Latest / UNMASKED with Wesley Farnsworth / EP 74 - Moral Injury: The Hidden Wound That Keeps People Stuck | Dr. Larry Brant

Transcript

EP 74 - Moral Injury: The Hidden Wound That Keeps People Stuck | Dr. Larry Brant · UNMASKED with Wesley Farnsworth

0:00
Some wounds don't bleed, but they still haunt you.
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We talk a lot about PTSD. We talk about trauma.
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But there's another kind of injury that doesn't come from
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what happened to you. It comes from what you did, what
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you didn't do, or what you were ordered to do.
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It's the weight of conscience, the quiet replay in your head,
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the spiritual fallout that no one prepares you for.
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And here's the harder truth. The church often doesn't know
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what to do with it. Today we're talking about moral
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injury, what it is, why it's devastating, and why ignoring it
0:41
is costing men their faith, their families, and sometimes
0:45
their lives. If you've ever wrestled with
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guilt that, if you've ever wrestled, oh man.
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If you've ever wrestled with guilt that prayer alone didn't
0:57
seem to fix, this conversation is for you.
1:07
Welcome to Unmasked, where we take off the filters and get
1:09
real about faith, failure, and finding freedom.
1:13
I'm your host, Wesley Farnsworth, a dad, veteran,
1:16
author, and a man who's learned that God does his best work in
1:20
the middle of our mess. Each episode we have honest
1:23
conversations with people who have walked through addiction,
1:25
pain or doubt, and with pastors, leaders and everyday believers
1:30
who are learning to live and lead authentically.
1:34
So take a breath, pull up a chair, and let's get real.
1:37
This is Unmasked. Today on UNMASKED, I am joined
1:48
by Doctor Larry Bryant. He is an active duty Navy
1:52
chaplain, a combat veteran who has spent years walking with
1:56
Sailors, Marines and families through PTSD, trauma and moral
2:01
injury. His work is deeply cry centered
2:03
and grounded in frontline experience, not theory.
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In his recent writing, he challenges the church to stop
2:10
overlooking moral injury and to begin sitting with the
2:13
spiritually wounded in a way that leads to real restoration.
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Today, we're talking about that. We're talking about what moral
2:20
injury actually is, why is different from trauma, and what
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the church and men of faith need to understand if we're going to
2:29
lead responsibly. Dr. Bryant, thanks for being
2:33
with us here today. I'm super happy to be here with
2:36
you, Wes. I was looking forward when you
2:40
sent me the first message and we had some back and forth about
2:42
your story and and your journey. And I just as we were going back
2:46
and forth, I knew that you were a good match for this show and I
2:49
know that you'll bring some value here to the unmasked
2:51
audience. So I'm really looking forward to
2:53
hearing what you have to say. And so let's go ahead and I'm
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going to just kind of turn the floor over to you.
2:59
OK, well, a little bit about myself.
3:02
I'm originally from the Saint Louis area, surrendered to
3:05
ministry while I was in college, thought I was going to be a
3:08
worship pastor for the rest of my life.
3:11
And that's what I went to school for.
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I have a bachelor's and a master's in music, and then for
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the next 25 years was an associate pastor and various
3:20
churches. And then toward the end of that
3:22
time, I started volunteering as a police and fire chaplain in
3:27
the city of Lincoln, NE Very rewarding ministry, working with
3:31
those first responders. But God kind of used that to
3:35
transition my call to the military.
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So at the age of 45, I joined the Navy.
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And yeah, there's a, there's a whole back story to that, but we
3:49
could talk about that maybe later if you want to.
3:51
But yeah, at the age of 45, I joined the Navy and the first
3:56
thing they did was send me to the Marine Corps because of the
3:59
words of the detailer. I'll try.
4:01
And he had a a really good Texas draw.
4:04
He'll said, boy, if I send you to the Marines any older,
4:08
they'll just kill you. And so that's what I did.
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So right off the bat, went to Marines and a little over a year
4:18
later found myself on the front lines in Afghanistan.
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And I was there with the Marine Corps Infantry Battalion in a
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very, very kinetic environment, seeing things happen, sometimes
4:30
being the target of things happening, which is where my
4:34
PTSD comes from. Because we found out that we had
4:37
found some materials in a, in a weapons cache that actually had
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the description of myself and my assistant with the words, you
4:47
know, basically, if you take these guys out, it'll demoralize
4:51
the Marines. What they didn't realize is it
4:53
would just made them matter. But you know, and from that day
4:56
forward, safety was gone. Knowing, knowing that.
5:03
And that's, you know, what I've been dealing with ever since
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with that and also understanding that I'm here by God's grace and
5:10
I'm here for as long as I am by God's grace.
5:13
And so Fast forward a few years and I was selected for a Navy
5:18
program on being qualified to learn how to be a hospital
5:22
chaplain so that I could be a a chaplain in one of the Navy
5:25
hospitals. And I was sent to the program
5:28
that they have in San Diego that's Co LED with the VA.
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And in order to work in a hospital, you have to have
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what's called CPE or clinical Pastoral education.
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And while you get those 4 units of CPE over the course of one
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year, you also do 2 residencies. You do a residency at the Naval
5:48
Hospital, and then you do a residency with the VA.
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And this was at the very height of COVID.
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And so my residency at the Naval Hospital was as the ICU
6:01
chaplain. And so in that ICU at the height
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of COVID, we were seeing at least one death a day from COVID
6:10
and dealing with the healthcare providers who just felt
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absolutely helpless to stop this.
