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Spoiled Saturdays: Dr. Strange (Multiverse of Madness) · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Steph.
0:07
Speaker 1: I never told your production of I Heeart Radio. And
0:19
Speaker 1: welcome to a new segment. We've been teasing this one
0:25
Speaker 1: for a while. I think we've had this idea for
0:28
Speaker 1: like two years and we haven't really done it. But
0:33
Speaker 1: welcome to Spoil Saturdays, which will probably be at once
0:39
Speaker 1: a month thing where we just to have a conversation
0:44
Speaker 1: about a piece of media, perhaps new and perhaps not,
0:48
Speaker 1: and we're gonna totally spoil you on it, um, and
0:53
Speaker 1: we're just gonna have It's gonna be a bit more conversational,
0:55
Speaker 1: but there's still plenty of of research to go around. Uh.
1:00
Speaker 1: And yes, you're ears not see few as this comes out.
1:03
Speaker 1: It is a Saturday and we are talking about Doctor
1:07
Speaker 1: Strange the Multiverse of Madness, which yes, we have been
1:12
Speaker 1: hinting at pieces teases for many weeks. I think it's true.
1:20
Speaker 1: It's true. Um, we're very excited about it and actually
1:24
Speaker 1: doing the research for this one, which I did do
1:26
Speaker 1: the research. I've determined we need to do an episode
1:29
Speaker 1: on Medusa, also a revisit on bad Mothers in horror
1:34
Speaker 1: movies in the wake of Roe v. Wade because I
1:36
Speaker 1: found a very deep essay about this movie and that,
1:39
Speaker 1: and I was like, that's too much for what we're
1:42
Speaker 1: going to talk about in this, but we should come
1:44
Speaker 1: back and revisit that. Okay, Yeah, yeah, So basically I
1:51
Speaker 1: think this will probably switch off. Sometimes Samantha will take
1:54
Speaker 1: the lead and sometimes I'll take the lead. But in
1:55
Speaker 1: this one, I'm going to run down the plot and
1:58
Speaker 1: then we're just going to discuss. But this is a
2:02
Speaker 1: very fairly recent movie. So if you haven't seen it
2:05
Speaker 1: and you don't want to be spoiled, here's rewarding. It's
2:08
Speaker 1: in the title Spoiled Saturday. So then come back, yes,
2:12
Speaker 1: because we got a lot to talk about and I'm
2:14
Speaker 1: very excited about it. All right. So plot wise, this
2:18
Speaker 1: is a two movie in Phase four of the Marvel
2:22
Speaker 1: Cinematic Universe, also known as the m c U. Is
2:25
Speaker 1: directed by Sam Ramy, written by Michael Waldron, and it
2:28
Speaker 1: starts Benedict Cumberbatch reprising his role as Doctor Strange, Elizabeth
2:32
Speaker 1: Olsen as Wanda Slash Scarlet, which Benedict Wong as Wong,
2:36
Speaker 1: Just Watcho Gomez as America Chavez, and a whole host
2:40
Speaker 1: of cameos from Schwetel G four, Rachel McAdams, John Krasinski,
2:44
Speaker 1: Haley Atwell, Latasha Lynch, and Patrick Stewart. Uh huh um, okay,
2:50
Speaker 1: So the plot very briefly. The movie opens on a
2:54
Speaker 1: different version of Doctor Strange working with America, trying to
2:58
Speaker 1: get their hands on the Book of Ashanti, and they
3:02
Speaker 1: are trying to escape what appears to be a multidimensional demon. Uh. Yeah,
3:07
Speaker 1: that's that's how we start, everybody, so hold on, um.
3:11
Speaker 1: Things go wrong and Doctor Strange tries to kill America,
3:15
Speaker 1: that is killed himself. America uses her verse jumping power
3:20
Speaker 1: to get out. She can jump between universes and arrives
3:23
Speaker 1: in our universe, Earth six one six. Meanwhile, our doctor
3:29
Speaker 1: Strange wakes from a nightmare, having witnessed what just happened.
3:34
Speaker 1: He shakes it off and prepares for Christine's, who is
3:37
Speaker 1: his ex his her wedding. The wedding is interrupted by
3:41
Speaker 1: a big demon attacking and Doctor Strange and Ravines. Realizing
3:45
Speaker 1: that the creature is after America. America tells Wong and
3:49
Speaker 1: Doctor Strange she is being hunted because of her power
3:51
Speaker 1: to jump through the multiverse, and that the body of
3:54
Speaker 1: the Doctor Strange that died that we saw at the
3:57
Speaker 1: beginning is stashed on the roof of the Kedom. And
4:01
Speaker 1: also all dreams are mirrors of other realities. Al right, whatever. Anyway,
4:06
Speaker 1: Doctor Strange seeks out the guidance of Wanda maximum Slash,
4:10
Speaker 1: the Scarlet Witch, who has sort of become a hermit
4:13
Speaker 1: after the death of her love Vision and her children
4:18
Speaker 1: that she created in in Westview that they were raised.
4:22
Speaker 1: So if you haven't seen Wanda Vision, this is very confusing.
4:26
Speaker 1: And this was definitely the first time I thought, Wow,
4:28
Speaker 1: if you haven't seen that previous Marvel thing, then I
4:31
Speaker 1: don't know what you're doing right now, Like you probably
4:33
Speaker 1: are very confused. Um, and yes, I also didn't really
4:38
Speaker 1: care about Vision and Wanda's relationship or the kids. And
4:42
Speaker 1: I blame Marvel because they aren't particularly good with relationships
4:44
Speaker 1: and especially women are relationships. But I just never bought it. Anyway. Uh,
4:49
Speaker 1: turns out Wanda is the one who is hunting America surprise,
4:55
Speaker 1: and she wants America's powers in order to be with
4:58
Speaker 1: her kids in another universe, but also the power to
5:02
Speaker 1: jump between universes in case something goes wrong, like if
5:05
Speaker 1: they get sick, maybe in another universe they have the
5:07
Speaker 1: cure to whatever is ailing them, which involves Wanda killing America. Okay,
5:14
Speaker 1: so Wanda Warren's Strange not to stop her, that she
5:17
Speaker 1: will get what she wants no matter the cost, because
5:20
Speaker 1: she is I don't matter. Um. It is very briefly
5:23
Speaker 1: explained that she acquired the Dark Hold, which is this
5:26
Speaker 1: kind of evil grim More book, and it has corrupted her.
