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How to Persuade Any Audience: John Zimmer Reveals the Hidden Skills · Speaking of Meaning

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Welcome back to Speaking of Meaning,
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Better Communication,
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Greater Impact.
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SPEAKER_00: I have with me John Zimmer, a recognized international speaker.
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SPEAKER_00: He has been recognized as Europe's best speaker nine times.
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And he has a wonderful blog,
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Manner of Speaking,
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that has over five million readers.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm excited for this conversation because John is an expert,
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SPEAKER_00: not only on public speaking and communication,
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SPEAKER_00: but also on persuasion.
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SPEAKER_00: John, welcome.
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SPEAKER_01: Great to be here, Ibrahim.
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SPEAKER_01: Nice to be on the show.
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SPEAKER_00: For our guests who perhaps have not heard about you before,
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SPEAKER_00: can you tell us about your background?
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SPEAKER_01: Sure.
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SPEAKER_01: The very short version.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm from Canada.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm a lawyer by training.
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I worked many years in corporate commercial litigation and
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environmental law in one
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SPEAKER_01: of Canada's biggest law firms in Toronto.
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SPEAKER_01: In 1998,
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SPEAKER_01: I had a great opportunity to come to Geneva,
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SPEAKER_01: Switzerland,
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SPEAKER_01: where I currently am,
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SPEAKER_01: an opportunity with the United Nations.
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SPEAKER_01: That led to 17 years with the UN,
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SPEAKER_01: the International Organization for Migration,
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SPEAKER_01: and also the World Health Organization.
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SPEAKER_01: But 10 years ago,
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SPEAKER_01: I thought,
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SPEAKER_01: that's enough of the UN,
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SPEAKER_01: and I became independent to do what I do now,
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SPEAKER_01: which is public speaking,
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SPEAKER_01: presentation skills training,
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SPEAKER_01: giving speeches,
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SPEAKER_01: moderating events,
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SPEAKER_01: that kind of thing.
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SPEAKER_00: So have you always been doing communication and public speaking?
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SPEAKER_00: Well,
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SPEAKER_01: as a lawyer,
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I was fortunate to work in a law firm that gave young lawyers a
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chance to go to
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SPEAKER_01: court and to get up on your feet and to try and to do cases,
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SPEAKER_01: argue cases before courts and tribunals.
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So my whole career really has been about communication,
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written and spoken.
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SPEAKER_00: I read that you have been the best speaker in Europe nine times.
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SPEAKER_01: Well,
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SPEAKER_01: that's probably a bit too grand to say the best speaker in Europe,
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SPEAKER_01: but I did win a few speaking contests along the way with Toastmasters
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SPEAKER_01: International,
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and this was at a time when the district in which I was was the
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entirety of Europe.
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SPEAKER_00: And how did you become interested in public speaking and communication?
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SPEAKER_01: I've always enjoyed being on stage and speaking in front of people.
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SPEAKER_01: And as a lawyer,
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SPEAKER_01: when you're representing clients,
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there's a nice feeling to know that you are actually speaking
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on behalf of someone.
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And then when I left the law to do what I do now,
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it's really the same thing.
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SPEAKER_01: You're up on your feet.
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SPEAKER_01: You're trying to give people value for the time that they're giving you.
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SPEAKER_01: And it's a chance to share a message.
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SPEAKER_01: It's a chance to make an impact as well.
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SPEAKER_00: All right.
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SPEAKER_00: Making an impact.
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SPEAKER_00: So if somebody is listening right now and they're asking themselves,
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SPEAKER_00: why should I worry about public speaking?
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SPEAKER_00: I don't have to speak in public.
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SPEAKER_00: What would you tell them?
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SPEAKER_01: I think even if you're not speaking at major conferences,
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public speaking could involve speaking to five of your
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colleagues at an important
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SPEAKER_01: team meeting.
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And I think it's an important skill to learn because of
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something that the former
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SPEAKER_01: chairman of the Chrysler car company in the United States,
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SPEAKER_01: Lee Iacocca said,
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SPEAKER_01: he said,
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SPEAKER_01: you can have great ideas,
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SPEAKER_01: but if you can't get your ideas across,
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SPEAKER_01: your ideas aren't going to get you anywhere.
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SPEAKER_01: And I meet people all the time in what I do and brilliant people,
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SPEAKER_01: people who are motivated,
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SPEAKER_01: people who are excited about what they're doing,
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SPEAKER_01: people who have fantastic ideas.
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But if they can't find a way to communicate these ideas in a
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way that is clear,
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SPEAKER_01: that is memorable,
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SPEAKER_01: that is persuasive to move people to take some kind of action,
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SPEAKER_01: then their ideas won't go as far as they might have gone otherwise.
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Have you met leaders who struggle with communication and
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creating a compelling and
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SPEAKER_00: inspiring message?
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SPEAKER_01: Sure, all the time.
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SPEAKER_01: And it's not because they're not intelligent or not capable of it.
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In some cases,
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it's because they've just learned bad habits over the years.
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SPEAKER_01: In others,
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it's because they're so busy that they don't have the time to
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devote to really
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stepping back and thinking about the presentation or the speech
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that they're going
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SPEAKER_01: to give.
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SPEAKER_01: Everybody faces challenges.
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SPEAKER_01: I still face challenges as a speaker.
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SPEAKER_01: I find I'm always learning.
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You get to the top of one mountain and then you realize that
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there are higher
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SPEAKER_01: mountains to climb.
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SPEAKER_01: And so it's a lifelong skill.
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SPEAKER_01: But the good news is that if people are prepared to work at it,
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SPEAKER_01: even just to improve incrementally every day,
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SPEAKER_01: every week,
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SPEAKER_01: then over time,
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SPEAKER_01: they can become very compelling speakers.
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SPEAKER_00: If we talk a little bit about leaders,
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SPEAKER_00: because a lot of people can benefit even if you're not a leader,
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SPEAKER_00: but obviously if you are a leader,
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SPEAKER_00: you have a position where you have to speak,
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SPEAKER_00: you have to influence,
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SPEAKER_00: you have to inspire.
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Why should leaders not only care about speaking,
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but also persuasion and the art of influence?
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SPEAKER_01: Well, I think leaders, they have people for whom they are responsible.
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SPEAKER_01: They have people whom they are leading.
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SPEAKER_01: That is the very nature of the definition of a leader.
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And as a leader,
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you have to persuade people to do what it is you want them to
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do.
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I think you also have to inspire them and motivate them and get
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them to believe that
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SPEAKER_01: in the value of what they're doing.
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SPEAKER_01: And so you look at leaders of companies today who are,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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whether they're multinationals or mid-sized companies or even
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small companies,
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SPEAKER_01: I would think that they would want to inspire,
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SPEAKER_01: motivate,
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persuade their employees to do a great job for the benefit of
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the company,
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SPEAKER_01: but also for their own benefit.
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SPEAKER_00: Do you often find yourself in conversation with leaders?
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Do you often find yourself trying to convince them of why it is
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important with
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SPEAKER_00: persuasion and the art of public speaking?
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SPEAKER_01: Sometimes.
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SPEAKER_01: I think most leaders...
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SPEAKER_01: know the importance of good communication skills.
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SPEAKER_01: I think the persuasion on my part comes in the how,
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SPEAKER_01: in trying to get them to let go of the text-heavy slides,
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in trying to get them to maybe tell a personal story as part of
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the overall
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SPEAKER_01: presentation.
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SPEAKER_01: I think that's where there's more persuasion coming from my part.
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SPEAKER_00: That's interesting.
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And what is the most common argument they use against telling a
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personal story?
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SPEAKER_01: I think, I don't know if it's so much an argument, but I think they've...
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throughout their careers they've seen i know i've seen and i
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suspect you've seen as
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well so many business presentations which is just fat which are
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just facts facts
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facts facts data data data data and they see this all the time
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and so they think
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well this must be how it's done but the reality is that there's
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no rule that says
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SPEAKER_01: it has to be all data in fact if it's only data
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The speaker would have saved everybody a lot of time by just
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turning the slides
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into a PDF and emailing them because people can't absorb and
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retain too many things
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SPEAKER_01: at one time.
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SPEAKER_01: They're going to need to go away.
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SPEAKER_01: They're going to need to read more about it, think about it.
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But the point of a presentation isn't to flood people with as
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much information as possible.
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SPEAKER_01: It's to get them to remember a few key points.
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And then they can go away and do further research and reading
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on their own.
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SPEAKER_00: I think this is very common.
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I remember one time when my boss was going to inform us about
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an organizational change.
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And I could see when he started his PowerPoint presentation
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that he had 80 slides.
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SPEAKER_00: And after slide number four,
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people just started reading what was on the PowerPoint slide
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and stopped listening
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SPEAKER_00: to him because all the information was there.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: And I tell people, I say, look,
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If you put a slide that is full of text and information and
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three graphs or
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SPEAKER_01: whatever,
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SPEAKER_01: you force your audience to make a choice.
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Either I'm going to listen to you and not look at the slide or
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what is more likely
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SPEAKER_01: to happen,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm going to look at the slide and then start reading.
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Then the speaker has a second problem because people are gonna
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be reading different
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SPEAKER_01: things at different times.
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The methodical readers are gonna start at the top and work
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their way down.
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SPEAKER_01: The fast readers are already two bullet points ahead.
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SPEAKER_01: The visual people are looking at the chart and we're all over the place.
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SPEAKER_01: It's interesting, you said he had 80 slides.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm not opposed to having a lot of slides in a deck.
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SPEAKER_01: In fact, one of the questions people will ask me, they say,
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SPEAKER_01: I've got half an hour to speak or an hour to speak.
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SPEAKER_01: How many slides should I use?
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SPEAKER_01: I always say, my answer is always the same.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
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SPEAKER_01: Maybe 10, maybe 50, maybe 17.
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The number of slides is less important than the fact that each
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slide should be well-designed.
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So you could easily have a 40 slides in a 20 minute
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presentation if the slides are
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SPEAKER_01: well designed and they help move the presentation along.
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SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, what you usually get is the worst of both worlds.
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SPEAKER_01: You get a lot of slides poorly designed.
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SPEAKER_01: And so that's not great.
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SPEAKER_00: Yes,
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I became nervous because I knew that there was going to be a
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lot of information on
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SPEAKER_00: each slide.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of times people will tell me,
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SPEAKER_01: they say,
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SPEAKER_01: yes,
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but I hand out the slides at the end so that people have a
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takeaway document.
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And I will ask them,
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I say,
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so everything I need to know is in the slides.
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SPEAKER_01: And they say, yeah, it's all there.
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SPEAKER_01: And I say, that's fantastic.
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SPEAKER_01: Why do I need you then?
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SPEAKER_01: And I don't mean that in a bad way, but it's a sincere question.
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SPEAKER_01: If everything's in the slides, like I said, make it a PDF.
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SPEAKER_01: People can read faster than you can speak.
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But if you use the slides as a clean support tool for a message
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that you want to
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SPEAKER_01: share with me,
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SPEAKER_01: then I'm in.
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SPEAKER_01: Then I want to hear what you have to say.
