Latest / The Speak Life Podcast / The World’s Most Famous CEO is Rethinking Faith… Meet the Reason || SLP623

Transcript

The World’s Most Famous CEO is Rethinking Faith… Meet the Reason || SLP623 · The Speak Life Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Well, hello and welcome back to the Speak Life podcast.
0:03
SPEAKER_00: My name is Thomas Thoroughgood, media producer at Speak Life.
0:07
SPEAKER_00: And before we get into today's episode, I'd just like to draw your attention to our brand new updated release of 321.
0:16
SPEAKER_00: So we've made some changes to the 321 course, our evangelistic course, which many people do online or one-to-one with a friend or run in their churches.
0:27
SPEAKER_00: We've made some some exciting changes as part of release four, as we're calling it.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: And so there's a new course handbook.
0:35
SPEAKER_00: There are new discussion questions at the end of each video based on kind of feedback that we've been receiving, what would be most helpful for people while they're doing the course.
0:46
SPEAKER_00: And we've got some additional videos to accompany the course.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: So we've got a brand new 321 in three minutes video with stunning animations.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: We've got a host promo video for church leaders who want to advertise the course in their churches.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: And there's a brand new prologue with animations that features within the course.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: So if you would like to check these out, go to 321course.com and you will be able to get all of these exciting bits and pieces right.
1:18
SPEAKER_00: Today's episode.
1:19
SPEAKER_00: This is an exciting one how this came about.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: A few months ago, Speak Life put out a reel on Instagram, and it included Stephen Bartlett, who is the presenter of the world's second biggest podcast, The Diary of a CEO.
1:35
SPEAKER_00: And in that conversation, Stephen Bartlett told the story of a close friend of his who was living in Dubai, you know, earning lots of money, things going pretty well, but then kind of got stuck in a in a bit of a meaning crisis.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: And the way Stephen Bartlett tells this story, this friend, without telling anyone, went off to the US, got baptized, he's now a Christian.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: His name is Anthony Scott Logan, and he reached out to us.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: And that brings us to this conversation.
2:07
SPEAKER_00: Glenn invited Logan, as as he is known, to come onto the Speak Life channel, the Speak Life podcast, to talk about his journey towards Christian faith and what Stephen Bartlett has been making of that.
2:21
SPEAKER_00: So it's an incredible testimony, it's an incredible example of how many people are coming to faith today.
2:28
SPEAKER_00: You're gonna hear a short preview of what's to come in the conversation, and then it's straight over to Glenn Scrivener interviewing Logan.
2:35
SPEAKER_00: Enjoy.
2:46
SPEAKER_01: But I've got one particular friend who's between 35 and 40 years old, freelancer, so he wakes up in the morning, his bed is there, he then works there, then goes back to bed.
2:53
SPEAKER_01: He's single, no kids.
2:55
SPEAKER_01: In his life at the moment, he said to me that he can't get out of bed anymore.
2:59
SPEAKER_01: He feels stuck.
3:00
SPEAKER_01: And then about six months after, out of the blue, it turns out without telling any of us, and we're his best friends, he's flown to America, he's been baptized, he's a Christian, suddenly his life has purpose and meaning again.
3:10
SPEAKER_01: He's a completely different person.
3:11
SPEAKER_04: He was probably quite shocked that I kept it from him because, you know, we share absolutely everything.
3:17
SPEAKER_04: He's the first person that I call for advice, uh, and I think vice versa.
3:21
SPEAKER_04: So I think it was uh a year ago that I first told him when we were in South Africa.
3:26
SPEAKER_04: About seven months after that, we were working out in the gym and he said to me, you know, I'm I'm jealous that you found this.
3:33
SPEAKER_04: I'm so happy for you, but I'm I'm jealous that you figured out what this is to you, because I can see that it's brought a lot of peace into your life.
3:41
SPEAKER_04: When I get really interested in something, I get very obsessed with it.
3:44
SPEAKER_04: So I sort of went down this rabbit hole of kind of trying to disprove all of the religions.
3:50
SPEAKER_04: But I was like, I'm not gonna do this without really studying them.
3:53
SPEAKER_04: I'll be honest, I was just blown away by the evidence, just absolutely blown away.
3:59
SPEAKER_03: Anthony Scott Logan, you are the CEO of Noir and you are living there in Dubai, and you have recently discovered faith in Christ, and you are an example that Stephen Bartlett uses of people who are currently finding there's a meaning crisis and that somehow Jesus is the answer to it.
4:17
SPEAKER_03: Why do you think people are searching in these kind of meaning-seeking ways?
4:23
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, such an interesting question.
4:24
SPEAKER_04: I think that what's happened is over sort of the last like 100, 200 years, um, there's just been this push towards individualism.
4:33
SPEAKER_04: And through that, I think people have kind of lost what their kind of purpose is.
4:38
SPEAKER_04: So they've held everything to like a status, a number of followers, how much wealth you can accumulate.
4:44
SPEAKER_04: Um, and and I think that, you know, eventually uh this you sort of hit a brick wall with this because once you have all of these things and you achieve all of these things, you kind of have to look around and be like, what is it that's actually important?
4:57
SPEAKER_04: And you realize it's friends, family, community.
5:00
SPEAKER_04: Um, and I and I think that we do need people, like we do need our friends, we do need our family, we do need the community.
5:07
SPEAKER_04: And so it's great to be in the pursuit of success and ambition.
5:12
SPEAKER_04: Um, but what is it all for?
5:14
SPEAKER_04: Uh and I think maybe people reach this point at different points in their life.
5:18
SPEAKER_04: Um, but for me, uh, this just seemed to be, I think I basically went through uh a very long time of uh being, I'd say, in the gutter of entrepreneurship.
5:29
SPEAKER_04: So trying and failing, uh, and you know, learning a lot of lessons, but not really progressing much.
5:35
SPEAKER_04: And then sort of over the last, I'd say, six years, um, I was, you know, extremely lucky and things started to fall into place for me.
5:43
SPEAKER_04: And within that, I went and bought all the things I wanted and I went and traveled to all the places and uh, you know, in the best class, in the best hotel.
5:52
SPEAKER_04: Um, and then, you know, once you have those things that you think that you needed and you've got that recognition recognition from people and status, um, you didn't really need it at all.
6:04
SPEAKER_04: You kind of just were doing that because like that's what we put value on.
6:08
SPEAKER_04: Um, so then really what it comes down to is now I have all of these things, like what can I actually do with them?
6:14
SPEAKER_04: And how do I impact the people that are really important around me?
6:18
SPEAKER_04: Um so yeah, I think I think a lot of people are going through this very similar process because I think we are the most like connected but disconnected society in the world now.
6:28
SPEAKER_04: Right.
6:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
6:29
SPEAKER_03: We go to Starbucks so that we can be uh together alone, you know, put the earbuds in, do do your own work in the in the cafe.
6:35
SPEAKER_03: You're with people, you're not really with people.
6:37
SPEAKER_03: You go to the gym, you're you're surrounded by people, you're not with people.
6:40
SPEAKER_03: You know, um there is that, yeah, that really interesting um uh combination of connected and disconnected.
6:48
SPEAKER_03: What's also leaping out at me from your story is um the the real seek the the search for something more wasn't so much when you were failing.
6:58
SPEAKER_03: Um actually you came to to feel something of spiritual emptiness when you were succeeding.
7:03
SPEAKER_03: That's that's a interesting dynamic.
7:05
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it is.
7:07
SPEAKER_04: Because I hear a lot of people that find their faith, you know, they're you know, are on their knees and they're like, you know, God, please help me.
7:14
SPEAKER_04: Um and I guess you know, there's there's always going to be an element of that because like I do believe that there we need something more than just existing and people saying, well done.
7:24
SPEAKER_04: Um I I think the pursuit of success is is a great pursuit to go through.
7:28
SPEAKER_04: And I think that it sharpens you so much.
7:30
SPEAKER_04: And I always push people to do it.
7:32
SPEAKER_04: But I I do think you eventually have to think about this question, which is like, why are we here?
7:38
SPEAKER_04: How did we get here?
7:40
SPEAKER_04: And I think one of the major things for me was like, I've never really looked into it.
7:44
SPEAKER_04: And so, you know, especially moving over uh and living in a religious country as well in the UAE, um, I'm seeing uh people with a lot of faith, and they have so much conviction in that faith, both, you know, uh Christians, Jews, Muslims.
7:59
SPEAKER_04: And I was just like, well, I don't believe this, but I also don't really have any evidence for why I don't believe it.
8:06
SPEAKER_04: So uh it was more a curiosity than anything else.
8:10
SPEAKER_04: And when I get really interested in something, I get very obsessed with it.
8:14
SPEAKER_04: So I sort of went down this rabbit hole of kind of trying to disprove all of the religions.
8:20
SPEAKER_04: Um, but I was like, I'm not I'm not gonna do this without really studying them.
8:24
SPEAKER_04: So I I ended up reading like the Torah, you know, um the um full gospel uh and also the Quran as well.
8:33
SPEAKER_04: Um because I was just so interested to first learn like what does it actually say, um, so I can you know really understand why people follow this so much and see if there was any wisdom in there.
8:43
SPEAKER_04: Because I thought at the very least, you know, at least if I read something, I've got some knowledge of it, and then I can, you know, have a stronger position on why I don't believe.
8:51
SPEAKER_04: Um and yeah, I just as I was reading, especially from the old testament to the new, there was just so many connections.
9:00
SPEAKER_04: And so I I kind of got to the point, um, especially after you know studying for like seven or eight months, and I went and met like religious leaders uh of each religion as well, uh, and got insights from different people.
9:12
SPEAKER_04: Um, I didn't tell anyone this process was going on as well, which was kind of like it's like a secret, you know, that I I just wasn't speaking to anyone about.
9:20
SPEAKER_04: Um, and yeah, within that process, I just found so many fascinating links, and especially when I start looking at the accuracy and uh uh historosis of um, you know, the Dead Sea Scrolls um and also of the um the New Testament, all of the manuscripts, like you know, five, six thousand or so.
9:43
SPEAKER_04: And that kind of just blew my mind because I'm like, okay, so clearly this Jesus guy was quite important uh considering you know it's 2,025 years since he was supposedly born.
9:54
SPEAKER_04: Um so I was like, maybe I should investigate further on this.
9:57
SPEAKER_03: Because paint us a picture of what why were you what why was your instinctive reaction that you wanted to disprove religion?
10:04
SPEAKER_03: And coming into this process, what were you expecting to find as as you looked into the Bible?
10:09
SPEAKER_03: Were you expecting to find that it was all a myth?
10:11
SPEAKER_03: Or yeah, what what were your priors?
