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25 Episodes - A Look Back! · Parsing the Truth: One Byte at a Time

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Join former FBI Senior Forensic Examiners Becky Passmore and
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Stacey Eldridge as they dig into the world of digital forensics
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one bite at a time. Now leading their own consulting
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firms and educating the next generation of cyber sleuths,
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these badass babes of digital forensics bring sharp insight,
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real world case experience, and a dose of humor to the bits and
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bites that filled today's investigations.
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From deep dives into business e-mail compromise and ransomware
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attacks, Becky's specialty to cracking the complexities of
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iPhone forensics, Stacy's obsession, this podcast delivers
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insider knowledge for professionals, students, and
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true crime techies alike. If you've ever wondered what
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really happens when the digital trail is all that's left, TuneIn
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and start parsing the truth. Welcome to Parsing the Truth One
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bite at a time. We are the digital forensic
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podcast that gets a little true crime ish and a little techie
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ish. And we've been going back in
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time and we've been talking about current cases and all
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sorts of things. Now here's a fun fact.
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This is episode #26 well, let me do this right, 26.
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So Becky, we are halfway through the year 26 podcast episodes.
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What do you think? All I can say is I love it.
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I love the time we get to spend on talking about cases, on
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talking about different crimes, on talking about how evidence
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has been. From the beginning to now and I
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just look forward to all of our episodes, all of our episodes,
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right. And getting back together each
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week, right. Yeah.
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And this format looks a little different because we're together
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here live in person. We are poolside, lovely palm
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trees and cool for everybody to enjoy behind us.
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And why are we together right now, Becky?
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Because we spent the week at the Oxygen Forensic Conference where
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we actually have a episode coming to you where we presented
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it live. Yep.
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And then we've spent the rest of the week working on different
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activity and information and doing things and visiting
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people. So yeah, together.
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And it's so funny because we had episode 23 drop on October 23rd.
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That's right. And then episode 25 is live at
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the Oxygen Forensics Conference where we were talking about
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logic and legacy. That's right in the past 20,
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five years and it's episode 25 and now here we are 26 halfway
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through the year. That's right.
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But we what we wanted to do was look back on some of the
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episodes that we've already talked about and we are counting
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up. And I remarked, I was like.
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Wow, we did 6 episodes on Casey Anthony.
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I know there was a lot to unpack there.
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There was a lot. And that was so much fun too,
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because we got to meet and interview and discuss with so
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many different. Examiners, we got to watch well
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some of the recordings, read up on the cases.
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We got to meet John Bradley here in person.
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We emailed back and forth to get him on the show and then we did
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the podcast episode with him and then we talked with him after
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the podcast, after he found some insider knowledge from the
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Orange County Sheriff's Office. And then he was also here at the
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oxygen conference as well. So we met him live and in person
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down here in Orlando. So that was fun, that was fun,
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that was fun. So.
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So, so I feel like we've grown with this podcast, we've
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expanded our network and our knowledge of other forensic
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experts that are out there doing this and they're so excited and
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willing to share their cases and their experience.
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And not only are we looking back, but we're looking forward
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because we have so many other cases and experts that we're
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going to have on our show in the next 26 more episodes.
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Right, right. And I think it's interesting
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because as people have found out that we have this podcast and we
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thank everybody who's listened and who has shared it, you're
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helping us get the word out. But every time we run into
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someone, they find out we have a digital forensics podcast.
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They're like, man, have I got a case for you?
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Have I got a story for you? Every forensic examiner we run
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into has at least that one case that we're like something
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unbelievable. All happens right And I I would
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say we have 26 more episodes already ready to start recording
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with with our experts and with our our friends, our our
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network. So if you have something and you
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want to share it, you want to be a part of it, reach out to us.
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We're. Always real ready to hear more.
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Yeah. And apparently the highway is
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right behind us. So hopefully that doesn't come
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out too, too loud on the recording for you.
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But so we started off with B KB, TK as the first sort of case we
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did. We had some introductory
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episodes and the thing I find amazing about BTK is there's a
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lot of right information out there and there's a lot of wrong
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information out there, which is why we did the fact versus
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fiction. And some of that comes from like
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there's the book that we use that's right and there was wrong
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information in that. And then luckily Randy Stone
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reached out and was like, Becky, I've, I've got some of the
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correct information for you. And then we still have other
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people who are like, no, that's, that's not right.
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And it's, it's hard to get it all out right because we can't
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give you every single detail and every single podcast.
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So some of the stuff we have to talk at about at a very high
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level. But I think some of the stuff is
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just ingrained. It's been infamous.
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And some of these cases are old, right?
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Like BTK is is old, but it's foundational.
