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Will congress move quickly on a highway bill? · Talking Michigan Transportation

• 0:07
  Jeff Cranson: Hello, welcome to the Talking Michigan Transportation Podcast.
• 0:10
  Jeff Cranson: I'm Jeff Cranson.
• 0:12
  Jeff Cranson: There's a lot going on in Congress right now with discussions about another reauthorization act.
• 0:22
  Jeff Cranson: That means a bill to fund transportation, hopefully for a good number of years, so that the people who depend on these funds can make long-term decisions and have some certainty about what they're doing, which is what everybody talks about.
• 0:35
  Jeff Cranson: I was happy to invite back to the podcast Susan Howard, who is the Director of Policy and Government Affairs for the American Association of State Highway Transportation Officials, or AASHTO, and she shared her thoughts on the discussions and the chances that we'll actually get a reauthorization sooner in the cycle than we have in the past, and what she's hearing from members that she talks to on the Hill and pretty much everything else related to federal transportation funding and policy.
• 1:06
  Jeff Cranson: So I hope you enjoy the conversation, Susan Howard of AASHTO.
• 1:10
  Jeff Cranson: I explained her background in the introduction.
• 1:14
  Jeff Cranson: Susan, thank you for taking time to be here and talk about everything that's going on in DC right now as we push for transportation funding.
• 1:23
  Susan Howard: Of course.
• 1:23
  Susan Howard: Thanks for the invitation.
• 1:25
  Jeff Cranson: So let's start with where we're at with reauthorization and maybe just break that down for the uninitiated, since everybody just kind of refers to reauthorization now, like we should all know what that means.
• 1:38
  Susan Howard: Right right.
• 1:38
  Susan Howard: So the last reauthorization bill which was a lot more than just reauthorization of surface transportation programs, but that was its core the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act will expire on September 30th of 2026.
• 1:54
  Susan Howard: Because of the unique way that transportation is funded at the federal level, you have to have a reauthorization bill on time.
• 2:02
  Susan Howard: A lot of other federal programs can kind of go year to year with appropriations and be fine without authorizing legislation, but because we are dependent upon the federal gas tax to support the Highway Trust Fund, we really need either a bill or an extension by September 30th of 2026.
• 2:20
  Susan Howard: The way things, what's happening right now?
• 2:24
  Susan Howard: The House and Senate committees are gearing up.
• 2:28
  Susan Howard: They have expressed a desire for a very aggressive timeline.
• 2:34
  Susan Howard: They would like to have legislation drafted and moved through their committees by the end of the calendar year.
• 2:41
  Susan Howard: So that would be unusual.
• 2:42
  Susan Howard: I mean, that would be a good maybe nine months to a year before the bill actually expires.
• 2:51
  Susan Howard: And there's a few reasons for that sense of urgency I think that I can get into.
• 2:53
  Susan Howard: But right now we're at a point where the House Transparency and Infrastructure Committee has solicited input from stakeholders.
• 3:01
  Susan Howard: The deadline for that was last week.
• 3:02
  Susan Howard: The Senate is doing a similar process Senate Environment and Public Works Committee.
• 3:07
  Susan Howard: I should say there's a lot of jurisdictional things going on in the Senate with surface transportation, but the primary committee that drives the process is the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee.
• 3:18
  Susan Howard: They're doing a member request meeting for members of the Senate.
• 3:22
  Susan Howard: So by May 23rd is the deadline for senators themselves to submit their own priorities for surface transportation reauthorization.
• 3:31
  Jeff Cranson: So do you feel, based on what you're hearing and the mood, somewhat confident that, given the separate discussions about the broader budget and continuing resolutions and those negotiations, having both transportation and infrastructure and EPW get somewhere on this is a possibility?
• 3:51
  Susan Howard: I think they're certainly going to try.
• 3:52
  Susan Howard: I do think it's a possibility.
• 3:54
  Susan Howard: They could hit a point, jeff, where they just can't go any further.
• 3:57
  Susan Howard: I think the big issue is going to be floor time in the Senate and then competing priorities next calendar year with tax cut, expirations and a lot of other issues when it comes to, you know, the rest of the federal budget piece.
