Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #087 Jason Flom with Fred Clay

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#087 Jason Flom with Fred Clay · Wrongful Conviction

0:01
Speaker 1: This call is from a correction facility, and it's subject
0:03
Speaker 1: to monitoring and recording.
0:07
Speaker 2: I can put athlete eleven and it hasn't been.
0:17
Speaker 3: Easy a hundred years.
0:20
Speaker 1: That's man.
0:21
Speaker 3: I'm a kid. I didn't do anything, you know, and uh,
0:24
Speaker 3: you know that was a that was real painful, man,
0:28
Speaker 3: you know, because my life was discarded as if you know,
0:32
Speaker 3: like I was a piece of trash or something, you know,
0:34
Speaker 3: one hundred years and I had dreams and I wanted
0:37
Speaker 3: to do things. I wasn't committing crimes, you know. I
0:40
Speaker 3: was a very good young man.
0:42
Speaker 4: That is what happens in so many cases. The cops
0:45
Speaker 4: have a hunch, because they're so smart at the scene,
0:49
Speaker 4: they have a hunch, and once they act on that hunch,
0:52
Speaker 4: they sort of developed tunnel vision and they take off
0:55
Speaker 4: marching in the wrong direction. And that happens in so
0:58
Speaker 4: many of these wrongful convictions.
1:00
Speaker 1: The opening to sell door and I'll walk down stif
1:04
Speaker 1: and I actually walked down stairs to be outside. It
1:08
Speaker 1: felt very strange to be, like I said, to be
1:11
Speaker 1: walking without no shackles on my feet. I thought it
1:14
Speaker 1: was a dream. But then again, it wasn't a dream.
1:17
Speaker 5: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. This
1:30
Speaker 5: is Jason Flamm. I'm your host, and today we have
1:34
Speaker 5: an extraordinary episode. I mean, I am I don't even
1:39
Speaker 5: I'm at a loss for words, but I'm going to
1:41
Speaker 5: introduce our guests right now. Fred Clay was wrongfully imprisoned
1:45
Speaker 5: at the age of sixteen and served thirty eight years
1:48
Speaker 5: for a murder he didn't commit. Fred, Welcome to the show.
1:53
Speaker 1: Thank you very much, very long. I appreciate it very much.
1:56
Speaker 5: I always say I'm glad, I'm sorry you're here, but
1:59
Speaker 5: I'm glad you're here, and I want to start off
2:02
Speaker 5: by apologizing to you on behalf of the human race
2:05
Speaker 5: and America and people and just there's nothing that can
2:10
Speaker 5: be said, but let me just put that out there
2:13
Speaker 5: for starters and with us. Today is Chris Barrell. Chris
2:19
Speaker 5: Barrell is an investigative reporter with the nonprofit New England
2:22
Speaker 5: Center for Investigative Reporting, a WGBH News partner who does
2:28
Speaker 5: work on well, he's worked on your case. You're telling
2:31
Speaker 5: your story and as many others well as many others.
2:34
Speaker 5: So Chris, welcome, Glad you're here.
2:35
Speaker 6: Thanks very much, glad to be here.
2:38
Speaker 5: Chris, how did you first come across this story and
2:41
Speaker 5: why did it impact you so much that you wanted
2:43
Speaker 5: to do an article about it.
2:45
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, I work for the New England Center for
2:46
Speaker 6: Investigative Reporting. We've done several stories on wrongful conviction cases
2:52
Speaker 6: and specifically this issue of you know, what happens afterwards,
2:57
Speaker 6: because we do know there's a fair amount of media
2:58
Speaker 6: attention when this happen and somebody's served a long amount
3:02
Speaker 6: of time for a crime that they that they didn't
3:05
Speaker 6: do and they're released and it's you know, a lot
3:07
Speaker 6: of applause and a lot of TV cameras. So I
3:10
Speaker 6: was there the day he got out, as was a
3:11
Speaker 6: lot of other media. But the question came up, well,
3:15
Speaker 6: what is what is life really like? You know, once
3:18
Speaker 6: this kind of once the applause fades, what is what
3:20
Speaker 6: is what is a person's life really like? So initially
3:24
Speaker 6: Fred was not that keen on me proffering this idea
3:28
Speaker 6: of following him around at different points over the course
3:31
Speaker 6: of about a year, but I met with him on
3:33
Speaker 6: a couple occasions and he seemed open to it, and
3:37
Speaker 6: so we just struck up this this intervals of trying
3:41
Speaker 6: to meet up and I wanted to see him in
3:43
Speaker 6: different situations, trying to navigate again the basic survival, the blocks,
3:49
Speaker 6: the basic blocks of survival. How do you, how do
3:52
Speaker 6: you find shelter, how do you how do you feed yourself?
3:54
Speaker 6: And so for the first few months he didn't he
3:56
Speaker 6: didn't have a job. He had a little bit of
3:59
Speaker 6: money from from a go fund Me site and he
4:03
Speaker 6: had food stamps. And his first job was working for UPS,
4:07
Speaker 6: which was very uneven work. He'd show up for a
4:10
Speaker 6: shift and they'd tell him, well, we've only got a
4:12
Speaker 6: couple hours work instead of a full shift, and he'd
4:14
Speaker 6: walk home through the snow in the street because people
4:18
Speaker 6: didn't show their sidewalks, and we get a lot of
4:19
Speaker 6: snow up in northern Massachusetts. And it wasn't until sometime
4:25
Speaker 6: late winter, early spring that he got this job precision
4:29
Speaker 6: grinding aviation parts, grinding metal, and he seemed really grateful
4:35
Speaker 6: to have that work. But as everybody knows, rent in
4:38
Speaker 6: most cities in America is really high, and the most
4:41
Speaker 6: he could afford was basically a room and a basement.
4:46
Speaker 6: And he said at least once that that room kind
4:49
Speaker 6: of reminded him, reminded him of prison. All it had
4:52
Speaker 6: was a tiny window, not a whole lot of light
4:56
Speaker 6: coming into it. And that was the best that his
4:59
Speaker 6: circumstance this can allow.
5:01
Speaker 5: So, Frederick, this is such an insane story because even
5:05
Speaker 5: though we're in our eighth season of Wrongful Conviction, we've
5:09
Speaker 5: told over seventy stories already. H and Just and I've
5:13
Speaker 5: been working for twenty five years in this struggle. I'm
5:17
Speaker 5: the founding board member of the Innocence Project. I thought
5:20
Speaker 5: I heard everything until I heard your story. And you know,
5:25
Speaker 5: seeing the pictures of you as a sixteen year old
5:29
Speaker 5: child really just scared out of your mind faced with
5:33
Speaker 5: this nightmare situation. It almost it almost reminded me of
5:37
Speaker 5: Emmett Till or something. It was just so it just
5:40
Speaker 5: hurts my heart. But let's go back to that time.
5:44
Speaker 5: You were living in a foster home.
5:46
Speaker 1: At that time, right, Yes, I was living a foster home.
5:48
Speaker 1: I was placed in it by DYS. I have some
5:51
Speaker 1: juvenile cases and I got convicted too. I got sentenced
5:55
Speaker 1: to like to DYS and he sent me to Boys
6:00
Speaker 1: into Center and stay there for a little while month
6:03
Speaker 1: from there to a program stay of football six months,
6:06
Speaker 1: I believe, and they decided that I need to be
6:10
Speaker 1: in a falseter home. So I was in a fossil
6:12
Speaker 1: home at that.
6:13
Speaker 5: Time, and you were not a big guy either. You
6:16
Speaker 5: were like I mean, I remember reading that when this happened,
6:19
Speaker 5: you were like five four, about one hundred pounds. You
6:22
Speaker 5: were obviously ill prepared for any type of scenario, Like
6:26
Speaker 5: there's no one's prepared for it. But let's go back
6:29
Speaker 5: to it and Chris jump in anytime. I mean, how
6:32
Speaker 5: did this happen?
6:34
Speaker 1: Was?
6:34
Speaker 5: Why was Fred targeted for? This was the murder of
6:37
Speaker 5: a taxi driver in Massachusetts? Right? And can you give
6:41
Speaker 5: us a little background on that?
6:43
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I mean, the way I understand it is.
