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Deep Red (Profondo Rosso) · The Next Reel Film Podcast

• 0:04
  Pete Wright: I'm Pete Wright.
• 0:06
  Andy Nelson: And I'm Andy Nelson.
• 0:07
  Pete Wright: Welcome to the next reel when the movie ends.
• 0:10
  Andy Nelson: Our conversation begins.
• 0:13
  Pete Wright: Deep Red is over.
• 0:14
  Gianna Gianna, there's someone in the house absolutely trying to kill me. You know? Was that a good read?
• 0:24
  Andy Nelson: You should have been in the movie.
• 0:25
  Pete Wright: I should have been in the movie. I practically was. Alright, Andy. We're talking about deep red. We're talking this is this is our first Jallo on this show proper.
• 0:37
  Is that right?
• 0:38
  Andy Nelson: That's correct. Yeah. I talked about Italian giallo films over on CinemaScope, where I looked at this film and nine others and dug deep into the that whole subgenre of these really incredibly bloody and fun Italian movies. So great time on that one.
• 0:59
  Pete Wright: I feel like the conversation could be the same as our conversation on spaghetti westerns with just more blood. Like, a lot of the thing, the way they made these these movies seems very familiar to me with just a
• 1:14
  Andy Nelson: lot more blood. A lot more blood. Certainly. Yeah. I mean, Italian giallo films are giallo means yellow, and it it's named that way because of these original books that these these had been written back, I think, in Italy back in the, like, twenties, thirties, and they had a yellow cover.
• 1:34
  And they were all these like dark crime thrillers. And so that was the idea. And they have like masked killers. Really? They have like these they're always wearing these black leather gloves and yeah.
• 1:46
  It was they were very kind of pulpy crime mystery novels. And it like, even to the point where Agatha Christie novels, when they would bring those over to Italy, they would publish them with a yellow cover because that was kind of the whole thing. And so these giallo films really kind of are very much slasher. They I mean, they kind of went darker and bloodier, slasher, thriller, psychological horror. Sometimes we're getting into sexploitation.
• 2:13
  Sometimes supernatural, but there's a disagreement among people who track the genre if like once we get into something like Suspiria with witches, is that Jallo or have we gone to somewhat something completely different? So and so, yeah, this as we're celebrating our fiftieth anniversary of these films, these golden jubilees, we're looking at this film because Dario Argento's Deep Red or Profundo Rosso certainly is one that has stood the test of time as a great example of this particular subgenre.
• 2:45
  Pete Wright: Because it stood the test of time. I I there are people who say this is the quintessential example of this Jallo film.
• 2:51
  Andy Nelson: Right.
• 2:51
  Pete Wright: You know? I don't know what from nothing. But is that I mean, does that line up?
• 2:55
  Andy Nelson: It definitely lines up. We're getting all of the expected tropes. Like, we're getting the mystery. We're getting the, you know, all of the different gruesome murders throughout. We're getting the, again, the figure in kind of the masked outfit, extreme close ups of those leather gloves getting zipped on.
• 3:15
  Oh, so many close ups. Childhood trauma. Like, there's a lot of stuff going on in this particular story that absolutely makes this stand out as and I mean, it also happened to come out, like, right in the height of this period where giallo films were all the rage over in Italy. And so this one just, like, hit at a that perfect time where it just was like, yes. This is exactly what we wanna see in these films.
• 3:41
  Pete Wright: Can you give us just a a brief is it a tutorial? No. You learned a lot during your conversations over on CinemaScope. And I would would like just a sense of how you have learned to approach these movies as films. Like, what are what are you looking for?
• 4:02
  What are the the tropes besides, like, zippy gloves? But in terms of thematic analysis, What do do are are are the Jallo films do they have a sort of consistent approach that we need to be aware of? Are there are there you know, this one has a lot to do with identity and sort of fragmented memory. Are we looking at those sorts of things? This is this is masculinity in crisis too.
• 4:25
  Right? I mean, there that that seems like a another one that that they're sort of poking at. Childhood domestic violence, like, are are are they consistent?
• 4:35
  Andy Nelson: There's definitely a lot of those sorts of elements. I mean, there you know, it's like anything. There are always gonna be differences and variations. But, I mean, at the core of it, it is generally a murder mystery thriller often without the cops doing the detective work. We're getting somebody else who is somehow involved or connected or is being stalked or whatever, who decides to take it upon themselves to do it.