5:29
Speaker 1: But they breathe by that point pretty quickly. More on now. Later,
5:33
Speaker 1: Strange refuses to give up Chavez, and they, along with
5:37
Speaker 1: many other sorcerers, including the sorcerer Supreme Wong, take refuge
5:41
Speaker 1: in car Martage. Wanda attacks, telling Strange this is her
5:45
Speaker 1: being reasonable. She demolishes Cammartage and kills violently. I might
5:50
Speaker 1: add many sorcerers. Terrified America accidentally sends her and Strange
5:55
Speaker 1: to Earth eight three eight, which, by the way, if
5:58
Speaker 1: it wasn't clear, America it doesn't really have control over
6:02
Speaker 1: powers because they're tied to a lot of trauma for her.
6:05
Speaker 1: In Earth eight, Strange is dead. Their Strange is dead,
6:10
Speaker 1: but lauded as a hero. However, our version of doctor
6:13
Speaker 1: Strange and Chavez are captured by Christine and Karl Mondo
6:17
Speaker 1: and Strange is brought before the Illuminati. Um, so that's
6:21
Speaker 1: Karl Mondo, Peggy Carter as Captain Carter, Black, Aguar Boltigan,
6:27
Speaker 1: uh Maria Rambo, Read Richards, and Professor X basically an
6:32
Speaker 1: alternative ventures and they explained that their version of doctor
6:37
Speaker 1: Strange triggered a universe destroying incursion by recklessly by recklessly
6:43
Speaker 1: using the Dark Hole to defeat Thanos. On Santos was defeated,
6:48
Speaker 1: the Illuminati killed Doctor Strange and line to the world
6:51
Speaker 1: about what happened, touting him as a hero to hide
6:53
Speaker 1: the truth. Morto in particular, thanks any version of doctor
6:57
Speaker 1: Strange is too dangerous and should be killed old. So
7:01
Speaker 1: while this is happening, Wanda from our world forces Wong
7:06
Speaker 1: to lead her to Mount Wondergoer so she can dream
7:10
Speaker 1: walk in the version of her living in Earth eight
7:13
Speaker 1: through eight, happily raising her kids, essentially hijacking that Wanda's body.
7:20
Speaker 1: Um and this was after she killed another sorcerer for
7:22
Speaker 1: destroying the Dark Hold. So our Wanda arrives at the
7:26
Speaker 1: Illuminati headquarters before they can pass judgment on Strange and
7:29
Speaker 1: violently kills all of them but Morto, who was engaged
7:33
Speaker 1: in a fight with Strange Chavez, Strange, and Christine Palmer
7:37
Speaker 1: from that world are able to escape Wanda, and they
7:41
Speaker 1: enter the space between universes to find the mythical Book
7:44
Speaker 1: of Ashanti, believed to be the opposite of the Dark Hold. However,
7:49
Speaker 1: Wanda destroys it, captures America, and uses her power to
7:52
Speaker 1: send Strange and Christine to a universe in the midst
7:54
Speaker 1: of an incursion. In this universe, their version of doctor
7:58
Speaker 1: Strange allowed things to quote get a little out of hand.
8:02
Speaker 1: The two fight after our version of doctor Strange refuses
8:06
Speaker 1: to give him Christine, and our Strange is eventually victorious.
8:10
Speaker 1: He dream walks into the corpse of the other version
8:13
Speaker 1: of himself left on our Earth, and with the help
8:17
Speaker 1: of Wan, he frees Chavez and convinces her that she
8:20
Speaker 1: can control her power and defeat Scarlett Witch. Chavez does
8:24
Speaker 1: so by jumping them both back to Earth eight three
8:27
Speaker 1: eight and showing that Wanda children, Uh, basically, look what
8:33
Speaker 1: this monster. Look at this Wanda monster. She's terrifying. Your
8:36
Speaker 1: children are so scared of you. Right, and our Wanda
8:40
Speaker 1: experiences a change of heart after the three eight Wanda
8:44
Speaker 1: promises her the children will be loved are Wanda destroys
8:48
Speaker 1: all versions of the Dark Hold across the multiverse, seemingly
8:51
Speaker 1: dying in the process. Um everyone goes back to their
8:55
Speaker 1: correct universe, apart from Chavez, who accidentally sent her parents
8:58
Speaker 1: to a different universe as a child and has been
9:01
Speaker 1: traumatized yes around her power ever since. Chevez begins training
9:05
Speaker 1: with other sorcerers at Cammertage. Doctor Strange grows a third
9:08
Speaker 1: eye due to his interaction with the Dark Cold. He
9:11
Speaker 1: is approached by a sorceress who tells him he triggered
9:14
Speaker 1: an incursion, and he follows her into the Dark dimension.
9:17
Speaker 1: Then the probably not Yeah, So I wanted to open
9:37
Speaker 1: this before we get into some themes about your initial
9:40
Speaker 1: thoughts and reactions. Well, I obviously texted you or may
9:44
Speaker 1: have called you, or maybe I don't remember what it
9:46
Speaker 1: was face to face. Who knows, Because I was like,
9:48
Speaker 1: why did they do this to Wanda? This seems so unnecessary.
9:53
Speaker 1: I have a lot of questions. Of course, I know
9:55
Speaker 1: there's a lot to do with canon Um and that
9:58
Speaker 1: it did exist and it happened this way to a
10:00
Speaker 1: certain extent. Of course, Sam Raymie, who is dragged me
10:04
Speaker 1: to Hell and the other Spider Man fame has a
10:07
Speaker 1: lot of like on his shoulders and dragged Me to
10:10
Speaker 1: Hell was very present in this entire movie. So I
10:13
Speaker 1: know this is supposed to be their first foray into horror,
10:17
Speaker 1: maybe second, because I guess, uh, Moon Night was supposed
10:21
Speaker 1: to be kind of that jump in the horror world
10:23
Speaker 1: as well, So I get that that's what it's supposed
10:27
Speaker 1: to be. I just felt like they demonized her so hardcore,
10:32
Speaker 1: who was one of the only few remaining women in
10:38
Speaker 1: this league at all these Avengers, and while most of
10:42
Speaker 1: them had heroic endings, we don't have that heroic ending here.