6:45
Speaker 6: Fred was arrested just a few weeks after turning sixteen,
6:48
Speaker 6: charged with the murder of a cab driver. The really
6:52
Speaker 6: crazy part of the story was that one of another
6:55
Speaker 6: cab driver who saw three young Africa American men get
7:00
Speaker 6: into a cab, said he was able to id one
7:03
Speaker 6: of them another the second person he couldn't id, and
7:07
Speaker 6: the police used the practice they used back then of
7:10
Speaker 6: hypnotizing a witness in a case, believing that the brain
7:14
Speaker 6: functioned a lot like a videotape and that you could
7:17
Speaker 6: put a witness under hypnosis and ask them to rewind
7:20
Speaker 6: to a certain date and time, and suddenly your brain
7:23
Speaker 6: would see things that hadn't recalled before. And that was
7:27
Speaker 6: one of the pieces that led police to arrest and
7:32
Speaker 6: charge Fred and ultimately for prosecutors to convict him.
7:35
Speaker 5: But this Fred, this witness, how did he come to
7:39
Speaker 5: identify you? Were you anywhere near the scene at the time?
7:42
Speaker 5: Did you know these people?
7:44
Speaker 1: I was not in the scene. I was in a
7:46
Speaker 1: Foster home and sleeping in the bed. I really don't
7:50
Speaker 1: know how he became to identify me. I really can't
7:54
Speaker 1: answer that question. He claims he saw the picture of
7:59
Speaker 1: the cab driver of the cab in the front page
8:02
Speaker 1: of the Boston Globe, and he recognized the cap number.
8:06
Speaker 1: I guess one of his friends used to break that
8:09
Speaker 1: cap and he thought, he's, uh, the perpetrators get into
8:15
Speaker 1: the cab the previous night, and I guess he just
8:18
Speaker 1: went to the police station and tried to cooperate with
8:23
Speaker 1: the police. There was hypnosis involved. I think he was
8:28
Speaker 1: showing my picture a few times, like four or five,
8:31
Speaker 1: six times, and when they hypnotized them, instead of him
8:35
Speaker 1: actually placing it, you know, actually viewing the people, the
8:39
Speaker 1: perpetrator at the scene of crime. He's sort of like mugshot.
8:43
Speaker 1: Sort of my faith from the mugshot.
8:46
Speaker 5: Was in his mind, right, So yeah, I mean what
8:49
Speaker 5: we know that hypnosis, Going back to what Chris was saying,
8:51
Speaker 5: hypnosis will make you see things you haven't seen before,
8:54
Speaker 5: but they will may not have any collection to reality. Right,
8:57
Speaker 5: that's the problem.
8:58
Speaker 1: I don't think. I don't think the hypnosi had anything
9:00
Speaker 1: to do with when someone shows you a photograph five
9:03
Speaker 1: or six times, that face is somewhat imprinted in your mind.
9:07
Speaker 5: Of course. I mean, that's one thing we do know
9:09
Speaker 5: about the mind is if you keep getting repeated the
9:13
Speaker 5: same image repeated over and over again, it's going to
9:16
Speaker 5: play tricks on your mind, and your mind will start
9:18
Speaker 5: to go in that place.
9:19
Speaker 1: And was this That's why I think what happened. He
9:22
Speaker 1: just does your mind played his mind played tricks on something.
9:25
Speaker 1: I really can't I really can't answer that question how
9:27
Speaker 1: he picked me out? But he did.
9:29
Speaker 5: Was there was this robbery at night?
9:31
Speaker 1: Yes, it's four o'clock in the morning, four.
9:32
Speaker 5: O'clock in the morning, so it's pitch dark outside, right,
9:35
Speaker 5: and this guy supposedly saw the robbery, right, But we
9:38
Speaker 5: know how I mean, and we also know that the
9:40
Speaker 5: brain when you witness a violent crime I wouldn't identification
9:43
Speaker 5: is notoriously unreliable in the first place. If somebody busts
9:48
Speaker 5: into the studio now and attacks one of us, and
9:50
Speaker 5: then they put us in a lineup, there's almost just
9:52
Speaker 5: as much chance that someone who wasn't here will identify
9:54
Speaker 5: the correct perpetrator or not get the wrong perpetrator the
9:57
Speaker 5: same way that we will, which is a crazy and
10:00
Speaker 5: people listening going, that's not true, but it has been
10:01
Speaker 5: proven over and over again. But it's the brain goes crazy,
10:08
Speaker 5: so to speak, because of adrenaline and other factors when
10:10
Speaker 5: you're in the presence when you're actually in danger. Right, So,
10:13
Speaker 5: when you're either the victim or when you're witness to
10:17
Speaker 5: a violent crime, as this one was, we know that
10:20
Speaker 5: your senses are altered because of the fact that you're
10:27
Speaker 5: just scared out of your brain literally. So and this
10:30
Speaker 5: was one of those cases, right, this was a shooting.
10:33
Speaker 6: Yeah, there's two. I'll jump in here to help clarify this.
10:35
Speaker 6: So the witness we're talking about, who was hypnotized by police,
10:38
Speaker 6: had claimed that he'd seen these these young African American
10:43
Speaker 6: males get into this cab. Then the cab goes or
10:48
Speaker 6: allegedly goes to a housing project a little bit south
10:52
Speaker 6: of the city in Roslindale. And then there was another
10:55
Speaker 6: witness that also had pretty serious question marks around how
10:59
Speaker 6: the police interacted with this witness, and this other witness
11:02
Speaker 6: claimed that he did actually see the shooting out of
11:05
Speaker 6: a window of an apartment in the housing project. What
11:09
Speaker 6: Fred's attorneys later found out and really stressed and trying
11:14
Speaker 6: to re engage with this case and prove that Fred
11:17
Speaker 6: didn't do it, was see that this witness was I
11:21
Speaker 6: think a teenager. He had pretty severe developmental, you know,
11:25
Speaker 6: cognitive issues, and that police furthermore told him and his
11:30
Speaker 6: family that if they testified against Fred, that they would
11:35
Speaker 6: be moved out of this project housing project which was
11:38
Speaker 6: mostly African American, into a housing project which was mostly white.
11:42
Speaker 6: And again this witness was white.
11:45
Speaker 5: Wow, so you talk about coercion or you know, And
11:50
Speaker 5: isn't that a crazy thing to Chris and Fred is
11:52
Speaker 5: that everyone, even the most casual TV watcher right who
11:57
Speaker 5: watched his crime shows, knows that you cannot bribe a witness.
12:00
Speaker 5: You go to prison for riving witness in America. Right,
12:02
Speaker 5: but the government is able to offer the best bribe
12:06
Speaker 5: that there is. I mean, in this case, it was
12:08
Speaker 5: a new home. Right, It's almost like a game show.
12:10
Speaker 5: Here's a new home. Just testify the way we want
12:12
Speaker 5: you to. Or they can threaten you. Or they can
12:16
Speaker 5: threaten you, and they do that very often, will take
12:17
Speaker 5: your kids away, will lock you up for some prior
12:20
Speaker 5: thing whatever. Or they can also agree to vacate charges
12:24
Speaker 5: or reduce charges that they have against you. So it's
12:27
Speaker 5: amazing that the weapons that they have in there are
12:29
Speaker 5: so it's really not a fair fight whatsoever. But what
12:30
Speaker 5: were you going to say? Fred?
12:34
Speaker 1: Also the witness that Chris was talking about, they happened
12:38
Speaker 1: to Ros and their projects. This witness I sort of
12:42
Speaker 1: I didn't know him personally, but we've seen each other
12:45
Speaker 1: from time to time in the projects, so he was
12:47
Speaker 1: familiar with my faith. That's another thing that was really
12:52
Speaker 1: that was really not really mentioned a little bit, but
12:55
Speaker 1: it wasn't really focused on. So when someone recognized your
12:58
Speaker 1: face and they see your your picture in the in
13:01
Speaker 1: the photo array, then they're not really picking out the perpetrated.
13:06
Speaker 1: They're picking out a familiar face. So just because he
13:10
Speaker 1: was familiar with by face. He sort of just placed
13:12
Speaker 1: me at the scene of crime based on the fact
13:14
Speaker 1: that he was familiar with my face, not because he
13:16
Speaker 1: saw me at the scene the crime.
