Latest / Beyond Labels Premium / Episode #133: GMO Purple Tomato: The Trojan Horse of GMOs?

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Episode #133: GMO Purple Tomato: The Trojan Horse of GMOs? · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: This is the big problem, right?
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why aren't they still why aren't they lobbying against processed foods instead of trying to change a food, like changing the genes of a food, um in and trying to get us kind of kind of trying to sneak it in to the diet, right?
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they would shut down food processing companies, or they would lobby to stop giving preferential treatment to those large corporations that even the CDC says are hurting our health, right?
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: And instead help the small farmer, but they're not.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: So what's the motive?
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, everybody.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to another Beyond Labels podcast with yours truly, farmer Joel Salatin, and our favorite ninja researcher, Cena McCullough.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: And today we have a we have an interesting um take, and and Cena's been going down a bunch of research here on this new genetically modified organism, Purple Tomato.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you've heard about it.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, all of these things when they launch, there's all sorts of messaging around them, uh that that's positive and and um and and quite confusing, actually.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so Cena's been um digging into it, digging into the tomato, and uh, and she's got a lot of good information to share with us.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna turn it right over to her and let her start us right off here, and we'll uh we'll plod through this for the next uh half hour or so.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Joel.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: So as Joel mentioned, I've been in deep with the research here, and I'm gonna share a lot of what I found.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we're gonna move kind of quickly.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, as always, I'm gonna put links to all the original sources in the show description so you can find them there.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so here we go.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: Articles are coming out about the new genetically modified purple tomato.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, organizations like GM Watch are saying that the purple tomato has no proof of health benefits claims and no evidence of food safety.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so the purple tomato is a big deal.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a lot of GMO products come out on the market, and we just don't cover them here on the Beyond Labels podcast because it seems like uh a dime a dozen, right?
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: This one I wanted to cover because the purple tomato is a big deal.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: It is the first genetically modified food crop that's directly marketed to home gardeners.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, last year there was a handful of small farmers that started growing and selling the tomatoes.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: But until now, genetically modified foods were generally only available to commercial producers, okay, at least in the US.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: But this is the first time that a genetically modified food crop can be grown in your own backyard, right?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: But this is only happening in the United States.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: So this new genetically modified proposition.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: That has not been a regulatory thing, that's simply been a market choice because the you know the people who develop the seeds uh know that their quickest return on investment is large, large sales, not small sales.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh correct me if I'm wrong.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm I'm trying to understand that this actually represents a shall we say a market maturation, a maturing of the market, that it is now what what we've seen in in commercial production, you know, from soybeans and corn and all that, Monsanto, blah, blah, blah.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it is now this is now becoming uh ever every man, every man sales.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: If I got that about right, yes.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that's actually one of I have just a few key points that I want to share with our listeners.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that is one of the most important key points, Joel.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like you were punchlined.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, no, that's what you would get for partnering with somebody so smart.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you are absolutely correct.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna build the case for this, but let me um piggyback what on what you're saying right now.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yes, this is a new marketing strategy for getting genetically modified foods accepted by the consumer.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's a lot of studies that are showing that consumers do not accept genetically modified foods, even though this is a conundrum, right?
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because even though most Americans at least consume genetically modified ingredients on an everyday basis, but if you point Blake ask them in a survey, they'll say that they're unsure about genetically modified foods, right?
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a different marketing strategy.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the first waves of genetically modified foods, they were predominantly touted as um, you know, apply to staple crops for like making growing easier, right?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: Higher yields, maybe resistance to pesticides, resistant to drought.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it was kind of crouched under this whole concept of we're gonna feed the world, right?
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna provide food security with these new genetically modified crops.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, and and it's easy to see why you'd want to buy into that, right?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody wants anyone to starve, right?