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They were second guessing themselves constantly because
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they felt like they had trained to help and heal people.
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And they just kind of were were having to stand by helplessly as
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these people succumb to this virus.
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And sometimes in the course of that, we would have a husband
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pass one month and maybe the next month a spouse passed.
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And that happened more than once during the time that I was
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there. And a lot of these healthcare
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providers across the country were we're getting moral injury.
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And I'll explain more about that in a moment.
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And then after I left the Naval hospital and went to the VA,
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they put me in a place that's a PTSD domiciliary.
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And what that means is, but this is the only program the VA has,
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it needs to be replicated across the United States.
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But what they do in San Diego was they literally take veterans
7:15
diagnosed with PTSD who are homeless on the streets of San
7:18
Diego, house them for six months, address their PTSD and
7:23
their moral injury, help them get clean through the addressing
7:27
of their issues. That helps them to stay clean,
7:30
help them find a job, and then help them find housing.
7:33
So at the end of their six months, they're clean, they're
7:36
housed and they're employed. And they've got about an 85%
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success rate where people do not go back out on the street, which
7:45
is amazing. And the staff there are just
7:48
second to none in their dedication to the veterans.
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And the neat thing about being a chaplain there is that the
7:54
chaplain has an equal seat at the table when they plan the
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treatment path for these residents.
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And the chaplains expected to sit at the table, the chaplains
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expected to have a part of that conversation because they
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recognize a lot of what's going on with these veterans is
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spiritual. And that's just a really cool
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experience. And then working with these
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veterans, helping them to deal with their PTSD, helping them to
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deal with their moral injury was just inspiring for me.
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And so as I went then from leaving that and getting what I
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needed to do to work in a hospital, I was then assigned to
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Naval Hospital 29 Palms, which is in the middle of the Mojave
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Desert where I'm currently living.
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And it's it's aboard the largest Marine Corps base.
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Now, it's not the most populous Marine Corps base.
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There's only several thousand here, but size wise, this base
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is huge. It's bigger than all of the
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other Marine Corps bases combined.
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Because during the course of the year, we'll have 50,000 Marines,
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sailors and foreign military come through this base for
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training. And as we were doing that, and
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as I came here and learned what I learned both at the Naval
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Hospital and at the VA, I took several things that that that
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had taught me. And I took one VA program that I
9:28
especially liked. And I went to my leadership at
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the hospital. And I said, why are we waiting
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until these guys are on the streets homeless before we try
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to help them deal with their PTSD and their moral injury?
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Not that our mental health providers weren't working their
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tail off trying to help them, but I meant something that could
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come alongside, that could complement that in a group
9:56
setting that would give these veterans, these active duty
10:00
service members a safe place to talk about what's going on with
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them. And so my leadership completely
10:07
agreed. So with the permission of the
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VA, I took one of their programs and tweaked it for active duty.
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And what we did was we addressed PTSD and moral injury from the
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spiritual perspective and, and helping these folks reconnect
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sometimes to their faith as children or find a new faith and
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then be able to use that to mitigate the PTSD and moral
10:31
injury symptoms. And what we found was that when
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you add the spiritual to that, it made a huge difference with
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the service members and some retirees because we had retirees
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go through it as well. And as we're looking at PTSD and
10:48
moral injury, well, you've talked about PTSD multiple times
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and we know that PTSD is fear based trauma.
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It's something that happens to us.
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But as you mentioned earlier in the introduction, moral injury
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is when we do something, sometimes at the direction of
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someone in authority over us or we fail to prevent something,
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and the result of which just goes against everything that we
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believe in morally, ethically, and especially spiritually.
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And it just breaks us, similar to the way that PTSD can,
11:27
through that fear, trauma, break those individuals.
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But where it breaks us is through guilt and through shame.
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You know, guilt says I did something bad, shame says I am
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bad. Moral injury says I am bad and
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I'm unlovable, unforgivable and corrupt to the soul.
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And when people believe that, what happens is they pull back
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from everything. They pull back from their
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family, they pull back from their friends, they pull back
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even from their faith because they no longer believe that that
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they're worthy of God's forgiveness.
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And they're afraid to be around their family and friends because
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they feel so corrupted to the soul.
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Their, their soul just feel shattered that if they hang
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around their friends and their family too much, they'll
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actually fill them with the same corruption that they feel like
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they have inside. And so as we work with these
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service members and retirees, what we're seeing is that in
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this group setting, as we address this in a spiritual
12:44
perspective, we're seeing huge, just huge drops in their PTSD
12:51
symptoms and their moral injury symptoms and their willingness
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to re engage sometimes in the faith of their children, but
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sometime as their faith as children, but other times just
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maybe finding a new thing that that they can lean on And they
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they feel they go from being unlovable and unforgivable to
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feeling that maybe God can forgive them.
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They're struggling even more with the concept of forgiving
13:19
themselves and even sharing things with their family members
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that they've never shared before because they felt so corrupted.
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They felt like if they shared any of this with their family
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that it would either corrupt their family or their family
13:36
would see them as monsters and just cast them aside and reject
13:40
them. Yeah, and that's exactly what
13:46
living with the Mask on is all about.
13:49
The shows. The show is called Unmasked and
13:53
the episode, you know, this episode in particular, I believe
13:58
we're having because I want those listeners out there that
14:03
are living with those masks on to realize that that's OK to
14:07
take them off and to seek help. But before we get into all of
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that, let's pack up a little bit and and talk just a little bit
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more about you specifically. What shaped your understanding,
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you know, in your of faith and duty and responsibility early
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on? When did where did your
14:24
framework of right and wrong come from?