13:19
Speaker 5: So we have a couple of factors here that are
13:21
Speaker 5: very common and wrong for convictions. We have police misconduct,
13:25
Speaker 5: we have wrong flight witness identification, two of those in fact,
13:31
Speaker 5: and then it gets worse. So you were were you
13:35
Speaker 5: at home when you were arrested? How did this all
13:37
Speaker 5: go down? And how long did you have to wait
13:39
Speaker 5: for trial? Who was your I assume you had a
13:41
Speaker 5: public defender. Can you fill in some of those blanks
13:44
Speaker 5: for us?
13:44
Speaker 1: Fred, Yes, I was at the foster home when I
13:47
Speaker 1: got it. I was actually when I went, I was
13:51
Speaker 1: on probation because I had some juvenile cases, so I
13:56
Speaker 1: had some issuons with the foster parent. I really didn't.
14:00
Speaker 1: And she claims I ran away, but I never really
14:02
Speaker 1: ran away. I just you know, vanished from time to
14:05
Speaker 1: time and came back. But anyway, I showed up on
14:09
Speaker 1: November fifteen through her house and I didn't know that,
14:12
Speaker 1: but she had previously reported me for running. So when
14:16
Speaker 1: I showed up on November fifteen, she informed me that
14:20
Speaker 1: I can stay that night, but at the same time,
14:25
Speaker 1: she didn't want me to do the next morning. I
14:27
Speaker 1: had to leave the next morning. So the next morning
14:31
Speaker 1: came and she told me I had to leave because
14:33
Speaker 1: she reported me running. She didn't want the police that
14:35
Speaker 1: are out, so I left, and I was on probation,
14:38
Speaker 1: so I went to the probation officer and sort of
14:41
Speaker 1: told her what was going on, and based on that,
14:46
Speaker 1: they sent me back to another facility that I was
14:48
Speaker 1: previously held at before, a juvenile facility, and I was
14:53
Speaker 1: there for a few for about a little over a
14:56
Speaker 1: couple of weeks, I believe, and to playing cozy touches.
14:59
Speaker 1: Came in one evening and they went up to the
15:01
Speaker 1: main desk to talk to the council of work there,
15:05
Speaker 1: and maybe about two minutes after that, they called my
15:07
Speaker 1: name and I went up to the desk and they
15:09
Speaker 1: asked me my name. I told my name is Frederick Clay.
15:12
Speaker 1: They told me they needed to speak with me, so
15:14
Speaker 1: they took me to like a little room off to
15:17
Speaker 1: the side, and in that room they informed me that
15:20
Speaker 1: David was arrested me for murder. So I really didn't
15:23
Speaker 1: know anything about the murder until it actually they came
15:26
Speaker 1: there and arrest me for it, and my attorney at
15:30
Speaker 1: the time when I went to trial was Thomas Saperro.
15:33
Speaker 1: So it's kind of crazy how I was somewhat informed
15:39
Speaker 1: about the murder.
15:40
Speaker 5: How long were you in jail awaiting trial, because I'm
15:43
Speaker 5: assuming that there was either new years two years waiting. Wow,
15:46
Speaker 5: So that whole thing about it in the constitution.
15:49
Speaker 1: Arrested November seventy nine and I didn't go to trial
15:52
Speaker 1: until nineteen eighty one.
15:53
Speaker 5: Right, that whole thing in the constitution about your right
15:56
Speaker 5: to a speedy trial, we really don't see that very
15:59
Speaker 5: often in this country. It's kind of weird. I don't
16:01
Speaker 5: know how that can be so routinely ignored or violated,
16:05
Speaker 5: but it is, and your case is sadly not atypical
16:09
Speaker 5: in that sense. So you're in jail for two years
16:11
Speaker 5: awaiting trial, and let's go to the trial, because it's
16:18
Speaker 5: always I think for our listeners and even for me
16:22
Speaker 5: an eye opener, to hear how these things go, especially
16:26
Speaker 5: in a case as serious as this one where you
16:28
Speaker 5: were facing life in prison. Tell us what you can
16:31
Speaker 5: remember about the trial? For instance, did you think if
16:35
Speaker 5: you can remember and again, you were in prison, for
16:38
Speaker 5: so long. I mean, it's actually crazy. You went to
16:40
Speaker 5: prison at sixteen, and you were in for thirty eight years,
16:42
Speaker 5: which means you were in prison for almost two and
16:46
Speaker 5: a half times as long as you had been alive, right,
16:49
Speaker 5: and your life experience as a sixteen year old, Let's
16:51
Speaker 5: face it, the first three or four years, we're not
16:53
Speaker 5: even really sentient beings. We're kind of just stumbling around,
16:56
Speaker 5: eating animal crackers or doing whatever we're doing right, and
16:58
Speaker 5: playing with toys and having I'm gonna read us a
17:00
Speaker 5: book and hug us or if we're lucky. So you know,
17:03
Speaker 5: for you, your life experience was so brief before you
17:07
Speaker 5: entered the system, and you had already been in and
17:08
Speaker 5: out of the system. So here you are at trial,
17:14
Speaker 5: and did you, if you can recall, did you feel
17:19
Speaker 5: like when the jury went out that you were going
17:22
Speaker 5: to be convicted or did you still have hope that
17:24
Speaker 5: you did justice would be done.
17:27
Speaker 1: Well, I wasn't really sure there was a fifty to
17:29
Speaker 1: fifty chance that I was going to get convicted. I thought,
17:32
Speaker 1: once I get understand and tell the truth and so
17:36
Speaker 1: sort of present my case and present the evidence that
17:39
Speaker 1: actually prove that I was innocent and have E present
17:43
Speaker 1: my olibi. I thought, I was I might have a
17:47
Speaker 1: chance of being found not guilty, so I was I
17:51
Speaker 1: was hoping that I was going to be found not guilty.
17:53
Speaker 1: But at the back of my mind, according to my attorneys,
17:57
Speaker 1: you know, there was a possible chance that I could
17:59
Speaker 1: get convicted. So I was positive, hopefully that I was
18:03
Speaker 1: going to get found not guilty. But at the same time,
18:07
Speaker 1: I was concerned that I will be found guilty. So
18:12
Speaker 1: I had a fifty to fifty chance.
18:14
Speaker 5: And just backtracking for a second, the witnesses against you,
18:17
Speaker 5: were they white or black?
18:20
Speaker 1: Well, a couple of them was black, I mean white,
18:22
Speaker 1: and one of them was black, But the one was
18:25
Speaker 1: black really didn't really really didn't really hurt me that much.
18:28
Speaker 1: But the two name was that, yes, they was white.
18:31
Speaker 5: And the reason I raised that question is because we
18:35
Speaker 5: know from decades of experience, research, studies, et cetera, that
18:40
Speaker 5: cross racial identifications are just notoriously unreliable, much more so
18:47
Speaker 5: than when people are, you know, trying to identify someone
18:51
Speaker 5: of their own race. I think there's a lot of
18:53
Speaker 5: reasons for that. We don't have to get into all
18:55
Speaker 5: of them, but it's worth knowing because everyone that's listening
18:58
Speaker 5: right now. As I always say on this, always a
19:00
Speaker 5: potential juror, and someday they may be faced with a
19:03
Speaker 5: situation like yours, where there will be I mean, there
19:07
Speaker 5: was no evidence against you, so it was only the
19:09
Speaker 5: witness's word. And if it is a cross racial identification,
19:13
Speaker 5: and it doesn't matter whether that's why white person testifying
19:15
Speaker 5: against a black person, a Hispanic person testifying against a
19:19
Speaker 5: white person, whatever it might be, it's just not reliable.
19:23
Speaker 5: And so your case is an important one to highlight
19:27
Speaker 5: that particular factor because again, the reason why I do
19:31
Speaker 5: this show, Fred is because I want to help to
19:33
Speaker 5: prevent these things from happening to other people in the future,
19:35
Speaker 5: as I'm sure you do.
19:37
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if there was a well known fact
19:39
Speaker 1: back in nineteen eighty one the cross racial identification issue,
19:43
Speaker 1: but it's a well known fact now.
19:45
Speaker 5: Right, and I'm glad you brought that up. So the
19:48
Speaker 5: jury comes back and it had to be the worst
19:52
Speaker 5: feeling in the world, and you were sentenced to life
19:56
Speaker 5: in prison, which is again a bizarre.
19:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, a natural life, not just a life, a natural life.
20:03
Speaker 1: Life sort of means like a second degree life, but
20:05
Speaker 1: natural means a first to be life sentence with the
20:08
Speaker 1: chance of no parole, which means like a you got'spen
20:12
Speaker 1: investing in your life in prison, you go and die
20:14
Speaker 1: in prison.
20:15
Speaker 5: And Chris, let's talk about that. I mean, I mean,
20:18
Speaker 5: what kind of a system do we have where we
20:22
Speaker 5: can sent in someone who was really a child an
20:24
Speaker 5: adolescent when this happened, a young teenager to life in prison. Yeah,
20:30
Speaker 5: I mean it is.
20:31
Speaker 6: It's just shocking. And you know, thankfully there were later,
20:35
Speaker 6: much later, the Supreme Court decisions that tried to undo
20:39
Speaker 6: some of that. So it did at a very much
20:41
Speaker 6: later stage, did make Fred eligible for parole. But we're
20:45
Speaker 6: talking again, decades later that there was some understanding of
20:50
Speaker 6: just how wrong that is. That obviously, to charge someone
20:54
Speaker 6: at sixteen, put and put them to adult trial raises
20:58
Speaker 6: a lot of really serious quesnessions, but then to make
21:03
Speaker 6: that same person prone to being convicted and sentenced to
21:08
Speaker 6: life without any chance of parole is all the more shocking.
21:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, just think about it, judge telling you, a sixteen
21:18
Speaker 1: year old kid that you are incapable of changing, so
21:22
Speaker 1: therefore you need to spend the rest of your life
21:24
Speaker 1: in adults prison. You know, and often think about that
21:29
Speaker 1: and they took me out of a bad situation, and
21:32
Speaker 1: they put me in even a worse situation because a
21:36
Speaker 1: lot of people don't survive prison, and I was thinking
21:39
Speaker 1: about a lot of that stuff and how I was
21:41
Speaker 1: going to survive that, whether I was going to end
21:44
Speaker 1: up being murdered, raped, killed, whatever. So just to have
21:49
Speaker 1: someone tell you at the age of sixteen that we
21:52
Speaker 1: think that you are incapable of changing.
22:00
Speaker 5: And when you went to prison, this was you know,
22:05
Speaker 5: this was the reality, right, I mean, this was a
22:07
Speaker 5: very violent place and you were in amongst people who
22:11
Speaker 5: were much older than you, stronger, you know, and here
22:15
Speaker 5: you are, like thrust into this unimaginable nightmare. How did
22:20
Speaker 5: you manage to survive as a young not a particularly
22:24
Speaker 5: big tough guy, but you know, a young, skinny guy
22:29
Speaker 5: in that situation. How did you manage to survive?
22:32
Speaker 1: Well? Personally, I just paid attention to my surroundings. A
22:35
Speaker 1: lot of older gentleman that was doing natural life sentence
22:39
Speaker 1: sort of took a liking to me, and they just
22:42
Speaker 1: sort of just gave me, just told me the way
22:46
Speaker 1: of prison life. Mind your business. If you see something,
22:51
Speaker 1: keep it to yourself, don't talk to corrections officers, try
22:56
Speaker 1: to stay out of trouble, get into programs, try to
23:00
Speaker 1: use that time to benefit me as a person, to
23:03
Speaker 1: change things about myself that I did not like, to
23:07
Speaker 1: sort of use that time to work on me as
23:11
Speaker 1: a human being. And they also let me. They also
23:14
Speaker 1: told me I had to figure out how to do
23:17
Speaker 1: the time and not let the time do me. And
23:20
Speaker 1: it took me quite a while to understand that. So,
23:24
Speaker 1: like what you mean, due to time and not let
23:25
Speaker 1: the time do me. So basically what they was telling me,
23:28
Speaker 1: just what I was telling you, is just try to
23:31
Speaker 1: use this bad experience and focus on the things that
23:35
Speaker 1: I do do not like about myself and the things
23:37
Speaker 1: that I can change to make me feel good about
23:41
Speaker 1: myself and to make other people see me in a
23:44
Speaker 1: way that I want them to see me. So I
23:48
Speaker 1: it was a little bit of that, and it was
23:50
Speaker 1: just a little bit of me just figuring out who
23:53
Speaker 1: I can trust and who I can't trust, and also
23:57
Speaker 1: not to put myself in a certain position to have
24:01
Speaker 1: some of these bad things happened to me. Just you know,
24:05
Speaker 1: make sure that whoever I'm dealing with be upfront with
24:09
Speaker 1: them about my situation and just be aware of their motives, you.
24:15
Speaker 5: Know, and then there was a sort of a hero emerged,
24:21
Speaker 5: if you could call it that, from this situation. A
24:23
Speaker 5: guy named Roosevelt Pickett really helped to pull you out
24:26
Speaker 5: of this right and introduce you to a very unlikely
24:30
Speaker 5: character who became almost like, I don't use too strong
24:34
Speaker 5: of a word, but almost like your savior, right, And
24:37
Speaker 5: can you talk about that?
24:38
Speaker 1: Oh much?
24:39
Speaker 5: Yeah, that whole situation is so interesting to me, So
24:42
Speaker 5: can you talk about that a little bit?
24:44
Speaker 1: Well. Roosevelt Pickett was as an old gentleman, I think
24:47
Speaker 1: he was like in the sixties, and I knew him
24:50
Speaker 1: at that time. I knew of for about twelve years
24:52
Speaker 1: thirteen years, and he was also doing a life bit
24:56
Speaker 1: and he had he was he was walking on the
24:59
Speaker 1: king he had an accident. He used to do cariding
25:02
Speaker 1: works and stuff like that, so he fell off the
25:04
Speaker 1: roof and he used to walk around with a game. So. Uh. Anyway,
25:08
Speaker 1: I used to work and if I was in Bay
25:11
Speaker 1: State Prison at this time, and I was working downstairs
25:15
Speaker 1: on the first floor in the day room, and he
25:17
Speaker 1: lived on the first floor, and he was down there
25:19
Speaker 1: cooking in the dayroom one afternoon and I was I
25:23
Speaker 1: was down there doing my job and everything and he was.
25:26
Speaker 1: So we started talking about visits and stuff like that,
25:30
Speaker 1: and he asked me, did I have anybody that you know,
25:32
Speaker 1: family members and friends that visit me? And I told him, uh,
25:36
Speaker 1: not really. I had my great aunt. She visited me
25:39
Speaker 1: like every two years, three years a year, whenever she
25:43
Speaker 1: could find time to do it. So then he asked
25:46
Speaker 1: me if I was if I wanted somebody to visit me,
25:49
Speaker 1: like from a church and stuff like that, and I said, sure,
25:52
Speaker 1: why not. I grew up in the opportunity to meet
25:54
Speaker 1: somebody from church and just have a friend to come
25:57
Speaker 1: visit me. So he put me in touch with prison ministry.
26:02
Speaker 1: I think it's called Candlelight Ministries. And I had to
26:06
Speaker 1: fill out some forms and stuff like that, and I
26:09
Speaker 1: filled out the forms and he sent it in and
26:11
Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure how long after that then I
26:15
Speaker 1: met Reverend Fred Small. He came to visit me and
26:20
Speaker 1: I was back in I think that was like in
26:22
Speaker 1: ninety seven, nineteen ninety seven, ninety eight, and once he
26:27
Speaker 1: came to Bay State to visit me. So our friendship
26:32
Speaker 1: developed and got stronger and stronger, and the more he
26:35
Speaker 1: visited me, the more I started talking about my case
26:38
Speaker 1: and me as a person and things I like and dislike,
26:42
Speaker 1: and I just take this interest. And so he helped
26:47
Speaker 1: me somewhat get out of prison.
26:50
Speaker 5: And then he spoke to his parishioners and asked if
26:53
Speaker 5: anybody would like to get involved in this, you know,
26:58
Speaker 5: helping out I guess, you know, volunteering to make friends
27:02
Speaker 5: with someone on the inside. And it's interesting because people
27:05
Speaker 5: ask me that question a lot, and I'm always trying
27:08
Speaker 5: to connect people as best I can. And in fact,
27:13
Speaker 5: a software engineer named Doran Dibble, which is sort of
27:17
Speaker 5: an unusual name, right, it's sort of an interesting If
27:20
Speaker 5: I was writing a movie about your story, I would
27:22
Speaker 5: name the guy Doran Dibble. So Dorian Dibble shows up
27:26
Speaker 5: some sort of a sort of a very square looking
27:28
Speaker 5: white guy, right, sort that comes in out of nowhere.