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: That narrative has been largely debunked, right?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: And we can talk about that another episode if people want.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and there were a few exceptions along the way.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: So in the late 1990s, for instance, we had golden rice that many people might remember.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: It was developed to have higher levels of beta-carotene, and that was to combat vitamin A deficiency.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: Now that crop never really took off.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: In 2020, there was the pink pineapple, right?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: That was created by a California-based company, Fresh Del Monte.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, that rosy flesh contained higher levels of lycopene, which is an antioxidant.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's the antioxidant that gives like peaches and some tomatoes and watermelon, their rosy hue.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: But the difference was Fresh Del Monte was the only company that could grow it, right?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: This purple tomato can be grown now by anyone in the US.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: You just buy the seeds and you can grow it.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there, so that is a huge marketing shift um in the GMO strategy away from world hunger toward individual health, right?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: They're creating these now um nutrient-dense foods, is what you can call them.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: They're calling them biofortified foods.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, this is the big question as why are they why are they pushing to that?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in order to understand that more, let me tell you a little bit about the purple tomato itself.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Then we're gonna dive into why I think this is such a critical thing for everyone to understand um in terms of what's coming down the pipeline.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: I also want to go into how in the world did this actually get passed or quote unquote approved by the government.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then as a scientist, some health concerns that I see involved with this purple tomato.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: So this is before you run, um the promises of these things have never panned out.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh GMO cotton, for example, uh, farmers bought it up the wazoo and then suddenly lost millions of dollars because the GMO cotton couldn't stand as much frost as traditionally uh bred cotton.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so it it it farmers kind of went away from it.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: It it it there was this, you know, ooh, we didn't we didn't we didn't count on that, you know, kind of thing.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: The the golden rice, um uh I certainly remember that and doing health conferences.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I was, you know, uh I remember a guy pulling out a chair next to me at a at a conference where I was speaking.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: He just looked at me and says, Why do you want three million oriental children blind?
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: I said, What?
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: He said, Why do you want all these kids blind?
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: I said, What are you talking about?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: He said, Well, you know, you're against GMOs and golden rice would allow all these kids.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: The problem is that the golden rice came uh was a solution to the problem of monocultures, that traditionally they grew all sorts of green plants, bok choy and stuff around the rice patties, and all those carotens and green material gave them all the vitamin A they ever, or vitamin uh D, vitamin A, vitamin A, that they ever needed.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: But then when they started using herbicides, uh that killed all the greens, and so they needed something else.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so the the golden rice was a way to get the vitamin A in a non-polyculture way, uh, an anti-traditional production system.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: And the fact is that you would have to eat like 10 pounds of rice a day in order to get the amount of uh of vitamin A that you would get out of just a serving of of uh traditional grown bok choy.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: So, so you know, these these things, um uh uh our our our dubious uh attitude toward these claims um it has a meritorious track record.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, people need to understand we're not we're not coming at the purple tomato like it's a it's a first offender.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we have been down this pathway and seen it.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think I think you're gonna show us we're discovering a similar pattern here that we've seen in these other things.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: You're exactly right.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and thank you for highlighting that because this is a pattern.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not like I'm just all of a sudden opposed to some genetically modified purple tomato just to be opposed to it, right?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's um what right here, what we're gonna be talking about is reductionist thinking and um lack of ability to see the unintended consequences, right?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Which which are themes that we cover in this podcast extensively.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: So you're gonna see it again, okay?
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: So so here we go.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: So so this purple tomato, it's genetically engineered, meaning it now has genes from the Snapdragon flower.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: And the purpose was to create to force the tomato to make high levels of anthocyanins.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, now anthocyanins, you probably heard about these are compounds that give blueberries and blackberries and eggplant and purple cabbage, they give it that purple color, right?
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: The anthocyanins are often called like um they're they're an antioxidant.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: And we think of them included in foods that are called superfoods.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that's because we think of antioxidants as neutralizing reactive oxygen species, right?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: Or these compounds in the body that can cause damage to cells and that have been associated with chronic and autoimmune diseases, right?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: So there's all this hype about we got to get enough antioxidants in our diet.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so they created this genetically modified tomato so that it would, it has the genes now from the snapdragon flower to be able to transcribe and translate, basically produce high levels of anthocyanins within this purple tomato.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so the scientist who actually came up with this idea is Kathy Martin.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: And she's a bio, um, a biochemist from trained at the University of Cambridge.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: And the way she created it was she started with this basic technique that was actually figured out in the 1980s.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where you can use bacteria to insert DNA into a host organism.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: So what she did was she isolated the genes for the Snapdragonflower.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you can put those genes into a bacteria, like a plasmid, and then that can actually get um that foreign genetic material can actually get into the tomato genome itself, and the tomato will then start expressing those genes.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so this does involve um it did involve um bacteria.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, in in some of the documents I'm gonna show you, there is also a potential for antibiotic resistance, right?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because of the way that they actually produce these um genetically modified crops.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it did involve taking genes from another species, right?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: A flower that is now put into a tomato.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, in other words, what I'm saying is something that would not happen in nature, right?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: You're not crossing two different types of tomatoes together like we've done now for a long time.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: You're actually taking this is not Mendel's peas.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, yes.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: We're not talking about Mendel anymore, like Gregor Mendel.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but not not only would this not happen in nature, but nature has a lot of uh bear barriers to make this not able to happen.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's right, that's right.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: So um I saw a quote from the CEO of um the company that's doing this is Norfolk and Norfolk Sciences, and the US um subsidiary is called is Norfolk Healthy Produce, right?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Norfolk Healthy Produce.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: And their CEO was quoted as saying, it really is a great example of understanding how the natural world functions and building on that to meet our needs, right?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: So how the natural world functions, which is to me, that's not this is not how the natural world world functions, right?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: A tomato is not going to be crossing with a snap dragonflower, but then it's the second part building on that to meet our needs.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: So this goes into what you were saying earlier.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: What's the motive here?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: So when he says meet our needs, right?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: The at first blush, you can think, oh, okay, so maybe that means to meet our needs if we want more um anthocyanins in our diet, right?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: But here's the thing we already have tomatoes that are not genetically modified, that have anthocyanin levels that are higher, right?