10:13
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I I had this idea that uh and a few of my friends have a similar idea, which is if we found any old book and we dug it up, um, and you know, we didn't have any other knowledge, we would believe that this book could be from God or from anyone.
10:28
SPEAKER_04: Um, and just because it's from the past, so I was like, I I want to, if I'm going to have a position on something, I need to actually have some knowledge on it.
10:36
SPEAKER_04: And what I did find is most atheists or even agnostic that I spoke to had never looked into it.
10:43
SPEAKER_04: And that kind of shocked me.
10:44
SPEAKER_04: Um, and then what I also found is from a lot of um people from you know within the free faiths also hadn't really studied completely to be able to answer a lot of the questions.
10:55
SPEAKER_04: So I was like, so we've got a lot of people here who, you know, some of them have faith without any evidence, and then other people have zero faith, but they've never even investigated the evidence.
11:05
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
11:05
SPEAKER_03: Skepticism without evidence and faith without evidence, but yeah, no one, no one's looking at the evidence.
11:10
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so I I just felt like if I'm ever going to hold a position on something, you know, I don't want to be that person who's on the fence or someone who's got a really strong opinion opinion without any evidence.
11:21
SPEAKER_04: So I was like, I'm just going to study it and see if I can find like problems in it.
11:25
SPEAKER_04: Uh and and I really, I really uh was like, you know, maybe it's just and I remember years ago, someone asked me, like, you know, who do you think Jesus is?
11:33
SPEAKER_04: And I was like, you know, maybe it's just like an amazing person that came around, right?
11:37
SPEAKER_04: Like Martin Luther King or someone like that, just had an incredible impact, like super like powerful, motivational speaker, and captivated the minds of the people at that time.
11:46
SPEAKER_04: And I thought maybe it just got a bit misunderstood and he got turned into a legend, and you know, and then the whole thing built out from there.
11:54
SPEAKER_04: Um, but yeah, the problem is, is there really is just so much evidence of who he was and then the impact that he had.
12:02
SPEAKER_04: I mean, no one has ever had that impact, ever.
12:05
SPEAKER_04: And we've had many people come, and there's also been many um sort of uh myths and um kind of cults that have formed, and all of them are collapsed, right?
12:15
SPEAKER_04: So I'm like, let's look at the major ones, and you know, maybe uh within this, I should have actually explored all religions.
12:23
SPEAKER_04: Um, and so you know, I would not have any opinion on other religions because I just don't know anything about them.
12:28
SPEAKER_04: Uh, but for me, the Abrahamic face was the most interesting just because of the amount of history that's there, and to understand where we are, we have to understand where we came from.
12:39
SPEAKER_04: And I love history anyway, so I was like, this is more an exercise of just digging through history and seeing if some things are true.
12:46
SPEAKER_04: And I'll be honest, I was just blown away by the evidence, just absolutely blown away.
12:51
SPEAKER_04: Not convinced there was God, just blown away by the evidence.
12:54
SPEAKER_03: Interesting, and and were there other people around you, and and what what age are you and how many years ago is this?
12:59
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so this would have been, I mean, it's quite interesting.
13:02
SPEAKER_04: So I decided to quit drinking in January 2023, and it was more of an experiment.
13:07
SPEAKER_04: I wasn't like a big drinker.
13:09
SPEAKER_04: I was just like, I'm gonna try and just not drink for a few months, and I'm just gonna see what impact that has on my life.
13:16
SPEAKER_04: I was like, because my my kind of theory behind it was when you have a drink on the weekend, let's say you're at like 100% energy most days when you wake up, or even a little bit less if you've had a bad sleep, maybe 90%.
13:28
SPEAKER_04: If you've drank the night before, even just one or two, you're probably at like 60.
13:33
SPEAKER_04: And if you've had a few drinks, you're probably at like 20 or 30, right?
13:36
SPEAKER_04: You're hungover.
13:38
SPEAKER_04: And so how how much does that accumulate over a week?
13:42
SPEAKER_04: Because I remember, especially when I was younger, if I'd go out and party by like Tuesday, Wednesday, I'd suddenly start to feel good again, and then I'd go out again.
13:51
SPEAKER_04: So I was like, maybe a lot of people in the world are operating a lot less than 100% energy, and so it might give me a bit of leverage to kind of uh optimize my health, especially as I was getting older as well.
14:04
SPEAKER_04: Um, and yeah, so within that, after three months, I just had amazing results and I just felt so good.
14:09
SPEAKER_04: Everyone kept telling me I looked younger and my skin was better, and it's kind of crazy because I really didn't drink that much.
14:15
SPEAKER_04: I probably had like one or two drinks on a weekend, maybe a few more.
14:19
SPEAKER_04: Um, and then it was like four months into that um that I really just had this kind of burning question in my mind, which is there's got to be something more than just work, you know, and and optimizing myself, like body, health, fitness, etc.
14:36
SPEAKER_04: Um, and so yeah, that's that's kind of like what first pulled me in to ask those questions.
14:40
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
14:41
SPEAKER_03: Should we have a look at how Stephen Butlett kind of sets it up?
14:45
SPEAKER_03: Because he he talks about your story as something that really uh precipitated some some deep thought within him as he's um trying to process um uh a background that that's has been familiar with the church but but now living in a in a secular space.
15:02
SPEAKER_03: And your sort of exhibit A of what he sees as a trend, and I think we all see some kind of a trend, uh, of people reassessing things and wondering whether there might be some wisdom uh to uh an ancient faith like Christianity.
15:17
SPEAKER_03: Um here's how Stephen sets it up, and then I'll ask you your reaction.
15:21
SPEAKER_01: I've got several people in my life that are I can I can literally lay out the personas, but I've got one particular friend who's 35, between 35 and 40 years old, living in Dubai, living in a glass box freelancer.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: So he wakes up in the morning, his bed is there, he then works there, then goes back to bed.
15:38
SPEAKER_01: He's single, no kids.
15:39
SPEAKER_01: In his life at the moment, he said to me that he can't get out of bed anymore.
15:43
SPEAKER_01: He feels stuck.
15:44
SPEAKER_01: And then about six months after, out of the blue, it turns out, without telling any of us, and we're his best friends, he's flown to America, he's been baptized, he's a Christian, suddenly his life has purpose and meaning again.
15:54
SPEAKER_01: He's a completely different person.
15:56
SPEAKER_01: And this individual never, ever, he would be the last person that you'd think would be religious.
16:00
SPEAKER_03: So Stephen says, You're great friends, and he saw a great change in you.
16:05
SPEAKER_03: What do you think he was noticing?
16:06
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean, I think he was probably quite shocked that I kept it from him because you know we share absolutely everything.
16:13
SPEAKER_04: He's the first person that I call for advice, uh, and I think vice versa.
16:17
SPEAKER_04: Um but yeah, I mean, that there is a change that happens, right?
16:23
SPEAKER_04: Because if you actually, I mean, we can go backwards on this, but if you truly believe in something, um, then and you have to like actually change how you are, you can't continue in the same way because what you knew is not what you knew.
16:38
SPEAKER_04: And I mean, I I don't even think it's it's something that you are consciously doing.
16:43
SPEAKER_04: I I personally believe that like God actually does change you.
16:47
SPEAKER_04: Um, but in a very simple way to understand it, it's holding the mirror up to yourself every single day and thinking about the things that you do.
16:56
SPEAKER_04: And if there's no God, why do you need to think about the things that you do?
16:59
SPEAKER_04: And maybe you think about some of the things that you do, but if you believe in God, you think about everything that you do, every single interaction that you have, every bad thought that crosses your mind, or a little burst of anger, whatever it is, and you say, Is this how I want to live?
17:15
SPEAKER_04: And I also think as well that you know, praying, um, like to pray is just to ask, and you're having this conversation with God, when you do this on a daily basis, you can't then go and sin directly after you feel like a hypocrite.
17:29
SPEAKER_04: Not to say that you don't sin.
17:30
SPEAKER_04: I think everybody misses the mark in life, but it it definitely is there, it is front of mind.
17:37
SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, you're having an open conversation with God, and then you have to control in the next moment if something happens and you would normally react a certain way, you have to not react that way.
17:48
SPEAKER_04: And so I think it's probably a combination of the fact that I now believe, and someone who was, you know, they least expected any of my friends.
17:57
SPEAKER_04: I was the the last one that was going to believe in God, um, to then the small but very significant changes that I've made in my life since then.
18:06
SPEAKER_03: Because what because we'll we'll go back to what it is about Christ that was compelling to you and and why you became a Christian.
18:13
SPEAKER_03: But I I just want to get it, like what because he seems to look at you with some envy in terms of what it is that you've discovered.
18:20
SPEAKER_03: What do you think he sees that you have discovered that he wants?
18:25
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, envy is a very interesting word of this.
18:28
SPEAKER_04: I think that in life everybody is quite confused about a lot of things, and I think this is such a huge topic, right?
18:36
SPEAKER_04: And so, in the same way that you know, when I moved over to the Middle East and I saw people with so much faith, it rocked me a little bit too.
18:43
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
18:44
SPEAKER_04: Because it's it's kind of like, how do you have so much conviction in in this thing that I don't even believe?
18:50
SPEAKER_04: And so when someone close to you has so much conviction in something, afterwards you then have to ask, well, what is it that they figured out that I haven't yet?
19:00
SPEAKER_04: And you know, uh either they're mad and they've lost their mind, or maybe they're right.
19:07
SPEAKER_04: And you know, you have to kind of ask that question.
19:09
SPEAKER_04: And I and you know, Steve, uh maybe saw I think it was a a year ago that I I first told him when we were in South Africa, and about seven months after that, we were working out in the gym, and he said to me, You know, I'm I'm jealous that you found this.
19:26
SPEAKER_04: Um, I'm so happy for you, but I'm I'm jealous that you figured out what this what this is to you, um, because I can see that it's brought a lot of peace into your life.
19:36
SPEAKER_04: And so, yeah, I think I think it's a similar thing for most people.
19:39
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
19:40
SPEAKER_03: So let's let's rewind and and and figure out what what were the steps towards faith?
19:45
SPEAKER_03: So you've you've taken religion more seriously, you've opened up the Torah, the first five books of the Bible, the the Gospels, the Quran.
19:53
SPEAKER_03: Um, what's what what are some of the next steps for you?
19:56
SPEAKER_04: I kind of got convinced, okay, this guy, Jesus, he existed.
19:59
SPEAKER_04: It definitely existed.
20:00
SPEAKER_04: There's so much evidence outside the Bible that he existed, and that's kind of really where I got my conviction from.
20:06
SPEAKER_04: Um, that's where it actually stumped me was the prophecies.