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But there are still misnomers and people think they know the
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case, but they didn't work the case, so so they don't know the
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case. And this is another one of those
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cases that never went to trial. So not everything is out there.
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Right. But as I was telling Stacy, I, I
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constantly am seeing new documentaries.
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I was telling Stacey there was a new documentary that hit Netflix
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recently. I'm the daughter of BTK Killer,
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which was fascinating because hearing her, his daughter's
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perspective of what they went through as a family when he was
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identified as a BTK killer. So if you get a chance, watch
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that. It's really, really good.
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Yeah. And then Next up after we did
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well and, and BTK was kind of our first, was our first pace
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episode. And so is it was probably a
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little rough. We were, we were learning, we
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were figuring out how to do the podcast.
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What should we say? What should we not say?
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And I think you'll find like when we got into my first case
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that I testified on that was the, the voyeurism, the drugs
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and the and the. Bicycle.
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Masked man on a bicycle and we really dug down into my
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testimony. And so that was like a three
7:12
parter I believe. And I spent like half a day on
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the stand. I think you'll find that's an
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average amount of time, like 1/2 a day on the stand to, to say
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what you did, even if it was the simplest of cases, because you
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got to bring it all in and introduce it.
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If we did that one again, would it, would it be so long?
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Probably not. I, I don't know.
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But you know, we're filling it out and you can listen to as
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much as that testimony as you want to.
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That's right. And if you need more experience
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and lessons on testimony and just to kind of hear how it
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happened to someone else, you know, that might be interesting
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for you to go back and listen to all three parts of that sure
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again, or recommend it to to somebody else.
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And another pretty popular episode that was at the front
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was like how to get into digital forensics, right.
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So why did we do that one? Well.
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There's so many people that reach out to us even now.
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People reach out to us, especially now that they're
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listening to our podcast. They reach out to us and they're
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like, hey, I really love the podcast.
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I really love your experience. I really love your knowledge.
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How can I get into digital forensics?
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And we really want to share that those opportunities, share those
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insights because Stacy and I both have our own side
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consulting firm that we work other cases from.
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But the experience comes from going to work, going to work,
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whether it's at the federal government or with law
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enforcement or with consulting firms or even with the the
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forensic companies that you're testing, you're validating,
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you're learning the tools, you're understanding how it
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works. But I would say the biggest
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conception we have with how to get into digital forensics and
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what to do is. Is where do they start?
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And so we were able to share that podcast to help you get
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some knowledge on that. And you'll see a lot of
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discussion with this on social media, places like LinkedIn
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especially they're like, is digital forensics an entry level
9:15
job? And you know, we, we set it then
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and we'll repeat it now, but you've really got to know how to
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use a computer well to be able to do digital forensics because
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you've got to go no normal. So you can find the abnormal.
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And so you've got to get that fundamental knowledge and
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experience down 1st. And kind of what I see in some
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of the classes that I teach at the university level is people
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are having just a tough time, like using a computer.
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They don't know how to screenshot.
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They don't know how to screenshot a window instead of
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the whole desktop, right? They don't know how to use
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Excel. And these are like fundamental
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tools that we have to use all the time.
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And if you're struggling at that level, how are you going to use
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an advanced digital forensics tool, right?
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Right. And it also goes back to.
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Understanding the tool, understanding the computer,
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understanding technology, but it's that curiosity, it's that
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investigative mindset, It's that, it's that I getting a
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little bit of information and seeing what clues are available
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to help you move through the case.
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And so a lot of it is technology and, and, and that is the basics
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that you should know technology and then it's moving into being
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able to have that investigative mindset.
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Be curious, ask questions, think about being a person that is
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conducting criminal activity on their computer or their cell
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phone, how they would be doing it.
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And if you utilize an iPhone or if you utilize an Android or if
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you utilize a Mac or a Windows computer, how does it operate?
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And so just having that general understanding of how your own
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personal tools work helps you to learn more.
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Yep. And then we've just discussed a
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lot of different cases. We did your case with the Kik.
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App, the Kik app where the the girl went missing and we were
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able to recover her with the only technology, the only lead
11:26
that they had came from us being persistent and breaking into
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that technology, the hidden partition.
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And then we also talked about the the other case that I had,
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which was the hidden partition. And Yep, the we did.
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You did the Kik app that was the more recent of the two and that
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was with the girl. That was the girl that was
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right, and then the hidden partition was one of the.
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First episodes we did. Those are the two, yeah.
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But both of those, it shows you never know what you're going to
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get. You don't know how big a case
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will be until afterwards, and you don't know the impact that
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you'll have until afterwards. As well.
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That's right, for sure. In fact, that same county that
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the kick app, the girl went missing.