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My framework of right and wrong came with my family of origin,
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my parents. I had very I had parents that
14:35
were very strong in their faith. My dad was a World War 2 veteran
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and he to the day he died, he carried the scars of battle on
14:46
him. He was a machine gunner in a
14:49
Sherman tank, and his tank got chosen to be the first one to
14:52
try to cross the Rhine River. And you know what always happens
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to the first tank? So when they took that Panzer
14:59
shell, he was the only one who survived, the only one who got
15:03
out alive. And I believe he had PTSD.
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Just, you know, we just didn't know what it was then.
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But looking back, all of that makes sense.
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He was never angry or violent or rude, but he would he would go
15:17
into some depression at times. And I think that came from that,
15:21
especially when he thought about his difference that he lost in
15:24
the war. But they, they raised me with a
15:27
very strong faith, with a very strong sense of duty to God and
15:31
country and family. And then when it came time, you
15:36
know, I thought I was doing well.
15:38
I was doing what God had called me to do.
15:41
But I had the mistaken belief that once God calls you to
15:45
something, that calling never changes.
15:48
And I realized God can evolve our call.
15:52
He can call you to do something at one point in time.
15:56
And then if he wants, then he can evolve that calling so that
16:00
you could do something else, some other purpose that he has
16:03
for you. And I realized that in my mid
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40s that my time as an associate pastor was drawing to a close
16:12
and very, very clearly through a very strong calling, that change
16:17
to the idea of military chaplaincy, so much so that it
16:21
just completely, it was just a radical change in my life.
16:25
And I'll, I'll explain this like this.
16:27
So we went to a denominational training for chaplains and as a
16:32
volunteer police fire chaplain, I went, took my wife with me.
16:36
And as we're at this training, there's a lot of military
16:39
chaplains there. And I'm thinking it's really
16:42
neat that we're there, we're with them.
16:45
And during the course of this, I'm like, I'm starting to feel a
16:51
call of God for military chaplaincy.
16:54
And kind of like Moses at the burning Bush, I'm trying to
16:57
explain to God why he's so wrong at this.
17:01
And you see who won. And so first, I was already too
17:07
old. I was already past the age of
17:09
42, which is the cut off to serve as an officer.
17:13
And then literally at the very next session, they started
17:16
talking about age waivers that the Army and the Navy were
17:19
granting because they needed chaplains so badly.
17:23
And I thought, OK, well, he ditched that one.
17:27
And so my next thing was, well, God, I don't have the right
17:30
master's degree. At that point in time.
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I had a masters of church music and a masters of leadership.
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And what they wanted was a master of divinity.
17:38
And again, the next session they talked about, Now keep in mind
17:43
this was 2007. They were talking about these
17:47
new online schools that are fully accredited that the DoD
17:51
was taking for people who wanted to be chaplains.
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And I thought, that's two for two he took out of the way.
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And then I thought, well, this last one, I've got him.
18:04
I've got him. Cool.
18:05
And I thought, God, I'm a big boy because at that point in
18:09
time, I weighed over 300 lbs. And God came back and said,
18:13
there's this thing called diet and exercise.
18:15
And so I was like, OK, God, this is what you want me to do?
18:19
I'm not going to run from it. But I really would like for you
18:23
to tell my wife because of the idea of breaking this news to
18:26
her terrifies me. Not that she's a scary woman at
18:30
all. My wife is wonderful.
18:32
Most people would say, you know, they endure me in order to be
18:35
able to experience her. I don't blame them at all.
18:38
But I knew that this was just going to change everything.
18:43
And then that night as we're going back to the room, because
18:46
every evening when we go to something like this, we'll go
18:49
back to our room and we'll just share what God was telling each
18:52
of us that day. And so we go back to the room.
18:56
I am absolutely dreading this conversation.
18:59
And we walk in the door, I close the door to the room and before
19:03
I can get the first word out, she puts her finger in my face
19:07
and she says, I think God's calling you to be military
19:10
chaplain. And I was like, wow, if that's
19:14
not confirmation, I don't know what is.
19:16
So as we spent quite some time that night talking about all of
19:20
the things that this would mean, the changes and everything, I
19:25
remember her very clearly saying if this is what God is calling
19:29
us to do, how can we do anything else?
19:34
And I just thought to myself, I really do not deserve this lady,
19:38
but God gave her to me anyway and I'm grateful for that.
19:42
So over the next 18 months I went back to school for
19:45
Christmas that year. She bought me hours with a
19:48
personal trainer and I jokingly say she paid a 22 year old to
19:51
try to kill me because it felt like that that way at first.
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But I told him what I needed to do, where I needed to be.
19:58
And that young man does. Designed a plan to get me there
20:02
and in 18 months I had a master of divinity because several of
20:08
my other masters had some things that transferred over.
20:14
I had a master of divinity. I lost 110 lbs and I was at the
20:20
Omaha maps, duck walking with a bunch of 17 year olds to try to
20:24
get into the Navy and it's been very interesting.
20:28
It's been very rewarding. These last 16 years hasn't
20:31
always been fun. You know being away from family
20:34
is never fun, especially in a combat zone.
20:38
Amen to that. Yeah, but I've always felt like
20:43
I was where God wanted me to be. And now is this time draws to a
20:49
close because I turned 62 this summer, which means that it's
20:52
time for me to move on. You know, we're just praying
20:57
about what that next season looks like.
20:59
And we know that God will provide and.
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He always does. He always does, he always does.