• 4:10
  Susan Howard: So they're definitely going to make an effort and I think they could get potentially pretty far, particularly in committee, and then it becomes sort of a leadership discussion.
• 4:19
  Susan Howard: When can this come to the floor?
• 4:21
  Susan Howard: Do we have the votes?
• 4:22
  Susan Howard: They certainly would have the votes to pass something in the House, but the Senate is a little trickier because of the 60 vote threshold.
• 4:27
  Susan Howard: So whatever reauthorization legislation emerges from the Senate, committees of jurisdiction will have to be have enough Democratic support to get to get passed in the Senate.
• 4:39
  Susan Howard: What do you think about, or what are you hearing, I guess, in terms of feedback on the Secretary's proposal discussion about some kind of you for electric vehicles and hybrid vehicles.
• 5:05
  Susan Howard: It ranges in its amount, you know, from $100 to.
• 5:10
  Susan Howard: I think the largest one is around $350 a year.
• 5:13
  Susan Howard: This discussion about possibly having a national fee has emerged in the last few months it's really most prominently been discussed by the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee as part of their budget reconciliation package.
• 5:28
  Susan Howard: Last week, house Transportation and Infrastructure Committee did include a national fee for both electric vehicles and hybrid vehicles.
• 5:37
  Susan Howard: It's really an attempt, I think, to look at ways to make up some of the challenges that we have with the Highway Trust Fund based on that user pay principle.
• 5:49
  Susan Howard: So for folks who drive gasoline-powered vehicle, you pay the gas tax when you fill up your tank and it goes into the Highway Trust Fund.
• 5:57
  Susan Howard: These states that have enacted state EV or hybrid fees have been going under the philosophy of despite what type of fuel or energy your car uses, you use the roads.
• 6:09
  Susan Howard: The roads themselves need to be maintained.
• 6:13
  Susan Howard: We need to levy some kind of fee for those vehicles to capture some of that revenue.
• 6:19
  Susan Howard: It's not a surprise that folks are looking at this at the national level too.
• 6:22
  Susan Howard: We'll see what happens with what was included in budget reconciliation if it sticks, but I kind of see it as perhaps a look forward about what other mechanisms for funding Congress might look at for the next bill.
• 6:36
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, it's a good conversation starter, that's for sure, I think and Michigan, by the way, is one of those states.
• 6:41
  Jeff Cranson: Back in 2015, as part of a road funding package, added a surcharge on EVs and hybrids for registration, and much to the surprise of people who still think that they're not paying their fair share, some studies from the Department of Treasury have showed that those surcharges do make up for the gap in fuel taxes, but what I'm curious about is how, on one hand, they're pulling the plug, so to speak, on National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Program and other things to incentivize a charging network which would obviously support more electric vehicles.
• 7:20
  Jeff Cranson: It seems like pretty low-hanging fruit or small ball to think that doing this is going to really move the needle on these big funding needs.
• 7:30
  Susan Howard: Yes, it is.
• 7:30
  Susan Howard: I mean it won't, I don't believe it'll move the needle.
• 7:33
  Susan Howard: Electric vehicles are still a pretty small percentage of the overall fleet in the United States.
• 7:42
  Susan Howard: It will grow.
• 7:43
  Susan Howard: It'll probably grow whether or not we have a national electric vehicle infrastructure charging program.
• 7:47
  Susan Howard: I think states will continue doing that work even if there's not a federal formula program for them to utilize.
• 7:55
  Susan Howard: But it will not solve the whole problem.
• 7:58
  Susan Howard: It is more of a, I think, a principled, as I mentioned earlier, trying to get at that user pay principle where we're capturing some revenue from those users.
• 8:08
  Susan Howard: But I agree, I mean it's not going to be the thing that moves the needle to full highway trust insolvency.
• 8:13
  Susan Howard: There simply aren't enough electric vehicles compared to gasoline-fueled vehicles to make that transition.
• 8:20
  Jeff Cranson: So what else are you hearing about?
