Latest / 22 Panels - A Comic Book Podcast / Panels & Psychocomicology: Joy, Resistance, Hope, and Survival Book Club & Support Group 12 - Thinking About Thinking

Transcript

Panels & Psychocomicology: Joy, Resistance, Hope, and Survival Book Club & Support Group 12 - Thinking About Thinking · 22 Panels - A Comic Book Podcast

0:02
Tad Eggleston: Good evening, everybody. Welcome back to the Joy, Resistance, Hope, and Survival Book Club and Support Group.
0:09
Tad Eggleston: Though… though it feels much more like the book club and therapy session, since a support group generally involves a licensed professional and more than one other person, and once again, this month we have a licensed professional and one other person, so… so…
0:27
Tad Eggleston: Lee Woods from Psychocomicology joins us again. This month we read Grant Snyder's Thinking About Thinking.
0:35
Tad Eggleston: Which is a book that I love. I had Grant Snyder on around when it came out. He's a really good guy. I'm certain I'll have him back at some point.
0:44
Tad Eggleston: I love his newsletter, which… which often has…
0:50
Tad Eggleston: The cartoon that he just did, or whatever, sometimes it has exercises, sometimes it has… Ruminations, as you…
0:58
Tad Eggleston: just read. Often that's essentially what, what he publishes, is, is like…
1:04
Tad Eggleston: his, collection of exercises and ruminations. So, I'm gonna start off with, with, we gotta do our check-in. I'm, I'm,
1:13
Tad Eggleston: It's been a weird week.
1:15
Tad Eggleston: We hit on this a little bit in the,
1:19
Tad Eggleston: When we recorded our weekly episode earlier today, but, like…
1:25
Tad Eggleston: Like, you look at the news at all, and you're like, why are… we have a president…
1:32
Tad Eggleston: Literally threatening all-out war, possibly nuclear war. Why the hell aren't we freaking the fuck out way more than we are?
1:41
Tad Eggleston: And then you, like, spend time in the world, and it's like…
1:46
Tad Eggleston: Gas prices are higher, but otherwise, life feels very much the same. Was I hallucinating this morning when I read?
1:55
Tad Eggleston: the… the president's… I guess… I guess truths?
2:02
Lee Woods: Yeah.
2:05
Tad Eggleston: So there's, like, a disconnect this week.
2:09
Tad Eggleston: You know… So yeah, that's where I'm at. It was a weird week.
2:16
Tad Eggleston: I felt… I felt…
2:18
Tad Eggleston: Less tethered to reality than… than sometimes, just because it was hard to figure out what…
2:27
Tad Eggleston: what was real and in front of me and what I knew to be real in the world were just so different.
2:34
Tad Eggleston: Like, when you read about shit like this in history books and whatever, it's like, shouldn't we be, like, doing food drives and or going into bunkers and…
2:48
Tad Eggleston: Why are we acting like nothing is happening?
2:52
Lee Woods: Can seem very, discombobulating at times, for sure.
2:57
Lee Woods: Especially when something seems like to be of, like, very huge import.
3:01
Lee Woods: For sure.
3:04
Tad Eggleston: your civilization will be gone from the most powerful person in the world, shouldn't… It feels heavier than…
3:12
Tad Eggleston: a Tuesday.
3:16
Lee Woods: Yeah.
3:19
Lee Woods: I'm,
3:21
Lee Woods: Yeah, and I'm thinking back… well, I don't want to jump too far ahead. When it comes to that aspect, right.
3:30
Lee Woods: It's almost like a,
3:33
Lee Woods: I think you said it well. It's a disconnect, right? It doesn't sort of seem real, where it's just like, man, like, that happened, right? Like…
3:43
Lee Woods: It's almost like, as if.
3:45
Tad Eggleston: Well, and it's happening, because, like, we had our peace talks.
3:49
Tad Eggleston: That didn't go anywhere, very predictably, because it was very clear when we had our, and I'm doing the big, huge air quotes again, ceasefire, that not all parties were completely on board, and certainly didn't have the same basis for where we were starting.
4:06
Tad Eggleston: So it's like, like… Where exactly are we in…
4:14
Tad Eggleston: the re- like, I feel like…
4:17
Tad Eggleston: I feel like maybe, maybe things are going the right way, and maybe I'm gonna wake up in the morning and discover that, like…
4:24
Tad Eggleston: We're reinstituting the draft this week.
4:28
Tad Eggleston: You know what I mean?
4:32
Tad Eggleston: So, yeah.
4:33
Lee Woods: Yeah, it's… it's almost like, I'm imagining, especially in my work with, like, certain
4:41
Lee Woods: Like, groups or families, where it's just like…
4:45
Lee Woods: Yeah, we had a fight last week, right? Or even, like, we had a fight yesterday, right? Why does it seem like everything's fine now?
4:51
Lee Woods: Is it fine? I don't think it's fine. We never, like… Right.
4:54
Tad Eggleston: Have we actually resolved something, or… or have we managed to engage in some…
5:01
Tad Eggleston: Mass psychosis, or is it really that, that…
5:06
Tad Eggleston: That whatever it is wasn't actually that big, so it didn't require resolution, it just required everybody agreeing, hey, no big deal. And moving on…
5:18
Tad Eggleston: That feels more like something you can do with families than countries.
5:23
Lee Woods: Well, it's almost like the, I don't know why it may… well, it comes from the cartoon, that we're… I'm sure we're gonna talk about soon, is that…
5:30
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, we will in a second, yeah.
5:32
Lee Woods: The head in the sand, like the ostrich. Just put your head in the sand.
5:36
Lee Woods: doesn't exist.
5:38
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
5:40
Tad Eggleston: So…
5:40
Lee Woods: It reminds me, too, of,
5:44
Lee Woods: Sometimes when things are seemingly… I'm gonna choose my words carefully here, are seemingly so far away, like, out of contact with our, sort of, everyday lives.
5:55
Lee Woods: It's very easy to think, Or feel or perceive that it's not really happening.
6:02
Lee Woods: Right. Until it happens.
6:04
Tad Eggleston: Right.
6:04
Lee Woods: If that makes sense.
6:05
Tad Eggleston: Or there's nothing to do… nothing for me to do about it, so I'm not gonna…
6:09
Tad Eggleston: Because, like… and tell me if this is me, you know, because I never know if this is my autistic brain, or if this is my bipolar-ness, or if this is…
6:21
Tad Eggleston: a thing that, like, I see that other people don't.
6:28
Tad Eggleston: you know, because one of the most common things you'll hear is, I can't think about it, because what can I do about it? And it's like, no, you can't prevent the war.
6:39
Tad Eggleston: But you can… Comfort your neighbors.
6:42
Tad Eggleston: You can… you can… I mean…
6:49
Tad Eggleston: Look at what the people of Minneapolis have done for each other.
6:54
Tad Eggleston: You know, there's so many things that we can do.
6:58
Tad Eggleston: If… if we're not… Going, oh, that doesn't affect me, so I'm gonna live my life…
7:07
Tad Eggleston: Like, nothing is happening.
7:12
Tad Eggleston: And I don't always know which ones matter and which ones don't, and I don't think anybody does, but like…
7:19
Tad Eggleston: I at least feel like if you know that something's happening, rather than just writing it off as, I can't do anything.
7:27
Tad Eggleston: doing something, even if it's just to make your corner of the world… I mean, this is… we'll go to… we'll go to the… the… the paint, you know, the… the…
7:35
Tad Eggleston: I love the one where he's like, I do everything I can to keep my world beautiful, and he's, like, cleaning up the dust and whatnot, and he's in, like, this open-air room in the desert with sand continuing to come in. And yes, that can be how it feels, but, like, isn't it still worthwhile to…
7:55
Tad Eggleston: to be there?
7:59
Tad Eggleston: and engaged with your community on a level?
8:04
Lee Woods: Yeah, it certainly can be, right? Obviously, I think at some… at some point, it depends on the person and individual, and this is…
8:11
Lee Woods: Not to romanticize psychology too much, but…
8:14
Lee Woods: One of my sort of special interests is that it's not just individual psychology, but social psychology as well.
8:20
Tad Eggleston: Yeah?
8:21
Lee Woods: Because who'd have thunk it? Groups are made up of people. And…
8:25
Tad Eggleston: WHAT!
8:26
Lee Woods: Yeah, who'd have thunk it? And so, we come in with our own sort of beliefs or perspectives, but then also, when we're a part of a group, how that can change or be skewed. So…
8:39
Lee Woods: Yeah, it… Depends on, like.
8:42
Lee Woods: the community, it depends on the social support. But also, if that's the sort of,
8:49
Lee Woods: Subcultural, micro-cultural component that.
8:53
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, no, I was… I was just reading,
8:58
Tad Eggleston: short piece on Milton Friedman and his part in neoliberalism, and essentially, like.
9:05
Tad Eggleston: You know, his economic contribution is essentially that there is no society. There are people who look out for their own interests.
9:15
Tad Eggleston: You know, so his… he actually, you know, his first major, major book, and like, I'm completely paraphrasing and don't know my Friedman really well, except that I do know that there was a shift in his thinking, because at one point.
9:30
Tad Eggleston: You know, his, his first… His first seminal, like, essay that put him on… on the… the… the map.
