Latest / Psyched For Sanity / Episode 33 - Child Development: Ages 10–12

Transcript

Episode 33 - Child Development: Ages 10–12 · Psyched For Sanity

• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to Psych for Sanity.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: I am one of your hosts, Dr.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Brendel Doss.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a licensed psychologist specializing in forensic psychology, trauma treatment assessment, and geriatric psychology.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm Dr.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Tara McKelvey Parker.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm also a licensed clinical psychologist.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: I specialize in assessing and treating complex trauma and attachment wounds from childhood.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: And we are doing another child development episode.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Woo-hoo.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I have been thinking a lot about the um ages three to five episode because that's where my daughter is.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: And she is fully immersed in this pretend play piece that's so common in three to five.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I'm so excited.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm happy we did the episode because some of the things that she says may otherwise have been concerning problematic.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like and so the other night she told me when she woke up from sleep um after like, you know, nighttime or whatever, that two sharks came into her room.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, and um they had a tea party.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, that's nice of them.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: And they played dress up and they helped her sleep.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I would whatever helps them sleep.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's so interesting because she's actually terrified of sharks, which is also very common, like four-year-old fear.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so she's sort of, I think, working through something in her brain about sharks.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: There are these like things she's scared of that show up and she plays with them, and they like help her sleep, and it's kind of like she's working through this fear of like sharks or something, but through this, you know, like pretend.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and she's been like obsessed with Buzz Lightyear too, like superheroes.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Of all the ones, though, Buzz.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, first she really liked Jesse.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's more in there.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: And she wore her Encanto dress with her pink, glittery cowgirl boots to school for like three days.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then she like decided she wanted to be Buzz Lightyear, who she calls Buzz Light, Buzz Light.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: And apparently that sounds that sounds concerning similar to a certain beer product, which we're not gonna name because we're not sponsored by them.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: And Buzz Light Buzz Light can turn into different things.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think she's like fused Maui with like Buzz Lightyear, you know, Maui from Moana, he can like turn into things, and she also likes Moana, so it's just been really cute, you know, with all the pretend stuff.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, my my pretend play at my house is um a little different, it's a little different, and also like out of the field because we go to church occasionally.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: We're not, you know, we don't go every weekend.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um but my children will be heard upstairs whispering to each other like they're in the scene of a murder mystery or like a British detective show because they are looking for a chance.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this is actually just really though makes a lot of sense for you.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: But does it though?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think you've yes.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: They're looking for clues from Jesus, and that is weird.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because I we there's no we talk about our faith and things like that, but also it's really like it's a weird mishmash.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm kind of like Yeah, I guess, but the whole British drama clue, like Sherlock.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think I've actually said that you look like Sherlock Holmes on this show before.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: It actually really fits.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's adorable.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: I would love if I got permission to wear hats on the show.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to get permission to wear hats, but I would love to talk to HR about that.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, talk to HR.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we're in the earlier stages of development with our kiddos, but we're talking about a stage which we both are dreading.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I dread every stage.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I'm dreading.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know that I'm dreading, but I am just endlessly sort of surprised slash not surprised by how emotional kids are supposed to be and how challenging things are supposed to be.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I think this stage is gonna come with some some of its own challenges.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: So we're talking about 10 to 12.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: 10 to 12, yeah.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: So what are some of the like the big shifts that happen?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it's pre-adolescence and things are changing rapidly in the brain and body in this time.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, puberty often begins around this time.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes even at nine for some girls, depending on different factors genetically and otherwise.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: The prefrontal cortex is maturing a lot at this time.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so with that comes a lot of skill development.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um and also there is sort of um this significant brain pruning that happens around this time.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: So lots of changes.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: We're still, you know, six to nine was inferiority versus industry.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: Am I capable?
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: Can I do this?
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: So we're still in that developmental period technically um till like around 12 is when we start getting into identity versus role confusion.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Which is who am I?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: Who am I?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: What do people think of me?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: So these when we talk about these developmental periods, again, we're talking about these key like core developmental tasks that are needing to be met.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so we're kind of finishing up again this industry versus inferiority.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: So we're still developing skills like friendship skills.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: We're still sort of like seeing more autonomy and independence emerging.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: A lot more kind of demands for it too, like a yearning for it, really.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and and it being like necessary because we're school is getting more challenging, hobbies and you know, things like that.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: So we're still seeing old, you know, when when you listen to the six to nine episode, many of the same things are still occurring in this developmental um phase, but we should be advanced in a lot of these skills, more advanced, right, than we were six to nine.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: The way I would think about it is like is you know, I love a metaphor.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: You do love a metaphor.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the cake, the recipe has been mixed together, and the the the cake has been baked, and now we're just putting on the icing.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good one.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Did you just come up with that like in the moment?
