Latest / No Mess, No Magic / How to Reclaim the Joy of Writing with Zanni Louise

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How to Reclaim the Joy of Writing with Zanni Louise · No Mess, No Magic

• Monica Hay: Hello and welcome to the No Mess, No Magic podcast with Monica Hay, a podcast for writers. I am so thrilled to have an in-person guest with me today, Zanny Louise Arnett. Welcome, Zanny. Thank you, Monica. I'm so excited to be in your cozy little office. It's so lovely. I I do love my cozy little office. It's beautiful. I'm I'm such a cancer. I'm like, I need my my cozy space. We connect on cancer and we are both cancers. And we both also hold massive grudges, right? Don't tell them that. Yes. Yes. Basically. Don't tell them that. yeah, don't piss us off. We're both writers and we hold grudges. So we will put you in our work. You don't want to know what's on with that. So Zanny is a dear friend of mine. We met how long has it been? A couple of years. no, like even just over a year. Just over a year. Feels like a lifetime. I know. In a good way. In a good way. Like I have known you for that long. we met at the writer's night at American Book Center. They host writers' nights every quarter, I think. And we both We're both like we're both extroverts. We're the only extroverts in the room. We're like the only extroverts in most rooms with writers, I feel like. Yeah. I would say I'm mostly an extrovert. I do have my moments if I've done when we did that that presentation at the book nook afterward, I was like, I need to s go to bed. Like I I get tired after that kind of stuff, like after presenting. I was like that after the book fair we did, Let's Get Bookish a couple of weeks ago. I was so tired I could just lie down on the paper. Literally. I was literally, I was like, if somebody put a bed on the floor right here, I would just crash. So maybe we're not extroverts. Maybe we're like retiring extroverts. Old extroverts. man, it was that was a really lovely event. It was a lot though, because it was like 500-something people. 600 people plus all the tables, but it was all the impressions. And for me, because I'm not, I don't have to sell my books, which is very nice because I'm traditionally published. And so having to sell my books and put myself out there in a retail capacity was a whole other thing. Interesting. And I have such admiration for those around me who are doing it so effectively. And I was like, I feel completely pathetic at this. That is so interesting, really. You've never you feel like you've never had to sell your book at an event or anything like that. I mean, you s you do, I guess, but like it's not like my what I'm setting out to do to sell a book. Yeah. I mean, I I guess that's a result of everything I do. Hopefully people will buy my books, of course. But yeah, I like right now I'm selling a retreat. And so that's an ex example of, you know, having to do something for retail, but it does take a certain amount of energy, like it quite a large amount of energy. Uh-huh. Yeah. I'm I'm in that that boat right now. So yeah, I get it. So today we're talking about I kind of thought we could talk about like how to write Like a kid again, like how to play again. I love that. because you, so Zanny has I'll I'll let you introduce yourself first. You wanna let people know who you are and where you they can find you, like kind of what you're how many books you've written. Don't just don't be shy. So I'm an Australian author, as you can probably tell from my accent. and I've been publishing, traditionally publishing now for 11 years last month. so in that time I've actually published over 50 books. And yeah, it's a lot. Like this year at eleven, which is crazy. We're not even at like it's it's only October. I mean there's already been well no, there's only one more to come. And to be honest, it is a kind of a re release. Like it's a special edition and it has one extra it's a series of stories and it's got one extra story. So I feel like it's a new book in that sense. yeah, but it's it is my career, it's my full time job, which is very, very amazing to get to say. I generally write for kids and recently teens in the last couple of years. Yes. Which I love writing for. It's my little happy place. And it's given me the confidence now to write my first adult novel. So we will get to that. But that's sort of my creative play. that's kind of where I'm just having fun. yeah, so I I feel like I've my writing has grown up with my ages of my kids. Because I did start writing when my kids were babies. And there's It's not a coincidence. It's because I'm around those books. Those are the books I'm intensely interested in. So when my daughter started reading chapter books, I was like, I want to write these because this is where she's at. I want to write one for her. And likewise when she was a bit older. So yeah, it's I'm definitely writing to my kids' ages, but also the sort of things I'm reading that makes sense as well, right? Yeah, I love that. Yeah. And you also wrote that short story that's super cute. Yeah. So that's for a charity project. and it was a nice little ball to get me rolling again because I've been on tour in Australia for a month in yeah, just this last month and running a retreat in Australia. And it's a whole different energy. I didn't even try to write. Like my goal was to finish my adult novel draft before I left because I just didn't want to think about writing, look at writing anything. because it's yeah, it's my extrovert itself. So it's myself which is has to be organized, has to get to appointments on time, has to deliver and inspire kids and not has to, loves to, but it's a different side of what I do. So but and I think maybe also because I'm coming back to the other side of the world, I've just had to recalibrate and that's taken a few weeks. I do have a few loose deadlines and a few projects in the wings, but I haven't really got back into that writing flow yet. So that short story I wrote last week was a nice little thing to get me going yet and get me excited and get, you know, inspired. Yeah. And I love it's like what a 1500 word story and you wrote it in a morning. I'm a fast writer. I will also get to that because that links into a lot of your themes that we're going to talk about today. Yeah. I'm going to talk about To but yeah, another part of what I do. So the most thing I do is write. And luckily I am living off royalties and things like that, which is amazing. But I'm also I run retreats, so that's the thing that's evolved really organically and really beautifully. So this year I'm running two, I ran one in Italy, one in Australia in the Blue Mountains, I've got one coming up in France. So Yeah, that's just this lovely side thing I do. You ran two of them this year? Two, yeah. One in look it is and it isn't. It's a lot. I don't know, like it it's a again, a different part of my energy, part of what I do. Right. they do fall together quite naturally. And when I'm there, I'm just completely present, completely sort of yeah. It's it it's it's such a joy. I can't explain it. Like it's such, such a joy, such a special experience. It doesn't Feel like work. Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah, I'm lucky. And when is your the next one? The French one is coming up in May. So sixteenth of May. So it's a whole week in a French castle. my gosh. And it's with a this time it's quite special 'cause it's with an illustrator. So her name is Dorian Browers. She's a Dutch lady, but she lives in the UK. She's an award winning picture book illustrator. and we just happened to meet in Bologna at Bologna Book Fair. We were in the Sophie Blackall session and she turned around like, are you, Zanny I follow you on Instagram because your journey is kind of similar to mine. And we'd started talking about retreats because she's been running retreats in Zambia, in Rome. And as we talked, I could just feel the electricity bouncing off my skin. And I wanted to ask her, would you like to do this together? And At the same time she wanted to ask me. So we just kind of came out and said it right at the same time. So yeah, it's just been a lovely experience. So that's happening in my whole week in France. That's I love it. Doing beautiful stuff, indulging your creativity. I love that. Mm-hmm. My gosh. I my I think my favorite thing about you is you work with with both kids and adults. And This starts with all my questions about like how we can play again. And I'm slightly selfishly asking this because I find it hard to find play sometimes. I I think I have to turn off a part of my brain in order to find play. And what is the difference that you notice between the way kids approach creativity versus the way adults approach creativity? I think the main thing is that Kids just get there faster. Like they have they don't have the barriers, they don't have the limitations, they don't have the self-talk, or if they do, I can talk them out of it very quickly. so I guess mostly I've been working with primary school kids, elementary school kids over the years. so pr I would say I've been doing this work almost as long as I've been publishing. So almost ten years. And I would go into schools and often we'd have a group of say thirty kids. So they've all been they've either been chosen to come or they're there a bit electively. So there is a certain, you know, agreement that you're entering into a writing space. So there are already going to be kids who are a bit primed to want to write. Although it'll get a lot of reluctant writers as well. And I'll always start with Just a little bit engaging them with what they think story is. And I'm always trying to get to, you know, what does it mean to you? Cause that's what's important. And I've that's been my whole career as well. Like I write a lot of different things, but it's partly because I'm interested in a lot of different things. And I think it's important to follow your personal interests and tastes and preferences. So the I would say the core of what I'm doing is What would you say? Validating joy and confidence. That's really where I start and it's where I go to. It's my goal. And I've stuck with that all these years. And I have to say, I've never in the thousands of kids I've worked with, I've never met a kid who hasn't come up with a story. Mm-hmm and has left the workshop kind of beaming. Sometimes it's the first time they've ever written anything and the first time they've felt validated that they are also a storyteller. I think for kids, there is it's almost instinctual. It's it's so much I remember when I was a kid, it was so instinctual for me. I could just like write like like it was just there. Yeah. I think when you ask like what's the big difference, it's also that kids will just go further. Like their creativity is so broad and so limitless and the wackiest stuff. But it's often you're talking to them. And cause I'll often do a a bit where it's a verbal aspects so I want to hear what this story is about not just read it and it is so wacky sometimes but often it's quite like there's a lot of sense here and and it's so often I'll be saying to them I can see this as a Netflix show. This is awesome. Honestly you have just come up with a sensational idea. I love that. And they just yeah and that is common. That's more common than not. Well I think it's also funny because we as When I think about what advice a lot of teachers give for adults, sometimes they'll say, like, come up with the wackiest idea possible and it won't go into the manuscript, but you just write this like that's a bit of pressure. Yeah, but it's true. You want to be kind of it's okay to be weird. It's okay to be weird. Yeah. I think I think it's Jessica Brody. One of the recommendations she has for when you're in writer's block is to just like write ridiculous scenes. Like just write like something wh like scary or something with love, like write scenes that ha make no sense for the the characters of the plot, but you're just like you're just messing around. Yeah. And I feel like what you're kind of saying is that kids can do that very naturally. Very naturally. Yeah. But yeah, I guess their ideas are really original. Yeah. So I it's really hard to not want to steal their ideas 'cause they're fantastic. They're so original. It's just like I wish I could come up with these things and I I don't know maybe I could I don't know if I could hypnotize myself to get to that point. but I well enjoy working with them for sure. Did you ever have your kids come up with ideas that you would take for your for your own work? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I've got my daughter, you know, she's basically coming up with an idea a minute. And she but she does the whole planning. She does the She invests hours planning characters, settings, worlds, you know, intrinsically. Like it's so, so detailed. And after a week, she's done with it. Like she's she's moved on. And I I just look at her debris of stories. Can you let me know when you are bored enough and feel like you will never write something like this? Cause I would like to I'd like to take it. I would like to take it. She's like, Yeah, I'll let you know. Does she ever give it to you? yeah, she would she there's one she's said. actively she has donated to me. There's two, she said, you can write those ones because she's moved so far on to other things. That is so funny. Yeah. I'm pretty yeah, look, there is it's great being able to do collaborative things with my daughters and Elke who's 16, she's currently reading my work in progress. And she's what she is considering doing psychology. And you know, she's a she's not a big reader and she's not a big writer, although she's come up with some great stories over the years. but she is such an amazing reader of my work. And I think it's because she's so interested in people. Yeah. So what the conversation we had yesterday for about an hour was just about the characters and the way we talked about it just felt so I was so inspired, you know, just like by my story, but by our conversation. Yeah. Yeah, this is really interesting. It's so special. It's very special. Most people I feel like don't have that with anybody in their life. Like just the person is go collaborate with your story with. It's so cool. And you know, she's very like sweet about the feedback as well. She's I did have some points, you know, and she'll she'll tell them to me in quite a sweet way. she's like, I know you're not gonna change this, but but we have great, great conversations about it. So yeah, it's it's really lovely. I love that. I'm curious when you work with adults and you're noticing that somebody's struggling to get more into the play mode, how do you What are some of the ways that you help them get back into that mode? Mm. Because for kids it's instinctual. It seems like it's much faster. But for adults, I think with how do we get there? How do we get there? Well, often I'll start my writing workshops with I have a little folder of images I've collected over the years and also just strips of writing little prompts and they're wacky little things, random things. and I just pass it around and say Pick one out. Don't look what it is. Just pick it out. And we'll just do a two-minute warm-up, you know, or five minutes maybe. And that just sort of, yeah, warms you up. Like it just gets you over that fear of the blank page, I guess. Cause a lot for a lot of people, and you talk about this in your work as well, that I th there's you it's easy to feel intimidated because you've got so many stories around your own creative journey and so many blockages. Cause what Well, what are you fearful of? Well, maybe a whole lot of things. Yeah. So sometimes you just have to trick yourself into it. Yeah. I do the same to myself. Yeah. Yeah, it kind of reminds me of Matthew's stretch and fold. I love that. Yeah. one of our colleagues here in Amsterdam has a I think a workshop that he runs pretty consistently called Stretch and Fold. And I think the Stretch and Tone. Stretch and tone. I didn't realize Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was a ballet dancer. So it's a bit like ballerina stuff to do Ballet dancers have to do every day to stretch and tone, stretch and tone. It's not practicing, it's it's just constantly conditioning the muscles. Yes. So he's he's doing equivalent writing courses. Yes. Well, it's it's the same thing as like, you know, musicians are are having to like actually show up and do music, whether it's I'm actually practicing with my band or I'm just doing it on by myself on my own to like actually stretch and Stretch and tone basically. Yeah, yeah. And