20:12
SPEAKER_04: This stuff just absolutely blew my mind.
20:16
SPEAKER_04: And I remember the moment that I connected the dots, and I didn't connect the dots from uh kind of typing, you know, can I view all the prophecies?
20:25
SPEAKER_04: I actually connected the dots because I'd read the Old Testament and I'd read the Psalms, and then I'm reading the New Testament, and then I get to this one line, and it is I actually have it here.
20:37
SPEAKER_04: So it's Eli Yuma, Eli Eli Lama Sabakani.
20:41
SPEAKER_04: And this is my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
20:44
SPEAKER_04: So the obvious question that came to my mind was why is God, Jesus, asking God, his father, why he's forsaken him?
20:53
SPEAKER_04: This to me made absolutely no sense.
20:56
SPEAKER_04: And it's always taught like this.
20:58
SPEAKER_04: When I was younger, it's like he's on the cross, he's looking up, and he's saying, My God, my God, like why have you done why have you done this to me?
21:05
SPEAKER_04: Why have you forsaken me?
21:07
SPEAKER_04: And you know, I heard many things when I was younger, which is oh, that's his human self speaking to the God self.
21:14
SPEAKER_04: That never really like landed with me.
21:15
SPEAKER_04: It didn't make much sense.
21:18
SPEAKER_04: And then I remembered that I'd read this same line in Psalms, so then I started to look further into it, and I'm like, he's not speaking to God at all.
21:28
SPEAKER_04: He's speaking to the people in the crowd, he's speaking to everyone there, and so I go back to Psalms um and I read it in full.
21:37
SPEAKER_04: I've actually I've got my Bible here, so I'll pull it out.
21:40
SPEAKER_04: And this just blew my line, absolutely blew my mind.
21:43
SPEAKER_04: Uh, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
21:46
SPEAKER_04: Why are you so far from saving me from the words of my groaning?
21:50
SPEAKER_04: Oh my god, I cry by day, but you do not answer, and by night, but I find no rest.
21:55
SPEAKER_04: Yet you are holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel, and you are the only thing.
22:00
SPEAKER_04: Our fathers trusted, they trusted and you delivered them.
22:03
SPEAKER_04: To you they cried and were rescued.
22:05
SPEAKER_04: In you they trusted and were not put to shame.
22:08
SPEAKER_04: But I am a worm and not a man.
22:10
SPEAKER_04: I am scorned by mankind and despised by the people.
22:14
SPEAKER_04: All who see me mock me, they make their mouths at me, they wag their heads, and they say, He who trusts in the Lord, let him deliver him, let him rescue him, for the for he delights in him.
22:26
SPEAKER_04: Yet you are he who took me from the womb, you made me trust you at my mother's rest.
22:31
SPEAKER_04: On you I was cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God, but not far from me, for trouble is near, and there is none to help.
22:41
SPEAKER_04: Many bulls encompass me, strong bulls of bashing surround me, they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening a ravening and roaring lion.
22:50
SPEAKER_04: I am poured out like water, and all the bones are out of joint.
22:54
SPEAKER_04: My heart is like wax, it is melted within my breast, my strength is dried up like a pot's herd, and my tongue sticks to my jaw.
23:02
SPEAKER_04: You lay me in the dust of death.
23:04
SPEAKER_04: For dogs encompass me, and a company of evildoers encircle me.
23:08
SPEAKER_04: They have pierced my hands and seeth.
23:11
SPEAKER_04: I can count all my bones.
23:13
SPEAKER_04: They stare at me and glow over me, they divide my garments amongst them.
23:17
SPEAKER_04: Wow.
23:18
SPEAKER_04: And for my clothing they cast lots.
23:22
SPEAKER_04: This is everything that is being described right in that moment.
23:27
SPEAKER_04: So that just absolutely blew my mind.
23:29
SPEAKER_04: And my first thought was Christians wrote this.
23:32
SPEAKER_04: You know, it's been edited.
23:34
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
23:34
SPEAKER_04: Someone's changed it.
23:36
SPEAKER_04: I, you know, I've heard other faiths say that you know all the books have been changed.
23:39
SPEAKER_04: But obviously, I've I've already done a lot of research onto like what are the accuracy of these texts.
23:45
SPEAKER_04: And I read about the Dead Sea Scrolls.
23:47
SPEAKER_04: Well, the Dead Sea Scrolls prove that that was written over a thousand years before Jesus was even born.
23:54
SPEAKER_04: And so it wasn't changed, and he is literally pointing to exactly what is happening to him in that moment.
24:02
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
24:02
SPEAKER_04: And that's where the sort of penny dropped for me, because I'm like, you can't fake this.
24:06
SPEAKER_04: Right.
24:07
SPEAKER_04: Like how everything he describes, they cast lots from the back.
24:10
SPEAKER_03: How do you arrange your own crucifixion?
24:12
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
24:13
SPEAKER_04: Everything.
24:14
SPEAKER_04: Even when he said that, you know, it if if God is your father, like let him save you right now.
24:20
SPEAKER_04: Like everything, the words they said, the actions they did, it's right there.
24:25
SPEAKER_04: And that was obviously not the first one.
24:27
SPEAKER_04: You know, there were there were so many in Isaiah as well, and all the other prophecies, but this one this made me change from I'm investigating this to disprove it, to I think I'm wrong, and I think I was the problem here, and maybe I need to revisit this.
24:44
SPEAKER_03: That's amazing.
24:45
SPEAKER_03: Because the so the Masoretic text is the the the Hebrew Bible that's been passed on from scribe to scribe within the Jewish tradition, and sort of the earliest manuscripts we have of those go back to about a thousand AD.
24:57
SPEAKER_03: And the the wonder of the Dead Sees Dead Sea Scrolls is that all of a sudden you have access to text, uh a text that is a thousand years earlier and written around the year dot, um, but certainly before the New Testament, um, in which, oh no, everything that's in the Masoretic text, or largely, I'm not gonna say word for word identical, um, because that might get me in in trouble, but um but very, very large um overlap.
25:22
SPEAKER_03: And yeah, those Dead Sea Scrolls bring back um the the the the time of Psalm 22, for instance, at least a thousand years, and probably a thousand years, but you know, going back to David's time.
25:33
SPEAKER_03: And so whatever's going on, it sounds like it was written after the cross.
25:37
SPEAKER_03: It sounds like somebody is like reporting on what they are watching as the the soldiers gamble for his clothes, and yet here it is in scripture, and here it is in the old testament, which is which is fascinating because I I I'm it warms my heart, um, Logan, to hear you say that Old Testament scriptures have been have been part of your part of your faith.
25:58
SPEAKER_03: It's not not just a New Testament thing.
25:59
SPEAKER_03: Has that been important for you?
26:02
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, for me, like data, sources, truth, this is the only thing that you know has ever been important to me.
26:09
SPEAKER_04: I don't believe anything unless I've like studied it, read it, understand it.
26:13
SPEAKER_04: And I I always go by this mantra as I have strong opinions loosely held.
26:17
SPEAKER_04: And so if I get more information, I'm happy to change my mind.
26:20
SPEAKER_04: But with this, this changed my mind.
26:23
SPEAKER_04: This was the new information, and it kind of rocked everything.
26:27
SPEAKER_03: So because what do you conclude?
26:29
SPEAKER_03: So, okay, so like thousand-year-old prophecies are all coalescing around a single figure who is the most famous human being who's ever lived, who walks around planet Earth like he owns the place.
26:40
SPEAKER_03: He seems to think very highly of himself, he seems to have um a kind of a messiah complex, perhaps the original condition.
26:48
SPEAKER_03: Um, what's the what's the step from there to saying Jesus is Lord and I'm all in?
26:54
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it took quite a few more.
26:55
SPEAKER_04: I definitely wasn't completely sold at that point.
26:58
SPEAKER_04: Um, for me at this moment, uh, so this probably takes me to around October, which is what Steve's talking about, October 2023.
27:07
SPEAKER_04: Um, I have two like really, really close friends, like they're essentially family for me, uh, Haley and Boston, and both of them are uh sons and daughters of different pastors.
27:18
SPEAKER_04: They've married each other.
27:19
SPEAKER_04: They're the two people that I know, you know, love God more than anyone else, like that I've ever met.
27:24
SPEAKER_04: And so they've never like tried to convert me or anything, but they've always said, if you ever have any questions or something you want to know about, like we're here, we're here for you.
27:34
SPEAKER_04: And I'm like godfather to their kids, and you know, we're super close.
27:37
SPEAKER_04: So um I ring up Boston first and I'm like, hey, uh, you probably won't believe that this has happened, but I've just spent like the last like seven months like studying all religious texts, and I've come to the conclusion that uh I believe Jesus is real, and I'm starting to realize that all of the prophecies that were written were true about him.
27:59
SPEAKER_04: Um, and I do believe that he is who he says he is.
28:02
SPEAKER_04: I don't really know what that means, but it's now making me look at every word he ever said because if it is true, it changes everything.
28:11
SPEAKER_04: And he's like, Well, what are the questions that you have?
28:15
SPEAKER_04: And I had like pages and pages of things I just didn't really understand properly.
28:20
SPEAKER_04: And so he's a very, very logical guy, and so he's not gonna kind of like sweep things over and give me these kind of like super religious answers.
28:28
SPEAKER_04: He was just like, You ask me the question, I'll give you a straight answer with it.
28:32
SPEAKER_04: And if I don't know, I'll say, I'm not sure what that is, but we can look into it together.
28:36
SPEAKER_04: And so we probably spent like three hours on a Zoom call going through all these questions.
28:41
SPEAKER_04: Um, and then about two days later, he messages me and he's like, Come over to California.
28:47
SPEAKER_04: They live in Sacramento and they've got a huge church there, and they are uh Pentecostals, uh, so you know, belief in the Holy Spirit and you know, very much experiencing uh the Spirit of God.
28:58
SPEAKER_04: Um, so I was like, okay, why not?
29:00
SPEAKER_04: Go on a flight, flew like what, 17 hours to go and learn about God from them too.
29:06
SPEAKER_04: Um, and then I sat with them and we just continued for like the next four or five days, just me asking loads of questions about scripture um and what that means and and how to understand this and this and you know, revelation and just everything you can think of.
29:21
SPEAKER_04: It was just like an ongoing Bible study.
29:23
SPEAKER_04: Um, and then at the end of the trip, uh Haley's wife said to me, Um, look, I know you were baptized when you were young, um, but you you clearly are curious, and your curiosity is is you know, it's it's like a mustard seed and it is growing inside of you.
29:40
SPEAKER_04: And so why don't you just get baptized?
29:43
SPEAKER_04: And so I, you know, again, I don't really understand this, but I was just like, go for it.