27:32
Speaker 5: What was your reaction when you met this guy?
27:34
Speaker 1: Well, he was funny, he was very smart, he was kind,
27:37
Speaker 1: he was very kind, he was generous, he was sincere,
27:43
Speaker 1: he was empathetic, he told he told some jokes. I
27:49
Speaker 1: thought he was a very nice guy, and I thought,
27:51
Speaker 1: this is the kind of person that I need in
27:53
Speaker 1: my life to sort of help me, take me out
27:56
Speaker 1: of my comfort zone, so to speak, because I wasn't
27:59
Speaker 1: really that social with in prison, so he sort of
28:03
Speaker 1: sort of brought me out of my shell a little bit.
28:05
Speaker 1: So I thought he was a very nice person something
28:08
Speaker 1: that is, someone that I needed to have in my
28:10
Speaker 1: life to help me grow socially anyway, you know, in
28:16
Speaker 1: many other ways after that, to be exact.
28:19
Speaker 5: And how important was that relationship to you?
28:23
Speaker 1: It was very important. I mean, how many people do
28:27
Speaker 1: you know will bring their their young, small children in
28:31
Speaker 1: to see a person in prison that's non family. So
28:36
Speaker 1: he became uh, I know I used this phrase before.
28:41
Speaker 1: He was a stranger in the beginning, but he became
28:44
Speaker 1: family to me, and and he's still family right now.
28:48
Speaker 1: So his friendship and him being part of my life
28:52
Speaker 1: was very very important then and it's very important now.
28:55
Speaker 1: He's still in my life right now.
28:58
Speaker 5: And Chris, in the article that you wrote about the case,
29:01
Speaker 5: I was really moved by this quote from mister Dibble
29:05
Speaker 5: where he said, and I'm quoting, one of the amazing
29:09
Speaker 5: things for me is given his circumstances we're talking life
29:12
Speaker 5: without parole, his resilience, determination, and his decency through all
29:17
Speaker 5: that It's a model to me. He didn't hate the establishment.
29:21
Speaker 5: We're white, he didn't care. I'm getting the chills just
29:26
Speaker 5: reading that. And you actually did the interview with him.
29:28
Speaker 5: I mean, can you share some insight into this guy,
29:30
Speaker 5: because he really does emerge as a hero in this story.
29:33
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, it is and was an incredible part of
29:38
Speaker 6: the whole story. And just sitting here honestly listening to
29:41
Speaker 6: Fred again, I really enjoyed every minute hanging out with
29:45
Speaker 6: Fred over the course of the last year. And I'm
29:49
Speaker 6: guessing that listeners can kind of get a feel as
29:51
Speaker 6: to how Fred talks and that people are kind of
29:54
Speaker 6: drawn to the way he talks and understands things about
29:58
Speaker 6: this really awful experience he had he had to go through.
30:01
Speaker 6: And so Dorian Dibble and his wife Jackie, and his
30:05
Speaker 6: two kids. I met one of his kids who's now,
30:08
Speaker 6: you know, in his twenties, and I hung out with
30:10
Speaker 6: them over dinner that they invited Fred over, and I
30:13
Speaker 6: asked to come along back in July. And yeah, Dorian
30:19
Speaker 6: and his wife Jackie just are really big hearted people
30:25
Speaker 6: and just showed up there in prison, you know, frequently
30:31
Speaker 6: during the year, like every few months, they would drive
30:33
Speaker 6: down and and go. It's not easy to get into
30:36
Speaker 6: a prison. You gotta sit there and wait and get
30:39
Speaker 6: frisked down and go through metal detectors and wear exactly
30:42
Speaker 6: the right clothing or they turn you away. And you
30:46
Speaker 6: know they again they brought their little kids in to
30:51
Speaker 6: kind of hang out. Friends sit there and play cards,
30:53
Speaker 6: and just the whole dynamic and relationship that was related
30:58
Speaker 6: to me really kind of me away.
31:00
Speaker 5: It's almost like the family that Fred couldn't have, and
31:03
Speaker 5: now all of a sudden he has sort of an
31:05
Speaker 5: adoptive family inside. And you know, it was a long
31:08
Speaker 5: drive and they would come every couple of months. And
31:13
Speaker 5: there's one more quote, and I want to get back
31:14
Speaker 5: to the story because again this really touched me and
31:16
Speaker 5: I got the chills reading the last one. I'm going
31:18
Speaker 5: to get him again because mister Dibble said, quote, we'd
31:24
Speaker 5: all pile back in the car when our visit was
31:26
Speaker 5: over and it was just dead silence in the car.
31:29
Speaker 5: Because that's where it really hit everybody. Oh this is
31:31
Speaker 5: from Jackie Dibble. Say we start again, and missus Dibble,
31:35
Speaker 5: Jackie Dibble said, quote, we'd all pile back in the
31:38
Speaker 5: car when our visit was over, and it was just
31:40
Speaker 5: dead silence in the car because that's where it really
31:43
Speaker 5: hit everybody. We'd walk out of there under the barbed wire.
31:47
Speaker 5: We get to go home and he doesn't, and it
31:50
Speaker 5: was just nobody would say anything on the way home
31:55
Speaker 5: and end quote. And I've had that feeling so many
31:58
Speaker 5: times now visiting people in Priton and who I know
32:00
Speaker 5: are innocent, and then when I leave and that door
32:06
Speaker 5: slams behind and you can't take them with you. It's
32:09
Speaker 5: a horrible feelings. It's a sick feeling actually, And Chris
32:14
Speaker 5: is nodding his head because he knows, and you know,
32:18
Speaker 5: it does drive me and I think all of us
32:21
Speaker 5: every day to try to do more to help people
32:24
Speaker 5: like yourself, Fred, because it's if you've once you've experienced that.
32:30
Speaker 5: And I brought four people with me up to Sing
32:32
Speaker 5: Sing this weekend where we met many of the men
32:37
Speaker 5: who are stuck there, some of whom are innocent, some
32:40
Speaker 5: are not. But you know, I would say that ninety
32:44
Speaker 5: percent of the people that we met there don't belong there.
32:46
Speaker 5: You know, they've served their time, they have made a mistake.
32:50
Speaker 5: I'm of the Brian Stevenson school. He's one of my
32:53
Speaker 5: heroes and you know, he said, I believe everyone is
32:57
Speaker 5: better than the worst thing they've ever done. You know,
33:00
Speaker 5: I think in our system we overincarcerate to such an
33:02
Speaker 5: extreme degree, we over punish. The institutions that we have
33:07
Speaker 5: that are called correctional institutions are not by and large,
33:11
Speaker 5: and all of it needs to change. And that's why
33:13
Speaker 5: it's so important that you're here, Fred to tell your story.
33:15
Speaker 5: So I really appreciate that, and you too, Chris. So
33:18
Speaker 5: Fred tell us how this situation changed. Because you were
33:24
Speaker 5: sentenced to life in prison, you had no hope to
33:26
Speaker 5: get out. You found this inner strength, this grace, this
33:29
Speaker 5: courage that always mystifies me and amazes me and makes me,
33:33
Speaker 5: you know, draws me two people like yourself because I
33:36
Speaker 5: get so much out of just talking to you and
33:42
Speaker 5: spending time. And so how did you ultimately? I mean,
33:48
Speaker 5: we know how you survive because you explain that, But
33:50
Speaker 5: how did you get out? Because you're here now and
33:53
Speaker 5: that's a fantastic thing, and I know, and I want
33:55
Speaker 5: to talk about the struggle of being out as well.
33:57
Speaker 5: Becau's what I call the second punishment. But how did that?
34:01
Speaker 5: Let's get to the happy stuff. How'd you get out?
34:03
Speaker 1: Well, I got out on a new trial motion. Lisa
34:07
Speaker 1: Kavanaugh from the CPCs Innocent Program, she's my attorney. She
34:12
Speaker 1: was my attorney on our pill We drafted and critique
34:19
Speaker 1: and finally finalized a new trial motion, and we followed that.
