Latest / Follow the Leighder / Christianity, Colonialism, and the Church's Trauma | Dr. Bradley Melle

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Christianity, Colonialism, and the Church's Trauma | Dr. Bradley Melle · Follow the Leighder

• Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well howdy folks and welcome back to another episode of Follow the Leighder. I'm your host, Leigh Larson, and joining me from Toronto today. Ooh, we went across the border, didn't we, y'all? Joining me is Dr. Bradley Melle. Welcome, Dr. Brad Melle: Hey, no no one people rarely call me doctor and that feels nice. Thank you. It's true, but yeah. I can't help Leigh/@followtheleighder: Okay. Brad Melle: anyone on a plane in an emergency, but technically I am a doctor. So Leigh/@followtheleighder: No. No, you're not gonna just bust out the PhD in Christian history. Like of course we need a doctor. And Brad Melle: I guess yeah, maybe if the history of heart attacks or something, I don't think that would help too much. Leigh/@followtheleighder: and he's like, how deep you wanna go? And they're like, No, no, no, that's that's Brad Melle: Yeah, exactly. And he's gone. Leigh/@followtheleighder: were you looking for a Socratic seminar? Like I love those. Okay. I'm so sorry, folks. Here is his introduction. as stated, historian of Christianity with a PhD from the University of Toronto, studying the very entangled, messy history of Christianity, colonialism, and indigenous peoples. His work reads the history of Western Christianity through the lens of trauma specifically, and its afterlives, tracing the church's present dysfunctions and cruelties back to the catastrophe. Catastrophes that have won them. and Dr. Melle is also the host of a freestyle of the podcast Freestyle Theology and developed the course The Body of Christ Keeps the Score, which I so appreciated. I I think I posted a meme the other day that was like the body keeps the score. This is too much, too high. Brad Melle: Yeah, yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: yeah. And and and I I thank you. for for the the work that you're doing because you really are. You're walking people through the church's broken family history. so you can they they can rethink the fa faith they inherited, heal, look at what happened, make sense of things because when you've been harmed, when you've been traumatized and you don't have an answer as to why, it's my gosh. It it it it furthers the pain. So I I so appreciate appreciate your research and scholarship. on the material. Can you talk about your upbringing? Talk about like what kind of led you to pursue Christianity from the lens of harm and trauma? were you a a Christian or was this an outsider thing you picked up? Brad Melle: Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me. Happy to share. Yes, I'll I'll try to keep it short, but raised raised Christian for sure. I was raised Moravian. There's not a lot of people who know about that. There's a couple hot spots in the US. I was raised in Alberta, Western Canada. And so the Moravian church is was sort of like It it's kind of mainline, sort of like campfire Christianity. That's what I always called it, where it's very low-key and gentle. So that was really actually a great place to grow up. But as as because our church was smaller as a teenager, we kind of outsourced our youth events to the larger things being offered by like mega churches. And the big conferences, the acquire the fire style, evangelical mega concerts. And so I got kind of sucked into the American evangelical subculture through that as a teenager. and kind of moved through all kinds of different denominations. I became very, I cared a lot about the truth. I cared a lot about being good. And I wanted that, and evangelicalism sort of gave you this package about what that looked like. Truth was very much on offer, certainty was on offer, and here's the things you should do and shouldn't do. So I kind of just jumped full into that. eventually I ended up going to I went to university, I moved out to Ontario, and ended up in the reformed Christian world. So it's kind of like an it was a real upgrade in terms of intellectual quality and sophistication. kind of got into the whole like Christian worldview stuff. and it was like my the way I describe it is my my operating system expanded. So when I was an evangelical it's like what's life about? Life's about saving souls, avoiding hell. you know, that. Then my operating system sort of was upgraded and it was reformed Christianity was about culture and creation and that the world was good and to be redeemed and all that sort of thing. So that was exciting for me. it was exciting for me to find out that wow, like God isn't gonna just destroy the world and we'll go to heaven. It was like life was about kind of the world being redeemed. It's it's interesting now because in the Christian nationalist world, they've also emerged from that same sort of intellectual environment. They just want to take over institutions in order to realize their these large goals. Eventually I kind of The thing that really captured my imagination that got me into studying church history was the the multicultural nature of Christian of the Christian church. I found that to be just astoundingly cool and beautiful, all the various translations, all the the different cultural manifestations of this faith. Even as as a kid, I always liked reading about other other religions. I shut that part of me down somewhat when I was an evangelical, because I felt like it was almost tempting me with some kind of relativism. But I just always loved reading about other religions and and their histories. And so when I realized that Christianity was not just a Western thing, that it had roots in Egypt and East Africa and Syria and Persia and I was just I found that to be really fascinating. So I started to go on this journey where I was looking for Christianities from different cultures and how how they engaged with their world and created something new. so I started out, I did my master's degree studying African Christianity. That was my first real encounter with I went in kind of naively, thinking I can't wait to find this these beautiful. I studied Christianity in northern Nigeria. So it's a very an Islamic region. but