Latest / Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby / Your Partner Isn't the Enemy. So Why Does Every Conversation Feel Like a War? | Love | E570

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Your Partner Isn't the Enemy. So Why Does Every Conversation Feel Like a War? | Love | E570 · Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: My close friends already know this. Now you will too,
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: that before I was a psychologist, I was actually into
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• 1:00
  Speaker 2: Out Everybody starts freaking out. Everybody goes into a place
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: in which they're scared. They're on the defensive.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: It feels like you and your partner are having the
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: same fight over and over again. You're not alone. This
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: is a very common dynamic for a lot of couples
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: to get locked into this ongoing conflict and just get
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: stuck in it. Cannot resolve it, cannot find their way out.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: Some people disappear, some people shut down. And then some
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: people will go ahead and absorb way too much of
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: the stress in that moment.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: If you can relate, I'm so glad you're here for
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: this episode of Love, Happiness, and Success because we are
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: going into the heart of this. And you're going to
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: leave this episode with a new understanding of what is
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: really going on at the core and some actionable things
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: you can do to change the story, change the narrative,
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: have a productive conversation, and find your way forward. If
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: this is your first time tuning in, I'm so glad
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: you're here. I'm your host, Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby. I
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: am a marriage and family therapist, also a psychologist, and
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: a very proud board-certified coach here with you every week,
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: talking about your actualization, life satisfaction, relationships, and more. And today,
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: I'm so pleased to be with a very special guest,
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: my friend and colleague, Matthew Kaplan. who works with me,
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: a growing self. And Matthew is also a marriage and
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: family therapist, board-certified coach who specializes in exactly these kinds
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: of conundrums. And so, Matthew, hello.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: Hello, Elise. Thank you so much for having me.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: Thank you for being here, first of all. I could
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: not think of anyone better to dive into this with
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: me because, Matthew, the thing that I love about you
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: and your work is that you bring so much like
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: depth to it. And even though you are a coaching
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: therapist and we're always ultimately looking for, all right, so
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: what do we need to do differently? I think you
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: can really help people understand why it is feeling so
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: hard and that makes everything possible. So just to start
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: with that, you are such an experienced marriage and family therapist.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: And I know that probably eight in 10 couples who
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: come to you have this experience.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: It just turns into a fight. Somebody says, pass the salt,
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: and all of a sudden there's this reactivity and everybody's mad.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: What's going on?
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: Well, what's going on is that none of us was
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: really adequately prepared to encounter situations like this. And I
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: would propose that many, if not most of us, grew
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: up in family systems and even more broadly in a
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: culture that really has no idea what it's doing when
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: it comes to this issue.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: That is so true. I mean, I just had a
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: flashback to my own parents and they were not good
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: role models for like constructive conflict. There are all kinds
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: of things happened in my house growing up. When you
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: think about the issue, like what people really need to
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: understand that nobody teaches us, can you just kind of
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: talk us through like what the elements of being able
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: to handle friction points well are? What does that even involve?
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: Well, the way the conversation usually begins with people that
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: come in is that they want to talk about their communication.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: And when I hear communication is an issue, immediately what
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking about is what we feel like when we
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: are in these moments and what's happening in our bodies,
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: what's happening in our thinking, what's happening in our nervous
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: system while all of this is happening. We have not
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: for the most part, been prepared to recognize situations like
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: these as they need to be accurately understood, which is
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: as a sense of threat. When our partner is upset
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: with us or when we're upset with our partner, what's
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: happening below the level of your awareness is that you
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: feel threatened. And when you feel threatened by the disconnection
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: in the moment, or you're feeling blamed as a part
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: of that, whatever's happening. Oh, my partner is upset. They're
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: angry and they are perceiving me as a bit. I
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: am at fault for this. Everybody starts freaking out. Everybody
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: goes into a place in which they're scared. They're on
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: the defensive and we lose the ability to be curious
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: with one another. We lose the understanding focus in, in,
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: in hearing our partner. Um, We stop feeling safe, and
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: when humans stop feeling safe, we do a few different
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: predictable things.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: You're talking about that physiological fight or flight where all
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: of a sudden, a tense moment in the kitchen, and
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: looking at it from the outside, objectively, nothing terrible is happening,
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: but it feels that way on the inside. Your body
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: starts reacting to it. Your brain starts going. Mm-hmm. And
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: that makes it hard to show up well, being curious.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: Exactly. And it's fight, it's flight, it's freeze. So that shutdown,
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: that sense that you're talking to a brick wall and fun,
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: which is, and all of those are, those are the
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: things that we're talking about when we talk about being reactive.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: Some people are big and loud and reactive and it's
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: outward and you can see it. Some people disappear, some
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: people shut down. And then some people will go ahead
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: and absorb way too much of the stress in that moment,
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: which makes things calm down in the moment. But over
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: time leads to the kind of resentment that builds and
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: grows and lingers. And all of those ways of experiencing
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: those moments are equally reactive and something for us not
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: to judge or to remove from our experience. We really
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: can't do that. what we're more interested in doing is
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: understanding why this is happening and what it is we
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: can do about it instead. Yeah. Yeah.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: I'm just thinking about my own experience in these moments
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: in my own life. And this is so interesting. I
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: think I probably tend to be that, that last type
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: that you talked about. Like, I don't know if it's
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: a fawn response, but we're, I will deescalate everybody and like,
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: let's everybody calm down, you know, and like find a
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: solution and it's going to be okay. But, But you're right, though.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: There's not always a closure on my side. I make
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: it better for other people, but then I'm sometimes not
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: really okay long term. Can I ask what's your pattern
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: in this? You're married.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: I like to notice that we all have some amount
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: of predisposition to different reactions here. And then over the
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: course of a conflict, sometimes we'll go from one to
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: the other and we'll have our most front facing one.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: And then eventually a different one can.
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: Take a multi day. Oh yeah.
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: It can happen in the blink of an eye. So
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: I would tend to fawn. Initially I'm a fawner.
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: Is that not the pacify thing? Is that fawn?
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: That is fawn. Is that what.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: Therapists do in conflict? Did we just like land on something?
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: A research study. See, this stuff gets so weird and
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: indeed really complex because up at the surface, somebody who
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: fawns is looked at as fine. They're looked at as
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: not struggling. They're looked at as doing something that we
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: would all want people to do.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: Pro-social.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: Exactly. The scary thing here and something that's totally flying
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: under the radar for so many of us as a
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: collective is that appearing fine at the surface is not
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: the same thing as actually feeling fine and being fine.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: It's the same exact behavior up at the surface can
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: arise from a different place within yourself. And so this
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: is something for us to all explore in ourselves to recognize.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: It took me so long to be able to consciously
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: acknowledge to myself and to my partner that that I'm
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: not actually fine in those moments and what would what
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: would wind up happening before I had a better you
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: know a better sense a better understanding of myself and
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: the practice that I needed is I would fawn and
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: I would appear fine and I would appear calm. And
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: eventually that sort of just, you hit a threshold and
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: that's when I turn into fight. That's where I'm going
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: to go with it. I'm going to go to a
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: fight place from a fawn place. And that each and
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: every one of us has a pattern that we can
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: recognize in retrospect. The hard thing to do to be
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: able to learn from this stuff is to be in
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: a space in which you're not going to be judged
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: for it, in which you're going to be treated like
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: you're a human being experiencing something human and normal.
