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Why is "Original Sin" Trending? What Does It Mean? || SLP380 · The Speak Life Podcast

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: On the 3rd of October 2020, Speak Life released an interview with Catherine Burble Singh on my YouTube channel.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: She is the founder and headteacher at Michaela Community School in Brent, London.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Often described as Britain's strictest head teacher, she has a traditional yet radical approach to education.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_06: Today on Reset, we are going back to the beginning with Britain's strictest headteacher.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: The interview was part of a reset series, going back to the ancient text of Genesis to see how our great origin story speaks into the present day.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: And now, over a year after that interview, Catherine Burble Singh has sparked major controversy on social media with recent comments about how original sin relates to children.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: She was effectively paraphrasing what she said to us.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: But it didn't go down well.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: In this episode, Lynn Scrivener and Mate Morgan Hulk asked the question Why is original sin making headlines?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_06: Do you get it?
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_06: Um I'm Glenn Scrivener.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_03: That was the joke.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: That was the joke.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, hello, hello, very good.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_03: Well, hello, also.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_03: My name is Nate Morganlock.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to the Speakeasy on the 1st of November 2021.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_06: And if you like silly puns about uh medieval Christianity, you have come to the right place.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_03: There's nowhere else you should be right now.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um But what are we gonna talk about?
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: We are gonna not talk about medieval Christianity, but the very beating heart of Christianity.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_07: Yes.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_03: Which is and the doctrine of original sin.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_03: Goodness me.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like the camera should have zoomed down to original sin.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_06: Hang on, mate.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_06: Isn't that that crazy old Catholic doctrine that God hates babies?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_06: Is that is that what we mean by original sin?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_06: I think that's what some people mean, right?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: Isn't it?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why they're so angry.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: That uh that people might believe in original sin in the 21st century.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_06: And uh it's it's been a wonderful week for for those of us who are interested in old doctrines like original sin, because uh usually YouTubers go chasing the trends, but now the trends are chasing us.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_03: They come for us.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_06: And thank God for Catherine Burbel Singh, uh, who on the 27th of October tweeted out about original sin, and it has caused uh an online furore.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_06: Furore, a weekend fur furore, yes, furore, yes, of people really outraged that she could believe in original sin, thereby proving that original sin is very much a thing.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they've been so just for those who don't know, Catherine Burble Singh is known as Britain's strictest head teacher.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_03: Is that how she he's sort of often termed?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I think places like the Daily Mail would put that in the in the headline, and I and I don't think she I don't think she hates that, you know, designation.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_06: Um she believes in discipline and uh and she's a traditionalist when it comes to education, and you know, everyone everyone is silent in the halls of of Hermica school in East London and very strict uniform rules as well, yes, homework and that sort of stuff.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_06: No screens, and she's she's very good at getting parents to be um on their kids, and you have not abdicated your responsibility as parents, and we work together, and so she she has a lot of traditional views in that sense.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: She's not a Christian, she is agnostic, she's I've heard a great phrase she's Christian adjacent.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really know what that means.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: She's next to Christians a lot.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: She's an ally.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Let's call her an ally.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_06: And she's certainly proved an ally this week in mentioning a doctrine, and we'll put it on the screen.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_06: Um here it was on the 27th of October.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_06: Um, if you don't know how Twitter works, um, the one down at the bottom by Pascal Triangle was the original message to her, and uh Pascal Triangle, um, which is great.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_06: Probably not a real name, if it is well done, Mum and Dad.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_06: Mr.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_06: and Mrs.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_06: Triangle.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_06: What should we know?
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_06: Pulling it down the back there.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_06: I want isosceles.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_06: No, we're gonna have Pascal.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_06: Um, we are all born bad in adverted commas, says Pascal Triangle, and that is why it's so important to be morally educated and not just conditioned.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_06: Uh, to which Catherine responded, exactly, original sin.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_06: And here, the this is the epicenter of the earthquake that then erupted.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_06: Uh, children need to be taught right from wrong and then habituated into choosing good over evil.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_06: That requires love.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_06: Notice, like, you know, she the her opening gambit is because of this thing called original sin, those who take care of the children require love and constant correction from all the adults in their lives.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_06: Over years, you know, you need constancy, you need love.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_06: Moral formation is a good thing.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_06: She gives a little thumbs up.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_06: And the rest of Twitter says, Yaboo, no thank you.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_06: How dare she?
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_05: How dare you!
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um I was thinking, why is it that people have reacted so strongly?
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I think I think the reason why people react very, very strongly to the idea that children are natural-born sinners is because they assume that that will lead to cruelty against children.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_03: Because if you think a child's a sinner, somehow you're going to punish them all the time and you're going to crush crush the child, and it's associated with all sorts of outrageous sort of abuse and oppression.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_07: Yes.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_03: And where whereas the assumption is if you think of each child as a precious, delicate, pure, and unadulterated flower that has bloomed into the world, therefore you would treat that child with dignity, honor, respect, love, kindness, compassion, all that sort of stuff.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_03: And the question is whether that's actually true.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: Whether you do treat a child with compassion and love, if you already think that they're profoundly good and fundamentally good, or whether the opposite is true.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_06: If you expect from them perfection, and then the child turns out to be what all children are actually like, what's going to happen between that gap between your expectation and what the child is actually like?
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, it's it's very interesting in um in adoption, as as they kind of get you ready for adopting children from difficult backgrounds.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_06: Um, one of the most liberating things um that social workers do is say to you, oh, so-and-so is a little bit delayed in their development.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_06: Okay.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_06: And don't expect, I know that chronologically this is a five-year-old, but probably expect behavior that would be more, you know, traditionally associated with a three-year-old.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_06: And the liberation that you feel when that person says that, and you're like, oh, okay.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_06: Rather than enforcing five-year-old behavior on the three-year-old, yeah, um, actually produces mercy.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_06: It produces grace, it produces like you cut because you're trying to help them to embrace a stage of development and maturity.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_06: Which yeah you cut you cut them uh a lot of slack.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_06: Um, and I'm just uh uploading a little screenshot because uh I think this little interplay was brilliant on Twitter.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_06: Um Catherine just on Saturday said, I stand by what I said and I challenge anyone to prove me wrong.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_06: Bring forth the perfect toddlers.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_06: I can't wait to meet them.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_06: And then Nick Shepley came on came on, and this is kind of um uh indicative of the sorts of responses that Catherine's been getting all week.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_06: She said, The subtext here is deeply troubling.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_06: Toddlers are perfect by dint of existing.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_06: The idea that you expect well-disciplined, quiet, 18-month and uh uh month-old children points towards some alarming, authoritarian beliefs about children and the purpose of nurture.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_06: To which Louise Colmer just comes on and says, uh, you don't expect it?