29:47
SPEAKER_04: Like, you know, I still didn't fully believe in anything, not spiritually, kind of logically I believed in it from the text.
29:54
SPEAKER_04: So I get baptized.
29:55
SPEAKER_04: This is yeah, like uh end of October 2023.
29:59
SPEAKER_04: Um, and then yeah, I really wasn't quite sure.
30:02
SPEAKER_04: It's kind of a bit of a strange experience, you know, you're wearing like some kind of nighty and then getting in like with loads of people around you, and you know, my friends are crying, and I'm like, okay, this is a bit weird.
30:13
SPEAKER_04: And then, you know, I I get back to Dubai, and yeah, I mean, I just felt different.
30:19
SPEAKER_04: I I wasn't really convinced anything massively had changed, and but the way they explained it to me was you know, you're you're in a dark tunnel, you've found a light, you've turned around, just started facing it.
30:33
SPEAKER_04: You've not walked all the way in, but you've just faced it, you've made a decision to walk in this direction, and your curiosity will keep you leading in that direction.
30:42
SPEAKER_04: And so, yeah, I uh I came back and I start praying because I'm like, okay, never done this before, but like let's give it a go.
30:52
SPEAKER_04: And yeah, a few months later, I'm finding it really hard to pray as well, because if you don't really believe something fully, and then you're just kind of sat there, like it feels kind of stupid, right?
31:02
SPEAKER_04: So, but I never felt bad after doing it, and that this was kind of one of the things that really got me because I'm like, well, every time I do pray, it's like therapy with yourself in a way, you know, you you kind of release everything and you admit the things you're doing, and you say that you want to be different.
31:19
SPEAKER_04: And I guess even saying that you want to be different changes something in you.
31:23
SPEAKER_04: Um, and so yeah, I did start to feel a change from that.
31:27
SPEAKER_04: And then I remember um I rang my my friend again, Boston, and I said to him, you know, I really want to understand like how do I hear God?
31:36
SPEAKER_04: You know, I've obviously heard these stories of people like hearing God, like how do I actually hear God?
31:42
SPEAKER_04: And he's like, Well, what have you asked?
31:43
SPEAKER_04: And I was like, I haven't.
31:44
SPEAKER_04: I just said sorry.
31:46
SPEAKER_04: And he's like, Well, you need to, you need to speak, you need to actually ask.
31:49
SPEAKER_04: He goes, To pray means to ask, so ask.
31:51
SPEAKER_04: And so uh I remember I he said to me, What why don't you fast for a few days?
31:57
SPEAKER_04: And he explained it to me in a in a way only I would understand.
32:01
SPEAKER_04: He was like, think of it like a signal on your phone.
32:03
SPEAKER_04: Uh, you've got like limited service when you eat because it's the flesh and you're you know, you know, you're full of food and your mind's full.
32:10
SPEAKER_04: And he's like, You know, when you don't eat, you're really like razor sharp at work.
32:13
SPEAKER_04: He was like, So if you fast, you've got like a 5G connection.
32:16
SPEAKER_04: So he was like, try this, it will clear your mind and it will bring you closer.
32:21
SPEAKER_04: Um, so yeah, I prayed.
32:23
SPEAKER_04: Uh, and I have this like one memory from years and years and years ago when I lived in Manchester, and I used to throw like nightclub parties back in the day in DJ of it.
32:32
SPEAKER_04: And I remember I threw this one party, and when uh enough people come to the your event, you don't have to pay rent to the venue.
32:41
SPEAKER_04: But on this night, as Manchester it rains pretty much every single day, it absolutely poured it down.
32:48
SPEAKER_04: Hardly anyone turned up, and I'm not in a great financial position at this point.
32:53
SPEAKER_04: And um, I had to pay like the last bit of money I had, like it was right in my overdraft.
32:59
SPEAKER_04: I give this to the venue.
33:00
SPEAKER_04: It's like 2 a.m.
33:02
SPEAKER_04: I live like 40 minutes out, like walk, and I've I've not even got one pound.
33:07
SPEAKER_04: And I'm walking down the street and never forget because I had a hole in my shoe and it would like squelch as I walked down the street.
33:14
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
33:15
SPEAKER_04: And uh, and I remember just being like, if there's a God, like, you know, can this really get any worse?
33:21
SPEAKER_04: And then a bus came past and I got soaked, and I was like, oh, thanks, thanks, God.
33:25
SPEAKER_04: Um and uh and then I carried on, like I walked back and I just thought, you know, this is a very low day, but it'll be okay.
33:33
SPEAKER_04: Uh all of this will work out in the future, and you know, thank God it did.
33:37
SPEAKER_04: Um, but I I said, God, if there's someone in this position that's got no money, no food, and they are at the bottom where I felt in that moment, I didn't realize that you were there for me then, and you gave me my ambition and my hunger to want to do the things I'm doing, which we can touch on this after.
33:53
SPEAKER_04: But uh, I have a very good understanding in my mind of like what God's will is now from this scenario.
33:58
SPEAKER_04: And I said to him, Um, you know, if there's someone like this that's going through this, just be there for them in the way that I didn't realize you were there for me, right?
34:07
SPEAKER_04: I finished praying.
34:09
SPEAKER_04: It was the first time I've ever asked for anything.
34:11
SPEAKER_04: I get in my car, I drive to the barbers to get a haircut, and as I pull up, this guy like runs to my car and like bangs on the window.
34:20
SPEAKER_04: Now, this is really strange in the Middle East because like people do not like approach you.
34:24
SPEAKER_04: It's very like you have your privacy.
34:26
SPEAKER_04: And I wind down my window and he's like, Are you having a good day?
34:29
SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, uh, yep.
34:31
SPEAKER_04: How can I help you?
34:32
SPEAKER_04: He's like, I lost my job, my visa's expiring, like I'm in a really bad way.
34:37
SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, uh, well, I don't have any cash on me, but um, you know, if you give me your CV, my friend owns a recruitment agency, I can I can send your CV to her.
34:46
SPEAKER_04: And he's like, I just really need some food.
34:48
SPEAKER_04: I am just so hungry.
34:50
SPEAKER_04: And so I look, and next to uh where my barbers is, is a shop.
34:54
SPEAKER_04: So I was like, no worries, come with me, we'll get you some food.
34:56
SPEAKER_04: We go in the shop, get some food, and like, get whatever you want.
35:00
SPEAKER_04: He's like, No, really specific.
35:01
SPEAKER_04: He's like, I just want like a sandwich, drink, like, you know, a bit of fruit.
35:05
SPEAKER_04: So I get these things, and then I walk out the shop and he hugs me like straight away, and he's like, you know, I prayed for God that I would meet someone like you today.
35:14
SPEAKER_04: I thought that's a nice thing to say.
35:15
SPEAKER_04: I was like, it's interesting because I kind of prayed to God a similar thing.
35:19
SPEAKER_04: And uh anyway, my my first name is obviously Anthony, and I said to him, uh, you know, it's great to meet you.
35:25
SPEAKER_04: Uh do give me your CV and I'll send it to my friend.
35:27
SPEAKER_04: What's your name?
35:28
SPEAKER_04: And he's like, My name's Anthony.
35:30
SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, ah, no way, that's that's also my name.
35:32
SPEAKER_04: Ha.
35:33
SPEAKER_04: And so I get back in the car and I'm sat there, and I'm like, that was that was a very big coincidence, you know?
35:39
SPEAKER_04: I'm like, not quite sure what that was.
35:42
SPEAKER_04: That is literally exactly what I asked for 20 minutes before.
35:46
SPEAKER_04: I said, if there's someone in my situation who needs you, help him.
35:51
SPEAKER_04: And he and you know, for me, I think God said, Okay, I will, it's you, and then sent me.
35:58
SPEAKER_04: And then gave, you know, he has the same name as me, just as like a little in case I didn't realize.
36:02
SPEAKER_04: That's that's kind of how I saw it.
36:04
SPEAKER_04: At the time, I was, you know, I rang my friends and I was like, the weirdest coincidence just happened.
36:09
SPEAKER_04: Um, and you know, but maybe it was God, maybe it wasn't.
36:12
SPEAKER_04: But something happened in that moment, and it was exactly what I asked.
36:16
SPEAKER_04: So I'm still not fully convinced.
36:19
SPEAKER_04: This happened many more times.
36:21
SPEAKER_04: I would ask for something, something would happen.
36:24
SPEAKER_04: And so I was like, either that you know, I am manifesting things to happen, as people say, manifest the universe or whatever, um, or you know, God is real and like something is actually happening.
36:35
SPEAKER_04: There's there's a frequency that's aligning with what I'm asking for and what's actually happening.
36:40
SPEAKER_04: So I'm starting to go between logically convinced and you know historically to being a little bit more spiritually.
36:49
SPEAKER_04: Fast forward um seven months, my friend said to me, Look, we've got this uh got this big thing coming up called Pentecost.
36:57
SPEAKER_04: I'm sure you've read a little bit of it in the Bible, but um, why don't you come over to America again and just come and see us?
37:03
SPEAKER_04: And I was like, Okay, I'll see the kids, you know, I had a nice time last time.
37:08
SPEAKER_04: And so I fly over and they're talking to me about the Holy Spirit.
37:12
SPEAKER_04: Um, and this was one of the things that as a very logical thinker, I struggled with in the Bible because you know, I think the Trinity in general is is quite a hard thing to grasp as a concept, um, as as someone coming in, you know, reading from text, and the idea that there's this spirit that can live in you was a really hard thing for me to get my head around, and that they believed that you could actually it would happen exactly as it happened on Pentecost and you would actually know it happened.
37:42
SPEAKER_04: I thought that people just made this up.
37:45
SPEAKER_04: And so I I literally I remember I said to my friend, I was like, When people receive the Holy Spirit, do you think that everybody is is actually like experiencing this, or do you think that some people maybe just really want it to happen?
37:58
SPEAKER_04: So they just pretend it is.
38:00
SPEAKER_04: And he was like, I think you could be right.
38:02
SPEAKER_04: He goes, I think it's both, like and he's like, I have seen things which I can't explain, and you will too.
38:10
SPEAKER_04: And he's like, But this is something that you need to experience yourself, and you need to make your mind up.
38:15
SPEAKER_04: I can't explain it to you, it's something you experience.
38:18
SPEAKER_04: And he said, And I also don't want to put something into your head for what you should experience, because then you'll think that I told you to experience this.
38:26
SPEAKER_04: So I was like, okay, and so on the day of Pentecost, he says to me, uh, him and his wife, Haley, they said, Tonight, we believe that you will experience this great gift from God and you will feel like the presence of the spirit inside of you.