it's the same thing when you go to the gym, you're supposed to stretch first, though not all of us do. I'm probably guilty of this. And most of us don't think about like, okay, let's do my stretching. We just want to go straight to product. But I think it's also the same. Well, the equivalent to that would be running a marathon. It's like you don't just go run a marathon or you don't just go lift a hundred kilos. Or you're gonna get hurt. You're gonna get hurt. You gotta do the prep, you gotta condition your body. And that's what we're talking about, like you gotta condition your creative muscles. So this is where kids are constantly conditioning because they play. Because they are playing in the playground, they're playing in their ac actively in their imaginations. It's just a huge part of their lives. And you'll see the split between say, I don't know if the terminology is the same in America, but grade six, grade seven, you know, there's a big jump. in terms of the kids' ability to sit down and just write. So before that, because they're out playing the playground, and play comes really, really naturally. So yeah, play is a good word for it. and I think with adults, we do just expect product. We want good use of our time. And I have the same thing. I'm I'm constantly like I just joined a choir this year. And it's I think about it like it's not actively contributing to my career in the way everything else I do does. and so I I find myself having to justify going, which is really interesting. I just noticed that about myself, you know, because I read for fun, but reading helps my job. I listen to podcasts for fun, but they help my job. You know, I come visit you in Amsterdam to do a podcast because it helps my job, I suppose. But it's also just really fun. But it's I I've got that mentality. I've also got a productive mentality. Yep. And I think adults have that. There's an the there's a podcast episode on this podcast. So it was a few months ago, that Everything is Writing Time by with Megan, my friend Megan. And something this is like a way this is probably not a healthy hack. But for me, she she was talking about how play and like hobbies are part of writing. And I'm like, okay, how is that the case? And for her, she's like, because if you're playing and you're using that muscle, it's gonna make it easier to write when you show up to write. And also because you can use that in your books. Like you might write about a girl who doesn't acquire at some point. Well, I think acquires are a great metaphor, especially for someone like me who can't I mean, I feel like I can sing really well, but like all my life I've been told, you know, be quiet, stop singing. It's like, but I wanna sing. And then when you sing with a group of women, it's the most beautiful thing in the world. And you just feel your body like, I can do this, I'm amazing. And it's just a collective experience. It's so beautiful. but every week I have to sort of really rally to get there, you know, because it's outside of my condition. Yeah. I think I think when I I I have to rally to do to do things, but I've also noticed that whenever I do something new, I'm like, okay, well maybe I'll have a character do something like that. This is true too. And yeah, same with problems. I don't know if you get that, but if I face a difficulty thing, I think, well In the future I'll be writing about this, you know, somehow or other. Like this I you can bear it because you know at some point it's gonna somehow feed into you, whether it's like working into a character, a storyline, or just being the engine, the fuel that you need to fight something. Yeah. And so for you, you're saying that kids play all the time, which yeah, I mean, I guess I'm wondering when I stopped actually playing. I was playing with Barbies until I was like thirteen. Yeah. And it was it was such a you know, I I look back and I wish I'd I'd gone longer. But when you're at that age and all your friends start stopping to they're not playing anymore and they're like, that's that's childish and that's silly and you shouldn't be playing with Barbies anymore. I've like I've outgrown that, right? Yeah. So you do have those sort of negative self-talks around those things. But you play, like look at your office. It's full of Fun. It's full of fun times. Yes. Yeah. I so I think it's part of our job that we gravitate towards playful things. Yes. Yeah. Playful people and situations. Yeah. And it's funny, I don't have you ever tried improv? I mean, yes. I don't say like it. I do I used to do acting at school and I was a drama captain. But yeah, I've done improv. Not my favorite. Okay. I asked because is Ant Annie used to teach improv. She we she she would. She would. and she she had she taught a little bit of it. So we went on a writing retreat, like our our own kind of retreat. God, has it been already it's been a while now that we did this. Six months ago or so. No, this was before that. It was in France. I think it might have actually been two years ago now. And we like she forced us into an improv and I was like, but It's funny because you're f you're basically forced to like think of something on the spot and to stop getting stuck in your head. Like you're forced to just like, let's stop yeah overthinking, stop being a perfectionist and just say the first thing that comes to mind. Yeah. Which I think really helps with the muscle of play. It does. Yeah. I don't love improv myself. But I can respect it. I would it. I would choose it. I'm curious when when you go blank. Do you experience I feel like you don't experience writer's block very often, right? I don't experience writer's block much. No. I think I get I I occasionally get down on myself, you know. I'm like a self-critical and I might feel a little like overwhelmed by award season or something like this. You know, like there are things which will wear me down and will affect my mental health, I guess, which that can impact my writing, but I do find that writing often helps get out of that too. So then you just need the discipline to get going. So I think for me, like I like to think of my writing periods as seasons. And because then I can lock into a rhythm. And so that's where I'm having trouble locking into that rhythm right now. Right. And I say trouble, but to be honest, like it was a pretty intense tour. Yeah. It's okay to take some time out and just and yeah, re give yourself time be patient with yourself. And the whole time I have sort of been writing as well. Like I'm just doing little things, so playful things, trying to get myself back there and be gentle with myself and keep that perspective. so my in answer to your question, one way for me is to write very quickly. Okay. So I was awarded this grant a couple of years ago and I have quite a few blockages with executing this project because it's about quite a traumatic situation. The trauma did affect people I knew quite personally and quite directly. so I'm every time I go to write it, I just hesitate. Like I bulk. I freeze. I freeze. And there's a few reasons for that. And I don't and I think they're kind of empathetic reasons. Like I don't think they're bad reasons. But I think because most of the projects I do are very joyful and intentionally so, because I just want to be writing. So I sort of tricked myself into doing that. Because I really have to do this. You know, I've got a grant for it. So I sat down and my idea was to write 4,000 words a day. And that at that pace, I can kind of write ahead of myself doubt. And my first novel I had published, I did write it. peep pace. And it wasn't just I was partly writing to write ahead of myself doubt, but outrun it kind of thing. But I was also writing at that pace because the story felt so incredibly strong and and so intense and I didn't want to let go of the thread of it. So I wanted to stay in the in the spell of the story. That's why I wrote so quickly. But I think having the ability to write fast means I lock in and I just kind of get swept away in it. And I'm not too self-critical of the story. I'm not at back editing, I'm not bulking, I'm not thinking analytically, I'm just in the in the world with my characters. So that's always my goal to get into that. And I suppose people call it flow state or whatever. Yeah. So did you ever teach yourself to write that