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: Dude, 100%.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: You just come up with these like in the moment when you're doing therapy too, don't you?
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: You're just like, I'm really good.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: Please don't.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: You are pretty good.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: But please don't sound bite that.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's not how I feel internally.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I know.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: But it is it is the finishing touches, is what made me think of it.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Inferiority, you know, infor inferiority.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: Inferiority.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's a hard one.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: Inferiority versus industry.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: Industry, yes.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's an important time to give them more control over their experience.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think more six to nine is we're still giving them the building blocks.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and parents are still really managers, they're still way more in charge of things, right?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: They should be in terms of hierarchical structure.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Parents are really still, you know, kind of managing and and controlling more of what kids are doing.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: And um, 10 to 12, we start wanting, you know, we saw this a little with six to nine, parents sort of needing to become more coach coaches, like kind of help them think through things and build skills.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: And but now this is like really necessary.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Highly necessary.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: This is a really pivotal period for development of, you know, can I handle things?
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: Can I figure things out?
• 7:21
  unknown: Right.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: So like you said, am I capable?
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so parents, you know, are needing to really shift into asking more questions, like really putting responsibility back on their kiddo to figure out how to solve problems independently.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Which develops critical thinking skills, critical thinking skills, exactly.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, they're really, really getting to a point where they can really see multiple viewpoints and conflict and things, which is really cool, but they very helpful.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: Still need, you know, some coaching around that.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think so and so is feeling?
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: Huh?
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: Why why do you think so-and-so did that?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like what, you know, what could you have done?
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: That kind of stuff.
• 7:57
  unknown: Yeah.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like what is the you know, understanding that more connectedly than they do at six, eight, nine, I think.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so in terms of cognitive development, we certainly have a lot more of this kind of logical thinking.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, cause and effect.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and in in that same realm, they're much better at planning, at organization, and uh, you know, organizing their own homework to a degree.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this doesn't mean I don't think we want to give the assumption that they're like great and done with this.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's more like building a pyramid too, where you're like layering up and we're getting higher up the pyramid.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: And they're gonna be able to do that.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, importantly, um, Dr.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: Joss is she's talking about executive function, and executive function is controlled by the prefrontal cortex in the brain.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so at this point in time, like we mentioned at the beginning, the prefrontal cortex is really developing, but it doesn't finish developing until 20s.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Mid to late 20s, guys.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's research shows it's later for men than women.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: Average for men is 25 to 27.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Women, it's I think it's 23 to 25.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: And this is the average, which means there's a range.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: So when we talk about the things that the prefrontal cortex controls, like executive function, um, so that is attention, planning, organization, um switching attention, switching attention, emotion regulation is technically in this category and controlled by the prefrontal cortex, inhibition, inhibition, decision making.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, all of these things kids at 10 to 12 are better at, right, but they are still very much developing these skills, as Dr.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: Doss says.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: We don't see like a, you know, really a finishing till 20s.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: So they, you know, kids still really need a lot of help with structure and routine and developing skills to plan and organize and uh regulate their emotions and things like that.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: We're still really.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: I want to make sure we also talk about in this realm like the synaptic pruning thing, because I think it's so cool.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's yeah, and kind of confusing.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, I think confusing, but this is this age, 10 to 12 is I heard it's like a brain bridge to the next thing when there's tons of like neural development.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's actually a really important period, 10 to 12, for this reason.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, there's like a it's like a significant brain reorganization.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: So connections in your brain, synaptic kind of connections in your brain that are not used very often, right, sort of go on the back burner.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: The brain's not really interested in investing a lot of energy into neural connections that are not used.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: Or reinforced.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Or reinforced.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if a if a kid, you know, has historically played the piano, for instance, and they kind of stop practicing during this age period, um, it's just gonna be a lot harder.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like they'll never be able to learn the piano or get back on, but it's gonna be rusty and it's gonna be harder.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a forest path.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if one's traversed often, it's smooth and it's broad and it's easy.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: Look at you with a metaphor out of nowhere, right?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Look at you.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: I learned from the best.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and if it's, you know, if it's not, right, it's overgrown.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: So it just becomes harder.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: So at this period, practice is really important.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever is being reinforced is going to strengthen in the brain and the skills are going to become even more efficient.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the opposite will happen if not.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a great way to kind of look at it.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: What you know, the forest path that's walked and traversed, like you said, more often is going to have more clear, more, more direct, more easy, you know, to Yes.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: This is why it's so important that parents are like acting like coaches and like really kind of reinforcing skill development and you know, with executive functioning, having like, you know, the just practicing this stuff, right?