9:40
Tad Eggleston: Seemed to acknowledge that government Could do things for social… needs, but…
9:46
Tad Eggleston: But that it wasn't the responsibility of corporations to do things for social needs. Their… their only… their only thing was to make a profit. And if there was… if there was something that wasn't profit-driven that… that was required, then it was the government's job to make laws, because the corporations weren't supposed to break the law to make a profit, etc, blah blah blah.
10:06
Tad Eggleston: But apparently he got really upset by the… the…
10:13
Tad Eggleston: JFK, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country, because his argument was that a free man would neither ask what his country could do for him, or what he could do for his country.
10:29
Tad Eggleston: Oh, God.
10:31
Tad Eggleston: And it's like, but… but we all share space. I mean, that's been all… that's always been my problem with that version of freedom, is like…
10:42
Tad Eggleston: Okay, but, like, that assumes that your actions don't have consequences for other people.
10:52
Tad Eggleston: And if you pollute the air.
10:54
Tad Eggleston: You're not the only one affected.
10:57
Tad Eggleston: If you pollute the water supply, you're not the only one affected.
11:04
Tad Eggleston: You know, if you hoard resources, you're not the only one affected.
11:10
Tad Eggleston: You know, I mean… that kind of freedom, I think, leads to…
11:23
Tad Eggleston: I mean, under that kind of freedom, can you have, say, laws against murder?
11:30
Tad Eggleston: And for that matter, we sometimes, like, are leaning that way when you talk about castle laws, or stand-your-own-ground laws, where people are allowed to take another's life in defense of their property.
11:43
Tad Eggleston: Or ego.
11:45
Tad Eggleston: Or whatever.
11:52
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, but that's a way darker level to start this, because thinking about thinking, well, while you can definitely take it, you know, and I think… I think one of the reasons it popped into my head was because
12:02
Tad Eggleston: I literally had just finished reading Thinking About Thinking, and I had a newsletter, and that had the freedmen, and I thought about it on a different level than I might have thought about it otherwise, so that's why it's all in my head at once right now.
12:18
Lee Woods: Yeah, because at least in my head, the way it sort of shook out is…
12:23
Lee Woods: not just actions having consequences, right? But as a CBT practitioner, or cognitive behavior therapist, is that what you think affects how you behave, right? And it's very easy to look at
12:36
Lee Woods: the behaviors and the consequences of said behaviors, but even in individual and group therapy, what I do is I look at the thought process, right? It's looking at that
12:46
Lee Woods: space in your head, and what's processed there, that leads to the behaviors, right? And…
12:53
Tad Eggleston: Right.
12:54
Lee Woods: and that perspective that you were talking about, Tad, especially when it comes to community, is…
12:59
Lee Woods: Yeah, how do you think about community, and what do you think about community? Do you think in such a.
13:05
Tad Eggleston: There's a way where you have a responsibility to any of the people around you.
13:12
Tad Eggleston: or all of the people around… I mean, I think that's one of the big differences, is, like, I think… I think you don't find many people who don't think that they have some responsibilities to people other than themselves.
13:24
Tad Eggleston: But the how many changes.
13:28
Lee Woods: Hill.
13:28
Tad Eggleston: I feel like I have responsibility to everyone.
13:33
Tad Eggleston: whether I know them or not.
13:34
Tad Eggleston: Clearly, there are a lot of people who don't think that they have any responsibility to people who aren't U.S. citizens. There are other people who don't feel like they have responsibilities outside their own families.
13:49
Tad Eggleston: And it does, it changes… you know, like, there's so many just little… Assumptions.
13:58
Tad Eggleston: That you can work from that will change the entire way that you think.
14:03
Lee Woods: Yeah.
14:05
Lee Woods: And…
14:06
Lee Woods: it's, I know you referenced some of the panels in the book, and I'm currently trying to find it in… because I have it on Hoopla on my phone.
14:14
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
14:15
Lee Woods: is that it's… There's several, several of these little stories and illustrations where
14:24
Lee Woods: it does just that. It talks about, like, that thought process, or some of the struggles or challenges, but how often
14:31
Lee Woods: other people get involved, right? And they…
14:35
Lee Woods: Pardon me, they don't necessarily have, like, a speaking role or line of dialogue, but you see… that…
14:42
Lee Woods: that anxiety, as it were, just…
14:46
Lee Woods: looking at some of the… the panels here, the anxiety, how, yeah, it's… it can be a lonely battle, or it can be a very isolating battle, but at the same time, it's…
14:56
Lee Woods: it's not just how it affects you, right? It's how you affect your behaviors around others as well.
15:03
Lee Woods: Right. Here's one, yeah.
15:06
Lee Woods: But yeah, it's just like, New Year's resolutions. You got the first 5 panels, It's… Go back to.
15:13
Tad Eggleston: old stuff.
15:14
Lee Woods: Yeah.
15:15
Lee Woods: And it's like.
15:17
Lee Woods: Then you have a panel with someone else, lonely again, and then the next panel, there's people dancing, and then it's just…
15:24
Lee Woods: It's how that can translate to how you interact with other people.
15:30
Tad Eggleston: Right. Like, we've started, like, even more in media res than I so often do. You can probably see that I'm in a highly autistic, anxious state.
15:45
Tad Eggleston: Which is why I'm gonna kick it to you, particularly because this was your first read of this book. Why don't you introduce…
15:53
Tad Eggleston: The book to the audience and give…
15:56
Tad Eggleston: give your basic thoughts, you know, just from, like, what you knew about it when I sent it to you was… nothing. You knew the title and the name I sent you. I don't know if you wound up looking into anything more, or if all you know is what you read. So… so, like, yeah.
16:16
Lee Woods: Yeah, all I know is what I read, so thank you for that, and I think there's a lot of value for me. I don't go in with a preconceived notion. So the book that we read was Thinking About Thinking by Grant Snyder, a very sort of simplistic
16:31
Lee Woods: Sort of a summary of it, is that it's a…
16:36
Lee Woods: many, many collections and illustrations of, like, almost, like, one or two-page stories.
16:43
Lee Woods: about certain topics, whether it be just, New Year's resolutions,
16:50
Lee Woods: Looking at anxieties, overthinking, or the…
16:55
Lee Woods: I mean, overthinking is a big one.
16:58
Lee Woods: And what it does… what I read, and how I interpreted it, was… It's a very…
17:07
Lee Woods: I'm gonna take a phrase from the summary, it says, a playful examination.
17:11
Lee Woods: Because it was…
17:13
Tad Eggleston: Perfectly, yeah.
17:14
Lee Woods: very playful, right, in that it was…
17:19
Lee Woods: Drawn like a cartoon, but not cartoonish.
17:23
Lee Woods: If that makes sense. Yeah. So for me, I found myself, which,
17:29
Lee Woods: as I normally do with the books that we talk about here, I'm like, okay, well, what does this have to do with JRHS, the acronym for the group?
17:36
Tad Eggleston: Right.
17:37
Lee Woods: again, and I find myself kind of looking back on my reactions to it, is that
17:44
Lee Woods: damn near at the end of every short illustration, I'm smiling.
17:49
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
17:50
Lee Woods: It's like, so for me, it definitely hit upon the joy aspect of it, where…
17:54
Tad Eggleston: He finds joy in anxiety, he finds joy in loneliness and deprec… you know, like, I really like that about Grant.
18:03
Lee Woods: Yeah, and oftentimes, in some of them, I definitely picked up on the hope as well.
18:08
Lee Woods: So, it was very, interesting for me, just to kind of see this as, like, how…
18:15
Lee Woods: Yeah, in some ways, how some of the most menial tasks, you can get anxious about it, or in your moods. He talked about, sort of, emotions and feelings, and how that sometimes there's so many, and it's hard to sometimes grasp it and work through it.
18:31
Lee Woods: And he definitely did an excellent job, at least in my, perception here.
18:36
Lee Woods: illustrating that.
18:38
Lee Woods: So, for me, it was definitely a joy to read, and a definitely a,
18:44
Lee Woods: Great illustration. I'm already thinking about some,
18:48
Lee Woods: some, presents, gifts to give to my, family back home. Oh!
18:54
Tad Eggleston: I don't know if you've hit his…
18:57
Tad Eggleston: I mean, I don't know if you went to his… he… he… there are a number of… of pages… Okay. …that…
19:05
Tad Eggleston: He has available… As… as, like, wall prints.
19:11
Lee Woods: Oh, cool.
19:13
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
19:16
Tad Eggleston: At his shop.
19:20
Tad Eggleston: Like, here We'll share a screen now that I'm at his shop.
19:27
Tad Eggleston: Cause, yeah, no, I keep meaning to order myself.
19:30
Tad Eggleston: some, too.
19:32
Tad Eggleston: Cause…
19:38
Tad Eggleston: But yeah, you've got plague.
19:40
Tad Eggleston: You know, from… so, sometimes they're from the books, sometimes they're… they're from… from… other stuff.
19:47
Tad Eggleston: That's just one of them.
19:49
Tad Eggleston: Back to shop, we got the jazz, how to finish… Books…
19:58
Tad Eggleston: I had another book that I like. I will judge you by your bookshelf.
20:01
Lee Woods: Yeah.
20:05
Lee Woods: But yeah, and again, it's… they seem…
20:10
Lee Woods: simple. Like, this idea, like, you have up right now, perfect. What does it mean to be perfect? Right. And…
20:18
Lee Woods: the anxiety that can come from needing to be perfect is very… Insightful, yet… digestible.
20:28
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
20:29
Tad Eggleston: I'm trying to… to figure out if any of the ones are from… From this actual book.