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SPEAKER_01: A good rule of thumb for slides...
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that I tell clients is that most slides should be like the sign
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beside the auto
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SPEAKER_01: route or the highway.
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You're driving along at 120 kilometers an hour and there's a
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sign coming up that
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SPEAKER_01: says how long to the next gas station and where the next exit is,
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SPEAKER_01: that kind of thing.
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SPEAKER_01: When you're driving at 120,
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SPEAKER_01: 130 kilometers an hour,
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SPEAKER_01: how long do you have to look at the slide,
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SPEAKER_01: at the sign?
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SPEAKER_01: Three, maybe four seconds.
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SPEAKER_01: You get the information, then you have to get back to the road.
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SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, it's dangerous.
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SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the way it should be with most slides.
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SPEAKER_01: For most slides,
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SPEAKER_01: I should be able to look up in a couple seconds,
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SPEAKER_01: get the idea,
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SPEAKER_01: and then get back to the speaker.
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SPEAKER_01: You can have a complex slide from time to time if...
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Number one,
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you bring in elements using a simple animation,
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bring in elements one at a time.
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SPEAKER_01: And number two,
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that you spend the adequate amount of time on that slide so
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that people can absorb
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SPEAKER_01: what you're saying.
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SPEAKER_00: So what I hear you say, John, is help them focus on you.
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Because otherwise their attention is going to compete between
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the slide and you as a speaker.
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SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
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SPEAKER_01: The slide is ancillary.
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SPEAKER_01: The slide is secondary.
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SPEAKER_01: You as the speaker are the most important thing there.
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SPEAKER_00: So usually when we try to speak,
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SPEAKER_00: when we present,
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SPEAKER_00: when we talk in public,
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SPEAKER_00: our goal is to try to perhaps sell a product,
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SPEAKER_00: sell an idea.
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Sometimes maybe we are doing an interview,
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we're trying to sell ourselves and our services.
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SPEAKER_00: That is how we try to influence others.
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SPEAKER_00: So my question to you is, is manipulation related to persuasion?
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SPEAKER_01: It is related.
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SPEAKER_01: And it's funny,
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I was doing a training yesterday and I got the question about
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when we were talking
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SPEAKER_01: about the use of emotion,
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SPEAKER_01: the question was,
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SPEAKER_01: well,
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SPEAKER_01: isn't this just manipulating your audience?
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And I said,
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here's the way I think about it,
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the difference between persuasion and manipulation.
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Persuasion is about getting the audience to do something that
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is good for them,
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SPEAKER_01: that is in their interest,
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SPEAKER_01: or that is in the general interest of society,
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SPEAKER_01: for example,
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SPEAKER_01: something positive.
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SPEAKER_01: And there can be also a benefit for the speaker.
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There's nothing wrong with a mutual benefit situation,
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a win-win situation.
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SPEAKER_01: I think manipulation,
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I think of that as you're trying to get the audience to do
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something that is either
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SPEAKER_01: against their interests or that is a bad thing to do.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, politicians,
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SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, they manipulate people all the time.
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SPEAKER_01: Not all politicians.
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SPEAKER_01: Politicians also persuade.
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SPEAKER_01: But that's an example where you can see manipulation.
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SPEAKER_01: So there's clear overlap because with both persuasion and manipulation,
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SPEAKER_01: you're trying to get other people to do something.
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SPEAKER_01: The question is, what's the end result?
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SPEAKER_01: What's the benefit or the detriment that occurs?
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SPEAKER_01: That's how I think about it.
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SPEAKER_00: Then intention plays a major role.
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SPEAKER_00: In my opinion, a huge role.
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SPEAKER_00: What is the intention?
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SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
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Do you need to be able to influence others and learn these
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techniques in order for
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SPEAKER_00: you to also uncover or spot when somebody is trying to manipulate you?
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I think it definitely makes you more aware when you're in the
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opposite situation,
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SPEAKER_01: when somebody's trying to influence you.
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SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people have an instinct for it.
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SPEAKER_01: Did you ever read, what was it, Malcolm Gladwell's book, Blink?
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SPEAKER_01: This idea about how first impressions are often the correct ones.
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Like there's something that it just doesn't feel right in a
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case like that.
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SPEAKER_01: That, you know, I think a lot of people have that, that sense.
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SPEAKER_01: But if you study rhetoric and persuasion,
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SPEAKER_01: and then you can also get into this whole field of,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: cognitive biases and things like that,
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SPEAKER_01: then it's easier to spot.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: So basically, our gut feeling plays a major role as well.
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SPEAKER_01: I think so.
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SPEAKER_00: I think so.
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SPEAKER_00: That's very interesting.
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SPEAKER_00: I like that.
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SPEAKER_00: The whole idea about intention.
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So becoming a good speaker,
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learning the art of influencing others,
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it's what you do with it.
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SPEAKER_00: Sure.
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SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, businesses who have to sell a product or a service,
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SPEAKER_01: There's nothing wrong with that.
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SPEAKER_01: If they don't sell their products or services,
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SPEAKER_01: they're not going to be in business for very long.
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SPEAKER_01: The question is, are their products good quality products?
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SPEAKER_01: Have they been sourced in a sustainable way?
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SPEAKER_01: Are they respecting labor laws?
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SPEAKER_01: That kind of thing.
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SPEAKER_00: And you can have the best idea,
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SPEAKER_00: the best product,
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SPEAKER_00: but if you don't know how to tell people about it,
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SPEAKER_00: how to sell it,
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SPEAKER_00: how to persuade others,
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SPEAKER_00: it's not going to happen.
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SPEAKER_01: No, no.
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SPEAKER_01: The inferior product may well win because they've got a better pitch,
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SPEAKER_01: they've got a better story to tell.
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SPEAKER_00: If we try to understand the basic of persuasion, where does it begin?
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SPEAKER_00: Is it a mindset?
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SPEAKER_00: Is it a skill?
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SPEAKER_00: Is it deeper than that?
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SPEAKER_01: I think it's a couple of things.
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SPEAKER_01: I think...
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SPEAKER_01: Belief plays a big role in it.
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First belief in yourself,
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belief in the idea that you are selling as well.
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Many times people will say to me,
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how do I give a presentation about an idea I don't believe in?
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SPEAKER_01: And I'm always honest with them.
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SPEAKER_01: I say, it's not easy.
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SPEAKER_01: It's not easy.
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SPEAKER_01: Beyond that,
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SPEAKER_01: then we get into the different techniques of persuasion,
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and we go back 2,300 years to ancient Greece and Aristotle and
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rhetoric and the
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SPEAKER_01: whole basis of persuasion,
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SPEAKER_01: logos,
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SPEAKER_01: ethos,
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SPEAKER_01: and pathos.
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SPEAKER_01: And for people who don't know what these things are,
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SPEAKER_01: even if you've never heard these terms,
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SPEAKER_01: you know instinctively what they are.
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SPEAKER_01: Logos essentially is persuasion by logic.
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SPEAKER_01: It's things like the coherence of your presentation,
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SPEAKER_01: facts,
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SPEAKER_01: statistics,
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SPEAKER_01: data,
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SPEAKER_01: very left brain thinking.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm a lawyer by training, so I'm very logos oriented.
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SPEAKER_01: Everything has to be very structured and clear for me.
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The second pillar,
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ethos,
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is persuasion by virtue of the speaker's personal credibility.
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SPEAKER_01: Things like the person's reputation,
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SPEAKER_01: authority,
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SPEAKER_01: expertise,
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SPEAKER_01: that kind of thing,
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SPEAKER_01: that can help influence.
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SPEAKER_01: Also, part of ethos, I mean,
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SPEAKER_01: These things I mentioned,
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SPEAKER_01: reputation,
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SPEAKER_01: authority,
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SPEAKER_01: expertise,
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SPEAKER_01: you build these up by living your life,
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SPEAKER_01: by going through your career.
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SPEAKER_01: And if you're junior in your career,
17:49
there's a chance that you're not going to have as much
17:52
reputation or authority as
17:54
SPEAKER_01: somebody more senior.
17:55
SPEAKER_01: And that's just life.
17:56
SPEAKER_01: You build it up over time.
17:58
But you can also have an influence on your own ethos as seen by
18:03
the audience by
18:04
SPEAKER_01: your stage presence.
18:06
SPEAKER_01: Are you looking at people?
18:07
SPEAKER_01: Are you pausing?
18:08
SPEAKER_01: Are you doing all of these nice gestures on stage and not,
18:14
SPEAKER_01: you know,
18:14
SPEAKER_01: you're not looking down,
18:15
SPEAKER_01: you're not staring at the slides.
18:17
SPEAKER_01: That makes a difference as well.
18:19
SPEAKER_01: So there's logos ethos.
18:20
SPEAKER_01: And then the third pillar is pathos.
18:23
Interesting word comes from the Greek word related to both
18:27
emotion and suffering.
18:28
SPEAKER_01: And so we get words today in English and other languages like sympathy,
18:33
SPEAKER_01: empathy,
18:34
SPEAKER_01: pathology,
18:35
SPEAKER_01: pathogen.
18:36
SPEAKER_01: All of these relate to pathos, which is persuasion by emotion.
18:41
SPEAKER_01: storytelling, humor, surprise, that kind of thing.
18:47
SPEAKER_01: So those are the three main pillars.
18:49
And there's a fourth pillar,
18:51
though,
18:52
which I think is important and it's less well known.
18:55
SPEAKER_01: It's called kairos.
18:58
SPEAKER_01: Kairos is an interesting word.
18:59
SPEAKER_01: The Greeks have two words for the concept of time.
19:03
SPEAKER_01: There's chronos,
19:05
SPEAKER_01: and we get words like chronology or chronological from chronos,
19:09
SPEAKER_01: which is the time we're most familiar with.
19:13
The time of,
19:13
you know,
19:14
the hours going by in a day or the months going by in a year.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: But then there's the second concept of time,
19:20
SPEAKER_01: kairos,
19:21
SPEAKER_01: which means the appropriate time,
19:24
SPEAKER_01: the right time to make an argument,
19:27
SPEAKER_01: the right time to sell an idea,
19:30
SPEAKER_01: and also the right time to use emotion,
19:33
SPEAKER_01: the right time to use facts and logic.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: So all of this plays a role in persuasion.
19:41
SPEAKER_00: That's very interesting.
19:43
SPEAKER_00: So timing is also important.
19:46
SPEAKER_01: Sure, sure.
19:48
SPEAKER_01: You often see an event might happen.
19:53
Let's say there's a severe drought or flooding or an unexpected
19:59
weather event.
20:00
And people who are very concerned about global warming and
20:06
climate change...
20:07
SPEAKER_01: They might think,
20:09
SPEAKER_01: well,
20:09
SPEAKER_01: in light of what has just happened,
20:11
now is a good time once again to remind people about the
20:15
importance of taking
20:17
SPEAKER_01: certain steps to help reduce the impact of global warming.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: This is very interesting.
20:25
And do you need all four to be influential or can you get away
20:33
with one or two?
20:34
SPEAKER_01: No, I think you need them all.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously Kairos underpins everything.