there was a small Christian minority there. That's what I studied. So I was excited to read about this, you know, this new form of Christian faith in a northern Nigerian context. It was my first time encountering colonialism. Because all my sources were written by British imperialists or American missionaries. And so I was sifting through the sources trying to find the African story in it. But that was a real challenge because there's a l there was a lot to sift through. As I then moved into my next phase, my doctorate, I decided that I had this, I had the same exact goal. I wanted to discover this di the diversity of Christianity. And and and loved it. Not because it was a bad thing, but because it was a good thing. And I decided I should I care a lot about, you know, in in in Canada. When I started my doctorate, which was in 2014, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was sort of all over, kind of reckoning, coming to terms with the residential schools or Indian boarding schools, the abuse and destruction that the church and the state caused for Indigenous life. That was in the air. That was everywhere. And so I was like, you know what? I should devote myself to studying. indigenous peoples and Christianity. Take my same kind of questions, but bring it closer to home. And I went on that same, I entered it naively. It's a strange little thing. It's like I didn't learn my lesson. I came in and I was thinking, I can't wait to see like what did the what did the Hoden Ashone do with the gospel? What did it mean to them? What did the Anishanaveg do with the gospel? What did it mean to them? The Lakota, the, you know, every I was excited about this tapestry I imagined. But what I discovered instead. was what really was there, which was this all this destruction, this wasteland, this abuse and an attempt to eliminate these people and their cultures and their ways of life and kind of wipe them from the face of the earth. And it was Christians that led the charge. Real, devout, they weren't, you know, people are like, well, they weren't real Christians. They absolutely were. They were in fact the most devout. That's why they were doing what they were doing. And so it finally something sunk in. And I was like, what on earth would why did people think that this was a good thing? Why did Christians think that it was a good thing to support the kidnapping of children from their families and raising them in some boarding school where they were abused and then spit out? on the other end. And Because of some things I was going that was hap some of the things that I was struggling with personally at the time, which was mainly health and mental health. I had like developed a chronic illness as an adult and my body kind of broke down and then my mind followed. I was doing a lot of reading about like panic attacks. Cause I I had developed this really crippling panic disorder where Eventually my world was so small I couldn't leave my home anymore. I was like became agoraphobic. And so it's like this is all gonna come together. There was like this convergence of things. where I I w I took a course on kind of dealing with panic attacks, some online thing, so I didn't have to leave my house. I discovered that what was really happening was that my body was misfiring. It was perceiving danger where there was none because of what I had gone through with my illness. It was perceiving danger and trying to keep me safe by keeping me inside and locked in my room. And when I realized that, something kind of opened up in me. I felt compassion for myself. I was I was like, I this thing that is ruining my life is an attempt to protect me. And it kind of that was my my first step towards healing and was that step of compassion for myself. I started to be able to go outside again. I could see like I could remind myself that I'm not actually in danger. It's okay. That kind of that kind of thing. But it it caused something to happen intellectually, which was I started to wonder what these these devout Christians abusing indigenous children, they couldn't just be villains. Like they're people. They're they're not just villains. And that story is too simple, too cheap. So I started to ask a new question, which was what happened to Western Christians that made them ever think this was okay. And ever since then I've been peeling away at this onion of being like, Where's the pain? Because most dysfunction, most abuse doesn't originate from a place of malice. It comes from some wound that's been covered up buried deep down. And that's kind of why and how like that's what I study now. I look at Christianity and I try to find locate the wounds that shaped it and try and connect that to the dysfunctions that we experience if we're if you're in the church or ever have been. So when you go looking for those wounds, you'll find them because shock you how did I never see this? Of course. The church's first 300 years are lived in oppression. How did that how did we not like see that that formed it deeply as being afraid of the outside world and you know? So that's kind of my that's my story of how I got to to be thinking this Leigh/@followtheleighder: even Brad Melle: way. Leigh/@followtheleighder: it's a it's a heck of a claim. I mean to to to make the argument that even Jesus I mean like not even Jesus but like Christianity formed as a trauma response to empire. That Brad Melle: Right. Leigh/@followtheleighder: and their hero was martyred. Like the Christian hero was was martyred as which would would then further the trauma, your leader. It's like it's like there is so much to be said. I mean Well, and I look at particularly How positions of power attract, you know, just toxic people or wounded people who need that power dynamic. I like the that pulpit comes with a lot of power and influence. And if Brad Melle: Mm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: you've had If you've had a certain tri if you've had a certain wound, I mean you will stand up there from the pulpit and you will you'll you you'll bleed with a lot of people. Can you talk about some of the ways when you say like look at all of this, look at the history. I'd like to go a bit deeper. there, Brad Melle: Mm-hmm. Sure. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I know, but you sorry, I have my questions pulled up, bang, sorry. Brad Melle: No worries. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Can you talk about how some of these things, particularly suppression of women or demonization of autonomy, purity culture, all these things, persecution complex, that's another one. antagonism towards doubt. Can you talk about those as symptoms of a fear, the programming behind that? Brad Melle: Yeah, let me think of what's the way that I no no, Leigh/@followtheleighder: I know that's a really big question. Brad Melle: it's it's big, but that just means there's there's this there's lots of bits and pieces that we can we can look at. I have this tendency, I mean I think it might be like the academic in me where sometimes I'm like, okay, I have to explain kind of everything for the points to land. But then what I what I do, and this is one of my great like weaknesses that I've had to resist is I end up getting lost in the details and I'm like, what am I what's my point again? Right? So I'm trying to resist any tendency to do that. I'll take one that's like kind of just fresh off off my mind from my teaching, because I'm my body of Christ keeps the score classes is going on right now. I do it every Wednesday and Thursday. with two different groups. So it's kind of fresh in my mind. But my goal is to help people understand why the Western Christian tradition looks the way it does. So that being Catholic, Protestant, Evangelicals, Pentecostals. So because their experience historically is sort of contained and unique and distinct from, say, the experience of Christianity in the Greek world or the Syriac world, different, the West. The Christianity that we know, that we know in the West emerged from the collapsed society of Rome. It emerged out of the shambles of the Western Empire, which fell apart in the fifth century or the four hundreds. The Eastern Roman Empire did not fall apart in the fifth century. It lasted in some form until the fourteen hundreds, based out of Constantinople. But in the West, they kind of their world fell apart in the fifth century. And what it did is it created, as happens, it collapsed societies, it created vacuums of power. So across the 400s, You slowly people's like they might not have noticed it like but over time everything was was eroding. So it's like, hey, there's no more like court. There's no more magistrates. Our civic infrastructure is falling apart. We don't have like no one's fixing the roads anymore. there's no one to go to when we need like legal help. That's the experience of of of the Latin people in the West. And before like as they they wake up and they're like, our world isn't the same as it was. It fell apart. There's people from the north who we used to were we were terrified of, the Germanic peoples and tribes. And into this world where there was vacuums of power, the only institution that kind of from the old world, the old life that remained was the church. And so the chur the if I can say kind of the thesis of this section in just a sentence, it's that the world collapsed and the church stepped in to fill those gaps. It took responsibility, it took control. A bishop became something of like the mayor almost of the town. Bishops and priests were involved in like municipal affairs and aqueducts and water quality and sanitation and food distribution, right? So the church stepped in and took control. And I I have discovered that that experience, which we would now look at and be like, I guess they did what they had to do. They did the right thing. People were thankful. They were thankful. They were, in fact, they were kind of desperate for someone to do it. And I now I'm like, that's the source of so much of the church's issues with control and domination. It's even if it's not conscious, it's like the church needs to be at the center of society. People are safe when the church is at the center of society. People are ordered when that's what gets kind of woven into the Western Christian mind. And Anytime that that's threatened, the church will respond with would would respond with violence in order to reestablish that. So for the past 300 years, with the rise of secularism, which also comes out of religious trauma, I can talk about that later. the society has been trying to push Christians just A little bit out of the center. Not like, and immediately, like once that happened, it was like all the alarm bells started going off, and Christians just responded so immaturely and kind of ridiculously to the changing of society as they clamor to get back to the center. And I think what we're seeing right now with With Christian nationalism. And I know there's a lot going on with it. It's not just reducible to one thing. But there is a real, this frantic, desperate, animal-like energy to reclaim institutions and make society the way it needs to be, whether people like it or not. And I'm like, I've seen this a million times. I've seen Christians do this a million times as I've read the history books. This is nothing new. This is what they do. Because this is an unhealed wound. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Appreciated you're talking about secularism as a response to religiosity, religious trauma. Can you talk about I mean we see that very clearly in the writings of Thomas Jefferson when he's looking around, he's like, We're not doing this. And James Madison for that matter, John Locke. and Brad Melle: Exactly. Leigh/@followtheleighder: these men, by the way, were influenced and quote, raised. informed by Christianity, but where deists are sort of co-opened by the time that they were adults. Can you I I want to talk about that because I see secularism as an institutional level, as I just stated with all our founding, not all, but founding fathers. But also atheism, when an individual gets harmed. Like we we s Brad Melle: Mm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: which atheism I guess is just the personal version of secularism. I don't know if secularism is what we call it for the society, but and there's a lot of validity, I guess, in what I in the construction of a secular society. I've talked like I I absolutely support what the separation. there's also a lot of validity of walking away from all organized religion and finding yourself and looking