38:40
SPEAKER_04: And I was like, sure, you know, I really was not convinced at all.
38:45
SPEAKER_03: And um, anyway, they have like an evening.
38:47
SPEAKER_03: But it was something you'd you'd want to happen, right?
38:50
SPEAKER_03: Like by this point, you're hoping that that happens, are you?
38:53
SPEAKER_04: No, not really.
38:55
SPEAKER_04: No, I mean, because I didn't really understand what that meant.
38:58
SPEAKER_04: Like, I I read it, but reading it, like it makes a lot of sense now, and I I'm happy that it happened.
39:04
SPEAKER_04: But at the time, I'm like, this sounds like you're gonna be possessed.
39:07
SPEAKER_04: It doesn't sound that great to me.
39:09
SPEAKER_04: Like, it sounds a bit weird.
39:10
SPEAKER_04: Um, and I I just couldn't get my head around it.
39:13
SPEAKER_04: You know, it's it's it's illogical, you know, in my mind, you know, the way my brain works.
39:17
SPEAKER_04: I'm like, no, that obviously can't happen.
39:18
SPEAKER_04: Like, you know, you can pray there's a there's a I can believe there's a God outside of our realm, but I I can't believe that something's gonna happen to me.
39:26
SPEAKER_04: Um, and so yeah, they have two services.
39:29
SPEAKER_04: They have the main service in the evening, and there's like 1500 people there, and then they have like a warm-up, a run-through of what's gonna happen in the evening.
39:37
SPEAKER_04: And so everyone's saying, all around me, all their family, tonight it's gonna happen tonight.
39:41
SPEAKER_04: And we go in the morning service and they're running through what's going to happen.
39:45
SPEAKER_04: At the end of service, you you kind of go up and everyone puts their hands up in the air and they just like pray.
39:50
SPEAKER_04: And I obviously find this as a British person very uncomfortable because you know, we're kind of stoic and we're like, we'll just keep to ourselves.
39:58
SPEAKER_04: And I remember my my friend Boston said to me, uh, Logan, just go to the front where the altar is, just put your hands up and just say to God, like, if this is for me, then just let it happen.
40:08
SPEAKER_04: And like, you know, I fully surrender.
40:10
SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, I don't, I really don't feel comfortable doing this, but do you know what?
40:14
SPEAKER_04: To humor you, I will just do it.
40:17
SPEAKER_04: And when I'm up there, I just get this massive like jolt out my chest.
40:22
SPEAKER_04: And I was like, and the crazy thing was is like I wasn't like a heightened sense.
40:28
SPEAKER_04: I was like, I would say that this is more of a heightened sense having a conversation with you than how I felt in that moment.
40:34
SPEAKER_04: I was super chill.
40:35
SPEAKER_04: I was kind of how you know, dare I say it, a little bit judgmental of the people it was happening to around me.
40:42
SPEAKER_04: And I I really did think that, you know, people are just making this up.
40:45
SPEAKER_04: Or they just really wanted to believe it and it made them happy, so that's fine.
40:49
SPEAKER_04: And so anyway, I stop it happening in this moment.
40:52
SPEAKER_04: And Boston comes to me and he's like, Logan, put your hands up in the air and trust that everyone around you knows you, it's fine, and just let this happen.
41:00
SPEAKER_04: Whatever it is, it's not bad.
41:02
SPEAKER_04: And so, yeah, I I put my hands up again like this.
41:05
SPEAKER_04: I close my eyes and I just said, God, like whatever this is, like I trust you with it.
41:09
SPEAKER_04: And if you're real, then like show me, you know, kind of like a challenge.
41:13
SPEAKER_04: And uh and then it happened again.
41:15
SPEAKER_04: And it and in this moment, I can't really describe it, but it felt like there was some kind of battle inside of me.
41:21
SPEAKER_04: And then I couldn't feel my legs, I kind of felt numb everywhere.
41:24
SPEAKER_04: It's it's a really difficult feeling to explain.
41:27
SPEAKER_04: And then at the end of it, I just cried my eyes out like a child.
41:31
SPEAKER_04: And I am like anyone that knows me is I am just not like an overly uh emotional person.
41:37
SPEAKER_04: Like, you know, I cry at funerals, I just don't cry.
41:40
SPEAKER_04: I thought I was broken for a long time with this, but I was just crying my eyes out, but it wasn't like a sad feeling, it was like just a really happy, like wow, like I don't know what that was, but like I've just never felt that feeling in my life.
41:56
SPEAKER_04: Um, and so I'm like, Well, I didn't make that up, you know.
42:02
SPEAKER_04: So it kind of was like another penny dropped at that point.
42:05
SPEAKER_03: Right.
42:06
SPEAKER_03: Have you cried more since?
42:10
SPEAKER_03: Have you been more open to emotion, do you think, since?
42:14
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
42:16
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, something something changed in that moment, um, especially in prayer as well.
42:23
SPEAKER_04: Like just I think understanding what it would have been like in that moment, especially at like communion.
42:31
SPEAKER_04: I feel like you take yourself back there, and yeah, and and then just in some scenarios, um, I'm kind of maybe a little bit ashamed of of how I lived my life in the past sometimes, and you know, even just like maybe having arguments with my with my parents and things like that.
42:48
SPEAKER_04: I was just like, oh man, like this this isn't who I am, you know?
42:52
SPEAKER_04: And so I think when you hold this mirror to yourself for so long, it's uncomfortable.
42:58
SPEAKER_04: I would actually say life is so much easier when you don't have faith.
43:02
SPEAKER_04: And that's a you know, a big comment to make, but life is hard when you have to change.
43:07
SPEAKER_04: When you hold up the mirror and you have to look at yourself and say, I don't really like everything that I am, and I don't think I'm a bad person, and I think we all do this.
43:15
SPEAKER_04: I'm morally a good person.
43:16
SPEAKER_04: I would open the door for an old lady and help her across the street.
43:19
SPEAKER_04: But is that enough?
43:20
SPEAKER_04: You know?
43:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
43:23
SPEAKER_03: And how have you now dealt with feelings of guilt?
43:29
SPEAKER_03: Because okay, so you you do you do have a mirror up to yourself.
43:32
SPEAKER_03: Um, how does that not then descend into just self-flagellation the whole time?
43:37
SPEAKER_03: Because you know, we all fall short of the mark constantly.
43:40
SPEAKER_03: So yeah, how how does that not breed actually a sense of self-condemnation?
43:45
SPEAKER_04: I think it's understanding what sin is.
43:47
SPEAKER_04: This helped me a lot.
43:48
SPEAKER_04: So I was like, sin is the devil, which means that the devil's in me and I'm being evil.
43:52
SPEAKER_04: I had a completely misunderstanding of it until I understood the word sin just means to miss the mark.
43:58
SPEAKER_04: And this helped me so much.
44:00
SPEAKER_04: And so this kind of brings in like God's will.
44:02
SPEAKER_04: So I didn't understand what this meant, God's will, right?
44:05
SPEAKER_04: And obviously, Jesus talks about God's will and letting his will be done.
44:10
SPEAKER_04: And so it kind of relates back to um Jesus constantly refers to God as his father.
44:16
SPEAKER_04: And I'm personally of the belief that everything that Jesus said was there for us to interpret in a way that we would understand.
44:25
SPEAKER_04: So everything that he did was a mirror in how we're meant to live, and everything he said had a message for every generation across forever, you know?
44:32
SPEAKER_04: And so he constantly refers to our father in heaven.
44:36
SPEAKER_04: And he also refers to unlimited forgiveness, which I think, as any human can admit, it's almost impossible to have that.
44:43
SPEAKER_04: Like if someone killed my family, am I going to forgive them?
44:46
SPEAKER_04: Like, how would I ever have unlimited forgiveness?
44:48
SPEAKER_04: Until I started to think about well, how does a father see a son?
44:52
SPEAKER_04: And so if I'm a dad one day, I haven't got any children, but one day I will have a son, and whatever he does, whatever it is, I will forgive him.
45:01
SPEAKER_04: Unlimited forgiveness, because he is of me.
45:04
SPEAKER_04: I might not like him, you know, I might not love him in that moment, but I will always forgive my own, right?
45:09
SPEAKER_04: And anyone would, I don't think is has to be something horrific.
45:12
SPEAKER_04: And so this is how God talks about us being this father that's like, doesn't matter who you are, he completely forgives you.
45:20
SPEAKER_04: And so that that kind of clicked for that part.
45:23
SPEAKER_04: And then the second part was, you know, the father's will.
45:26
SPEAKER_04: Well, I know that um everybody has a feeling inside of them.
45:30
SPEAKER_04: And, you know, my mum always says, uh, she's my inner conscious.
45:34
SPEAKER_04: So, you know, mum and dad, they kind of show you a way to live and they have a will for you, how you want to live.
45:40
SPEAKER_04: And sorry, how they want you to live.
45:43
SPEAKER_04: They don't want you to steal, they don't want you to do drugs, they don't want you to lie, they don't want you to be horrible.
45:47
SPEAKER_04: They just want you to be happy and they want you to live as like a good person, that they can be proud of who they raised.
45:53
SPEAKER_04: And so I understand that.
45:55
SPEAKER_04: And when I've reared off from my parents' will, I already feel uncomfortable with it.
46:00
SPEAKER_04: And so then I started thinking, well, if God's my father, what's his will for me?
46:05
SPEAKER_04: And I'm someone that always has this feeling when I go to sleep that I have not done enough, that I have way more potential, that I'm like 5% into what I actually could achieve.
46:16
SPEAKER_04: And I realize that just all of the things and the ambition and the hunger, it hasn't really come from my parents.
46:23
SPEAKER_04: They they gave me amazing foundations, but I wouldn't say either of them are highly ambitious people in the same sense that I am, but it comes from somewhere.
46:31
SPEAKER_04: And so, where does it come from?
46:33
SPEAKER_04: I didn't have any successful people around me when I was a child, and so I realized that God has a will for everyone.
46:39
SPEAKER_04: And I'm not saying, you know, he some people he wants to be successful and some he doesn't, but I believe that we're all given talents from God and we all have uh unlimited capabilities.
46:49
SPEAKER_04: And, you know, I think my friend Steve is a perfect example of this.
46:52
SPEAKER_04: You know, he has pretty much no education, but he believes in himself more than anyone I know.
47:00
SPEAKER_04: And he will, in his attitude, is always well, if I just spend time learning and I just keep getting better and better and better, and I get so obsessed with it and every single detail about it, well, then then I'll be the best at that.
47:13
SPEAKER_04: And evidence has shown him that this is true.
47:15
SPEAKER_04: So he believes in himself 100%.
47:17
SPEAKER_04: There are no limitations.