20:39
SPEAKER_01: You want to bring the right argument forth at the right time.
20:43
Then you've got the other three pillars,
20:45
the logic,
20:46
the credibility and the emotion.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: And the way I like to think of those three is as follows.
20:54
I want my credibility in the eyes of the audience to be as high
20:58
as possible.
20:59
SPEAKER_01: I want them to think he knows what he's talking about.
21:03
He's really thinking about what might be valuable to me and
21:06
he's going to give me
21:07
SPEAKER_01: some value for my time.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: I want it to be as high as possible.
21:12
The logic,
21:13
the logos,
21:14
and the pathos,
21:14
the emotion,
21:15
these are more variable.
21:18
SPEAKER_01: These are more variable.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: You want,
21:20
SPEAKER_01: depending on who the audience is,
21:22
SPEAKER_01: what you're talking about,
21:23
SPEAKER_01: what the situation is,
21:25
SPEAKER_01: you're going to want to use more of one and less of the other.
21:29
SPEAKER_01: In the typical business presentation,
21:31
SPEAKER_01: you are almost always going to have more logic,
21:34
SPEAKER_01: more logos than pathos.
21:36
SPEAKER_01: And that's fine.
21:37
But
21:37
Don't leave the emotion out altogether because,
21:41
you know,
21:42
people should be excited.
21:43
If you're selling a new product or service,
21:45
there should be some level of emotion there.
21:47
SPEAKER_01: You can tap into emotion.
21:49
SPEAKER_01: It's like a recipe.
21:51
SPEAKER_01: You want to have the ingredients in the right amounts.
21:54
SPEAKER_01: And that's what really makes the best impact.
21:56
SPEAKER_02: Mm hmm.
21:57
SPEAKER_00: Mm hmm.
21:57
So when I hear you say storytelling,
22:01
emotion is important,
22:03
even in business presentations.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: Storytelling is huge.
22:07
SPEAKER_01: And it still surprises me how...
22:11
SPEAKER_01: Little it is used.
22:12
It's being used more these days than it was,
22:14
but there's still so much more potential for it.
22:17
And the reason is that stories are something that are
22:22
fundamental to the human experience.
22:24
SPEAKER_01: I mean, stories have been around for thousands of years.
22:27
They've been around a lot longer than PowerPoint and Excel and
22:31
all these things.
22:32
SPEAKER_01: we use today.
22:33
SPEAKER_01: And there have been tests that have been done.
22:36
SPEAKER_01: I read about a test,
22:37
SPEAKER_01: I think it was conducted by Stanford University and The Economist,
22:43
SPEAKER_01: the magazine The Economist.
22:46
SPEAKER_01: And they put people...
22:49
SPEAKER_01: Well,
22:49
SPEAKER_01: first of all,
22:50
they put people in fMRI imaging and they studied the brain when
22:55
the person was
22:55
SPEAKER_01: listening to a story.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: And when we hear a story, different parts of the brain light up.
23:01
SPEAKER_01: The amygdala related to emotion,
23:04
SPEAKER_01: the prefrontal cortex,
23:05
SPEAKER_01: which is for memory,
23:07
SPEAKER_01: Wernicke's area,
23:08
SPEAKER_01: which is for language processing.
23:11
And then they also did this experiment where they had two
23:14
groups of people.
23:15
SPEAKER_01: And group one, they gave them a bunch of facts.
23:19
Group two,
23:20
they gave them the same facts,
23:22
but they packaged them in a story.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: Group two,
23:26
the people in group two were able to remember many more of the
23:29
facts because they
23:32
SPEAKER_01: could remember the story.
23:34
SPEAKER_01: And so this is the power of a story.
23:36
SPEAKER_01: Stories are memorable.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: They stick and it's got to be related to your message as well.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: Has to be related.
23:46
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
23:46
You can tell a nice story,
23:47
but if it has no relation,
23:48
then it's just confusing.
23:50
SPEAKER_00: The best advice I've received is tell a story and make a point.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: Yes, tell a story, make a point.
23:59
Too often,
23:59
however,
23:59
it's maybe one story and then point,
24:02
point,
24:02
point,
24:02
point,
24:02
point.
24:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it's true.
24:05
And this discussion reminds me of a fantastic article that I
24:11
read in the Harvard
24:12
SPEAKER_01: Business Review years ago.
24:14
SPEAKER_01: It was called The Four Truths of the Storyteller.
24:16
SPEAKER_01: And it was written by a man named Peter Guber.
24:19
SPEAKER_01: He's a very successful businessman in the U.S.,
24:23
SPEAKER_01: And among his companies is one called Mandalay Entertainment.
24:26
And they've made some big Hollywood movies like Seven Years in
24:30
Tibet with Brad Pitt
24:32
SPEAKER_01: or Legend of Sleepy Hollow with Johnny Depp.
24:34
SPEAKER_01: And this article caught my attention because in it,
24:38
uh the author talks about how people in business in companies
24:44
organizations people
24:45
like you and me how we can use storytelling techniques from
24:49
hollywood in a business
24:51
SPEAKER_01: presentation and very simply he said for a
24:54
story to make a real impact,
24:57
there have to be four truths,
24:58
four things that are true about it.
25:00
SPEAKER_01: Number one is truth to the speaker,
25:02
SPEAKER_01: which means you as a speaker have to feel something for the story.
25:06
SPEAKER_01: It has to mean something to you,
25:08
which is why personal stories are so great because they're part
25:11
of who we are.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: The second truth is truth to the audience.
25:15
SPEAKER_01: There's got to be something in your story that
25:18
SPEAKER_01: that if I'm in the audience, I can take and apply in my life.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: For example,
25:23
SPEAKER_01: you know,
25:23
SPEAKER_01: companies hire people who have done amazing things like,
25:27
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
25:27
SPEAKER_01: maybe they've climbed Mount Everest.
25:30
they bring them in and they give a talk about their climbing
25:33
Mount Everest.
25:33
SPEAKER_01: Well,
25:33
how many people from the company do you think are going to go
25:36
climb Mount Everest
25:37
SPEAKER_01: afterwards?
25:37
SPEAKER_01: I'm guessing zero.
25:38
SPEAKER_01: That's my guess.
25:39
SPEAKER_01: So why bring the person in?
25:41
SPEAKER_01: Well,
25:41
maybe there's something in her story about teamwork or
25:44
something in her story about
25:46
SPEAKER_01: resilience in the face of challenges.
25:48
SPEAKER_01: That's truth to the audience.
25:50
SPEAKER_01: The third one is truth to the moment,
25:52
SPEAKER_01: which means you tell the right story in the right amount of detail and
25:57
SPEAKER_01: at the right time.
25:58
SPEAKER_01: So people sometimes like to tell a story which goes on and on and on.
26:02
You gotta be able to keep it tight as well and condensed for
26:07
the situation.
26:08
SPEAKER_01: And then the fourth truth is what he calls truth to the mission.
26:13
SPEAKER_01: How does this story help the audience
26:17
SPEAKER_01: move towards the mission,
26:18
SPEAKER_01: the objective that you have set for them,
26:21
SPEAKER_01: which brings us all the way back to this idea of persuasion.
26:25
SPEAKER_00: So these four steps are important because when I hear them,
26:30
SPEAKER_00: I think about emotionally connecting with the audience,
26:35
SPEAKER_00: with your listeners.
26:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
26:38
SPEAKER_01: This is emotional connection.
26:40
And emotional connection is really important,
26:43
especially when you're trying to sell an idea.
26:46
SPEAKER_01: When you're selling an idea, you're selling it on two levels.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: You're selling it in the head and you're also selling it in the heart.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: And if I'm pitching an idea,
26:57
SPEAKER_01: let's say I'm pitching to you,
26:59
SPEAKER_01: I'd like you to invest,
27:01
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: half a million francs, half a million euros in my idea.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: And I've got 10 minutes to pitch you.
27:07
The chances that you are going to invest after my 10 minutes
27:11
are essentially zero.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: You're going to want to think about it.
27:15
SPEAKER_01: You're going to want to do some research.
27:17
SPEAKER_01: You're going to want to read the prospectus, all of these things.
27:20
SPEAKER_01: And that's fine.
27:21
SPEAKER_01: But in those 10 minutes,
27:23
SPEAKER_01: I have a chance to get you excited about my idea,
27:27
SPEAKER_01: to get you interested,
27:28
SPEAKER_01: to get you to want to know more.
27:30
SPEAKER_01: Was it Daniel Kahneman?
27:33
I think it was Daniel Kahneman,
27:34
the Nobel Prize winner who wrote Thinking Fast and Slow.
27:37
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
27:37
SPEAKER_01: He said,
27:38
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
27:38
SPEAKER_01: he said when it comes to purchasing,
27:41
SPEAKER_01: people buy on emotion and then they justify with logic.
27:47
SPEAKER_01: And it's true.
27:49
I heard once,
27:50
I don't remember who it,
27:52
what the author is,
27:54
the author's name.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: He said, we are not rational.
27:58
SPEAKER_00: We are rationalizing.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: Ah, I like that.
28:03
And that connects to your point about following your emotions
28:08
and then justifying that decision.
28:12
SPEAKER_01: Very much so.
28:13
Let's say you're a leader and you are giving a talk or you want
28:19
to improve your
28:20
SPEAKER_00: communication skills.
28:22
SPEAKER_00: How can you stay authentic and also be influential or persuasive?
28:31
SPEAKER_01: I like what the Irish playwright Oscar Wilde said.
28:34
SPEAKER_01: He said, be yourself, everyone else is already taken.
28:37
SPEAKER_01: And I think it comes with practice.
28:42
I think the more you do it,
28:43
the more you speak,
28:44
the more comfortable you get with speaking.
28:47
I think leaders who are serious about being authentic,
28:50
I think they should...
28:52
SPEAKER_01: they should go in advance.
28:56
SPEAKER_01: They should be proactive in terms of their feedback.
28:58
They should seek out a few trusted advisors whom they know
29:01
might be in the room
29:02
SPEAKER_01: when they speak and ask them for,
29:04
SPEAKER_01: say,
29:04
SPEAKER_01: listen,
29:05
SPEAKER_01: I really want you to tell me afterwards
29:08
SPEAKER_01: Was it me up there on the stage?
29:10
SPEAKER_01: Did it feel authentic?
29:12
SPEAKER_01: And I think people can be authentic.
29:14
SPEAKER_01: And really that's,
29:15
SPEAKER_01: in many ways,
29:16
SPEAKER_01: it should be the easiest thing to be because you're just being yourself.
29:22
SPEAKER_01: I think the highest compliment I've ever received,
29:25
SPEAKER_01: and I don't get this always,
29:26
but every now and then I will speak at an event and then
29:29
afterwards at the cocktail
29:31
SPEAKER_01: party,
29:31
SPEAKER_01: I'm talking maybe one-on-one with somebody and they'll say,
29:35
SPEAKER_01: you know,
29:36
SPEAKER_01: you're exactly...
29:38
SPEAKER_01: like you are here one-on-one, like you were on stage.