at that. How Kind of talk about like what I'm saying, the validity of it, but also the the harm that might be there too. If you could. And we can start at the secular state level and then if you want to touch on individual atheism or agnosticism, you can. Brad Melle: Sure, yeah. And feel free to jump in. Feel free to jump in anytime and be like, what about this? Yeah. Because this was a huge revelation to me. Because in the in the Reformed Christian circles I was in, secularism was painted as this story of at some point, like people collectively in the West turned away from God. And often in in the reformed world, they locate that first in the Renaissance and then they connect this of the Renaissance and then they connect it to the Enlightenment. And so for a long time I was just like, yeah, I guess that just happened. I don't know why it just happened. For some reason, society started turning away from God. And then I, you know, as I'm going through the material trying to like peel these layers back, I'm like, when did secularism really emerge? And I was like, well, it looks like it the the first things that we might call secular documents are the like you mentioned, Locke, like the the things about toleration. Right? It's it starts with a conversation about tolerance. And you're like I was kind of like, why wait a second, like you don't talk about tolerance just for no reason. You talk about tolerance because something is not working. And if you just you just just look at the chronology, what immediately precedes the rise of these conversations about tolerance, and it's the the 30 years' war. And the thirty years war is the great war of Protestant versus Catholic. it happens from 1618 to 1648. I know there's a lot more going on in it than just religion, but that is what started it. That's what fueled it. And for Europe, that was for them, up until World War I, that was always cited as the most destructive war that had ever been experienced. There was no comparison to any other war before that. And so what you had is this period of Competing Christianities attempting to like win, to win back what they had lost in the Reformation. Because the Reformation, what they had lost, was the one unified Christendom. People took so much comfort. The Middle Ages was the Middle Ages was like, for all its upheaval and stuff and war, they had one church that people knew. If I belong to this church, I'm good. I'm saved. yeah, I might have to spend time in purgatory after death working off my punishments, but so be it. I'll be on my way to heaven. People felt a sense of security. The Reformation blew that up. And then for so for 150 years after Luther, it's this it's like you have lost your sense of footing and certainty. It's all in competition now. And Protestants are trying to be like, we're the right Christians. And Catholics are like, of course we are. Like, look at right. And we need to get Christendom back together. We need to get the family back together again. And what the third year, what the 30 years war represents is just the utter failure of that project. There is, we cannot reconcile. Every time we try to, it ends up in blood, in bloodshed. And so people start to go, this is like a grief moment. Locke is Locke is writing in a grief moment where Europe Christianity has exhausted itself and it's kinda like we need a different way to structure society. We gotta we gotta stop trying to build it on Christianity because we know what happens. We have you know, we know what happens now. And the other factor that's happening right at the exact same moment that gives the this push to something new even more energy is science. Because at a time when religion has lost its legitim, its public legitimacy, it can't be trusted. Its authorities are in conflict with each other. You have this other movement happening where people are like, we actually do have a way, a new way, a very promising way of finding certain knowledge. And you can just imagine how how that answered the hunger that people were dealing with, right? So it's like science and arguments for toleration. That's what I mean when I say secularism emerged from from trauma, religious trauma, the ashes of a destroyed Europe. This religion of peace that consumed them and took their lives, you know? Leigh/@followtheleighder: And I I want to add to your point about church being at the church needing to feel at the center of society to have control, particularly and you bringing up science and how both that answered things for some people, but it also shook people. astronomy is a big one. When you start talking about how the sun was the center of the universe, not the earth. And folks are going down a little rabbit hole because I want to go back. This is this is the Brad show right now. But this is like just what you're saying is so real. was it Copernicus? Now I'm drawing a blank on the name. But Brad Melle: Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: when they came back with that, we go around the sun and that the Brad Melle: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: church is not the center of the universe, therefore the church is not the center of the earth and therefore the center of the un it shook people. They're like, What do you mean? Like it it was huge. I in the way that The Darwin was huge in in that it shook people. Brad Melle: Very similar. I know Copernicus didn't even publish his findings till after he died because he knew what would what would happen. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Same. There's a an excerpt or something I read in a class about Darwin who talked about he knew that he had he like was confident in his work, but he was watching his wife and her sister talk about their Catholicism in the kitchen. And he was like, I don't I don't know if I can tell her what I've just discovered and and and like Brad Melle: I don't know. Leigh/@followtheleighder: wrestling with that. Like, And it's huge. I mean, like it it is. It'll and going back now we're seeing since the sixties, seventies, eighties, the rise in the science of s the scientific theologies, the quantum theologies. We're seeing a lot of people make those efforts to explain at the micro level this massive abstract thing. So I do wanna I wanted to really give give that point of all of it, some real credence because when new information and new science comes to the to the forefront, it does shake religion. It it it does. And and and that's that's a fascinating point too, especially because we're looking at things like AI and controlled media and like really, really big scary things too. Brad Melle: Yeah. I know that even even my personal experience as a human being, to get as general as possible, the more that like I pour over the expanse of the universe, not like not just going around the sun, but you know, it has it has deeply shaped me in a way that I I never I didn't actually notice until I don't know, it's it's It was it's very disorienting when you realize like we're what we're on this like blessed rock in the middle of nothingness and it goes on forever and ever on basically. And I I have found that it it has formed me deeply. So I can't imagine what it was like when you had a church back in like the 1600s saying, like, kinda we know how everything works. And that curveball that Copernicus and then Galileo threw in was whew. So Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. And and then you see it, I mean, birth control was a big one too. and and conscious, I mean that was another what do you mean you can control life? Like that is a crazy statement. And Brad Melle: Hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: again, you have these big issues and and it's interesting to see how the church responds to those big advent I don't know, information technologies, whatever you want to call them. 'Cause you see the split and you see like you see people go into camps and then you see people immediately start demonizing or like the other. And like you have this like you're an idiot Christian for believing that, or you're some faithless, secular, godless, I don't know, intellectual. Pick a pick a derogatory phrase for either one. But point being it's and and then communication shuts down. Like I think about that a lot. Brad Melle: Mm-hmm. And then we get deeper into our camps, build our walls. If there's if there's something I can add, like just to to kind of what you're saying, because it this has started to dawn on me recently. You say when you ask what what does the church do in reaction? What I'm noticing happens, let let me just take this back to the secular the time of after the thirty years' war, okay? Because what follows the thirty years war is the peace of Westphalia, which is really where that's it's an exhaustion agreement, really. It's not a this is exciting. We're on the verge of a new era of different nation states. It's a it's a compromise. And so Europe kind of fractures into nation states. And what they do is they do not embrace, like, I guess we have to just let people kind of worship the way they want. What they do is they say, okay, so we can't have Christendom. We can't have the unified Western Church, but we could have. England that has one church. We can't have France that's Catholic. Spain will be Catholic. Every kingdom or nation will choose its one unified religion. So it's kind of like I don't see that as an adaptation. I see that as okay, we can't have the whole thing. Well, at least we'll exercise control at the national level. And when that gets threatened, it's kind of like The Christian tendency is to move down to being like, where can I exercise control? And I think for a lot of evangelicals, from what I can see and hear in their stories of deconstruction and all that, is where they experienced it most was at the level of family. A family was kind of like a little Christian empire, with like a father exercising the authority. And you weren't allowed to read these kind of books or have these kind of ideas or say these kind of things. And I'm just like, that really rhymes with Christian Empire just operating at the mic at a micro at a micro level. But to me, it's the same kind of impulse towards we have to be able to control. If we can't control America or our our community, at least we can make sure that our family like will be. One will be unified. So I'm noticing that that's one of the ways that Christians tend to respond. Rarely is it one of letting go of the dominance thing completely and embracing the wild thing of letting people kind of go their own direction and s and trusting that you. you'll rema you'll be okay. You know what I mean? Because you mentioned autonomy and autonomy is is such a is demonized so much, especially women's autonomy. and all these things about like, you know, choosing your own path and and it's it's all demonized. And there's like you're gonna d be deceived. You're gonna end up in alone and like in your life in shambles and I'm just finding that that's not actually true. That people don't just when they leave Christianity, don't just go and blow up their life. That they actually go somewhere good and healthy. I don't know. I I have a lot of thoughts on autonomy just from a personal level, but that's what I'm noticing. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. You do see like the the wilding out too, like 'cause there are so many rigid rules about sex, dress, jobs. Brad Melle: Mm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: language too. You know, here's something interesting. I just brought up language. Actually, back up. I wanted to make a note during your your your spiel about the Protestant Reformation, I found in my notes cause I was looking at the relationship between Jews and Christians throughout Christian history, in light of this the rhetoric that's coming out of the United States Pentagon. and and I found that the first ooh now I'm getting It's like 1533, was the first time that there's any mention that Christians and Jews could have some sort of alliance. And it's because it was a response to the Protestant Reformation. They were looking around, they're like, Well, now we're enemies with the Catholics, and because we were Catholic, Muslims were our enemies. So now we don't have Catholics or men like who do we who could possibly be aligned with us in something. And that's and it's in a letter to somebody like, have we considered our Hebrew brothers and sisters? Like kind of thing. And it was just like, I'll I'll find it and send it to you. But it was and then like and then like another letter a hundred