21:07
And, you know, to get to where I am now was very unlikely, you
21:12
know, to join at 45, to lose 110 lbs, to go back to school.
21:16
But God did it. And now I've even got to go back
21:19
to school again to be able to do CPE, to be able to do a
21:24
doctorate and ministry. And in that doctorate, I did a
21:28
special project on moral injury where I educated local pastors
21:32
on moral injury. Because I realized as I have
21:37
been in different places and speaking to local pastors,
21:41
because we have a rule wherever we go, we're part of a local
21:45
church. We, we don't just say, ah, we're
21:49
good and kind of sit it out. We are always part of a local
21:52
church and, and want to be fed by that church and want to
21:56
contribute to that church. But as I have spoken with
22:00
pastors across the board, most of them have it can give you a
22:04
pretty good idea about PTSD. But then when you say, can you
22:09
tell me what moral injury is, then they start to get the look
22:14
of the deer in headlights. But then, and this is without
22:18
exception, when I explain what moral injury is, then every
22:25
single pastor said, huh, I think I know somebody that that talks
22:33
about. So let's let's let's go back to
22:37
that real quick then for the person that's out there, that's
22:40
listening, who maybe they missed it because they were doing
22:42
something else or, or whatever it might be defined define for
22:47
us again, really quick and plain language.
22:50
What is moral injury and how is it different from trauma?
22:55
OK, so moral injury is when you do something, sometimes under
23:00
the direction of somebody in authority over you, or you fail
23:04
to prevent something, and the result of which just goes
23:08
against everything that you believe in.
23:11
And sometimes it breaks you to the point that you're just
23:13
consumed with guilt and shame and you feel like you're just
23:18
corrupted from the inside out, that you might even be.
23:23
You feel like that you're evil from the inside out and that
23:27
your soul is fractured and you don't see a way back from that.
23:33
And sometimes the choice that you were given was not a good or
23:38
a bad choice. Sometimes the choice you were
23:41
given was bad or worse. And so it was almost like a no
23:46
win situation. And it doesn't have to be
23:49
military in context, although that's kind of where it first
23:53
appeared out of. It first came out of out of the
23:56
VA. And they're working with Vietnam
23:58
Veterans. But this can be in healthcare,
24:03
it can be first responders, it can be in the corporate world
24:09
where someone above you in the corporate world says, no, this
24:13
report you were preparing, it doesn't say what we want it to
24:16
say. So you must change it to say
24:18
this or you're no longer going to have a job.
24:20
It could be in verbal, physical, sexual trauma where the
24:28
perpetrator just says over and over again, I'm doing this to
24:32
you because your actions force me to do this to you.
24:36
You're such a bad person. You're such a weak person.
24:38
You're such an incompetent person.
24:41
That's why I'm doing this to you.
24:43
And in addition to the PTSD and the physical trauma they're
24:46
enduring, they're also coming to the point where they believe
24:50
that they are no longer worthy and might even deserve that
24:53
treat. And it can happen in just so
24:57
many different areas. It's not just military, but it's
25:01
where you just believe you're corrupted from the inside out.
25:04
You're consumed with that guilt and shame.
25:07
And that's what's so hard is because they just believe that
25:11
they're unlovable and unforgivable.
25:13
And when you think about that type of thing, what does it do
25:18
to that person internally, and how does it distort their
25:22
identity, their view of God, and their ability to lead,
25:26
especially at home when you think about men?
25:29
Yeah, absolutely. And, and what it does is so many
25:34
times the men who are eaten up with this, they just, they give
25:38
up the leadership in the home because they're afraid of
25:44
corrupting their own children. They're afraid of corrupting
25:48
their spouse. We had one gentleman who just
25:52
completely stepped back from his family and his interactions with
25:57
them were just the most basic possible.
25:59
And it had been almost 2 decades since his last deployment, but
26:04
he still was consumed with the guilt and the shame of what he
26:08
did in that deployment. And in the office, because he
26:12
was a retired in the office, he was known as the guy who just
26:17
griped at everybody who grumbled and griped, had a terrible
26:21
attitude. One of the chaplains here as he
26:23
was visiting, we call it deck plating, the different areas
26:26
that we're responsible for, he came across this gentleman and
26:30
he said, you know, one of my friends is starting up this new
26:33
group. Maybe you should think about
26:35
going to it. And so he came that first night.
26:39
And with this group, I always partnered with a healthcare
26:41
provider so that he could give that clinical perspective, I
26:45
could give that spiritual perspective.
26:47
And this gentleman came that first night and we weren't sure
26:50
he was going to come back. He was not friendly.
26:53
He was grumbly. It just looked like at any
26:56
moment he could just punch you in the face.
27:00
But that first night, one of the things that we did was we'll
27:05
have the service members of the retirees just give a brief story
27:09
about themselves and why they're there.
27:11
And as he heard the stories of the other people in the group,
27:18
he told us later, he realized I'm not alone in how I'm
27:23
feeling. And he had just completely given
27:28
up leadership in the whole, you know, for that very reason.
27:31
He was afraid that he would corrupt his family even more.
27:38
And so by the time we finished with the Group A few weeks
27:41
later, he came to us with tears in his eye.
27:46
And he said, tonight I'm telling my wife everything.
27:54
And I remember that we gathered around him, we laid hands on him
27:59
and we prayed for him. And I didn't see him for a few
28:02
weeks. And then I actually saw him
28:05
again about a month ago. And it was like he was a
28:08
different person. And so he came to me and he said
28:13
I told my wife everything. I wasn't sure what was going to
28:17
happen. I half expected her to kick me
28:19
out of the house because she thought would think I was a
28:22
monster. Instead, she broke down in
28:26
tears, hugged him and said I love you.