• 8:22
  Jeff Cranson: You know we've heard that that got some coverage when Secretary Duffy announced that, but what else are you hearing about administration priorities?
• 8:32
  Susan Howard: Not too much so far.
• 8:33
  Susan Howard: I think they have really been focused a lot on air traffic control issues, a lot of aviation issues across the board.
• 8:39
  Susan Howard: You know we've had the tragedy in Washington DC at National Airport tragedy in Washington DC at National Airport.
• 8:47
  Susan Howard: We've had since then a few more close calls at my home airport, at DCA Ronald Reagan National Airport.
• 8:50
  Susan Howard: So there was a big announcement today about those sort of plans for revamping, revising air traffic control.
• 8:57
  Susan Howard: They have not yet articulated publicly what they're thinking on reauthorization.
• 9:05
  Susan Howard: There may be conversations going on behind the scenes.
• 9:06
  Susan Howard: They may be talking to the Senate and the House.
• 9:10
  Susan Howard: You know committee leadership but it's a little hard to tell at this point.
• 9:16
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, speaking of air traffic control, if you get a chance, listen to the New York Times the daily podcast that posted early this morning about what's going?
• 9:25
  Jeff Cranson: On in Newark and it's, it's pretty terrifying.
• 9:28
  Susan Howard: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:30
  Jeff Cranson: So, yeah, that's understandably, that's taken up a lot of oxygen, but we know that you're going to be still watching closely on the surface transportation aspect of this, transportation aspect of this.
• 9:41
  Jeff Cranson: Have you heard about USDOT reorganization efforts?
• 9:47
  Jeff Cranson: And you know, because we know, federal Highway lost 25% of its staff from the deferred payment reduction no-transcript we do.
• 10:22
  Susan Howard: That seems to be the rumor, mel, that they're looking at reorganizing.
• 10:27
  Susan Howard: I don't have an office for NEPA or environmental project delivery issues.
• 10:31
  Susan Howard: That's not mode specific right.
• 10:33
  Susan Howard: So it all goes through the same kind of funnel or channel, regardless of the fact that it's a Federal Highway funded program or a FTA funded program.
• 10:44
  Susan Howard: So I think there has been discussion about that.
• 10:47
  Susan Howard: There are definitely going to be changes in the workforce because of how many folks have been taking the deferred retirement, early retirement, and I think that, as a result, there may need to be some reorganizations to make sure that whatever functions federal USDOT holds on to will need to be.
• 11:08
  Susan Howard: You know, those functions won't go away.
• 11:09
  Susan Howard: They could do a lot of deregulation.
• 11:11
  Susan Howard: They could do a lot of passing things over to the states.
• 11:14
  Susan Howard: That does take time and in the meantime we have a program that we have to run.
• 11:17
  Susan Howard: So I think there will need to be some nimbleness there and what we see down the road when it comes to, you know again, more being over of duties to the states or deregulation, we may see that down the road.
• 11:30
  Jeff Cranson: So it's interesting you mentioned NEPA, because you're probably hearing what I am at the state and national level and that's people asking questions about, you know, the permitting process and expediting things, really coming from both sides of the aisle.
• 11:44
  Jeff Cranson: What do you think about that?
• 11:46
  Jeff Cranson: Is there a real chance to kind of streamline some things?
• 11:51
  Susan Howard: I do.
• 11:51
  Susan Howard: I think we've reached the point where the stars may be aligned for this.
• 11:56
  Susan Howard: There was a Senate Environment and Public Works Committee hearing a couple months ago maybe back in February on this topic and you would be amazed how similar the conversation was coming from both sides of the aisle.
• 12:10
  Susan Howard: There is a commitment there to do something.
• 12:13
  Susan Howard: Most of the environmental streamlining and permitting streamlining issues that Congress has dealt with in the past couple years have been really heavily energy focused.
• 12:21
  Susan Howard: It hasn't quite trickled down yet to transportation, but I think the surface transportation bill provides an opportunity, as well as all that's going on at the federal level with NEPA and changes that agencies are going to be making to their processes, as well as just general interest and support and prioritization in Congress.