fast? no, I think it's just my instinct to do this. I I'm I do things quickly, although I read very slowly, unfortunately. but generally I'm I'm quite productive and quite sort of efficient. things and so it comes with the writing. And I think, I mean, I'm not a touch typer, but I can type fairly fast. So yeah, it's I think it's like I have to write as fast as my brain's making up the story rather than hesitating, worrying about the flow of the language and the beauty of the language. Just trusting okay, I got the language. Now just get in there with the characters. Yeah. Make the world and make it as convincing as possible. So I do live in there with the characters as much as I can. Yeah. And so you write fast. Do you have a timer that you put on or something like that? I just need it. No, I just sit down and I write. And often like my problem is I have to force myself to get up and take a break. Like stretch my legs and go to the toilet. Like I can I can sit there for hours and do this. Yeah. And because as soon as I break from it, it it it takes some time to get back into it. So I that's why I'll just stay in it as long as I can. Nice. Yeah. Wow. And it's not healthy probably. It means I can write books. Yeah. Wow, that's so interesting. So you just write really fast so that the self doubt doesn't trickle in so that you can get this the story down. There's no yeah, I haven't got time for the self-doubt. Like it's just I'm just in there with the stories. It's not applicable to my experience. And then when you revise, what does your revision process look like? so I'll just take a break firstly. Don't dive straight back in. I have a friend who also works. w she reads very quickly, which is nice for me. So she'll often read it in a couple of days and then come back to me and we'll just brainstorm and then I'll work with her ideas and then I'll we weave them in. And then I'll again take a break from it and then come back in and just read it start to finish as a reader. I'll read it on my Kin Kobo because it distances me from it. otherwise I'm just trying to tinker with it the whole time. Yeah, I'll probably read it through once or twice on my computer where I can tinker because I want to tinker. And then I'll create some distance for myself. and I'll just keep doing that over and over again until I feel with with some feedback, until I feel like, okay, this is something I feel good about. Yeah. And Often because I've written in that quite instinctual mode, like we all have an instinct for story, because we've all grown up on stories, we've read a lot of stories, we've watched a lot of movies. So I think you have inherently the sense of the story. so often I have don't have to make really big changes. Yeah. So it's just kind of here or there type changes. Well, I'm sure it also helps that you have written a lot of books at this point. Yeah, I think it gives you confidence, maybe. Well, the first one I wrote really quick. Well, ironically, actually, my confidence has meant I've slowed down. So the first book I wrote exceptionally quickly. This I'm not gonna say how quick. The second one I I wrote fairly quickly. And then my third one I wrote a little bit slower. And now I'm and as I get more confident with myself and the story, it actually gets slower and slower. Because I don't have to escape my self doubt. Like I'm I'm I trust that okay, you can actually spend time making a beautiful sentence now. Yeah. Like and and also because I'm reading so much, I've read so much since I wrote that first book, that I've learnt so much about writing and I've got my bar has gone up and up and up and up. And so There's so much I want to do with the story. I I there's no way I'm ever gonna read those earlier books, or be so embarrassed by them because I've learned so much since I wrote I've written them. Yeah. Yeah. I think there is an author, Laura Lauren Steven or Laura Stephen, she wrote Our Infinite Fates and she's written quite a few novels and she she like wrote a substack about how she doesn't love when readers discover her really early books because she's like like this isn't this isn't re representative of my work anymore. And you know, she feels she cringes at her old work. I I can understand that. Yeah. And I think it's kind of a privilege to feel that way, right? Because that means you're growing. Yeah, exactly. And yeah. You always sort of I guess I'm always I don't have like an intense ex relationship with things like rejection or bad sales or things like this. reviews I never read reviews, things like that. Because for me it's like I'm in the project I'm in. Yeah. And that is giving me sustenance and joy and validation and meaning and purpose. And it is where my mind is at anything which is gonna impede that, I don't want to know that. So I just want to be in that space writing with my characters. Have people ever tagged you in reviews and stuff online? Only good ones, thanks for I've never been tagged in a bad But they're often tagging me in reviews or because I've written 50 books. Like you know, you are always getting every day. That's probably the only reason main reason I check Instagram is because of the ta daily tags to, you know, and today it was like a book that came out I want to say seven years ago. Yeah. You know, because they're popping up at libraries and on people's bookshelves and things. It's great. But and just last month, my first book I ever wrote, it just came out on audiobook. It's a picture book. So it's got this whole new life now. so that's really lovely because books just keep on living outside of you. So I it for me it's like I'm just kind of fascinated by that. It's not but it's not personal anymore. And I think it was Mo Willem who said something like this, or I've heard this a few times, that once you make the work, it doesn't belong to you anymore. Yeah, it doesn't. And I love that. Like I love the freedom that gives you. And there's another quote from Jane Yolan, who passed away this year, I believe. and it's one of my favorite ideas. She says something like, making a story is like making putting together a jigsaw puzzle. You lay down pieces, the reader laid down lays down pieces, and together you make a whole picture. Because I love that idea. And you do not have to do everything, like you can give yourself freedom because you're just gonna put your story down because like it or not, the reader will come with their own conditioning, their own experience, their own mood, whatever it is, personality. They will create a whole different experience in their head. So you even if you wanted to control every aspect of it, you can't. Yep. So I love this that once I've written it, it's out of my hands. Exactly. I will generally say, Yes, yes, yes, I'm happy, happy, happy because well But I can't control it. If I don't want to. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. It's like you you're just kind of surrendering it to the people who it's going to belong to now. Exactly. Yeah. And especially if you're a lot of what I write is picture books. So that's the ultimate example of that because you write your manuscript and the illustrator then or even the editor envisions it in a totally different way that it was in your head. And I don't even know what the original conception was. I have no idea. I don't remember. Whereas it becomes a whole new life form on the page with the illustrator and that magic that happens with that collaboration. But I love that. Yeah. Doesn't belong to you. I love that. And has there ever been a period in your career where it stopped feeling playful? Yes. several times. there's one really good example though. so 10 years ago, we were also living in Europe. And just before we move from Australia, well, I was doing all this quite well paid writing for education. So writing like textbooks and things like that. And it was great work because I could just sit, do a contract, because I can this is partly why I can write fast, because I'd often have to write these 80,000 word mam mammoth things and write them really quickly, like have a five-week turnaround sort of thing. Doing that with small children and whatnot. So that kind of got me over that fear, I guess. But just before I left, the company had assured me I would have endless work. There was so much work. Literally, the day we arrived in Europe, they