28:31
Thank you for finally sharing this with me.
28:34
And so that went a long way to healing the marriage and also to
28:40
healing the relationship he had with his children.
28:43
Assumed back the leadership role in his home.
28:47
Reconnected with his faith, connecting with his family.
28:51
I saw him a month ago. He's dropped 50 lbs.
28:55
He doesn't eat his frustrations anymore.
28:59
And then what's really funny is the people he works with are
29:03
like, what did you do to this guy?
29:07
It's like he's a different person.
29:10
And he laughs, he jokes, he pops his head into the offices of
29:15
different people and checks in on him and says, hi, how you
29:18
doing? And it's because all of the
29:21
weight of everything that he was holding in and everything that
29:26
he was keeping under that mask, when he finally took it off, the
29:34
weight off of his shoulders was just almost unimaginable.
29:40
Yeah. You know, and that's one of the
29:42
things that I say all this time on this show is, you know, the
29:46
enemy being the devil. He wants you to live in fear.
29:51
He wants you to live in this state of denial, in this state
29:57
of just. Yeah, just fear where you are so
30:01
afraid of what might happen if you take off that mask that he
30:06
is going to tell you the worst case scenario over and over and
30:11
over again. Yes.
30:13
So you just taking off the mask is one of the hardest, but one
30:18
of the best things that you can do because the worst case might
30:24
happen. I'm not going to say, and I
30:26
don't think anybody will say this isn't going to happen,
30:29
right? But when you take off the mask
30:32
and you get that off of your chest, you have this new found
30:36
freedom of being able to breathe and you can the healing can
30:42
begin. And you may have an experience
30:46
like this gentleman that that Doctor Brandt was just talking
30:49
about where the opposite of what he was telling, thinking in his
30:52
head was going to happen is what happened.
30:55
You know, with my own with my own recovery story, that's
31:00
exactly what's happened. As I went into this recovery
31:03
meeting for the first time and I shared what I was struggling
31:07
with, I brace for the worst, but found the opposite response.
31:14
Yeah. And so if you're out there and
31:16
you're listening to this, I want you to know that it's OK to be
31:21
unmasked. It's OK to tell somebody.
31:25
You don't have to tell everybody, but tell somebody.
31:28
Tell your spouse, tell your pastor, tell a tell a therapist
31:34
or a counselor. Find somebody that you can
31:37
trust, that you can be honest with and just get it out there.
31:41
And if you're a veteran and you don't have anybody like that, go
31:46
to the VA, go to the local VFW, find your local veteran service
31:51
organization and find somebody. There's lots of resources out
31:55
there. Don't let it just eat you alive.
31:58
Yes, because that's the worst thing that you can do.
32:02
So when, when you think about that, you know, and you just
32:06
think about the people that you've you've you've sat with
32:08
over the years, what is the most common lie that moral injury has
32:15
that you have seen in people that are dealing with moral
32:18
injury? That let me rephrase this.
32:25
What is the most common lie that moral injury has caused people
32:30
to believe about themselves from your experience?
32:34
That there's no way back You. You can't come back from this.
32:39
You can't be restored, you can't be forgiven.
32:42
That's the most common lie I've seen.
32:46
And there's always a way back. Always.
32:49
There is, and that's one reason I wrote the book that I did, was
32:54
to help ministry leaders understand what these people are
32:58
going through and then not to just try to slap it with a quick
33:04
fix. So where do you think, where do
33:07
you think the church has gotten this wrong?
33:09
Not necessarily in a condemning way, you know, because the
33:12
church doesn't condemn people for for having something going
33:15
on. But where have we?
33:17
Unintentionally, maybe even deep into wound instead of healing
33:22
it, helping heal it. Couple of different ways I'm
33:26
just trying to do a quick fix and this is what I mean by that
33:29
I don't think any of this let me just straight start with this I
33:33
don't think any of this is intentional on the part of
33:37
pastors and ministry leaders. I think it's all about education
33:41
and understanding, but sometimes these guys will come forward or
33:46
I say, guys, I'm being sexist there.
33:48
It, it could be either. Sometimes these folks come
33:52
forward and the pastors are fixers.
33:56
They're used to helping people and the idea that they can't
34:01
take care of this right away. Sometimes they struggle with.
34:05
And so sometimes someone will come forward.
34:08
We'll give them a verse of scripture, which is always good.
34:13
I'm never going to say it's not, but and we pray for them and
34:18
then we think everything's OK from there.
34:21
And for folks hurting like this, it, this takes more.
34:25
This takes more. And so they don't realize that
34:28
they need to sit with these folks in their pain and, and
34:31
help slowly walk them back the path to restoration.
34:36
The other thing that happens is that we may mistake moral injury
34:40
for something else. We may mistake it for
34:43
backsliding, we may mistake it for burnout, we may mistake it
34:48
for some other type of moral failure.
34:50
And then we make a judgment call based on that, which may
34:53
actually deepen the hurt that the person is experiencing.
34:58
What I'm encouraging the church to do is to #1 understand what
35:01
moral injury is. And secondly, to become a safe
35:05
place for these folks to be able to tell their stories without
35:09
shock or judgment and to sit with them in their pain and let
35:15
them know through not just words but actions, that they are
35:21
lovable and they are forgivable. I love that, you know, for the
35:30
for the person that's out there listening right now, I believe
35:35
that you're listening and somebody has been brought to
35:38
your mind, somebody that you, you're, you're thinking, man,
35:42
this person could use this episode or man, that my pastor,
35:46
I think this would be something really good for my pastor to
35:49
hear. You know, I would you just take
35:51
a moment and just share this episode with them because you
35:54
never know who might begin a road to freedom because of this
35:58
episode, because you shared it with them.