• 12:43
  Susan Howard: Again, it's a multi-jurisdictional issue.
• 12:45
  Susan Howard: Again it crosses over a lot of different committees, but the House Resources Committee, for instance, and we've started having conversations with them because this is just a small.
• 12:53
  Susan Howard: It's kind of like a small piece of their pie in terms of the transportation part of it.
• 12:56
  Susan Howard: But again everyone's looking at kind of everything within their own jurisdiction to figure out how some improvements might be made to deliver projects on time and on budget.
• 13:09
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, so do you think because there's some bipartisan agreement?
• 13:14
  Jeff Cranson: We always say you know transportation infrastructure, you know shouldn't be a partisan thing, but everything is these days.
• 13:21
  Jeff Cranson: But do you see some common ground on transportation policy?
• 13:25
  Susan Howard: Particularly, I would say particularly well in both sides of the aisle.
• 13:28
  Susan Howard: I mean both sides of the Congress.
• 13:30
  Susan Howard: The House of Representatives, the T&I Committee, the Transportation Infrastructure Committee, is really leaning on the success that they had with both the FAA authorization bill and the Water Resources Development Act, which were very quote unquote member-driven processes and very bipartisan.
• 13:50
  Susan Howard: So they you know, the philosophy of Chairman Sam Graves is sort of we get the member buy-in and then it's a lot easier for everybody to vote.
• 13:58
  Susan Howard: Yes, it doesn't have to become partisan.
• 14:00
  Susan Howard: There will be policy differences in a lot of different areas.
• 14:05
  Susan Howard: I'll be curious to see how those get negotiated in the House and, as I mentioned earlier, in the Senate it's even more.
• 14:13
  Susan Howard: Has to even be more bipartisan or at least collaborative, because of the fact that to stop debate and actually vote in the Senate you need 60 votes.
• 14:22
  Susan Howard: The margins are very, very slim in the Senate.
• 14:24
  Susan Howard: Senate, you need 60 votes.
• 14:26
  Susan Howard: The margins are very, very slim in the Senate.
• 14:27
  Susan Howard: So you're going to always have to count on having a broader tent to bring along those seven, eight Democrats that you need to get anything passed.
• 14:32
  Susan Howard: So you kind of have to look at it that way as what can we get?
• 14:37
  Susan Howard: How can we get buy-in from all of these different members and their individual perspectives?
• 14:43
  Jeff Cranson: Stay with us.
• 14:44
  Jeff Cranson: We'll have more on the other side of this important message.
• 14:51
  MDOT Message: Even with the best planning, backups and traffic congestion can occur during road construction.
• 14:56
  MDOT Message: This can pose hazardous situations for both motorists and construction workers, particularly when drivers are distracted.
• 15:03
  MDOT Message: Motorists are more likely than workers to be killed or injured in work zone related incidents.
• 15:09
  MDOT Message: Additionally, the leading causes of all work zone related crashes are distracted driving and speeding.
• 15:15
  MDOT Message: So it's crucial to do your part in ensuring the safety of both drivers and focusing on your most important task safe driving.
• 15:23
  MDOT Message: Slow down and stay focused.
• 15:29
  Jeff Cranson: Talk a little bit about Chairman Graves.
• 15:31
  Jeff Cranson: He's obviously a congressional veteran.
• 15:34
  Jeff Cranson: Seems to really want to get into and understand transportation policy.
• 15:43
  Jeff Cranson: Can you talk a little bit about his?
• 15:44
  Susan Howard: background and what he brings to this.
• 15:45
  Susan Howard: Absolutely, chairman Graves got a very rare exception to remain chairman of the House Transpiration and Infrastructure Committee in this Congress.
• 15:53
  Susan Howard: Usually, under the Republican caucus rules or Republican leadership, you you have your term limited, so to speak, for committee leadership positions, for committee leadership positions, but Chairman Graves made it the case and it was met with positive response that he was able to deliver these two big pieces of legislation last conference the FAA authorization bill and the Water Resources Development Act on time with bipartisan support Again that member-driven process and he said let me have a shot at reauthorization driven process.