were like, Yeah, there is no more work. We're taking all of that work internally. And we were stumped because we were meant to be relying on me for an income. so we had arrived in Europe with our little family. Nothing. So thank goodness for the kindness of your people around us that we were able to have a place to stay. my God. without paying through the nose in accommodation and whatever. So we just existed for that year, living a very, very simple life. and yeah, we're still doing it apparently. but it yeah, I like it though. But that during that time I was very, very Cause I didn't have a job and I didn't have any income, but I also didn't have big expenses. So I was really, really motivated to just make something of this book career. I was writing so, so much. I can't even think how many things I wrote. I think at some point I calculated I sent out a hundred different submissions to nice agents and publishers and whatnot. I just wanted something to take off, you know? And likewise, I was going to courses and I was learning and I was constantly evolving and constantly grow, grow, grow, grow, grow. So it's a very experimental time. A lot came out of it. But after about 10 months of this, I remember feeling really demoralized. And we were on in this camping by this beautiful lake in Italy. We just done one of the most beautiful walks I've ever done. It was one of my favorite days, Lake Izio. And we came back that afternoon, had an email from a friend saying, Yeah, you've got another book deal. I was like, I'm so happy for you. but my main thought was, why can't I do this? Like maybe I'm delusional. Maybe I actually am delusional. I I had had two books published by this point. So I had felt, yeah, you know, you're on your way, but maybe I'm not. Maybe I really can't do this. and I felt That was the first time I really questioned whether I can do it. and my husband said to me, you should probably give up then. It's making you really miserable. It's like, I felt so affronted. How dare you? It doesn't make me miserable. Writing is my life force. Like I just spent a whole week sitting by the lake before that writing writing a novel, start to finish. And it was just such joy. I said, I love writing. And he said, Well, don't worry about the publishing side of things. Don't worry about getting published. Do it because you love it. Yeah. and that was just such a great reminder. And I just felt this massive relief. And I kid you not, Monica. I sat down at my computer that afternoon. It would have been 3 a.m. on a Sunday in Australia, opened my computer. I had a four book offer. And they also said, And would you like to write this other series for it? I said, what universe, what that's crazy it was, but I've never forgotten it. And it's and honestly, that was when my career properly began. Right. but I needed to learn that lesson and I really did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And have do you ever write stuff with that is just for fun and you don't you don't publish it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I've I've got thousands of stories on my computer. I often write short stories just for fun, for funsies, picture books often for funsies, because they're only like 350 words or so. And and I w and I'm really writing not for something perfect and not to get it published. Just because I just want to see where the idea is going. So I have this metaphor I use that your creativity is. like gardening. So you have to create rich, fertile story soil. And the way to do that is of course by reading, you know, nourishing your story soil, watching movies, making observations, writing in your journal, doing the stretch and tone like we were talking about. You can't just plant your story seeds into barren, sandy, nutritionless soil. So then you've got your around you is always story seeds. You're always getting exposed to stories. You just have to pay attention to them. and then but then you first have to plant your story seed. You can't just, there's a story seed and off it goes. You've got to do something with it. So that's what sitting down at the computer trying to see where it's gonna go. I will often plant the story seed, but then you also have to water it, nurture it, give it time. So the obviously the more time and water and attention you give that story, the bigger it will grow and the more healthy it will grow. But I also like this metaphor because as it grows, you get this wily old tree. And then you have to prune it. And that is your editing. Yes. The thing is with that is that all of the debris is going back into the story soil, feeding and nurturing news stories. So that gives me freedom and bravery never to feel too attached to anything. So that's part so I had I've written several novels even that won't ever get published. And I don't have any intention for them to be published. Like it was really just growing that. strength, that story strength, building that creativity, learning, whilst every time every novel I write, I'm learning something. and I mentioned that I'd written a grown-up novel this year for the first time. And it was funny because I was well, I was in that zone of like I have to write 4,000 words a day on this middle grade novel for the grant. And on that weekend, the first weekend of my flow state I had a voice niggle at me. it was an adult voice, unfortunately. It was a Sunday morning. I was meant to be going with my daughter to town. My computer just happened to be sitting there in the kitchen. I just, I'm just gonna sit down and write a bit just to get it out of my head. So I haven't. And that was an occasion where I was just electric. Like it was just electricity coming out of my fingers. It was so fun. I was beaming the whole day because I was like, my God, these voices, these characters, I'm so excited. And so every day of my self-instructed four thousand words, I started with the adult novel because I was like, this is so much fun. And lo and behold, unfortunately, the middle grade slipped away because I was having so much fun with the other one. But so I just go where the fun is. Yeah. That's been my career. That's why it has worked out. It's worked out. That's also why I have so many different books. Because again, with this teen book, I didn't plan to write a teen book. I was writing middle grade books. But then the story came, the voices came. I'm gonna go where the fun is. This is what's happening. And then next thing I'm off and I'm doing it. But for me that's the authentic because I'm always trying to write authentically. So it's the authentic experience. I love it. I'm not writing with an agenda. let's talk about mess next. So you, you, we talk about about mess and you talk we're talking about like stretch and tone things like that. What does mess look like for you in your creative process? well I think that just comes with writing really fast. It's like it's not gonna be a nice clean manuscript. yeah, I don't know. I'm not I'm not a perfectionist. Nice. I'm not. And you'll see that in all aspects of my life. But I'm it's a bit like how I cook, you know, like I can't follow a recipe, cannot, so I can't bake. but I can cook. But I love throwing things together. I love make throwing spices together and being a bit extra, put in a whole bulb of garlic, this sort of thing. and playing with flavors and being creative with it. so I think all aspects of my life look a bit like that. my house is like, it's great, you know, but it's it's not like super, super neat. It's definitely not neat. it's creative. I love it. So you you've never had issues with perfectionism? Never. That's so fascinating. No, not at all. If anything, I have to sort of be disciplined to apply myself to keep on going with something to make it more perfect. And like with a blog post or a website post or an Instagram post. And I'll I honestly will read over it a million times and I'll post it and then always there's a typo or something. Well yeah. my gosh. So I feel like even if I invest that time in perfectionism, it's it happens all the time anyway. I just can't see the mistakes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I really can't. I think some people like it's almost like you I I I always talk about her in this podcast. I'm sorry. She's my cult leader, you guys. Amy McNee. She on her podcast talks about like