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The County Sheriff's Department actually contacted me recently
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at the college asking me questions about our podcast and
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how he can get involved, how he can know more and learn.
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And I thought that was just ironic.
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And he doesn't even know that that podcast is in relation to
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his county. Yeah.
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Sheriff's Department. So.
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Yeah. That's so interesting.
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I know. Yeah, I know so.
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Be fun. So I mentioned earlier we did 6
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episodes on Casey Anthony. We mentioned John Bradley.
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We also spoke to Larry Daniel. Yes.
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And kind of simultaneously like we were doing that in the
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background, like you guys don't know who we're talking to and
13:03
what we're prepping for. But then we also, I had spoken
13:08
with Larry Daniel's son, Lars and I never put it together
13:13
because I was just like Larry Daniel, Lars Daniel, You know,
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it's a lot of people on LinkedIn do a friends or examiners.
13:18
And so we spoke to the father and son regarding different
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things. And Lars came back one day and
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was like, hey, I saw the Casey Anthony episode came out.
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Did you know my dad was the defense expert?
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And we said, yes, we we do. And we've already spoken to him.
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And that episode's coming out. Well, and ironically,
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ironically, when I was at the FBI and we had a defense expert
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come in to analyze a case that I had worked and it was out in the
13:48
Fort Smith resident agency, so out of the Little Rock area in
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one of our resident offices. And the agent asked me to come
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and set up for the defense expert to come and review and
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all do all the review of the evidence.
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And it so happened to be Lars Daniel went very young in his
14:09
very infancy of getting into digital forensics.
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So Lars Daniel was the defense expert that came to analyze the
14:19
case. So just know this community is
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very small. You get to know all these
14:24
people. And then after we did the
14:26
Epstein videos and Forbes reached out and asked to write a
14:30
paper on or write an article on the on our work that we did with
14:34
Epstein files, that actually was Lars Daniel, who was the author
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for. So you just never know.
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Yeah. Never know who you'll cross
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paths with in the past and then again in the future.
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And you don't know if it'll be for the prosecution or the
14:52
defense or maybe it flip flops now.
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Did you and Lars have to both testify in that same case that
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he went out and we did the review?
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For we didn't have to testify. It ended up being a plea deal
15:05
and end up cleaning out. So there was no trial for it.
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But yeah, if we if it would have went to trial, Lars would have
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been the defense experts that had to testify.
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And I would have been Yep, the prosecutors.
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OK Yeah, yeah, that would have been funny.
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I know. Right.
15:19
So. So you never know.
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And again, build your network. That is what we tell our
15:24
students all the time. Build your network, get to know
15:27
this community. We are very connected in this
15:32
community. We volunteer.
15:34
Becky much more so. Becky knows all the people, much
15:37
more so just. I don't know about that, but yes
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yes, but I would say, I say get to know, you know, to build your
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network. Stacey and I volunteer, we give
15:47
advice, we take consulting calls.
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We we share can work if. If if it's out of my wheelhouse,
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I'm passing it to her. And if it's out of her
15:58
wheelhouse, she's passing it to me.
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So we're there to help out anything we're doing.
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Yeah. And that's why we're doing this
16:03
podcast is to help get information out there and
16:06
lessons learned and get the stories out there, too.
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But let's loop back around to Casey Anthony.
16:12
What was the most interesting or shocking thing that you learn as
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we dug into that case? Wow.
16:19
I. I would say how the experts were
16:25
subpoenaed by both sides, the defense and the prosecution, and
16:31
how the defense, I'm going to say, strategized to use the
16:36
prosecution's experts. I thought that was the most
16:39
compelling for me. What about you?
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Well, I had not, as I usually do, like I don't pay attention
16:46
to any cases when they're going on.
16:48
And I'd only heard like, the lesson learned, the lesson
16:51
learned of Casey Anthony was to validate your tool resolved with
16:55
another tool. But then we got in and we
16:57
started watching the testimony. And then I was picking up on all
17:02
the bizarre things that were happening during the trial and
17:06
when John Bradley was testifying.
17:09
And I was like, he's reading someone else's report into the
17:13
record. I go, I think that's what he's
17:16
doing. I couldn't tell for sure.
17:18
And then obviously we asked him later and he's like, that, that
17:21
wasn't my report. But then I also noticed that the
17:25
end of John Bradley's testimony, when the defense was trying to
17:28
get him to read in another report, the state hopped all
17:33
over that was like, that's not your report.
17:35
Oh, you can't testify. About that report.
17:38
So I thought that was interesting, but.