29:41
And I'm really happy whenever I hear that because it means like
29:44
I was being
29:45
SPEAKER_01: authentic in the moment.
29:47
SPEAKER_01: And it's, you know, it's something comes with practice.
29:50
SPEAKER_01: And the thing is,
29:52
SPEAKER_01: people can tell,
29:53
audiences are pretty smart and they can usually tell if
29:56
somebody is faking it.
29:57
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
29:58
SPEAKER_01: there are some people who can fake it really well,
30:00
SPEAKER_01: but most people,
30:01
SPEAKER_01: I think it shows if they're not being themselves.
30:05
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you're familiar with,
30:08
SPEAKER_01: he was a great man,
30:09
SPEAKER_01: Hans Rosling,
30:11
SPEAKER_01: the doctor from Sweden at the Karolinska Institute,
30:14
SPEAKER_01: who was known as the rock star of statistics,
30:18
SPEAKER_01: and his first TED Talk is still a classic.
30:21
When I was working at the World Health Organization years ago,
30:27
he came to give a talk.
30:29
And when I found out that he was going to give a talk,
30:31
it was at 10 o'clock in the morning.
30:34
SPEAKER_01: I got to the office that day at 7.
30:36
SPEAKER_01: And I did about an hour and a half of work.
30:39
SPEAKER_01: And then I packed up some documents.
30:41
SPEAKER_01: And I went over to the room an hour and a half early.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: I said, I want to be there early.
30:46
SPEAKER_01: I get there.
30:48
SPEAKER_01: There's one person in the room and it's Hans Rosling.
30:51
SPEAKER_01: He's on stage setting everything up.
30:54
SPEAKER_01: I sat in the front row.
30:55
SPEAKER_01: I didn't disturb him.
30:56
SPEAKER_01: I thought I'm going to let him get set up.
30:58
SPEAKER_01: He worked for another five minutes.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: He saw me.
31:00
SPEAKER_01: He came over and we had this 10, 15 minute conversation.
31:04
And for anyone who has seen Rosling in his talks,
31:07
he is very dynamic and he's engaged.
31:10
SPEAKER_01: He's running around.
31:11
SPEAKER_01: He's doing all these things.
31:13
SPEAKER_01: One-on-one, he was exactly like that.
31:16
SPEAKER_01: Like, it was him.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: It was the same guy I'd seen in these videos.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: He was exactly that enthusiastic.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: And that,
31:23
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:24
SPEAKER_01: I'd already had huge respect for him,
31:25
SPEAKER_01: but my respect went up a notch that day because,
31:29
SPEAKER_01: like,
31:30
SPEAKER_01: it was him really being him.
31:32
SPEAKER_01: I was really sad five, six years ago when he passed away.
31:36
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, that's a great example of being authentic.
31:40
SPEAKER_00: What I hear you say,
31:41
SPEAKER_00: John,
31:42
SPEAKER_00: is I think being authentic,
31:47
SPEAKER_00: you can be yourself if you are present on the stage.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: That's a really nice way to put it.
31:54
SPEAKER_01: You are in the moment, you are there for your audience.
31:58
SPEAKER_01: When you realize that you are not important,
32:03
SPEAKER_01: it's not about you,
32:04
SPEAKER_01: it's not about your idea,
32:05
SPEAKER_01: your product,
32:06
SPEAKER_01: your service.
32:07
SPEAKER_01: Even if there are people you're trying to help,
32:09
SPEAKER_01: it's not even about them,
32:11
SPEAKER_01: it's always about the audience.
32:14
SPEAKER_01: But it's about the audience.
32:17
SPEAKER_01: What I always tell people, I say, look, here's the promise I make to you.
32:20
SPEAKER_01: I said,
32:20
SPEAKER_01: when you go into any speaking situation,
32:23
SPEAKER_01: asking yourself,
32:24
SPEAKER_01: how can I make this time valuable for the audience?
32:28
How can I really give them something of value for the time that
32:31
they are giving me?
32:33
SPEAKER_01: Because if we step back,
32:34
SPEAKER_01: whatever insight,
32:36
SPEAKER_01: inspiration,
32:37
SPEAKER_01: information I can give an audience,
32:40
SPEAKER_01: they can get a million times that
32:43
SPEAKER_01: from Google or from AI now.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: But what they're giving me
32:48
SPEAKER_01: an hour of their time, they can never get back.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: And when I think about it that way,
32:54
it really impresses upon me the importance of the opportunity
33:00
I've been given.
33:01
SPEAKER_01: And a calculation I always do,
33:03
and I encourage your listeners who might have presentations to
33:08
give in the future,
33:09
SPEAKER_01: a really simple calculation.
33:11
SPEAKER_01: I take the amount of time I'm given to speak
33:15
and I multiply it by the number of people that I think will be
33:19
in the audience.
33:20
SPEAKER_01: So for example, yesterday I did a two hour session with 50 people.
33:27
SPEAKER_01: But that's not two hours.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: It's two hours of his time and two hours of her time and two, two, two.
33:32
SPEAKER_01: It's two times 50, which is 100 hours.
33:35
SPEAKER_01: So now if we think about the average work week,
33:37
SPEAKER_01: which is more or less 40 hours,
33:40
SPEAKER_01: that's two and a half full-time work weeks for one professional.
33:45
SPEAKER_01: That's a valuable resource.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: And I want to respect it by giving something of value in return.
33:51
I remember one time when I was sitting in the audience and I
33:55
was listening to a
33:56
SPEAKER_00: good speaker,
33:58
SPEAKER_00: but I noticed that he was not prepared.
34:02
SPEAKER_00: And I looked around and I think we were two,
34:05
three hundred people in the audience and I could see people
34:10
shake their heads
34:11
because they were disappointed and we could feel that he wasn't
34:15
really prepared for
34:17
SPEAKER_00: this moment.
34:19
SPEAKER_00: And so I think it ties back to what you're saying.
34:21
SPEAKER_00: It's about your audience,
34:23
SPEAKER_00: respecting them,
34:25
SPEAKER_00: and also asking yourself before each presentation,
34:29
SPEAKER_00: what is my intention here?
34:32
SPEAKER_00: Who is the most important person right now?
34:36
SPEAKER_00: And that is the audience.
34:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for me, it's unacceptable if a speaker is not prepared.
34:45
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
34:45
SPEAKER_01: the only justification is in a case where,
34:50
let's say I'm your boss and we're in a company and I've got a
34:54
presentation tomorrow
34:56
SPEAKER_01: and something comes up and I say,
34:58
SPEAKER_01: Ibrahim,
34:58
SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry,
34:58
SPEAKER_01: I can't do this.
34:59
You're going to have to do the presentation and I give it to
35:01
you last minute.
35:02
SPEAKER_01: Okay, you do what you can with the limited time you have.
35:06
SPEAKER_01: But for a speaker who has time,
35:08
SPEAKER_01: who knows that,
35:08
SPEAKER_01: oh,
35:09
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to be speaking at this conference in a month's time,
35:11
SPEAKER_01: you have to prepare.
35:13
SPEAKER_01: You've got to find time.
35:14
You've got to think about the relationship between your message
35:17
and your audience.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: And you, the three, you want to figure out what's your objective?
35:22
SPEAKER_01: What is your message?
35:23
SPEAKER_01: Why should the audience care?
35:25
SPEAKER_01: You want to build it up.
35:27
Yeah,
35:29
I shake my head when I hear stories like that,
35:31
but I hear it all the time.
35:34
SPEAKER_00: It's actually very common, I think.
35:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:38
SPEAKER_01: And I don't, you know, because...
35:41
SPEAKER_01: It's a missed opportunity.
35:43
SPEAKER_01: Well, first and foremost, it's lack of respect for the audience.
35:46
SPEAKER_01: But beyond that,
35:47
it's a missed opportunity because however many people were in
35:51
your audience,
35:52
SPEAKER_01: two,
35:52
SPEAKER_01: three hundred,
35:53
SPEAKER_01: that's two,
35:54
three hundred people who are leaving with a very bad impression
35:57
of the speaker and
35:58
probably by extension the speaker's company if he was
36:01
representing a company or
36:02
SPEAKER_01: organization.
36:04
SPEAKER_01: That's the thing.
36:05
SPEAKER_01: And this is why...
36:07
This is why great leaders of companies and organizations
36:10
understand the importance
36:12
SPEAKER_01: of public speaking and communication.
36:15
I've read in recent years several studies that have been done
36:21
by companies like
36:23
SPEAKER_01: LinkedIn,
36:24
SPEAKER_01: Microsoft,
36:25
SPEAKER_01: Fast Company,
36:26
SPEAKER_01: others,
36:27
where they sent questionnaires to the heads of companies and
36:31
organizations,
36:32
SPEAKER_01: and they were essentially asking them a single question.
36:36
SPEAKER_01: The question was,
36:37
when you are looking to hire people who you think could be
36:40
great future leaders of
36:42
SPEAKER_01: this company,
36:43
SPEAKER_01: of this organization,
36:44
SPEAKER_01: what are the skills you're looking for?
36:45
SPEAKER_01: Well,
36:46
SPEAKER_01: consistently at the top is the ability to communicate well,
36:50
SPEAKER_01: to speak well,
36:51
because great leaders know that the people that they send out
36:56
representing their
36:57
SPEAKER_01: company
36:58
SPEAKER_01: at conferences or with other clients,
37:00
those people are the face of the company and people are going
37:04
to form impressions
37:05
SPEAKER_01: about the company based on this person.
37:07
SPEAKER_01: It's like, it's like airlines.
37:10
SPEAKER_01: Everybody has an airline that they don't like.
37:13
SPEAKER_01: And it's usually because of one bad experience.
37:15
SPEAKER_01: One bad experience.
37:17
SPEAKER_01: I've had people tell me,
37:19
SPEAKER_01: oh,
37:20
SPEAKER_01: this airline,
37:21
SPEAKER_01: I hate this airline for whatever reason,
37:22
SPEAKER_01: but I've only had good experiences on that airline.
37:26
SPEAKER_01: And yet we form a broader opinion based on a single experience.
37:33
What common mistakes do you see people making when they are
37:38
trying to be persuasive?
37:43
SPEAKER_01: I think the biggest mistake
37:46
SPEAKER_01: besides lack of preparation,
37:49
SPEAKER_01: lack of proper preparation,
37:50
SPEAKER_01: I think the biggest mistake is people try to convey too much information.
37:56
SPEAKER_01: They try to do too much.
37:58
They try to pack in just one more fact,
38:01
one more statistic,
38:02
one more reason.
38:04
SPEAKER_01: And
38:07
SPEAKER_01: I've read a lot in recent years about the power of simplicity.
38:11
SPEAKER_01: And you look at the masters of any domain,
38:16
SPEAKER_01: Chopin in classical music,
38:18
SPEAKER_01: Coco Chanel in haute couture,
38:21
SPEAKER_01: Steve Jobs in IT,
38:22
SPEAKER_01: Bruce Lee in the martial arts,
38:24
SPEAKER_01: and it goes on and on and on and on.