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: There's um it called an indigo family.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: And this was bred by Jim Myers.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: He's a plant breeder and professor at Oregon State University, and he did this, you know, the hybrid, right?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: You're crossing the genes from wild tomato and modern tomato varieties to produce this indigo family of tomatoes with higher anthocyanin levels.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason he did that is because so our domesticated tomatoes, generally speaking, will have anthocyanins predominantly in the stems and the leaves.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: But if you look at wild tomatoes, they'll have anthocyanins in the fruit, right?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Which exact that's exactly what this genetically modified purple tomato is touting is that, oh, the anthocyanins are not just in the skin, it goes all the way through the fruit.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Look, it's purple all the way through and through this tomato.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: But some wild tomatoes are already doing that, right?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: Naturally.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: They already do that naturally.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: And this guy, Jim Myers, um create hybridized, uh, you know, he crossed these tomato species and has already come up with tomatoes, actually, 50 cultivars of the indigo tomato that's been around for a couple of decades now.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: So you can already get these on the market without being genetically modified.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: There's also heirloom varieties or purple tomatoes that are available, like Black Zebra, Black Beauty, whatnot.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, why are they creating this genetically modified version of this purple tomato?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, one potential reason, right?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're now guessing, right?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because we're trying to understand their motives.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: One potential reason is it's patented, right?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Kathy Martin, Norfolk Plant Sciences, and their colleagues, they have patents on this, right?
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, which means there's money involved, right?
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: Always follow the money.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: Another theme of this program.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: But there's another another potential motive, and this fits into the quote from the CEO of we're gonna build on this to meet our needs.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: So as we mentioned, they have shifted their advertising.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: And if you go on to their website, I'm gonna read you a couple of the headlines.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: They promote some headlines from um different publications talking about this purple tomato.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: So here's just some of the head headlines.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: Behold the purple tomato, a new designer, super fruit.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they have um learning to love GMOs.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: This company's GMO will help feed the world by being eaten.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so some of these are um some of these I wanted to really point out because like the New York Times one, learning to love GMOs.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: That fits into what I think part of the motive is here.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: So they're saying that if you read in the documentation from this company, they're saying that people are deficient in antioxidants.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: And look, as a scientist and someone who helps people reverse chronic and autoimmune diseases, I can I actually relate to that.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: I can understand that.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you and I have talked about this, and people in our circles have talked about how our food is less nutrient-dense now, generally speaking, than it was in the past, right?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: All sorts of issues um contribute to that, uh, like the use of glyphosate that's a key later, that also, you know, can disrupt the microbiome of the plant, um, eroding the topsoil, right?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: What all kinds of contributing factors have resulted in less nutrient density in our food supply.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I can understand that, right?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: And what they're what they're saying is that we need to put these antioxidants in something like a tomato, which is um consumed at higher quantities than something like a blueberry or a blackberry, right, or a red cabbage.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: So we need to put it in something that's consumed by a large quantity of people so that we boost their antioxidant level.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like I'm saying, I I can get behind that in the sense that yes, I think it would be great for people to consume more antioxidants, right?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: But there's all these caveats to this, okay.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, for one, if they really wanted to help people, like if they really wanted to change the way people are gonna eat, then since they're already trying to control what people eat, right?
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Wouldn't you think a better way would be to get them to stop eating the processed foods?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is the big problem, right?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why aren't they still why aren't they lobbying against processed foods instead of trying to change a food, like changing the genes of a food um in and trying to get us kind of trying to sneak it in to the diet, right?
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they would shut down food processing companies or they would lobby to stop giving preferential treatment to those large corporations that even the CDC says are hurting our health, right?