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Yeah, I think. Just like actually watching and
17:44
listening to the testimony and seeing all the little things
17:47
that went down and learning information from Larry about
17:51
what was happening behind the scenes and just looking back and
17:57
seeing how much of it was a dance between the lawyers.
18:01
Yes, about what what was happening and going on there
18:05
right and. That's it's it's again, it's we
18:08
talk about it all the time, but your attorneys are the
18:12
strategists. They are the ones that are going
18:15
to utilize the experts to get the information into the court
18:19
and how they're going to do that.
18:21
So just just knowing that was the, and what we know as the
18:26
first trial of digital evidence that went through and how the
18:31
defense utilized the experts, how the defense utilized reports
18:35
that weren't written by the the, you know, the people that were
18:39
testifying to him. It was all very interesting and
18:42
compelling. Do you think the same strategies
18:44
would be as effective now as they were back then, or do you
18:49
think people are more knowledgeable and attorneys are
18:52
more knowledgeable about how to strategize with digital
18:56
evidence? I.
18:57
Think they think they're more knowledgeable, but I don't know
19:02
that they necessarily are. But I think they, as we've seen
19:09
in some other trials, they take the narrative.
19:13
And by they, I mean the lawyers take the narrative that support
19:18
their client the most and run with it.
19:21
And if they can use digital evidence to do that, they will.
19:24
And if the other side can use digital evidence to disprove it,
19:27
discredit, they will. That's right.
19:30
But the other thing I found is I'm going back and really
19:34
analyzing all this stuff, not just listening to the news, but
19:38
listening to the testimony is going, wow, that was technical,
19:46
that was complicated. That was so much information.
19:49
And I just wonder how much of this is the jury understanding
19:57
and picking up? Like what is that it's saying?
19:59
Are you? Picking up everything I'm
20:01
putting down. Yeah, yeah, right, right.
20:05
And that's The thing is because if you get too technical in your
20:09
descriptions of the evidence, which we are going to discuss in
20:15
future episodes as we analyze other people's testimony, you
20:20
get too technical. You're you're.
20:24
Going above your your average jurors knowledge and by not
20:31
using analogies or breaking it down to be something that's
20:35
visible or constructible by an individual that doesn't have the
20:39
same technology knowledge. I don't know it's going to.
20:42
I don't know that it could be as effective.
20:44
Yeah. Well, I think part of the
20:46
problem is you've got to introduce all of the evidence.
20:49
So you've got to bring in like the background and the history
20:51
and the technical stuff. But by the time you get to the
20:55
why this is important, why this matters part, have you lost the
20:59
jury? Right, right.
21:01
I don't know, but I mean, it's hard when you have like 1, you
21:06
know, one digital forensics expert or vehicle expert after
21:10
another after another after another.
21:11
Like how much is the jury taking away from that, especially if
21:16
there's not a good like summary at the end, Like what was the
21:19
point of all of this? What was the meaning?
21:22
And So what should we learn from this?
21:23
I I wish I would see something more obvious like that, like to
21:30
wrap up each important block of the testimony.
21:33
Yeah, I'm not saying it's not out there.
21:34
It's just not been out there. And what we've been watching so
21:37
far and and I'll. Be honest with you.
21:39
I, the US Attorney, US Attorney of Eastern District of Arkansas,
21:44
was an AUSA when I testified in a case for him.
21:48
And I felt like he broke down that digital evidence best of
21:54
anyone I've ever seen in the sense that he laid it out there
21:57
and he put text messages on these little blocks that look
22:01
like phones. And he went back and forth and
22:04
only pulled out the most relevant, compelling, shocking
22:09
text messages and then tied it all back into his closing
22:14
arguments. And I think that if you have
22:16
those visuals and you have those descriptions and you have those
22:20
attorneys that are willing to go out there and, and really break
22:25
it down to where it's how we look.
22:28
At our devices and communicate with our devices on a regular
22:31
basis is going to be useful in the future with court and
22:35
testimony. Yep.
22:37
And then I've also been surprised just finishing up with
22:40
Casey Anthony and John Bradley. John Bradley's episode on
22:44
YouTube has been our number one watched in this case episode out
22:50
there. So people were super interested
22:53
to know what he had to say about his experience because it was
22:58
not out there. Yeah, because.
23:00
From what we understood and and talking to John, from what we
23:03
understood is that they took the words that came out of his mouth
23:08
and they flipped them. The media exaggerated it.
23:11
They took that 84 times and just made it a very big deal and it
23:18
and it and it wasn't and no one ever asked.