20:36
Tad Eggleston: Because he's done… like, all of his books feel like this, but, like, there's… there's one that's poetry, there's one that's…
20:45
Tad Eggleston: I will judge… oh, here's one from… remember this one? Emotional Tetris?
20:49
Lee Woods: Yup. That was, yup.
20:52
Lee Woods: That was a very powerful one.
20:58
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, no, I mean, and I've been blessed to talk to Grant, so I know that sometimes he's the overthinker self a bit.
21:07
Tad Eggleston: There's another print available.
21:09
Tad Eggleston: I know that, that… That there's truth to what it feels like, is that, like.
21:16
Tad Eggleston: He'll… he'll wake up, or, or sometimes throughout the day.
21:21
Tad Eggleston: Because he's actually an orthodontist by trade.
21:25
Lee Woods: I did see that.
21:26
Tad Eggleston: with, I think, 4 kids?
21:28
Lee Woods: No power to him, man.
21:30
Tad Eggleston: Right. So he'll get, like, an idea, or, or, or…
21:36
Tad Eggleston: I think the Brainstorm one is a great one, as an ex… you know, something will kind of get stuck in his head, and he'll be working on it, and, like, he'll kind of work it out by drawing it.
21:49
Tad Eggleston: So if it feels like it's thinking on the page sometimes, it's because sometimes it is. Or at least the first draft was.
21:57
Tad Eggleston: Y-you know, it's, it's… And then, as he has the full idea, it becomes… becomes the comic.
22:07
Tad Eggleston: which I appreciate, because, like, as somebody who thinks out loud a lot, as somebody who likes to noodle with ideas, and…
22:17
Tad Eggleston: propose hypotheticals to myself, or… Try to look at things from different angles.
22:23
Tad Eggleston: I feel like that's… that's what this enta… I mean…
22:27
Tad Eggleston: the title is what… I had no idea who Grant Snyder was until I saw the title of this book, Thinking About Thinking. I'm like.
22:37
Tad Eggleston: I can't think of… you know, without knowing anything about it, I was certain that it was gonna be…
22:42
Tad Eggleston: A book for me.
22:48
Lee Woods: Which is interesting, because when I… sorry to interrupt, but one of the first things I noticed when the book was, like, thinking about thinking, was just, like.
22:55
Lee Woods: In psychology, we call it metacognition.
22:58
Lee Woods: And it literally translates to thinking about your thinking.
23:03
Lee Woods: So when I'm doing therapy with…
23:05
Lee Woods: people, it's like, yeah, we're literally gonna think about how you think, and we're gonna look at that. So, yeah, it was right up my alley zoo.
23:14
Tad Eggleston: And, well, and Sam sent me her dissertation while I was reading it, too, so, like, I skimmed her dissertation in between chapters, and, like, so…
23:25
Tad Eggleston: so seeing this… this comic… comic creating is self-therapy in some ways, as… as I was reading a paper, you know, those… those loyal listeners to… to…
23:40
Tad Eggleston: to, 22 panels will remember Samantha, chavez, Ramos,
23:50
Tad Eggleston: Who used to be more regular, but then she got, like, really busy, because she, she, she will…
23:58
Tad Eggleston: unless something goes horribly wrong, be receiving her doctorate on Free Comic Book Day.
24:08
Tad Eggleston: And she sent me a preview of her dissertation while I was reading this, and it's about using comics as… as a self…
24:17
Tad Eggleston: care tool.
24:20
Tad Eggleston: And it made me really wish that she was gonna have time to be with us tonight, because I feel like…
24:25
Tad Eggleston: This is… this is even, like, flipping that script. It's like making comics as a self-care tool. Then sharing them for other people to use as a self-care tool.
24:35
Tad Eggleston: I mean, I can't believe that I had forgotten to, to, like…
24:40
Tad Eggleston: Can't remember if I told Edgar and Sam about these books when I read them before Grant was on, way back when. It was before you guys owned a shop, so it would have been, like, just something where I read them and went, oh, you guys should think about this. Which is why I can't remember whether I did it or not.
24:56
Tad Eggleston: But, like, these are totally books that I feel like should be on your clinician's corner, you know?
25:03
Tad Eggleston: Cause I feel like, you know… I know that I… I…
25:10
Tad Eggleston: should get myself hard copies, because there are probably days where I can't figure out what I'm feeling, where I could flip through and find the page that explained it. This is what I'm going through right now, sweetie.
25:23
Lee Woods: Heh, yep.
25:24
Lee Woods: Yeah, it's almost like, hey, this is it.
25:28
Tad Eggleston: Well, I mean, it's kind of like, I mean, I'm so happy. My wife made them for me.
25:32
Tad Eggleston: This week, and my therapist was even more happy. Because sometimes in the morning, when I'm having trouble getting out of bed and whatever, I'm also having trouble communicating with her, so I now have my cheat sheets. I can point out where I'm feeling.
25:47
Lee Woods: Oh, boy.
25:49
Tad Eggleston: Or… or what I'm feeling.
25:51
Lee Woods: Yep.
25:52
Tad Eggleston: Or… or what I think I need.
25:56
Lee Woods: Super cool.
26:00
Tad Eggleston: And I don't have to manage to come up with the words, and she doesn't have to manage to come up with a way to…
26:06
Tad Eggleston: to interrogate me, she can just, like, okay, sweetie, you seem to be having trouble, can you… can you… point?
26:16
Tad Eggleston: Cause I know, at least for…
26:22
Tad Eggleston: For a lot of neurodivergent people, speech can become an issue.
26:30
Lee Woods: Oh, yeah.
26:31
Tad Eggleston: And I think for mental health, having the right words is always an issue.
26:37
Tad Eggleston: often because they barely exist. You know, mental health is comparatively such a new field.
26:45
Tad Eggleston: linguistically.
26:48
Tad Eggleston: That… that having the words and… and…
26:54
Tad Eggleston: I mean, I don't think we think about language enough.
26:58
Tad Eggleston: Language is a big deal.
27:01
Tad Eggleston: I mean, we were talking about metacognition. Language is the cornerstone of metacognition. If you don't have the word to describe it, and that word isn't one that other people understand what it means.
27:17
Tad Eggleston: You know, even if it's the perfect word to you, if it doesn't actually…
27:21
Tad Eggleston: Translate to somebody else, then it's not valuable.
27:26
Tad Eggleston: You know? I mean, it's the problem… it's sometimes the problem with looking for the perfect word, is you come up with the perfect word, and it's so obscure that whoever you're saying it to is like, Versamilla what?
27:39
Lee Woods: Yup.
27:42
Lee Woods: One of the things that… when I do when I teach and work with patients is that… that's one of the first things I'll talk about when I… in reference to feelings, is that in the English language specifically, that we have over 3,000 words to describe how you feel.
27:59
Lee Woods: So…
28:01
Lee Woods: Chances are, one, you probably don't know all of them, which is okay, but then two is that oftentimes, it's like.
28:08
Lee Woods: Yeah, I have a feeling, like, it's like anger, but not really. It's something… so, even then, it's like, we got the word, but it doesn't quite match…
28:19
Lee Woods: Again, what we're actually feeling.
28:21
Tad Eggleston: Which, to me, makes me think that we're, like, through step one. Well, not through, because you're always going to keep going, but we've managed to create the words.
28:30
Tad Eggleston: But… but… but I bet you…
28:33
Tad Eggleston: And I'm just gonna use, like, random math. Like, if there are 3,000 words for feelings.
28:39
Tad Eggleston: Let's say that there are a million words, period. I know that there are actually more than that. Let's say that the average person knows
28:49
Tad Eggleston: And can use, and this is actually a high number, but let's say that the average person can know and use
28:58
Tad Eggleston: 1%.
29:00
Tad Eggleston: of… of all words. So, 1% of a, of, of a million is… is 10,000. That's actually…
29:09
Tad Eggleston: a pretty good working vocabulary. Most people don't…
29:12
Tad Eggleston: I mean, maybe things have changed, but…
29:15
Tad Eggleston: at least the way I understand it, 10,000 words as a working vocabulary is actually pretty good. So, if there are only 3,000
29:27
Tad Eggleston: words for feelings, that means that the working vocabulary of most people is 30. But I think, if we're being really honest, when it comes to
29:40
Tad Eggleston: Feeling words, I bet you the working vocabulary of most people is closer to 10.
29:48
Tad Eggleston: So there might be 3,000 words, but, like, the number of people who know even 300…
29:56
Tad Eggleston: Just because we don't focus enough on talking about our feelings. Like, until you start using words on a regular basis.
30:05
Tad Eggleston: I mean, this to me is one of the reasons why literature is so important.
30:11
Lee Woods: Yep.
30:13
Tad Eggleston: you know, there are people, oh, I only read nonfiction. It's like, you know what? Like, the idea that there isn't stuff to learn from fiction is, like…
30:21
Tad Eggleston: Fiction is how you get to learn about people.
30:27
Tad Eggleston: I mean, to learn about feelings, to learn about communication, to learn about that sort of thing, even if it's…
30:35
Tad Eggleston: Non-fiction, it's gonna have to be fictionalized nonfiction.
30:41
Tad Eggleston: Unless whoever's writing can get in… literally has been able to interview every person involved, okay, what were you thinking at this time?
30:52
Tad Eggleston: Y-you know, the difference between a nonfiction and a fiction is, is, like… Specific communication and emotions.
31:05
Tad Eggleston: So, there's a lot of truth to…
31:09
Tad Eggleston: Fiction, because it involves specific communication and emotions.
