Latest / Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield / England and France need more South Africans ?!

Transcript

England and France need more South Africans ?! · Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield

0:00
Everyone's going to say how poor England were in France were off the game,
0:04
but I think there's something a bit deeper happening.
0:07
I think the pressure of winning and getting the kicking game wrong,
0:10
but there is a real problem.
0:12
Yeah, you could just see this stress that Bortwick was under.
0:15
If you go back six weeks already, we're all saying France and England.
0:19
And now this week it's Ireland or Scotland.
0:22
You know, whoever gets up is going to win it. That is so good.
0:25
Yeah, they've got a nice balance in there.
0:27
A lot of South Africans in that team that make them play really well.
0:31
I thought I was patriotic, but you are next level mate.
0:35
A whole world does not revolve around South Africans playing well.
0:39
A lot more than football games.
0:41
You're getting there.
0:42
It's helping them.
0:48
Welcome back to rivals.
0:50
And so we're all picking in this England, France, to Cider.
0:54
And that didn't happen, Victor.
0:57
Yeah, what a surprise. What a weekend.
1:00
I mean, Jake, you must be over the moon for Italy.
1:07
What a win for them.
1:09
And then Scotland, I must say,
1:12
I'm a big France believe in where they are.
1:17
What a great team they are and well done to Scotland.
1:21
They came out the forwards stood up.
1:24
And I mean, that back time when they get on fire, it's just magic.
1:29
I think that everyone's going to say how poor England were in France,
1:35
off the game, but I think there's something a bit deeper happening.
1:38
I think the pressure of winning and getting the kicking game wrong, Victor,
1:43
is a real problem.
1:44
You know, I think the Italians had this great balance of kicking,
1:49
risking a bit, running a bit.
1:51
And I think Scotland were the same.
1:53
They just thought, oh, well, you know, everyone's written us off.
1:56
And that takes the pressure off a bit.
1:58
And I think there was a, you know,
2:00
I've been talking to Wayne Smith a lot about it.
2:03
You know, this kicking game and getting that wrong,
2:06
I believe is so dangerous, especially at the highest level.
2:09
Because if you kick away position, you never get into rhythm, right?
2:13
And if the opposition have enough, and the beauty about Italy,
2:17
they've got enough game breakers now.
2:19
They've got enough guys that will punish you if you're going to,
2:23
you know, make some mistakes and defend.
2:25
I think defensively England, you know, when Minicelo scored that try,
2:30
the prop and the defensive line just did not come up.
2:33
I mean, these are things that you don't see at that level.
2:38
You know, and I was thinking yesterday about Borthwick,
2:41
how hard it's going to be for him now,
2:43
because one thing the English do do.
2:45
They do celebrate their successes in an exaggerated way at times.
2:49
And then other times when they're losing and they need to show some,
2:52
some fortitude, they get rid of the coach.
2:54
So it must be a pretty horrible time in the UK at the moment.
2:57
Yeah, you could just see this stress that Borthwick was under.
3:00
I thought in the second half, nothing was happening.
3:03
I mean, he's sitting with a few game breakers on the bench
3:06
and he just didn't go to it.
3:08
He just wanted to stick with the guys on the field.
3:10
And I was like, you're sitting with a Marcus Smith.
3:13
You're sitting with a Pollock.
3:14
These guys that can change a game,
3:16
and he was just scared to put them on.
3:18
So that must be the pressure.
3:21
Can we, let me start talking about how bad England were.
3:24
Can we, can we celebrate the Italians?
3:26
I mean, and yeah, that's what I said.
3:28
They outplayed them.
3:29
Yeah, no, that's what I said.
3:30
That's what I said, Ricardo.
3:31
I said, everyone will look at how bad England played.
3:35
And what I'm saying is I think they got it tactically wrong
3:38
and I think Victor's right.
3:40
I think they're under pressure.
3:41
And they played like a team that was under pressure.
3:43
And scoreboard pressure is a real thing.
3:46
Sometimes you can get sides that are on paper better.
3:49
But if you can put some scoreboard pressure on it.
3:51
And like I said, the Italians now, I believe, under this new coach,
3:55
are paying the perfect balance of rugby.