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: I love that. Thank you so much for saying that, Matthew.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, we all have our own patterns for good reasons, right?
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, we are the way we are for a reason.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: And there's not necessarily anything wrong or pathological or bad
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  Speaker 1: about anybody's natural reactions. But I think there are those
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: opportunities to take a look at what am I doing?
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  Speaker 1: And is this supporting the type of relationship that I
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: want to have? Or is even though I'm handling these
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: things the best I know how to do in the moments,
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: is it contributing to a longer term, not even conflict,
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: but like lack of resolution in some ways? Because what
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: you're talking about is maybe some of the underpinnings of
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: why it, quote, always turns into a fight. Of course
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: it does if it was never resolved the last time.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: Exactly. That's exactly how it goes. The technical term for
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: this is that there's a homeostasis in your relationship. There's
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: a thing that happens.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: You're going to have to define that term because I've
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: been out of grad school for a while now.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: So homeostasis is that way that whether you're talking about
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: the family that you come from or you and your partner,
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: there's the way that something's going to go. We all
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: figure out. Okay. Okay. what's going to happen. You know,
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: it's going to, you know, it's going to get your
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: partner frustrated or upset. You know, what's going to make
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: your partner feel insecure. You know, what is going to make,
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: you know, the way your conflict cycle is going to go,
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: you know, how it's going to start, how it's going
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: to escalate, how it's going to climax, how it's going
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: to come back down, how you're going to reconnect and
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: how then it's all going to happen again and again.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: And couples go through it and they go through it
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: and they go through it. And eventually we get tired.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: Everybody gets tired. And when you keep encountering the same
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: thing over and over, eventually the hopelessness or the frustration
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: with it can get so big that it's so stressful
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: that it exacerbates the problem and makes it even more intense.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: Us marriage and family therapists recognize the way that stress
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: is always this key activator of that homeostatic thing that's
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: going to happen over and over.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: Right. That people just sort of get like locked into
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: this very predictable dance that everybody hates, by the way,
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: but that it's hard to get out of that.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And this is where we wind up
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: looking at each other. I'm always thinking about the beginning
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: of this process with a couple or with an individual
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: if we're focused on this stuff. as we're looking at
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: each other as causing it. We're looking at each other.
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: It's not my fault. Exactly. No. And the hard part
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: here is that we're all right.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: Of course we are.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: We're all for the most part correct about it. But
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: as one of my therapists said to me once upon
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: a time, he said, well, Matt, you can be right
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: or you can be loving. And that kind of just
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: stopped me in my tracks, you know?
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And hey, let's just land here for a sec,
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: because I think that this is one of the things
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: that can be so hard for my clients to wrap
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: their brains around, and also for me too, personally. This
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: idea that when it comes to subjective reality, which is
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: what relationships are, by the way. This is not a
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: math problem. This is entirely subjective and also subjective. usually complex.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: And in a relationship, two different people, their life histories,
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: their wiring, their values, their wants, needs, and desires, many
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: different things can all be simultaneously true at the same time.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: So that two people in two different positions in a
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: conflict can both be absolutely, quote, right from... their point
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: of view and their perspective and that nobody needs to
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: change or adopt somebody else's point of view. That is hard,
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: I think, for a lot of people to embrace because
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: it seems like we're having conflict because of the differences.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: And if I could bring you over to my side
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: of the line, right, and help you see the world
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: according to me, then everything would be better.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: Have you noticed that? Oh, of course. That's like the
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: thing that we're encountering in our work, isn't it? And again,
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: I'm always going to put the burden of thought on
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: what are called the systems. Marriage and family therapists are
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: trained to think systemically versus individually. And what that means
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: is we're zooming out and we're thinking about a whole
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: context of a person's life, which Think about like a
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: Russian doll, you know, you're at the center and you
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: belong in these ever expanding rings of different systems. There's
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: you inside your family system, inside the region where you
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: grew up and the culture that you grew up in
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: and the religion that you grew up in and the
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: economic status and so on. It gets, we can go
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: on and on and on with this. But what we
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: want to understand is that there is no objective here.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: true correct thing if i forget to do something that
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: i was supposed to do if i i don't know
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: i was supposed to send a thing to school for
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: our kid and i forgot about it right and my
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: partner asks me about it and i'm immediately scared because
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: i've been noticed for doing something wrong i'm not just
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: experiencing that moment inside my brain and inside my body
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: I'm already reliving every single moment where somebody has been
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: mad at me or judged me because I screwed something up.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: Unconsciously. Like this is not a flood of memories. It
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: is a physical reaction. Yeah.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: It's like muscle memory. You know, it's like once upon
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: a time you had to learn to write or brush
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: your teeth or do anything it is you do. That's
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: the way we work when it comes to our feelings
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: and our reactions as well. Reflexively defensive.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: Because when I was a kid and I forgot something
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: and somebody yelled at me, that hurt me and it
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: made me feel defensive and I couldn't speak my mind
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: about it. And so that defense, if that's happening over
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: and over in your life, and I like to call
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: a spade a spade and say we live in a
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: very judgmental society. It's normal. It's even looked at as
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: a virtue. But that has a real life impact on
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: us that we get to pay attention to when we
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: do this work. And we get to learn about the
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: way that, yeah, I forgot something and now I'm defensive
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: and I'm perceiving you as judging me. Whether or not
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: you're judging me, I'm already perceiving you as judging me.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: I have decided.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: So I'm defending myself. My brain and my body know
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: that you are passing judgment on me right now. And
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: so I'm angry. about it how dare you I'm mad
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: at you how dare you do that to me you
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: can't judge me like that you screw things up too
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: sometimes and I don't say anything about it right yeah
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: so then my partner though is experiencing oh did you
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: do that thing it's just a question and now I'm
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: mad at you and I'm blaming you for being mad
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: yeah it's your fault I'm mad and now my partner
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: is mad Because they just experienced this totally other thing.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: And now we're like this. We're missing each other. Totally.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: We're not connecting up.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: She's like, did you fill out the form? And there's
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: this flood of irrational hostility. And she's like, what is
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: happening right now? But then, of course, why are you
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: talking to me this way? Why is it so hard?
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: I just asked you a question. Oh, my gosh. How
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: many of us have heard that, right? I know.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: It's wild. Oh, my goodness. It gets so frustrating. It's
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: so fast. And my partner might be feeling scared that
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: the teachers are judging us because we didn't send in
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: the thing.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: I struggle with that as well. I think they probably are.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: I have decided.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: They might be. Whether or not that's true is a
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: moot point. It probably is true, let's face it. But
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: it's a moot point because my partner is scared that
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: I'm reading frustration. Because again, none of us ever for
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: the most part, really got to look at these things
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: and understand these things while we were growing up.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: And I love this example because this is such a
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: simple thing, but you are both 12 dimensional people, right?