23:23
To interview or get John's side of the story until you and I
23:27
came along, Yeah. He didn't get a chance to put
23:29
the whole thing out there. When that stuff came out, he was
23:31
interviewed a little bit and then he went on the Doctor Phil
23:34
show, I think, but it didn't get to go into what we got to go
23:38
into on the podcast. And rumor has it he's going to
23:42
have a book coming out. I don't know if we're supposed
23:45
to say that yet or not, so you might need to cut that out.
23:49
OK, we'll ask him if. We can ask him if we can keep
23:51
this out, but yeah, so there might be that to look forward to
23:55
as well. Yeah.
23:57
What's another episode you want to talk about?
23:59
Or episode series. You know, I would say they,
24:03
they've all been great, right? We've had the the single ones
24:08
where we bring people in and introduce them and we talk about
24:12
what they do that Jamie with cyber reason, talking about
24:16
business e-mail compromise and how people, you know, really,
24:21
you know, suffer from a big loss of money from, you know, threat
24:25
actors getting into e-mail accounts.
24:27
So that one was really good. What are some other ones that
24:30
received a lot of views? Do you recall?
24:33
Sorry, there's an airplane going over.
24:35
OK. You know, I think on average we
24:41
have a lot of the same number of listens, although I will say
24:45
like how to get into digital forensics is another top one.
24:50
What I liked recording, enjoying and like the format and style of
24:54
was recent where we had the thing about Pam, where we
24:57
brought Larry McLean on there because I felt like, and I said
24:59
it in one of the clips on social media, whether it was the post
25:03
or I said it on video, I was like, I like that style because
25:06
it was like, let's sit around like we do at lunch or after
25:10
conferences and we're just going to sit there and tell war
25:13
stories. And everybody has a story to
25:16
tell. It might be big, it might be
25:18
small, it might be infamous, it might be unknown.
25:20
But there's always something. And then people chime in with,
25:24
oh, my God, I had something similar or, you know, or we're
25:27
just fascinated by what is happening and what they found
25:31
out. Yeah.
25:31
And Larry? 'S a great storyteller.
25:33
He's just a such a good storyteller, funny and just had
25:39
so much knowledge and understanding from that case,
25:44
even though there were parts that he didn't work and then
25:46
there were parts that he worked and and then just to know that a
25:50
lot of these cases that we're talking about are.
25:53
Documentaries or series or and we have some more coming that
25:59
are the same thing so yeah right.
26:01
And it, Larry helped us put together some stuff behind the
26:04
scenes because the lawyer wrote a book and just like the one
26:07
with BTK, it was a little bit off, right?
26:10
Even though like that book, it, the thing about Pam was based on
26:15
the court transcripts and affidavits and all that stuff,
26:19
it's not 100%. And he was.
26:21
And Larry said there was more computers.
26:23
But then we also got the insight about like Betsy's phone wasn't
26:27
initially examined. So that's why her texts were
26:29
hearsay. And then about her laptop not
26:32
being examined until four years later, which made us chuckle a
26:36
little bit harder about that guy that was testifying on behalf of
26:39
the state to make it sound like it was super complicated to get
26:43
that Word document off of that laptop.
26:46
That's right. That's.
26:46
Right, so. It's.
26:48
It's just been fun. Stacy and I, we really, we're
26:52
both very busy with our jobs and our jobs.
26:56
You get that and we love sharing knowledge.
27:00
We love sharing technology and, and ideas and thoughts and all
27:04
that and all that. But we love getting together and
27:08
bringing you guys this podcast and bringing to experts from the
27:13
field and bringing the stories from the field.
27:15
And I think that has been the best part of this podcast.
27:19
And it just was on a whim that Stacy and I reconnected at I
27:23
Asus in person. We reconnected earlier in the
27:27
year through LinkedIn. And then it was like, Hey, let's
27:30
start a podcast, OK. And then we recorded our first
27:33
one the very next week and we haven't missed a beat.
27:36
And it's been so much fun. It is.
27:38
It's fun, it's a lot of work. We're here to bring you like
27:42
facts and so obviously we have to sit down and research it.
27:45
And I mean, we had that one episode, which was Elizabeth
27:48
battles AI and that was based on a TV show and that was a little
27:51
short one, but it was just kind of fun to get in there.
27:53
I got some great comments about that one.
27:55
Someone was like I love Els Beth and I love.
27:59
Hearing about your ideas behind the Els Beth show.
28:04
But the Epstein files. Oh yeah, we.
28:06
How could we forget the Epstein files?
28:09
OK wow, why do we do the Epstein files so.
28:12
Because we want you guys to have the truth and the knowledge and
28:15
the we that is the name of our podcast Parsing the truth.
28:20
Because when information is released and it's incorrect and
28:26
then people capitalize and write articles on the incorrect
28:32
information, we feel compelled to bring it to you and share.