47:19
SPEAKER_04: And ever since I met him, you know, decades ago now, I've never once believed that there was nothing he couldn't do.
47:26
SPEAKER_04: If he said to me, I'm gonna be the president of the United States, I'd be like, I think you probably could, you know, I think you probably could achieve that.
47:32
SPEAKER_04: If you really want to, he would be the best politician, he'd study everything, he'd learn all of the playbook, and then he would be the best because that's his personality and his belief in himself.
47:41
SPEAKER_04: And so I believe that God has a will for us, and that burning desire to want to do more is his will.
47:47
SPEAKER_04: And when we go off and we do things we're not meant to do, this is missing the mark of his will and the direction of what he wants us to go in.
47:55
SPEAKER_04: And it's also why it feels bad when you do it.
47:57
SPEAKER_04: When you say you're gonna do something, you don't do it.
47:59
SPEAKER_04: We call this integrity.
48:00
SPEAKER_04: I call it not following the will.
48:02
SPEAKER_04: And so, this to me now is I understand.
48:05
SPEAKER_04: I don't hear God say, hello, Logan, be good boy, like do this today, go and make more money.
48:11
SPEAKER_04: Like, but what I do is I feel a pull of where I'm meant to go and the direction I'm I'm meant to go in.
48:17
SPEAKER_04: And so I trust that now is that is God's will, and I feel like I hear him every day because that's that's a burning desire inside.
48:24
SPEAKER_03: That's a beautiful thing to to say and to live out.
48:27
SPEAKER_03: Um, so tell me, you you've always had this entrepreneurial spirit, you've always had a you know, up and atom kind of attitude.
48:35
SPEAKER_03: What does that mean now for you as a Christian?
48:39
SPEAKER_03: How do you how do you how do you have ambition in in a God's will kind of frame?
48:45
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's tough.
48:46
SPEAKER_04: I'll be honest.
48:47
SPEAKER_04: Uh I I used to think at first, I'm like, how is business uh and like faith, how do these two things come together?
48:55
SPEAKER_04: Like, am I starting a business selling crosses?
48:58
SPEAKER_04: Like what you know, uh how how do I do this?
49:01
SPEAKER_04: You know, or am I have I gotta go and become a priest now?
49:03
SPEAKER_04: Like, I didn't quite understand what that means until we go back and then I read the gospels again and I realized the whole thing is just full of entrepreneurialism.
49:12
SPEAKER_04: And you know, I I I personally believe that you know Jesus grabbed like the disciples.
49:17
SPEAKER_04: I think a lot of people think they're like 40 years old, but they were like teenagers.
49:21
SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, I I think it's it's referred to that, you know, maybe from like 15, 16 years old to like say 25, 26, 27 years old.
49:28
SPEAKER_04: I don't know how correct that is, but this was from when I was researching it.
49:32
SPEAKER_04: And these so you know, some of these people, you know, that they were f ups.
49:36
SPEAKER_04: They weren't doing so great.
49:38
SPEAKER_04: Um, but he helped them, he changed them, he gave them his will, his direction for them.
49:43
SPEAKER_04: And look what they did, you know, like every single one of them like changed everything for all the people around them.
49:51
SPEAKER_04: And so, yeah, I I just think that it's um you you have to you have to follow what your talent is and to not follow through with your talent, similar to the the parable of talents, right?
50:04
SPEAKER_04: It's very clear in in this parable uh that God gives you these gifts and you have to use them.
50:09
SPEAKER_04: So for me, I I've realized that I am uh uh creative and and I I have good taste, uh, as other people tell me, not my own uh proclamation, but um and and I'm good at communicating.
50:21
SPEAKER_04: So uh and and I also love history and I love detail.
50:25
SPEAKER_04: So what I have found is there are a lot of entrepreneurs that have approached me in the sort of last six months to a year, and just a lot of people in general who are asking me questions about my faith, and I can answer it, and and I understand as much as I understand, I think it takes forever to really understand the scriptures because there are just so many layers deep, and I feel like I can pick it up and I can find new things, and I'm like, how did I not see that the first time?
50:52
SPEAKER_04: Um, especially when you go through the the translations, you know, it's like what like finding out like Bethlehem is like house of bread, like again, just blew my mind.
51:00
SPEAKER_03: Um and he's put in a feeding trough.
51:02
SPEAKER_03: You know, Jesus has laid in a manger a feeding trough in the house of bread because he's the bread of life.
51:07
SPEAKER_04: It's like, oh yeah, just yeah, I mean, there's just so so so many, so so many.
51:13
SPEAKER_04: Um, but yeah, I I I believe that uh I haven't truly found like what the answer is to that, you know.
51:19
SPEAKER_04: Um, but I believe that uh, you know, God found kings and well made them kings, and you know, he found shepherds and he found all these different people in different roles.
51:30
SPEAKER_04: They didn't all become a priest, you know, um, but he found people and he used them as an example to reach other people.
51:39
SPEAKER_04: And so that that's kind of how I see it is uh I don't believe I have to have uh, you know, change my career and and try and open a church.
51:46
SPEAKER_04: Um, I just believe that I should do what I do and work really, really hard, but do it in his name and be that light to other people and that source of knowledge to people that then continues to spread his message.
52:00
SPEAKER_04: And I'm I'm not going around saying, hey, everyone, you need to learn the gospel.
52:03
SPEAKER_04: That's just not really my personality.
52:05
SPEAKER_04: But I'm not really having to because a lot of people are just coming straight to me and saying, You seem to have a lot of conviction in your faith now.
52:12
SPEAKER_04: Why?
52:13
SPEAKER_04: And and then so you know, I explain to them and I find six months later they'll ring me up and say, I think I think I've come to the same conclusion as you, you know?
52:22
SPEAKER_03: That's yeah, that's fascinating.
52:23
SPEAKER_03: Let's let's get into that in a second.
52:25
SPEAKER_03: But I I think it's just so worth um just camping out on this idea, the entrepreneurship of of Jesus, that parable of the talents.
52:34
SPEAKER_03: I don't think we see how entrepreneurial Jesus is um inspiring us to be, because the the translation is talents.
52:44
SPEAKER_03: When an ancient person heard that, they would just hear a denomination of money.
52:48
SPEAKER_03: Like they would they would just hear, you know, a king has pressed into your hands a million bucks.
52:53
SPEAKER_03: What are you gonna do with the million bucks?
52:54
SPEAKER_03: You know?
52:55
SPEAKER_03: And whatever you do, don't, you know, hide it in a handkerchief and and and bury it.
53:00
SPEAKER_03: It's like invest it, invest it, invest it.
53:03
SPEAKER_03: And I think, you know, in the in the history of the world, people haven't really known what to do with excess because people haven't usually had very much excess um down through history.
53:12
SPEAKER_03: But you you either um you either hoard it um away, you sort of bury bury your talent, or you just display it in a great monument for yourself and you build a a golden statue of of you.
53:24
SPEAKER_03: In neither of those instances um is that money going to work, in neither of those instances is that good for the economy or good for anybody.
53:31
SPEAKER_03: And suddenly Jesus comes along and he tells these stories about why don't you take what God has given you and you uh pass it on.
53:38
SPEAKER_03: And you know, there's there's a real um connection there with the the earlier part of your story, Logan, where you you meet the other guy called Anthony, and it's a real case of you know taking whatever God has given you into into your life and passing it on.
53:52
SPEAKER_03: This is the sort of the gospel economy, and actually it's it's what you know it it's it's what leads to free markets, free grace leads to free markets.
54:01
SPEAKER_03: There's this there's this sense of passing on the wealth, and you are not thereby diminished by passing on what God has given to you.
54:09
SPEAKER_03: That actually there isn't there is an increase because you have been generous and out it goes.
54:14
SPEAKER_03: So I I think entrepreneurship is is exactly what Jesus is is kind of asking us to to to to do in in in the gospels, not just with money though, you know, with with everything, with with every time, talent, and treasure that that God has given you.
54:29
SPEAKER_03: It's it's that kind of outward flow.
54:31
SPEAKER_03: Um you say it's hard to live by faith.
54:34
SPEAKER_03: Is it also like enjoyable?
54:35
SPEAKER_03: Is it also a happy thing?
54:37
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's just the uh the refinement is a hard process to go through because I'm still making many, many mistakes.
54:46
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
54:46
SPEAKER_04: Uh you know, saying things I regret, acting in ways that I regret sometimes, and and really like sitting on it and thinking about what I did when I believe in the past, I maybe maybe I would not care about these smaller details as much.
55:01
SPEAKER_04: Um, but the refinement process, in the same as starting a business and failing multiple times, which I've done so many times, um you then get to a different place.
55:12
SPEAKER_04: And so, you know, it let's take it back to its simplest form.
55:16
SPEAKER_04: You're a child and you're learning to walk.
55:18
SPEAKER_04: You fall over, you land on your face, it really hurts.
55:21
SPEAKER_04: You start crying, your mom picks you up.
55:23
SPEAKER_04: The next time they put you on your legs, do you go back down and go, I don't want to do that.
55:27
SPEAKER_04: That was kind of scary.
55:29
SPEAKER_04: Or do you just keep doing it until eventually you realize, wow, I can walk.
55:32
SPEAKER_04: And then from walking, you can run.
55:34
SPEAKER_04: And then from running, you can get on a plane and travel around the world.
55:37
SPEAKER_04: And so all of these things started from just refusing to stay on the ground.
55:41
SPEAKER_04: And and and this to me is like the simplest form of the parable of the talents.
55:46
SPEAKER_04: You've got a gift, you can use it.
55:48
SPEAKER_04: You're gonna go through some refinement as you're using it until you figure out how you actually impact other people.
55:54
SPEAKER_04: And this is like the great thing with business and entrepreneurialism.
55:57
SPEAKER_04: Like, look at Steve's podcast, right?
55:59
SPEAKER_04: It's the second biggest podcast in the entire world now.
56:02
SPEAKER_04: And yes, Steve has become extremely successful from it, and he's very well known.
56:08
SPEAKER_04: And you know, all credit to him.
56:10
SPEAKER_04: He deserves absolutely all of it.
56:12
SPEAKER_04: But you know what's more amazing is he has reached billions of people, and he will have people come up to him and they're like, I was at the worst point in my life, and I listened to one of your episodes, and it helped me so much.
56:26
SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
56:27
SPEAKER_04: They don't want anything, they just wanted to hug him and say thank you.
56:30
SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, that is the power of what you're doing.
56:33
SPEAKER_04: And I know for him, that's actually what he values more than absolutely anything else in the world, is those conversations.
56:39
SPEAKER_04: I'm sure you've had a similar thing, especially within church, right?