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, in this moment and have so many individual
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: like histories and reactions and assumptions and judgments and all
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: this stuff happening inside of each of you, which is
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: so complex. And then there's the intersection of what's going
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: on in the reactions to each other's reactions. And And
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: that is why it feels, my dear listeners, with me
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: and Matthew right now, so damn hard to break out
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: of this is because it's really a lot going on,
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: even if in the moment is like, I asked you
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: if you filled out the form and now I don't
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: like your tone. That's like what is happening on the
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: most superficial level. But wow, these roots go deep.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: And I like to look at things when we're working
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: in this space as what's showing up for you right
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: now in that reaction. It's not wrong or bad. It
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: is a barrier to your connection right now in the
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: moment and in the future. That reaction is a barrier
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: to your connection. But that's not saying that we need
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: to pass judgment on it. Because the thing is, that
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: reaction is just telling us something true about how you've
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: experienced life and relationships. But when we haven't gotten to
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: do what I call, let's put that where it belongs,
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: or let's take that home sometimes, if we're talking about
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: a home environment, what we're doing is we're feeling something
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: really intense sometimes. But it's disconnected from the actual experiences
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: in which that feeling took root in you and that reaction,
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: that defense took root in you. And until we get
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: to take a look at these things in order to
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: get out of this cycle, because we've come to this
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: space and we're so frustrated and we just want it
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: all to stop and go away and we're confused and despairing.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: When we can put that feeling where it belongs... suddenly
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: we're going to have a totally different understanding of what's
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: happening when your partner says, hey, did you do that thing?
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: And you didn't. And boom, your body goes into a
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: fear mode. Your body goes into self-defense mode. We learn
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: to recognize that and put those feelings where they belong
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: so that we can stop throwing gasoline on the fire.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: That is, you just asked me a question. I got
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: scared and defensive about it. I blamed you for that.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: You got defensive. And now we're both just defending ourselves
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: at each other, which makes us feel even more disconnected.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. Matt, this is so good. I want to continue this.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: I have been so engrossed by everything you're saying that
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: I've lost track of time. We need to pause and
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: take a super quick break. On the other side, can
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: we continue here? And I'd love to get your insight
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: into some actionable things that we can all do just
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: in order to get more visibility into our own reflexive reactions,
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: and then maybe even how that's impacting it with... The
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: hope of being able to do some of the work
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: that you're talking about, right? Like be able to stop
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: throwing gasoline on the fire and start showing up in
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: a way that can lead to a better outcome. Can
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: we do that on the other side of the break?
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 23:06
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  Speaker 1: checkout where you heard about them, let them know love, happiness,
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  Speaker 1: and success sent you slash motivated you because this is
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• 25:11
  Speaker 1: it was on love, happiness, and success. It's the very
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: best way to support the show. So you guys were
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: back with my friend and colleague, Matthew Kaplan, who is
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: a marriage and family therapist and board certified coach who
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: works with me. at Growing Self. And Matthew, just before
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: we took a break, you were doing just, I loved
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: the way you were just mapping out what is really
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: going on when people get stuck in these conflict cycles
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: in a relationship. There are all these unconscious reactions that
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: we all engage in, whether we like it or not.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, we just do. And then how it can
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: turn into this very like perpetual dance that couples just
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: do together. And it can feel so darn hard to
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: get out of this conflict cycle because the roots go
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: so deep. And I loved the way that you explained
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: all of that to us. That was great. And just
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: before we took the break, I'd asked you if on
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: the other side, We could talk a little bit more
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: about how to begin understanding what's going on inside of
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: you in these moments. Because I think that our natural tendency,
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: this is true for me. Maybe it's true for you. Well,
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: I don't know. You've done so much work on yourself.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: Maybe you've transcended all of this. But I think the
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: natural reaction is to really get focused on what your
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: partner is doing or not doing. what they're saying what
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: they're doing how they're coming at you right and not
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: anything about oh what's going on inside of me right
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: now so how do we start to change.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: That we begin with noticing we for the for the
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: beginning of any relationship that i have with a couple
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: or an individual the focus at the beginning is always
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: going to be setting an intention so we're being very
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: purposeful here this requires we can choose to be intentional
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: we can't choose to do the thing every time but
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: we can choose to notice the thing when it happens
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: okay so we're setting realistic expectations for ourself and what
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: i ask people to do is take a look at
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: what's happening in your body There's discomfort in your body.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: It might be in your shoulders. It might be in
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: your jaw. You might be clenching your muscles somewhere. You
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: might be flushed. You might be pacing. You might be
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: gesticulating wildly with your hands. Whatever it might be, there's
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: something that we can notice about your body. So we're
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: noticing what we're feeling in our bodies. We're noticing what
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: we're paying attention to. attention itself is a huge source
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: of information while we're doing this work. So the question
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: would be like, when your partner asked you that question,
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: where did your attention go? Okay. Because again, our attentions,
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: you know, in a, in a situation like this, and
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: this is a real life example, by the way, this
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: is the kind of thing that has happened so many times.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: I love it. My partner told his story. I'll tell
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: my stories too. It's fine.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: It's just us. So once upon a time, I let
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: the registration on our, one of our cars expire. Okay.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: This is a, this is a while back.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: I'm not good at mail. I hate mail. I hate
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: everything about it.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: Okay. I, you know, this is stuff like that. I,
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: I struggle with it for sure, but then no big deal,
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: except that the day after Christmas, our car got stolen
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: out of our driveway and, And that is how the
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: registration expiring came to be an issue. Because when your
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: car has been stolen and recovered and it's in an
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: impound lot, you need a registration to reclaim your vehicle.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: God damn it. All right.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: It's just like, are you kidding me? Like, oh, I'm
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: a walking facepalm. Oh my goodness. So at that point,
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: I'm not paying attention to the fact that this is
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: very distressing for my partner. My partner is upset. I mean, naturally,
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: somebody's going to be upset. I said I was going
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: to do that. I did not do that in a
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: timely manner. It expired. And something happened that I didn't control.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: Our car was stolen. Okay, that sucks. But now what's
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: happening is I'm in a place of defense because your
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: upset is making me feel really guilty.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: Okay. So my attention is not on connecting to my
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: partner my attention is not on saying i get why
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: you're upset i drop the ball on that simply acknowledging
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: something my attention is on self-defense and again i could
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: go down a huge rabbit hole of talking about why
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: but for the sake of this conversation i'm noticing that
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: my attention is not on connecting to my partner in
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: that moment i'm noticing that my attention is on defending
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: that i'm not bad or i'm not worthy of judgment
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: about this yeah At which point my partner is feeling
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: upset because there's not room for her to feel feelings
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: in this situation. If she feels upset or she feels
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: scared about things, she doesn't have my compassion. She doesn't
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: have my understanding. She has an angry husband that's mad
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: at her for feeling big feelings because I'm too guilty
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: about what I did and I'm feeling frustrated that she's
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: judging me about it.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: Okay. That makes perfect sense.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: And when it's happening, I'm sick in my stomach. When
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: it's happening, I'm starting to pace a lot. That's one
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: of my big indicators that I'm starting to go where
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: I don't want to go.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: But that physiological agitation, like that movement.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: My hands feel buzzy. I can sort of feel that energy,
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: which as it turns out is probably like adrenaline. My
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: body is literally preparing to fight. because there's no difference
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: for your nervous system between a predator stalking you and
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: your wife who's upset at you. It is that simple.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: Your body goes into survival mode. And so I'm noticing
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: that about myself. So I've got what's happening in my body,
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: sick to my stomach, I'm buzzing, I'm pacing, I'm getting
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: agitated physically, visibly, and I'm not really paying attention to that.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: My attention is on her judging me and knowing that
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: she's judging me and knowing that that's mean and she shouldn't,
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: even though she's just kind of freaked out about the situation.