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: Just practicing it.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um what other parts of this area I think are different?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think I was and I was surprised by this in terms of the emotion aspect.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: This is a really interesting period where kids are always kind of watching how we react and respond.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: But it didn't really I was surprised to learn in our research that this is a really big time when they are watching how we emotionally respond to everything.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Your face.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's true.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: It was I was like, oh, I've got five years, then I'm yeah, this is early.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's like, okay, we gotta like get our stuff together because they're really what they're really watching at this period.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: They're like really aware of their surroundings.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: They're much more aware of others than just themselves.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because of the multiple viewpoints, because of the cognitive development, they are not just self-focused.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: We're starting to become other focused too in a much more significant way.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, in terms of emotion regulation at this period of time, you know, the way that they're learning how to cope with their emotions and express their emotions really comes from how you're doing it, what they're seeing you do.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: So we want, you know, to encourage parents to practice healthy, healthy coping skills, healthy emotion regulation skills as best as possible.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this is also with emotion, you know, emotions around this time.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's another period where emotions are really intense.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um much more intense than people.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I I mean, you'll, you know, you kind of hear about the pre-adolescent adolescent hormones.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: There definitely is hormonal change during this time, but there's also brain changes that make a child much more emotional.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Their emotional centers and their reward centers in their brain are really active during this time.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it's much much more active than what the prefrontal cortex can handle.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like having a really strong accelerator without the brakes.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: So even though they can think logically and they can think about consequences, right?
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: And they know if they, you know, do that thing, they may get in trouble.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: There's they get so the the reward system is so active that they're like, meh, I don't care.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to do that thing that I know I don't need to do, even if I'm gonna get in trouble.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: So what struck me was just, you know, because I think kids this age can start fooling parents into believing that they don't quite need as many boundaries or as much structure.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: We're also telling parents, I think, to give them more independence.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: To get more, and this is where it's tricky.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: It gets really hard.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think, yes, there's that push-pull power struggle.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: We're sort of getting there again because it's another period where kids are, you know, they're yes, they're pushing for autonomy and responsibility and you want to give it to them, but they still need you to say, hey, honey, you have a test tomorrow, and we're not gonna play video games right now.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna study, and then once we get done, you can play video games.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: They need you to be able to impose the structure and set the boundaries for them still.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that imposing those structures and boundaries is important, and I really think this is a huge period.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think it even starts maybe a smidge before maybe like eight, nine, but definitely ten to twelve.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: I really think this is a really great developmental period specifically for kids to learn how to fail.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think, and I preach this to the parents I work with of kids this age, or even kids that are older, to be honest with you.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: So much can be learned by failing because it's called learning and not knowing.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: And if we don't experience some level of failure, I'm not saying go out and make your kids fail.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what I'm saying.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: What I'm saying is don't prevent or protect from logical consequences of their choices, as long as they're within safe means.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to explain what a logical consequence is?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh a logical consequence um is, for example, um, if I uh don't go to bed early the night before we podcast, and I don't set an alarm and I don't, you know, make sure everything I need is prearranged, a consequence may be that I'm late, that I miss my that I don't have an alarm, and then I'm not prepared and ready, and that we're late to start the podcast.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: That didn't happen today.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: But the logical consequences is the reasonable response to a behavioral choice.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: There can be some good logical consequences.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like thinking of, you know, going back to the example I gave about the homework, right?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, maybe the kid sort of hastily prepares for the exam and you know, studies because they are told to, because they want to get to that video game.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: And they maybe don't do as well on that test as they wanted to, or their view parents want, or as good as they could have, you know, done.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like if they were really, you know, doing what they needed to do.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so logical consequence is they don't do well.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so next time, you know, maybe there's a different study plan or they have to live with the consequences of their grade.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so hard to um watch our kids suffer or to have challenging experiences in life.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I would much rather my ch my children experience the consequences of their choices when they're younger, under the age of eighteen.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: Before they when they're out on their own and supposed to be losing a job or when they're, you know, getting behind on some kind of major payment for a car or something else.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then experiencing those consequences.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, much bigger, much more conscious.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: Where you can't always like we cannot prevent life from happening to our children.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: So how do we help them deal with the life that that they're gonna live?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, during this time, independence and responsibility, right?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like is important, but we want to, you know, we we talk about expectations.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about expectations in our last episode.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: We want to have realistic expectations and allow mistakes and gradually give them more responsibility that's age appropriate with as much sort of coaching as needed.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: Coaching but not managing, exactly, coaching but not managing.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like if there's a mistake involved, right?