38:27
SPEAKER_01: They all talk about
38:28
about the radical importance of simplicity,
38:32
of eliminating what is not necessary.
38:35
SPEAKER_01: There's a French author,
38:38
SPEAKER_01: Antoine de Saint-Exupéry,
38:39
SPEAKER_01: who wrote the book,
38:41
SPEAKER_01: The Little Prince,
38:42
SPEAKER_01: Le Petit Prince,
38:43
SPEAKER_01: which is a classic,
38:44
SPEAKER_01: which I encourage everybody to read.
38:46
SPEAKER_01: It's a kid's book, but a kid's book for adults, if I can put it that way.
38:50
SPEAKER_01: And he said something that I love.
38:53
SPEAKER_01: He said,
38:54
SPEAKER_01: perfection isn't achieved when there's nothing more to add,
38:57
SPEAKER_01: but when there's nothing more to take away.
39:01
SPEAKER_01: And I see this all the time,
39:03
SPEAKER_01: people trying to add just one more thing,
39:06
SPEAKER_01: just one more thing,
39:07
SPEAKER_01: just one more thing.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: It reminds me of years ago,
39:11
SPEAKER_01: many,
39:12
SPEAKER_01: many years ago,
39:12
SPEAKER_01: I was invited by IBM to a conference here in Switzerland.
39:18
SPEAKER_01: Full day conference,
39:19
SPEAKER_01: lots of people,
39:20
SPEAKER_01: there were other companies there,
39:22
SPEAKER_01: there were breakout sessions,
39:23
SPEAKER_01: very interesting day.
39:24
SPEAKER_01: The keynote speaker,
39:26
The keynote speaker at the time was very senior in the company,
39:30
a very senior guy.
39:32
SPEAKER_01: And he,
39:33
SPEAKER_01: his keynote,
39:34
SPEAKER_01: which was about a half hour long,
39:36
SPEAKER_01: as I remember,
39:37
was going to be about new initiatives that IBM was working on
39:41
at the time.
39:43
SPEAKER_01: And I was introduced to him in the morning and he said,
39:46
SPEAKER_01: oh,
39:46
SPEAKER_01: I'd really appreciate your feedback on my talk.
39:48
SPEAKER_01: And I said, absolutely, I'd be happy to.
39:51
SPEAKER_01: And
39:53
SPEAKER_01: We get into the theater and it's all full,
39:56
SPEAKER_01: 200 people,
39:58
SPEAKER_01: excellent speaker,
39:59
SPEAKER_01: really personable on stage,
40:01
SPEAKER_01: like really nice presence,
40:03
SPEAKER_01: nice introduction.
40:04
Then he started talking about the first new initiative that IBM
40:08
was working on.
40:10
SPEAKER_01: And I remember getting really interested
40:12
SPEAKER_01: And then just as I'm really wanting to know more, he went to number two.
40:16
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
40:18
SPEAKER_01: Then came number three, number four, number five.
40:20
SPEAKER_01: In the end, because I counted, in the end, he did 14 things.
40:24
SPEAKER_01: And it was just like wave after wave.
40:26
SPEAKER_01: And when I met him after,
40:28
I told him all the things that he did well because he was an
40:31
excellent speaker.
40:32
But then I said,
40:33
look,
40:33
if I'm going to give you one piece of advice,
40:35
it's this.
40:36
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
40:36
Next time,
40:37
don't talk about 14 things because honestly,
40:40
I can't remember any of them.
40:41
SPEAKER_01: It was too much.
40:42
SPEAKER_01: Pick three and go into detail.
40:44
SPEAKER_01: And I'll never forget his reaction.
40:46
SPEAKER_01: He said, damn it.
40:48
SPEAKER_01: And he punched his fist into his hand.
40:50
SPEAKER_01: He said, damn it.
40:51
SPEAKER_01: This is what I thought.
40:52
SPEAKER_01: I said, we're doing too much.
40:54
SPEAKER_01: But I was told you got to talk about everything.
40:56
SPEAKER_01: And so even senior people get this pressure.
41:00
SPEAKER_01: And it's the wrong choice.
41:02
SPEAKER_01: Had he said,
41:04
Today at IBM,
41:05
you know,
41:05
we are working on over a dozen really exciting projects.
41:10
And today I want to share three of them with you and then gone
41:13
into the details and
41:14
SPEAKER_01: people leave and they remember those three things,
41:16
SPEAKER_01: but they're also thinking,
41:18
SPEAKER_01: gee,
41:18
SPEAKER_01: I wonder what else they're working on.
41:20
SPEAKER_01: He would have, that would have been perfect.
41:23
SPEAKER_00: The power of three.
41:25
SPEAKER_00: Power of three, the power of simplicity.
41:28
SPEAKER_00: And then when you share three things with them and they're curious,
41:33
SPEAKER_00: they're going to come back to you.
41:35
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
41:36
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
41:37
SPEAKER_01: That's the best.
41:38
SPEAKER_01: That's the best.
41:39
SPEAKER_01: When you've given them enough to be interested, to want to know more.
41:42
And then you sit down in a meeting and you pull out all the
41:46
details and the
41:47
statistics and the graphs and all of the complex stuff that
41:50
they have to go
41:50
SPEAKER_01: through.
41:51
SPEAKER_00: This is very interesting because sometimes,
41:53
let's say I'm sitting at a meeting with a client or I'm sitting
41:57
in the audience and
41:57
SPEAKER_00: listening to somebody speak.
42:00
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes when people talk just too much,
42:05
SPEAKER_00: when they don't know when to,
42:07
SPEAKER_00: you know,
42:08
SPEAKER_00: if you don't have anything to say,
42:10
SPEAKER_00: don't say anything,
42:11
SPEAKER_00: just sit down.
42:12
SPEAKER_00: But sometimes people ramble on and on and on.
42:15
SPEAKER_00: And you can just see that when they do that, people stop listening.
42:20
But then when you have something to say or when you see a
42:23
speaker or a leader and
42:26
SPEAKER_00: they have something important to say and they say that in a clear,
42:30
SPEAKER_00: concise manner and they just sit down,
42:33
SPEAKER_00: that's more powerful than just talking and talking without no direction.
42:38
SPEAKER_01: It's like what the American President Franklin Roosevelt said,
42:43
SPEAKER_01: be clear,
42:44
SPEAKER_01: be brief,
42:45
SPEAKER_01: be clear,
42:46
SPEAKER_01: be seated.
42:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:48
SPEAKER_01: say what you have to say, don't say anything more, and then sit down.
42:52
SPEAKER_00: I think we need that advice.
42:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we all need that advice.
42:56
SPEAKER_01: And I mean,
42:56
SPEAKER_01: one way people can speak less,
42:58
SPEAKER_01: I think is the,
42:59
SPEAKER_01: well,
43:00
SPEAKER_01: not I don't think I know,
43:01
SPEAKER_01: is the power of the pause,
43:02
SPEAKER_01: the power of silence.
43:04
I tell people that learning to be comfortable with silence is
43:10
one of the most
43:10
SPEAKER_01: powerful skills any speaker can learn,
43:14
SPEAKER_01: to leave a little bit of space.
43:17
SPEAKER_01: for the audience.
43:18
SPEAKER_01: And it's not easy.
43:19
And I,
43:19
especially if you're starting out as a speaker,
43:22
I know it's not easy.
43:22
You're on stage and you say something and you pause and now
43:26
you're looking at the
43:27
SPEAKER_01: audience and you're thinking,
43:28
SPEAKER_01: oh my God,
43:29
SPEAKER_01: everybody's looking at me and I can feel my heart pounding,
43:32
SPEAKER_01: but
43:33
SPEAKER_01: They're looking at you because you're on stage, whatever you're doing.
43:36
If you're on stage,
43:37
they're going to look at you and nobody can feel your heart
43:39
pound.
43:40
SPEAKER_01: But two things happen when you pause.
43:42
SPEAKER_01: Number one, you look good.
43:45
SPEAKER_01: You look confident.
43:46
SPEAKER_01: You're not going to be rushed.
43:47
SPEAKER_01: And that enhances your ethos, your credibility.
43:51
SPEAKER_01: But number two,
43:51
SPEAKER_01: and more importantly,
43:53
SPEAKER_01: you are giving the audience a chance to think about what you've said.
43:58
You're giving them a chance to internalize what you've just
44:02
been speaking about.
44:03
SPEAKER_01: And this is important,
44:04
especially when the audience doesn't know as much as you do
44:08
about the topic.
44:10
SPEAKER_01: Because we all suffer from something known as the curse of knowledge.
44:14
And the curse of knowledge is essentially when you know
44:18
something so well that you
44:22
SPEAKER_01: forget what it was like when you knew nothing about it.
44:26
SPEAKER_01: And whatever it is you're talking about,
44:28
SPEAKER_01: whatever it is I'm talking about,
44:30
SPEAKER_01: there was a time in our lives when we knew nothing about it.
44:33
SPEAKER_01: And so many times people in the audience,
44:36
SPEAKER_01: they are at that same point or not much farther advanced.
44:40
And so they need this extra time because what's obvious to you
44:44
as a speaker is not
44:45
SPEAKER_01: necessarily obvious to the audience.
44:49
So they can use that pausing,
44:52
the pause,
44:54
also to transition between points as well.
44:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
44:59
SPEAKER_00: and I've also seen you,
45:00
SPEAKER_00: John,
45:01
SPEAKER_00: when you start your presentation,
45:02
SPEAKER_00: I remember seeing you for the first time in,
45:04
SPEAKER_00: I think it was 2012 or 2013.
45:08
You were talking about,
45:11
I think you were talking about being in Turkey with your
45:13
daughter.
45:13
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I remember that story.
45:16
SPEAKER_00: And I remember when you started...
45:20
SPEAKER_00: You got the introduction,
45:22
SPEAKER_00: we clapped,
45:23
SPEAKER_00: and you went on the stage,
45:25
SPEAKER_00: and you were just silent for,
45:28
SPEAKER_00: I think,
45:28
SPEAKER_00: three to five seconds,
45:30
SPEAKER_00: and you got our attention.
45:33
And I think a common mistake I see is usually people getting up
45:38
on the stage and
45:39
SPEAKER_00: just starting quickly.
45:41
And people are just scrolling through their phones,
45:45
and they're not focusing on the speaker.
45:48
SPEAKER_00: But when you paused, everybody looked at you.
45:52
And that was powerful because it signaled not only confidence,
45:56
but also presence on the stage.
46:00
It is an important thing to do,
46:03
I think,
46:03
at the beginning of every presentation.
46:05
SPEAKER_01: Take a few seconds for yourself on stage,
46:10
SPEAKER_01: look at the room,
46:11
SPEAKER_01: get comfortable,
46:12
SPEAKER_01: take a deep breath,
46:13
SPEAKER_01: remind yourself that you're there to give the people something of value,
46:18
SPEAKER_01: and then you go.
46:20
SPEAKER_01: And the openings are very important of any presentation.
46:24
SPEAKER_01: Psychologists talk about principles of remembering,
46:27
SPEAKER_01: and two of the most important are the principles of primacy and recency.