10:47
Speaker 1: And even with her death, it's so minimized that no
10:51
Speaker 1: one talks about it. It's the same as obviously Black Widow,
10:56
Speaker 1: where it was just like so minimized, Like what is happening?
11:00
Speaker 1: Maybe they're coming back, So that's my only thoughts, Like
11:02
Speaker 1: are they coming back? So they're not making it a
11:04
Speaker 1: big deal. I don't understand. And why is it that
11:07
Speaker 1: their only redemption in their dark past has to be death.
11:10
Speaker 1: We're gonna break down a lot of that as we
11:13
Speaker 1: go through this, because people have written about this, people
11:18
Speaker 1: have thoughts and feelings about it. I will say when
11:21
Speaker 1: I saw it. I liked some aspects of like the style,
11:27
Speaker 1: but overall again I was like, yeah, where where did
11:30
Speaker 1: this come from? And I feel like they didn't give
11:34
Speaker 1: I could have told you, I think when we were texting,
11:36
Speaker 1: when we first we both first saw it separately, I
11:40
Speaker 1: couldn't have told you for sure she died, and like
11:43
Speaker 1: she should have had all her questions. It should have
11:48
Speaker 1: been a bigger deal. Huh. She just no, she's she's
11:53
Speaker 1: not here. Nope, that's all he says. That's all he says.
11:56
Speaker 1: I find it so fascinating that this is the route
11:59
Speaker 1: they had to tell Ache and again camping the magic
12:02
Speaker 1: of editing, um time or whatever, because it's still a
12:05
Speaker 1: long movie that it seems so unnecessary. But the parental
12:10
Speaker 1: bonding that we see between Doctor Strange and America as
12:14
Speaker 1: wells like, okay, he gets the redemptive arc, and she's
12:17
Speaker 1: correct like in saying why do you get to do
12:20
Speaker 1: these things? And both those like you changed, you change reality,
12:25
Speaker 1: You didn't have to face any consequences. Oh you did
12:27
Speaker 1: the dark hold You're okay? How because is it because
12:30
Speaker 1: you're a man with good intentions that you were able
12:33
Speaker 1: to which, according to what we saw from one division.
12:38
Speaker 1: She got the dark hold with good intentions taking away
12:40
Speaker 1: from Agatha because Agatha had so much more like evil intentions.
12:45
Speaker 1: That just seems kind of odd. Yes it is, and
12:51
Speaker 1: that was something that definitely stuck out to me and
12:53
Speaker 1: a lot of people about it seems with women in
13:00
Speaker 1: Marvel Universe, if you get too much power, you have
13:05
Speaker 1: to go or you have to have some and or
13:10
Speaker 1: you have to have some hang up around children, right, which,
13:14
Speaker 1: by the way, can we talk about because even if
13:17
Speaker 1: I'm trying to excuse, like are they do they have
13:19
Speaker 1: a propensity to be more evil. Yeah, I'm trying to
13:23
Speaker 1: really think deep on this because she has a lot
13:26
Speaker 1: of vengeance in our hearts and that's what she started with,
13:28
Speaker 1: was a lot love for our family, but vengeance in
13:30
Speaker 1: our heart because you know, all her family and her
13:32
Speaker 1: home was destroyed. We know that's the beginning of Wanda.
13:36
Speaker 1: But Dr Strange wasn't asked. It was all about himself
13:39
Speaker 1: and was selfish as hell. But yeah, he's redeemed, yes, yes,
13:44
Speaker 1: And this comes back to conversations We've had a lot
13:47
Speaker 1: around how much more willing we are to forgive male characters,
13:54
Speaker 1: but also like as creators, I think give male characters
13:57
Speaker 1: those arcs because she is essentially been stuck in a
14:04
Speaker 1: cycle of trauma since we've known her. UM, she has
14:09
Speaker 1: been traumatized and manipulated and used and punished by the Avengers.
14:16
Speaker 1: We're supposed to be her teammates. But a lot of
14:18
Speaker 1: them were like, no, will imprison you. And this is
14:23
Speaker 1: another instance where like it seems no one thought to
14:26
Speaker 1: reach out to her, check in on her, or like
14:30
Speaker 1: maybe give her some kinda we can talk this through,
14:35
Speaker 1: Like maybe you couldn't have. But no one before it
14:38
Speaker 1: reached to this point has talked. They didn't come to
14:43
Speaker 1: her until after they needed her right exactly exactly. Uh.
14:52
Speaker 1: And so I did as I wanted to. I did
14:56
Speaker 1: research this, and I found so many articles about how
15:00
Speaker 1: it did not bow and become a feminist propaganda piece,
15:03
Speaker 1: which I thought was interesting. One of them I think
15:06
Speaker 1: was satirical, but I couldn't tell, Like maybe they were saying,
15:09
Speaker 1: Hollywood feminist is not a good feminist. I don't know,
15:13
Speaker 1: But anyway, I saw a lot of that. UM. And
15:16
Speaker 1: in case you didn't, if you forgot or you missed it,
15:19
Speaker 1: the trailers advertised the movie in a very different way. Um.
15:22
Speaker 1: It was advertised as a continuation of both Wanda and
15:26
Speaker 1: Doctor Stranger's stories, but instead want to regressed and Doctor
15:31
Speaker 1: Strange progressed as a character and a parent. I mean,
15:35
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be surprised if they brought her back, but
15:37
Speaker 1: we're left to believe she's just right and I know,
15:41
Speaker 1: and we'll probably talk about it a little bit. Like
15:43
Speaker 1: her reaction to Pete. Fans reaction was like, no, no,
15:46
Speaker 1: this is exactly what I wanted. This is what was
15:48
Speaker 1: supposed to happen. I don't know what's that a contract ended?