28:38
We feel it necessary for us to bring you the truth and break it
28:44
down. So we really spend some time on
28:46
that and. And learned a lot as well yeah.
28:50
And I mean we're, you know, they're like there was the wire
28:53
no wired. They started it and said, oh,
28:56
you know, 3 missing minutes and sort of stuff.
28:58
And then they're like now we're going to have this great podcast
29:00
episode where we're going to dive deep into it and we got
29:03
nothing and then everybody's freaking out over it and what
29:07
could we find? So we're like, let's look at it,
29:09
right? And and so we did and we're, you
29:12
know, the biggest take away off the first release of the Epstein
29:15
videos from in the in the jail was those not raw file.
29:19
They weren't. And then you created a couple of
29:22
weeks or maybe a month after we did that episode, then the DOJ
29:27
released more files to Congress, who then threw that up on a
29:31
Google Drive to download more stuff.
29:33
And lo and behold, we found what is likely the actual raw video
29:39
footage. And then there was no longer
29:42
that cut off at 125858. It rolls straight through arms.
29:46
Excuse me, There is no longer that cut off at 115858.
29:50
It rolls straight through to midnight.
29:52
And then it just raises more question, why did Miss Bondi say
29:57
if there was a reboot? So because there was no reboot,
30:00
we proved that we saw that there's no reboot rolls on.
30:04
And and it's stuff like that that if if this is happening,
30:09
your conspiracy theories. Yeah, yeah.
30:12
Supports conspiracy theories. And it also makes organizations
30:16
look bad if examiners are making statements like this or this
30:20
happens in the courtroom. I mean, this is all digging away
30:25
at credibility, right? Right, right.
30:28
And and that's one thing that you.
30:31
As. An expert have to remember is
30:34
even though Stacy and I have our own companies, we do our own
30:38
expert work. We also have to be very mindful
30:43
of the fact that our any opposing individual or attorney
30:49
that is going to. Pull in.
30:53
You know, we're going to get pulled into a case, they're
30:55
going to watch these and they're going to find it.
30:57
They're going to see if they can find anything contextual that we
31:01
have said that would discredit us.
31:04
And, and that is why we tell the truth.
31:07
We break it down and we give you the ideas and the thoughts and
31:12
the understanding of how digital forensic and digital forensics
31:17
as experts works. Yep.
31:19
That's why we focus on the facts, because the facts are the
31:24
facts. Sometimes you might have to draw
31:26
conclusions, right? Sometimes you might have to make
31:29
an opinion. But the facts are the facts.
31:33
And and ones and zeros, not X. 'S and O's, not X's.
31:38
And O's who said X's and O's, That was that.
31:40
We were watching true crime podcaster talking about some
31:44
Cara Reid stuff that was she was prompted by the same thing that
31:49
we were watching on Karen Reed. So she was going to clap back
31:52
and say why they were wrong. And then she was talking about
31:54
the X's and O's on the hard drive.
31:56
That's right. And.
31:57
We're like hugs and. Kisses.
31:59
She just. Say X's and O's.
32:00
I guess there are. Lots of hugs and ones and.
32:02
Zeros, hugs and kisses. No, I think she's meant there's
32:05
lots of hugs and kisses on the on the phones and the hard
32:08
drives. Yeah, there probably.
32:10
Is it's all those? Emojis getting out of control.
32:13
X0X 0XOXO yeah. So, yeah, so, you know, it's
32:18
black and white. It's it, is it, it, if the
32:23
evidence is there, it's hard to dismiss it.
32:27
It's hard to try and not include it in.
32:33
And so then the best way that attorneys have found to
32:38
discredit the evidence that's coming in, and we saw this,
32:42
we've seen this in some trials that we've been watching is the
32:47
person, is your degree, Yep, an earned degree, Yep.
32:53
Is your certification still valid or have they expired and
32:58
you have not listed them as expired on your CV?
33:01
Are there things on your CV that aren't correct or is there
33:06
something out there that they can go and focus on?
33:10
Your social media accounts or or your public speaking or your
33:14
presentations or your presence in general discredit you?
33:18
Yeah, they're attacking you. As a person, I've experienced it
33:23
at the stand and you know, when it's coming at you, maybe you
33:25
take it more personally like they're attacking me and asking
33:29
questions like, well, did you do this?
33:32
And you say no and then where do you stop?
33:36
No, I didn't because that's your job.
33:39
And you know, how far do you go down that, that path?
33:42
And so, but luckily, like your attorney on your side should
33:45
have that chance to back around and, and help you recover and,
33:50
and ask the questions. Explain why is your answer no
33:53
And why is it a good thing that your answer was no or whatever
33:57
it was? So it's certainly the whole job
34:02
is stressful, right? For for numerous reasons, no
34:04
matter which side you're working on.