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: What am I thinking? That's another thing I'm paying attention to.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: We call this narrative. What's the story I'm assigning to
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: what's happening right now? Because there's a story and that
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: story is a part of the homeostasis that we were
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: talking about a little while ago in a conflict cycle.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: I'm interpreting something with a story that is not actually
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: happening right now, but I am thinking is happening right now. Okay,
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: so we've got my, what's happening in my body? Where's
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: my attention? What's happening in my thinking? And what we're
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: not noticing is that we're feeling stuff in these moments.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: I'm feeling guilty. I'm feeling ashamed of myself. I'm feeling irresponsible.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: I'm feeling disconnected from my partner. So I'm alone. I'm scared.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: I'm all these things. But she's not seeing any of that.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: And for a long time, I didn't have the words
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: to describe that. I just looked angry at the surface.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: I was. I was angry.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: Well, I think that's so true for so many of us, right?
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: Like we have all of this complexity coming alive inside
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: of us that we are not connected to. We're not
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: consciously aware of it. And our partners have no idea
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: because on the outside, we seem a different way that
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: it's like obscuring the reality. And that the same thing
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: is happening inside of her at the same time. And
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: it's just this like, there's no access to each other's
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: deeper experience.
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: We can't go like this. Just miss each other.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sharing this story. And I
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: just want to, like, this is so relatable. I mean,
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: even though I think we all have different ways of
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: handling these moments, this is what happens to every single
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: one of us. You know, I was just reflecting on
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: what do I do? And I think I, yeah, probably
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: have all those same experiences, but go into make it better,
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: solve the problem, like disconnect. I don't know. I think
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: I probably have more avoidant tendencies. I'm not going to
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: engage and get mad, but I'll probably shut down a
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: little bit is probably my reaction to these kinds of things,
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: which is equally as hard, right? Because then it's like
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: the conversation just stops. That isn't cool either. And so
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: for all of our friends who are here with us,
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: maybe this is a moment just to sit and think
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: about the last time you had a tough moment in
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: your relationship. what was really going on inside of you?
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: What was your reaction? What were your feelings? What was
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: your physiological response? What story did you start telling yourself?
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: What did you do? And how did that maybe contribute
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: to this lack of attunement that you're talking about? And, um,
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: I don't know if we, if we were to give
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: our friends like even a a journaling prompt or two.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: It's like, well, hold on. Is that what you would
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: do with this? Or this is so darn experiential. And
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: one of the things that I've struggled with so many times,
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: like even on this podcast, Matthew, just to be completely
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: honest with you, I think that people like want to
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: know what to do. And I absolutely want to give
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: them actionable things like here's some journaling prompts, here's whatever.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: But I think that you and I also know that
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: a lot of this, it's not informational. It is experiential.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: And so that's what I'm trying to crack into is like,
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: how could somebody help themselves have the experience that would
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: give them visibility into this in the wild, so to speak?
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: Or is this really why somebody needs to come in
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: and talk to someone just like you? to help them
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: have that experience in a productive environment that actually changes
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: their understanding of themselves and their partner. Because that's not
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: something that we can tell. You know what I mean?
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: It's something that you have to do. I know that's
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: a really big question and it might be unfair to you,
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: but I'm just, I'm curious.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: Not at all. It's absolutely on point because you're right.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: The information itself is not Everything. I remember being at
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: a point in my own growth process where I thought
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: that understanding these things would change how I react. And
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: it's a necessary stair step to get there, but it's
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: not the there that we're trying to get to. The
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: reason we come into a space that you hold and
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: that I'm facilitating is because what we have learned to do,
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: what we've been trained in, is how to attune. You
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: mentioned that word attunement a moment ago. And in a nutshell,
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: what attunement is, it's what it feels like to be
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: heard in a way that is so clear that you're
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: being understood accurately in a way that resonates with you.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: And the person listening to you isn't squirmy about it.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: They're not trying to fix your problem right away. They're
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: not trying to tell you to look on the bright side.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: or they're not giving you a hot take based on
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: what they think. They're genuinely glad to be listening to
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: you and understanding you while they also have confidence in
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: you that it's going to be okay. This is normal.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: This is natural. We're alike. I share this experience. I
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: know that you can figure out what to do with this.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: I know that you can do this. And that is
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: just simply so different than when I look out at
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: the world and I look at my own experiences and
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: I hear people talk to me about their experiences, that's
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: hard to come by. It's really hard to come by.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: It's rare.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: And it's a human need. I, we, we call that
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: a human need. You need food, water, shelter, clothing. You
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: need attunement to be able to experience wellbeing. And it's
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: something when we experience it, it becomes a part of us.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: It's like, We can think about it like getting charged
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: up like a battery, right? So we need that source
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: that when we're getting depleted or when we're having a
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: hard time, I know that I can go to you
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: and get charged back up. I'm not blaming your parents, okay?
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: I'm not blaming anybody's parents. And I'm not blaming my
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: parents or my wife's or anybody's. As always, the problem,
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: the fault, the only fault that exists in this space
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: is in the way the systems run, in the way
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: things collectively are done. That's where the problem is, not
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: inside you. You're suffering from the way things are done.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: It's not your fault. But you are empowered, and that's
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: what accountability is. You are empowered to learn how to
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: do something differently. So we come to a space like
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: this because what you can do and what I can
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: do And we can begin from a place of what
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: I love about couples is that you can't hide from me.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: You can't. You're just sitting in front of me.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: Absolutely not. Individual therapy, people can hide even from us,
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: but not couples.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: But couples know your partner says that thing or expresses
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: that perspective. or does that gesture. And I'm going to
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: see your side eye or I'm going to see your,
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: I'm going to watch you get sort of like yanked
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: into something right in front of me. And that's going
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: to give us so much helpful information. And when that happens,
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to be like, hey, what's wrong with you?
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: And I'm not going to chastise you. I'm going to
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: take it as a moment that we can learn from
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: and say, oh, I noticed that when your partner says
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: that or does that or whatever it might be, I
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: noticed that something big comes up in you. And I
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: wonder if we can take a look at that. And
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: I'm going to do so in a way that I'm
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: a human, so I might not get it perfect all
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: the time. But if I don't get it right, I'm
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: going to take accountability for that myself. And I'm going
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: to say, you're right. I was a little, I was
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: a little harsher. I was a little pushier. I was
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: a little impatient with you there. But ultimately what we're
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: going for is, oh, there's something that needs to be
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: understood about you as a human being who's lived in
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: the positions you've lived in your life, who's gone through
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: what you've gone through in life, who to some extent
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: you got your needs met, like being connected, feeling somebody's
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: attuned presence with you. And to some extent not. And
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: that's why that's happening for you. Not because you're angry
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: as a person, not because you're impatient or because people
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: come in and they say like, I'm scared that I'm
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: not empathic or something like that. I'm scared that I'm
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: really emotionally immature or I need to work on that.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: And they think this is me. This is what I am.