34:24
Speaker 1: I think when I was in Concuent Farm, probably late
34:30
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. I believe it took a while, but between
34:37
Speaker 1: by witness identification, the hypnosis, cross racial identification, somewhat mug
34:49
Speaker 1: shot exposure, some police reports that the detectives somewhat I
34:55
Speaker 1: mean obviously overlooked. It was a combination of all that
35:00
Speaker 1: stuff together that helped me get out of prison. Also
35:06
Speaker 1: in twenty thirteen, I would say late December twenty thirteen,
35:11
Speaker 1: the Juveeile Life of law change which gave juveniles and
35:16
Speaker 1: opportunities juveniles under the age of eighteen an opportunity to
35:20
Speaker 1: see the parole board. So once that law changed, that
35:24
Speaker 1: law allowed me to see the parole board. So at
35:28
Speaker 1: that particular time, I was not I was still thinking
35:32
Speaker 1: about and preparing for my Route thirty emotion, but I
35:35
Speaker 1: was also preparing for my parole hearing. So I ended
35:42
Speaker 1: up going to parole May twenty first, twenty fifteen, I
35:48
Speaker 1: should say, and the results of that, I ended up
35:53
Speaker 1: getting presented my case a parole board, stating that I
35:58
Speaker 1: was innocent, but at the same time taking responsibility for
36:01
Speaker 1: the crimes that I did do. For the juvenile issue,
36:05
Speaker 1: the cases that I had previous of me getting arrested
36:08
Speaker 1: for this murder case, I took responsibility for all that stuff,
36:12
Speaker 1: but I did not take responsibility for the current case
36:15
Speaker 1: that I was doing time for with much the murder.
36:17
Speaker 1: And I let them know that if I did do it,
36:21
Speaker 1: I would have no problem taking responsibility to meet and guilt.
36:24
Speaker 1: But that's not the case. So I did not admit
36:27
Speaker 1: to something I did not do. But at the same
36:30
Speaker 1: time I was letting them know that prison so you
36:34
Speaker 1: I mean by be being in prison, I was not
36:36
Speaker 1: the same person I was when I first went to president.
36:40
Speaker 1: I was a different person sitting in front of them.
36:42
Speaker 1: So I just explained to them how different I was
36:45
Speaker 1: through programs and education and stuff like that. So basically
36:52
Speaker 1: I got up I was going I was set to
36:54
Speaker 1: get out on parole anyway. I was scheduled to get
36:57
Speaker 1: out on parole August twelve, but August twelfth was on
37:02
Speaker 1: a Saturday, so they pushed it to August fourteenth, was
37:06
Speaker 1: on Monday. And tell you the truth, I'm not quite
37:10
Speaker 1: sure how this happened, but I ended up getting is
37:14
Speaker 1: generated a week before I was scheduled to get released
37:17
Speaker 1: our parole.
37:20
Speaker 5: That is very unusual, and there's so many unusual things
37:23
Speaker 5: about your case. I mean, let's go back to the
37:25
Speaker 5: hypnosis thing, because even even though back then we you know,
37:29
Speaker 5: we didn't, we didn't know a lot of the things
37:30
Speaker 5: that we know now. But even back then, Walter Cronkite
37:33
Speaker 5: was on TV talking about how this hypnosis thing was
37:36
Speaker 5: a disaster and it didn't make any sense. Walter Cronkite
37:39
Speaker 5: were the most respected people in America at that time,
37:42
Speaker 5: one of the most respected journalists of all time. So
37:46
Speaker 5: what was it like, Fred walking out into the fresh
37:50
Speaker 5: air after spending a longer time than most of the
37:56
Speaker 5: people that are listening to the show have even been alive, right,
37:59
Speaker 5: I mean, we have two people in the studio here
38:01
Speaker 5: who haven't been alive that long, thirty eight years.
38:04
Speaker 1: Well, the first thing I did was hug my attorneys,
38:08
Speaker 1: thanked them very much, hugged Shacking and Dorn Dibbles and
38:14
Speaker 1: their family, and Victor Vizario, he was there. I hugged him,
38:20
Speaker 1: and once I did that, I started talking to the media.
38:22
Speaker 1: I see. That was the first thing I did start
38:24
Speaker 1: talking to the media after I hugged my friends and stuff.
38:29
Speaker 1: But to answer your question of what it was like,
38:32
Speaker 1: it was felt very strange to be walking without outside
38:38
Speaker 1: of prison, without no shackles on my feet. That felt
38:42
Speaker 1: very strange. Every time I left prison, no matter to
38:46
Speaker 1: go to the hospital or whatever, to the court, whatever,
38:50
Speaker 1: they always had shackles on your feet. And once they
38:54
Speaker 1: actually said that you're free to go, and they put
38:59
Speaker 1: me in the in the in the like the whole
39:01
Speaker 1: itself for a little while, for like an hour to
39:04
Speaker 1: finalize everything. So once everything was finalized and they opened it,
39:10
Speaker 1: uh the cell door, and I walked downstairs, and I
39:14
Speaker 1: actually walked downstairs to be outside, it felt very strange
39:19
Speaker 1: to be, like I said, to be walking without thrown
39:22
Speaker 1: shackles on my feet. I thought it was a dream.
39:25
Speaker 1: But then again it wasn't a dream, but it was
39:28
Speaker 1: kind of overwhelming. It was I was happy, I was
39:31
Speaker 1: somewhat cautious, and I was like in shocked to some degree.
39:40
Speaker 1: So it was it was a combination of all those things.
39:51
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it's a it's a joyous uh, you know,
39:55
Speaker 5: just thinking about it and envisioning it is such a
39:57
Speaker 5: joyous thing. But I think that people get the idea
40:04
Speaker 5: that you know, everyone sees on the news the photographs
40:09
Speaker 5: or the video of someone like yourself coming out and
40:12
Speaker 5: there's all this joy and you have if you're fortunate
40:15
Speaker 5: enough like you were, to have some friends and family
40:18
Speaker 5: around and there's news media and there's cameras and maybe
40:22
Speaker 5: the sun is shining. But there's another side to that too, right,
40:28
Speaker 5: I mean, you come out and you get nothing like
40:32
Speaker 5: most of the people. And this is crazy because for
40:35
Speaker 5: twenty five years I've been doing this work and anyone
40:38
Speaker 5: I talk to that's not aware. You know, when I
40:40
Speaker 5: meet somebody new and I'm talking about decision because I
40:42
Speaker 5: talk about it everywhere, the first thing they want to
40:45
Speaker 5: know is does the exonery you get paid? Like, just
40:48
Speaker 5: tell me they get money? And I have to tell
40:51
Speaker 5: them that in most cases know and even in the
40:54
Speaker 5: cases when they do, it takes an unconscionably long time,
40:58
Speaker 5: years and years. This is something that the Interests Project
41:01
Speaker 5: has been deeply involved with. Recently, we just passed the
41:04
Speaker 5: compensation statute in Kansas. So it's a thirty first state
41:07
Speaker 5: to actually have compensation statues. There's still nineteen states that
41:10
Speaker 5: have none, no compensation statues. And for you, Fred, coming
41:15
Speaker 5: out of prison after thirty eight years, having gone in
41:19
Speaker 5: as a sixteen year old kid, you know, trying to
41:23
Speaker 5: rebuild your life. I want to focus for a minute
41:26
Speaker 5: on those challenges, which I don't think get the type
41:29
Speaker 5: of attention that they deserve. And I think we as
41:31
Speaker 5: a society owe you and every man and woman that
41:35
Speaker 5: has been through this type of ordeal, we owe you
41:39
Speaker 5: more than a fresh start. I mean, we owe you
41:41
Speaker 5: a debt, and I think that as soon as you
41:44
Speaker 5: get out that should start to be getting repaid. But
41:46
Speaker 5: that's not the way it works, and your case is
41:49
Speaker 5: a very strong example of that. So can you talk
41:53
Speaker 5: about the challenges? I mean, you haven't gotten any money
41:56
Speaker 5: yet right, Well.
41:59
Speaker 1: My working on that right now, so it's still to
42:03
Speaker 1: be remained to be still being rocked on.
42:07
Speaker 5: And how how long have you been out?