15:51
Speaker 1: Did they not negotiate? She has a Some people think
15:56
Speaker 1: it's like a fake or like some way to mislead people,
15:59
Speaker 1: but she has a seven year contract with the m
16:00
Speaker 1: C you and Disney from here. Uh, but they don't
16:04
Speaker 1: know if like maybe that was just a false dreamer
16:06
Speaker 1: that was planted to mislead us. I know, I did
16:13
Speaker 1: think I want to include this. So this is from
16:15
Speaker 1: Collider where they were commenting on the women in this movie,
16:18
Speaker 1: and they wrote the characterization of those women, however, is
16:21
Speaker 1: not much of a triumph. They fall into the categories
16:24
Speaker 1: of the damsel in distress, the evil which in the
16:26
Speaker 1: love interest, which I thought was very interesting, and we're
16:29
Speaker 1: going to go through each of those, but definitely one
16:32
Speaker 1: of the biggest themes in this movie was motherhood. It
16:37
Speaker 1: came out on Mother's Day weekend Multiverse of Madness stance
16:41
Speaker 1: for Mom. I don't know if they did it on purpose,
16:43
Speaker 1: but I think that they did. Uh. And this got
16:47
Speaker 1: me thinking of Sad Murder Mom after we did our
16:51
Speaker 1: Sad Murder Dad episode and we talked about that. In
16:54
Speaker 1: that episode of like Sad Murder Dad, I feel like
16:57
Speaker 1: gets so much credit for Bud. He's trying and he
17:00
Speaker 1: cares so much. Sad Murder Mom were like she's terrible
17:04
Speaker 1: and she has to go well. Like the entire thing
17:08
Speaker 1: with Sad Murder Dad is typically like we're bringing I
17:11
Speaker 1: want to bring him back in. I want to tell
17:12
Speaker 1: him I'm sorry. I'm going to save them. But this
17:15
Speaker 1: whole movie was like I'm gonna kill myself essentially my
17:19
Speaker 1: own character, and I don't care who else dies to
17:23
Speaker 1: get to the children. So much different than like I'm
17:25
Speaker 1: protecting the children. It's not because she's protecting those because
17:27
Speaker 1: she wants them. Two different storylines. Yeah, yeah, and that's
17:33
Speaker 1: kind of the heartbreaking thing. Um for me is Sam
17:40
Speaker 1: Rainy apparently didn't watch one definition. Uh he watched, he said,
17:47
Speaker 1: key moments. That makes me angry. Why did he get that?
17:52
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not trying to lay. I'm not a
17:54
Speaker 1: gatekeeper and I don't I don't even have that much invested.
17:56
Speaker 1: But like, at the very least, if you're gonna tell
17:58
Speaker 1: her story nor story right because WandaVision heard that whole
18:03
Speaker 1: thing was her dealing with trauma, realizing she had done
18:10
Speaker 1: wrong and accepting that and wanting to fix that, like
18:15
Speaker 1: not excusing her actions but recognizing them and wanting That's
18:19
Speaker 1: why she was isolating herself. She was punishing her for that. Right, So,
18:23
Speaker 1: like the fact that he didn't want did all of that?
18:27
Speaker 1: He did? He undid all of that is scene. Yes,
18:30
Speaker 1: he undid all of it, and and it feels like
18:33
Speaker 1: just so he could tell a horror story, a very
18:37
Speaker 1: one dimensional horror story about a mother who has completely
18:44
Speaker 1: lost her mind, Like, oh, um, I have some quotes
18:49
Speaker 1: about that. I'm going to get to and I definitely
18:52
Speaker 1: have like I'm not going to do it, but a
18:53
Speaker 1: drinking game to every time Wanda says I'm a mother,
18:57
Speaker 1: you really wasted, she says it a lot um. I
19:02
Speaker 1: also learned about the term woo madness, which I'd never heard.
19:05
Speaker 1: So as as we mentioned earlier, they absolutely never really
19:09
Speaker 1: explained the Dark Holds impact on Wanda were to presume
19:14
Speaker 1: that a lot of her actions are through the Dark Hold,
19:16
Speaker 1: but it doesn't explain it, so we don't know, um,
19:19
Speaker 1: and so a lot of these choices were left to
19:22
Speaker 1: wonder if it was her are the Dark Hold again?
19:25
Speaker 1: She She's been painted as a villain before, but almost
19:27
Speaker 1: always it came from a sympathetic place, like we could
19:30
Speaker 1: see why she made her choices, it came from a
19:32
Speaker 1: place of pain. Um. A lot of people wrote about
19:36
Speaker 1: like able is m and mental health around this character,
19:40
Speaker 1: that she was essentially painted as a hysterical woman, Like
19:44
Speaker 1: when she says this is me being rational, whereas Dr
19:47
Speaker 1: Strange is very rational, it's like, oh see, she's super
19:50
Speaker 1: emotional and he can make logical decisions, very gendered breakdown. Okay,
19:59
Speaker 1: he does everything she does, but in opposition and becomes
20:02
Speaker 1: a hero. Yep uh. And and she did in the comics,
20:07
Speaker 1: she did some allah Jean Gray. She is the most
20:10
Speaker 1: powerful Avenger. But it's wildly agreed that her storyline, which
20:15
Speaker 1: I think is called House of m that this one's
20:17
Speaker 1: based on was pretty problematic. Uh, like most people think that,
20:21
Speaker 1: and they went for it anyway. Again, I knew this
20:25
Speaker 1: was cannon like according to what was happening in the comics.
20:30
Speaker 1: But again it's the same level of like, yeah, but
20:32
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean it's not bad, right, right, we can
20:38
Speaker 1: move on from some story and they have repeatedly yes, yes,
20:45
Speaker 1: something else I learned and thinking about Jean Gray, this
20:48
Speaker 1: was another like example where there's this powerful women can't
20:52
Speaker 1: handle it idea, like they can't handle the power, so
20:55
Speaker 1: they just kill people. Um. There's a whole trope of
21:00
Speaker 1: about it called magical women who are just too powerful
21:02
Speaker 1: for their own good, And basically that's you know, women
21:05
Speaker 1: can't be trusted, so they had to be kept in
21:07
Speaker 1: their place like they always have to be, you know,
21:12
Speaker 1: imprisoned in the Avengers complex or whatever it is. And
21:15
Speaker 1: then when she breaks out of that, she can't handle
21:19
Speaker 1: it and the men have to come in and be like, calm,
21:22
Speaker 1: stop stop it. Wanda yeo, yep, yep. Um. Here's a
21:28
Speaker 1: quote from Junkie. Uh, we have Wanda who has gone
21:32
Speaker 1: full blown evil scarlet witch and spent the entire movie
21:35
Speaker 1: desperately trying to get into the universe where she is
21:38
Speaker 1: a suburban housewife with two loud sons, because in the end,
21:41
Speaker 1: that's all women really want, is it not. So this
21:44
Speaker 1: was something that came up and a lot of stuff
21:45
Speaker 1: I was reading where people were making the point, Yes,
21:51
Speaker 1: if you want to be you know, if that's that's
21:56
Speaker 1: that's your dream, If you want to be the housewife,
21:58
Speaker 1: if you want to have the kids, whatever, that's fine.