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: which is what we call the fixed mindset. And what
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: we're going for here is the growth mindset, which is, no,
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: that doesn't define you that this reaction comes up. You're
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: completely understandable that that comes up for you. Let's notice
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: it when it comes up for you so that you
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: can learn to be the one who understands in the moment.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: Because that's the thing. When I'm defensive, like I was
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: talking about after the car got stolen with the expired registration,
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: I am feeling a lifetime of messing stuff up and
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: having people be angry at me about it or having
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: people question me about it or what's wrong with you? Like,
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: why can't you just, you know, that question that everybody's heard,
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: why can't you just? So when I feel those big feelings,
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: if I don't know that there's a reason that's so
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: much bigger and so much older than this relationship, I'm
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: going to say it's your fault that I feel this way.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: You're making me feel this way. Okay. And in a
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: space like we can access here, what we get to
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: do is say, oh, this feeling comes up for me
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: when you. And that's a totally different way of understanding it.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: That puts us in a completely different way of thinking
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: about what's happening. And it opens up this whole range
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: of ways of interacting then. that we just didn't know
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: existed before because we never experienced them.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: Matthew, this is, wait, I'm so sorry. I just, I'm
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: aware of the time. We have to take another super
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: quick break, regrettably, because I am hanging on your every word.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: And I want to continue this on the other side,
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: but also for those of our friends who might need
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: to hop off this podcast. You guys, Matthew Kaplan. So
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: this is why I wanted to bring you on the show, Matthew,
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: because you have so much depth. You're so good at
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: what you do. And I know that the last thing
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: you're ever going to do is promote yourself. So I'm
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: going to do it for you. Anybody listening wants to
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: come and talk to Matthew about exactly this, growingself.com forward
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: slash Matthew. And the thing I love, Matthew, is that also,
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: and I don't want to genderize this, but as a man,
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: I think you are so especially helpful to not just men,
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: but also people in heterosexual relationships involving men. Where you
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: are able to create a very different experience and expectation
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: of what is possible for people that they might not
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: be hearing from other places. I mean, well, let's talk
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: about this on the other side of the break, going
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: into the systemic factors and like what that does to
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: men specifically.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 44:05
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• 46:16
  Speaker 1: So you guys, we're back with my colleague, Matthew Kaplan.
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: You would like to talk to Matthew again, growingself.com forward
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: slash Matthew. But Matthew, you were talking about just how
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: so much becomes possible when you can get visibility into yourself,
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: take accountability for that, totally change the experience everybody is
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: having when you're saying, I'm having my fawning got to
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: get out of here stuff triggered right now and i
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: need to calm down and stay in the ring with
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: you and owning that as opposed to being like you're
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: making me feel a certain way you're a bad person
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: because you're not handling it xyz like going into your
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: own judgment and um what we can do with this.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: So I want to continue. Before we do, though, I'm
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: noticing that a word has come up so many times
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: over our conversation, and that is the word judgment. And
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: you've talked about how this is frequently a character at
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: the party when conflict is happening. And you also said
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: something that I thought was so intriguing. It was a
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: little a while ago in our conversation, but that it
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: was judgment is virtuous in our culture. I was like,
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: what does he mean by that? So can you just
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: tell us your perspective about judgment and how it impacts
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: these situations and what we could do with it?
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Judgment is a norm. We all judge, right? I mean,
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: in this day and age, you see a video online
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: of somebody's worst moment and you say, that's what that
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: person is. And oh my God, how could they?
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: Attribution theory, right?
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: Exactly. And we come, so many of us come from
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: legacies in which judgment and punishment are looked at as
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: necessary ways to teach you how to not be bad.
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: You are bad. I'm going to punish you. I'm going
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: to judge the badness to help you not be bad anymore.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: It's important that you know this bad thing about yourself
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: so that you can knock it off, so that you
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: can be good. And what's missing here, the way we
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: look at kids throwing a tantrum is bad behavior. And
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: we make sure that they know that that's bad and
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: I know that that's bad. But what's happening for the
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: kid is, I don't have the part of my brain
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: that prevents me Right.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: Like my little five-year-old when she, well, let's see. She
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: wanted to wear something to school this morning that she
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: could not wear to school, just functionally. It's like, it
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: just wouldn't work.
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: Dinosaur costume. I get it. I have an eight-year-old. They
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: have ideas.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: It's great.
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: And she was really angry. She was really, really angry
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: about that. But a five-year-old, the part of the brain
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: that prevents you from doing something impulsive does not exist
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: for the five-year-old yet. It's called your prefrontal cortex. It's
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: your executive brain. It doesn't exist, but people don't know that.
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: People think that kids are little mini adults and you
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: should be able to not freak out but the kid's
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: just having a feeling. The kid's just learning what feelings are.
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: The kid doesn't understand. She can't say to me, Dada,
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm really upset with you because I really
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: wanted to wear that dress and you wouldn't let me
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: wear that dress. And I'm feeling really sad and confused
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: and disappointed about that. My daughter can't say that to me.
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: Most 40 year olds can't say that.
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: It's like, I'm the work in progress on it. And
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: so it's my job as the parent to help her
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: understand that. It's my job as a parent to know, oh,
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: my kid is having a really big feeling. This might
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: be the first time she's feeling this really big feeling.
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: And it's my job to know that when she is
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: lashing out about it or freaking out or throwing a
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: tantrum because I put the flour for the pancakes in
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: the bowl and she wanted to do it or something
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: like that, That's not a kid being bad. That's not
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: a bad child. And what we typically do with that
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: is we punish it to try to make it go away.
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: Oftentimes we'll separate the child from us. No, you're going
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: into timeout right now. Again, I'm not judging you parent
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: out there for doing that because I know that we
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: all learn to do that. I have that same impulse.
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: There's That was the prevailing wisdom, has been the prevailing
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: wisdom for a long time. So judgment is looked at
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: as a necessary thing to help people grow. What we
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: understand as therapists and as coaches is that judgment doesn't
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: do anything for anybody except lock us deeper and deeper
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: into the same patterns. There's this wonderful, brilliant thinker and
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: clinician from a long time ago, who created person-centered therapy
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: and thanks Carl Rogers. And he said, when I accept
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: myself as I am, then I can change. And we
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: don't just accept ourselves. The human need is to be
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: accepted by other people. We need to know that we
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: are seen with accuracy. Yeah, I freaked out there. The
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: kid freaked out. Oh, you're having a hard time right now.
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: Let me understand you. oh, and now I'm going to
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: teach you. And no, it's not going to prevent the
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: next tantrum, but it is going to create a grownup
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: that knows how to say, hey, it hurt my feelings
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: when you said that. Oh, so good. Wow.
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: And I mean, just to expand on this a little bit,
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: like how amazing to be in a relationship with somebody
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: who has that kind of accepting, curious attitude. I'm also
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: just thinking like, My experience growing up, I think, was
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: probably a bit different than normal conventional gender norms in
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: a lot of ways, which I'm glad for. It's created
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: other problems, right? But like, for example, my mom was
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: incredibly emotionally attuned, emotionally. So I never got in trouble
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: for having feelings ever. And I think I was able
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: to carry some of that forward into my own family.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: And so like, I have other issues. It's not like
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: it was perfect by any means, but I'm thinking this,
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: this past weekend, even my eight year old, we were
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: at the pumpkin patch and she wanted something. And my
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: first response to her question was no, you, I think
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: it was, she wanted some toy from the gift shop.