3:59
They're playing kicking enough.
4:00
They're doing some cross-kicking.
4:02
They've got a couple of game breakers like Minichello.
4:04
So you can't not play your best to beat them.
4:08
Yeah, we need to talk about Italy.
4:11
I mean, when they beat Scotland, we thought,
4:15
maybe Scotland went on the game.
4:17
Then they pushed Ireland really close.
4:19
And I mean, now they beat England at home.
4:21
So they did feel right up there now.
4:24
And they want to compete with the best in the world.
4:26
So, yeah, we'll have to wait and see.
4:29
Once they play the all-black team box where they get.
4:33
But yeah, they have team on the up and it's great to see.
4:38
I have a question for you, Victor.
4:40
So do you think that it is both sides being like the whole competition being closer?
4:48
Or do you think France can be like sometimes that.
4:55
And England are under pressure so they're not playing well.
4:58
Or do you think the competition's way more even?
5:01
Yeah, I haven't seen France do that for a long time.
5:05
Just having a bad, bad game like in the old days.
5:09
So it's difficult to say the one thing that France did doing this competition
5:14
is they went to a little bit smaller back.
5:16
And I don't know if that comes against him.
5:19
If they had the big forwards, bullying, Scotland,
5:22
maybe that would have worked.
5:24
But on the day they were outplayed, they came back really well at the end.
5:29
But yeah, just too late.
5:32
At that bonus point, it's going to be really important for them
5:35
as they decide the six nations champion.
5:38
But you know, Scotland have really been the form team of the six nations.
5:43
Apart from an early hiccup, they've played some amazing football
5:48
and suddenly Gribbert Townsend's super coach.
5:51
Oh, mate, wait.
5:52
But this is us sitting back.
5:54
If you go back six weeks or whatever, we're all saying France and England.
5:58
And now this week, it's Ireland or Scotland.
6:01
You know, whoever gets up is going to win it.
6:04
That is so good.
6:05
Great for the competition.
6:07
Yeah, look, I think I'll just come back to the quintessential first five.
6:11
You know, I think he is just when he's on his game.
6:15
You know, it's very, very, very hard defensively.
6:19
And people go, oh, people say me, well, what do you mean?
6:22
Like, you know, you've got a forward pack that's competing and getting over the line.
6:26
And then you've got him coming at the line.
6:29
And his ability, his ability under pressure and under defensive pressure
6:34
to make the right past decision.
6:36
And he's got guys running off him all the time.
6:39
So defensively, it ends up on a one-on-one.
6:41
Because he's just got forwards going forward, hitting the line.
6:44
He's got an option on the inside and outside.
6:46
And he'll pass it late.
6:48
So that what that does is it stops the defensive line.
6:51
So guys can't rush because they're thinking, here he comes again.
6:54
I just think when he's on his game, they are a different football team.
7:00
Yeah, it's probably like Johnny Sexton, when Ireland were at their best.
7:05
Johnny took the ball to the line.
7:07
There's always options and he could make under pressure.
7:10
You could make the right decision.
7:13
But you have to give credit to Scotland's sports as well.
7:17
In the last few years, I thought whenever they play against the top team,
7:22
the sports, the football players didn't stand up.
7:25
They couldn't compete with the big boys.
7:28
Well, this football player let by Piers Kuman, of course, really did well.
7:34
And then the other guy, the other guy is three-ballotter at 12.
7:40
At this stage, I think he must be very close to the best inside-cent in the world.
7:46
I mean, he takes the ball to the line, he runs hard.
7:49
He can also play those options with you Jones running,
7:54
often so well at the line.
7:56
So, yeah, they've got a nice balance.
7:59
A lot of South Africans in that team that make them play really well.
8:03
I thought I was patriotic, but you are next level man.
8:06
The whole world does not revolve around South Africans playing well.
8:11
You're not helping them.
8:15
It's two-ballotter. Two-ballotter must be a New Zealander, mate.
8:18
I can try. Maybe you can claim it.
8:21
I tell you what, though, Ricardo and Victor,
8:24
the super rugby has had some really good rugby games.
8:28
Some really good rugby games.