31:13
Tad Eggleston: it's a different form of truth, you know. I'm gonna go to the historian if I want to know when a battle happened.
31:24
Lee Woods: Right.
31:26
Tad Eggleston: But… But the fiction of the era is gonna tell me a lot about…
31:33
Tad Eggleston: How the people who lived during…
31:37
Tad Eggleston: The time of that battle felt about it that the historian will have much less idea about.
31:43
Tad Eggleston: Does that make sense?
31:45
Lee Woods: That makes sense to me.
31:47
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
31:49
Tad Eggleston: And I think that's… that's one of the things that I love about Grant's work, is, like.
31:55
Tad Eggleston: For every cartoon he has that starts jumbled and comes out
32:01
Tad Eggleston: like, neat. There's another one that starts neat, but then he starts asking the questions, and it ends completely chaotic, but often more beautiful for its chaos.
32:15
Lee Woods: Yep.
32:17
Tad Eggleston: You know, so it's not like the… he talks himself into a bad place. It's that he takes this order and feels uncomfortable with it, and turns it into chaos, but can also see, oh, this chaos is actually better than that. Like, I feel like there was one that involved
32:35
Tad Eggleston: there was, like, 3 in a row, like, I am a circle, but then the circle didn't become an I am a triangle, and then, like, turning it on, and then I am a square, and, like, you know, that finished with being a diamond. Yep, yep.
32:51
Tad Eggleston: But it was all, like, looking at the pros and cons of…
32:58
Tad Eggleston: you know, it seems great to be a perfect circle, but… Oh, but then you see…
33:08
Tad Eggleston: And I think so much of our thoughts are like that. Like, simplicity is… Hard. Ease.
33:16
Tad Eggleston: Well, simplicity is generally not good.
33:20
Tad Eggleston: You know, simplicity is generally, like, you're missing massive amounts of things, and, like, relying on the world not to fuck you up.
33:30
Tad Eggleston: Does that make sense?
33:33
Tad Eggleston: Like, because if you stick to your simplistic worldview of anything, and anything pierces that… What do you do?
33:43
Tad Eggleston: You either push back and go, nope, this is the way it is.
33:47
Tad Eggleston: Or you're like, oh my god, I spent my whole life thinking that this is the way it is, and it's not, and I don't know what to do now.
33:56
Tad Eggleston: Even if it's like, okay, yeah, no, you're, you're, you're a 87-degree triangle rather than a 90 degree triangle.
34:04
Tad Eggleston: It's not as much of a damage to your worldview as…
34:11
Tad Eggleston: But at the same time, like… Complete chaos.
34:17
Tad Eggleston: Not good, scary, you know, but… but if there's a chaos that you can…
34:23
Tad Eggleston: see the order and beauty to, if there's a chaos that… You accept… but also… Push back against
34:37
Tad Eggleston: for yourself, for… I'm trying to…
34:42
Tad Eggleston: I'm thinking in meta terms and trying to figure out how to… how to use words for… and this is the other thing that I appreciated so much reading this, is like, oh, like…
34:53
Tad Eggleston: and it's, like, the definition of why I love comics, and I think why a lot of us love comics. It's like, so many of these ideas make sense so much more sense when you've got the words and the pictures.
35:06
Tad Eggleston: Even though the pictures can be very abstract.
35:10
Lee Woods: Very much.
35:12
Tad Eggleston: You know… I feel like I'm dominating.
35:16
Tad Eggleston: More thought.
35:16
Lee Woods: Honestly.
35:17
Tad Eggleston: Give me thoughts.
35:18
Lee Woods: Because, like, that's why I went with the idea of, like, simple is hard.
35:22
Lee Woods: Yeah. It seems like an oxymoron, it seems like a paradox, but…
35:25
Lee Woods: again, and I don't… I'm sure I don't have to really say this, but…
35:30
Lee Woods: with… as a kid, we think about things fairly simply, right? That is red, that's a cat, dog, right? Alphabetically, etc.
35:40
Lee Woods: But the more we learn, The more we experience, the more nuanced.
35:45
Lee Woods: our thinking processes are, right? So…
35:49
Lee Woods: then it shifts from… it's not just red, it's burgundy, or it's garnet, or it's ruby, right? It becomes much more nuanced.
35:58
Lee Woods: And then… The more nuanced… we become… the more…
36:05
Lee Woods: Advance our thinking processes, which we move away from this idea of it being simple.
36:12
Lee Woods: And…
36:14
Lee Woods: that's where, going back to the idea of communication, right? Fiction, nonfiction, even as we talk to each other.
36:23
Lee Woods: Is, how does that communication Do we convey what it is that we mean?
36:30
Lee Woods: Or, how do we… well, excuse me, how do we experience
36:35
Lee Woods: Those… that thing, wherever that thing may be that we're sharing in that moment.
36:40
Lee Woods: So at least from what I'm saying, this thinking about thinking, Is that, even though he…
36:47
Lee Woods: I'll say, in large part, it's about anxiety,
36:52
Lee Woods: But there… it was so many different avenues of how to experience anxiety.
36:59
Lee Woods: Where it was general enough to really capture it, to get the really essence of what that…
37:03
Lee Woods: niche of anxiety was, but also to say, Yeah, it's…
37:09
Lee Woods: this is what it can feel like. Not necessarily it has to be that way, but what it can feel like, or look like. Which, again, I very… I was very impressed by the book, and again, the idea of that
37:23
Lee Woods: at the… almost at the end of every freaking panel, I'm smiling, right? It's like, ugh, I like that.
37:29
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
37:30
Tad Eggleston: I mean, I love that it somehow makes me smile and think all at once.
37:36
Tad Eggleston: When you were bringing up the, the, you know, the way you frame it when you're looking at these books, and I love that you frame it that way, because I… I pick these books on vibe.
37:47
Tad Eggleston: Like, like, I know what the book club is, and I'm like, does this feel like it somehow belongs in this book club? That's, that, like, I don't let myself…
37:57
Tad Eggleston: Think too hard about picking the books.
38:00
Tad Eggleston: Because I, I'm, I'm like…
38:03
Tad Eggleston: Frankly, I think, you know, knowing my own… overthinking, autistic… brain.
38:12
Tad Eggleston: If I thought too hard about it, I would never pick the next book.
38:17
Tad Eggleston: So I force myself to go on vibes. So I love it when you come back and have put it in that frame, particularly because as you do, I start thinking about it, like, this is a book of resistance. It's resisting…
38:32
Tad Eggleston: complacency. It's resisting accepting…
38:38
Tad Eggleston: The world as you think it's supposed to be if it doesn't feel like the world you want it to be.
38:45
Tad Eggleston: It's resisting the idea that you have to think like others.
38:50
Tad Eggleston: And it's certainly about survival, because it's about, like… NOT!
38:55
Tad Eggleston: Getting caught in a quagmire of your own brain.
38:59
Tad Eggleston: It's about unraveling difficult…
39:05
Tad Eggleston: Concepts, or thoughts, or feelings, or emotions, and… and… and finding contentment and peace and happiness and joy.
39:16
Tad Eggleston: Out of them, rather than allowing them to take you to… Despair, or anger, or…
39:24
Tad Eggleston: You know what I mean?
39:26
Lee Woods: Oh, yeah.
39:27
Lee Woods: I… I definitely… it… I think there was one, I can't find it right now, but there was a…
39:33
Lee Woods: a short on resistance for me, where it was just like, It was resistant.
39:39
Lee Woods: to this idea that… of the anxiety, especially, like, the challenges that the anxiety can present. But there was also, like.
39:47
Lee Woods: It's resistant in that it can change.
39:51
Lee Woods: that you can think about it differently, right? And…
39:55
Lee Woods: I would argue that that is a form of resistance.
39:58
Lee Woods: is going against the status quo, right?
40:01
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
40:01
Lee Woods: Yeah, this is the way people think, but you don't have to think that way, or you don't have to experience it that way.
40:07
Lee Woods: And there's a big part of…
40:09
Lee Woods: choice in that, which I found to be, like, very, important to sort of note.
40:17
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, I was having a conversation with a friend this week where they were dealing with…
40:24
Tad Eggleston: A work environment where there was a lot of things that…
40:29
Tad Eggleston: like, the responses, that's how we've always done them. And with there being a couple of problems.
40:38
Tad Eggleston: To that, the first that, like…
40:41
Tad Eggleston: So little of it has been codified that, like, If… if you're…
40:47
Tad Eggleston: If you're new to the work environment.
40:50
Tad Eggleston: you don't know. This is how… you know, they have a lot of things that they do well on autopilot, except that it's not good autopilot if… if not everybody knows…
41:03
Tad Eggleston: The process that isn't… written down, or… or…
41:10
Tad Eggleston: referred to, or whatever. But then the other question is, like, okay, this is how you've always done it, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't also be able to say.
41:20
Tad Eggleston: Why is this how we've always done it?
41:26
Tad Eggleston: Have… have we always done it this way, and it works because it should work?
41:30
Tad Eggleston: And because it will always work.
41:33
Tad Eggleston: And because we really have figured out the best way to make it work, or have we always done it this way, and we just haven't run into massive problems yet, and therefore nobody's bothered to do anything?
41:47
Tad Eggleston: Right. And it could be better, or it… or… or there are small problems that we ignore, because they're not big enough problems, or, you know, I think…
41:58
Tad Eggleston: I think there's value to… to… like…
42:05
Tad Eggleston: one of the reasons that writing is the things that separates humans, just like, I mean, have you ever read, Sapiens?