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: And I was like, you have about eight of those
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: in your bedroom right now. No, we're not spending $ 20
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: to get you another one. And she came back with
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: like a plan. She like got, tickets and was like, listen,
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: this is how this is going to work. And I
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: think that it can be like we all have these
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: choices in these moments, right, to feel frustrated of like
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: this relentless kid. I said no. And now she's like
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: continuing to campaign for this and coming back in with
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: all these other perspectives. And I think that we can
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: go into that place with our partners, too. Or, you know,
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: this idea that there's really light and dark in all things.
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: And in that moment, I was like, you know what?
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate your tenacity and You are a strategic
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: problem solver. You have a lot of confidence and you
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: believe in your own ability to like get what you want.
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: And I actually said that out loud to her and
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: I was like, good job. And she, I, she just
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: had this like, yeah, I am. And cause I was like,
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: like back to what you were saying, like that is
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: the adult that I want to send forth in the
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: world is this like confident woman who can figure stuff
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: out and advocate for herself. And I think that when
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: we could take this type of attitude, even with ourselves
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: and like, how does this make sense? What is the
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: function of this? How do we actually use this in
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: a way and like in an accepting way? And of
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: course we can look at the outcome. Is this really
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: getting me what I want? If not, why not? I
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: have the agency to change. Certainly. But going back to
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: that acceptance idea, it's really powerful. And we all have
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: those choices in the moment. Do we judge and punish?
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: Or do we like, maybe it's okay.
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: So many people don't feel like it's a choice. And
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: the determining factor here, Lisa, that was mom's state of being.
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: I know, but I get criticized, though, for being... too
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: permissive right because that's.
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: The norm because that's the norm right you know and
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: systems don't exist there's not like a building that's called
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: like the system and like there's like a nefarious bunch
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: of people operating the.
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: System the illuminati maybe that's what they're.
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: Doing maybe hey i mean who knows i don't know
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: i'm But the system lives in us. And when anybody
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: does something different from what the systems teach us and expect,
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: everybody else gets nervous. If you don't, if you're not
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: hardline with your kid there and other people have learned
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: that's the thing to do, they're now feeling this discomfort
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: about you doing something like that. Right. Oh, you know,
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: this is going to create whatever blah, blah, blah entitlement,
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: but it hides in plain sight. You just, You just said,
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: you showed us your daughter saying, I am, right? This
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: is identity that you're building here. You showed her that
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: she's capable of hearing a no, of thinking it through,
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: making a plan, communicating her plan, changing a mind. Yeah.
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: And she didn't have to melt down or throw a
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: tantrum about it. That's because she knows that mom's listening.
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: That's because she knows that mom is open to her
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: and can change her mind. And mom's not going to
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: see me as spoiled. Mom's not going to see me
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: in any kind of judgmental way. And that made, do
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: we want our kids like, do we want our kids?
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: Totally. Totally. No, I mean, like how many people do
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: we work with as therapists and coaches who really struggle
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: with confidence in themselves, belief in their ability to influence others, right?
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: Agency over what happens in their lives. And I'm not
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: trying to put myself on a pedestal. I mean, I
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: make all kinds of parenting mistakes. But I think going
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: back to how we handle what is coming at us
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: emotionally from other people. But Matthew, I know that I
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: don't have all the time in the world with you, sadly,
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: although I'm already plotting to have you back on the
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: show again because you are amazing and I love it
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: so much. But before we end, I really want to
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: hear your thoughts going back to this idea of a
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: system and the particularly gender norms that not everyone but
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: many people are raised in and how that influences us.
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: you know, how we show up or what we expect
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: from others. And in particular, what it can do to men.
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: And I have to tell you, and this is just,
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: I don't know what to do with this, Matthew. I
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: have so many times on this podcast, actually, I'll have
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: like people come on the show and they're great. Like
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: I would not do this with anyone who I didn't
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: like and value and they have great ideas. But one
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: of the patterns that I've noticed over the last couple
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: of years in a more intense way Are people coming
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: in wanting to talk about who and what men are
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: and how that impacts women? Women being the main character
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: of this movie, having to deal with these men who
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: are showing up in this monolithic way, sort of obtuse, selfish,
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: irresponsible men. putting the burden of everything on women. And
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: so I'm always going to advocate for the male perspective
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: and experience in these conversations because yes, selfish, self-absorbed men
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: exist and selfish and self-absorbed women also exist. And all
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: of the men that I know in my personal life,
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: including you, Matthew, you are such a deep thoughtful emotionally
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: aware sensitive person and like how do you cope with
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: that narrative first of all And how do you try
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: to support men who might be in these relationships where
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: there's this core belief about who they are and what
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: they are capable of that is just not true, but
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: is fostered by our culture?
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: This is where I think judgment is such an important
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: subject in our conversation, because in a nutshell, what we've
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: all been taught is that if somebody's having a hard time,
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: somebody's at fault. If somebody's feeling feelings, somebody's at fault.
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: There's always got to be a focal point for blame
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: in the situation.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that something's wrong, right?
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: Yes, and you are selfish. Now, again, back to complexity,
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: there are levels on which that's true, right? Yeah. I've
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: worked with couples that they both work Both parents are working.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: They've got one or two or three little kids. And
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: then on Saturday, it doesn't occur to dad that going
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: and playing 18 rounds of golf is burdensome for his partner.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: That is selfish behavior. But why does that selfish behavior exist?
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: And why is it that when we try to talk
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: about it, defense is what comes up about it? And
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: the problem is, men have been deprived of attunement. Men
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: have not been on the receiving end of softness and
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: gentleness and people who are ready to say, hey, you
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: had big feelings there. You had a big reaction. What's
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: going on there? When you think about what's out there
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: in the popular wisdom or ways of thinking about men,
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: what are men? Well, women are emotional and men are logical, right?
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: And men, what are our expectations of men? That we're stoic,
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: that we're consistent, that we don't have feelings, that we
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: are in some way, shape, or form fundamentally different than women.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: And we're not. There are some obvious differences between men
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: and women. But when it comes to our emotional needs,
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: there's no difference whatsoever.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: Emotional capability and capacity.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: Exactly. And this is where in the nature nurture kind
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: of debate, we've got a massive amount of nurture as
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: a problem that men are afflicted with. And because that's
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: the case, because we're talking about a denial of the
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: meeting of men's emotional needs, not I'm not saying that's
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: mutually exclusive as in women have had their emotional needs
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: met and men haven't. I'm saying nobody has. Right. But
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: there's been an imbalance in which women are expected to
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: patch that over, smooth that over for men.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: And if they don't, they are subject to a man's
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: reaction and they caused the man's reaction. We should know
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: better than to expect this of the man. We should
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: work around the man's reactions, work around the man's feelings.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: And that is a form of being victimized. Men everywhere
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: know it and feel it, but they're also reacting to it.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: They don't know how to put words to it, and
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: they certainly don't know what to do instead.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: Being victimized. Are you saying like the woman in the
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: story would be being victimized or the man because of being.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: Everybody. Everybody.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: OK, like we're all being influenced by these messages, narratives,
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: forces in a way that's not good for anybody in
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: that story. Yeah.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: We're all being set up for failure. If if what
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: do we say to little boys? Stop crying. Toughen up.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: Man up. All these things that every single. man heard,
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: has heard in his life. Every single man has witnessed
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: other men talking to men that way. Women have learned
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: to talk this way to little boys and growing young men.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: Boys will be boys, right? We don't treat men as
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: if they are capable of this. And then we fall
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: in love.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: And get married.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: And then men have no idea what to do. It's like,
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: how do I describe to you what it's like to
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: go skydiving until you've done it. I can't describe, you
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: just have to know what it's like. What's it like
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: to get drunk for the first time before you've been drunk?