8:30
Yeah, that, of course, say, this Blues game was a hell of a game.
8:33
Yeah, but we've had some, I mean, I don't know what's going on with the World Stars,
8:38
but the hurricanes were good.
8:40
The hurricanes are now scattered with a lot of all blacks,
8:45
so they were very, very good.
8:47
But I think there's some games that aren't so great,
8:50
but the good games, Victor, I'm really actually quite happy
8:53
because good games are actually very, very good.
8:56
There was an intensity to that Blues crusader's game.
8:58
It wasn't just throwing the ball around.
9:00
I mean, it was pretty physical up front.
9:04
You've been barrett played really well.
9:08
In the past, super rugby has been criticized
9:11
for not preparing guys for the style of test rugby,
9:14
but that was a pretty intense game.
9:16
Well, that's what I'm talking about, Ricardo.
9:18
You did right.
9:19
You know, the intensity of touch match rugby,
9:22
the intensity of getting up in a game of,
9:26
in a game of, you know, might be against your greatest rival.
9:29
But for me, that's what I've been impressed with.
9:31
Like, the Highlanders Crusaders game two weeks ago
9:34
was just really intense.
9:36
And it was an intense, you know, Victor,
9:38
when you get a game, and sometimes they're not high scoring,
9:40
but they're just so much fun because they're so intense.
9:43
So I've been really, really happy with the intensity
9:46
that's come back into super rugby.
9:48
And the all blacks have come back in, you know,
9:51
and I thought Bowden, Bowden's first game back,
9:54
and he played 80 minutes, so that was good.
9:56
But the super rugby's been good, and I noticed,
9:59
Elma Eddie Jones commented the other day,
10:02
you know, because he's been bagging it away,
10:04
but it's not the premium game.
10:07
And so have you actually, Victor, you've been saying,
10:10
you know, the rugby's not what it used to be,
10:13
but it's been really good, guys.
10:15
It's been really, really good, and so that gives me a bit of heart
10:17
because, you know, we need to win a series this year,
10:19
in South Africa.
10:20
So we always, you know,
10:22
considering that every, every great rugby player
10:25
in the world at the moment is South African.
10:27
You know, we need to make sure that we...
10:29
I was, I still enjoy this super rugby,
10:32
and when it's like, I mean, the Crusaders, the Blues,
10:35
or the Blues, the Brumbies, and the Reds,
10:38
sticking on each other, the old guys that were always up there
10:41
that's won some of the series, it's always fantastic.
10:44
So, yeah, if watch a few, and it doesn't look too bad,
10:48
you guys.
10:49
New coach, everyone is exciting.
10:51
Everyone is fighting for spots in the whole black team.
10:54
It's going to be exciting, yeah.
10:57
Can I ask you both the question?
10:59
Looking at just the Six Nations teams,
11:02
or the super rugby teams,
11:04
it just imagine it was, you know,
11:06
you were back in your playing peak, you know, for UJK,
11:09
that was a few years ago.
11:12
What team in the world, if you could choose to be playing
11:17
in one team in the world,
11:18
put your sort of...
11:20
your sort of pride in team favourites behind you,
11:25
but one team, because of the style of rugby they're playing,
11:27
what team are they playing?
11:28
What are you trying to say to us is we're now left
11:30
to play for the old mix, that figure.
11:33
Yeah, no, one international team,
11:35
the style of rugby, what style of rugby would suit you?
11:39
Springs.
11:41
No, you're not left.
11:42
You're not left in the playing box.
11:44
Do it.
11:45
That was a quick little bit.
11:46
Well, that's one of Ricardo's dumb questions, right?
11:49
The style of playing.
11:51
The spring box.
11:53
Yeah, old record.
11:55
Choose the spring box.
11:56
Choose another team.
11:57
I like the style they play.
11:59
No, you do.
12:00
We picked that up.
12:02
I would pick France for a couple of reasons.
12:06
I think that the old blacks,
12:08
because I'm going to name them,
12:09
because Victor always talks about the spring box.
12:11
The old blacks in France have always had an affinity
12:13
with how you want to play,
12:14
and I think when the French played their style of rugby,
12:17
I'll tell you a little story.