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_06: That's the point.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_03: Perfectly, perfectly Louise Colmer.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know who you are, but well.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_03: So so it is interesting, and we'll talk about this a bit more as we I think we've got a clip from from Catherine when you spoke to her last year last year.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_03: But it's interesting because it focuses on children, and people are so anxious about what does this mean for the you know children in our society who you know in other societies and throughout history, children were like, whatever, children, we don't care about them.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas we're like, no, we really care about the children.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_03: So if you're talking about sin and children, I say that's the worst thing you could do.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_03: But if you're trying whenever I'm I'm preaching and trying to sort of demonstrate sinfulness, right, as innate and innate as well.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um but I so there was a there was a mums and toddlers group that we used to be part of, and I was involved in setting it up.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_03: And do you remember, you know that uh tiny Tykes car, you know, the one with just like a yellow top and a and a red bottom to it.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_03: And we have one of those, but we only have one, and of course we have more than one child in this thing, so there'd be a whole like hour or so of little songs and sand play and water play and all that sort of stuff, and then at some point we get out the big toys, and you go over to the cupboard and you'd like open the door, and out would come this little tiny tyke's car that everyone sees.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, and every single child just suddenly goes, Yeah, yeah, and then like in slow motion, they all run towards it, and the first one who gets in sits down and slams the door and just like mine, I have the power, and then the next child, I saw this happen multiple times in a very middle-class mums and toddlers group.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_03: The next child would walk over, open the door, grab the child who was sitting in the in the driver's seat by the hair and pull them out of the car.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, and I was just like, wow, yeah, and the mum would then run over and say, I don't know where he gets it from.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it would be weird if that was learned behaviour, right?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: If you've seen his dad or that, you know, if you see the little dad show, don't take any nonsense from the other two-year-old.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Carjacking is not something you should teach children, but you don't need to teach them, they knew how to do it.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, the great thing was that the mother then sort of says, Oh no, this isn't how we behave, yes, and trains that child, yes, as Catherine Bobel Singh's saying, and forms that child into someone who does understand that you can't go around pulling people out of their cars by their hair.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_06: And if you expected perfect behaviour from all those toddlers when the little tykes car cabinet you like what a fool you would be.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_06: And and how harsh you would then crack down on them.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_06: You know, if the but if toddlers are if toddlers are gonna toddler, yeah, then you know, sin is gonna sin, you know, as Augustine probably would have said.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_06: You know.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_06: Uh and and so I but it's not just kids, is it?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_06: I I as you were telling that story, I instantly, the the instant um relatable story that that occurred to me was when I was at Oak Hill Theological College.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_06: We went we went on a mission.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_06: Okay.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_06: And we should push in for the camera because I was so intrigued about what happened.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_06: And here's what happened: there was there was an old guy in the in a church that we were helping out with a with a week of mission.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_06: And as a gift to all us, you know, evangelists helping the church with mission, this old guy was gifting us his theological library.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_06: So there was a table in his in his dining in his dining room.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_06: It was piled high with there was Bavink everywhere, and there was John Owen and there was Calvin and there was banner of truth just like piled high.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_06: And to begin with, like the lecturer who was in charge sort of said, Okay, here's what we're gonna do.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_06: We're gonna go go rounds one at a time, and you circle the table once and you pick up a book, and then the second person circles and they pick up a book, and the third person circles they took.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_06: This took about 15 seconds before it just descended into pandemonium, and people were just like and we were all toddlers.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_06: Like it was it was it was crazy, yeah.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_06: And and one of the things about this debate about original sin is like everyone's like saying, I can't believe she's saying that about toddlers.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_06: I can't believe she's saying that about toddlers, and they are acting like toddlers, yeah, and proving because original sin is not just about you know, babies are like Hitler, yeah.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_06: It's just that we don't need to teach you to be we just we just need the handbrake to be off you, yeah, and then we see what you're like, yeah.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_06: And that and that's true throughout your life, you know.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_06: It's not just a we you had a thought about Psalm 51.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_06: Should we should we have a look at that?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's a good idea.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so Psalm thinking about Bible passages which are you know used in in the doctrine of original sin.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um and Psalm 51.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we can just how much of this we do we want to read out?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_03: We got the first the first nine verses can come on the screen.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: That's cool.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: Let's uh let me just read this then.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_03: So then um Psalm 51, to the chief musician, a psalm of David, um, when Nathan the prophet came onto him after he had gone to Bathsheba.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: I probably don't have the same version as is on that.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_03: I've got NIV, but yeah.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_03: Well you do you want to read it out for the NIV then?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_03: It'll be the same.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_03: So shall I read it?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, okay.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_06: So have mercy on me, O God, according to your unfailing love, according to your great compassion, blot out my transgressions, wash away all my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_06: For I know my transgressions and my sin is always before me.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_06: Against you, you only have I sinned, and done what is evil in your sight.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_06: So you are right in your verdict and justified when you judge.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_06: Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me, yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_06: You taught me wisdom in that secret place.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_06: Cleanse me with hyssop and I will be clean.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_06: Wash me and I will be whiter than snow.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_06: Let me hear joy and gladness, let the bones you have crushed rejoice, hide your face from my sins, and blot out all my iniquity.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_03: So so the situation is David has and this is a very familiar story to us as we're thinking about, you know, storytelling and and Nathan.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, when he approaches David after he's committed adultery with Bathsheba and murdered Bathsheba's husband, Uriah.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_03: And it's within that context that David then gives this, have mercy upon me, O God, psalm, which then inspires Allegri to make Miserari Medeus, one of the most beautiful pieces of music I think that's ever been recorded.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um and in the context of this, David is saying, he's he's acknowledging his sin, he's confessing his sin, and he's saying, When I did these things with Bathsheba, and when I murdered Uriah, this was me acting according to my human nature.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, because it my sin was right there from the moment of my conception in the womb, I was a sinner.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and then I was born as a sinner, and then I grew up as a sinner.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_03: And some people might want to go, oh well, that's David, it's it's hyperbolic, you know, he's just so sorry for what he's done, and his child that you know he he conceived with with Bathsheba is now dead, and so this, you know, is he just sort of exaggerating this as kind of grief?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_03: But absolutely not.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: This is him saying, which I've thought, if I was ever gonna film this, I think you have to have David with this with his dead child, dead son in the room.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_03: Because if if Nathan's just been to him, then the child that you born will die, and so David is there with this dead child.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: And so when David says, Behold, I was uh shapen in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: That's true for David, and David knows that it's true also for this son of his whom he bore whom he Bathsheba bore him.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_03: So the sense in which all human flesh is sinful flesh, because it's in Adam, it's it's adamic, it's its origin story is back to the Garden of Eden and the sin of Adam.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why we've all got this original sin.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_03: The original sin of Adam has now flowed throughout the human race.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_03: And without exception.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so, in order for us to be saved, we had to have someone who could come into the human race.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_06: A second a second Adam.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_06: And I find it interesting that the way David comes to confess to original sin is first being convicted of committed sin.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_06: And it's in the moment of him being con con convicted that he is a dirty rotten, like murderer and adulterer at best.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_06: But as as he realizes that, he's he's just like the person I was in that moment is the person I have always been.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_06: And what's fascinating is like before Nathan came to him, he wasn't even admitting to con you know committed sin.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_06: But it's I I think that's probably a good tactic if you want to convict someone of original sin, is probably don't go at it from the per from the perspective of, I want you to tick off this doctrine on your list of your stuff that you believe.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_06: Instead, think of think of that fight you had with your wife, right?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_06: And in that moment, when you want to say, Oh honey, I don't know what came over me, I want you to realize it didn't come over you, it came out of you.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_06: And you recognize that it came out of you, don't you?