like James, her husband, have to like fix all her grammar because she's just like, I don't fucking care. Like that's just what she says, he's like, I just don't care. Like I will just write it and like let it come out of me. And then he has to go in and clean it up. And some people are just like that. Like they're not thinking about it's why you have editors. Yeah, I'm trying to do my best for the editors' sake as well. And I do think my writing has improved over the years. and I'm definitely, yeah. Striving for something. So you I maybe I'm wrong, correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe when you were at the beginning of your career, were you not very self conscious about your writing? Not at all. Fascinating. Not at all. I was just joyful, like it was The first manuscript, so the way my publishing career came about was I was wanting to write for children. I was reading a lot of children's books and reviewing them. I had a blog and was sent a lot of children's books every month. And one day one of my readers reached out and asked me for advice about a a cot, a porter cot. I was like, I have no idea, but I'll ask my community. And she was really grateful. She said, can I send you some books as a thank you? I'm a children's book publisher. I was like, hang on a second, what? and looking back, I think it was an invitation or you know, her just it was a way to bridge that gap. And she sent her little business card in there and I gave it to my husband, keep that card, never lose it, because I am good at losing things. Fits with the story. and But she did actually reach out to me on email too and say, I noticed on your blog that you're wanting to write for children. If you have something, send me something. and so then I thought, gosh, wow. And I I did sort of have something and I I felt a lot of well, pressure that it has to obviously be worth publishing. Yeah. so I sent it to the one writer I knew who's related to me. and His feedback was pretty ho-hum. But also he doesn't read picture books. He doesn't know. my neighbor was a little bit critical as well, but again, she's not in the industry. And I was ready to just throw it all away and I wasn't gonna send that story. I was like, nah, it's not good. So I'm very quick to be told something that's not good. Right. And then I move on. I don't stick, you know, write something and stick with it to the to the death sort of thing. but my husband said, No, I love this story. It always makes me feel a bit teary. Send it. Don't worry about the feedback, just go. And so I thank goodness I did, because it was my first book and she did like it, did get published. And I think that early success was what I needed to kind of give me that jolt and that confidence. And then I got signed on for a picture book with a very, very famous illustrator straight up and it got selected for the White Ravens International Library and things like this. And it sold into America, China, eight-way auctions type thing. so that little early taste of success was probably the boost of confidence I needed to just go, yeah, I've got this. And then and then go, no, hang on, I'm just having so much fun with my creativity. yeah. So from that after that lake incident, that moment of feeling a bit down and questioning myself. All the things I had experimented with during that time, and there was a lot of different things, many of those things have ended up being published and are still in publication now. And so I've had a few periods of my life like that which were just intensely creative, where I just had a let go and I was just making for the sake of making. Yeah. And another time was when I wrote my first middle grade novel. it was a time of unhousing where we were literally like. homeless for three months. where we didn't have a house to live in. So we had to move around and stay with people. And it was unsettling in a way, but for me it was very creative. And I was just writing, writing, writing, writing and experimenting and just so open minded, I think, and so fearless. I think that's and I do think that's pretty consistent with my personality. When I look back at my childhood, and maybe this relates back to your first question. was that, you know, I grew up in the wild bush of Australia. And I think about the adventures I used to go on as a four year old with the wild snakes and the wild pigs and whatnot. And I thought I I'm pretty brave. Like and I'm both of us have moved to the other side of the world without, you know, much community or anything. And we're just and I think it's very brave. And I do think that courage has been probably the number one thing that has informed my career. Yeah. Yeah. And it encourages a muscle. You have to continue using it because sometimes there'll be times when you're like, I don't wanna. I don't wanna. But like we'll both get ourselves up out of the door and go to a book night because you think, but I mean might meet someone. Exactly. And you might have a great conversation about books. So I will. Yeah. Yeah. So you there it comes with that. And I think for me that's That bravery is bigger and louder than the resistance. Yeah. And that's always been the way with me. And it's funny. That's how kids are, I think. That's how kids are. Yeah. A lot of the time. I've noticed, I have two thoughts. I've noticed some some writers who have children find it easier to write and to play. I've noticed something like because they play with their kids. Yeah. They're like getting in, you know, playing Barbies with their kids or like, you know, stuff like that. That's true. and second. My the short the short story that I published a few months ago in the Born of Rage anthology, that started from a a very different situation. Like I I used to have in my membership this thing called the Attic Notebook. we s people still do it, but it's s if you've listened to the podcast for a while, you might have heard me talk about this. And it's something that Laney Taylor developed. It was not I'm not taking credit for this. If you want to look up Attic Notebook Lainey Taylor, she has a whole blog post on it. And it's where you have like a notebook. And you you show up for writing. She usually recommends, I think, a short notebook because you can fill them up faster. And you just write something, whether it's like you use a a prompt, whether you use an image, whatever you want to do, you write something that sounds fun that day. And you just write it. And then the next day you write something new. And the next day you write something new and you just continue prompting yourself. And you don't look back or try to edit anything. You don't look back to read anything. And then when you're done, you just stash it in the attic. Yeah. And I my the story I wrote, the one about the apothecary and the witch, came from me writing a little story about an apothecary. Yeah. And like the original idea was just like, this girl lost her grandmother. For some reason, a lot of my stories have dead grandmothers. I guess I was traumatized. she lost her grandmother and lost her magic in the same night. And I was and I was like, okay, like what is what is here? Like what is happening? I also had I knew I had to have a cat and I had to have dragons because I love both of those things. And it wasn't like I didn't go very deeply the the day I wrote it. I just kind of wrote some ideas and like kind of wrote the beginning. And it doesn't look necessarily like it like it does now with the beginning, but that was from play. Yeah. Like this first story that I the the first fiction story I ever published was from play. Yeah. And so I'm very curious what you think. How how do you teach someone to experiment when they're terrified of wasting their time? I hear this so much. Well, it's not a waste of time anything that you experiment with, because it doesn't have to lead anywhere. Because all the things you're saying are nurturing the soil. Yeah. They're create so none of that is a waste of time. So I am an intensely productive person, as we've mentioned. Like I I do count my minutes and I do consider, you know, I I find it hard to say yes to things which don't directly in you know, impact my career and benefit, you know, my family in some way, you know, to feel like they have to fit into some sort of commodified time slot or whatever. But having