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: And instead help the small farmer, but they're not.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, what's the motive?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: So the CEO of Norfolk Health Produce said said this.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: This is a quote directly from him.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: We aim to show with this product and with this company that there's a lot of benefits that can go to consumers through biotechnology, better taste, better nutrition, as prime examples.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Then he goes on to say, then it, meaning the purple tomato.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so then the purple tomato chips away at this negative perception of GMOs, and that will enable other products to get out to market that deliver really solid benefits, benefits like that could include like climate change or sustainability or health and nutrition.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: So when they say that earlier quote that we're gonna build on this product to meet our needs, I think they just showed their hand, right?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: The need is this Trojan horse to get these other GMOs on the market.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, what happens?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: What happens when you give it to backyard gardeners?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, several things happen.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, it normalizes it, right?
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: Now we can all grow it.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: It totally normalizes this whole concept of GMOs.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: Even the health conscious backyard gardeners are growing this.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: Number two, what about drift?
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: If you look, if you look at their website, and I'll link to it, it's it talks about how these can cross-pollinate, right?
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: There's like, okay, yeah, you just put it in your garden.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're not concerned about the other plants in your garden cross-pollinating, then there shouldn't be any problem.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I like to double check all the facts, as you know, right?
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Original source, double source it.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I've actually sent in an email to this company asking specific questions about does it cross, can it cross-pollinate?
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: And if it does, what would that next generation of tomato plant also produce high levels of anthocyanins, or does it get drowned out?
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: I already know the answer looking in their um data that they submitted to the FDA, which we'll cover in a second.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I did send that question to the company and they have not responded.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'll let you know when they do respond.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: But I think this is a way to normalize it.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: And also, um, it's if you if you have all these gardeners planted it, planting it, and there can be this drift, there can be cross-pollination, right?
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna pollute the supply of the tomatoes, right?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: This sounds very familiar to something else that's been happening lately, you know, the past few years in our country, right?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: So you won't have this control group anymore of the tomatoes.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: You won't be able to tell what the long-term consequences could potentially be of this newly introduced.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, people who aren't involved in uh in seed saving sometimes don't appreciate how uh the the uh the spatial requirements to segregate um varieties in order to maintain purity.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um in fact, we've just had a a really bummer here.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Teresa's saved her family has saved tomato seeds from uh from an heirloom tomato that her great-great-grandmother um saved a hundred years ago, and they've and we plant them every year, every year, every year.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, a couple of years ago, um we uh you know, Teresa and I have always done this, but we were busy, and so we kind of turn it over to some, and I'm not trying to throw apprentices under a bus, but uh anyway, we had these young people and say, hey, you know, go plant plant these here, plant these there.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, they got mixed up, and our concern is now we have lost those seeds because they cross they got too close in the garden, they were planted too close, and they got they got cross-pollinated, and so we got these um they they they don't look true.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: They don't look true to what they were, and so um, you know, this this adulteration, this, this um adulteration of the germ pool, gene pool, is uh is a real is a real deal.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so what what better way to just create this ubiquitous, ubiquitous um adulteration than to have this all out through the gardens and um and everybody's got it, it's all over the community and it's all over anybody's garden, and um, you know, you can't can't keep it out.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: And we know that that kind of drift happens, right?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: We've seen this in the past with some seeds from Monsanto, it drifted over, and you know, like uh if you wanted those seeds, you had to sign a document, right?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: That you weren't gonna like share them or whatever, or seed save them.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then remember they actually sued some farmers because of the drift that happened.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: The farmer had no control over this, and they're like, Oh, well, we see the genes here um in your crop and you don't have a license.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, they come in with a drone and a drone and an infrared uh photograph, and they can tell which ones are the GMO, and then they can take you to court and sue you for patent infringement because you've got you've got their um, you know, their seeds that you didn't buy, or you know, um their their genetic material, their intellectual property that you didn't pay for.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's uh it's and and with corn, you know, corn they found out that it it even crossed the oceans on on the jet jet stream.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's how that's how far that that's how far that pollen can go.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: So wow uh this stuff, this stuff, um you know, it's a real it's a real Pandora's box when it gets opened up.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so now just think about drift problems with, like I said, it's patented, right?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: Purple tomatoes patented, drift problems with it, with all these people putting it in the backyards, you know.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like I almost want to grow my tomatoes now, like in a greenhouse or something, try to protect them from the drift, you know.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but okay, but so anyhow, how did this actually get approved in the US?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and this is the point where um I want to try to, if I can, I want to try to share my screen because part of our goal here is to um to help people understand how we think um and not just like here, this is what we're thinking, just trust us, regurgitate what we're saying.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: We want to actually help you understand how we think about these things and and how we actually search them um to find original sources and get our information.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: So um, Joel, can you see my screen?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I sure can.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: So um for anyone who's watching, who's sorry, who's listening to the podcast, I will try to explain this verbally, but there will also be links again in the description, the show description.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: So you can um click on these and look at them for yourself.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: So right now I am on the website for Norfolk Healthy Produce, right?