42:13
Tad Eggleston: I think Noah Houdari?
42:15
Lee Woods: I'm familiar with the title, but no, I've not read it.
42:18
Tad Eggleston: it's a fascinating book, and, like, there are parts of it that I love, and parts of it that I think are… are still a work in progress, or…
42:28
Tad Eggleston: Or… or show that it's an anthropologist's book not looking at enough other…
42:35
Tad Eggleston: Like, I… I… I tend to like…
42:39
Tad Eggleston: The… the more different angles a work comes from…
42:44
Tad Eggleston: particularly when looking at big questions. But one of the things that he posits that I… that I do love is that
42:53
Tad Eggleston: what… separates… Homo sapiens from… likely previous… Homo species.
43:05
Tad Eggleston: And, and certainly, non-homo species.
43:11
Tad Eggleston: is the ability… to share fiction.
43:16
Tad Eggleston: And when he says that, he doesn't just mean, like, fiction as in literature or comics or whatnot, he means, like.
43:26
Tad Eggleston: What's a corporation?
43:32
Tad Eggleston: Corporation isn't… Real, except that we've agreed that it's real.
43:40
Tad Eggleston: What's money?
43:42
Lee Woods: Yep.
43:43
Tad Eggleston: Money is not real, except that we've agreed that it is real.
43:48
Tad Eggleston: I mean, to me, this is like… this is the… there are two questions that cryptocurrency people don't seem to ask that…
43:58
Tad Eggleston: That are essential to… to… whether or not it's valuable. The first is, what problem does it solve?
44:08
Tad Eggleston: Why do we need cryptocurrency when we have other currency?
44:13
Tad Eggleston: And the second is… Is it good for currency to fluctuate in value?
44:21
Lee Woods: Hmm.
44:24
Tad Eggleston: what is the purpose of… I mean.
44:26
Lee Woods: Huh?
44:27
Tad Eggleston: We… we talk about inflation all the time, like, like…
44:35
Tad Eggleston: Cryptocurrency going up in price is massive deflation. Deflation can be really bad. If it drops in price.
44:44
Tad Eggleston: That's massive inflation. You know, suddenly your one Bitcoin buys you half as much as it used to. That's 50% inflation.
44:54
Lee Woods: Yeah.
44:56
Tad Eggleston: If it's currency.
45:01
Tad Eggleston: I don't know exactly what to call it, but it feels like it's not really currency. It's more like stock, except that stock's supposed to be tied to something, so it's like this weird gambling market.
45:14
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
45:15
Lee Woods: But, I mean, yeah, I think you're really illustrating the point, right? It's, like, how you think about things, right?
45:21
Tad Eggleston: Right.
45:21
Lee Woods: how often do we do that, right? Because for those of you listening, it's like when, Tab was asked… asking… asked the question of, is it good that money should fluctuate? I'm just like, I don't know. I was like, I don't know. I'd never…
45:36
Tad Eggleston: Well, I mean, you are now a shop owner.
45:41
Tad Eggleston: If a dollar will buy a comic book when you get it as a shop owner, but the next day it'll only buy half a comic book? Is that a good thing?
45:53
Lee Woods: It's definitely challenging.
45:54
Tad Eggleston: It's really hard to stay in business.
45:56
Lee Woods: Oh, very hard.
45:59
Tad Eggleston: I mean, kind of the entire point of currency
46:03
Tad Eggleston: Is that we don't have to… we can use this fictional thing.
46:08
Tad Eggleston: Rather than having to go, how many eggs equals a comic book?
46:14
Tad Eggleston: How many hours of washing your car equals a comic book?
46:18
Lee Woods: Right.
46:20
Tad Eggleston: It can go, oh, washing your car equals $20, a comic book equals $5.
46:28
Tad Eggleston: I can wash somebody else's car, not even your car, and then come buy 4 comic books from you.
46:34
Lee Woods: Right.
46:35
Tad Eggleston: But, if… if in between me washing the car for $20, and me coming to the store to buy comic books, that $20 became worth $10.
46:48
Tad Eggleston: then I can get half as much for it.
46:50
Lee Woods: Right.
46:51
Tad Eggleston: And that's what currency fluctuation is. Like, which is why, like, everybody would… every time people are, oh, you gotta get on cryptocurrency, you can make so much money, I'm like, that's not a good thing!
47:06
Lee Woods: Yeah, at least for me, it's…
47:09
Lee Woods: It goes back to, because I don't know… Nearly anything about cryptocurrency.
47:13
Tad Eggleston: Did it?
47:14
Lee Woods: But it's being able to ask those questions, right? And… Even as a.
47:19
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, no, I didn't mean to make it economic.
47:21
Lee Woods: No, no, no, no.
47:22
Tad Eggleston: I want to make that clear to listeners or whatnot, and while I'm pretty certain that my long-term societal thoughts on cryptocurrency are true, I also think that part of the problem might be the word currency. It might have…
47:37
Tad Eggleston: a legitimate purpose.
47:41
Tad Eggleston: if we were looking at it as something other than currency, I don't think it fits the definition of currency.
47:48
Lee Woods: And thank you, because that's also very important, is, like, these words that we use, and the sort of weight or meaning that they have to us, right? The whole idea, like, why is…
48:00
Lee Woods: just think about the words, because I work a lot with patients with anger, the idea of
48:07
Lee Woods: What's the difference between mad and rage?
48:11
Tad Eggleston: Yeah?
48:12
Lee Woods: Right? Those two words, they're in the family, as it were, in quotes here. Family of, anger.
48:20
Tad Eggleston: Probably come up as synonyms in a lot of… in a lot of thesauruses.
48:25
Lee Woods: But they mean two completely different things.
48:28
Lee Woods: Right? So…
48:30
Tad Eggleston: I think for most people.
48:32
Tad Eggleston: Yeah. And what rage means probably has a massive…
48:37
Tad Eggleston: you know, my rage, your rage, and Joe's rage could be completely different rages.
48:42
Lee Woods: 100%. And how they look, and how they present themselves, right?
48:45
Tad Eggleston: Right.
48:46
Lee Woods: So it's…
48:47
Lee Woods: even those words or currencies, like, what does it mean? Because we have this sort of dictionary definition, but then we can have
48:56
Lee Woods: A sort of symbolic definition to us.
49:00
Lee Woods: And how we look and think about those things, right?
49:04
Lee Woods: So…
49:06
Lee Woods: Not just looking at how we think, but the word choice, because you're… you're right, in terms of how we communicate with one another. If not orally, it's written.
49:15
Lee Woods: Right? So, when we write things.
49:18
Lee Woods: And oh my goodness, I'm just reminded of, again, another example of my English teacher in a technical school.
49:27
Lee Woods: Where he just went through this example of, how language can impact
49:34
Lee Woods: emotion and feeling and how you react to a story, and he just went through a simple example of how, going through, and it was a puppy in one example, and then a mongrel
49:45
Lee Woods: And another example. But other than that one word.
49:49
Lee Woods: It was the same… same paragraph, but it has such an emotional sort of impact.
49:56
Lee Woods: And all from that sort of word choice, and…
49:59
Lee Woods: How we think about that, how we feel about those things.
50:02
Lee Woods: Extremely important.
50:04
Tad Eggleston: I mean, I always think about,
50:09
Tad Eggleston: I… I had a student that was… Semi-nonverbal?
50:15
Tad Eggleston: But he could write, and certainly, like, understood words amazingly well, that sort of thing.
50:24
Tad Eggleston: And discovered comics through me, and part of the reason he wound up discovering them through me is nobody realized
50:31
Tad Eggleston: Until the first time, like, he was looking over my shoulder at something.
50:37
Tad Eggleston: Cause he also, like… He very rarely kept his eyes in one place for very long.
50:43
Tad Eggleston: So, like, he always had to have things read to him because… because kind of the assumption that we worked from is he didn't have the motor control.
50:52
Tad Eggleston: to read. He had the processing power to take the words and whatnot.
50:56
Tad Eggleston: but, like, we discovered…
51:00
Tad Eggleston: At one point that, like, no, actually, he could take in massive amounts visually at a glance.
51:08
Lee Woods: Okay.
51:09
Tad Eggleston: And that's when he and I started exploring comic books one time, and I remember
51:16
Tad Eggleston: we were… I forget… in Nate Powell's Save It For Later.
51:21
Tad Eggleston: There is a… A representation of the Arkansas School desegregation?
51:37
Tad Eggleston: Okay. Where the boy and the girl are literally escorted to class by… the National Guard.
51:46
Tad Eggleston: And Nate Powell made the…
51:50
Tad Eggleston: the decision, and like, talking to Nate, he hadn't fully…
51:54
Tad Eggleston: grasped why he'd done it, but he loved… loved what my students said.
51:58
Tad Eggleston: Had made the decision to…
52:06
Tad Eggleston: Represent the characters, or at least the kids.
52:12
Tad Eggleston: as… as… anthropomorphomorphic… Puppies.
52:18
Tad Eggleston: Got it. And what my students said, like.
52:24
Tad Eggleston: Talking about that decision, like, was… Nobody thinks any puppy…
52:32
Tad Eggleston: Is inherently different from another puppy.
52:38
Lee Woods: Huh.
52:38
Tad Eggleston: Nobody looks at a dog and says, oh, that dog is brown, so they're different from this dog that's yellow.