56:42
SPEAKER_04: And so this is following his talent.
56:45
SPEAKER_04: And I believe that if we all uh, you know, take the talent and don't wrap it up and put it in the ground and and and like hope that it stays there, but we actually take it out and we we we might even lose it at one point.
56:57
SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, we might we might drop the money, we might, the the business might fail, you might not stand up as a child.
57:04
SPEAKER_04: But in the process of that refinement, it not only advances you, but every single person around you as well.
57:12
SPEAKER_04: And the impact it has, you would never know the impact if you never stood up in the first place.
57:16
SPEAKER_04: So I think it's it's uh probably one of the the best entrepreneurialism parables in the Bible.
57:23
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, totally.
57:24
SPEAKER_03: And and let's sort of land land this plane in in that you you have found something in Jesus that has become attractive to so many, and and it's not just like Stephen's noticed it in you, it's lots of other people have started to to notice it in you.
57:44
SPEAKER_03: Um what is it do you think you can say to them?
57:48
SPEAKER_03: How would how would you um how would you advise somebody who's looking into Christian faith um for themselves?
57:55
SPEAKER_03: How how can they go pulling at the threads, some of the threads that you've pulled out?
57:59
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's that is quite a question.
58:01
SPEAKER_04: Um It really depends on the type of person they are, because I I think a lot of people actually do believe there is a God.
58:08
SPEAKER_04: I think a lot of people are agnostic.
58:10
SPEAKER_04: A lot of my friends that you know, especially through this process, I'll say, so you literally believe there's nothing at all.
58:17
SPEAKER_04: And they're all just that was it, we're all here, and and that makes sense to you, right?
58:21
SPEAKER_04: And they're like, no, you know, and then I I feel like a lot of people are spiritual, right?
58:27
SPEAKER_04: So they believe in energy transference, they believe in like uh calming, you know, the mind and the spirit, and they they believe there's a spirit, which is very interesting, right?
58:37
SPEAKER_04: Um, don't believe in God, but do believe there's a spirit inside of us.
58:40
SPEAKER_04: We're we're not just like bags of meat walking around speaking to each other.
58:44
SPEAKER_04: Um so uh I think I first, you know, I would I'd really figure out like where they stand, and then you know, if they're a logical person like me, I was like, go try and disprove it.
58:54
SPEAKER_04: I've said that to so many people.
58:55
SPEAKER_04: Like just go and rip it apart and and try and find every error you can.
59:00
SPEAKER_04: Um and then another question, this is one thing that I said to Steve, is I was like, um, because he said, Well, what if uh, you know, what if there are things that that don't add up in the Bible or there's mistakes or there's a scribal error, or you know, all of these different things.
59:15
SPEAKER_04: And and I said to him, Well, the thing is, is at first that was the thing that convinced me, but actually the two things that have really convinced me is that spiritual experience that I had on the day of Pentecost, because everything has felt different, even to the point that like I've changed the music that I listen to.
59:37
SPEAKER_04: You know, I I listen, I love like hip-hop and RB, and there's just so much like just bad talk in that, you know?
59:46
SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, I I I obviously I don't agree with like what they're saying and like whatever, but I'm like, why do I need to listen to words of things I don't agree?
59:55
SPEAKER_04: And like, what's the impact of that?
59:56
SPEAKER_04: I'm I wouldn't listen to a podcast of two people that I like really don't like and they're constantly just like spewing hate at each other.
1:00:04
SPEAKER_04: Um, so like why am I listening to music saying words that I don't agree?
1:00:08
SPEAKER_04: So I I actually came across like like so much like Christian hip-hop, and like it's amazing, like it's so good.
1:00:15
SPEAKER_04: There's so much music out there now, and there's something clearly happening because like every music artist is now switching over.
1:00:21
SPEAKER_04: So, what I what I said to Steve in that moment is that you know, you can you could pull the Bible apart and you can try and find like some kind of errors in it, but my faith is coming um not from the scripture and and the things I saw, but now my faith is coming from the experience that I actually had with God that I cannot explain um the things that have happened since then and the change that's happened within me.
1:00:47
SPEAKER_04: I said, But most importantly, do you believe that it's a good thing that I have found my faith and it's having a positive effect on me, or do you believe it's a bad thing?
1:00:58
SPEAKER_04: And I was like, and if there's a bad thing, explain to me what that is.
1:01:02
SPEAKER_04: And he said, I think it's a very good thing.
1:01:05
SPEAKER_04: He said, I actually think that Christianity as a whole is what you know, is the the values that like you know, Western civilization was built on, so you can't really argue with it because we literally live in it.
1:01:17
SPEAKER_04: Um, and so he's like, You you are a better person, you are a happier person, and I believe you're living life in a in an even better way than you already were.
1:01:27
SPEAKER_04: He was like, So I can't refute and say it's had a bad effect on you.
1:01:31
SPEAKER_04: I was like, So then worth exploring, then, hey.
1:01:35
SPEAKER_03: That's why I left it, you know?
1:01:38
SPEAKER_03: I love it.
1:01:38
SPEAKER_03: I think you're you're sort of the platonic ideal for the sort of person who's kind of coming to faith at the moment.
1:01:45
SPEAKER_03: Um, experiencing the the meaning crisis, recognizing the sinking sand of individualism and and that we've been sold a pack of lies in terms of where true uh purpose and and and joy is to be found.
1:01:58
SPEAKER_03: It's been and like a it's involved scripture, but not just you know, little little nuggets from the New Testament, but you know, large portions of scripture.
1:02:07
SPEAKER_03: You've read the Torah, you've read the Psalms, you've you know, there's been sacraments going on, you know, in terms of baptism, experience of God in terms of the Holy Spirit.
1:02:17
SPEAKER_03: And that that sense of it just works.
1:02:20
SPEAKER_03: It just works, which, you know, Stephen might be the number two podcast in the world, you know, the number one podcast in the world, Joe Rogan.
1:02:27
SPEAKER_03: That's that's kind of what he's been saying in 2025, you know, going to church every Sunday, pretty much, and saying, you know, the thing about Christianity is it it works.
1:02:36
SPEAKER_03: It works.
1:02:37
SPEAKER_03: So Logan, later on in the Stephen Butler podcast, where he has Alex O'Connor, famous atheist, uh, he has uh Dr.
1:02:44
SPEAKER_03: Kay, who's a spiritual thinker, he has Greg Kukel, um, who is a Christian apologist.
1:02:50
SPEAKER_03: And um and Stephen asks Alex, the atheist, what his advice would be to his friend, who we all know now as Logan.
1:02:59
SPEAKER_03: Um so I'd love to get your uh I'd love to get your reaction on the advice that Alex O'Connor uh would give to you.
1:03:07
SPEAKER_03: I think it's interesting.
1:03:08
SPEAKER_01: For my friend in Dubai, yeah.
1:03:09
SPEAKER_01: If he came to you and he was your friend in Dubai, yeah, and he said, My life is lacking meaning, I can't get out of bed anymore.
1:03:18
SPEAKER_01: What would you prescribe him?
1:03:20
SPEAKER_01: What would you recommend?
1:03:21
SPEAKER_01: What would you suggest as he's your friend?
1:03:26
SPEAKER_02: It's hard to know without knowing that friend.
1:03:28
SPEAKER_02: But if it seemed to me like going to church or reading the Gospels might provide that for him, then I'd probably recommend that he did that.
1:03:35
SPEAKER_02: But I think that literally the subjective feeling of meaning is is usually tied up in the identification of something that transcends your individual self.
1:03:45
SPEAKER_03: Aaron Ross Powell Now Alex goes on to say, therefore, if you're going to get in touch with something transcendent, maybe it's by reading the gospels and praying, maybe it's by reading philosophy of mind, maybe it's by taking psychedelics, you just need to get in touch with some kind of transcendent thing.
1:03:59
SPEAKER_03: Um did you did you chuckle to yourself as you as you're hearing your own story being just described on this podcast?
1:04:05
SPEAKER_03: What was what was your first response?
1:04:07
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it was a very strange moment hearing them talk about it, especially the uh prescribing what I should do.
1:04:14
SPEAKER_04: Um, but yeah, firstly, I I love Alex.
1:04:16
SPEAKER_04: I think he's great.
1:04:16
SPEAKER_04: Me too.
1:04:17
SPEAKER_04: I actually think that he's so honest um and like he's he's like really respectful with all of the conversations he has.
1:04:25
SPEAKER_04: Uh and I actually have watched so much of his stuff as well, especially when I was like going through and and doing my research.
1:04:31
SPEAKER_04: Um but yeah, I I mean I'm sure because what he's talking about is an ego death, um, which you know, death to yourself, which is so interesting because you know, Jesus already prescribes this.
1:04:43
SPEAKER_04: You know, he says, like, uh you have to kind of die to yourself, pick up the cross and follow me.
1:04:47
SPEAKER_04: Um, so I think the prescription's already there.
1:04:50
SPEAKER_04: Um, I think maybe some people try all of these other things, and you know, there's spirituality, there's uh I don't know, uh, you know, breath work, and you know, there's all of these other faiths that people can try.
1:05:03
SPEAKER_04: Um, maybe that brings them peace and happiness.
1:05:06
SPEAKER_04: I I don't know.
1:05:07
SPEAKER_04: Um, but for me, I just really want to understand is there God?
1:05:13
SPEAKER_04: So taking drugs was not really going to answer that question for me.
1:05:17
SPEAKER_04: Um, so I just went for truth.
1:05:19
SPEAKER_04: And so I spent my time digging through and trying to find the truth, and I ended up having a transcendent experience without needing to take anything.
1:05:28
SPEAKER_04: And I think that speaks for itself of just how true that experience was because I didn't want it.
1:05:34
SPEAKER_04: I didn't go in there trying to or expecting to.
1:05:36
SPEAKER_04: I actually went in sort of ready to go, ha, told you nothing happened.
1:05:40
SPEAKER_04: Um, so uh I can I can understand his advice that might that might be good for other people, but for me, that would not have actually solved anything for me.
1:05:48
SPEAKER_03: That's fascinating.
1:05:49
SPEAKER_03: It reminds me, it's it's sort of sort of like what um C.S.
1:05:52
SPEAKER_03: Lewis says in another regard, um, it's it's kind of a case of if you seek for experience without truth, you'll end up with.
1:06:00
SPEAKER_03: Neither.
1:06:01
SPEAKER_03: If you seek for truth, you'll get the experience thrown in.
1:06:03
SPEAKER_03: It's that kind of thing.
1:06:05
SPEAKER_03: So, final question, Logan.
1:06:07
SPEAKER_03: How do we, as a church?
1:06:09
SPEAKER_03: So I'm I'm a church minister.