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_06: And you recognize that the person who said the horrible thing was you, you down to your toenails.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_06: I think that's I think that's helpful because and and then you've got the good news, because then it's like if God is not the God of original sin, if he's if he's just the God who is the scorekeeper God who is just interested in, oh Nate was a blank slate, but oh, he just oh, I've just noticed he did the bad thing.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_06: Let me not you know notch that up.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_06: If if that's what God is like and I'm a I've committed sin, then I'm in trouble.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_06: But what if God is the God who knows that I'm a sinner already?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_06: That's already factored in, that's baked in, as it were, yeah.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_06: That's assumed, and the real issue is now the mercy of God to meet you in your sin.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_06: Once you're then committed of your sin, then once you're then convicted of committed sin, you're like, this is actually the world I want to live in.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_06: The world in which there's a second Adam to me, you know, me the first Adam.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_03: Completely.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_06: We've had some great uh comments on the chat.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_06: Um uh Christoph Keating, uh, she is right about moral education.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_06: The question of whether original sin is itself a sin or a propensity towards actual sin is a different one.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_06: Um so he's absolutely right that the debates have happened at the level of here's one implication of the doctrine of original sin for educationalists.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_06: And I think that that is the the level at which the debate is happening.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_06: No one's really having a debate about what about inherited guilt?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, and what sense of justice is there if there's such a concept as inherited guilt, or is it just a propensity to evil, or is it sin already?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_06: No one's having those sorts of discussions.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_03: Well, maybe they weren't this weekend, but that it is part of the conversation that takes place between critical race theory and the gospel.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: Which is the idea about inherited guilt or inherited privilege, which through no desire, action, work, will on your part, you have whiteness.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: And the way that you that must be dealt with is by an intentional active work of proving yourself anti-racist.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_03: Repentance, I guess.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_03: You know, of a kind of thing.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: There is there is and and actually not just in doing that that single work where you can be sort of forgiven, but actually committing yourself to a life of anti racist activity.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_03: Doing the work activism, yeah, do the work, do all that sort of stuff.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_03: So so in the I think yes, it probably didn't come up for the Catherine Bobel sing.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: Fiorore this weekend because it's really focused there on what's your attitude towards children and educating them.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_03: But if you look at the ways in which um the uh an original sin uh attitude stripped of its its theological moorings can be thrown into you know systemic problems of of power dynamics and oppression Olympics and all this sort of stuff.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_03: And you think, oh yeah, in one of these, in one of these, you can have someone can come and forgive you of your your sin.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, yeah.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_03: You can have someone who acts in your behalf, you can have a gospel, yeah.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: In the other one, it's actually just more moralism, more works-based.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_06: But it is it is interesting that on both sides of the political aisle, um, people have a sense of corporate guilt, right?
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_06: On the on the right, you might be more, and and you know, Catherine is not a Christian herself.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_06: She's an agnostic, doesn't believe in God necessarily.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_06: Um and yet she's comfortable, she calls herself a traditionalist when it comes to education.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_06: She's comfortable with a notion of original sin at that stage.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_06: Those on the left, oh, we hate that idea, yeah, but they're much more comfortable with what you're talking about in terms of white guilt and and and all that kind of stuff.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_06: So I wonder whether there's a a way of persuading either side of the aisle to say, oh, come on, those on the right.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_06: Um, you can't be a thoroughgoing individualist, right?
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_06: Because so often the person on the right is saying, okay, we don't want to take responsibility for the past because the past is the past, and I'm an individual and I stand all fall on my own moral performance.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_06: Except for all the original sense stuff that I also believe in.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_06: And you're like, okay, we've like both sides believe in an interplay of the individual and the corporate.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_06: And I wonder whether can there be some rapprochement between right and left and just say, No, no, they can't be.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_03: Because they're both, because they're both kind of they're both based upon duty.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's a kind of deontological ethic that they have to work with, which is it is your responsibility to just do the right thing.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_07: Yes.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_03: And there's no grace, there can't be mercy.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: Because right and left is a is just a sort of perspective, a very th shallow understanding of the world.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_03: And you unless you've got the theological dimension, unless you have a a we would say, you know, a Christological perspective on these issues, you'll never solve the problem.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_03: You'll just make moralists who are right or left leaning.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_03: And what's the point of that?
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_03: And we we actually talked about this earlier on, where I was saying that um a great example of the the horrors of the patriarchal insistence on original sin and and therefore this kind of top-down, heavy, rule-laden approach is Mr.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_03: Banks in Mary Poppins.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, right.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_03: So he's doing his song Um Uh It's Good to Be an Englishman in 1910 and all that sort of stuff.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_03: And he says, Um, tradition, discipline, and rules must be the tools.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_03: Without them, disorder, chaos, anarchy.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_03: In short, you have a ghastly mess.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_03: And so his thing is like, no, we need the order, we've got to have this structure.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_03: And then, oh no, who should come in and demolish this patriarchy is someone else, Mary Poppins, who's gonna bring her own brother.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: That's quite a strict educationalist.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's quite a strict educationalist, but she's going to allow this much more kind of um experiential jumping pavement picture consorting with racehorse persons.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, she's gonna let this dubious chimney sweep in on the children.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_03: And if you do that, then the children can grow, they can get more self-esteem, and they can they can understand their value and dignity and all this stuff.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, the right and left is never gonna solve that problem.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's not a political problem, it's a it's a human problem, it's a theological issue.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_06: I think I think every caricature of original sin is basically framing it in terms of an Adam and Moses story rather than an Adam and Christ story.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_06: Um so Adam and Christ is is the kind of the framework in which to think about original sin.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_06: So in Romans chapter five, um we've got death through Adam, life through Christ, and um we'll just jump in at sort of verse 17.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_06: Um If by the trespass of the one man Adam death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ?