42:09
Speaker 1: Not over year now, so it's been August eighth, so
42:14
Speaker 1: it's been.
42:15
Speaker 6: Not over year, fifteen to sixteen months?
42:18
Speaker 1: Fifteen months? Much like that?
42:20
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I can jump in here a little bit.
42:22
Speaker 6: I mean, this was this was this was the focus
42:24
Speaker 6: of my reporting for the last year, was to kind
42:27
Speaker 6: of answer that question, what's life like when you get
42:30
Speaker 6: out of prison? His his Fred's murder conviction was vacated,
42:35
Speaker 6: and you know, my editors suggested, why do we see
42:39
Speaker 6: what life's like in the first thirty days? And that
42:42
Speaker 6: turned into what are we? Uh, why don't I check
42:45
Speaker 6: in with Fred from time to time over the course
42:47
Speaker 6: of a year, and and Fred can kind of fill
42:51
Speaker 6: in a lot of this stuff, but a lot of
42:53
Speaker 6: it was, you know, what what do you do to survive?
42:56
Speaker 6: You need you need housing, you need shelter, and you
42:59
Speaker 6: need some income to provide that shelter and food. Just
43:02
Speaker 6: the base bear basics of survival. And that was what
43:07
Speaker 6: you know, Fred and I would kind of meet up
43:08
Speaker 6: and he would very graciously let me tag along with
43:11
Speaker 6: him as he talked to people about filling out job
43:16
Speaker 6: applications and trying to work on a resume, and watched
43:20
Speaker 6: him move from one apartment to another apartment, and I think,
43:24
Speaker 6: you know, maybe Fred, you talk a little bit about
43:26
Speaker 6: what those experiences.
43:27
Speaker 1: Not really apartment, it's a room, but yeah, it's been
43:34
Speaker 1: kind of challenging when you've been in prison. What I
43:37
Speaker 1: long Obviously, technology has changed, and technology definitely has changed
43:41
Speaker 1: to the point where it's all new to me. I
43:44
Speaker 1: often make this phrase, It's like I've been reborn again
43:48
Speaker 1: and I have to learn everything all over again, including technology. So,
43:52
Speaker 1: and even how do you fill out job applications now?
43:55
Speaker 1: It's different compared to when I was back in the
43:58
Speaker 1: seventies and stuff. A lot of stuff you got to
44:01
Speaker 1: fill out online now, as far as pretty much everything,
44:04
Speaker 1: housing application, job applications, everything. So the challenge of learning
44:09
Speaker 1: the technology is still the challenge. I'm still I know
44:15
Speaker 1: a little bit, but there's a whole lot more that
44:17
Speaker 1: I need to learn. And that's been kind of frustrating
44:21
Speaker 1: and exciting at the same time and aggravating. But at
44:27
Speaker 1: the same time, I've been reminding myself that hopefully, eventually
44:30
Speaker 1: I get there. I just need to be patient with myself.
44:34
Speaker 1: But trying to survive out here when you've been in prison,
44:38
Speaker 1: that law, it's kind of difficult. Even maintaining a job.
44:48
Speaker 1: It's been kind of challenging. I'm still dealing with that.
44:52
Speaker 5: Oh, what what part of Massachusetts are you living in now? Fred?
44:57
Speaker 1: I'm living in Lowell, Massachusetts.
44:58
Speaker 5: So that's right by Boston, right.
45:02
Speaker 1: It's not it's it's it's by Boston, but I wouldn't
45:05
Speaker 1: call it right by. It's some distance, yes, but it
45:09
Speaker 1: is by.
45:09
Speaker 6: Boston, about an hour north of Boston.
45:11
Speaker 5: Okay. Well wow.
45:13
Speaker 1: And when you don't drive, that's another thing. I really
45:17
Speaker 1: I haven't really started driving yet. And when you when
45:22
Speaker 1: you don't know how to drive, you're very limited. So
45:26
Speaker 1: I'm sort of restricted to a certain area and low
45:30
Speaker 1: and that's been kind of challenging. The puppet transportation here
45:33
Speaker 1: is not that great. It shuts down at seven o'clock
45:35
Speaker 1: in the evening, and that's been an issue that I
45:39
Speaker 1: still struggle with today. So I need to learn how
45:44
Speaker 1: to drive in order to get more access to resources, jobs, housing,
45:50
Speaker 1: just to get around, I need to learn how to drive.
45:52
Speaker 1: And people been offering their help, and I've even been
45:56
Speaker 1: thinking about going through driving school. But it's just the
46:01
Speaker 1: thought of it is fine. It's just putting an action is,
46:04
Speaker 1: you know, trying to figure out when the right time is.
46:07
Speaker 1: Maybe there is no right time. I just need to
46:09
Speaker 1: just jump into it and do it. But all that's
46:12
Speaker 1: been kind of challenging to me. To figure out what's important,
46:15
Speaker 1: what's not important, trying to prioritize things. That's been a
46:20
Speaker 1: big issue.
46:21
Speaker 5: And I can tell just from the way you know
46:24
Speaker 5: you are and the way that you've dealt with this
46:26
Speaker 5: situation that I think anybody I know accept the exounre
46:31
Speaker 5: reason that I know actually would have crumbled under the
46:34
Speaker 5: weight of this unreal ordeal. So I know you're going
46:42
Speaker 5: to be successful, but I think all of us just
46:44
Speaker 5: need a little boost every once in a while. So
46:46
Speaker 5: I'm happy to say that that's something I'm going to
46:49
Speaker 5: be able to to provide. So I do want to
46:55
Speaker 5: I want to ask you also, what if you can
46:59
Speaker 5: think of it, what its been your happiest moment since
47:02
Speaker 5: you got out. It's interesting I'm seeing I'm looking at
47:05
Speaker 5: a picture right now of you with the with the dibbles,
47:09
Speaker 5: with Dorin and Jackie. It's really sort of a funny picture.
47:13
Speaker 5: I mean, you have this giant smile on your face
47:15
Speaker 5: and the glasses on and they, you know, they're obviously
47:20
Speaker 5: smiling too, but I mean they're really white, these people are.
47:24
Speaker 5: You know, It's really just an interesting, you know, photograph
47:29
Speaker 5: because it's just such an unusual, uh you know, combination
47:37
Speaker 5: of different backgrounds. But there's a lot of humanity in that, right,
47:41
Speaker 5: and there's a lot of beauty it. There's a lot
47:43
Speaker 5: of beauty in it. So, I mean, aside from the
47:46
Speaker 5: moment when you first stepped out, which must have been
47:49
Speaker 5: as much of a shock as anything else, what's been
47:53
Speaker 5: your happiest memory since in the fifteen sixteen months since
47:57
Speaker 5: you got out.
47:58
Speaker 1: Well, I had a few vision my mother's grave that
48:02
Speaker 1: was very happy. But I would say right now, the skydiving.
48:10
Speaker 5: Who you went skydiving?
48:14
Speaker 1: I went skydiving twice?
48:16
Speaker 5: Wow?
48:17
Speaker 1: And I would say that. I said that because some
48:20
Speaker 1: guys that I was in prison with that end up
48:23
Speaker 1: passing away. In prison often, you know, we often talked
48:27
Speaker 1: about skydiving, and we watched some programs on Double GBH
48:33
Speaker 1: about skydiving and stuff like that, and we said to
48:36
Speaker 1: ourselves that they looked a lot of fun, you know,
48:37
Speaker 1: looked like fun, and I looked like the people was
48:40
Speaker 1: enjoying themselves. So when I went skydiving, I was sort
48:43
Speaker 1: of like dedicating that moment to them because they sort
48:46
Speaker 1: of helped me change who I was as a person.