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: What could you do differently next time, honey?
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to get a 70, what can you do?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's a super big bummer.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what's important to you, sweetheart?
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because this is when values start to emerge, when we start to really notice what's important to us.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: What do I care about?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, like you could have a child who is not super into academic achievement, potentially, right?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so you kind of really have to talk to them.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: What's important to you?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: Do you is, you know, is school important?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Is it not?
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it is you they have to go to school and they have to do legally their best, and you know, but like some kids are not do their best.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you want them to do their best.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: We would like them to do their best, but that's when you start kind of figuring what is that for your child and what is important to your child.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so then where do you meet them in terms of assistance to sort of I think of like successive approximation?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, where is your child and what do they need to just be challenged?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: A smidge, right?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: Depending on what their good enough is and what they're interested in.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: So does that make sense?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: It does.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think one thing we haven't talked about is the the social experience in this area, which I think is huge because friendships come to mean like everything, it feels like emotionally for these kids.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yes, definitely.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: And you're gonna see it even more in adolescence where it's a preview, we're not really even you know, they're just like peace out, you know, they don't they want to just spend all their time with their friends, but right definitely, you know, six to nine, that age period, we started to see more like interest and more, you know, friends becoming more, more important.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: But now we're really continuing to see friendships being super important and more based on emotional connection and not on common interests or like interests.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: So six to nine, you know, year old kids are gonna be friends because they both like my little pony or the color blue, or playing basketball.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, or they live on the same street.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, right?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: So this is similar interest.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's also like super common when kiddos start like friendships, like childhood friendships start potentially maybe, you know, breaking off because you're no longer just friends because you live on the same street.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: Now you're friends because you have an emotional connection.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and that emotion is very powerful.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: So friendship ruptures or conflict, I feel like the world's gonna end for these 10 to 12 year olds.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, really big, really enormous, super, you know, still we talked about this with ages six to nine, but we just see it continuing.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Just really sensitive to rejection, you know, really wanting to fit in massive.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think, you know, just hearkening back to why I wanted to do these episodes.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think if, you know, my child was having these kinds of concerns, I might be a little worried, right?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: I might be Are they being too dramatic?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Are they too emotional or something like that?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or like is something wrong, you know?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's just really it's been very helpful to do these, and it's important to remember that like suffering is part of the human condition.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: There's your there's your there's your clip.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's my existential crisis of the morning so early.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's like it just feels like suffering is inevitable, right?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Our kids are they're just going, we want to fit in and they're just going to have social struggles, and it's all super normal.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's when we want to not panic, right?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: And really coach them into figuring out, you know, who is important to them.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: What do they want to do?
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: How are they feeling?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: How do you think their friend was feeling?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what do you think you could do differently?
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: How, you know, what do you think so-and-so needs to feel better?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: What do you need to feel better around conflict resolution and also even just accepting a friendships change and accepting really hard's change, yeah.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: Or if someone's being mean, it might be about them and not necessarily about you.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that's exactly that.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: Is it so important not to rescue, diminish, or avoid the emotions there in that point?
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, or to, you know, like me again, like catastrophize and think something's wrong and I must do something to solve this, you know.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually very uh super typical and super normal.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I found that to be kind of reassuring as we were talking through this.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: Speaking about intense feelings, we've talked about emotion a little bit.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: What other things about emotion are important during this age?
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: So emotion.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Become so they're big again.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: We had a little bit of a lull period in six to nine in smidge.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: So they're they're they're big, massive.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they become much more complex.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: So we see more complex emotional experiences like pride, jealousy, jealousy, um, you know, shame, embarrassment.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Even rage.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it just becomes more more complex, and kids can talk about their feelings much more.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: And by this point, because the prefrontal cortex is emerging, we do have more neurological capacity to manage or regulate emotion.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but they still really need help with modeling, like you were talking about earlier, like making sure that you're trying your best to model healthy coping skills around your emotions.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, coaching, just coaching and practicing, you know, here when we talked about that brain pruning, yeah, practicing these coping skills becomes even more important.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: Reinforce the past you want because we want to reinforce the past that we want.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: So um that's what I think about in terms of emotion regulation for this age.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: For tied to emotion is just, I think, which is kind of tied also to cognition.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: Interestingly enough, is like anxieties and fears follow that same line of thinking where it goes from really concrete to abstract fears and worries and anxieties.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, like my daughter, you know, she's scared of sharks.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: And concrete fears of snakes and monsters.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: This is very concrete.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, by the time they get to 10 to 12, they're worried about fitting in.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: They're worried about belonging.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: They're worried about world events.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: World hunger.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Or they have existential questions, like I, you know, is you know, what's the what's the human condition?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't know.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: More connective to like since they're since their worldview is now multi-view, they can they can they can consider their perspective and others, they're realizing, oh my gosh, my parents are gonna die someday.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: They might have lost a grandparent, potentially, who knows?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's a lot more like other awareness, and with that other awareness comes other anxiety, I would say.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so again, like the worry and anxiety is just part of the human condition.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm that's what I'm realizing.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: And our turning this into an existential episode.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that was part of the notes.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: And our kids, they apparently it's a very it's very normal and common to be to be worried, although, you know, I you it could, I guess, be extra to, you know, we want to think about when to get support, right?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: If they're if it's like always ask yourself, you know, is it pervasive?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning, are we seeing anxiety in multiple settings?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, is it sort of um impacting functioning again?