22:00
Speaker 1: But it seems like all of the men are like,
22:04
Speaker 1: I want to rule the world or I want to
22:07
Speaker 1: like these big, huge things, and the women are always
22:10
Speaker 1: kind of relegated to this like home sphere of motherhood
22:15
Speaker 1: and children and let the the men do that other
22:20
Speaker 1: surer real stuff. Right, Well, here's the question I have,
22:24
Speaker 1: where is vision? Because yes, she loves her children, but
22:29
Speaker 1: the beginning and the overall was about vision and the
22:34
Speaker 1: children came into play as like okay, it happened, but
22:38
Speaker 1: we don't even hear the mention as like where was
22:41
Speaker 1: he for the fantasy of being with the kids, Like
22:44
Speaker 1: that wasn't her story in one of Vision. Yes, she
22:47
Speaker 1: loved the boys and she missed them, but her story
22:49
Speaker 1: was all of them as a family. That was her goal. Yeah,
22:54
Speaker 1: I was confused. I kept asking that. I was like,
22:56
Speaker 1: this doesn't fit. No, I don't know. Again, they've tried
23:01
Speaker 1: so hard and making her so evil. Yeah, and she
23:05
Speaker 1: had to be the only one taking responsibility and that evil.
23:08
Speaker 1: It almost like she couldn't have a partner in this. Yeah,
23:13
Speaker 1: it had to just be her because if he was around,
23:16
Speaker 1: presumably they would have either teamed up or he would
23:19
Speaker 1: have tried to stop her, or she would have tried
23:22
Speaker 1: to stop him. Who knows. You can't have two male heroes.
23:26
Speaker 1: No problematic, It doesn't fit, and it don't sign to me.
23:32
Speaker 1: It doesn't. I mean, there's certainly I can tell Phase
23:37
Speaker 1: four of the im CU is going through some growing pains.
23:40
Speaker 1: It is vision coming back, because they made it seem
23:42
Speaker 1: like one in one division, there's a new vision, Yes,
23:45
Speaker 1: white vision. Yes, um, I would assume. But I did
23:50
Speaker 1: read one of the articles I was reading about this.
23:52
Speaker 1: People were speculating that Paul Bettany hasn't signed another contract
23:58
Speaker 1: and that's why he wasn't there. But I don't care, okay,
24:02
Speaker 1: And I know a lot of that has like that
24:04
Speaker 1: type of depiction. But I just wondered because, yeah, one
24:07
Speaker 1: of the things like if you want her happy ending,
24:10
Speaker 1: this is not her happy ending. No oh no, I
24:16
Speaker 1: do have some more quotes I want to read. So
24:20
Speaker 1: this one is from Vulture. Dreams are windows into the
24:23
Speaker 1: lives of our multi versus cells, and for Wanda, her
24:26
Speaker 1: dreams involves being a suburban housewife without vision or any
24:30
Speaker 1: inkling of b Wanda's desires beyond her children. This dream
24:33
Speaker 1: comes across as even more claustrophobic. Apparently, Wanda, an immensely
24:38
Speaker 1: powerful witch who can bend reality, only aspires to be
24:41
Speaker 1: a mom. It's her single devouring need, and when it's
24:44
Speaker 1: not met, she loses her mind, leading to death and
24:47
Speaker 1: destruction for everyone around her. I feel like they agree
24:51
Speaker 1: with me. I think. So that's what I was like.
24:54
Speaker 1: Let's read this one. Um oh and also this one
24:57
Speaker 1: I like. Okay. Wanda's fate reminds me of de naar
25:00
Speaker 1: Assist Tagarians in the final season of Game of Thrones.
25:02
Speaker 1: Both stories depict power corrupting once beloved female characters, who
25:06
Speaker 1: are then demonized and ultimately disposed of. It's two. Why
25:11
Speaker 1: are we still being asked to see powerful men as
25:13
Speaker 1: heroes and powerful women as scary? Why are female characters
25:16
Speaker 1: only likable when they're struggling and weak. The plot arc
25:19
Speaker 1: of women becoming psychotic unable to control their own emotions
25:23
Speaker 1: serves the same energy of male pundits who frequently warn
25:26
Speaker 1: us that if we have a woman president, she'll knook
25:29
Speaker 1: the whole world, or she has a bad day or
25:31
Speaker 1: is on her period. Both are female characters and massive
25:34
Speaker 1: blockbuster fantasy stories who are embraced as likable, sympathetic protagonist
25:38
Speaker 1: when they're powerless or struggling, but how they're presented to
25:42
Speaker 1: audiences changes entirely. When they do obtain power. They become
25:46
Speaker 1: the villains, terrifying and ruthless in her almost immediately unceremoniously
25:51
Speaker 1: tossed aside as a result. And that's from Jezebel, which
25:55
Speaker 1: very good quote. Yeah, I mean I feel like it.
26:00
Speaker 1: It's true. It's the thing we keep talking about where
26:03
Speaker 1: we allow, and by we, I mean as of society
26:06
Speaker 1: and particularly creators allow women. You can come to this point,
26:11
Speaker 1: but only if you played by our rules. And then
26:13
Speaker 1: once you break those rules, once you become more powerful
26:15
Speaker 1: than doctor Strange, you've got to go. You can't, you
26:20
Speaker 1: can no longer exist, And just reducing them into only
26:29
Speaker 1: caring about motherhood and children, when like, again, if that's
26:35
Speaker 1: if that's with your character and it makes sense, fine,
26:40
Speaker 1: but it becomes like, oh, she's lost her mind, because
26:42
Speaker 1: if it becomes like female hysteria, it becomes that trope
26:46
Speaker 1: of oh she just wants kids. Now she's killing everybody.