36:01
Or you never know who a pastor might realize, Hey, this could
36:05
be something that I need to look into for our church, you know,
36:09
so just take a moment and share it.
36:10
It's, it's 2 seconds and you might just change a life because
36:14
of it. You know, as we begin thinking
36:18
about transformation and the lessons that you've learned and
36:23
all of that type of stuff, when healing begins, what actually
36:28
shifts within the individual? Is it theology, confession,
36:32
community, self forgiveness? You know, I could go on.
36:35
What? What begins to loosen the grip
36:39
of moral injury on in that person's life?
36:42
What I have seen is that when they have that safe place to be
36:47
able to tell their story and that safe place shows that
36:53
they're not a monster, that they're just simply a human
36:57
being who quite often had no good choice in that situation.
37:05
Then from there, you know, then you can especially show them
37:11
maybe some characters in Scripture that went through
37:15
similar circumstances. You've got, you know, David in
37:19
the Old Testament who did some terrible things but came back to
37:26
God and God forgave him. You've got Peter who betrayed
37:31
Jesus. And yet Jesus confronted him on
37:35
the shores of Galilee and gave him a purpose, gave him
37:39
forgiveness and a purpose. You've got Paul who who killed
37:45
Christians, but Christ confronted him on that road to
37:49
Damascus, and then he was given a purpose as well.
37:54
And we see several times in Scripture these people who, you
38:00
know, are confronted, they have to think about what happened.
38:04
They are forgiven and then God gives them a purpose.
38:09
One of the things that we see with many of them is is so much
38:13
at one of the things that help shift them is doing some type of
38:18
journaling, some type of creative writing, sometime of
38:23
ritual that helps them understand.
38:26
There's a I guess for lack of the better that a doorway to go
38:32
through to that forgiveness We'll have Sometimes I'll have
38:38
the person say do me a favor and I want you to read Psalm 51 now.
38:46
I want you to rewrite Psalm 51 from your perspective and
38:51
everything that has happened to you, keeping in mind how God had
38:56
forgiven David. That's one exercise we do.
39:01
Another thing we do is, is I'll ask them now this is throughout
39:05
the 8 weeks that we do the group, that first week, we'll
39:09
give them home. I give homework every week.
39:10
I'm mean that way, but that first night what we'll do and
39:14
we'll, we'll tell them that they need to keep what's called a two
39:16
way prayer lock or two way prayer journal.
39:19
And most people are used to journaling.
39:22
You know, a lot of mental health providers will say you need to
39:25
journal, you need to journal, you need to journal that it's a
39:27
good way to be cathartic and just write out what's going on
39:30
with you. And what we encourage them to do
39:33
is we encourage them to write out their prayers also write out
39:37
what's going on with them. And here's the two way part.
39:41
How would it, how would you imagine God would answer you?
39:47
And it's amazing how that second part shifts their perspective
39:53
because with moral injury, so much is consumed with what I
39:58
did, how I'm not lovable, how I'm not forgivable.
40:03
But then when they have to look at what is going on in their
40:08
life, not just from their perspective, but from what they
40:11
believe would be God's perspective.
40:15
Then they start to understand that God is a loving, caring God
40:23
who is has no limits to his forgiveness.
40:27
They start to begin to think, They get outside of themselves,
40:30
and they begin to look at things from God's perspective.
40:33
And that subtle shift is radical.
40:37
For the first few weeks. They try it and they're like,
40:41
ah, this was a little strange and we'll say good.
40:43
It was supposed to, you know, how often are you, are you used
40:47
to thinking like God? If you are, maybe there's
40:49
something else going on here. But then as they do it more and
40:52
more than they start to look at everything from God's
40:57
perspective and how maybe they aren't unlovable, maybe they
41:03
aren't unforgivable. And we'll use illustrations like
41:08
from Numbers 31. If you look at Numbers 31, this
41:12
is when the people of Israel, they're being tempted by the
41:14
Midianite women. And so God says, you got to go
41:18
confront Midian, take them out. And so under God's direction,
41:24
that's exactly what happens. They go and they fight the
41:27
Midianites and they defeat them. And then as they're coming back
41:33
now, understand I'm paraphrasing here, but as they come back,
41:37
Moses says stop. You cannot come back into the
41:42
camp. What I want you to do for the
41:46
next 7 days, God has demanded that you need to.
41:51
For the next 7 days, think about what you have just done, what
41:55
you have just encountered, what you had to do for the nation of
42:00
Israel and for God. Rededicate yourself not once,
42:05
but twice in these next seven days.
42:07
Rededicate yourself to God because God recognizes that even
42:11
though He told you you needed to kill in His name, He understands
42:15
that taking the life of someone created in Him is messy.
42:20
And then I'm sorry, go ahead. I, I just, yeah, there's people
42:28
out there that they feel condemned for things that
42:31
they've done, you know, or some, So for somebody that's out there
42:33
right now who believes that Christ is real and they, they
42:38
have a faith in him, but they still feel condemned by their
42:42
past. What is?
42:44
What is that truth so that they're missing?
42:46
Or what truth is it that they have misunderstood?