52:48
Lee Woods: Huh.
52:51
Lee Woods: Okay.
52:54
Tad Eggleston: You know, so his argument was that it added power to the scene, because it emphasized
53:01
Tad Eggleston: That the color was, a human choice.
53:07
Tad Eggleston: Not an actual… factor.
53:13
Tad Eggleston: And I guess where I'm going with this is, like, our visual vocabulary also matters. The way we…
53:20
Tad Eggleston: Perceive things the way we…
53:24
Tad Eggleston: I mean, for that matter, let's just think of our much-maligned medium to begin with.
53:30
Tad Eggleston: How many people, the second you tell them that you're into comics, are like, oh, I got over those when I was kids.
53:36
Lee Woods: Yep.
53:38
Tad Eggleston: And it's like…
53:43
Tad Eggleston: Then you're missing a lot of really great stuff.
53:47
Lee Woods: A little bit.
53:49
Tad Eggleston: I mean, that's like deciding that because I had read all of the Roald Dahl books…
53:55
Tad Eggleston: that… that I was over-reading because I'd grown out of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.
54:01
Lee Woods: Yeah.
54:03
Tad Eggleston: You know what I mean? It's like, I watched all the Disney movies, and I'm done with movies… and I watched all the Disney… I watched the man in the gray flannel suit, so I know… I know… like, I've grown out of movies.
54:20
Lee Woods: Right.
54:22
Lee Woods: That's kid stuff.
54:24
Tad Eggleston: Right. But, like, it's the only medium, like, that the medium…
54:32
Tad Eggleston: I mean, to a certain extent, cartoons, if you consider cartoons separate from film, which they belong, separate from film, they're kind of tangential to film, but I would be willing to call them a medium rather than a genre.
54:43
Lee Woods: Sure.
54:44
Tad Eggleston: You know, comics and cartoons are treated as mediums.
54:51
Tad Eggleston: That are for kids.
54:53
Lee Woods: Right.
54:58
Lee Woods: That talks a lot to the perspective, right?
55:01
Tad Eggleston: Right.
55:05
Tad Eggleston: Even as we talk about these… these comics, and the fact that they take really complicated things, and… and, like.
55:14
Tad Eggleston: allow us to think and see them in ways that we couldn't manage to do before, because we were only thinking linguistically. And being able to see the…
55:28
Tad Eggleston: the shape of things winds up mattering. I mean, I like a lot of his abstract ones, like the one where he's climbing the mountain.
55:37
Tad Eggleston: and you're actually reading down in Vs, and eventually you get to, am I… am I seeing the world from a new perspective, or looking back on what I came from, you know, and… but, like.
55:50
Tad Eggleston: Not just the visuals of the story, but the specific
55:55
Tad Eggleston: Visual way that the story is told.
55:59
Tad Eggleston: Gives that dichotomy of… cause… cause that…
56:04
Tad Eggleston: That question at the end, just like every part going up to it.
56:09
Tad Eggleston: was mostly rhetorical. The answer is yes.
56:13
Tad Eggleston: Yes, you're seeing the world in front of you, and you're seeing how far you've come.
56:21
Tad Eggleston: It's not an either-or. You know, it, it, it… Like, the entire comic.
56:27
Tad Eggleston: Illustrates false dichotomies that we give ourselves.
56:33
Tad Eggleston: But the way it does that is, is as much in its form…
56:40
Tad Eggleston: as any of the specific images, and there's certainly no way that you could recreate that form in Prose.
56:50
Tad Eggleston: I mean, I feel like I'm describing it horribly.
56:53
Tad Eggleston: Right now, I, I, like, I don't know who listening will have any idea what I'm talking about in terms of the power of this comic.
57:07
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
57:08
Lee Woods: Yeah, it's… Such a unique… Medium, as it were.
57:15
Lee Woods: That provokes a lot of thought, and…
57:20
Lee Woods: I'm even reflecting now, not just with this group, but other groups that I've been a part of, and your podcast is…
57:26
Lee Woods: Yeah, thinking about things differently, and how I…
57:31
Lee Woods: even, I know we've even done this in Saga, right? Is I'll… I'll have read it.
57:38
Lee Woods: And I've thought about it a certain way.
57:40
Lee Woods: But then I read it again, and I think about it differently.
57:44
Tad Eggleston: Well, and the reason I love doing the book clubs is somebody else read the same thing, but they saw a different angle.
57:52
Lee Woods: Yeah, it's like someone likes the will. I… no, sorry.
57:56
Lee Woods: It's like, oh my goodness.
57:58
Lee Woods: But it… it's so interesting, too.
58:01
Tad Eggleston: I do think it's really impressive the way he makes you feel sorry for the will for, like, 4 whole issues.
58:08
Tad Eggleston: And you're ALMOST to the point that you like him.
58:12
Tad Eggleston: And then you hate him.
58:13
Lee Woods: medium.
58:14
Tad Eggleston: hate him for effort.
58:16
Lee Woods: Forever and ever. Yeah, that's…
58:19
Lee Woods: But that's… I think that's one of the beauty, not just with comics, but especially comics.
58:26
Lee Woods: being able to.
58:26
Tad Eggleston: Storytelling.
58:27
Lee Woods: Look back. Yes, story time.
58:29
Tad Eggleston: I mean, this goes back to what I commented on earlier about there being so much truth in fiction.
58:42
Tad Eggleston: You know, there might be less facts.
58:44
Tad Eggleston: The facts and truth are… I mean, that's kind of like anger and rage. They're related.
58:53
Lee Woods: But yeah, Elsa different. Oh, yeah.
58:57
Lee Woods: Well, there's a… oh my goodness, there's a famous quote by Mark Twain.
59:02
Lee Woods: It's like, the best fiction has a little bit of truth in it.
59:05
Tad Eggleston: Yep.
59:06
Lee Woods: Or don't let my… don't let your facts get in the way of my fiction, something like that.
59:10
Tad Eggleston: Something like… I mean, I'm…
59:12
Lee Woods: easier.
59:13
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, he's got a lot, but I think it…
59:20
Tad Eggleston: I think it's don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.
59:25
Lee Woods: Hmm.
59:26
Tad Eggleston: But… That might have been.
59:29
Tad Eggleston: I mean, there's the great… Quote, you know, what's the…
59:37
Tad Eggleston: Okay, now I'm going down the internet.
59:40
Lee Woods: They're in the hole.
59:44
Tad Eggleston: Don't let facts… Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
59:51
Lee Woods: That's it, thank you.
59:53
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
59:56
Lee Woods: And again, it's about, sort of…
59:59
Lee Woods: I don't want to say narrow-minded, I don't want to come across that…
1:00:02
Tad Eggleston: That is, I think, an unverified… Attribution to Twain.
1:00:12
Lee Woods: Huh.
1:00:14
Lee Woods: Today I learned.
1:00:16
Tad Eggleston: Right.
1:00:17
Lee Woods: But then it still is to the point of, like.
1:00:21
Lee Woods: Just because… and it goes back to what you were saying, is just because you've been doing it that way, and you're doing it that way.
1:00:27
Lee Woods: Is, at times, like, why do you do it that way?
1:00:31
Lee Woods: Yeah. And being able to…
1:00:34
Lee Woods: exercise that sort of mental flexibility in CBT is… that mental flexibility to think about things differently.
1:00:42
Lee Woods: Yeah. Rather than just this one and only way.
1:00:46
Tad Eggleston: Well, and, like, Empathy has become a hot button word.
1:00:55
Tad Eggleston: In our nation, lately.
1:00:58
Tad Eggleston: I think in large part because, as is too often the case, it's… it's… It's confused with both
1:01:09
Tad Eggleston: sympathy and, approval.
1:01:14
Tad Eggleston: Whereas empathy, I… I don't think, is supposed to be either. It's supposed to be… Try to understand.
1:01:28
Tad Eggleston: You know what I mean? You don't have to think that their reasoning is good to try to figure out where they're coming from.
1:01:37
Lee Woods: Right.
1:01:39
Tad Eggleston: you don't have to approve of their actions to empathize with their actions. You certainly don't have to have sympathy for the consequences that they receive from actions that you think are deplorable to empathize with why they took those actions.
1:01:53
Lee Woods: Right.
1:01:55
Tad Eggleston: But being able to step out and have that empathy… Is… Often, the difference between
1:02:11
Tad Eggleston: Looking at people who do things that… are…
1:02:18
Tad Eggleston: Completely antithetical to your own thoughts and beliefs as human or not.
1:02:27
Tad Eggleston: And, like, that's a big deal.
1:02:32
Tad Eggleston: Like, as soon as you won't allow yourself to think that they can be good human beings, and…
1:02:40
Tad Eggleston: Look at the world differently from you.
1:02:44
Tad Eggleston: it's how you wind up.
1:02:47
Tad Eggleston: with extreme actions.
1:02:50
Tad Eggleston: Because…
1:02:56
Tad Eggleston: Ew.
1:02:58
Lee Woods: Dear?
1:03:00
Tad Eggleston: We're going dark again. I don't want to go dark with this, because overall, this was a joyful book. I was really happy to reread it today.
1:03:06
Lee Woods: I think…
1:03:06
Tad Eggleston: I think it's time to go towards wrap-up.
1:03:10
Lee Woods: Whoa, where…
1:03:11
Lee Woods: Yeah, I can help bring it back in the swing. It's actually kind of funny, because I feel like we're mimicking the book a little bit, how it seems sort of chaotic and dark at times, but the sort of upswing is that one of the, again, at the risk of romanticizing psychology a little bit, is that…
1:03:27
Tad Eggleston: There are worse things to romanticize.