46:31
SPEAKER_01: People tend to remember the first things they hear and the last things.
46:36
So your openings and your conclusions should really be
46:40
well-structured and
46:41
SPEAKER_01: well-prepared and well-thought-out.
46:44
SPEAKER_01: In a business presentation, how do people often start?
46:51
SPEAKER_01: And I mean often.
46:53
SPEAKER_01: The title slide has been up for the last couple minutes.
46:56
SPEAKER_01: They come on stage and...
46:58
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so good morning.
47:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm happy to be here, blah, blah, blah.
47:02
SPEAKER_01: You know, the same old, same old thing.
47:05
SPEAKER_01: And,
47:05
SPEAKER_01: you know,
47:06
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to talk about topic X,
47:07
which people have just been reading about for the last two
47:09
minutes anyway.
47:11
So one thing I tell people,
47:14
if you have slides,
47:15
and I'm not against slides,
47:16
I use slides,
47:18
SPEAKER_01: There's no rule that says you have to have a title slide.
47:21
SPEAKER_01: I almost never show a title slide.
47:24
SPEAKER_01: If I hand my slides out afterwards,
47:26
SPEAKER_01: then yes,
47:27
SPEAKER_01: I include the title slide with the date and the event and all of that.
47:31
SPEAKER_01: But there's no rule that says it has to be,
47:33
SPEAKER_01: you have to show it or that it has to be the first thing you show.
47:37
I'll sometimes start with a black slide and then maybe I'll
47:40
tell a story and then
47:41
SPEAKER_01: I'll click into the title slide.
47:44
SPEAKER_01: Or sometimes,
47:45
SPEAKER_01: and I've done this with clients,
47:46
SPEAKER_01: we've taken the title slide and slide number one,
47:49
SPEAKER_01: and we've done this,
47:50
SPEAKER_01: we've swapped them.
47:52
SPEAKER_01: So they start with the slide and then they transition into,
47:57
SPEAKER_01: my name is so-and-so,
47:58
SPEAKER_01: I represent company ABC,
48:00
SPEAKER_01: and today we're going to talk about this.
48:02
SPEAKER_01: And it's different.
48:04
SPEAKER_01: It's such a simple thing to do,
48:05
SPEAKER_01: but because almost nobody does it,
48:08
SPEAKER_01: it catches people's attention and it sticks.
48:12
SPEAKER_00: It sticks.
48:13
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
48:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it sticks.
48:16
SPEAKER_00: What you're saying here is basically start in a powerful way.
48:20
SPEAKER_00: Start with a bang.
48:23
SPEAKER_01: Yes, you get one chance to make a good first impression.
48:26
SPEAKER_01: So you want to seize it.
48:27
SPEAKER_01: You want to hook your audience's attention.
48:30
SPEAKER_01: You could do it with a story.
48:32
SPEAKER_01: You could do it with a question.
48:34
SPEAKER_01: You could do it by getting the audience to reflect on something.
48:37
SPEAKER_01: Three very powerful words that any speaker can use to start their speech.
48:42
SPEAKER_01: Think, remember, imagine.
48:46
SPEAKER_01: Think, remember, imagine.
48:49
SPEAKER_01: For example,
48:51
if I'm giving a talk about how to improve interpersonal
48:55
relationships at work
48:57
SPEAKER_01: between and among colleagues,
49:00
SPEAKER_01: I might start a talk by saying,
49:03
I'd like you to remember a time when you had a difficult
49:07
conversation with a
49:08
SPEAKER_01: colleague at work.
49:11
SPEAKER_01: Pause.
49:12
SPEAKER_01: Now, everybody in the audience is thinking of a personal experience.
49:16
SPEAKER_01: And so with that one sentence,
49:19
SPEAKER_01: just one sentence,
49:20
I've already got every individual to start personalizing my
49:25
talk for them.
49:27
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so you didn't say, hi, my name is John.
49:31
SPEAKER_00: You started with that question.
49:34
SPEAKER_01: I never start with my name.
49:39
SPEAKER_01: I will start with a story or I'll start with something else.
49:42
And then if nobody has introduced me,
49:45
then I will say a few words about myself.
49:48
SPEAKER_01: There are two scenarios.
49:50
SPEAKER_01: One, nobody introduces the speaker.
49:52
And in that case,
49:53
a speaker has to say something about who he is or who she is.
49:57
SPEAKER_01: And just very, very brief.
50:00
My preferred situation is where there's a moderator,
50:04
somebody who's going to introduce me.
50:06
SPEAKER_01: Because then if,
50:07
SPEAKER_01: for your listeners,
50:09
if you know you're gonna be speaking at an event where somebody
50:12
is going to be
50:12
SPEAKER_01: introducing you,
50:14
you should always contact them beforehand and offer to write
50:19
out your introduction.
50:20
SPEAKER_01: They never say no, because it's one less thing for them to do.
50:24
SPEAKER_01: And then you,
50:26
SPEAKER_01: as a speaker,
50:27
you get to decide what is most important from your background
50:31
for this audience on
50:32
SPEAKER_01: this occasion.
50:33
Because the moderator doesn't have time to read out your
50:36
LinkedIn profile,
50:38
SPEAKER_01: but you know what will be most relevant to this audience on this day.
50:42
SPEAKER_01: That's the best.
50:46
SPEAKER_00: John, great advice.
50:47
SPEAKER_00: Great advice.
50:49
SPEAKER_00: So if we talk about leadership a little bit,
50:53
SPEAKER_00: if we go back to leadership,
50:55
SPEAKER_00: how can a leader communicate a vision,
51:01
SPEAKER_00: motivate others instead of just giving instructions?
51:09
SPEAKER_01: I think...
51:11
Obviously the leader has to get personal when talking about
51:14
vision and leader has
51:16
SPEAKER_01: to talk about,
51:17
SPEAKER_01: you know,
51:17
SPEAKER_01: why this vision,
51:19
SPEAKER_01: why this idea is important to them.
51:23
SPEAKER_01: Many times, not always, but in many cases,
51:27
It offers a leader a chance to be a little bit vulnerable with
51:32
the audience.
51:33
SPEAKER_01: And I think vulnerability is a really powerful thing.
51:37
SPEAKER_01: What do I mean when I talk about vulnerability?
51:38
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
51:40
SPEAKER_01: talking about a time when you were less than perfect,
51:45
SPEAKER_01: when you were afraid or when you made a mistake or
51:49
or when you were feeling frustrated about something or
51:51
something wasn't working,
51:53
SPEAKER_01: a time when things weren't going well.
51:55
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, none of us is perfect.
51:58
SPEAKER_01: We've all had these bad times.
52:00
Of course,
52:01
you don't want to spend the whole talk talking about this,
52:03
but to inject.
52:05
SPEAKER_01: A story like that, it's a great way to connect with the audience.
52:11
SPEAKER_01: It really shows that a person is really willing to take a chance.
52:16
SPEAKER_01: And I think being a bit vulnerable is a sign of courage.
52:19
SPEAKER_01: I think that is a real way to tap into emotion with the audience,
52:25
SPEAKER_01: to connect with them at the human level.
52:28
SPEAKER_01: You know,
52:28
SPEAKER_01: you think of big motivational speakers like,
52:32
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
52:32
SPEAKER_01: Tony Robbins or people like of that stature.
52:36
SPEAKER_01: When they're on stage,
52:38
SPEAKER_01: they don't come on saying,
52:39
SPEAKER_01: hey,
52:39
SPEAKER_01: I've got three houses and two airplanes and I've done this,
52:43
SPEAKER_01: this and this and this.
52:44
SPEAKER_01: I mean, how did they start?
52:48
SPEAKER_01: 15 years ago, I was living in a single room apartment.
52:53
SPEAKER_01: And at the end of every month,
52:54
SPEAKER_01: I had to decide whether I was going to eat supper or pay the rent.
52:58
SPEAKER_01: They tell a story of struggle.
53:01
SPEAKER_01: And that is a way to connect.
53:03
And so when leaders are trying to inspire people with a vision,
53:06
I think a personal story helps.
53:09
SPEAKER_01: I think also tapping into people's better angels,
53:13
SPEAKER_01: if I could phrase it this way,
53:14
to kind of get them excited about being part of something that
53:18
is something
53:19
SPEAKER_01: positive that is bigger than themselves.
53:23
SPEAKER_01: And I think this is really important for people these days.
53:27
SPEAKER_01: Dan Pink,
53:28
SPEAKER_01: an author whom I really admire,
53:30
SPEAKER_01: he wrote a book years ago called Drive,
53:34
SPEAKER_01: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates People.
53:36
And for the things that he found that really motivate people,
53:40
there are three things –
53:42
Autonomy,
53:43
people want to have some kind of control over what they're
53:46
doing.
53:46
SPEAKER_01: Mastery, they want to get good at whatever it is they're doing.
53:49
SPEAKER_01: And then the third one, which for me is the big one, purpose.
53:53
SPEAKER_01: The idea that what I am doing is bigger than just me.
53:59
SPEAKER_01: It has meaning.
54:00
SPEAKER_01: It is something that will outlast me, that will have an impact on others.
54:05
SPEAKER_01: And I think leaders who are conveying a vision, they can tap into this.
54:10
SPEAKER_01: Have you seen a leader do this in real life?
54:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've had several clients.
54:17
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to single anybody out,
54:18
but I've had several clients where they've gotten up on stage
54:21
and they've told a
54:23
personal story and they've spoken about their vision for the
54:27
company and for the
54:29
SPEAKER_01: employees at the company.
54:30
SPEAKER_01: And I've done also corporate trainings where I've asked people,
54:34
SPEAKER_01: do you have examples in your office of people who've done that?
54:37
And people have told me,
54:37
oh gosh,
54:38
I remember so-and-so gave this speech and it was so inspiring.
54:41
SPEAKER_01: And other people say, yeah, that was really powerful.
54:43
SPEAKER_01: And I said, well, what was powerful about it?
54:46
SPEAKER_01: Well, he told a story, a really powerful story about him.
54:49
SPEAKER_01: And this ties back to what we were saying,
54:50
SPEAKER_01: the study by Stanford and The Economist,
54:52
SPEAKER_01: that people remember the stories.
54:55
SPEAKER_01: And when it comes to vision,
54:58
SPEAKER_01: Most visionaries,
55:00
SPEAKER_01: they have an objective in mind that is worthy,
55:04
SPEAKER_01: but it's not necessarily easy to achieve.
55:07
SPEAKER_01: Most things that are worthwhile aren't easy.
55:09
SPEAKER_01: And in the hard times,
55:11
when it's 8 o'clock at night and people are still in the office
55:15
and there's no
55:16
SPEAKER_01: glamour,
55:17
SPEAKER_01: this is where the inspiration,
55:20
SPEAKER_01: the vision from the boss,
55:22
SPEAKER_01: remembering that helps people to push through the difficult times.
55:25
so we've been talking about business and leadership now if we
55:31
go to everyday life
55:34
how can we become more influential better communicators at our
55:41
daily lives i think
55:48
SPEAKER_01: Listening, perhaps paradoxically, is a really important thing.