26:53
Speaker 1: And I do feel like they try to address this
26:55
Speaker 1: in the movie when Wanda's like, why is it okay? Yeah,
26:58
Speaker 1: that you can break the rule was dr strange and
27:00
Speaker 1: not me, But they do it in kind of a
27:03
Speaker 1: strange way because she's so callous, she's bitter. She's bitter,
27:08
Speaker 1: and you don't root her. They give you like no
27:10
Speaker 1: reason immediately to root for her, like they all of
27:14
Speaker 1: that character development they did is just like nope, she's different,
27:20
Speaker 1: and then I don't know where she comes and kills
27:22
Speaker 1: Dennis the people when that the entirety of her makeup
27:26
Speaker 1: in the films has been how she grieves loss of
27:30
Speaker 1: life in general, Like that's how she comes to stop
27:33
Speaker 1: to work with Avengers because she sees the destruction happening
27:38
Speaker 1: around her community and so she's like, oh my god,
27:40
Speaker 1: I can't do this same way as how Westview ended,
27:44
Speaker 1: because she realized she was physically hurting people, so she
27:46
Speaker 1: had to stop. And yet it doesn't matter now, right right,
27:53
Speaker 1: And it's so quick, it's so quick. Yeah, and it's
27:57
Speaker 1: really without explanation, because again, if you haven't seen One Division,
27:59
Speaker 1: if you haven't even had that basic that that basis,
28:02
Speaker 1: you'd be like, where did these kids come from? Who
28:05
Speaker 1: are they? Yes? Yes? Uh? And as you mentioned earlier,
28:11
Speaker 1: I kind of chafed at oh, doctor Strange, can you
28:15
Speaker 1: use the dark Old? And he's fine, she can't like,
28:20
Speaker 1: get out, get out of here. Um. And by the way,
28:25
Speaker 1: the creator of WandaVision, Jacques Schaefer, once said of the show,
28:28
Speaker 1: it was extremely important to me that we not do
28:30
Speaker 1: the lazy thing of having a superpowered lady who can't
28:33
Speaker 1: handle her powers and goes crazy. It was being filmed
28:36
Speaker 1: when One Division was being filmed, though, so that's interesting. Uh.
28:40
Speaker 1: And here's a quote from the conversation. Wanda Maximov hasn't
28:44
Speaker 1: been given much positive character development. In contrast to Marvel's
28:47
Speaker 1: notorious villains, Wanda has no grand design, no desire to
28:50
Speaker 1: rule or destroy humanity. Her goal is limited to her
28:53
Speaker 1: self created picture of domestic happiness. She fights through unite
28:57
Speaker 1: with her two sons. Such treatment as an ill stration
29:00
Speaker 1: of the separate spheres sexist doctrine to men, the world
29:04
Speaker 1: is a stage, while women must limit themselves to the
29:06
Speaker 1: private sanctum of the house. But more problematic is the
29:09
Speaker 1: representation of one particular aspect of Banda's character, her anger
29:14
Speaker 1: in the film references to mythological and popular cultural figures
29:17
Speaker 1: a female anger are allusions to stereotypical expectations associated with
29:22
Speaker 1: women's conduct, and this is where the Medusa conversation opened
29:28
Speaker 1: up about basically women who have been really done wrong,
29:34
Speaker 1: and then when they fight back, their anger is seen
29:37
Speaker 1: as either ridiculous are just clearly written by men who
29:42
Speaker 1: want them to be killed off. Like see she's hysterical,
29:47
Speaker 1: Like maybe she was done wrong, but she is also
29:50
Speaker 1: bad uh and yeah she h Wanda and this movie
29:55
Speaker 1: was willing to kill other versions of herself, um, other children,
30:00
Speaker 1: anyone who'd gotten her way very violently, um, which is
30:05
Speaker 1: not good traits for someone you want to root for. Also,
30:12
Speaker 1: people wrote about America, who I want to do? Uh,
30:15
Speaker 1: I'm planning of feminist women around the world. On She's
30:19
Speaker 1: frequently displayed as the damsel of distress. Um. Here's a
30:24
Speaker 1: quote from The Daily Dot. She's wide eyed and vulnerable,
30:27
Speaker 1: a disneyfied characterization choice that also de sexualizes her comic
30:31
Speaker 1: book role. The m C. You took a cool, independent,
30:34
Speaker 1: queer Latina superhero and standed down all the hard edges
30:37
Speaker 1: that made her interesting. So yeah, in the comic book,
30:41
Speaker 1: she's one of the first young Avengers, which I think
30:43
Speaker 1: they're setting up because we've already talked about a bunch
30:45
Speaker 1: of them in these and the actor, Like everybody praised
30:48
Speaker 1: the actor, she would be great, but doesn't connect with
30:53
Speaker 1: what she is in the comics, right, Okay, Yeah, I
30:58
Speaker 1: don't know much about the comics, but yeah, she hard
31:00
Speaker 1: character was interesting. I guess her name was made. When
31:04
Speaker 1: when was she created? I think, Okay, okay, that says
31:09
Speaker 1: to me a lot like I'm sad for her name,
31:16
Speaker 1: but I know that that's a different thing. But yeah,
31:19
Speaker 1: I found it interesting because she is she's just being
31:21
Speaker 1: tossed about everywhere, constantly needing to be rescued, always losing people.
31:27
Speaker 1: Very orphan mentality. Yeah, and I mean she gets her
31:30
Speaker 1: moment at the end, but it's at the very end, right,
31:33
Speaker 1: of course, a lot of coaxing, which again kind of
31:37
Speaker 1: reminds me of younger Wanda when she has to be
31:40
Speaker 1: taught coaxed by Captain America and Hawkeye, very much like
31:46
Speaker 1: a lot of people wrote about that. They're like, it's
31:47
Speaker 1: always kind of there the male story, and they the
31:52
Speaker 1: women in it are like given this little bit where okay,
31:59
Speaker 1: you hero worship me, yes, yes, yes. There is also
32:05
Speaker 1: the scene that Samantha and I texted about a lot
32:09
Speaker 1: when she kills the Illuminati the other Avengers Wanda does,
32:13
Speaker 1: which was pretty graphic intense. It was like I kept
32:18
Speaker 1: thinking of like that version of Earth, like just because
32:20
Speaker 1: it's not our version doesn't mean that they're not going
32:22
Speaker 1: to suffer because you kill all of their avengers. Um.