34:06
It gets more stressful when you go to trial.
34:09
And then it's even more stressful if you're in a court
34:12
that allows video cameras in. That's right, That's right.
34:15
And then we can go and watch the videos and be like, oh, maybe.
34:20
That is something good to note as far as how that was answered
34:25
and that question was used and that evidence was gained access
34:29
into the court system. Yeah, first, but for sure even
34:33
if. If you're not watching court
34:35
cases. Skip through Go.
34:37
Back and watch them because that is free training and education.
34:41
You can go back and and cross reference with your notes what
34:45
you know, maybe do some, some testing, make some notes on it.
34:49
Because then when it comes up in your case, you can be like aha
34:52
and you can go back and be like, well, what did the what did the
34:55
prosecution say? What did the defense say?
34:58
What? What do I know about this?
34:59
Do I agree? Do I disagree with one of them
35:03
or neither of them or what is happening there?
35:06
So I think that's a great resource we need to leverage
35:10
better and I love. How Stacey has brought it to my
35:12
attention through this podcast and through US doing this
35:17
together about how much knowledge is out there that we
35:22
can watch to better ourselves, to make us better experts,
35:27
better examiners and watching someone else do it and, and
35:32
their composure and their professionalism and when they're
35:37
getting attacked, how they respond.
35:39
It's, it's all a learning process.
35:42
It's a very good way to learn how to testify if you are
35:47
working. Cases that will end up in court.
35:49
Yep. And the one thing they always do
35:52
is they try to make a big deal about like, how many times have
35:55
you testified? And they're like, oh, it's only
35:58
a few times, but it doesn't that I wish there was somewhere on
36:02
your CV where you could be like, well, I did such a great job.
36:05
So all of these people fled, or I wrote a report and then they
36:11
dropped the charges. Or I showed up in court and then
36:13
they dropped the charges. I wish they're like, where do we
36:16
get to keep that little scoreboard?
36:17
I know. All the great work we do before
36:19
it gets to trial. That's right and makes it so it
36:21
doesn't get to trial. I mean, it's interesting to say
36:24
that just like when someone's about to go to trial and they
36:28
want to bring in an expert and, and they say, just bring me your
36:31
CV, turn the CV over and then the next thing you know, the
36:35
case is settled. And so it's like, did the case
36:38
settle because they know that they had an expert?
36:40
Did the case settle because they had their ducks in a row, as you
36:44
know, where they unable to challenge the digital data that
36:51
was about to be presented. And so just know that Christine,
36:57
accurate, truthful work can be very powerful.
37:01
Absolutely 100. Percent they can.
37:03
It makes the difference between going to court sometimes.
37:07
Yeah, yeah. So.
37:09
That's why. A good written report is very
37:11
powerful because if you lay it all out there, they'll be like.
37:16
And this miss? Right and.
37:17
And then they realize, and then they realize, oh, this is going
37:21
to be through their strategy, very hard to challenge.
37:26
And then if you have a very good presence, very good
37:31
professionalism. Your CV.
37:34
Is accurate and truthful. They can't even go after you as
37:37
a, you know, as a witness, they can't discredit you in any way.
37:41
So they they have to change your strategy, right?
37:44
I mean, that's just part of the, it's just part of the process,
37:46
right. But as.
37:47
Much as we say you know the facts are the facts and it's
37:50
black and white, there are still cases.
37:54
Truck in the background. Let him finish.
37:56
Shifting out of whatever he's doing, he's shifting.
37:59
But. There are still cases where the
38:03
experts vehemently disagree about about what an artifact
38:08
means. So it is hard and it's, I mean,
38:12
as much as we say it's black and white, there is some
38:16
interpretation of the data going on for sure.
38:19
Because otherwise if if you didn't have to do that part of
38:22
the interpretation, then tools would just spit out reports and
38:26
we wouldn't have jobs, right? And it goes.
38:27
Back to knowing your tools and validating and testing.
38:32
I've been working with Stacy on something that she's been
38:36
validating and testing and, and it's just like, hey, download
38:39
this and, and send me something so I can see what it looks like
38:44
on this end of the process. And it goes back to knowing your
38:50
tools and validating and testing and being accurate.
38:53
Because the tools aren't going to get it all the time.
38:56
They're not going to be right every time.
38:59
Every time there's a new update and release and aversion and all
39:03
the things the tools have to get caught up too.
39:06
And so that's always going to be our.
39:08
Struggle. I mean, the tools always have to
39:11
get caught up. There is always that leg you're
39:15
always going to be. Manually looking at something
39:18
either with a native tool or like looking at it in hex,
39:20
trying to figure out what's going on.