1:03:29
Lee Woods: That's very true.
1:03:30
Lee Woods: the beautiful thing that I love about this field, and especially the approach to CBT, is that
1:03:36
Lee Woods: You can control how you think and how you perceive.
1:03:40
Lee Woods: that even though that may be the way it is now, doesn't mean it's the way it's always going to be. So, taking that as a sort of upswing.
1:03:50
Tad Eggleston: You get to make decisions.
1:03:52
Tad Eggleston: And I think that's where I was going, is that, like.
1:03:59
Tad Eggleston: How we choose to look at ourselves, how we choose to look at others,
1:04:08
Tad Eggleston: Can have a profound impact on both how we act in the world, but also how we feel.
1:04:14
Lee Woods: Fair enough.
1:04:17
Tad Eggleston: And this is also where, like, this is another place where truth and facts can be difficult, you know, because there are people who won't allow themselves to be empathetic to people who they think have gone
1:04:32
Tad Eggleston: too far in one direction, because, well, it's just not true. There's nothing that's ever gonna change them to be that…
1:04:40
Tad Eggleston: Good, meaningful, whatever, and it's like…
1:04:46
Tad Eggleston: you're confusing facts with truth. It might be a fact that it's gonna be hard to change them, or that you're unlikely to change them, or whatever, but there is truth
1:04:58
Tad Eggleston: 2… They are not irredeemable.
1:05:03
Tad Eggleston: And that truth is helpful to you, whether it's fact or not.
1:05:07
Tad Eggleston: Like, one of the… probably the biggest foundation of my own life view that I wind up having
1:05:19
Tad Eggleston: Arguments and or spirited discussions with people about the most, because…
1:05:26
Tad Eggleston: either I have trouble expressing it properly, or they have trouble wrapping their head around what I mean, is… is assume the best intentions.
1:05:37
Tad Eggleston: I bend over backwards, no matter what the situation, to assume the best intentions. That doesn't mean that they have good intentions.
1:05:47
Tad Eggleston: or attentions that I agree with. It certainly doesn't mean that their actions are automatically good or whatever. It's trying to put myself
1:05:56
Tad Eggleston: in their shoes.
1:06:01
Tad Eggleston: And figure out what the best intentions that fit their course of action.
1:06:07
Tad Eggleston: are. And assuming… For my purposes, until new information tells me otherwise.
1:06:15
Tad Eggleston: That that's the truth.
1:06:19
Tad Eggleston: And it doesn't matter if it's the truth, first of all.
1:06:26
Tad Eggleston: Because I am never gonna hurt myself.
1:06:30
Tad Eggleston: By respecting somebody too much.
1:06:35
Tad Eggleston: I am never gonna hurt myself by believing too much in humanity.
1:06:43
Tad Eggleston: Because assuming the best intentions doesn't mean
1:06:47
Tad Eggleston: like, not thinking realistically about what, like, figuring out their intentions, you know, those same best intentions that could lead to that bad action could lead to other bad actions, you know? It's not about, like, oh, not preparing for the worst.
1:07:03
Tad Eggleston: Right. It's about, I'm not going to decide that they chose to be the villain of their own movie.
1:07:13
Tad Eggleston: They have a version of this where they're the hero. What…
1:07:19
Tad Eggleston: how can I look at this?
1:07:21
Tad Eggleston: Where they could feel like they're the hero. That's what assume the best intentions means to me.
1:07:27
Tad Eggleston: And it might mean that they're completely uninformed, or have faulty logic, or, you know, all sorts of things that infuriate me beyond belief.
1:07:39
Tad Eggleston: But don't make them bad people.
1:07:41
Lee Woods: Right.
1:07:43
Tad Eggleston: Because I don't think there are many bad people.
1:07:48
Tad Eggleston: I mean… I guess it depends on your definition. I don't think there are many intentionally bad people.
1:07:57
Lee Woods: Yeah, okay.
1:07:58
Tad Eggleston: I think there are… there are many people who… who…
1:08:01
Tad Eggleston: The sum of their actions makes it very hard to call them good people.
1:08:06
Lee Woods: Okay.
1:08:08
Lee Woods: But I know.
1:08:09
Tad Eggleston: Don't think that they did it because they wanted to hurt you.
1:08:14
Tad Eggleston: I think… I think the number of times somebody goes out and says, I want to hurt this person.
1:08:20
Tad Eggleston: Versus, I need this for me, or I want this for me.
1:08:25
Tad Eggleston: Right. Or, I think the world owes me this.
1:08:29
Tad Eggleston: Is actually pretty slim.
1:08:32
Tad Eggleston: I mean, there is the revenge aspect.
1:08:35
Tad Eggleston: I mean, I'm not saying it never happens where there is the goal to hurt this person, but I think that's one of the most rare
1:08:44
Tad Eggleston: motivations for actions. Just because the return sucks.
1:08:49
Lee Woods: It never really gets, fulfilled. Like, it's never really fulfilled.
1:08:55
Tad Eggleston: I think most of us, like, once hurt somebody on purpose when we were a kid, and went.
1:09:02
Tad Eggleston: Oh, God, I feel… I feel worse, not better, and stopped!
1:09:07
Lee Woods: Generally.
1:09:08
Tad Eggleston: I mean, you know what I mean? I don't even think that's something that most of us needed to be taught-taught.
1:09:16
Tad Eggleston: I think most of us, even when we dream of other people having pain, the second it turns to how could we inflict it, it becomes really quickly. That seems like a lot of effort for no return.
1:09:29
Lee Woods: I mean…
1:09:30
Tad Eggleston: And for me personally, as soon as my brain goes that way, that's when I know I'm in a depressive state.
1:09:37
Tad Eggleston: Because I'm starting to have delusional thoughts.
1:09:42
Tad Eggleston: Y-you know, the idea that anything would be solved by me
1:09:48
Tad Eggleston: Even in an aha moment, making somebody feel bad.
1:09:53
Tad Eggleston: It's delusional, I know better.
1:09:55
Tad Eggleston: So as soon as I'm fixated on…
1:09:58
Tad Eggleston: How can I put together my speech that makes them go, oh my god, I was wrong, I hurt so much?
1:10:06
Lee Woods: Yep.
1:10:06
Tad Eggleston: Oh, wait, I'm being delusional. That's right, I'm bipolar, that happens to me.
1:10:12
Tad Eggleston: How do I get out of this?
1:10:15
Lee Woods: That's such a great illustration example, and I appreciate you sharing that, this idea of
1:10:20
Lee Woods: I'm thinking this way. Why am I thinking this way? I don't want to think this way. Right. I'm going to think about this differently.
1:10:28
Tad Eggleston: Probably not actually gonna be made better by…
1:10:31
Tad Eggleston: Making that person who just felt like they were doing their job.
1:10:38
Tad Eggleston: Even if I can't understand how they put themselves in that… I know where they were at.
1:10:44
Tad Eggleston: I don't understand all of the… all of the assumptions or whatever that got them there. They don't make sense to me. That's why I'm not like that.
1:10:53
Lee Woods: Right.
1:10:56
Tad Eggleston: But I am actually certain that all of those things… I don't think this is a bad person, even though the things that they are doing hurt me.
1:11:03
Lee Woods: Right.
1:11:05
Tad Eggleston: I don't… I think… I think my pain is a side effect of what they think is a good thing, not the purpose of what they're doing.
1:11:15
Lee Woods: Gotcha.
1:11:16
Tad Eggleston: Does that make sense?
1:11:19
Lee Woods: Interesting.
1:11:20
Tad Eggleston: I mean, I hate to even go on this level. I think… not necessarily all of them, but probably a lot of…
1:11:28
Tad Eggleston: the rank-and-file, like, ICE and Border Patrol people, truly think that they're making A safer nation.
1:11:42
Tad Eggleston: And that the pain, the suffering that they're experiencing and causing are a side effect of a greater good.
1:11:51
Tad Eggleston: I don't agree with them.
1:11:52
Tad Eggleston: I'm really bothered by what level of misinformation, lack of empathy, lack of insight, lack of self-reflection.
1:12:05
Tad Eggleston: society… I mean, this is where we go back to social psychology, like, the social psychology of a nation where anybody could easily get themselves in that mindset is really terrifying to me. But, not surprising to me, we're a nation that, like.
1:12:21
Tad Eggleston: Would rather have kids go through lockdown drills as part of every year of school than… than…
1:12:29
Tad Eggleston: Think rationally about guns.
1:12:36
Tad Eggleston: I mean, what's the psychology of that?
1:12:40
Lee Woods: Yeah, I mean…
1:12:42
Tad Eggleston: I mean, I'm not even somebody who wants… I mean, I have reached a point.
1:12:47
Tad Eggleston: Where I think taking all of the guns away would be the lesser of two evils?
1:12:53
Tad Eggleston: But I am not a take-all-the-guns-away guy. Until… until the gun rights people got to the point where they
1:13:02
Tad Eggleston: had gotten the Supreme Court to treat the Second Amendment like it was so absolute that I'm worried about somebody saying, oh, no, you can't take away my tactical nuke. I'm a law-abiding citizen. I haven't used my nuclear bomb on anybody.
1:13:19
Tad Eggleston: Of course you're a law-abiding citizen, there's no law that… You've had to abide by!