42:52
I think what they've misunderstood and it's more
42:55
wrapped up in self forgiveness because sometimes, and this is
43:00
even pastors, pastors of churches who get wrapped up in
43:06
this sometimes through something that happened, something they
43:09
did, they said to someone, maybe a moral failure that they had.
43:13
And they they will talk about forgiveness.
43:17
But then in their heart they'll say, well, this is for other
43:21
people, not for me. I've gone too far and getting
43:28
them to believe that not only God's forgiveness, but self
43:32
forgiveness is possible. A big part of that is that two
43:36
way prayer journal where they begin to look at things from
43:39
God's perspective and they kind of get out of their own head.
43:43
That's huge in that helping them to understand because they get
43:48
so focused on what they've done, they can't get outside of it.
43:56
They can't get past it. But then once they start doing
44:00
that, once they start seeing that from another perspective,
44:03
especially it's God's perspective, then that just kind
44:08
of opens up and melts away and they start to realize maybe I
44:12
can be forgiven. Maybe I can forgive myself.
44:15
Maybe my wife or my husband can love me again, even though they
44:21
probably never stopped. So when you think about the
44:27
church, you know, one of the things I mentioned in the
44:30
introduction is the church is helping people, right?
44:33
So when you when you think about that, one of the things that you
44:37
challenge the churches to do is to sit with the people who are
44:40
more morally injured. What does that look like
44:43
practically, and what does it require from the pastors and the
44:47
leaders that may feel uncomfortable doing that?
44:52
Well, they, they need to get comfortable with being
44:55
uncomfortable to be truthful. They got to get comfortable with
45:00
being uncomfortable. They've got to train themselves
45:05
to listen for key phrases from people.
45:09
That's good for him, but not for me.
45:11
I've, I've done something I can never come back from.
45:15
I'm just too tired to deal with this anymore.
45:20
Listen for those kinds of phrases.
45:23
And then, you know, being able to take that person aside and
45:28
just say, tell me what's going on with you.
45:32
I'm listening. No judgments.
45:33
Because these folks, what they're what when they do try to
45:38
talk about what's going on with them, especially in the church,
45:43
sometimes what happens is the person that they're talking to
45:46
reacts in a negative way. They may be horrified at what
45:51
they're telling them, especially if it's a combat first, first
45:54
responder situation. You know, you know, those of us
45:59
who have been in combat, we have a certain language that we're
46:03
comfortable with, but someone who has never experienced A
46:07
kinetic environment, they're not.
46:11
And so training our ministry leaders, our volunteers,
46:15
learning ourselves as pastors not to react negatively to these
46:20
stories and to listen to the stories.
46:22
And sometimes it's going to be a bit because sometimes those
46:25
stories are extensive and you just not having that reaction
46:30
because sometimes when they tell that story and they see that
46:36
reaction on the person's face, they just shut down.
46:42
And if we can teach our folks to listen for certain phrases,
46:47
patterns, patterns of behavior, phrases of words, and then to
46:53
just in a loving way, hey, what's going on?
46:56
I really do want to know. And sometimes it's after, after
47:01
they tell you say, you know, maybe talking to Pastor Mark
47:05
might be a really good idea, or we can just continue talking,
47:09
you and I. But when they have that, when
47:12
they have that safe space where they don't feel judged, that's
47:17
that first step in coming back from this.
47:22
Because they don't. They probably have not prayed
47:25
for quite some time because they don't feel worthy for God to
47:29
hear their prayer. Yeah, one of the things I want
47:33
to mention here too is, you know, if you're out there and
47:35
you've never, we're going to use veterans here just because it's
47:40
as Doctor Brandt said, is one of the leading people that he has
47:43
seen at least with with moral injury.
47:46
But as he mentioned earlier, this can go into any sector.
47:49
And so when you think about that and and you're a leader out
47:52
there and you're listening to this and you're saying, but what
47:56
am I supposed to do with these people that are sharing these
47:59
things? And I don't understand.
48:01
The best thing that you can do is just listen and let them get
48:07
it off of their chest. And then you they might say
48:13
something that will trigger the person that will, that will
48:16
trigger something in your head and to know where to go next.
48:20
Who does, who does think come up with if you're, you know, if
48:24
they're a veteran, they can go to the VA, they can go all these
48:26
different places, But if you're out there listening and maybe
48:29
you're one of those people that you're like, I need to get
48:31
something off of my chest and I don't know who to go to.
48:36
We mentioned earlier there's a lot of different resources out
48:38
there. One of the ones that I want to
48:40
mention specifically though, for veterans, I mentioned on the
48:43
Showtime and time again that I'm a part of this awesome ministry
48:46
called Celebrate Recovery. It is a global ministry or a
48:52
national ministry. It's all around the world.
48:54
You can find one near you, but they have this awesome ministry
48:57
called Welcome Home that is a part of Celebrate Recovery.
49:01
And Welcome Home is specifically for veterans.
49:06
And you can go and you can be in a room with men or women
49:12
depending on your gender. It's gender specific, but you're
49:15
in a room with other veterans that you can talk about the
49:19
things that you've gone through and they're going to understand
49:21
and they're going to get you because they've been there too,
49:25
or maybe they haven't been exactly where you were, but they
49:28
have a pretty good idea. And so there are groups out
49:32
there for you to be able to find that safe place.
49:36
So, and if you're out there and you're a pastor or somebody like
49:39
that and you're like, oh, I didn't know about that.
49:42
Go online. You can find local chapters of
49:45
these groups to send these people to, to let them and help
49:50
or help them get the help that they need.