• 16:28
  Susan Howard: And he said, let me have a shot at reauthorization.
• 16:30
  Susan Howard: And I think people have a lot of faith in him to be able to deliver it on time.
• 16:36
  Susan Howard: So he's been very focused.
• 16:37
  Susan Howard: He's held quite a few hearings across a lot of different areas over the last few months to kind of set the stage.
• 16:43
  Susan Howard: Keep in mind too, the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee is really large and a lot of folks for whom this reauthorization bill will be their first.
• 16:54
  Susan Howard: So a lot of this too is kind of laying the groundwork, educating members on some of these programs and what they mean to their districts.
• 17:02
  Susan Howard: Just a couple weeks ago there was a hearing with a NASHTO board member, executive Director Carlos Perceras of Utah DOT, on the Highway Trust Fund, again trying to educate members on why this is important, how transportation funding works.
• 17:16
  Susan Howard: And then just earlier this week, nashto President, connecticut DOT Commissioner Gary Euclid was a witness at a hearing on rail infrastructure Because again, there was a very big rail title in the IIJA and I think folks are wanting to ensure that it continues to be a part of the surface bill.
• 17:35
  Susan Howard: It hasn't always been, but because of the robust funding and IJA, I think people want to see that continue.
• 17:40
  Susan Howard: So he's you know he's well positioned to be the one to shepherd this through and I think that's part of the reason that he was granted this reprieve and an extension to continue as chair, because folks have seen how he can work to really deliver solid pieces of legislation.
• 17:57
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, that's good to hear, I think, speaking of the trust fund and looking at ways to augment it and certainly one of those things that they're talking about, as we mentioned earlier with the, you know, some kind of registration fees at the national level that could make a small dent.
• 18:13
  Jeff Cranson: But are you hearing other ideas to augment this?
• 18:15
  Jeff Cranson: And I don't know, tell me if you ever use this line with members when you're on the Hill.
• 18:19
  Jeff Cranson: But what else costs the same now that it did in 1993?
• 18:24
  Susan Howard: Exactly.
• 18:24
  Susan Howard: We have a really good chart that shows all of the inflationary increases of things from 1993.
• 18:30
  Susan Howard: The cost of a movie ticket, the cost of health insurance, cost of college tuition I graduated from high school in 1993.
• 18:38
  Susan Howard: So things have changed quite a bit since then.
• 18:40
  Susan Howard: One of the big well, the big discussion.
• 18:43
  Susan Howard: So we had the discussion around a fee, a national registration fee for electric vehicles and hybrid vehicles.
• 18:48
  Susan Howard: There's also a desire to look at a national registration fee for all vehicles.
• 18:51
  Susan Howard: That got dropped from the reconciliation package that the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee was looking at last week.
• 18:58
  Susan Howard: It did raise some eyebrows.
• 19:01
  Susan Howard: It was probably, perhaps maybe a little not ready for prime time yet, but I believe that Chairman Graves is still interested in exploring the idea.
• 19:10
  Susan Howard: I mean, if you look, and what that would probably mean is some kind of phase out where we go away from the gas tax and we go on a flat fee, a per vehicle, just annual fee, so it's no longer tied to consumption of gasoline, it's not even a vehicle miles traveled fee, it is just a flat fee, regardless of what type of vehicle.
• 19:32
  Susan Howard: Again, as it's conceptualized now, that could change.
• 19:35
  Susan Howard: Of what type of vehicle?
• 19:35
  Susan Howard: Again, as it's conceptualized now, that could change.
• 19:37
  Susan Howard: Obviously, I think a lot of people would want to do some things there with vehicle size or weight or fuel efficiency to incentivize those.
• 19:44
  Susan Howard: You know, use those other kind of thinking of those other sort of policy levers.
• 19:46
  Susan Howard: So we'll have to see how that shakes out.
• 19:48
  Susan Howard: I mean, I don't think a gas tax increase is on the table and BMT I don't know.
• 19:53
  Susan Howard: I mean there was a little bit of progress made in the IJA with studying road usage charge at the national level, but it's not really come to anything yet formal.