12:19
I went when I was playing in 99,
12:21
we flew to play to lose one night,
12:23
and honestly, it was the hardest game of rugby
12:26
that we've ever played.
12:27
It was like chasing shadows.
12:28
They had that, you know,
12:29
drawing past game going on,
12:31
and it was just an incredible event for me.
12:33
First time ever, I'd played against the French club side.
12:36
So, for me, it'd be France,
12:37
just because I love the style I play,
12:39
and when they play that, you know,
12:40
that French style,
12:41
I think it's pretty, pretty good to watch.
12:44
I actually had my worst night also in to lose,
12:48
but not because of the flare that add,
12:50
but the physicality.
12:52
I remember myself and Bucky's relying next to each other,
12:57
next to the field, getting stitches.
12:59
And they smashed us that game.
13:01
So, yeah, I think if you,
13:03
an absolute default,
13:04
I'm a big fan of this French team.
13:08
I love the way Bordeaux end to lose our playing.
13:11
So, I mean, they've got the physicality.
13:14
They've got the flare.
13:15
I mean, they've got,
13:17
I'm a big fan of Jalibir as well at 10.
13:20
So, yeah, I really do enjoy that.
13:24
But that's a massive call from someone like you,
13:27
saying one of the most physical games was
13:30
in France against to lose.
13:33
No, it was against the French.
13:36
Against the French.
13:38
So, it was against the French.
13:41
Yes, yes, yes.
13:43
And who was physical?
13:45
The whole back.
13:48
The whole back was just crazy.
13:50
I don't know if you remember the Rasta Dumisani.
13:54
He sang their...
13:57
our false lead.
13:59
And he couldn't sing it.
14:00
He was like wrapping it.
14:01
And we all turning around what's happening.
14:03
Yeah.
14:04
It was just crazy.
14:05
And then we got smacked on the field as well.
14:08
But it's actually at the end of the night when we beat
14:10
all the three times in the year.
14:12
In the French.
14:14
There's no need to bring it up, Victor.
14:17
There's no context.
14:19
And you're talking about getting smashed in France.
14:22
I'm just thanking you.
14:24
Yeah, thank you.
14:26
I actually think, you know,
14:28
as a lock, obviously, Victor,
14:30
you had incredible talent.
14:32
But I think your greatest talent is your ability
14:35
to get any conversation to the spring box,
14:39
beating your glass.
14:41
That is an incredible gift.
14:43
Or anything will come.
14:44
Well, he didn't happen in loss when I played.
14:46
So I must enjoy it now that it's happening a bit more.
14:49
Who would you play for Ricardo?
14:53
At my high ability.
14:56
I think...
14:58
I think Scotland will be a great team to play for.
15:01
I think with Vin Russell there,
15:04
just the style of rugby that played over the last few weeks.
15:08
You know?
15:09
He's something for...
15:11
He's an interesting question for you.
15:13
And I spoke to a...
15:14
You know, I...
15:15
I don't want to say, you know, I've been playing so well.
15:19
Because of his forward pack, you're about to take you to the lock.
15:21
You've got to get coached by your unfunner from.
15:23
In boxing.
15:24
Yeah.
15:25
Of course.
15:26
Why don't we raise it?
15:28
I was talking to...
15:30
I was talking to a couple of guys who remain nameless,
15:33
who spent some time in Ireland,
15:36
you know, at the highest level.
15:38
And this is a question for you.
15:41
He absolutely loved it,
15:43
and it proved his game,
15:44
because it was a little bit more relaxed.
15:46
So they could still go and have a couple of years,
15:48
and they still had a relatively...
15:51
Yeah.
15:52
A relatively good management on their imbalance.
15:56
I'll call it Ricardo,
15:57
because, you know, when you're professional sportsman,
15:59
there's no balance.
16:00
That's imbalance.
16:01
But I wonder if, you know,
16:03
the...
16:04
I wonder if the highest level,
16:06
they're taking the fun out of it, you know?
16:08
Maybe England just aren't having fun.
16:10
I know funds and winning, Victor.
16:11
I know you're going to come straight back at that.
16:13
But there is some...
16:14
No, no, no.