32:26
Speaker 1: And then yeah, her other self, as you pointed out,
32:29
Speaker 1: the other wand to apparently is powerless in this world
32:34
Speaker 1: or she doesn't have that much power, or she doesn't
32:37
Speaker 1: use it because she's happy, and it's that kind of odd.
32:42
Speaker 1: She doesn't even try to fight. That's the thing is,
32:44
Speaker 1: like she doesn't even care that she killed people. She's
32:48
Speaker 1: my voice and runs away. Kind of odd moment of
32:51
Speaker 1: like I get it, you want to protect your boys,
32:53
Speaker 1: but you also just covered in blood and no, Okay,
33:00
Speaker 1: it definitely felt like it was saying, again, women can
33:04
Speaker 1: anidal you choose one or the other. You can't add
33:06
Speaker 1: this power and your happy life. You have to pick one.
33:08
Speaker 1: And if you have kids, you definitely don't care about
33:11
Speaker 1: other people, right, And I know you pointed this out,
33:14
Speaker 1: but people were tweeting about it afterwards about what is
33:19
Speaker 1: going on with Marvel and they're hanging up on motherhood
33:23
Speaker 1: and punishing women, whether it's mothers or not mothers. Because
33:27
Speaker 1: we have Black Widow an age of Ultron, she has
33:30
Speaker 1: her storyline of she was sterilized against her will and
33:35
Speaker 1: so she feels she is a monster because of it.
33:38
Speaker 1: She also feels like she's of less value and less worth.
33:41
Speaker 1: I found that really disgusting. Yeah yeah, because it kind
33:48
Speaker 1: of again came out of nowhere, reducing her again to
33:53
Speaker 1: her womb, her body, right, and that way she can
33:57
Speaker 1: only be matched. But who another monster the Hulk right right?
34:03
Speaker 1: Like that was a pretty obviously traumatizing experience. But to
34:08
Speaker 1: frame it in a way where she's like, oh, I'm
34:10
Speaker 1: a monster, I care how kids. No, I'm very eager
34:30
Speaker 1: to come back and talk about Jane Foster. But you
34:32
Speaker 1: haven't seen the new I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah,
34:35
Speaker 1: I can't tell you, but I think we should come
34:37
Speaker 1: back and talk about it, because that's him playing this
34:40
Speaker 1: conversation as well. Certainly, the death of Scarlett Witch, which
34:46
Speaker 1: was so quick and confusing, like I wasn't even sure
34:48
Speaker 1: she had died. Um, is a trend in Marvel movies
34:54
Speaker 1: where we're seeing like the same with Black Widow. She
34:56
Speaker 1: might have gotten like a more dramatic send off, but essentially, yeah, exactly.
35:04
Speaker 1: An iron Man meanwhile gets the whole like final thing,
35:09
Speaker 1: final funeral of these movies. Okay, cool, great. Here's a
35:17
Speaker 1: quote from Pace magazine. It's kind of a long one,
35:20
Speaker 1: but stick with me because I think it's good. Um.
35:23
Speaker 1: Because while Marvel Studios is certainly eager enough to out
35:26
Speaker 1: its feminist bona fides by pointing to Captain Marvel or
35:29
Speaker 1: Black Widow, the franchise still waited for twenty films to
35:32
Speaker 1: feature a female lead, and Carol Danvers Free Larson and
35:36
Speaker 1: sat on a Natasha Romanov Scarlett Johansson solo, adding for
35:39
Speaker 1: so long the character died first, essentially rendering the project
35:43
Speaker 1: useless for for any larger storytelling purpose. To be fair,
35:47
Speaker 1: want to Maximov certainly isn't the only woman the m
35:50
Speaker 1: c U has done dirty in recent years. The Falcon
35:52
Speaker 1: and the Winter Soldier turned to all American good girl
35:55
Speaker 1: and Peggy Carter's niece Sharon Carter into the leader of
35:58
Speaker 1: an international criminals send again. Loki Judge Sylvie a female
36:02
Speaker 1: variant of the God of Mischief, much more hartily than
36:05
Speaker 1: any of the male versions of the character, and they're
36:08
Speaker 1: all literally the same person. Laura Barton was apparently once
36:12
Speaker 1: a kick ass Shield agent, but her primary role in
36:14
Speaker 1: Hawkeye is to serve as a little more than Clint's
36:17
Speaker 1: emotional sounding board. After all, Wanda did the impossible thing
36:21
Speaker 1: that was asked of her by killing Vision. She undid
36:23
Speaker 1: Westview by her own choice, I might add, and said
36:26
Speaker 1: goodbye to him all over again. She's still suffering for
36:29
Speaker 1: all those things. But Strange gave Thanos the Timestone and
36:32
Speaker 1: stole five years from half of humanity in the process,
36:35
Speaker 1: all before literally ripping reality apart a second time as
36:38
Speaker 1: a favor to a teenager. He doesn't even like that much.
36:41
Speaker 1: The only consequence he's had to face is that one
36:44
Speaker 1: man was rude to him at a public event one time.
36:48
Speaker 1: Clint Barton spent five years of The Blips straight up
36:51
Speaker 1: murdering people in the name of some nebulous avengeance and
36:54
Speaker 1: not only gets immediately welcome back into the Avengers fold,
36:57
Speaker 1: but rewarded with his own series that can hardly even
37:00
Speaker 1: be bothered to say that what he did as Rounan
37:03
Speaker 1: was even bad. These things are not the same, agreed,
37:08
Speaker 1: Agreed again, a lot of this doesn't make sense. Once again,
37:13
Speaker 1: talking about Bucky. Bucky goes into his like solace and
37:16
Speaker 1: kind of torments himself, but everybody forgives him. He killed
37:21
Speaker 1: Tony's parents. They had one half a series about that,
37:24
Speaker 1: and everything was fine, one half one half of a
37:27
Speaker 1: movie about that, and then everything was just fine. They're
37:31
Speaker 1: very much again willing to give these male characters a
37:33
Speaker 1: lot more room for growth, for forgiveness then we are
37:39
Speaker 1: for women, where apparently it's just you get too powerful
37:43
Speaker 1: when you die, and that's it every time, every time.