55:53
SPEAKER_01: I think listening to people,
55:55
SPEAKER_01: friends,
55:56
SPEAKER_01: family,
55:57
SPEAKER_01: colleagues,
55:58
SPEAKER_01: when people are speaking,
56:00
SPEAKER_01: what I've found throughout my career,
56:02
SPEAKER_01: both as a lawyer and as a public speaker,
56:05
SPEAKER_01: is that
56:08
one of the most fundamental things that is really important for
56:11
people is to feel
56:13
SPEAKER_01: that they've been listened to.
56:16
SPEAKER_01: Even when you disagree, even when
56:22
SPEAKER_01: You have to decide between two options,
56:25
SPEAKER_01: A and B,
56:26
SPEAKER_01: and they were hoping for B,
56:27
SPEAKER_01: but you chose A.
56:29
If they feel that at the very least you really gave full
56:34
consideration to their
56:36
SPEAKER_01: reasons for option B,
56:38
SPEAKER_01: they might not be happy,
56:39
SPEAKER_01: but they're going to be less unhappy.
56:42
One of the things I do in addition to public speaking is
56:44
improv,
56:45
improvisational theater.
56:47
SPEAKER_01: And we do performances.
56:49
In fact,
56:49
we have a performance art,
56:50
my group,
56:51
the Renegade Saints in Geneva next week.
56:54
SPEAKER_01: But we also do corporate workshops.
56:56
SPEAKER_01: And in these workshops, we do games and exercises.
56:59
And a lot of them are based on really focusing on what your
57:03
partner's doing,
57:04
really listening.
57:06
SPEAKER_01: Because I think, and I've been guilty of this as well.
57:11
SPEAKER_01: And perhaps people will identify with this.
57:14
SPEAKER_01: Let's say you're in a meeting and somebody's talking.
57:17
And it could be a work-related meeting or some other meeting of
57:20
a club or even,
57:21
SPEAKER_01: you know,
57:21
SPEAKER_01: sitting around,
57:22
SPEAKER_01: family talking.
57:23
SPEAKER_01: And you listen to what somebody's saying.
57:25
SPEAKER_01: And at some point,
57:28
SPEAKER_01: they're still talking,
57:29
but you've stopped listening because now you're thinking about
57:31
what you want to
57:32
SPEAKER_01: say.
57:33
SPEAKER_01: And when you think about it, that's not polite.
57:36
SPEAKER_01: You should listen to people right until the end.
57:38
I want people to listen to me until the end,
57:40
so I should afford them the same courtesy.
57:44
And so I tell people when you're communicating with somebody
57:47
and they're speaking,
57:48
SPEAKER_01: don't listen to respond,
57:50
SPEAKER_01: listen to understand.
57:52
SPEAKER_01: Because many times,
57:54
SPEAKER_01: once you've understood,
57:56
you're going to be in a better position to give a better
57:59
response or answer.
58:02
SPEAKER_01: And that can lead to more persuasion, more influence.
58:07
SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
58:09
SPEAKER_00: So active listening.
58:11
SPEAKER_01: Active listening.
58:12
SPEAKER_01: It's very important.
58:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
58:15
So if I would like to persuade somebody,
58:18
I have to make them feel seen,
58:23
heard,
58:23
valued.
58:26
SPEAKER_00: And I do that by actively listening.
58:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, go ahead.
58:31
SPEAKER_01: No, actively listening.
58:32
SPEAKER_01: And then sometimes instead of coming back with your own thoughts,
58:38
SPEAKER_01: you can actually give them another opportunity.
58:41
SPEAKER_01: You can ask them a question.
58:42
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's interesting.
58:44
SPEAKER_01: Can you tell me more about that?
58:46
SPEAKER_01: Or why did this make you feel this way?
58:48
many you know when we take the time to really think about and
58:53
care about what
58:54
somebody else is saying it really makes an impact it really
58:57
makes an impact and you
58:59
know these days it's no secret you know political discourse
59:03
around the world is
59:04
very bad it's very bad people are talking at each other or
59:09
above or below each
59:10
other they're in their own silos and everybody sticks to their
59:13
own story and
59:15
SPEAKER_01: There's not a lot of listening going on.
59:20
And I think if people just listen more and try to understand
59:24
what the other person
59:25
SPEAKER_01: was saying,
59:26
SPEAKER_01: even then at the end,
59:26
SPEAKER_01: even if they don't agree with them,
59:29
SPEAKER_01: at least something positive has come out of the exchange.
59:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it starts by listening.
59:35
SPEAKER_00: That's why we have two ears and one mouth.
59:39
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
59:40
SPEAKER_00: I need this reminder, John.
59:41
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
59:45
SPEAKER_00: Do you think the art of persuasion and influence,
59:52
SPEAKER_00: can it be learned or are you just born a natural,
59:57
SPEAKER_00: talented speaker,
1:00:00
SPEAKER_00: persuader?
1:00:01
SPEAKER_01: Well, look, there are 8 billion people on this planet.
1:00:05
SPEAKER_01: So are there some who are born naturally gifted?
1:00:08
SPEAKER_01: Sure, there's probably a couple.
1:00:10
SPEAKER_01: I hate them too.
1:00:13
SPEAKER_01: But honestly,
1:00:14
SPEAKER_01: I think for the 99.99% of the people,
1:00:19
SPEAKER_01: myself included,
1:00:20
SPEAKER_01: it's something that can be learned.
1:00:22
SPEAKER_01: It's a skill.
1:00:23
SPEAKER_01: It's like any other skill.
1:00:26
SPEAKER_01: On my...
1:00:28
SPEAKER_01: On my website,
1:00:29
SPEAKER_01: mannerofspeaking.org,
1:00:31
SPEAKER_01: right at the top,
1:00:32
SPEAKER_01: there's a quote from the poet Ralph Waldo Emerson.
1:00:36
SPEAKER_01: And he said, all the great speakers were bad speakers at first.
1:00:41
SPEAKER_01: And for me,
1:00:41
SPEAKER_01: that captures a very important idea,
1:00:44
SPEAKER_01: which is you don't have to be good when you start,
1:00:49
SPEAKER_01: but you have to start if you want to be good.
1:00:52
SPEAKER_01: And so it is a skill that you can work at.
1:00:55
SPEAKER_01: It is a skill you can get better at.
1:00:57
And what I would encourage people that if they do a training or
1:01:01
they read a book or
1:01:02
SPEAKER_01: they see a speaker whom they admire and they start taking notes,
1:01:05
SPEAKER_01: oh,
1:01:05
SPEAKER_01: I want to try this and this and this and all of these things,
1:01:08
SPEAKER_01: that's fantastic.
1:01:09
SPEAKER_01: Note it all down, but start with one thing.
1:01:14
SPEAKER_01: With one thing,
1:01:15
SPEAKER_01: because if you try and change too much at once,
1:01:18
SPEAKER_01: it's usually a mess and it can become frustrating.
1:01:21
SPEAKER_01: But if you say,
1:01:22
SPEAKER_01: for example,
1:01:23
we've talked about storytelling and you've never told a story
1:01:26
in a business
1:01:26
SPEAKER_01: presentation,
1:01:27
SPEAKER_01: your next business presentation,
1:01:29
SPEAKER_01: tell a 45 second story,
1:01:32
SPEAKER_01: a one minute story related to the point.
1:01:35
SPEAKER_01: And just that change.
1:01:37
SPEAKER_01: See how that feels.
1:01:39
SPEAKER_01: Do it again the next time.
1:01:40
SPEAKER_01: Get comfortable with that.
1:01:41
SPEAKER_01: And when you're comfortable, then try adding something else.
1:01:45
SPEAKER_01: For people in their careers,
1:01:47
SPEAKER_01: especially those starting out,
1:01:49
SPEAKER_01: public speaking,
1:01:50
SPEAKER_01: communicating is something you are going to be doing for decades.
1:01:53
SPEAKER_01: We're playing the long game here.
1:01:56
SPEAKER_01: This isn't a sprint.
1:01:57
SPEAKER_01: So you don't have to do everything at once.
1:01:59
SPEAKER_01: You can step by step get better.
1:02:01
SPEAKER_00: Great advice.
1:02:03
SPEAKER_00: So my podcast is called Speaking of Meaning.
1:02:08
SPEAKER_00: When you hear speaking of meaning, what comes to mind?
1:02:15
SPEAKER_01: This podcast, of course.
1:02:17
SPEAKER_01: But you know, now that I think about it,
1:02:19
SPEAKER_01: In English,
1:02:20
SPEAKER_01: the phrase,
1:02:21
SPEAKER_01: speaking of whatever,
1:02:24
this usually comes up in a conversation where two people were
1:02:28
talking about topic A
1:02:30
SPEAKER_01: and something else is mentioned.
1:02:32
SPEAKER_01: I go, oh, speaking of that.
1:02:34
SPEAKER_01: And then we go on to this other topic.
1:02:35
SPEAKER_01: And I like this phrase, speaking of meaning.
1:02:38
SPEAKER_01: It's not a common one.
1:02:41
SPEAKER_01: which makes it stand out, it's unique.
1:02:44
SPEAKER_01: But the speaking of meaning,
1:02:45
SPEAKER_01: when I hear it,
1:02:46
SPEAKER_01: it reminds me of the importance of having something meaningful to say.
1:02:52
SPEAKER_01: You know, we're talking about this and this and this.
1:02:53
SPEAKER_01: Speaking of meaning, oh yeah, I should have something meaningful to say.
1:02:57
SPEAKER_01: I should have something relevant to say whenever I'm communicating.
1:03:01
SPEAKER_01: So that's what comes to mind.
1:03:03
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, John.
1:03:04
SPEAKER_00: It took me some time to actually come up with a name for this podcast.
1:03:09
SPEAKER_00: When I was brainstorming, it took me a couple of weeks.
1:03:11
I wanted it to be about communication and also how we can
1:03:16
create some better
1:03:17
SPEAKER_00: communication,
1:03:18
SPEAKER_00: greater impact.
1:03:20
SPEAKER_00: That's great.
1:03:21
SPEAKER_00: And just like you've been mentioning today,
1:03:23
SPEAKER_00: communication is vital for not only our career,
1:03:26
SPEAKER_00: but also our personal relationships.
1:03:29
SPEAKER_00: So communication in the home, add work.
1:03:33
SPEAKER_00: in life.
1:03:35
SPEAKER_00: And I think you are a perfect example of this.
1:03:41
SPEAKER_00: You're a wonderful communicator.
1:03:43
And you've also shared with us how we can become better
1:03:47
communicators and speakers.
1:03:49
SPEAKER_00: And in that way, we can become more influential and persuasive.
1:03:54
SPEAKER_00: Now, of course, you've talked about good intentions.
1:03:57
SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure that people listening have good intentions,
1:04:00
and the intention is to become better speakers and
1:04:04
communicators so that we can get
1:04:06
SPEAKER_00: our ideas across.
1:04:09
SPEAKER_00: And so I think thinking about speaking of meaning,
1:04:13
SPEAKER_00: we can talk and speak and communicate in a clear,
1:04:17
SPEAKER_00: concise,
1:04:18
SPEAKER_00: compelling,
1:04:20
SPEAKER_00: meaningful way with empathy.