16:15
Having a bit of a good time,
16:16
still being able to go and have a beer
16:18
and enjoy and relax yourself.
16:19
You know, it's not about...
16:20
Yeah.
16:21
I was just about chilling and doing things differently,
16:23
thinking differently about it.
16:25
So I know you don't watch the URC,
16:27
because we trade this,
16:29
but speaking to a...
16:32
You aren't a commoner to go from the bull,
16:34
and they really struggled,
16:35
and then they went on tour,
16:37
and they just decided the place needs to get closer
16:40
that two contiquies every week,
16:43
after the game,
16:44
and on a Wednesday night.
16:46
They had like a fine sessions with a few beers,
16:49
and it just brought the guys together
16:51
and all of a sudden,
16:52
they playing really well.
16:53
So I think you can never take that out of the game.
16:57
The guys need to focus,
16:59
but they need to have fun.
17:00
They must enjoy each other's company.
17:03
And you say, don't have that.
17:04
I don't think they can go out and play for each other on the field.
17:08
It's the greatest time of your life,
17:12
but you can get a bit...
17:14
I don't know if you did during your career,
17:17
but I certainly did.
17:18
I got too serious on myself
17:20
and tried too hard at times,
17:22
and looking after every rock to be a better player,
17:26
and when I relaxed a bit,
17:28
I was way better.
17:30
So that pressure on the players and on the coaching staff.
17:34
And you need to...
17:35
What is a contiqui, by the way?
17:37
Let's see.
17:38
When you give them...
17:39
Fine.
17:40
Fine speaking.
17:41
Okay, yeah, okay.
17:42
How did you know they've got it?
17:43
I just worked it out.
17:44
Good on you.
17:46
Yeah, so for me, there's that balance.
17:49
And I think you're right.
17:50
It's really up to the coaching staff to take that pressure off
17:53
and try and have some fun, I guess.
17:55
Hey, just before we leave.
17:57
So we talked last week about Transval.
17:59
I see Western Provence has been in the headlines in South Africa.
18:03
Victor, what's happening there?
18:05
Uh, that they want to take the daisy
18:07
or the Western Provence away,
18:09
and make this stormy.
18:10
Yeah, so we pretty much like you guys,
18:12
so we had the old Northern Transval,
18:16
the Transval,
18:20
Vipir, free state,
18:22
and then with super rugby,
18:24
going into like the four French artists.
18:27
So in the U.S., they always played as franchises,
18:30
but when they played in the curry cup,
18:32
they will go back to being Western Provence,
18:35
and now they want to take that away.
18:37
And, uh, yeah, the old supporters aren't really happy with that.
18:41
Getting rid of Newlands,
18:42
and now the name Western Provence,
18:44
so they're not very happy.
18:46
Yeah, I think tribalism and traditionism,
18:48
I would love to go back to NBC,
18:50
but I think that horse is bolted.
18:53
Victor, but the reason I love Transval,
18:55
and up on the Veltas,
18:57
when we went back in 92,
18:59
I just had the greatest time ever.
19:01
Like, you know, I'm from New Zealand,
19:03
and besides you guys being annoying at rugby,
19:07
like you're annoying,
19:08
and you're really annoying, Victor.
19:10
You know, I went to a game park for the first time,
19:14
and we were looked after by these amazing people, you know,
19:17
and your country is just so damn beautiful,
19:21
and so rugged, and for us Kiwis,
19:23
you know, we don't even have a,
19:24
we don't even have a spider that can kill you over here.
19:26
You know, we've got nothing.
19:28
And we're out there in the jungle,
19:30
and all the guides who are, you know, rugby people,
19:34
telling us we're going to lucky.
19:37
You know, it was just just the beauty that's undescribable,
19:42
but still the greatest holiday that I've had with my family
19:45
up on the Velt.
19:46
So that's why I'm still talking about,
19:49
you know, the High Velt,
19:51
for us to go up and play at that high meterage, Victor,
19:54
like it killed us.
19:55
My lungs were burning, you know?
19:57
It was crazy.
19:59
Actually, Jake, I just want to say he loves the Springboks.
20:02
That's actually what you want to say.
20:04
No, no, please, please do not misinterpret that at all Victor.