• 5:01
  Again, very
• 5:02
  Pete Wright: British jazz pianists? Is that consistent?
• 5:05
  Andy Nelson: Are there always British jazz pianists? Not always. Not always. Again, very bloody. The camerawork is often really creative in the Jallo films.
• 5:16
  Like, they have a lot of fun with extreme close ups and just playing with these different angles and and a lot of unique things. Often, the people who are dying you don't get that so much in this one, but something like Blood and Black Lace, often the people who are getting killed are very beautiful women. And so that's something that that happens less in this one, but it does happen more often. The often you'll get like I said, you're not necessarily getting the cops who are doing the detective work, but it's somebody who's in a lot of them, it's more of somebody who's traveling through or something and then kinds of end up getting involved. Let's see what else.
• 5:59
  I mean, again, it's a mystery story, so we're not getting the reveal until the end. I think the thing is because it is kind of just a mystery story, it's also just following a lot of the tropes of what we get in the in other mysteries. Right? We're just getting like the setup. We're getting red herrings.
• 6:18
  We're getting getting close people getting information, and then either getting killed or not being able to pass on that information. Eventually, we get it kind of get the big reveal. Sometimes there's a twist to that reveal, which we definitely have here in this film. So the way to watch it again, and you've already mentioned the kind of that loose connection to spaghetti westerns only in the sense that when Italy these Italian filmmakers take these sorts of stories on, they're much bigger. And you've got to kind of walk into it expecting kind of over the top performances and everything's kind of a little more it just plays in kind of a broader scope than you would get, you know.
• 7:04
  And so and, you know, some of that makes sense with, you know, Argento himself having had a background in some of the spaghetti westerns. I I can't remember how much it came up in our conversation. But when we discussed some of Sergio Leone's films, you know, Argento certainly was involved in working on the stories with with Leone. And so, so, yeah, it's just I I think when you walk into these films thinking about it that way, I think, is probably going to help you kind of get kind of connect with the the vibe that they're they're putting forth. One of the things
• 7:40
  Pete Wright: that this movie celebrates is the POV of the killer. Right? It has some real black Christmas vibes to it. And I is is that a thing that is a staple of Argento that becomes sort of a a trademark of Argento or a trademark of Giallo more broadly?
• 7:59
  Andy Nelson: I think you could say it's it's definitely a a Giallo thing, you know, keeping the identity secret of our killer and playing it with with it that way. And I think some of the fun Argento moments are things like the knife cam, like when we have the knife coming down to go through a man's throat. But it's and and you can see where somebody like Sam Raimi would would latch on to these ideas. It feels like the knife is attached to the camera and it because the camera is following the knife as it comes down and plunges into his throat. Like and it's not like a loose follow.
• 8:39
  It's like literally attached. Like that knife doesn't move at all as it comes down. Oh, yeah. So you see a lot of those sorts of playful things that that Argento's bringing to the table with his kind of creative camera work, the designs that he does with his cinematographer. Here, it's Luigi Kuveler.
• 8:57
  I don't know if I'm saying the last name right, but anyway. That trick,
• 9:01
  Pete Wright: the the knife attached to the camera trick. I I love that trick, and it made me think horribly of the Pepsi commercial that's all the rage in the theatrical preshows right now. Have you seen this where it's the Pepsi can and there's all kinds of stuff going on around it? And the Pepsi like, the scene is moving. It made me think of this movie.
• 9:19
  I think that Pepsi can is a Giallo commercial. I clearly don't
• 9:25
  Andy Nelson: we're we're not getting that particular Pepsi ad in our theaters. Oh, Andy, you are you're worse for it. Maybe it's because I'm we're Coke. Oh, you're Coke you're a
• 9:34
  Pete Wright: you're a Coke people. Okay. Yeah. Alright. Well, I I guess the question I have for you is what do you think I thought of this movie?
• 9:42
  Andy Nelson: That's a good question because I don't think that you've really dug into giallo films before. No. Yeah. But although I know you've seen Italian, a lot of these sorts of types of Italians, you might have seen Suspiria. I can't remember if you've seen sus the original Suspiria.
• 9:58
  Pete Wright: Yes. I have watched Suspiria.
• 10:00
  Andy Nelson: Okay.
• 10:00
  Pete Wright: It was shortly after you and Steve did the Goblin concert watch, the
• 10:05
  Andy Nelson: live Yeah. Right.
• 10:06
  Pete Wright: Show watch.
