ways of wanting to be desired, our sense of self worth,
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: of validation of confidence. Like there's so much that goes
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  Speaker 2: into it that it's.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and then and also with that, what how
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  Speaker 1: are we feeling viewed by our culture? What's culturally accepted
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  Speaker 1: or not?
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  Speaker 2: Yes, I work in New York City, and so I
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  Speaker 2: work with a lot of couples from a whole variety
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  Speaker 2: of different backgrounds and cultures. And that's also something that
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  Speaker 2: brings people into my office is you know, somebody's religious background,
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  Speaker 2: cultural background, you know, is very different than their partners,
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  Speaker 2: and it really collides in the bedroom in a variety
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  Speaker 2: of different ways.
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  Speaker 1: That's a very evocative image and a great image collides
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  Speaker 1: in the bedroom. So how when you the process of
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: becoming certified sex therapist? Just the the title sex therapist,
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: What is sex therapists do?
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: Right? So a sex therapist is always a licensed professional, right,
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: So it's somebody is either a social worker or a psychologist,
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: a psychoanalyst, a marriage and family therapist who wants to
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: then get additional training in sex therapy. And so when
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: you for the training and sex therapy, you're you're looking
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: you're being taught a lot of different things. I mean,
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: you're being taught anatomy and physiology and and and you know,
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: the biological component to arousal and desire and all that.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: But then you're also looking at the cultural impact, the
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: societal impact, the you know, the the environmental impact of
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: sex and sexuality and the messages that we get about that.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: So there's a whole variety of areas. I mean, you know,
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: ethics you're looking at There's just a whole variety of
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: different domains that you were getting trained in. And then
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: another big part of it also is just you going
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: through the process of understanding your own sexual development and
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: becoming more comfortable exploring and getting curious about sex and
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: sex related issues, because most clinicians didn't have much of
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: that in their formal education where sex was talk about openly,
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: and it can feel really uncomfortable for people unless they've
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: also gone through the process where there has just been
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: a lot of talking and exploring and understanding and unpacking
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: their own sexual development history.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: What was one of your goals with the book?
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: That's a great question.
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: I don't think I had a goal when I wrote it.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: I think other than it feeling like a big project
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: that I wanted to do.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: Well, let me let me rephrase that. Then, what was
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: the the impetus to write it?
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't think I had a goal going into it,
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: but I knew, oh, this is such an area that
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: I'm interested in and an area that I've noticed a
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: lot of people are interested in. A lot of therapists,
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: you know, will come to me.
• 26:35
  Speaker 6: For supervision or you know, or or like, I don't
• 26:38
  Speaker 6: have a shortage of people coming to me wanting to
• 26:41
  Speaker 6: talk about their sex lives and trying to understand, you know,
• 26:44
  Speaker 6: what's what's going on here.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: And so I knew that there was a real interest
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: in hunger for you know, this kind of material and
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: I think that the cases that I talk about are
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: just there relatable cases. You know.
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: This is this is it's it's a it's an area
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: of our lives that weird, in a weird way, is
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: on public display because we're kind of over sexualized, you know,
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: in terms of a culture, but we don't really talk
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: about it in.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: Any kind of meaningful way, right, you know, And it's
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: so layered, there's so much that goes into it.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, wow, all right. So the book is called
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: again Psychoanalytics Sex Therapy, Exploring the Unconscious Life of Sexuality.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: Uh, and I have if I can. So that's of course,
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: that's a print book that's coming out in December. And
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: then what I realized was, Okay, this is a great
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: book for clinicians and therapists, but I wanted to write
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: something for the general public. And so I wrote a
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: second manuscript, which I have turned into just a it's
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: an e book because I wanted it to be very
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: accessible and you know, and so it's it's it's an ebook.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: It's kind of.
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: In production right now. And that is really for the general.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: Public, which is basically a series of exercises, a series
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: of education to help couples and individuals just begin to
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: talk about and understand their own relationship to their sexuality.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: Awesome, Okay, how do people access that?
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: That will be available on my website, probably within the
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: next month or two.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: Okay, and let people know what that website is.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's www. Dot juliannmaxwelld dot co.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: Dot com. Okay, we'll have that link up here at
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: the show notes page at the Trauma Devers Podcast dot com. Julianne. Awesome,
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: appreciate you intense subjict matter, but so I think exciting
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: and firing for a lot of people out there. Thank you,
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: Appreciate you. All right, we'll be in touch, Okay, take care, bye,
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: god bye.