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: We can't really describe that to you. And so men
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: are set up for failure. So are women. I'm not, again,
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: it's not at the exclusion of, it's just everybody. And
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: then when, when stuff gets real, you get married, You
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: get more responsibilities. Your career is growing. You have kids.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: And now you didn't learn growing up that, in my case,
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: when there's a kid's birthday party this weekend, somebody needs
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: to buy a present, right? Somebody needs to buy a
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: present for that kid's birthday party.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: Or a gift card from a gas station just saying,
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: you know, we make it work.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: I try not to buy four-year-old gift cards, you know?
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: Gas stations have all kinds of stuff, man. Oh, that's true.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: That's true. I don't have gift bags a lot of
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: the time. That's true. Yeah. But somebody's got to do that.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: And that didn't occur to that man because nobody ever
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: expected that man to do that.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: But then for that man's partner, if she's already thinking
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: through a bajillion things about that kid's schedule and doctor's
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: appointments and everything, sometimes it's going to be, you know,
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: there's going.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: To be that.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: And like somebody needed to think about this. And that
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: man's over here thinking, why are you so mad at
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: me all the time? Why do you just get mad
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: at me about stuff? And she's over here thinking, he
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: has no idea what I do all day, every day.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: He has no idea what's on my mind all the time.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: It's the internal experience. But I will also just say, yes,
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: that I think in our culture, women can definitely occupy
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: that space. But I think that is also a a
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: structural thing in the hypothetical family where you have one
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: person who has a real big job and who is maybe,
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: you know, the primary breadwinner and the other person really
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: is more of the, in that caretaker role. And I
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: think even more commonly these days, that is not necessarily
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: the man in the world. Like I know that that's
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: not the dynamic at your house. Your wife is a physician.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: I think at my house, you know, my husband is
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: more the caretaker. We had another one of our wonderful colleagues,
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: you know, Silas from growing self, he came on and
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: talked about that. He's with an emergency room doc and
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: he is the one making dinner. And so I think
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: it's that who's keeping the wheels on the bus experience
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: that many times in our culture does fall to women,
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: but not always. And I just want to also say
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: that out loud, that this is not a carved into
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: the marble tablets way it is.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And that's how, that's exactly how it goes in my, in,
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: in my family as well, between me and my wife.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: There's everything that's on her mind that she's dealing with
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: that she's attending to. There's everything that's on my mind
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: that I'm thinking about. I'm thinking about what's for lunch
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: for our kids today and what's for dinner and getting
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: up in the morning with them. And do we have
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: clean laundry and all kinds of stuff that's on my mind.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: And there's still not, there's still all this stuff that
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: I'm going to miss all the time. And the hazard
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: here is that Basically, we've all got too much responsibility
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: right now, right? Like so much is expected of us.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, when I was a kid growing up, it
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: was like you go outside and you play all day.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: But now parents have to be like very involved and
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: everything is scheduled. And it's a whole different world these days.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: So when I'm stressed and tired and depleted because our
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: kids were up all night and I've been sleeping terribly
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: for five years because I have two tiny kids. And
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: my wife is exactly that stressed. And we're both that
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: stressed at that exact same time. That's the perfect environment
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: or whatever the opposite of that. That's exactly when it's
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: going to happen that if she's overwhelmed for a second
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: and frustrated about something, I'm immediately in that place of like, well,
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: you don't see me either. Yeah. Right. A common example
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: would be if a man has that big job, right?
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: And he's really stressed about it and he's worried about
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: it all the time. Or women.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: And he's... Anybody.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm just thinking about... Yeah, anybody.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking about the way that men are totally unprepared
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: and hamstrung. But it could... You're absolutely right. There's no
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: fixed way that these gender roles play out in relationships.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: It can be any of the above. Yeah. But what's
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: happening here is that he's worried and that's occupying attention
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: and what he's not noticing or what she's not noticing
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: while their attention is occupied in the worry out the
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: home is that there's all this stuff happening all the time.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: And partners wind up feeling really lonely and really sad
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: and really scared and really overwhelmed and overburdened with things.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: And so then if there's any drop of frustration expressed,
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 2: everybody winds up completely on the defensive right away. You
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: don't see me and what I'm dealing with. And that's
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: what we do because now I'm feeling, again, judgment. I'm
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: feeling you blaming me for why you're so upset, right?
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: And my attention's not with you. It's not caring about you.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: It's not understanding you anymore. My attention is on defending
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: myself against the accusation that I am at fault for
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: why you feel so bad right now. And then that's
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: just going to hurt. Everybody's going to hurt. And everybody's
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: going to feel scared and nobody's going to know what
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: to do about it. For a sec, can I speak
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: to what we can do about it? You know, because
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: I don't want to leave people with like nothing.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, this has been just like such a masterclass, honestly.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: And I just, I love the empathy and the compassion
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: that you have here for everyone involved, but please let's,
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: and I know that we need to wrap this up soon,
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: but I would love to hear your thoughts, even some,
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: some easy takeaways and, and, First of all, first and foremost,
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: the one big takeaway that I think we talked a
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: lot about is to get awareness of yourself and to
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: be able to understand your own reactions, make sense of
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: them yourself so that you can articulate them to someone else.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: And that, I think, is huge. So thank you for
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: teaching us that. What else would you want to recommend
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: or leave people with as like, here's some things you
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: might want to try differently?
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: So If you notice yourself defending yourself, you're disconnecting. You're
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: disconnecting each other, right? Any amount of defense that shows
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: up is something that I myself am capable of recognizing.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: I myself am capable of making a different choice in
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: the moment. I'm not saying it's easy or naturally fluid
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: for when we get started in this to make that choice.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: I'm saying I can. When I talk about accountability with
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: a couple or an individual that I'm working with, I'm
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: not saying you're accountable for this because you're at fault
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: for this. I'm saying you're accountable for this in the
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: sense that you're empowered to do this different thing right now.
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: As a coach, I am most heavily guided by values-based coaching.
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: Because values are like a compass for us or a lighthouse.
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: They're a thing for me to follow. Right. when the
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: game speeds up on me, so to speak, right? When
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: things are getting intense, I've gotten the opportunity to explore
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 2: those values in a space like this with an attuned present.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: And something that I've landed on is a value of
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: mine that I'm constantly referring back to is, is how
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 2: I act based on how you act. Is my functioning
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: contingent on your functioning?
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that enmeshment thing, that like, I need you to
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: be a certain way so I can be a certain way.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: Right. You got angry at me, so I got angry
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: at you, right? You started getting escalated, so I escalated too.