• 10:07
  Andy Nelson: It's so much fun.
• 10:08
  Pete Wright: Yeah. And I I felt I felt like I was left out and that I needed to be a part of it in some way. So I sat down, I watched that movie.
• 10:15
  Andy Nelson: Okay.
• 10:15
  Pete Wright: Okay. Crazy. So that's it, though. I think that's really it. And and I was not watching it from the perspective of, you know, what is a Giallo film?
• 10:24
  I certainly don't have that experience with
• 10:25
  Andy Nelson: It was but at least that's an Argento film that you've seen. Yes. Which which sounds like it might is that would you say that can you say for sure, is that the only Dario Argento film you've seen?
• 10:38
  Pete Wright: I believe it is. Yes. I can say that with guarded confidence.
• 10:41
  Andy Nelson: Okay.
• 10:42
  Pete Wright: Okay. That that's the only
• 10:43
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. So then knowing that, I think that you're you probably enjoyed this, but probably I don't know. I I'm wondering if you thought it was a little big and a little over the top. I
• 11:00
  Pete Wright: I okay. Let I'll start by saying, spoiler, in my Letterbox review, this movie gets a heart. It is a big heart.
• 11:09
  Andy Nelson: Right? Okay.
• 11:10
  Pete Wright: I really enjoyed my time with the movie. I thought it was bonkers. And there are so many opportunities to come out of the movie and say, what the hell are they doing with this right now? Right? Like, there's just a lot of that.
• 11:25
  But I really I had a blast with it. Like, I had a I had a ball. I did not find the resolution of the mystery satisfying. I didn't like that. I felt like that was out of the blue.
• 11:40
  And I wonder if that's just I need to loosen up on my criticism of of mysteries that don't resolve in a fashion tidy enough to be satisfying. The truth is I didn't see how the story connected to mom. Although for character economy, of course, it was probably I should have called it his mom all along. Like, in hindsight, it it's a I guess it was a big a big flag on the field when they introduced that wackadoo lady that she would have something to do with it. Why is she even in the movie if she's not, like, principal to the resolution?
• 12:20
  But I did not find that satisfying. Where do you stand on just the mystery?
• 12:24
  Andy Nelson: I I think that in in many ways, you'll probably end up finding that with a lot of giallo films as well, where the mystery is I mean, I don't wanna call it like Scooby Doo ish, but they end up being like No.
• 12:38
  Pete Wright: You could.
• 12:38
  Andy Nelson: You you could. You could. We're not getting masks pulled off or anything like that. But but there is a a a sense of a structure with the mystery where it's it's put together just to resolve everything. Yet it's not necessarily like building to something that is as like, there's not necessarily like a thematic satisfaction.
• 13:03
  It's just kind of like we're just gonna get an ending and we're just gonna see, oh, these are the people who did it. And you kind of get some loose reasons why. And I don't know. I I have found that in in many ways, you just kind of like go along with it because that's just kind of like, that's the idea they had. Oh, what if it's this?
• 13:22
  And what if she's involved too? And, you know, like, and and and so we kind of end up with that sort of situation. And so, yeah, I I mean, I don't know if it necessarily if you want to couch your reactions to all mysteries or if it's just something that when it comes to watching Jalo films, wanna go, okay. We're just gonna kind of get some of this sort of mystery.
• 13:47
  Pete Wright: Well and I'm I'm hot under the collar a little bit because we just watched the new release on Netflix of the Thursday Murder Club. So I'm already mad about that mystery. Like, I felt like that mystery had a huge opportunity to do it to do it well, and I don't think it it it played very well. So I came into this thinking, oh, a murder mystery, Italian classic fifty year old Italian murder mystery. This is gonna be great.
• 14:10
  And it it was not great. It's okay because so much of the rest of the movie is really gross and fun. And I actually found, like, it you say Scooby Doo, like, the thing about the Scooby Doo, like, the the team and the mystery machine is they really have no business solving crime and and solving mysteries, and neither does our British jazz pianist. So on that, this movie is exactly like Scooby Doo and brilliantly so. Like, the fact that this handsome British guy has taken it on himself to figure out what's going on is delightful.
• 14:50
  Like, I I think it's the idea is crazy and fun. And the cast of characters that sort of revolve around him are equally bonkers. His drunk friend whose mother is problematic. Like, I actually found all of those the sort of orbital cast around him was was great. I do wanna say that I watched, I think the same version you watched, which was the dubbed the shorter dubbed version.