20:09
Please don't do that, but...
20:11
In every album, Instagram click,
20:13
John Cohen, I love the Springboks.
20:15
No, it's not going to happen.
20:17
It is not going to happen.
20:19
You are really anointingly good,
20:21
which makes you really annoying.
20:23
All of you.
20:25
I'm so glad that you've come into our lives, Victor,
20:27
because you've taken a lot of the pressure away
20:29
from me of being really annoying.
20:31
Yeah, you're annoying.
20:33
I'm helping you, Ricardo.
20:35
Yeah, that's great.
20:36
All right.
20:37
Hey, by the way, Trimby City couldn't make it today,
20:40
because he's flat out.
20:41
I saw him on his own.
20:42
He's got another podcast.
20:44
Yes, I'd be asked,
20:46
may the only comes on in Ireland when anyway?
20:48
Yeah.
20:49
And you probably don't think they're going to win this weekend,
20:52
so he just disappeared.
20:54
Yeah.
20:55
All right.
20:56
Well, that would be...
20:57
Hey, is this true?
20:58
Scotland of Neville, winner?
21:00
No, they won't.
21:01
Yeah, never.
21:02
Oh, not the Six Nations.
21:04
They've never won the Six Nations, either.
21:07
Are you sure?
21:08
I don't know.
21:09
I'm pretty sure they won't win the...
21:10
No, I'm pretty sure.
21:11
I bet they won't.
21:12
You have an haste.
21:13
I bet it...
21:14
I bet it texts Gavin Hastings.
21:15
I'm pretty sure he won it.
21:17
Yeah, no.
21:18
Yeah, John Leslie, that error won it.
21:21
I'm pretty sure they did.
21:22
I bet they won when he lost all five nations.
21:24
Maybe it's just the Six Nations they've given one.
21:27
Yeah.
21:28
Don't ask those questions.
21:30
We don't know the answer to, please.
21:32
We look bad.
21:33
I'm sure we've got some Scottish.
21:35
We'll let it come on and tell us.
21:37
I'll text.
21:38
All right.
21:39
I'll text Big Gav.
21:40
I'll screen Hastings, aren't I?
21:41
So in summary, Jacob loves the Springboks, and we don't know.
21:45
I know.
21:46
Ricardo.
21:47
Ricardo.
21:48
That's not a joke anymore.
21:50
Cool.
21:51
All right.
21:52
That's the end of the show.
21:53
Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.
21:54
I do.
21:55
I'm just asking who's going to win the Six Nations.
21:58
Will you tell me at the beginning it was either England and France.
22:01
I said Scotland.
22:02
I never said England.
22:03
I said France from the beginning.
22:06
Yeah.
22:07
And France has still got the best answer.
22:09
I said Scotland, Ricardo, you cannot piggyback that.
22:12
I did.
22:13
You did not.
22:14
Go back and watch.
22:15
I said that Scotland won the Six Nations.
22:17
And then they lost in the first game.
22:21
But there they.
22:23
Jacob, were you going for?
22:25
I think France deserved to win because I think they're consistent.
22:29
I think them losing this week.
22:30
They'll get up this week.
22:31
Pretty big time.
22:32
Do you think England can upset them?
22:34
I don't think so.
22:35
Oh, yeah.
22:37
I do.
22:38
I don't think I think England.
22:40
I think of France had of one easily.
22:42
It would have been a high risk.
22:43
Just because that had a Latin thing.
22:45
But then losing, you know, no.
22:50
Me too.
22:51
What about you?
22:52
France think they'll win with a bonus point and the point difference will pull them through.
22:58
Okay.
22:59
The reason I didn't ask you who you thought would win is you're always wrong.
23:03
So, you know, I didn't waste one of my time.
23:06
Is there a South African in the French side?
23:10
That might be a problem for them.
23:12
So maybe Scotland is the favourites.
23:14
I don't know.
23:15
Maybe I'd change.
23:18
All right.
23:19
We'll catch you next week.
23:20
Thanks.
23:21
You guys.
23:22
Who's chosen the right one.
23:23
And I'm still picking Scotland.
23:25
I still have to do it.
23:26
Thanks, guys.