49:54
So one of the things I like to do on this show is I love to
49:59
give wisdom to the listeners. And so question I have for you
50:06
here and I've got 2 questions for so this is this is one of
50:09
two. OK.
50:11
So many of the men that are out there listening aren't in
50:15
combat, right? But they still carry regret.
50:20
They still have moral compromise or decisions that they can't
50:24
undo. So how does moral injury show up
50:28
in everyday life outside of the military?
50:34
Well, it can show up very similar to how it shows up in
50:37
the military. It shows up in shame, it shows
50:40
up in guilt, it shows up in isolating oneself because you're
50:45
afraid. The more you interact with
50:46
others, the more you're going to corrupt them with the decision
50:49
that you had to make. It's also partners with PTSD
50:53
depending on what happened to them.
50:54
So there's there's that paranoia, there's that lack of
50:59
trust in yourself, lack of trust in God and where the person does
51:03
what they have to do in in order to survive, but they just almost
51:08
withdraw from any other interaction possible.
51:16
So looking for withdrawal, that's a big sign.
51:19
Withdrawal and also self replicating behavior and words.
51:24
You know, when they do speak, especially about themselves,
51:28
it's not going to be in a positive light.
51:32
OK, well before I get to my last question, and if you're, if
51:38
you're out there and you're listening, you're like, oh, I
51:40
know what this last question is. It's very similar on all my
51:43
shows, my episodes. But before I get there, if they
51:46
want more information about you or they want to find your book,
51:49
tell us where my listeners can find you online and what is the
51:53
name of the book and where can they buy it?
51:55
Sure. Well, they're they're welcome to
51:59
e-mail me. My e-mail is
52:01
chapsbrantchapsbrant@yahoo.com. The book is called Restoring the
52:07
Broken and the website for it is www.restoring-the-broken.com.
52:16
And you can go there and you can order the book from there.
52:19
It's on Amazon. And then even though it says
52:24
it's directed toward ministry leaders, and it is, but what I
52:28
wanted to do was I wanted to write it in very plain spoken
52:32
language so that anyone could understand it.
52:35
Whether you want a better understanding about what you're
52:37
feeling yourself or maybe a better understanding about what
52:41
someone you love is going through, or you're a ministry
52:45
leader and you want to be able to understand what some of the
52:49
things your congregation members and people in your community are
52:52
going through. And in there.
52:54
I even have 1 chapter specifically set aside for how
52:57
to train your people to recognize this.
53:01
And it's not a training you got to call me in on or me charge
53:06
Boo gobs of money. It's a training that once you
53:08
read the book, you could lead yourself.
53:14
Well, you can't beat that. Most trainings are hundreds and
53:17
thousands of dollars, and you can get it for the price of a
53:19
book. Does that pay me and bring me in
53:21
We'll. Talk, you know, But I won't turn
53:24
down. I won't turn that down.
53:26
But in. Reality I I wanted to have
53:29
something that they would have that resource in their hand and
53:34
from that one resource they could go and better understand
53:39
what moral injury is themself but also have a training for the
53:45
people in their ministry that wasn't going to cost the church
53:49
an arm and a leg because we all at in every church that budget
53:55
money you fight for every dollar absolutely do I love that I.
53:59
Did something very similar with my book.
54:01
So I love that, you know, if so, the last question I have for you
54:06
here, and this is one thing that I do on every episode is I love
54:10
to leave my listeners with an action step, something that they
54:14
can do to begin their walk, to begin to deepen their walk, to
54:18
begin living unmasked. And so if there's somebody out
54:22
there listening right now who realizes now maybe from
54:25
listening from this to this episode, that they're carrying
54:29
moral injury and they have been hiding it.
54:32
They're hiding behind work, they're service, they're in, in
54:36
silence. What is 1 specific, measurable
54:40
step that they can take this week to begin moving towards
54:45
restoration? I'll do 1.
54:50
If they can do one of two things, find someone that they
54:59
believe they can safely tell their story to, and if for some
55:05
strange reason they don't feel like they hate, they can then
55:10
write their story out. And then how would God answer
55:17
them back and write that down too, so that they're not just
55:22
looking at their story from their perspective?
55:29
Well, there you go. You have two options this week
55:32
of something that you can do. There's no, there's no cheating.
55:36
Now you can't say, well, that that first one was too hard
55:39
because now you have two options.
55:41
So you can pick your poison, if you will.
55:42
There you go. There you go.
55:45
Well then Doctor Brand, thank you.
55:46
So. Much for joining us today on
55:49
Unmasked and sharing your journey and talking about this
55:53
very uncommon topic of moral injury and helping us see how it
55:58
affects us and the things that we can do to begin to live
56:02
unmasked from it. My pleasure.
56:05
Thank you for having me on. It's been my pleasure indeed.
56:14
Well, thanks for joining me today on Unmasked.
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And again, a huge thanks to Doctor Brand for joining us
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today and sharing so openly and honestly with us.
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If something in this episode spoke to you, don't let it stop
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with you. Share it with the one person
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that got put on your heart while you were listening.
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Because you never know whose breakthrough my heart was.
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Just because you never know whose breakthrough might start
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with just a simple message from you.
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If you want more encouragement, you want to work with me
56:43
one-on-one, or you're interested in having me speak at your
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church or event, you can find everything you need to know at
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wesleyfarnsworth.com. And make sure you join the
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Unmasked community by joining me on social media so that we can
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walk this journey together. Until next time, remember that
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grace is greater than your past and freedom begins the moment
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that you choose to live unmasked.
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God bless you.