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: That way that if you're going up, I'm going up too.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: That doesn't align with my values. It definitely shows up
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: in my reactivity, but that's something that I have that
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: I can watch, that I can be aware of to
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: see myself. If my partner is upset and I'm upset too,
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: The question I'm always asking myself is, does that match
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: with my values? Does that match with my values? Oh, okay.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: And I can see it now. I didn't used to
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: be able to see it, but now I can see
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 2: it when it's happening. And it allows me an opportunity
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 2: to stop, to pause, to say to my partner, I
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 2: just started getting upset with you and I made it
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: your fault. I see it. I'm sorry about that. And
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: I'm not shaming myself. I'm not putting myself down. I'm
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: not accepting globally that like our conflict is my fault.
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: I'm recognizing, oh, I wound up in my disempowered position.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 2: And the disempowered position is the one where if you
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: get upset or raise your voice a little bit, I'm
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: meeting that energy exactly in the same way. That's me disempowered. Right.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: is how I act in the world based on how
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: somebody acts towards me. And my answer, my value set
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: is no. No, I'm wholly accountable for how I interact
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 2: with you. Do I choose to judge you for being upset?
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: Or do I choose to understand that you are a
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: stressed out person who's been through what you've been through,
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: who's exhausted, who just worked an overnight shift, dealing with like,
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: she's a newborn intensive care specialist.
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: Oh my God.
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: So she'll be up all night dealing with some sort
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: of situation with a 25-week preemie that I can't even
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: begin to fathom. And if I'm not mindful, if I'm
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: not in my values, I'm just going to take that
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: as like, can't you speak to me less angrily because
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: it disturbs me when you sound angry? And that's a
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: judgment that I'm passing on my wife. So I get
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: to watch myself act in a way that I'm okay with.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: in alignment with my values or in a way that
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: I'm not. I am then able, if I'm not in
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: alignment with my values, I'm able to say to my partner,
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: I don't like the way I reacted to you. I
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: made that your fault. That was not your fault. That's
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: on me. I'm sorry about that. And here's the thing
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: that happens when we can do that. Once I started
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: doing that, it was kind of amazing. I Uh, we
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: were probably like a year or so into our marriage.
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: So this took a while. Like I wasn't even there
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: yet when we got married, um, almost nine years now.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: Who are you being weird right now?
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: It like stopped her and she didn't know what to
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 2: do with it. But what winds up happening is your
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 2: partner feels safer. And when your partner feels safer, because
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: you just saw something they've been seeing you do the
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: entire time. And now we're not missing each other anymore.
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 2: Now we're squaring those realities. We're linking up. I'm acknowledging
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: to you, I do get defensive if you get upset.
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 2: I do blame you as if it's your fault for
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 2: feeling feelings that I got angry at you. Oh, okay.
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: I see that. So she feels safer. And guess what
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: that means? She's less reactive with me. And guess what
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: that means? I'm less reactive with her. And what all
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: that gives us is the good stuff. We tend to
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 2: like our spouse more. beneath all this stuff, right? We
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 2: got together for a reason. We're friends. We laugh more now.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: We're connected more. The hard moments aren't so scary because
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: I don't feel so disempowered anymore. And it's easy. I'm
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: not betraying myself. I'm just sussing out my values and
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 2: I'm staying in accordance with my values. Or if I leave,
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: I'm just coming back. That's all. I learned to come
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 2: back and come back. So that's what we can do.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: Matthew, that's so beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: all of this. And it's really so inspiring. And it
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: takes effort, I think, to get to the place where
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: you are able to be so self-aware and And also
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: so deeply connected to value so that you're able to
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: just make a choice in every moment. I get to
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: decide who I want to be and how I want
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: to show up no matter what is happening around me
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: and to have that level of control and self-mastery. And
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 1: I just want to say that out loud for all
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: of our friends here listening, this is not a switch
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: that you flip on. You're not going to listen to
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: this podcast and be like, oh, okay, got it. This
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: is years of Maybe not years. Honestly, in coaching, I
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: think we can get there a lot more quickly because
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 1: we can help people have the experience and then just
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 1: be like, here's what to practice, right? And so I
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: think that there's that. But this has just been so beautiful. Matthew,
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: thank you so much for spending this time with us today.
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 1: You are just so gifted in all of this. And Well,
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: you promised me right now that we'll do this again sometime,
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: have you back on. We'll talk about another facet of relationships.
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: But I know I can't keep you forever, but this
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 1: was so good.
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Lisa. It's just been so fun. And I
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: could talk about this stuff all day. I do talk
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: about this stuff all day, every day. So I'd love
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 2: to come back. Thank you.
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 1: We'll do it soon. Okay, you guys. So my colleague,
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: Matthew Kaplan, he's a marriage and family therapist, board-certified coach.
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: And if you... would like to do this work with Matthew,
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: that's what he does, growingself.com forward slash Matthew, and schedule
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: just a free consultation with him. Just say hi, meet him,
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: you know, a little bit about you, what's going on
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: in your life, what you might like to work on,
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: and see if it feels like a good fit. And
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: if it is, you can move forward. And if not, Matthew,
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: I'm sure you'd be very generous with your recommendations. the
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: very best gifts are the ones that are so luxurious
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: that we probably wouldn't buy ourselves. I personally was gifted
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: exactly this in the form of a cozy earth bubble
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: cuddle blanket. It is incredible. It is plush and soft
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: and weighted and warm and absolutely exquisite. So if your
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: goal is to make people feel loved and happy this
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: holiday season, and also let's just say it, win the
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: gift giving because your will be the best, you have
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 1: to check out Cozy Earth and do it soon. Cozy
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: Earth's biggest sale of the year ends December 3rd, but
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 1: right now you can head to CozyEarth.com. and use the
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 1: code LHS for 35% off home and sleepwear. That's CozyEarth.com,
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: code LHS. And when they ask you at checkout where
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 1: you heard about them, let them know love, happiness, and
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: success sent you slash motivated you because this is really
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: what it's all about. Let's take a different spin on love, happiness,
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: and success and about how these show up through our clothes.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: I experience all of the above when I wear my
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 1: quince dresses. I am obsessed with their Mongolian cashmere. These
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: are the kinds of clothes that support my success as well.
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 1: I show up for work looking like I have my
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: act together and I'll walk right out the door for
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: an evening out Here's how it relates to love. I
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: want the people I care about to experience the same joy,
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: and that is why all my favorite people are getting
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: quints from me this year. 14-karat gold earrings and bracelets,
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: cozy cashmere gloves and scarves. Everything at quints is 50
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 1: to 80 percent less than similar brands, so you can
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: give luxury quality without the luxury price tag. Give the
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: gift of quality this holiday season. Download the quints app
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: for app-exclusive offers or go to quints.com. Get free shipping
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: on your order and 365 day returns now available in
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 1: Canada and the UK too. And when Quinn's asks where
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: you heard about them, let them know it was on love, happiness,
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: and success. It's the very best way to support the show.
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 1: It's about what else to do. So guys, thanks again
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: so much for tuning in to this episode of Love, Happiness,
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: and Success. And we are going to do this again
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 1: very soon. And thanks for listening. Oh, and lastly, if
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: you had anybody else in your life, in your mind today,
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 1: as Matthew and I were talking and you had those
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: moments where you're like, oh, I wish so-and-so was hearing this.
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: This is exactly what share this episode with them, encourage
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 1: them to listen, follow up, have a little book club
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 1: based on the podcast. We value that. And that's also
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 1: part of this mission is that we were trying to
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: put these ideas into the world so that other people
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 1: can use them in their lives. And so thank you
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: for being part of the light.