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_06: Consequently, just as just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also righteousness, one one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_06: For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_06: And again, it's that that whole, you know, as in Adam all die, so in Christ will all be made alive.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_06: And it's it's that sense of um corporate identity in your champion, in your representative.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_06: And the original sin part of it is the Adam story, and that is to look at the story of Adam and to see he is humanity, which is what his name means.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_06: You know, literally Genesis 3 is there's this guy called humanity.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_06: Or guy.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_06: He's a guy called.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_06: There's this guy called Guy, and he's uh he's a royal guy, he's king guy, and he's in charge of everything, and like he screws it all up, and everything's gone wrong ever since.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_06: And like, how are you meant to read that story?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_06: Well, that's you, yeah.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_06: That's you, yeah, you're moron.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_06: Like, that's that's how you're meant to it's your backstory.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_03: This is your origin story for why you are who you are, yeah.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_03: Is the the Adam story, yeah.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: The story of disobedience.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_06: And and sometimes I take people through, like the six S's, so you know he's suspicious of God, you know.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_06: You know, did God really say you can't eat from any tree?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_06: And suddenly he's like, Oh, yeah, maybe God's a miser, and and then he's selfish, he grasps, and then he's um enslaved um because he really wants that thing, and his eyes will be open when he gets that thing, and and then because he's fallen, he's self-justifying, and you know, he blames the woman and everything, and and then the screw-ups and the separation.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_06: And at every point, you're just like, Are you suspicious of God?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_06: Can you relate?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, maybe we're related, you know?
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_06: Like, is there are you ever self-justifying?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, ever, ever, ever once, you know, yeah.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_06: And and the and the big issue with Adam is like the whole you set up the whole story, he's like king of the world, and he can go anywhere and do anything.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_06: And then literally the story is written so that like it looks like by the end of the day, he's gone to the self-destruct button.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, and he's gone, eh eh eh.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_03: You think, what a moron, and then you think, ah, but for that story, that the reason that has such explanatory power, not just because obviously it is true, but it it says that we are the same.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_03: When you look at another human being, you're looking at the same as you.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: And when you believe in original sin, you look at a child and you say, You are a sinner at who is you know being run by your your sinfulness.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, and then you go, and that's me.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_03: And that's so we're the same.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: We are we have a human race.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_03: There is a human race, one human race.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_03: You want a one human race, they all have to be sinners.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_03: If they're not all going to be sinners, you haven't got one human race, you've got multiple.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's us and them immediately.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_06: Right?
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_06: And Stephen Pinker wrote a book called The Blank Slate, in which he challenged this idea that starts with Rousseau that man is born free, but is everywhere in chains.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_06: And this idea that we are just blank slates, we're born neutral or we're born pure.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_06: And we just need to release the genius within, and and and out of out all the glory will come.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_06: And you know, and of course, you then just just watch a toddler and see see what kind of mixture that they they really are.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_06: But but that that is that notion, but Stephen Pinker was kind of overturning that and saying, Well, look, the best of social science and psychology will tell you that that we are endemically stupid and sinful and selfish, and it's a human universal, and which is interesting because you would have thought that we would have bred it out of ourselves by now.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_06: But no, apparently we haven't bred it out of ourselves, it's baked into the human condition.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_06: And I think a lot of a lot of what has been dubbed sort of the intellectual dark web, um, people have been putting their finger on the fact that there are there are people who are resisting the notion that we are blank slates, and they are saying we have a nature.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_06: And what what might unite people who are as desperate as a Sam Harris and a Jordan Peterson would be that actually there is a recognition that there is a nature to us that is inescapable.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_06: We can't make it up as we go along, we can't self-identify as whatever we like.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_06: There are strictures, there are there are realities that we're gonna bump up against, and and and therefore we're not these blank slates.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_06: And Catherine Burble saying is is in that same tradition, I think, and just saying, well, look, you you cannot assume that children left to their own devices will fly like butterflies.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_06: Um there's a reality to us.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, well, well, hello again.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: How are we doing?
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: What are you thinking of this episode so far?
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: Do you agree?
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: Do you disagree?
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: Feel free to send any comments and suggestions to info at speaklife.org.uk.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: By the way, these shows go out live on our YouTube channel, youtube.com forward slash speaklifemedia, Mondays at 8 pm.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: So why not join us next week?
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: You can put your questions and comments in the chat, and as you've heard so far, Glenn and Nate will engage with them on air.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get stuck into part two of this episode, and I will catch you on the other side.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_06: And I I think one one thing that Catherine Burbert seemed might um I don't I'm not sure if she's seen this.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_06: Um you've seen this, haven't you?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_06: The the John Lewis commercial.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_03: About home insurance.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_06: A child left to his own devices.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_06: Um, what's that gonna what's that gonna look like?
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_06: Are we gonna show it?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_06: Should we should we look should we see this?
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_06: It's only a minute.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah um this is this is what it looks like when you believe in Rousseau's vision of humanity.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_06: Let life happen.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_06: Um beautiful expression of what Rousseau would say.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_06: You know, man is born free, but every day he's in chains.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, just unshackle that poor youth and and let him be the brat.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_03: And John Lewis saying, This we believe that children are children and they're going to make a mess.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_03: And so we're gonna let all that happen, and we'll foot the bill for the repairs that need to happen to your to your home.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_03: Now there's a level at which you want to go, yeah, children do make a mess.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_03: They're very clumsy, and often they do all sorts of things, and you sort of go, Oh, you know, we've got to sort of tidy this up and things.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_03: But what is portrayed in that in that advert is the idea that uh this child can act with absolute abandon to anyone else's concerns or issues or anything like that, and that they should be allowed to just destroy property, just just go around and sing along to Fleet Wamac and you know yeah.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I I feel like when I first saw it, I thought if if you were part of the trans community, you should be really offended by the idea that because you're expressing your identity, therefore you couldn't be possibly expected to care about anyone else you live with and you know making a mess and smearing walls and all sorts of stuff.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_06: My champion is that Bratt?
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_06: No, thanks.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_03: No, you wouldn't know that you'd be insulted by that.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so yeah, it's um it's it's terrible, but but weirdly, that is the spirit of the age that John Lewis in the irony, I think their advertising agency they use for that is called Adam and Eve.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_06: Adam and Eve, yeah, yeah.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_03: And they're thinking, right, what increases our profit margins?
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, they've led the way in advertising, right?
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_03: What we we've responded to their Christmas adverts for over a decade now because they're so good and they they understand what how people work, and they understand from that advert that what people want is expressive individualism that pays no attention to others because to put any restraint on me would be cruelty.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_07: Right.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_03: Because you you would probably hurt my self-esteem.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_07: Right, yes.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_03: And that's the only thing that really matters is how I feel about myself.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_06: And I think this this is tapping into some of the rage that's been online about original city.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_06: Is the expressive individualism and the sort of the big ego trip and the boosterism, you know?
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_03: Which was the great irony.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_03: So big ego trip, a book by Glenn Harrison, in which he talks about the self-esteem movement and then the idea that self-esteem had to be measured and then not just measured but boosted with this kind of very intentional um educational approach.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_03: And what did it do?