said that, like everything feeds that soil. So we were just talking about how I signed up to choir recently. And I I feel almost guilty about doing this thing, which takes me well, half an hour and tran so an hour of transport, two hours of thing, I think three hours away every single week doing something for fun. Hmm, how does that fit in with my my life? and I find it hard. On the other hand, it it helps that soil, like it creates joy, it's a fun thing to do, and you gotta have hobbies. Yes. I feel like it's actually I've I've been learning to try to make it so that my my writing isn't my only creative hobby. And it's funny because my my parents and I I think my mom listened to this podcast, so I'm not blaming you. But we love you, Mom. I love you, Mom. my my parents are both artists, like art visual artists. And I think we've talked about how my dad's a was a Virgo. And when I was growing up, I would like start making or I would just draw stupid random shit. And I think I might have been 10. And I went and showed my dad something I drew and he started giving me feedback. And I started to learn, like, I don't I didn't want that. Like I just wanted to just be told like this is cute. Like, you know, I wasn't trying to be good. I wasn't trying to like become a great artist. Like I was just fucking around finding out. Yes. And so I've I've not allowed myself to really go in the visual arts direction because I knew that I would get critiqued by my father. This is such a good point. This actually leads back to our earlier conversation. So the very first writing workshop I ever wrote for kids and I learned so quickly. So it was a cute little country school. And like I said said, I feel like I want to nurture joy and create confidence. That's my main goal with these courses. and this I always say to the kids, well, firstly, and this is a tip for adults as well. Write like no one's watching, like write this thing. No one is gonna read it. That's what I say to them. No one is gonna read this thing. Can I write about guns? You can write about whatever you want. You can write about can I write about murder? You can write about murder. Can I swear? You can swear. just Whatever you want to do and do it in the way you want to do it. So if you want to do it as pictures, what about my spell? Don't worry about your spelling. Don't worry about your grammar. Just go for it. And all I want to hear is the screech, screech, screech of a pen on a page, because I we're not gonna you're not gonna be asking me anything. Right once we get going. and I give them some tools to begin with. Like we've developed characters by this point. I've given them some idea of like, you know, what's the character's problem, what's the character's goal? They don't need much. Because they've got it all. but they love that time to write. So from 10 to 15 minutes of just quiet writing time, it is pure silence. And this little boy in that very first one, he had never written before. It was so sweet. And he he was just so engrossed in his story. And it was basically a one-pager, and it was literally a retelling of Star Wars, which is amazing. and afterwards he sat up, his shoulders went back, he beamed, he was so proud of himself, my heart exploded. I was like, wow, this stuff is amazing, right? And he just held up his page, he said, I have never written more than a sentence before. He was so proud. Then the principal came around, arms crossed, looking over all the kids. Mm-hmm, hang on. And how would you spell that word? And she pointed to a word. And his shoulders crumpled, he his head bent and he did not write again. For the rest of the workshop. And I was so mad at her. And I I try and keep the teachers and everyone out of it because I know they have a different goal than I do. Their goal, of course, is, you know, they have different criteria they have to meet than I do. I'm coming in for fun with the kids. My only goal is to inspire them, to engage them, and I'm giving them practical tips. But I more want them to get that confidence and that joy. Well, that's not taught. 'Cause the rest comes naturally. The rest comes naturally. You can learn that. I I'm gonna say something so unpopular. I think the I I have a lot of very negative opinions about the education system as somebody who's ADHD and had a really hard time in the education system. I don't know how it is in in Europe. I've never been in in Europe or in Australia. In the US, it was a hot mess when I was going school. And you are not taught to have what you gave that little boy. Like you're not taught to like let your freedom. shine at all. No. It's all about like the grammar and making sure that you like have the right prose. It's all about like the five paragraph essay. And of course you'll have have teachers who break out of that mold. That's I think that's why I'm a writer, because when I was in h in college, I had this brilliant teacher who broke out of that mold. And I remember one of my my peers was like, well What if we actually learned about literature in this class? And I was like, what the fuck do you mean when we learn about literature? Like it's been an incredible class. And he's done it in a very non-traditional way. But so many people don't realize, like when you're when you're looking at somebody's grammar or their prose or whether it's good or not and all this stuff, like you're basically you're you're basically like putting out a candle. Like that person is a candle and you're putting out their candle. Yeah. And those things will come with time, like you said. It's the same thing I think with with learning a language. Mm-hmm. I took a class last year at Natals, which is in the Netherlands, for Dutch. And they really don't teach you a lot of grammar. They do a little bit, but they actually are teaching you mainly to speak. And you you know, the grammar is terrible. You're practicing your Dutch in a way that's like, wow, I like saying this stuff like I my Dutch is terrible, but you're actually learning to speak it. And then the grammar comes. Confidence is absolutely about this. So I'm trying to yeah, because I'm in the same situation, except I've been married to a Dutch guy for nearly 20 years. And so I really should speak Dutch. but it's I try and think it's like I I wanna I I want to learn like a kid learns. Yes. They learn in these, you know, they're not saying the right thing and it's super cute what how kids put things This is kind of saying it wrong and as we will as well. So I'm gonna look into this course. So it sounds really good. Yeah, I might take another one. I need to do this. Yeah. I need to get the confidence because yeah, I have a lot of inhibition with learning a language. Yes. And I think that's how people feel about writing. They have a lot of inhibition with writing. I don't have it with writing, but I have it with learning a language. Yeah, I do too, with learning language especially. Cause it's you know, you feel like an like an idiot with I'm just hopeless. Yeah. Again, I have all the self talk. I'm said I but I don't try because I'm not confident. Exactly. Worried about getting critiqued and worried about getting rejected. All the things that writers probably worry about. And also I think what you were talking about your friends who looked at your writing and and you're like, Okay, I guess the story isn't good. This reminds me, like, don't listen to all the people who critique you, like listener. Like it the reality is okay, first of all, yes, feedback is good. But sometimes can be. Sometimes it's not. Sometimes your friend doesn't read your genre and doesn't know anything about your genre. And they'll be like, I'll give you feedback. And and like that feedback isn't helpful because they have no idea what you're even trying to do. So the one consistent thing I've heard amongst clients that have mentored with their writing was, I showed this to my writers group and now I'm really confused because they also have different things. And this is a problem. And I think Well, I don't want to genderize this, but I feel like women do tend to do this quite a lot. Like they will share their thing, they will take on other people's advice, thinking it's better than their own. And they lose instinct. They lose trust with themselves. So this is a thing that leads back to all of these topics we've been talking