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like, is it getting in the way of sleep?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: Is it getting in the way of eating?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: Is it getting in the way of concentrating?
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, are we seeing like, you know, emotional dysregulation past the point of actually being able to calm down for long periods of time?
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: So with anything in these episodes, you want to be asking those kinds of questions, um, you know, to kind of ascertain where your kiddos falls on the where they fall, yeah.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: Is this is this what they're supposed to be battling?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: Or is it more along the lines of they just need to be able to get me my support to go through it?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: You're right, right, right.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Or do we need, yeah, do we need like more support from other places or people or you know, therapists and uh executive functioning coaches, for instance?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think about with all these different areas, um, in terms of kind of wrapping up this time period that we're talking about, um I think we covered most of them.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think so.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the highlights.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think we're really gonna see some more significant changes at our next next developmental period.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll cover identity versus role confusion, which is starting right around 12-ish.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like the 12 age is sort of a transition between these two developmental periods.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a brain bridge nearly too.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: So we're kind of like, you know, getting into identity versus role confusion sometime around 12, and we'll cover that more thoroughly next time.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we'll cover that in our next child episode.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I think, um, well, what are you taking away from this period that awaits both of us in parenthood?
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, as I've said, human suffering is just the human condition.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I've I've certainly this is like literally after doing three of these child development episodes and every single one of them talking about how our kids are just gonna be insecure and anxious um and like struggle and like it's all normal.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, okay.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that it help it really helps me feel less anxious.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: I see.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because then I'm like, Okay, uh all right, girl, like, yeah, you're sad, I get it, it sucks, and I don't need to be freaked out about this meaning something about my child, which is again, it's incredibly reassuring to talk about.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a a help a good reminder, um, to really make sure and manage our own emotion and what what I'm taking away is like we really need to manage our emotions and let them experience this process without us getting away in the way.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe we have a hard time dealing with failure or we have a hard time with an emotional experience or a social experience as best we can.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: I guess as a good reminder to like stay out of their developmental path.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I th I I genuinely believe in you know things being child led to a degree, right?
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: We want them to fail, we want them to lead when they can, we want them to make mistakes, we want them to just sort of develop their own little personalities in their own little way, but you know, providing the guidance and if we continue to manage and not let coaching happen.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: If we are so uncomfortable and watching their failure that we cannot let them, then that that's what I mean by we need to get out of the way.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: We need to manage our challenges emotionally or socially and what or what have you around these topics in order to allow their development to occur.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think so.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's what I'm trying to take away.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, cool.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: And as with all of them, I'm not looking forward to this period.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're dreading it.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: I I I'm feeling very essential and full of dressing.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm feeling reassured right now, actually.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's fine.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's so not difficult for us either.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: Normally I'm higher in G and you're the democracy.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm the negative Nancy over here.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: We are Nancy.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: But we are very much a yin and yang on all in most things, so that kind of fits.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: It does fit.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we just flipped.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, we do that.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: Let us know in the comments what uh developmental period was most difficult for you if you're past most of these, or what periods you're anxious about.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um if you have any questions, we're please let us know.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: This podcast is intended for informational and educational purposes only, and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or any kind of professional mental health treatment.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: We hope that we can share with you our experience authentically and genuinely, and we hope that occasionally we'll make you laugh.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you can relate to our quest and how we're psyched for sanity.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: The content we share is um our personal opinions and insights.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: They are not clinical insights to anyone, and they don't represent or reflect any entity that we worked in or have worked for in the past.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: But if listening to this podcast has made you think, we really encourage you to seek out a mental health professional in your area.