1:04:24
SPEAKER_00: When I thought about a guest to this show,
1:04:27
your name came up because I've seen you up on the stage and
1:04:32
I've also seen you and
1:04:33
SPEAKER_00: met you in person and you're also a good friend.
1:04:36
SPEAKER_00: And I know how you can touch lives with the way you communicate.
1:04:43
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's very kind of you to say, I really appreciate it.
1:04:46
SPEAKER_01: And I want to say kudos to you for starting this podcast.
1:04:48
I know that there's a lot involved in terms of the logistics
1:04:52
and the preparation.
1:04:53
It's a lot of work,
1:04:54
but I think it's really important work that you're doing.
1:04:57
SPEAKER_01: I think if you can play a role and you are playing a role.
1:05:01
helping your listeners think about their communication style
1:05:04
about how they can
1:05:05
become more effective better communicators and who in turn have
1:05:09
a positive impact
1:05:10
on others it's it's the ripple effect I grew up in a small town
1:05:18
called Port Coburn
1:05:19
in southern Ontario in Canada and Port Coburn sits on Lake Erie
1:05:23
one of the five
1:05:23
SPEAKER_01: great lakes in the middle of North America
1:05:26
And we didn't live on the lake,
1:05:28
but we lived close enough that I could walk to it.
1:05:30
SPEAKER_01: And in the summertime,
1:05:31
what I would love to do when I was a little boy would go down
1:05:33
early in the morning
1:05:35
SPEAKER_01: when there was nobody there.
1:05:37
SPEAKER_01: Then I would have this huge beach all to myself.
1:05:40
SPEAKER_01: And there were days when there was no wind.
1:05:42
SPEAKER_01: The air was clear.
1:05:44
SPEAKER_01: The water was like glass.
1:05:46
And I could look across the lake and I could see the shoreline
1:05:48
of upstate New York
1:05:50
SPEAKER_01: in the United States.
1:05:51
SPEAKER_01: And for me at the time,
1:05:52
that was the most exotic place in the world because it was a
1:05:54
foreign country.
1:05:56
And what I would love to do is pick the biggest rock I could
1:05:59
and I would throw it
1:06:00
SPEAKER_01: into the lake and it would land with this plop.
1:06:02
SPEAKER_01: And then I would watch the ripples spread out.
1:06:05
And I would imagine that one of those ripples made it all the
1:06:08
way over to touch the
1:06:09
SPEAKER_01: shores of the U.S.
1:06:11
And I often think of those days now doing what I'm doing and
1:06:15
you doing what you're
1:06:16
SPEAKER_01: doing is because...
1:06:17
the the rock that's the message where it lands is the audience
1:06:22
and yet but it's the
1:06:23
ripples that make the difference because your audience that
1:06:26
you're impacting people
1:06:27
will hear this and they will go off and do something which
1:06:29
impacts others which and
1:06:30
they will impact others and so on and so on and so i think it's
1:06:34
it's a great
1:06:35
metaphor for your podcast because that's what you're doing you
1:06:38
are cat throwing
1:06:39
stones and making ripples and learning along the way too we're
1:06:44
always learning
1:06:45
SPEAKER_01: everyone
1:06:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:06:48
Before we wrap up,
1:06:49
I always include some practical advice,
1:06:52
some framework for our listeners.
1:06:54
What small habit or daily practice would you give to a listener
1:07:01
right now if they
1:07:02
SPEAKER_00: want to improve their communication skills?
1:07:06
SPEAKER_01: There are lots of things that people can do.
1:07:08
SPEAKER_01: The most powerful are the ones where you are actually speaking.
1:07:12
SPEAKER_01: So some quick thoughts.
1:07:14
SPEAKER_01: You can turn on the camera on your computer.
1:07:18
Speak for three minutes because we have to do a lot of online
1:07:21
speaking like you and
1:07:22
SPEAKER_01: I are doing right now.
1:07:23
SPEAKER_01: Then watch yourself.
1:07:25
SPEAKER_01: It's painful, but you learn.
1:07:27
SPEAKER_01: I think second tip.
1:07:29
SPEAKER_01: Be proactive with feedback.
1:07:31
SPEAKER_01: If you're working in an office and you're giving presentations,
1:07:34
SPEAKER_01: many times people give a presentation,
1:07:36
SPEAKER_01: they ask for feedback after and people say,
1:07:38
SPEAKER_01: oh,
1:07:38
SPEAKER_01: it was great,
1:07:39
SPEAKER_01: which doesn't help me at all.
1:07:42
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't tell me anything.
1:07:44
Many times people are afraid or hesitant to give feedback
1:07:48
because they don't want
1:07:48
SPEAKER_01: to hurt people's feelings.
1:07:50
SPEAKER_01: But if you're proactive,
1:07:51
if I know you're going to be in the audience when I'm speaking
1:07:54
and I come up to you
1:07:55
SPEAKER_01: and I say,
1:07:55
SPEAKER_01: Ibrahim,
1:07:55
SPEAKER_01: I know you're going to be there on Thursday's presentation.
1:07:59
I'm really trying to work on pausing more and also making
1:08:04
better eye contact with the audience.
1:08:06
I'd really appreciate it afterwards if you would give me
1:08:09
feedback on those two things.
1:08:12
You're going to be much more comfortable telling me what you
1:08:15
really think because
1:08:16
SPEAKER_01: I've asked you to do this.
1:08:17
SPEAKER_01: I've given you the permission.
1:08:19
I think people can join a club like Toastmasters where they can
1:08:24
get up on their
1:08:24
SPEAKER_01: feet to speak and practice and just use it as a laboratory.
1:08:29
SPEAKER_01: I think watching talks,
1:08:32
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:08:32
SPEAKER_01: watch a TED talk or any kind of talk on YouTube,
1:08:35
SPEAKER_01: watch a speaker,
1:08:37
but make some notes about what are some things you liked that
1:08:41
they're doing?
1:08:42
And what are a couple of things where you thought,
1:08:45
I didn't like this so much?
1:08:46
SPEAKER_01: Because when we start listening to others,
1:08:49
SPEAKER_01: watching other speeches with this analytical perspective,
1:08:52
SPEAKER_01: it gets us to reflect on our own speaking as well.
1:08:55
SPEAKER_01: So there's some quick ideas.
1:08:57
SPEAKER_00: So what I hear you say is speak more,
1:09:00
SPEAKER_00: be open to honest feedback and join,
1:09:05
SPEAKER_00: for instance,
1:09:06
SPEAKER_00: a club where you get to not only speak online in front of a camera,
1:09:11
but also to a live audience and learn more about public
1:09:15
speaking by watching,
1:09:16
SPEAKER_00: for instance,
1:09:16
SPEAKER_00: a TED talk.
1:09:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, watch TED talk.
1:09:19
SPEAKER_01: There are books, there are blogs, there's all kinds of things.
1:09:22
SPEAKER_00: So I know you have a blog, mannerofspeaking.org.
1:09:26
SPEAKER_00: If people want to contact you, where can they find you?
1:09:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm very active on LinkedIn.
1:09:33
SPEAKER_01: I also have a YouTube channel, John Zimmer, manner of speaking.
1:09:36
SPEAKER_01: They can find me there.
1:09:38
I have an Instagram account as well,
1:09:41
though I'm not that active on Instagram.
1:09:43
SPEAKER_01: I have it, but I only use it on my laptop.
1:09:45
SPEAKER_01: I don't have it on my phone.
1:09:47
SPEAKER_01: I would say the best places would be the website,
1:09:50
SPEAKER_01: mannerofspeaking.org or LinkedIn or my YouTube channel.
1:09:54
SPEAKER_01: Those would be the top three.
1:09:56
SPEAKER_01: Tell us about your blog, John.
1:09:58
SPEAKER_01: Oh, the blog.
1:09:59
SPEAKER_01: I started this blog in 2014.
1:10:03
SPEAKER_01: So that's 11 years ago.
1:10:06
SPEAKER_01: And I thought, I have no idea how long I'm going to keep doing this.
1:10:09
And I was reading like,
1:10:10
you know,
1:10:11
was it 80% of blogs or more close after a month?
1:10:15
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, 14 years later, it's still going strong.
1:10:18
SPEAKER_01: It's got almost a thousand posts.
1:10:21
SPEAKER_01: It's had a lot of visitors, like you mentioned.
1:10:25
SPEAKER_01: And...
1:10:27
SPEAKER_01: I really enjoy sharing things online with people.
1:10:31
I get lots of nice comments back from people saying this was
1:10:34
really helpful for
1:10:35
SPEAKER_01: this or that presentation.
1:10:38
SPEAKER_01: And that makes me feel good.
1:10:39
It makes me feel like this idea of purpose,
1:10:41
like I'm doing something that is bigger than me.
1:10:44
SPEAKER_01: And people say, isn't it a lot of work?
1:10:47
SPEAKER_01: It is a lot of work, but it doesn't feel like work.
1:10:50
SPEAKER_01: I enjoy it.
1:10:51
SPEAKER_01: And so it's out there.
1:10:54
I try and post one thing a week so you can subscribe to get the
1:10:59
post sent to your mailbox.
1:11:01
SPEAKER_01: It's not spammy at all.
1:11:03
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it's something I enjoy.
1:11:05
SPEAKER_01: I hope to be able to do it for another 10 years.
1:11:08
SPEAKER_00: Wonderful.
1:11:08
SPEAKER_00: I think you've had over five million readers so far.
1:11:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, visitors.
1:11:13
SPEAKER_01: I think so.
1:11:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, something like that.
1:11:15
SPEAKER_00: Great, John.
1:11:17
SPEAKER_00: Well, John, this has been wonderful talking to you.
1:11:20
SPEAKER_00: Very valuable.
1:11:21
SPEAKER_00: You are a wonderful person, human being, a wonderful communicator.
1:11:27
and you have a powerful way of communicating and it has been an
1:11:34
honor and I've
1:11:36
SPEAKER_00: enjoyed every second of this.
1:11:38
SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much.
1:11:39
I am confident our listeners have learned a lot today and I
1:11:44
look forward to seeing
1:11:45
SPEAKER_00: you in person again.
1:11:46
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
1:11:47
SPEAKER_01: Ibrahim, it was a real pleasure.
1:11:49
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me on the podcast.
1:11:50
SPEAKER_01: I wish you the best of success with it.
1:11:52
SPEAKER_01: And yes, I hope that our paths cross in person very, very soon.
1:11:58
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to Speaking of Meaning.
1:12:01
SPEAKER_00: If today's episode helped you see communication in a new way,
1:12:05
SPEAKER_00: share it with someone you care about,
1:12:06
SPEAKER_00: a friend,
1:12:07
SPEAKER_00: a partner or a colleague who wants to grow.
1:12:10
SPEAKER_00: And don't forget to follow the podcast so you never miss an episode.
1:12:14
SPEAKER_00: I'm Ibrahim.
1:12:16
SPEAKER_00: Until next time, better communication, greater impact.