1:06:12
SPEAKER_03: We've got a Christian YouTube channel here and Instagram and and and all the rest of it.
1:06:17
SPEAKER_03: But Christians, how how should Christians reach out in this moment?
1:06:21
SPEAKER_03: Because I think there is a moment of opportunity.
1:06:24
SPEAKER_03: How do we grasp it?
1:06:25
SPEAKER_04: I think that it's happening without anyone doing anything, to be honest with you.
1:06:28
SPEAKER_04: Right.
1:06:29
SPEAKER_04: I think that everyone is getting there on their own.
1:06:31
SPEAKER_04: No one pushed me.
1:06:32
SPEAKER_04: You know, I had Christian friends.
1:06:34
SPEAKER_04: Like that wasn't enough.
1:06:36
SPEAKER_04: You know, I watched Passion of Christ.
1:06:38
SPEAKER_04: It wasn't enough for me.
1:06:40
SPEAKER_04: Um, so I I don't really think you need to do anything apart from just what God asked us to do, which is, you know, set apart, live life a certain way, and be a conduit of information to other people that are seeking it.
1:06:52
SPEAKER_04: So, you know, in that process of um refining my understanding of the scripture, my friend like not giving me no BS and just you know very direct answers, that helped me so much.
1:07:07
SPEAKER_04: Now everybody is completely different.
1:07:09
SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, I think that, you know, across all the denominations, there's lots of things that people experience that brings them in.
1:07:16
SPEAKER_04: Um, but I can tell you one thing, which I think has had the biggest effect.
1:07:20
SPEAKER_04: In the process of this happening, I never in a million years thought that I would post anything on my social media about faith, let alone do a podcast talking about faith.
1:07:31
SPEAKER_04: Uh, everything I've ever done has been geared around business.
1:07:35
SPEAKER_04: And this is just not a side of me that I would ever.
1:07:38
SPEAKER_04: I mean, when you messaged me, I said I've never done anything like this before because of course I wouldn't share this.
1:07:44
SPEAKER_04: And uh what I found is that it's had the biggest impact on so, so many people.
1:07:49
SPEAKER_04: And I mean like hundreds and hundreds of people have messaged me, especially since your your last video that you put out.
1:07:56
SPEAKER_04: And I think I'd literally just put a comment on it saying, like, I'm the guy, and and this really did change my life.
1:08:02
SPEAKER_04: And, you know, there's just hundreds and hundreds of messages of people like in a similar position.
1:08:07
SPEAKER_04: Like, I don't really understand what I believe, but I I do feel like there's there's something more than what there is, and and and I want to know, you know, and I've messaged as many as I could, um, but it's really made me realize that people sharing is how the whole faith evolved in the first place.
1:08:23
SPEAKER_04: There was no Bible for the first few hundred years, right?
1:08:26
SPEAKER_04: So people were just telling stories of what happened, and so I'm I'm just gonna do the same.
1:08:31
SPEAKER_04: And you know, I I don't fully um, you know, I would I would definitely say I'm like a baby Christian, there's so much that I don't know, and I'm I'm happy to hold up my hands if anyone wants to re-educate me on things.
1:08:42
SPEAKER_04: Um, but I'm hungry to learn more, and I and I do believe that like even though it's a painful process to change, the hunger, it kind of like it just draws you back in constantly.
1:08:56
SPEAKER_04: And I think once you just tie like a tiny little spark in someone, you just plant that seed, you don't really need to do anything, you just let it grow.
1:09:05
SPEAKER_04: So I would just say for for you and and the church, um, that the you know, you're part of it's just about sharing the information.
1:09:13
SPEAKER_04: Um, because you know, I saw I've seen loads of your things in the past, and you know, even just your commentary on videos, it's great to hear what people think about things, and people need to be proud of their faith.
1:09:25
SPEAKER_04: And yeah, no, I I now am very proud of my faith, and and and I think some people misunderstand what that means.
1:09:32
SPEAKER_04: Um, as a Christian, you are not righteous, you know, and I think this is sometimes what pulls people away from faith as well.
1:09:39
SPEAKER_04: I am the opposite.
1:09:41
SPEAKER_04: Uh, I'm just looking at the mirror and trying to be better.
1:09:44
SPEAKER_04: Um, I'm not living in a state of uh I'm an awful sinner and and you know I should be ashamed of myself.
1:09:51
SPEAKER_04: I just accept that there is a process of change that I'm going through and I'm okay with going through that process, and that if I love more people in my life and show more love, um everything is better.
1:10:02
SPEAKER_04: And so why would other people not want that?
1:10:05
SPEAKER_04: You know?
1:10:05
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
1:10:05
SPEAKER_03: Well, you're a son with a father.
1:10:07
SPEAKER_03: You're not defined by your sin and you're not defined by your righteousness.
1:10:11
SPEAKER_03: A child a child with their parent um is not defined either by their goodness or their badness, they're in the family, and there's that confidence that they can then have that then they pass on in the world, and you've been um passing it on in amazing ways already.
1:10:24
SPEAKER_04: My understanding is the church is a hospital for the sick and needy, and it's always focused on that.
1:10:33
SPEAKER_04: Um, I'm not gonna say that like um just because you're successful, you're not sick and needy.
1:10:38
SPEAKER_04: I think there's a lot of people who are still going for a really hard time.
1:10:41
SPEAKER_05: Right.
1:10:41
SPEAKER_04: Um, but there are also just a lot of people who are happy in life, and maybe not at rock bottom.
1:10:47
SPEAKER_04: Um, and they almost overlook this because there's just not really an entry.
1:10:53
SPEAKER_04: And so uh, I mean, Jesus does say, you know, I I came to heal the sick, not the healthy, but um so I don't I don't want to go against what Jesus says, but at the same time, I think that information is really, really important, and we we may uh have for a long period of time diluted what faith is, and I I from what I see, it just continues to get diluted to the point that across some denominations, I don't even know what that is, it's just uh nice feeling for the day, and there's a danger in that because if you don't like the song or you don't like the person preaching, you're not gonna go anymore, and that does that should not be the thing that makes you uh connect to God.
1:11:38
SPEAKER_04: So I think as churches, we need to um we need to help people be part of a community, we need to be there for them to speak to, to ask questions, and I would say for many people, go deeper on the theology, like it's it's quite interesting, um, but just reading the gospel sometimes is not because uh you know even in some churches I've gone to there's they read it out, but then there's not really an explanation of anything.
1:12:05
SPEAKER_04: And so on the surface, when I was younger, I I I heard all the same stuff, but it didn't mean anything to me.
1:12:11
SPEAKER_04: It was only when I started to like actually unravel it that the genius of of Jesus comes through, and and that's that's kind of the part that for me really brought me in.
1:12:20
SPEAKER_04: Um then I would say they're probably I mean, I guess evangelizing now is media, right?
1:12:26
SPEAKER_04: Social media.
1:12:27
SPEAKER_04: Um, it's not really like that guy just screaming at someone in the street, because I I don't really think that does that much.
1:12:32
SPEAKER_04: Um, but I think if we could all be encouraged to share our faith if people ask questions and and have the knowledge to be able to answer people, uh, I would say as churches, um, that would that would massively uh expand the faith.
1:12:48
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
1:12:49
SPEAKER_03: Love it.
1:12:49
SPEAKER_03: Always be prepared to give an answer to anyone who asks you for the reason for the hope that you have, and do this with gentleness and respect.
1:12:56
SPEAKER_03: Seems like Stephen Bartlett noticed a hope in you and still notices a hope in you and is asking questions about it.
1:13:02
SPEAKER_03: Lots of other people are asking questions about it, and uh you've given us some really solid reasons uh for us all to go away and and kind of pull at the threads that you've been pulling at.
1:13:11
SPEAKER_03: And we trust and pray that uh that people will find the truth of Jesus there.
1:13:15
SPEAKER_03: And uh, as you say, you're a baby Christian, but um yeah, you're having a powerful impact.
1:13:20
SPEAKER_03: So thank you for um all that you're doing.
1:13:23
SPEAKER_03: Uh are there ways that people can can keep up with you online?
1:13:25
SPEAKER_04: Uh yeah, uh I'm on Instagram as at LoganX Noir, um Twitter, Logan Noir, uh on most things.
1:13:35
SPEAKER_04: Um but yeah, I mean I hopefully uh I would love to share more about my faith as it grows, and I'm definitely feeling more confident to do that now.
1:13:45
SPEAKER_04: And seeing the impact, you know, not for me, I I don't really care about the likes and follows stuff, but seeing the impact, uh it's something I'm passionate about, and I seem to now know a fair amount about it.
1:13:56
SPEAKER_04: So I'm happy to share with people.
1:13:58
SPEAKER_04: So anyone that like just wants to ask me questions or even wants to try and like disprove something, like show me the evidence because I spent so much time on this, and so I would happily share.
1:14:08
SPEAKER_04: I have so much, so many books, so much research, so much time that I spent on this.
1:14:14
SPEAKER_04: Um, so I would happily have conversations with anyone that wants to talk.
1:14:18
SPEAKER_04: Thank you for having me.
1:14:19
SPEAKER_04: Honestly, it's been uh such a great experience and you know, not something that I would ever do.
1:14:23
SPEAKER_04: Uh, and I think it would be great to hear like other entrepreneurs and and different types of people and hearing about like their faith journey because uh there's so many people that I've actually met and explained this to, and even it would be like the first time I was ever explaining it, and then six months later, something it's lit some kind of fire in them.
1:14:44
SPEAKER_04: Um, I think you can see already with Steve that you know he said, and I'm beginning to be curious again.
1:14:48
SPEAKER_04: Well, that hasn't come out of nowhere.
1:14:50
SPEAKER_04: I don't think that's just me, but uh, I believe this is how how God works.
1:14:54
SPEAKER_04: Um, so it would be great to hear from many different people, um, like not just apologists or theologians, but just normal people in you know their testimony and and like what happened to them and like what is it that made them so convinced?
1:15:09
SPEAKER_04: Uh, because I think it's it's fascinating.
1:15:11
SPEAKER_04: I I personally love hearing other people's story too.
1:15:13
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:15:14
SPEAKER_04: So thanks for having me.
1:15:15
SPEAKER_04: And uh yeah, I I look forward uh to hearing like seeing more of your content as well.
1:15:21
SPEAKER_04: I really love all the stuff that you're doing.
1:15:23
SPEAKER_03: Oh, thank you so much, Logan.
1:15:24
SPEAKER_03: And people can catch up with you at LoganX Noir on Twitter and Instagram, and we'll put those uh in the show notes.
1:15:31
SPEAKER_03: God bless you, mate.
1:15:32
SPEAKER_04: Take care.