1:13:29
Lee Woods: It's an interesting situation, and especially when it comes to the social aspect of it, right? It's…
1:13:35
Lee Woods: It goes back to…
1:13:39
Lee Woods: this idea of we have… how many hundreds of people in this country now? And it's sort of broken down into.
1:13:46
Tad Eggleston: million.
1:13:47
Lee Woods: 300 million, and this idea…
1:13:49
Tad Eggleston: 450 million guns.
1:13:52
Lee Woods: this idea of simple is hard, right? And we got 450 million… oh, excuse me, 300 million people, and…
1:14:00
Tad Eggleston: About 350 million. About 350 million people, about 450 million guns.
1:14:06
Tad Eggleston: It's really crossed over, where we have more guns than people in this nation.
1:14:10
Lee Woods: But the idea of, like, 350 million people and the way we think about things is in two ways.
1:14:16
Tad Eggleston: Right.
1:14:17
Lee Woods: It's… It's… Sometimes simple is hard, and sometimes simple, it doesn't do us justice, because… As people.
1:14:27
Lee Woods: The brain… the way our brains develop is we think about things differently and more nuanced.
1:14:33
Lee Woods: Meh?
1:14:33
Tad Eggleston: Well, and, like, just going back to the metacognition standpoint, and, like, early on, I, I met a,
1:14:41
Tad Eggleston: Like, one of the biggest differences in terms of how people think is how many people they think they're responsible for considering.
1:14:50
Tad Eggleston: I think… I think, in general,
1:14:57
Tad Eggleston: The people who think that annual lockdown drills are…
1:15:05
Tad Eggleston: Are an okay price to pay for…
1:15:09
Tad Eggleston: Not having laws about where you can carry guns.
1:15:14
Tad Eggleston: not even talking about the laws about what guns you can… I mean, the biggest, biggest problem, like, if we're having real conversations, is like…
1:15:25
Tad Eggleston: So many of these shootings, no law has been broken until they pull the trigger.
1:15:34
Tad Eggleston: You know, if you can't… if you can't protect people before the trigger's pulled, then… then, like, what the hell's the point?
1:15:41
Tad Eggleston: If you can't have the police officer go, hey, this isn't a place that you should be carrying your AR-15, please take it home and put it in your safe.
1:15:53
Tad Eggleston: Oh, you're not willing to do that? I need to take you in for questioning, because I'm curious as to why you need to carry an AR-15 down Main Street.
1:16:03
Tad Eggleston: But then we tell kids that they have to prepare for that, like, where I'm going is, like.
1:16:09
Tad Eggleston: What does that tell the kids about their value?
1:16:16
Tad Eggleston: And yeah, some of them don't know anything about it, and therefore it's just, like, a thing that they do. But at some point, some of them are gonna learn.
1:16:23
Tad Eggleston: Or some of them are gonna work it out for themselves, because it's not hard to think that through. It's not hard to think through the… I mean, for that matter.
1:16:31
Tad Eggleston: and I've had enough kids, like, say this to me during lockdown drills, like.
1:16:37
Tad Eggleston: Aside from the fact that doing a lockdown drill is, like, a band-aid on a cancer, like…
1:16:46
Tad Eggleston: You know the next shooter is probably in the room while you're doing the lockdown drill, right?
1:16:53
Tad Eggleston: They're… they're counterproductive.
1:16:55
Tad Eggleston: And generally, by high school, kids are pretty aware of that. It's like, why are we telling the one among us who might go crazy…
1:17:03
Tad Eggleston: Exactly what we're gonna do, so that they can prepare for that.
1:17:11
Tad Eggleston: And the answer is because we're not willing to, to have that… That thinking about thinking conversation.
1:17:20
Tad Eggleston: That… that meta-conversation, that… that makes certain we're talking about the same things conversation.
1:17:27
Lee Woods: Seems that way.
1:17:29
Tad Eggleston: You know, I mean, how often do debates
1:17:33
Tad Eggleston: in both the public and private sphere, wind up coming down to…
1:17:39
Tad Eggleston: One party insisting that the other party means something that the other party is saying is not what they mean.
1:17:49
Tad Eggleston: you know, in the public sphere, like, whether it's gun rights versus gun control, I'm not saying, and most people aren't saying, take away all the guns, it's like, have a level of gun responsibility on par with driving responsibility. Licenses, tests to prove that you can shoot straight.
1:18:05
Tad Eggleston: You know?
1:18:07
Tad Eggleston: Etc.
1:18:12
Tad Eggleston: I mean, for that matter, like, if somebody is driving your car, and it blows a red light on a red light camera, you're responsible for the ticket.
1:18:23
Tad Eggleston: If somebody borrows your gun, you're not responsible for what they do with it.
1:18:30
Tad Eggleston: You're not even responsible… really responsible for having reported it stolen, or borrowed, or… I mean, like…
1:18:38
Tad Eggleston: There is so much that could be done long before
1:18:41
Tad Eggleston: I'm gonna get off guns, but just because that's not where I wanted to go overall, it's just one of the places that sticks in my head a lot because of my own experiences.
1:18:56
Tad Eggleston: But, like, I mean, to use another, public, public, you know,
1:19:04
Tad Eggleston: Pro-life people always wanted to call pro-abortion… or pro… pro-choice people pro-abortion people.
1:19:11
Tad Eggleston: You know, even when they're pro-abortion people, or pro-abortion people, they don't think of themselves as pro-abortion people, they think of themselves as women's rights people, or healthcare choice people, like, because you've got an issue where it's not as simple as the fetus.
1:19:27
Tad Eggleston: or the fertilized egg, depending on what stage you're at, you've got the mother. The mother's a human being, too.
1:19:34
Tad Eggleston: Y-you know… But when both sides of the argument refuse to acknowledge any part or discount
1:19:44
Tad Eggleston: all parts of where the other side is coming from, you don't get to have a conversation.
1:19:51
Tad Eggleston: Bomb.
1:19:55
Tad Eggleston: Because you don't agree on the terms.
1:19:58
Tad Eggleston: You don't agree on… and we started this out with Iran.
1:20:01
Tad Eggleston: You know, the two 10-point… the two 10-point basis is of…
1:20:08
Tad Eggleston: of the ceasefire were… that got published, the one published by the US and the one published by Iran were different enough that anybody who looked at them went, oh yeah, negotiation is gonna be hard, because they think, or at least they're publicly saying, they're at very different places.
1:20:29
Tad Eggleston: You gotta agree to some, like, foundational terms.
1:20:37
Tad Eggleston: So that you know you're talking about the same thing.
1:20:42
Tad Eggleston: Before you can have a discussion. And that actually includes with yourself.
1:20:46
Tad Eggleston: Like, like, like, when you're working with yourself, and you use the same word.
1:20:52
Tad Eggleston: for… I'm angry that I stubbed my toe, and I'm angry that…
1:21:00
Tad Eggleston: my kid crashed the car, and I'm angry that I got drunk and slapped my wife,
1:21:11
Tad Eggleston: You don't have the perspective that those are 3 very different things.
1:21:20
Tad Eggleston: You know,
1:21:25
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, I'm fascinated by language. I don't think you've… I don't know if you've noticed that about me, Lee.
1:21:30
Lee Woods: Oh, God.
1:21:30
Tad Eggleston: I'm fascinated.
1:21:31
Lee Woods: I picked up on that.
1:21:33
Tad Eggleston: Like, I'm gonna end with, with, because it's a fun one, and I'll give the moral of the story first. The, the Catherine Woods translation of The Little Prince is the one that, that.
1:21:46
Tad Eggleston: is the one that should be purchased, and the only one that should be purchased, because the other translations might be more technically accurate between French and English, but they lose the whimsy, poetry, and silliness of the story, and I can literally
1:22:03
Tad Eggleston: quote from, like, page 2 Like, all you need to know
1:22:08
Tad Eggleston: for why… why this is true. In newer translations, there's a line that says, Grown-ups do not understand.
1:22:21
Tad Eggleston: And it is difficult for children to explain things to them.
1:22:26
Tad Eggleston: The original translation was…
1:22:29
Tad Eggleston: Grown-ups never understand anything by themselves, and it is tiresome for children to always and forever be explaining things to them.
1:22:41
Lee Woods: Okay, pretty good.
1:22:42
Tad Eggleston: Literal meanings are very much the same.
1:22:48
Tad Eggleston: But one is beautiful, and sinks in, and one is boring, and open to huge interpretation.
1:22:58
Tad Eggleston: And ironically, it's the more poetic one that has less interpretation.
1:23:04
Tad Eggleston: Available to it.
1:23:07
Tad Eggleston: You know… That, I think, unless you have any other last words, is a great place 2.
1:23:16
Tad Eggleston: to end it. The book was Grant Snyder's Thinking About Thinking. I cannot recommend it enough. I cannot recommend Grant's work, period, enough. Poetry Comics.
1:23:29
Tad Eggleston: I will judge you by your bookshelf.
1:23:31
Tad Eggleston: There's some more.
1:23:33
Tad Eggleston: His, his, his substack is also fantastic reading. So for the Joy Resistance, Hope, and Survival book club and support group.
1:23:44
Tad Eggleston: There was more of a book club and therapy session.
1:23:47
Tad Eggleston: This… this month.
1:23:48
Tad Eggleston: One of these days, we'll have a group again.
1:23:53
Tad Eggleston: This has been Lee Woods from Psycho Comicology, and we will see you after the next page.