years later talks about It's out of the Netherlands talking about perhaps there is some relationship to be had with our Jewish brothers and sisters. Like there's like clearly some openness coming because they're no longer welcomed with the Catholics. Brad Melle: Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And I thought that was particularly interesting. All these like returning and like, you know, enemy of my enemy is my friend or type thing. and it is very chess and warlike. Brad Melle: Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Institutionally. Brad Melle: The way I I just I I have never I never heard that. I'd love to actually see that. if you can locate that source. That's really something. Because what it makes me think is the image that I often use when I'm talking about the Reformation is of I I often call it like the family fractures. And the way I tell the story, I tend to kind of be like Protestants. We're like this. I emphasize it like. May it's a little more monolithic, which isn't accurate. But when you're teaching, you have to keep things shorthand. But in when when something fractures, that means there's all kinds of cracks. And in those cracks, new kind of developments can happen. So it's not surprising to me that there would be certain individuals who would say, Hey, you know, for for centuries our the Jewish neighborhood over there, like kind of ghettoized in our village, has been like they've been kind of persecuted by by Christians. And now we're experiencing that. Maybe we can maybe there it like you're saying maybe there is an alliance to be had or something. Like this idea had just dawned on people. Something. It's obviously not Leigh/@followtheleighder: Something something. Right. Right. Like they were Brad Melle: the the primary thing that happens. Leigh/@followtheleighder: It's it's really I gets fast and it does. Like you bring it down to the family unit. If you have a dysfunctional family, I tot I've done that myself where I'm like, I'm going to that other cousin. Like I know that other cousin's like knows what I'm talking about. Like Brad Melle: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: and so it is it's funny that it's just human beings and It's not funny 'cause of the harm, but it is funny in this like almost like cute little behavioral science study way of like, look at these people just winging it all the time. No one really knows what's going on, do they? Nobody. Brad Melle: I love that. That's life. That's history. We're winging it and we're winging it and saying Yeah. Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: That's just just and people got really, really hurt. one of How we've we've talked about trauma a lot. Can you talk about ways that organizations or institutions continue to cause trauma? How they how and how they they mechanize? Cause I know you talked about adaptation a little bit. What what have you seen over time that the church has done to adapt and maintain control? Some things that pop out to you. Brad Melle: that's great. Great question. just I mean the first place that I went to when you're asking that question was The reason the the the I just have to s preface it with this. The other reason that I started studying kind of bringing trauma to history was because when you do indigenous history, you have to do that. There's no way to understand like if you if you look at indigenous history and you're trying to understand like what happened here, intergenerational trauma is absolutely necessary as a way to understand. Like, you know, for a lot of people, the first in Canada at least, the first connection that was made is like what happens when you're ripped away from your family and raised by an institution, the residential school, and then you go have your own children. You don't know how to be a parent because you haven't learned how to do that. And immediately like the light starts going off. You're like, of course. How could you don't have the tools? You don't have the and you see how it gets replicated, right? Intergenerational trauma, though, a lot of people, when they talk about that, are interested in the like epigenetic version, which is like that it actually affects the expression of genes across time. And that's true. That tends not to be what I'm talking about because I'm talking about like trauma within institutions. And that is usually kind of you are raised in a particular institution and a way to approach the world. You learn what is you learn even just by watching Leigh/@followtheleighder: Ha ha ha. Brad Melle: body language, right? You learn what is safe and dangerous, what your posture is to the outside world. And that's reinforced through story. And so I find within the church the way that it has the main vehicle by which it has carried on and kind of passed on its trauma is not genetic, biological. It is through culture, the cultures it creates within its institutions. and so something like even something just like the history or sorry, the experience of the the stories told about hell. The when a child encounters that, they their nervous system activates as if this is real. It's not some it's not harmless to tell these like terrifying stories about the way the real the universe really is, is that you'll be you're in danger of being tortured forever. Like a human nervous system isn't can't handle that kind of story. So it's like that's what I'm that's just the most point pointed example of how it gets transmitted through just the speaking of truth. And the church carries with it this like sense of authority. And when you're young, they like when I was a teenager, and I'm like, I want to be good. I want to be, I want the truth. And they're like, here it is. Like I ate it right up. It was, you know. So That's just on the point of how does it get transmitted. I know that wasn't exactly what you asked, but I felt like that's a necessary component to to kind of understand exactly what a design means. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, and to say you can't start to understand the mechanism of institutional church harm without looking at indigenous is history is Nort North American especially. I can't speak for other continents, but absolutely. I mean I I live out in Montana. not twenty minutes away is a boarding school, the Ford Shaw. it's got some cool history. Actually, we can talk about it different at another time. But But I mean, like you're saying, and for folks who aren't familiar with what Dr. Melle and I are are are talking about, the Christian denominations in the eighteen hundreds. I mean, they had already been doing this since they got here, but really after the big scramble and the civil war and there was all sorts of the eighteen hundreds was a busy time in the United States, at least for us. really the settlement out west, taking of indigenous lands, the killing of the bison. if you go and read some of these documents that are written by both clergy or government officials, it's I mean, it is dehumanizing. It is not like, well there's some people and we might have to relocate them and or maybe we'll do the mm mm. No, it is it's brutal language. and It's it's stuff that you almost have to show people and be like, a pastor wrote this. A pastor encouraged his flock to go out and take the land from these savage people and encouraged women. I mean, the women's Christian history books on that too, motivating Brad Melle: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: women to go settle and birth the West. This is your divine mandate as a woman. purify it, Christianize it from these quote, savage Indian women. I mean. That was in writing, folks. This is not me being like hysterical in 2026. This is like real stuff. And so thank you for saying that like just turning right around and and getting honest, like who were some of the most harmed, at least in North America? Indigenous, indigenous people, especially. And you look at the way too that the Christian church wielded political power to prevent Indigen Native American faith expression. you're in Canada. I know I'm in the United States, we're starting to conflate policies, but I know that they're also roughly around the same time unfolding in some of the sentiments. And they have different Brad Melle: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: they have they have their differences because it's Canadian and American, but it's patterns of white Christians. can you can you talk about How d how in their minds they truly thought that they were saving the world. I mean, like you were saying, their convictions, these women thought they were being pious. I'm also you think about Catholic nun I mean, I think about like Christian women, Catholic nuns who stood at the when the train rolled in and kids just got off the train that were kidnapped. from Indian from Native American villages and these Catholic nuns were like, Yes, good. I'm saving you. Now I'm going to teach you. Brad Melle: And the s Leigh/@followtheleighder: Good. Brad Melle: the school is your mother now was what they Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Brad Melle: said. Leigh/@followtheleighder: This is this is very real, listeners, for those who are not too well versed or familiar with with the Christian harm on on Indigenous people in North America. And for and I mean you could say that Africa, South Asia, I mean Middle East, we could we could go on. But for your story, thank you. When you look at these stories again, we talk about how they are convicted in their missionary domination. Dominionism work. Can you f are there institutions that are are are are good or are they all just self-serving? Like I mean, do can we believe in things, Doctor? What do we do? I know it's a heavy question. Brad Melle: I mean I I think that I absolutely think like communities of people are the only sort of committed to a s common goal are the only things that can really change anything. Like something I say that I'm I often I'm like I no single person can this sounds really like depressing, but it's like no individual can make huge difference but one community can make a huge difference I think I I believe that very much but I don't what I would say now is kind of just intention doesn't really matter enough. I I actually use Jesus's kind of way of assessing truth which is fruit. you know a thing by its fruit to that's how you judge whether a thing is good or not, not based on intention intention. And the problem with the fruit thing is fruit can take a while to show. Like an action doesn't immediately show fruit. Fruit takes maybe a generation to or two to like grow. So that's what I'm trying to do as a historian, trying to be like, first of all, like there's a lot of bad fruit. And we know bad fruit. Why? Not because we can logically defend it, but because we can taste it. We know it tastes bad and makes people sick. And so when I look at something like the Christian mission to the various Christian missions to indigenous peoples in North America, the fruit is obviously vile and bitter. Like there's no doubt about that. So I don't know how to answer the question, are there good institutions? I'd say I I mean it's probably like the the classic, it's it's all a mix, but I know now that in the same way that a family with problems and sometimes really serious problems, addictions and like violence and stuff, there's no possible way to heal if you just say, like, I promise I won't do this anymore. We're gonna be different. Guaranteed you won't be. But if you start going back into the story for some, I actually find this really fascinating. It going back into the story, it it does something. It'll it enables what this is the way I've settled on describing it to my students. Is history is not like magic. It doesn't fix things, it doesn't absolve people of anything. It's just But there's something about it that when you when you open up the past, something in your heart grows. You feel compassion when you learn that your grandma, who immigrated, scrimped and saved for 20 years and never, you know, suffered. And it's like, that's why I have we have such a scarcity mindset in our family. And you feel empathy and love. For your grandma, even if she hurt your family because of that. So it's like it doesn't absolve, but it re what's the word? It's like it changes your relationship to the past, which changes your relationship to the present and then future. So yeah. When I look as Leigh/@followtheleighder: I I Brad Melle: a Canadian and As an American. I mean you you're in Montana. Did you grow up in Montana? Leigh/@followtheleighder: Texas. Brad Melle: Okay. I grew up in Alberta, so it's kind of like their their cultures are more similar there than Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, there they are. yeah. Brad Melle: But I I I just know deep in my bones that reconciliation work, kind of a a better future is is not possible by just being like by promising to do better. We have to like feel the loss that I for my it's like my ancestors rot on this country. I have to feel that. And I was excited back in The early 2010s, because it seemed like Canadians were actually interested in collectively doing that. I was like, I can't believe this is happening. We really want to sit with this painful history and feel it. And it's like it lasted for like two seconds. And then you have like, well, this is enough. Enough of this. It's getting ridiculous. We need to be able to move on. I'm sick of feeling guilty. And you're like, we literally just sat down. To start this and we're already at the like I'm I'm storming out of here. So I don't know if you if you noticed that, but that's what I I felt. I was like, or Leigh/@followtheleighder: yeah. Brad Melle: or with Me Too, or with Black Lives Matter, it's like we literally Leigh/@followtheleighder: Eyes matter, yeah. Brad Melle: sat with it for two seconds before it was Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, all of Brad Melle: ridiculous and we we we just have to move on. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Yeah. Brad Melle: No. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And Brad Melle: Generational. This is a generational thing. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And now we're blasted with such horrible information by global leaders every day that it's like numbness. Like it went from like, we should care. And then it was like, mmm, and then it was like, You're not gonna care about anything. Like we're gonna make it so your heart breaks every time you look online. But Brad Melle: That is exactly it. That's exactly that's the best way to describe it. We're gonna care. And then that whole flooding the zone thing and the heart is just like Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, I thought we were going this way. Well, Brad Melle: Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: we, you and I, are running out of time and I want my followers and listeners to learn more from you. We didn't even touch your the body of Christ keeps the score or your podcast or other things. It's such a rich conversation. I do hope that you will return. but in the meantime, please let know how my my folks can follow you and and learn more about what you're up to. Brad Melle: Sure, I'll just there's there's one thing that I'm really excited about that I wanted to mention. so yeah, if you want to if you want to follow me, I online I go by freestyle theology. I came up with that because I liked the idea of the notion of freestyling in rap because you have to know rap really well in order to say something new. And I was like, theologically, like I know things. traditional Christianity. So let's like say new things. That's why I called it that. And it's just kind of the name. So you can follow me at Freestyle Theology, mostly Instagram is where I I exist. But I'm cre right now, I am creating this new course that I'm super excited about with two other guys, Joash Thomas and Brian Recker. Leigh/@followtheleighder: no. Brad Melle: And we are yeah, we are creating a a course with the three of us called the history of hell. And I'm basically Leigh/@followtheleighder: Sweet. Brad Melle: the three of us are going to do that thing I was saying with history where you Where you, if you can understand that hell started somewhere and evolved and changed, then what will happen is the hell that lives inside your nervous system and mind too will start to like loosen its grip. Cause you're like, wait a second, I thought this was absolute and obvious and just in the Bible. But you start to realize the hell that you believe in or that you fear came from somewhere. I would argue in like the four or five hundreds and I can pinpoint it for you and you'll you'll feel the release. It's really, it's really cool. So right now we're working on it. If you want to, we have a wait list so that you can get updates on it. And right now that's just on my website, bradlymala.com slash hell wait list. So you can sign up for that and you'll hear about that. But that's the project I'm really excited about. Our goal is for it to be launched in the middle of the fall. So so yeah, that's that's Leigh/@followtheleighder: I'm so excited. Brad Melle: yeah, me too. Like I'm excited to see it op come to fruition and look at it as a whole. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Brad Melle: But yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I I'm gonna need y'all to come back and talk on the podcast about that. I love the history of hell. it's a it's a it's a great education and and followers. I hope you check that course out because he's right. Once you understand where it came from, you're like, What? kind of dissolves a lot of the power. In fact, that's a great thing to end on. My one of my good friends in middle school, I remember one very evangelical girl told her that she was like, Caroline, I'm just so scared for you that you're just you're gonna go to hell. And Caroline was like, Well I don't even believe in a hell. So what is that? That did nothing to me. I and and this girl who gave the insult was like, What? Like didn't know what to she Brad Melle: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: was like, I just gave you my worst insult. And she was like, and like and it was just I'll just ever yeah yeah Brad Melle: It's our biggest gun. Leigh/@followtheleighder: just and what but anyway I have so enjoyed this conversation freestyle theology. This has been an episode con chatting with Dr. Bradley Melle, PhD in Christian history up in Toronto. Thank you so much for joining us. Folks, I hope you enjoyed this. I had such a nice time. Let me know what your your comments are in the comment section, of course. And don't forget to like, follow, subscribe. You know the drill. This has been another episode of Follow the Leighder. I'm your host, Leigh Larson, and until next time, see ya.