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_03: It produced children who had lower self-esteem.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, because they were introspective and they constantly sort of needed more and more affirmation just to be able to get on with it.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_07: Right.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_03: So I mean, brilliant book.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_03: If you know people have not read it, I would absolutely recommend it.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_06: It's it's brilliant, and and he he points to the fact that we in the West are the only civilization that there's ever been on the face of the planet that has has looked at problems like drug abuse or criminality and said, you know what the problem is, they don't love themselves enough.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_06: Right?
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah, you know, yeah like no, I mean, no no other culture would ever think that.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_06: You know, and you know, it's and we think that for distinctive Christian reasons, right?
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_06: You know, we we we are ping ponging back and forth between law and grace in the West because that's that's Christianity, right?
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_06: Um but we we kind of we ping pong between law and grace as as though it's sort of carrot and stick.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, as opposed to a journey that you go through where you in the law recognize that I am a total sinner and must be resurrected.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_06: I don't just need I don't I don't just need a a little bit of a booster, you know, I need resurrection from the dead.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_06: I need to go through the journey of law and grace.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_06: But what we do is we kind of line up on these different issues, and some people are more traditionalist and harsher, and some people are more, hey, just chill, come on, come on, you know, which is our modern form of grace.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_06: And and and it doesn't really work.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_06: It's it's kind of um and and and I think one of one of the issues here is getting back to the Adam and Moses thing, um, is that we we see where it leads, you know, that brat, yeah, and we think, okay, what he needs is simply discipline.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_06: And so we come along with Moses.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_06: And what does Moses have?
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_06: He's got 613 laws that will that will command you and train you and and grow you up.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_06: Um, but that's not Christianity.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_06: Christianity is not um you're born with a sin problem, and here are 613 commandments, see how you go.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_06: It's you're born in sin, you're born a sinner, yeah, and here's the savior for free.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_06: And that's just such a different thing.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_06: You know, the Adam and Christ framing of things turns original sin from a doctrine that probably should be rejected if it's Adam and Moses.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_06: If it's just Adam and Moses, you're like, yikes, that is pretty.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_06: But if it's Adam and Christ, then okay, I'm, you know, Jesus said it's not the healthy you need a doctor, it's the sick.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_06: I've not come to call the righteous but sinners.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_06: At that point, I'm going, hooray, well, I got that.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_06: That's the one thing I've got.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_06: I got sin.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_03: I was born with that.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_03: I can bring that to the table.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_06: You know?
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_06: Original sin enfranchises the world, you know, in that in that sense.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_06: But um should we should we have a look at um have we seen Catherine?
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_06: We haven't seen Catherine yet, have we?
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_03: No, the the interview you did with her last earlier in the age.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, should we hear her in her own words?
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_06: In her own words.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_06: Um so yeah, last she does quote your words.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_06: Oh, that's true.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_06: So this is gonna be I think it all traces back to me.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_03: I think you kicked this up.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_06: Original Glenn led to original sin.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_06: So uh this is part of the reset series, and it's a brilliant.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_06: Um, she just does a great job um in this this um interview that's part of the reset series that we did last year.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_06: And uh we talk about education, and we talk about this um uh this really battle of ideas about in education.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_06: What what are human beings really like?
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_06: And I mentioned the character of Rousseau, and then she gets into the issue of um original sin.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_06: So let's have a look at her saying that.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_06: Here here are here are five quotes about human nature and education.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_06: Um and uh let's see if you can guess who said it and then get your response uh from it.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_06: So here's here's the first one.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_06: Uh man is born free, but is everywhere in chains.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_06: Uh who who said that first?
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think it was Rousseau.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_06: It was.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_06: It was Jean-Jacques Rousseau, in indeed.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_06: Um and and that that sort of doctrine of the human person that we are kind of free spirits, um that uh and therefore that it's the systems that need to be dismantled to release the the the true spirit of the human individual.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_06: Um how do you how do you respond to that?
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, um I mean before we came on, you mentioned original sin, and um I do think that that is uh probably the decide the biggest difference uh between how we think here and perhaps how some other schools, because there are other schools who would think like us, uh, think, which is that if you believe that um children are just naturally good inside, and then all you need to do is release the goodness by freeing them up.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: So not giving them rules, not teaching them right from wrong, not expecting homework or whatever it is, that they it will just happen naturally because they are they are good inside, then that's how you'll do things.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: You'll be more of a progressive.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: If, on the other hand, you believe in original sin, meaning that man is flawed and that we need to teach man, a child, the difference between right and wrong, otherwise they just won't know it, and that we need to do more than just teach it to them.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_02: We need to give them a structure around them to support them in doing the right thing so that eventually it becomes a habit and it just becomes part of who they are, and that without that structure around them pushing them on, that they won't become a good person, that they will become bad people because the original sin will just take over and the flawed nature of man will not be contained, as it were, and and will not be uh developed and shaped in so that the child can be somebody, a good human being.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you see, traditionalists believe that.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so traditionalists know that without that kind of structure when they're young, they will turn out to be uh disappointing adults, essentially.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: And when I say disappointing, people who will commit crimes, who will do bad things, who won't know the difference between right and wrong.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_06: Or perhaps, yeah, or perhaps people who are told that their job, even educators might tell them, their their job is to disrupt the systems out there, um, and and to to follow their own spirits in in disrupt disrupting the cultures out there because it's the c it's the culture that's going to oppress them.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_06: So this I think I think Catherine's perspective on this is very much the the secular um fruit of the doctrine of original sin.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_06: Um so here we are in a culture that's been so um influenced by Christianity that of course we're going to think these sorts of thoughts about children and about education.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_06: Um and so that you know, so so that is one aspect of of the original sin discussion.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_06: But I think we do want to get down into the the theology of things.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, I mean I think well there's there's obviously the the debate the you know Pelagius versus Augustine.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh tell us tell me more.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_03: Pelagius uh Welsh was Welsh and I don't think had any children.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_03: That's the joke, isn't it?
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_03: So his argument was that man was sort of able to choose choose good and um yeah, choose life.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_06: Yes choose uh Augustine who was a father believed in original sin.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: Who had a child uh was much more of a under understood the doctrine of original sin and understood man's plight and the human condition of being helpless in the face of sin.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, even our our best works will be um will be sinful.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_06: Um Christoph Keating says, was Pelagius really a Pelagian though?
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_06: Ooh, it's like one of those was Calvin a Calvinist thing, you know, was Pelagius really a Pelagian?
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_06: But um He certain he certainly was a moralist and he certainly looked at the church and he thought, you know, we need to do better here.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_06: And our connection to Adam was for him an exemplary connection.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_06: Adam did all those things, and then I copy him.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_06: And then what's fascinating is that Augustine picks up on that and says, Yeah, however you diagnose the problem, that's what's going to be your gospel solution.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, which is a very good point.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_06: So if you if you think your problem is you copy Adam too much, you will think that your solution is you need to copy Jesus more.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_03: What would Jesus do?