39:22
I mean, I, I think this oxygen forensics opened my eyes up to
39:26
some things. And one was the company metadata
39:29
forensics and the fact that there's no commercial tool right
39:33
now. Riggs is Alexis Berganoni's I
39:36
leave tool. Yep, but there's no commercial
39:39
tool that will break out group calls on iPhones, right?
39:45
And so Patrick Eller's company, they did all this work and
39:48
research, testing and validation, and then they gave
39:51
it to Briggs and they built it into.
39:54
Yeah, so know that, too. Is that you?
39:57
Can't sometimes you're in the middle of court testimony and a
40:01
question is asked and you're like, oh, I got to run back to
40:05
the lab and and test something really quick just to see because
40:09
I don't know the answer to that and it's OK to say I don't know,
40:12
but you can then, you know, seek the answer.
40:16
So I I found that to be a. Fascinating presentation and
40:20
hopefully we'll have Patrick on our show.
40:22
We're going to get him on here at some point.
40:25
He and. His business are crazy busy.
40:27
He testifies a lot and yeah, I think he.
40:30
Said, I think he said he's testified over 150 times in in
40:34
court. So that's great.
40:36
Now that we we're getting close to winding this down 26 episodes
40:43
and fun what what are your thoughts?
40:46
How do you feel about it? What do we what do we see coming
40:49
in the next 26 episodes? What do we see?
40:51
Coming in the next 26 episodes. Well, let's see.
40:55
So that'll take us through to like mid-May ish of next year.
40:59
I mean we've got to do the big one.
41:01
We've got to do Karen Reed. We joked that that'll be the 52
41:06
episode series starting sometime in 2026.
41:10
We hope to break that down and not do 52 episodes, not even 26
41:15
episodes on that one. But there is so much to take
41:19
away from that case and I've already listened to both trials
41:23
twice, taking lots of notes on that.
41:25
It's just so big and so complicated and to give you the
41:29
value add that is the big one I obviously see come in.
41:34
What do you I, I. Forward to or I've, I've made a
41:38
a list of experts that we have coming on different cases that
41:44
they're going to talk about some that are, you know, that have
41:47
marked the way that they have that they've known digital
41:51
forensics 1 Boston Marathon bombing, a friend of mine that
41:58
is going to come on. We, we'd love to look at the
42:01
Murdoch murder. Yep, cases because that has some
42:05
really good digital forensics in it.
42:07
Yep. And some great testimony as
42:09
well. Absolutely.
42:10
And then, you know others we have other people that we have
42:16
grown up with I would say coming on to talk about cases that
42:20
they've worked and that have also been episodes on caught in
42:26
the net or Dateline or something like that.
42:28
So just be be looking out I'm ready.
42:32
This will be fun getting our friends on and our former
42:36
colleagues and some of our new networks of experts come on and
42:41
talk about cases. So Yep.
42:43
Well, another thing, and I know we've talked about this, but not
42:46
as a podcast idea. I think it's the whole US versus
42:49
them mentality. We should talk about how that
42:52
has evolved, yeah. Over time, because maybe you
42:55
have an experience, but if you're old, you might have and I
42:58
think that's worth seeing. Where we were and where we're at
43:02
today, right, with that sort of mentality, right.
43:04
And, and Stacy and I even brought brought that to Oxygen
43:08
Forensics on our live episode that will air in a couple weeks
43:13
where we talk about what has happened in the last 25 years.
43:18
Yep. How it has gone from what it was
43:23
one point 4/4 MB floppy disk to 40 terabyte in 2027 being
43:31
developed by Toshiba, Toshiba. So yeah, it's, it's that mass
43:36
data overload. And we, yeah, we have it coming,
43:39
coming to you. Yeah.
43:42
Yeah, so we just want to thank you all for watching, listening
43:47
and sharing the podcast, sharing your knowledge and experience
43:50
and ideas. And of course, never stop
43:52
reaching out to us. If you've got that case we've
43:54
just got to talk about, make sure to let us know so we can
43:57
get you on here and share the facts of your case too.
43:59
That's right. So.
44:00
Until next time, stay safe, stay sharp and keep parsing the truth
44:03
when bite at a time. If you enjoyed this episode,
44:08
make sure to follow us to get notified the next time a new
44:12
episode drops. If you can do Morehead on over
44:15
to parsingthetruth.com and donate by clicking on the donate
44:19
button. Parsing the Truth is a nonprofit
44:21
organization and we are raising money to send a new digital
44:24
Forensic Examiner to IASIS training next year in Orlando.
44:29
Thanks. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
44:36
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.