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: This is the subsidiary in the US that's making the purple tomato.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: So at the top here it says Norfolk Plant Scientist has completed all steps in the regulatory process, including the voluntary FDA review.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: So this is why I wanted to show this website was because of the word voluntary.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you and I have talked about this on the on our program quite often, but I want you to see it for yourself.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so you can see what we're talking about.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: So let's start with this one.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: How does the USDA actually approve um these products?
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and I'm gonna say they actually don't approve them.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so um, Joel, can you see my this next screen?
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's okay.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: So um APHIS, right?
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: This is part of the USDA, um, issues first regulatory status review response, Norfolk Plant Sciences Purple Tomato.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and they basically down here I'm gonna highlight this.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: It says we found the plant is unlikely to pose an increased plant pest risk compared to other cultivated tomatoes and is not subject to regulation under 7 CFR Part 340.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: That means from a plant pest risk perspective, this plant may be grown safely and used in breeding in the United States.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: They go on to say that the their response, so the USDA's USDA's response that this plant does not need to be regulated, is based on information that was provided from Norfolk Plant Sciences and the USDA's familiarity with tomatoes, the knowledge of traits that alter fruit color and nutritional quality, and their understanding of these modifications.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so basically what they're saying is that it's now a non-regulated plant.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: So they just don't regulate it at all, right?
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: I like I can I'm not making this up.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm showing you this, like you can see it here with your own two eyes.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: It the the view the Norfolk plant sciences made a good enough case, the USDA, that the government, um, the USDA government part of the government does not think that this plant needs to be regged any more regulated anymore.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: So now it's deregulated.
• 29:04
  unknown: Okay.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it's so it's uh it's plant, it's plant grass.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's plant grass, generally generally regarded as safe.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yes.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: So this is the yeah, so this is the equivalent.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: This is the this is the the this is the the food equivalent or the crop equivalent, the the the production equivalent of of grass in food items.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, so this is the US, and we're gonna get into the FDA's grass next, but yes, this is the USDA.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so this is so the USDA, if you don't know, it's the United States Department of Agriculture, right?
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: So they're in charge of agriculture.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: So protecting the the you know the crops from pests and whatnot.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: So this is the approval process, the quote unquote approval process that GMOs go through in the USDA side of the government.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so you can see under here it says we did not identify any plausible pathways to increase plant pest risk compared to other cultivated tomatoes.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: So that means compared to the to non-GMO tomatoes, and issued a response letter indicating the plant is not subject to regulation.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, this is the equivalent of what the FDA does with their grass status.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so let's go to that next.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: So the USDA is not regulating this plant anymore.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: And if you click on the FDA memo, um, it's gonna bring up.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Can you see this one, Joel?
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: I just moved it over.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: The FDA's biotechnology notification.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so this is the FDA's notification.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that basically here's our summary.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it says that um Norfolk Sciences has completed a consultation with the FDA.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: And now remember again, this consultation is voluntary.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's even stated on Norfolk's website.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the consultation with this genetically engineered tomato, this document summarizes the company's conclusions and their supporting data.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it includes information from the FDA Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition that we evaluated pertaining to human food use of this potato tomato.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this is what they say.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: The FDA says, based on the safety and nutritional assessment that the company has conducted, it's our understanding that the company concludes it has not introduced into human food a new protein or other substance that would require pre-market approval as a food additive.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: And human food derived from this purple tomato is comparable to and as safe as human food from other tomato varieties.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, they're saying here the FDA evaluated data and information, and we have no further questions at this time about the safety, nutrition, and regulatory compliance of human food from this GMO potato.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: So no further questions letter.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: This is what you and I talked about in a previous podcast.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: When you receive a no further further questions letter, this means that now it's generally recognized as safe.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: So this is the grass, this is now grass.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: So this purple tomato is now has achieved grass status from the FDA.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so go back here.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: Norfolk says they have completed all steps in the regulatory process, okay, including this FDA voluntary review, which means the grass status review.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: It has been given grass status, and it means the USDA deregulation status, which it achieved.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it's approved now.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: I quote unquote approved because it's basically not regulated.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: The company stated that it's safe, and the FDA said, okay, we believe you that your own product is safe, right?