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_03: What would Jesus do?
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_06: And away you go.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_06: And that would again be an Adam and Moses kind of framing of things.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_06: But I find it, I find it very interesting that Pelagius was the moralist, and Augustine brings the sweetness of grace through this doctrine of original sin first.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_06: And so it's been interesting with with Catherine Burbel Singh and people like, oh, it's the she's so strict, and she's the moralist.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_06: But no, actually, his historically, if you want to avoid the dangers of moralism, um, then original sin is actually the way, you know, we're we are born helpless, but expect it.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah, yeah.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_06: And expect that there's a grace that's greater than it, you know, to meet it.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_03: And and when you you're not making excuses for a child when you say I'm not gonna expect perfect behaviour from you.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_03: That's not making an excuse and say excusing bad behavior.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's helping to account for bad behaviour and saying given your nature, that you're going to need particular help in this way.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the things that that's gonna involve is rules and punishments and and following through and and saying no and all that sort of stuff, which is what Catherine Bobelson gets called up for so much.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_03: Because how could you say no?
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_03: How could you, you know, how could you give a child a detention, you know?
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_03: Like this is like well, yeah, um that you will do that when you are expecting it.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_03: Hey Nate, do you want to play a game?
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_03: I would love to play a game.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_03: Should we play a game?
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_03: Does it involve a pun based upon a comic book or a cartoon about a small boy and his toy tiger?
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_06: I think it might do.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_06: I think it might do.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_06: We've we've had a number of games here on the Speakeasy.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_06: We've had uh Guess the Testimony or Guestimonies, we've had Pin the Blame on the Tragedy, and now Jack.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_06: What have we got?
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, the uh yeah, and of course music uh it's a work in progress, but uh yeah, is the sound coming in okay?
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_04: Does that sound alright?
• 47:26
  unknown: Don't move it too much, yeah.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_04: Don't move it too much.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_04: Got it.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_04: So um yeah, the name of the game is not the Bill Watterson run American newspaper comic from 1985 to 1995, it is Calvin or Hobbes.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_04: Calvin Or Hobbs or Rousseau or somebody else.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_04: Because what the objective is is to match the source, uh to match a quote to the the source of the quote, and we'll be looking at different theologians and philosophers in order to do so.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_04: Um the Calvin and the Hobbes that you are referring to in your wordplay are the namesake of the newspaper comic characters.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_04: John Calvin, uh the French theologian and pastor who lived in the 16th century, founded Calvinism and emphasized the authority of scripture, uh, and Thomas Hobbes, a century later, who was an English philosopher, scientist, and historian who asserted that security was more important than liberty, and that there should be a sovereign power with absolute authority.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_04: Both men believed people to be naturally inclined to do evil, that our base nature is self-serving.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, but we will also be taking quotes from Jean-Jacques Rousseau, who was mentioned earlier, uh, a century after Hobbes, 18th century, uh Genovan philosopher, writer, and composer held the principle of a social contract and general will of society democratically deciding the course of authority.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_04: It would be an oversimplification to say that Rousseau was an optimist and Calvin and Hobbes were both pessimists, but uh nonetheless, each of them have a different perspective on human nature, and we're just going to be trying to identify who said what.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_04: The main difference between Calvin and Hobbes and their different brands of pessimism, if you want to call it that, is that Calvin believed that the solution to uh the difficulties of human nature is the divine, whereas Hobbes believed that it was humanistic effort.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_04: So if you think you can guess who said what, I will be keeping score this time.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_06: So yes, Nathan Dig Digital Gnosis has uh pointed out that Hobbes was a Calvinist.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, he was of sorts.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_06: But um yes.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_06: Let's let's play the game.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_03: And play at home, play online.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_03: You should join in.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I want I want those that that comment thread to be lit.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, we want to see those fingers.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_04: So hopefully those enjoying at home can watch and uh take part as well.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_04: I will be naming the quotes A to B for each round.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_04: And uh to be clear, yes, Calvin, Hobbes, and Rousseau will be listed as well as a fourth quote that will come from a different source entirely, just some other philosopher.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_04: So to give you an example, Calvin said, true wisdom consists of two things knowledge of God and knowledge of self.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_04: Boom.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_04: Hobbes said, It is not wisdom but authority that makes a law.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_04: Rousseau said, What wisdom can you find that is greater than kindness?
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_04: And Socrates said, the only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_04: Nice.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_04: So there's some examples.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_04: And uh to get started, uh, first round, quote A, to prefer evil to good is not in human nature, and when a man is compelled to choose one of two evils, no one will choose the greater when he might have the less.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_04: Quote B, man's nature, so to speak, is a perpetual factory of idols.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_04: Quote C, Virtue is a state of war, and to live in it we always have to combat with ourselves.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_04: And quote, D, the condition of man is a condition of war of everyone against everyone.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_06: So I think I've got B.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_06: I think I've got B and D.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_06: What are people?
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_06: Kim Warren has said she's ready.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_06: What does she think?
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_06: Um So we both think we've got B.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_06: Can you read out B for us again?
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_03: B again.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_04: Man's nature, so to speak, is a perpetual factory of idols.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_03: Calvin.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_04: Calvin.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_03: We're going Calvin on the factory of idols.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_03: Forge of idols.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_03: Uh he would have also said it with a French accent as well, but we won't insist on that.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_05: Uh that's correct.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_03: Excellent.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so we've got Hobbes, Rousseau, and AN other.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_05: To fit in.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_04: Can you can you have D again for us, please?
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_04: D was the condition of man is a condition of war of everyone against everyone.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_04: All against all.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_04: It's Squid Game.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_06: Basically.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_03: Netflix, yeah.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_06: Um 17th century squid game.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_06: In other words, I'm gonna say Hobbs.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_03: You're going Hobbes for D.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, war of all against all.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_03: Go with gimme A again.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_04: A is to prefer evil to good is not in human nature, and when a man is compelled to choose one of two evils, no one will choose the greater when he might have the less.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, that I mean that that's that's a typical kind of that's like a Plato or a Socrates.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's a choosy.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_06: It's you know Yeah.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_06: It it is of the nature of the case, isn't it?
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_06: That you you cannot make yourself love something that's unlovely.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_06: You know.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, okay.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_06: The will is drawn towards that which is beautiful, good, and true.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_06: I'm gonna say it this could be A and other, but I'd I'd say Socrates or Plato.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_04: Um you on that side as well?
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_03: I will go, I'll say Aristotle.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_03: Just to put someone else's name.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_04: You don't need to name the source of the other quote, to be clear, as long as you identify it as not being happening.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and you are correct, that was indeed Plato.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_03: Come on.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_03: Very good.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_03: So you're still saying D's Hobbs.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_06: Have you gone, have you said D?