37:46
Speaker 1: We don't even know. Maybe there'll be some hope in
37:49
Speaker 1: the New Black Panther. Maybe cross your fingers have the
37:54
Speaker 1: same thor so. I don't know yet, but yeah, all
37:57
Speaker 1: of these like we finally get some new female women
38:02
Speaker 1: representation in the New universe and they immediately die, which,
38:07
Speaker 1: by the way, Captain Marvel was supposed to be able
38:09
Speaker 1: to hold her own against Wanda. So I'm a little
38:11
Speaker 1: confused on how easily she died. I know she was
38:13
Speaker 1: at least the last to die, but still out well
38:18
Speaker 1: second to last, I guess, yeah, yeah, uh. And if
38:22
Speaker 1: you're confused with Captain Marvel and the other Earth, yes, yeah,
38:27
Speaker 1: because Captain Marvel and Scarlett Witch are the most powerful,
38:31
Speaker 1: supposed to be the most powerful, right she almost had
38:36
Speaker 1: Danos more so than one did it, although she could have, Yeah,
38:41
Speaker 1: she could. If they've done there together, God have been over.
38:46
Speaker 1: But all that to say is I don't understand how
38:47
Speaker 1: easily that she died like she was crushed by statue.
38:50
Speaker 1: I don't think that's supposed to kill her. Agreed, Agreed,
38:55
Speaker 1: And then I did want to briefly touch on Christine.
38:59
Speaker 1: You reached on my Adams is um doctor Stranger's girlfriend
39:03
Speaker 1: for lack of a better word, and eight three eight
39:05
Speaker 1: she's a scientist who's working with Illuminati, and people wrote
39:08
Speaker 1: about her like she had it feels like just crumbs though,
39:15
Speaker 1: but she had a bigger storyline perhaps, but they still
39:19
Speaker 1: turned her into a possession at the end the other
39:21
Speaker 1: doctor Strangers like give me Christine. Also she was a
39:26
Speaker 1: glorified assistant I guess with her own laps. Yes. And
39:30
Speaker 1: also he bothered her our doctor Strange bothered her at
39:33
Speaker 1: her wedding about why they weren't together anymore, like back
39:37
Speaker 1: up man. That sounds like a dude, though to be fair,
39:41
Speaker 1: it does sound like a person dude. And and Marvel
39:47
Speaker 1: definitely has a history of this, so does a lot
39:49
Speaker 1: of I mean, the Damsel in distress, the like girl friend.
39:55
Speaker 1: Love interest is not new and it's not unique to
39:58
Speaker 1: Marvel in any any sense, but it is certainly something
40:01
Speaker 1: I've been like, you have to make the woman a
40:04
Speaker 1: love interest in some way. Every time it didn't make sense.
40:08
Speaker 1: I still don't get the Hulkan call it, I mean
40:11
Speaker 1: the Hulkan Black Widow like that. They tried so hard
40:14
Speaker 1: with this that was like even Black Widow and Captain
40:17
Speaker 1: America would have made more sense than The Hulk. But okay, well, yeah,
40:22
Speaker 1: it was frustrating because you could tell and like every
40:24
Speaker 1: other movie they were trying to romantic interest for her.
40:26
Speaker 1: They were maybe this one will work and you don't
40:29
Speaker 1: need to do it at all. She could have just
40:32
Speaker 1: been happy. I would have rather seen her and Yelena's
40:35
Speaker 1: relationship me too. And I really liked like her and
40:38
Speaker 1: Captain America as platonic friends. But you could tell they
40:41
Speaker 1: were trying to suggest maybe maybe, but they could have
40:45
Speaker 1: just been platonic friends, and that was great. It was good,
40:48
Speaker 1: Like in Civil War. It was good. And then certainly
40:55
Speaker 1: there was a theme throughout this of the woman who
40:58
Speaker 1: is responsible for the euro's actions, like he becomes violent
41:02
Speaker 1: because of her, which is alsome not unique to Marvel,
41:05
Speaker 1: but um, if you haven't seen the what if episode
41:09
Speaker 1: with Doctor Strange, this is the whole theme where he
41:12
Speaker 1: like ruins the world to Sage Christine, and it was
41:16
Speaker 1: you could see it in this as well, where just
41:21
Speaker 1: these threads of like men being violent in the name
41:28
Speaker 1: of women who probably don't want them to do that anyway,
41:32
Speaker 1: but they feel good, they feel justified in it because
41:34
Speaker 1: it's for a woman. It's like the nine be nine
41:38
Speaker 1: sexism anyway. I did also want to mention, very briefly,
41:46
Speaker 1: there was the same sex causs in it. It was
41:47
Speaker 1: very brief, but it caused a huge uproar and it
41:51
Speaker 1: almost got removed, and in some markets that did get removed. Uh,
41:57
Speaker 1: so that's still that's still a thing as well, America
42:01
Speaker 1: between the parents, America's parents. Um, there's it's sure. I
42:05
Speaker 1: mean it's super sure. Yeah, they barely. I was like,
42:08
Speaker 1: I don't I think you'll blame miss it. But it
42:10
Speaker 1: cost a huge up for America is a lesbian in
42:14
Speaker 1: the comics, and as I said, I'm gonna I'm planning
42:16
Speaker 1: on returning to her for a future Women around the World,
42:19
Speaker 1: fictional women around the World. But I just wanted to
42:21
Speaker 1: mention it. Uh. But yeah, I think this is a
42:25
Speaker 1: successful I too Spoiled Saturdays, and I again, there's so
42:31
Speaker 1: much we could return to Because people wrote about this
42:34
Speaker 1: as they should, it didn't make sense and it says
42:38
Speaker 1: a lot for a multibillion dollar franchise. Why why why? Yes,
42:45
Speaker 1: Well continue to ask that question, uh in future episodes
42:49
Speaker 1: and to ourselves when we're trying to sleep at night.
42:53
Speaker 1: In the meantime, If there is a movie or TV
42:56
Speaker 1: show you would like for us to cover and Spoiled Saturdays,
43:00
Speaker 1: please let us know. You can email us at stuffide
43:02
Speaker 1: your mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You can
43:04
Speaker 1: find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or if
43:07
Speaker 1: you havent stuff I Never told you. Thanks as always
43:09
Speaker 1: to our super producer Christina, Thank you, and thanks to
43:12
Speaker 1: you for listening. Stuff whe Never told you the production
43:14
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