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: And the USDA said, Oh, okay, the company has shown us enough evidence that we don't think that there's a pest problem, so it's safe.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: So we're not going to regulate it.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: So at this point, the government is not regulating it and they're not monitoring it.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so it's really up to the company.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: So now um, I'm gonna stop sharing my screen just for a second.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: So there's what's happened is a lot of molecular geneticists have come out, and other scientists have come out, and they're warning about this genetically modified purple tomato.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and part of what they're warning about is that they're saying that the company has not produced sufficient evidence to say that it's safe for us to eat and that it's safe to be in the environment.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I went through, of course, did my due diligence.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: I went through the documents that the company submitted to the FDA, right?
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: So this is the evidence that the FDA used to say that there's no um concern over safety in our human food supply.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: Again, the first genetically engineered food that can be grown in your own backyard.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: So this is, I'm just gonna briefly tell you what they did because I want to move on to my concerns as a scientist.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: So the evidence that they provided is basically um they the company confirmed that the DNA was inserted into the tomato.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: The company confirmed that the DNA can be inherited, right, across generations.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: The company said that they did a compositional analysis to test the nutrient content of the ripe mature tomato compared with a regular tomato.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: So they tested things like how much protein is in it, how many vitamins are in it, how much fat is in it, and they said that they were similar with minor differences.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: Now, granted, I can't see the original data, right?
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: We're not given the original data here.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I don't know that the FDA got the original data either.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: I can't tell you that.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: I can just tell you what's in this document that the FDA produced, and there's no original data here.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, at least none that I can see.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the company also used bioinformatic analysis to see if there were any open reading frames.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like if if the open reading frames were disrupted as a result of inserting the DNA.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so basically, if there are any disruptions to the DNA sequences, uh, they're saying that if there's a disruption, that might raise concern of toxicity or an allergenicity.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so what they did was they searched the DNA that was flanking the insertion sequence.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: So on the sides of it, right?
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: And they reported that in those flanking regions, they didn't find any open reading frame interruptions.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, but what about the rest of the genome?
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: We know that these genes that they inserted into this tomato are core pathway genes, right?
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: They're all these things are interconnected.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like you have this one gene that's transcribed and translated into one protein, right?
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: We know that these like antioxidants and anthocyanins are actually now not just antioxidants, they're signaling molecules.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: They signal different pathways.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: So we don't know how these different genes are actually interacting with each other.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: This is the whole reductionist thinking that, oh, I'm just gonna insert this one gene and it's gonna make this one protein.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: And we already know mathematically that's not even possible.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: So there could be disruptions someplace else.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: And this is one of the main concerns of molecular geneticists is what about the rest of the genome?
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: You didn't look for it, right?
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, another thing the company said they did was they assessed if there were any new peptides that will, that were 30 amino acids or greater that were produced at the insertion site, right, where the foreign DNA was inserted.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: They actually did find one, what they call a putative peptide, but they said, quote, this peptide has no homology to any known allergen or protein, and there's no evidence the sequence is transcribed in the tomato.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: So they did actually already find one putative peptide just right there at the insertion site.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: And they're just dismissing it as, oh, but we don't know anything else that's actually uh similar to that sequence enough to cause an allergy.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: But to me, that doesn't show harm, right?
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: To me, that's we need to implement the precautionary principle.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: We already know sensitivities, food sensitivities and allergies are on the rise, right?
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so now we're seeing these putative peptides, proteins, being produced already.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the fact the fact that they that they can't identify a harm does not prove that no harm exists.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: And the fact that they say, oh, well, we're saying that there's no evidence that it's transcribed in the tomato, right?
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a gene there, but there's no evidence that the tomatoes actually like transcribing and translating that gene into a protein.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, this raises huge red flags, right?
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because how many for how long did we call things junk DNA?
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: And we thought this junk DNA did nothing, right?
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: And now we're realizing that no, some of that junk DNA has really important regulatory roles in our body, right?
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: So how could you possibly say that something's sitting there and because I didn't see it being transcribed in this moment, it must do nothing, right?