48:49
Speaker 1: They sort of helped me get back into my case
48:52
Speaker 1: and make me stay focused on that. So when I
48:58
Speaker 1: skydived the first time, it was just to honor them
49:02
Speaker 1: and for me to thank them and to show respect
49:05
Speaker 1: for them for what they did for me, because I
49:09
Speaker 1: at that time and I still do now, I consider
49:11
Speaker 1: myself very lucky. So that was a very special moment
49:18
Speaker 1: the first time and the second time too because the
49:21
Speaker 1: second time when I went skydiving, I went with a
49:24
Speaker 1: lot of its honorary people, people that was in my
49:28
Speaker 1: somewhat in my situation. We all had our individual cases
49:32
Speaker 1: that end up that we end up in prison for,
49:35
Speaker 1: but we all was innocent, and so it was kind
49:39
Speaker 1: of special to be with them that way. I felt,
49:42
Speaker 1: you know, that I was surrounded by people who actually
49:44
Speaker 1: knew what I was going through, and they didn't have
49:48
Speaker 1: no problem sharing what they was going through, what they
49:52
Speaker 1: went through in prison, and what they're dealing with now
49:55
Speaker 1: out here that you be shortage to share our experience
49:58
Speaker 1: and share their knowledge and help you each other. So
50:01
Speaker 1: that was kind of special. And also when I jump
50:06
Speaker 1: out the plane the second time, it's sort of reminded
50:10
Speaker 1: me of life, like when you jump out the plane,
50:13
Speaker 1: there is no turning back. You came to say, well,
50:15
Speaker 1: I changed my mind. I want to go back. Once
50:18
Speaker 1: you jump out the plane, you and the elements, and
50:23
Speaker 1: so you got to face whatever there whatever fear you have,
50:27
Speaker 1: whatever there is, you got to face that. And it
50:29
Speaker 1: sort of reminds me about my life right now. Whatever
50:33
Speaker 1: it is in life that I'm uncomfortable with, I have
50:36
Speaker 1: fear about, I have to try to face it and
50:38
Speaker 1: try to do the best I can. So to answer
50:41
Speaker 1: your question, the skydiving was the most important thing to me.
50:47
Speaker 5: Well, that's an incredible story and very moving and very
50:52
Speaker 5: just amazing to think about. But I will say this,
50:55
Speaker 5: if you can jump out of a plane, you can
50:59
Speaker 5: definitely drive a car. And I'm gonna make you a
51:03
Speaker 5: deal right here in front of however many one hundred
51:06
Speaker 5: thousand people listening to this show. If you'll take your
51:08
Speaker 5: driver's course, wrongful conviction will get you a car. So
51:14
Speaker 5: that'll be our deal. You got to go make sure
51:17
Speaker 5: you can drive it. But if you can do it,
51:19
Speaker 5: we'll get you a car, all right. And then then
51:21
Speaker 5: then me and Chris are coming and we're going to
51:23
Speaker 5: take a ride with you. So because we're you jump
51:26
Speaker 5: out of a plan, I'll get on the car with you.
51:28
Speaker 5: Behind a wheel, no problem.
51:30
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, okay.
51:32
Speaker 5: All right, we got a deal. We got a deal.
51:34
Speaker 5: We have one hundred thousand witnesses, so there you go.
51:37
Speaker 5: Well you know it's it's it's amazing, Fred, you know that.
51:42
Speaker 5: And I am going to put you.
51:45
Speaker 1: To say something. It only take one witnesses to get
51:48
Speaker 1: someone convicted, never mind one hundred thousand.
51:50
Speaker 5: Right, Well, there you go. So we have a tradition
51:54
Speaker 5: here on wrongful conviction, which is my favorite part of
51:58
Speaker 5: the show. I think it's everybody's favorite part of the show,
52:00
Speaker 5: which is that at the end of the show, which
52:03
Speaker 5: is now, I always, of course thank both of you,
52:09
Speaker 5: Chris and Fred for being here and sharing your your
52:14
Speaker 5: story and your wisdom Chris and experience. So I'm thanking
52:20
Speaker 5: you now. And then also at the end of the show,
52:24
Speaker 5: the featured part is where I get to stop talking
52:28
Speaker 5: and do all the listening. And how this works is
52:32
Speaker 5: I just turned the microphone over to you for any
52:35
Speaker 5: closing thoughts that you have, if you have any, no pressure,
52:40
Speaker 5: but the microphone is yours, so let's start with you. Chris,
52:46
Speaker 5: anything any last words.
52:47
Speaker 6: Well as always, like it's really fascinating for me to
52:52
Speaker 6: listen to Fred and was a real privilege as a
52:56
Speaker 6: reporter to get to, you know, spend time with him,
53:00
Speaker 6: have work in a place, and have editors that saw
53:03
Speaker 6: how important that was to do it. And it's again,
53:09
Speaker 6: I think Fred just went through something really awful and
53:14
Speaker 6: has these amazing insights about what his experience was. And
53:19
Speaker 6: it's not surprising that he drew the kind of support
53:22
Speaker 6: to him that he did because again he's able to
53:25
Speaker 6: kind of reflect and share. He has a great sense
53:28
Speaker 6: of humor, and it's it's kind of brings me back
53:32
Speaker 6: to what it was like talking with him over these
53:34
Speaker 6: last many months. So happy to be here again.
53:38
Speaker 5: Chris Barrell, thank you again for being here on Wrongful Conviction.
53:42
Speaker 5: And now over to you Fred for your last words
53:46
Speaker 5: and thoughts.
53:47
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for the opportunity to speak
53:51
Speaker 1: on the podcast, and I want to thank Chris Barell
53:55
Speaker 1: for bugging me to do this. I'm just choking, but
54:00
Speaker 1: who come to me in the beginning when I first
54:03
Speaker 1: got out and presented the opportunity for him to follow
54:08
Speaker 1: me and talk about the person's life after the cameras
54:12
Speaker 1: go away. I'm sort of glad that he did that
54:16
Speaker 1: because it made me stay true to who I was,
54:20
Speaker 1: and it made me more focused about my situation and
54:24
Speaker 1: at the same time, it brought me out of my shell,
54:27
Speaker 1: so to speak, too. And I want to say that
54:32
Speaker 1: people sometimes ask me about why am I not bitter
54:38
Speaker 1: about my situation. Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely upset
54:43
Speaker 1: about what happened to me. But at the same time,
54:45
Speaker 1: it's sort of made me aware of who I was
54:49
Speaker 1: at that time as a person, and it made me
54:51
Speaker 1: change who I was to who I am in right
54:54
Speaker 1: now today. And I must say I liked the person
54:58
Speaker 1: I become today. I didn't like myself back then, and
55:02
Speaker 1: it made me think about those things. So in the
55:07
Speaker 1: process of sharing my story with Chris, it sort of
55:11
Speaker 1: made me realize that too. So I thank him for
55:14
Speaker 1: the opportunity to make me aware of that. And I
55:19
Speaker 1: won't thank my attorneys Lisa Kavanaugh and Jeffrey Harris, and
55:24
Speaker 1: my attorney who passed away, Emanuel Howard. I want to
55:28
Speaker 1: thank all three them for helping me get to where
55:31
Speaker 1: I'm at today, and my supporters too, the Debbil's Fred Smiles.
55:38
Speaker 1: So many people, so many people help me. I won't
55:41
Speaker 1: thank everybody for that.
55:43
Speaker 5: Wow. Yeah, it just took me a minute to collect myself,
55:47
Speaker 5: but well, once again you've been listening to Wrongful Conviction
55:53
Speaker 5: today's episode featuring investigative journalist Chris Barrell and Fred Play,
55:59
Speaker 5: exonerated after thirty eight years in prison for a murder
56:02
Speaker 5: he didn't commit. Gentlemen, thank you again for being on
56:05
Speaker 5: the show. And I look forward to to taking a
56:11
Speaker 5: ride through Lowell with the with the music blast and loud,
56:16
Speaker 5: I hope with you two guys, and maybe we'll go
56:19
Speaker 5: and pick up the dibbles along the way. So and
56:22
Speaker 5: that's a and that's a that's a bet. So thanks
56:26
Speaker 5: again and we'll keep the conversation moving.
56:30
Speaker 1: Thank you, Okay, I appreciate it very much.
56:33
Speaker 5: Thanks Fred, don't forget to give us a fantastic review.
56:48
Speaker 5: Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm
56:51
Speaker 5: a proud donor to the NSIS project, and I really
56:54
Speaker 5: hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause
56:57
Speaker 5: and helping to prevent future wrongful convey Go to andisonsproject
57:01
Speaker 5: dot org to learn how to donate and get involved.
57:04
Speaker 5: I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and
57:07
Speaker 5: Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is by three
57:10
Speaker 5: Time Oscar nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow
57:13
Speaker 5: us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at
57:17
Speaker 5: brown Ful Conviction podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is
57:21
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57:24
Speaker 5: Signal Company Number one