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_06: Have you gone have you planted?
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_06: The condition of many.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then that C, give us C again, just so I can.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_04: Virtue is a state of war, and to live in it, we always have to combat with ourselves.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, would Russo have said something like that?
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_06: War against ourselves by a process of elimination.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yeah, I suppose he would.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_03: So I'd go Russo C, I will also, and and D for Hobbes.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, you the same name, uh Glenn.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yep.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yep.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_04: You are correct.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_04: Uh C Virtue as a state of war was Russo, and uh Everyone against Everyone was Hobbes.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_04: Well done.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_03: Woohoo! Well, well done, Jack, for that.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_08: Yes, thank you.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_08: Thank you.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_03: Can we can we have the music as well?
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_03: Is that gone?
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_04: The music is gone, but it's gonna be end with the theme song.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_04: Uh it's not much of a theme song, but I I Yes.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_05: There you go.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_05: Uh yes.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_06: Nathan said, uh, because you're straw man Brusso, you can't recognise his quote.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_06: Winky face.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_06: Uh, see.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_06: Okay.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_06: Brusso is more sophisticated than we than we've uh given him credit for.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, we we've there's too few too many scarecrows on this show already.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_03: What's another one?
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_06: What's an uh only had a brain?
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_06: So give us some give us some good news about all this.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_06: Because we've we've been uh as is the nature of the case, if you're thinking about original sin, you think about Adam, but that's a bit of a downer.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_06: Quite you know, yeah the original downer.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the the the original sin um is met by um outrageous goodness.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_07: Yes.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_03: I mean that's the that you know, to go back to Romans 5, and you know, for as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_03: And so if history is the st the story of two men, one was Adam and his fall, in which we all find ourselves and we're all outside the God, and because of his of his sin, and we perpetuate that through our own lives, and in need of mercy, in need of grace, we find ourselves sick, and here comes the great doctor, and the the great physician of the soul, the great you know, one who sacrifices himself in the place of Adam, um and whose obedience in the garden is the thing that you know solves Adam's disobedience.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_03: So um yeah, just uh just at the right time, 5-6 um when we were yet without Romans 5-6, okay.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_03: Romans 5-6, when we were yet without strength in due time, Christ died for the ungodly, or just at the right time when we were powerless, Christ died for us.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_03: And that's the that's the grace that transforms lives.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's the thing that that radically changes your approach to other people, yeah, yeah.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_03: Is the fact that God has dealt mercifully and graciously with you, giving you what you do not deserve.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, yeah.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_03: And therefore, you you pay that you can pay that forward to others.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_03: And change the world.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_03: Come on, let's do that.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's better.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_06: It's like so like the early church, so so Irenaeus was like totally going on about Adam and Christ the whole the whole time.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_06: And it's and he was always doing the parallels between, well, Christ comes and as you say, in a garden, he kind of is obedient, he goes to a tree, and he's obedient rather than being disobedient.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_06: He brings life instead of death, and um, and there's all sorts of beautiful aspects of Christ, the second Adam, recapitulating the life of the first Adam, taking the very substance of the of the first Adam.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_06: But he's got this this really mind-twisting stuff about the creation of Adam, and he sort of says, Because the Savior, Christ, the eternal son of God, was already in existence, then the one who was to be saved had to come into existence.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_06: And so Christ made Adam.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_06: And he talks about um, he doesn't quite use the um illustration of pencil sketch and oil painting, but other people have done it, but have done it since then.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_06: You know, Adam the pencil sketch intentionally created such that Jesus would step into that role and in that place, you know, Adam has dominion over the world, so Christ sets into the cockpit, presses home on the GPS, you know, to to take humanity back to where we back to where we belong.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_03: And it's that sense of like being taken by the scruff of our necks in Adam dead, raised up by Christ and seated at the right hand of the Father, and and a gospel that's just you copy Adam, you really should copy Jesus, and you it's just like and the origin of the original sin thing where it says, um yeah, you're bad.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_03: You're not that bad.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_03: We think you people instinctively think, oh, that must be good, right?
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_03: That must be a better thing, because it's it's good for your self-esteem, how you feel about yourself.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you're bad, but there's loads of good about you, you know, on balance, you're probably a better person than you are a bad person.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_03: And you think, no, that's not that's not transformative.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_03: What's transformative is is you are in sin, you are a sinner, and yet.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, and yet Christ came to die for you.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_03: And that's the thing that that that changes lives.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's changed my life and it, you know, it's changed yours, and every you know, at speak life, that's what you want to do, is yeah, it's being given far better than what you deserve.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_06: That that is what changes people.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_06: And and and again, like if you are in the position of being convicted about your committed sin, you know, do you want to live in the world in which God has a pair of binoculars and a clipboard and a pencil and he's he's making a list and checking it twice?
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_06: Or do you want to live in the world in which there is abundantly more given to you than you ever deserve?
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_06: And and original sin is that kind of world.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_06: The world of original sin is not the world in which God has binoculars waiting to spot whether you might make a mistake.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_06: He knows, like he's kind of factored that in.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_06: Um, and you know, one thing I said on on Twitter is is I'm I'm always talking about sort of Anne Forbes, my my ancestor, my great great, great, great, great, great-great-grandmother, who stole ten yards of printed cotton from a London market in 1787, shipped out to Australia on the first fleet, and in a sense, I was carried with her, you know.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_06: One woman, one exile.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_06: I'm Australian because of someone else, you know.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_06: And the Adam and Moses story would be okay, born in Australia, I now need to scrimp and save and earn and get my get myself back to the mother country.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_06: Well, that's that's bad news.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_06: What if the king exiles Ann Forbes and then says, I'm gonna emigrate and I'm gonna make Australia my royal domain, yeah, and then I'm born into the place where the king is, and it's precisely where the king will meet me.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_06: And if I really don't like the king, then I can run off to the desert, maybe.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, you but original sin is basically Christ says to Adam, I'm kicking you out, but don't worry, I'm coming with you.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_06: So that the whole human race will get going east of Eden precisely where Christ will meet us.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_06: So that the only thing you need in order to be saved is your sin.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, you're born with that.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_06: The only thing that you know that qualifies you from the for the doctor is your sickness.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_06: Well, you're born with that.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_03: Hooray.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_06: You know, you've already got it.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's interesting you mentioned about Anne Forbes and you, you know.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_03: She goes, and therefore those who are descended from her also go.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_03: And on this thing of Adam, you know, as our forefather, as our great kind of the father who, you know, it reminds me of the there's a a great little bit in Hebrews when it's talking about uh Abraham meeting Melchizedek.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, we don't have time to go into Melchizedek and Abraham and everything.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_03: But there's this brilliant thing about Levi as the son of Jacob, who is obviously the son of um Isaac, who was the son of Abraham, right?