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's not even that's not scientific whatsoever.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's I want this to get passed.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: So we're just gonna say it didn't do anything, and the FDA said, okay, right.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: So they also did um they they did a couple of things.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna skip over some of this for time's sake.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the the most the the thing that they're promoting the most is this pilot feeding study that they did on mice.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and this was done by Kathy Martin and her colleagues, again, the people that hold the patent to this uh purple tomato.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: And basically, they fed mice that were cancer prone, they fed them the purple tomato.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: And what they said was that they lived longer.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, now several some organizations and scientists have come out, including the Cancer Research UK, they've come out and they have said things like, this study is too weak to actually support their claims that they're making.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: The sample size is too small, it was not a properly designed toxicological study that would look at various health endpoints, right?
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: They're just saying, oh yeah, these mice, they just live longer.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: So there's not even enough detail in the published paper to provide evidence of what the full range of the health effects are.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I can't, I can't tell you um if this study was done well or not because I don't have access to the raw data.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like I, and it's my I looked for it, I don't know where it is.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that we're gonna know, right?
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: This is proprietary to the company.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, so that's what they used to say that this new genetically modified purple tomato is safe for humans, right?
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: No human studies, one study on this mouse, it's a knockout mouse, right?
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then they just said, Oh, yeah, we did some sequencing stuff right around that area where we inserted it, and we don't really see problems except maybe this little one on the side, but we think that one's okay.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: And and the government's like, Yes, let's not regulate or monitor this at all.
• 41:10
  unknown: Right.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, so that's what's involved.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now, now here's my take on it.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: And this is kind of what I want to what I want to wrap up on.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: I know we're we're kind of over.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, as a scientist, I think this is fascinating.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like part of what I try to do and bring to this program is not not bring my bias into it.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: I will give you my opinion, right?
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that's my bias.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: But as a scientist, this is pretty cool that we can do these kinds of things.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I fully acknowledge these are like novel concepts.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: This this is really fascinating from that perspective.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: Now, having said that, I am adamantly opposed to genetically modifying anything, period.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: I want to eat everything the way that God intended for us to eat them.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that manipulating our food supply to accommodate our quote unquote needs is the right approach to create a healthier population, right?
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: If people wanted to be healthier, they could take the initiative and change the diet themselves.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: We don't need to genetically manipulate our animals and our plants just because it's inconvenient for us to change our own ways, right?
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: Don't punish them for something we're choosing not to do.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: So here's my thing.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: There's a whole area of science that people really aren't talking about, right?
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: And this is is it too much?
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a danger of overdosing on antioxidants?
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, in our culture, we tend to think more is better.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: And now we're starting to understand in certain areas more is not better.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, we've known this as nutritionists for a long time.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: Vitamin A plays a critical role for eyesight, as you mentioned, but high levels of vitamin A is a toxin, it's a known toxin that can lead to liver damage.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that toxicity is dose dependent, okay?
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, which plays into the role here of the purple tomato.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's dose dependent.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: How much are you gonna be getting?
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: If they process this into all kinds of things eventually that we're gonna eat, like tomato sauce, right?
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh ketchup, right?
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: Think about lasagna, everything you eat that would have to salsa, right?
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: What is the dose that you're gonna be getting?
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, along those lines, iron, right?
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: Iron is obviously critical for you know transportation of oxygen through the blood supply and whatnot.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: Too much can lead to liver disease or even death.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: Consuming too much calcium has been associated with kidney stones, weakening of the bone, interfering with heart and brain function, right?
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: This is this is one reason why um last year, if you recall, Joel, at our Beyond Label Summit, uh part of my talk was about supplements.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: And even though I used to formulate supplements.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm cautioning people that megadosing on individual nutrients can actually be harmful.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: So this is where I want to end, and then I can have you jump in.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: Just like some of these nutrients we already know are toxic to you and high levels, anthocyanins at high levels may actually also present a health risk to you.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: So there I've had a couple of examples here.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: There was a former US EPA scientist, um, Dr.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: Ray Um Sedler, and in 2022, he brought this to everyone's attention.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: He said, quote, when consumed in moderation, anti-inflammatory compounds like anthocyanins can have health benefits, but overconsumption of anthocyanids may cause kidney, liver, and thyroid hormone health effects.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they may interfere with iron absorption.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so what I'm saying is with antioxidants, a paradox actually exists.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, anti on antioxidants can benefit your health, but they can also impair your health.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: That depends on the individual person and the circumstances.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, in short, antioxidants like anthocyanins, we think of them as good for your health because they can neutralize or quelch reactive oxygen species.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: And these are things like superoxide anions, hydrogen peroxide, hydroxyl radicals.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: These are things that we think of as part of um causing damage to cells, to DNAs, uh, DNA things that initiate and can perpetuate autoimmune and chronic diseases like cardiovascular disease and cancer.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: So we tend to think of um reaction reactive oxygen species as bad, and we need antioxidants to get rid of them.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: But those reactive oxygen species, while they can do that at high levels, we now know they themselves are actually critical in fighting off disease.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: So this is the paradox.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: So reactive oxygen species are produced in certain immune cells, and they are produced for the purpose of destroying what modern science calls invading pathogenic bacteria, fungi, or yeast, right?