• 20:03
  Susan Howard: That really seems like it's like what's the next step for the next reauthorization bill.
• 20:08
  Susan Howard: So we'll have to see how that goes.
• 20:10
  Jeff Cranson: Do you sense much of an appetite for that from members?
• 20:13
  Jeff Cranson: Michigan has in the governor's budget recommendation for fiscal year 26, a pilot, a road user pilot, and we've got a champion in our Senate Appropriations Transportation Committee who's really pushing for it to separately put it in their budget proposal.
• 20:31
  Jeff Cranson: I get mixed reactions, obviously from lawmakers here.
• 20:36
  Jeff Cranson: But what do you hear on the hill?
• 20:38
  Susan Howard: Still, I think, a steep hill to climb.
• 20:41
  Susan Howard: So lots of concerns about the impact on rural drivers, issues with data, you know, concerns about data security, all things that have been, you know, tested and looked at at the state level pilots They've really served as laboratories and really gleaned a lot.
• 20:56
  Susan Howard: We've been able to glean a lot of information from those level pilots They've really served as laboratories and really gleaned a lot.
• 20:57
  Susan Howard: We've been able to glean a lot of information from those state pilots.
• 21:01
  Susan Howard: And now we have four operational programs in four states where it's a voluntary road use discharge but you can opt into that option.
• 21:11
  Susan Howard: So there's just been a lot more at the state level and the needle has moved very, very slowly at the federal level in wanting to try anything nationally.
• 21:21
  Susan Howard: So I am not sure I think it gets mixed reviews.
• 21:25
  Susan Howard: It's certainly known about, regarded as a logical next step in terms of it is a user-based fee.
• 21:31
  Susan Howard: Next step in terms of it is a user-based fee.
• 21:33
  Susan Howard: It would be quote-unquote fair in terms of the you pay for what you use, that user pay principle.
• 21:45
  Susan Howard: But again it's just sort of been slow to take off and really have the federal piece kind of arms wrapped around.
• 21:49
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, I think what I hear and I'm sure you hear the same thing is that progressives always have concerns about low-income people and how it would hit them, and there are ways to mitigate that and some creative things.
• 22:02
  Jeff Cranson: And, interestingly enough, this is where some people on the left align with libertarians and organizations like the Reason Foundation, who are really pushing this hard and have lobbied for this at the state level in Michigan and, I'm sure, every other state.
• 22:20
  Susan Howard: Yeah, it can be strange bedfellows sometimes.
• 22:21
  Susan Howard: For sure, I think that, yeah, the concept is solid and, again, if you look at some of the things that have been tested at the state level, you can start to knock down some of those fears or concerns, but it still would be a big shift and a big change in terms of administration, in terms of ease, and those are things I think that have so far been stumbling blocks at the federal level, despite all the sound research and experience that states have demonstrated through their pilot programs.
• 22:59
  Jeff Cranson: Sound research and experience.
• 23:01
  Jeff Cranson: Well said, Susan.
• 23:02
  Jeff Cranson: Thanks, as always, for the update.
• 23:05
  Jeff Cranson: I wanted to do this ahead of the AASHTO spring meeting, where a lot of these things will be top of mind for people and will be discussed, so the timing is good.
• 23:13
  Jeff Cranson: Is there anything else you want to add to the conversation?
• 23:18
  Susan Howard: I don't think so I really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you and, yeah, appreciate it and love the podcast.
• 23:25
  Jeff Cranson: Thank you, Susan.
• 23:26
  Jeff Cranson: I'd like to thank you once more for tuning in to Talking Michigan Transportation.
• 23:30
  Jeff Cranson: You can find show notes and more on Apple Podcasts or Buzzsprout.
• 23:34
  Jeff Cranson: I also want to acknowledge the talented people who help make this a reality each week, starting with Randy Debler, who skillfully edits the audio, Jesse Ball, who proofs the content, Courtney Bates, who posts the podcast to various platforms, and Jacke Salinas, who transcribes the audio to make it accessible to all.