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_03: And so this idea about priests and all this sort of thing and offering tithes and all this sort of stuff, it's all in there.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_03: But uh what's great it's is Hebrews 8, uh sorry, Hebrews 7, verse 10, for when he, meaning Levi, when he was yet in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_03: So that's how Levi pays the tenth, right?
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_03: Because he was in the loins, and you think that's a weird sort of thought.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_03: But it's like the kind of nesting Russian dolls.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes, yes.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_03: Who was he?
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_03: He was in the loins, so he therefore offered.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_03: And that's the way in which we think about Adam as the original sinner, yeah, and us as his his you know, his progeny.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, even Augustine has that because he says we were all in the one man Adam when we all were the one man Adam.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_06: Like, come on, that's yeah, and but you know, so whatever, whatever you think about that, it's a very realistic view of the human person.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_06: Like, obviously, genetically, I was in my parents.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_03: But there's this thing about a baby girl is already has all the eggs.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe I'm making this, I'm not adult.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know what you're talking about.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_03: Do not like you have like within them, they already have all of the I don't know what it what how you describe it, the the biological material that will provide the eggs for any subsequent children that they have, yeah, is already in them.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_03: And so you think, well, that's yeah, already there.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_03: So so a a mother pregnant with a with a daughter essentially already has the eggs of her grandchildren within her own body at that sort of point easily.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_03: This is this is but it's very connected biologically, but we don't think about it theologically in the same way.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_06: But that and this is my point about like if you if you have a blank slate kind of view of the human person, um, it it just it's just far more mythological than a belief in the Garden of Eden and a talking snake.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_06: Because you believe that, yeah, biologically, all that is true.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_06: Like everything that you've just said is undeniably true.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_06: And biologically, if you map that woman's genome, yeah, you'll discover all sorts of deletions and all sorts of ticking time bombs health-wise in that person.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_06: And and in the child that she's carrying, there'll be all sorts of ticking time bombs health-wise.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_06: Why would there not be ticking time time bombs morally?
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_06: And spiritually.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_06: It's the idea that, oh no, physically, we're incredibly dependent and malformed and perishing, but spiritually, we're pure, we're pristine.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_06: Like that is the mythological view.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_06: That is far more the fairy tale view than the Christian view, which is which is the holistic view that I am just as morally and spiritually dependent and deformed as I am physically.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_06: And I am deformed, and I am dependent, you know.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_06: And you know, Christopher Hitchens has the you know, this wonderful kind of rant against original sin.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_06: You can find it online where he says it's the pernicious doctrine that you're born sick and commanded to be healthy.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_06: Um, and and you just think, well, you know what?
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_06: We are born sick.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, good one.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_06: We are born mortal.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_06: We are born map my genome.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_06: I don't want to map my genome because I know like I know I'm gonna discover whatever whatever nonsense, you know, yeah, disease that's gonna, you know, strike me when I'm 50.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_06: But why would that not be true spiritually?
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_06: Why would that not be true morally?
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_06: Of course it would be true morally.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_06: It's it's the more much more holistic doctrine.
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, and the thing the the thing that's really funny is that over a long enough time period, like where where did you come from?
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_03: Well, if we had a camera on you for the your whole life, we would see exactly where you came from, which was your mum.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_03: And we would see, you know, you can trace that far enough back, and you can just you see where the people come from.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_03: This is where we come from.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, we come from our our ancestors.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_03: We come from those who went before us where the genealogies in the Bible are not.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_03: A complete waste of time, as so many people think.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_08: Yep.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_08: Yep.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_03: Because they're tracing the family tree.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_03: They're telling you the story of where we came from.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_06: Yep.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_06: Yep.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_06: So uh Christoph, he's saying, don't make a biological argument for Augustinian guilt inheritance.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_06: Come on.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_06: Well, Hebrews 5, Christoph.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_06: Hebrews 5.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 1:06:21
  unknown: Bye.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_03: Is it getting hot in those in those comments?
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_06: Is it is it?
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, it's it's a little no, it's it's good.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_06: It's uh we're we're getting lots of good stuff uh happening in the top chat.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_06: And just to round off that thought and and leave us with some good news.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_06: If the pernicious doctrine is that we're born sick and commanded to be healthy, that's the Adam and Moses thing, okay?
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_06: The the true Adam and Christ thing is we're born sick and we're offered the doctor, free at the point of access.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_06: Hallelujah.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_06: And the one, you know, the one thing that qualifies you for the doctor is the sin that you're born with.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_06: So, you know, it's it's the news that enfranchises the world.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, it's it's actually good news.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_06: So, you know, there's been all sorts of uh uh spicy stuff happening online for the last week.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_06: Got into the papers, all that kind of stuff.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_06: It started a conversation.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_06: Hopefully, hopefully, people can get realistic about what we are like, yeah, and then maybe start to look up to what God might be like.
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_06: I don't know.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_06: There's there's that Calvin thing that the duplex cognitio, the twofold knowledge, knowledge of ourselves, knowledge of God, maybe like that.
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_06: But uh anyway.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_03: I think that probably wraps us up.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_03: That wraps us up for speak easy on hello, hello, hello, hello, hello day.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's the all Halloween Tuesday.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um and we hope to see you again uh next week.
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_03: You know the exciting thing about next week.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_03: What's happening?
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_06: Paul Feasy.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_06: Paul the Feasy, the Feasinator is coming.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_06: So uh if you don't know, he's been off for the last three and a bit months.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_06: So his daughter, Libby, has been incredibly ill and um miraculously pulled through.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_06: Um, and they still uh are dealing with all sorts of long long-term health issues for Libby.
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_06: But we praise God for all that um they've been through and all that they've been carried through.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_06: But Paul, God willing, uh will be with us next Monday.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_06: So that'll be that'll be awesome to have Paul Feasy back.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_06: And uh Digital Gnosis says he's ready for the metaverse to upload him.
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_03: So well, that will be lovely.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_06: You gotta have some hope forward to that.
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_03: Taken into the metaverse.
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, Mark Zuckerberg, beam me up, yeah.
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_06: You won't you wouldn't get Allegri writing, you know, such a such a beautiful piece about oh Mark Zuckerberg.
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's well, there's there's a the job for someone in the next week before the next Speakeasy to write um a parody of Miserary May Day or Spy Allegri based upon Mark Zuckerberg and his ever-expanding empire of digital dominion.
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's got comedy legs.
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_06: Go to it, guys.
• 1:09:15
  SPEAKER_06: Thanks for joining us on the Speakeasy Bye-bye.
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_00: That is the end of the show.
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for listening.
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_00: Once again, feel free to send any comments and suggestions to info at speaklife.org.uk.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_00: Do subscribe to the Speak Life podcast so you don't miss out on our upcoming episodes.
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I will see you next time.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_00: God bless and goodbye.