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: So they're there to help destroy or combat infections, for instance.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um but so if you get rid of them, right?
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you quench them, then you will impair your ability to actually fight off infections.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: A similar thing happens with chronic and autoimmune disease.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: You need a certain amount of them there in order to do things like repair tissue that's been damaged.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like we tend to think of things in this culture as black or white.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: And reactive oxygen species are not all bad, right?
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: We also know that part of what they do, as I mentioned earlier, is they're signaling molecules.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: So they activate essential biochemical pathways to help regulate gene expression, right?
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: So if you get rid of them, your immune system is not going to work the way that it was designed to work, right?
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because they are now we know they are part of this signaling pathway to let your body know, hey, there's an invader here, or hey, we have some destroyed tissue over here.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: So send in the guys to help repair this, right?
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so now you're squashing those.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: Go ahead.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, um, just to make sure everybody's clear on this, if you if you quench these with an overdose of antioxidants, that's what you're talking about.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's that's the quenching.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got these these two things going on, and in our in a healthy body, they are um they do they do different things at different times in balance.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_01: But if you if you start um override uh whatever, over in imbalancing one, then you lose the benefits of the other.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: And we have studies to show this.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: There's studies in Canada, in the US, Australia, Italy, Finland, and elsewhere that have shown that if you give really high doses of these antioxidants to people that have like cardiovascular disease or lung cancer, it actually, those megadoses of antioxidants actually promote oxidative stress instead of actually quenching it.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so hence we that's the paradox.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that more is better.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: How much is too much?
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: So now you have people like the Cochrane Library, they've calling for antioxidant supplements to be considered um medicinal products, like medical products.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: So so the science is just now starting to catch up to this, to realize that more is not better.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know as much as we thought we knew about this.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: Just like everything, Joel, that you and I talk about, there is a balance that has to be achieved.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, look to nature for that balance.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so what I mean is, yeah, if if that tomato doesn't have anthocyanins through and through it, well, it's not meant to have it through and through it, right?
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: Tomatoes are usually high in lycopene, a different type of antioxidant, right?
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: Let it be, let it do its thing, let it have its own balance in life, right?
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: Or you you can't eat something that man has created its own balance based on reductionist thinking and inability to see unintended consequence, and think that you will have then balance in your own body.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: You can't do that because we don't know enough, right?
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: There isn't this is where humility needs to come into play.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm speaking as a scientist, right?
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: We're not taught humility.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: Humility needs to come in play here because we don't know enough about even how the human body works to then go and start manipulating our food to try to upregulate one specific gene to get one specific compound that we think is going to do something great for us.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because as I've just pointed out to you, we already know in the scientific literature, that's not actually the case.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is um this is all part of that whole uh scheme of of uh food as software.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and and boy, if that's not a dangerous phrase, I don't know what it is.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: Food as software, viewing food as software for us.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh thanks, Cena, for for bringing us up to speed on us.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: We went a little long here, but I knew you were on a roll and I knew you had you had um this is this is breaking breaking stuff, especially with gardening season coming up and people getting ready to you know purchase seeds, and uh, and there'll be there'll be you know seed groups and friends you know talking over the garden fence, the yard fence.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, what are you planting?
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: What are you doing?
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: What's new this year?
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and we want our people not only to not use these, but then to also um maybe share this podcast with a friend that's because the problem is we humans, we love bright new, shiny objects.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: We love bright new shiny objects, and so novelty, goodness, gardeners and novelty have gone together like hand in glove forever.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you the uh you know the the the newest, the whatever flower gardening.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you've got a a different colored daylily, you know, I mean that's you you get an article written about you, you know, in the flower magazine.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: And and so this that there is so much um uh emotion here and human uh just human attributes that we're having to deal with.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just nutrition, it's not just science, it's not just FDA, it's it's a plethora of of human uh of human cognitive bias in just how we how we make decisions.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks for drilling down to it, honest.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you all for joining us with another Beyond Labels podcast.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_01: And we hope you'll share this with your friends, and we look forward to visiting with you next week.