about actually. Is that that's partly why I have to go into that season or that that writing kind of trance almost is that I'm trying to connect with my instinct and listen to my voice, listen to myself, listen to my choices, my preferences. Because and I I actually don't talk to very many people at all during that time. I have that one writing friend I show my rough draft to, my daughter I show a little bit to, but mo because I know that I'm so quickly swayed away from that voice and I lose touch with that instinct and with that trust. So I would say to your listeners, if you can remember to trust yourself, that is really, really important for your story, for the authenticity of your story. And also, yeah, you got this. Like you you you have been writing stories, reading stories, consuming stories your whole life, and you are your own person. So your preferences will be so different from mine. So the minute you share your story with someone else, you're opening it up to You know, a whole different raft of perspectives and personal experiences and maybe the person reading it on that day of having a bit of a flat time or maybe it's triggered them or whatever it is. maybe they don't know the genre very well. Right. They don't get your story. So I would say choose your critique partners and your readers with care and listen with care too. So when you're getting your feedback in, you do not have to take all of it on. Take time with it, let it sit with you and And just yeah, listen to it and then listen to yourself and listen to where it sits with your personal preferences. Not everything should go in there. Every change has to be made. Yeah. No, I think and I think a lot of times we're taught as writers that feedback is number one and that we need to learn to take it and and like yes, see a certain level of feedback is totally useful. But I think we are basically teaching people not to trust their own instincts, like you said. Yeah. And I love this quote from Jerry Seinfeld actually. he was talking on a podcast once about how he always gives his creativity one day the list before he shows anyone because he just wants to revel in the joy of the making of it and reward yourself like you made something, like you created something. So enjoy that experience before you show anyone. Yeah. So I have to remember that and and stop myself from sending it to my friend Kia. For example, who I know will be really positive and lovely about it. But it's also like don't send it straight away. Because this is just yours. You get to enjoy this for the day. And tomorrow you can send it to someone. Yes. How did you find a person to send your work to who you trusted? I just it evolved. So I did yeah, have a little writers group and she kind of came through that and sh we just gelled like I I love her writing, I love her perspective and She's such a generous reader and she's such a generous thinker as well. And she's got she's got a lot of peps. So I need that. I need that pep. Like she she'll read my thing and she'll start with this huge rave. And I'm like, and I'm all filled up and I totally believe everything word she says. Cause and I think she means it. and then she goes in, well, I just wanted to ask you about, and then she'll ask me a couple of questions, which are just I'm like, You're so right. I was just avoiding facing that problem. And I love it. So she's kind of like my altering like she'll just say everything I need to hear to write about a story. Is she Australian? She is, yeah. But she's just and now she's doing this for a few people. I was like, don't do it for too many people, please. I'll lose you. Yeah, I'll lose you. You'll be too busy. You need to write your own stuff too. yeah. So anyway, just be careful with feedback. But also, yeah, the first critique. Partner, if it's not the best match, or if it's not filling your cup and filling your soul and making you want to write more. Yeah. I would say maybe check out another one. Yep, check out another one. Yes. So tell us about this retreat. Yeah. So next May, it's going to be so beautiful. So we found this beautiful castle. it's in the Loire Valley. It's eight beautiful bedrooms. So you each get your own beautiful room. And every morning we'll start with creative exercises. So there'll be some sketching, some writing. And for people who are fearful of sketching or think, I'm not an illustrator, I can't draw. Well, it doesn't matter. But also you can. And likewise for the illustrators in the room, you can write. Yeah. Just come, just explore, just discover, just learn to trust yourself. And so both Dorian and I are very experienced facilitators. So we'll just be guiding and nurturing and all the themes we've talked about today, just kind of filling people up with joy and confidence, basically. Meanwhile, also eating French cheese and drinking French wine, and there'll be French me meals served every evening. And we've also got activities. So one day we're going to this beautiful place called Bella Bajo. I'm not sure how you say it. It's run by a Parisian chef and we do a cooking course with him. Then with three course dinner, we eat together in this beautiful setting. Another day we go to a different chateau and do a you know, sketchy tour. So the whole the whole week is designed to, well, bring people together, connect. but also lead you through the journey of making a book start to finish. So if you came with zero ideas, you could leave with a maybe not publishable, but you would know what to do with it to make it a publishable manuscript and storyboard. yeah. So it's it's like aimed at picture books, but I think it doesn't have to you don't have to be a picture book writer to get something out of it. I love it. And and you said it's in France. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm curious, When you say it's aimed at picture book writers, what about people who've never written one but want to write one? absolutely. Yeah. So it said suitable for all levels. And that's true because all the retreats I've run over the years, there'll be people who've never really written anything. Yeah. And there'll be people who have won multiple awards. And they're all there together. And that's also part of the magic of it. Is that it's a very equalizing experience. And no matter what, you will discover something about yourself or about the process or If nothing else, just have a fun time doing it. Yeah. It's funny, I think retreats, people don't realize like the magic that comes with them until they've gone through one. Because I remember years ago I went on a retreat. It was my first it's my first retreat. And well, I d I gone on a few others, but they were very different. They weren't like necessarily like generative. And this one I went and my roommate from that retreat is like now still one of my closest friends. And we like we get we talk all the time and I that wouldn't have happened if I hadn't been there and gotten to share that space. And it's just something about being able to join people in a in a space that's like it's contained creative space. So you don't get any of that that anywhere else. No. It's it's so rare and it's so special. And I just feel this literal magic of opening up the door for the first time and just the rush of goodness that comes with that. And and I have complete trust in myself as a phil facilitator too. Like I just know the group will work. I know the flow will happen every single time. Like yeah, it's it's a really special experience. and all my retreat people still keep on chatting for years afterwards. And some of them have been published out of it and some of them have just become lifelong friends. And yeah. Yeah, it's very special. I love it. And where else can people where do people find the retreat and where do people find you? So Instagram's probably easiest. So Zanny Louise at Zanny Louise. So Zanny spelt Z-A-N-N-I Louise. and I have a website. You got all my links on there. ZannyLouise.com. and there's information about the retreat on both my Instagram and personally. through my website. So yeah. Yeah. My goodness. This has been lovely. This has been lovely. Thank you for joining us. This is so nice. Thank you so much. Well, this is all my favorite topics. So this has just been a wonderful chat. Thank you. I love it. Thank you guys for watching. See you next time.