• 15:20
  Right? Correct. Yeah. Yeah. I I was doing a little bit of looking up, what the kids call research, on the differences between the two versions of the film having not seen the longer Italian version.
• 15:33
  Apparently, there are extensive scenes between Marcus and Gianna that develop their relationship and add tonal variety, including subtle feminist commentary. I wonder what that would be like. The these scenes are largely cut from the international version, making Gianna seem more like comic relief than a central figure. That was my experience too.
• 15:55
  Andy Nelson: And there's definitely some more graphic violence that also gets cut. So, but yeah.
• 16:00
  Pete Wright: Although, it it seems like most of the violence is intact. Like, if they were cutting just for violence
• 16:08
  Andy Nelson: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
• 16:08
  Pete Wright: It seems like there's a lot of stuff in the international version that would have been cut.
• 16:12
  Andy Nelson: I I think that the the violence that they had cut was I think there had been like a like a a dog fight sort of thing that seemed too violent at the time and they had cut that. And then later, they reevaluated it and said that it yeah. You can just see that these dogs are actually just playing. They're not actually trying to kill each other. I think that there was more perhaps with that lizard that the little girl is torturing that we get.
• 16:42
  So I think that that's the sort of violence that was cut. I think kind of the actual potential real animal violence.
• 16:50
  Pete Wright: The most importantly, it sounds like the ending is intact. Like, the structure of the climax is is intact. Although the Italian version apparently, quote, lets moments breathe more slowly with longer pauses and more emphasis on Marcus's psychological unraveling while the international cut moves quickly to the end. But substantively, it sounds the same.
• 17:16
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. So I think that's largely what we're getting. Although, I'd love to just see the original Italian version just to kind of like have a handle on like what has changed so I can get a sense as to how I feel about the two versions. It does sound like both you and I were too cheap because it is available. You buy you could buy
• 17:35
  Pete Wright: it on Apple TV and
• 17:37
  Andy Nelson: Oh, can you? Because when I looked on Apple, it showed as the the hour forty four minute version.
• 17:44
  Pete Wright: I didn't see an option in there. When you click on purchase, it shows you you're getting two versions Oh. When you buy this. When you rent it, you actually have to choose which version you want, but they don't show you a length in the choose window. It's by poster.
• 18:02
  And I rented it Wow. And I chose wrongly. Interesting. Interesting.
• 18:07
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. It was just a straight up lottery. Wow. I just I just, you know, checked it out from my library and used that version. And all of the versions that I found that were streaming for free were all the hour forty four version.
• 18:23
  So and that's interesting that I I I guess I never went far enough into Apple to look at it. I just looked to see, like, I if it had said on the page when I hit, you know, view on Apple, if it had said two versions, like, all I saw was just hour forty four, you know, purchase or buy, and it didn't even give me that option. So I guess I had to take an extra step.
• 18:45
  Pete Wright: So that's annoying. Yeah. You gotta click through. And the purchase one, you actually get both versions. Yeah.
• 18:51
  You don't have to choose. When you rent, you have to choose which one. Yeah. So Weird. That's a bummer.
• 18:56
  Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I've been responding a lot. You tell me what you where you would like to start when you're talking about this movie.
• 19:04
  Andy Nelson: I I wanna dig into this. We've talked a lot about kind of just like the the aesthetic of the film, but I wanted to kind of get your read it. Because I mean, you've kind of talked a little bit about how you enjoyed it. You thought it was bonkers, all of that. But I I wanna get your sense of how you felt about really kind of this visual language that Argento was using.
• 19:25
  You know, we've got some extreme extreme close ups of, like, the tape player when he's when the killer is playing the the cassette of that creepy children's song. Right? Like super super extreme close ups. Same thing of the zipper. We've got extreme close ups of all these little children toy memorabilia things that are just kind of moments like that.
• 19:47
  And likewise, just kind of the overall look at everything. And then we can also throw in the kills if you wanna do that. But I just before we get to the kills, I just wanted to get your sense of how how that kind of the visual storytelling style of this, if that lent to kind of the bonkers feel for you or or just how it played?
• 20:08
  Pete Wright: Yeah. So the sort of tableau is surreal and, I I guess, artistic painterly. I I think he makes good on just natural locations, which add a lot to the kind of Baroque feel of the film and how everybody is everybody operating in the scene feels out of place. Right? It's just like modernity implanted in history, which is an awesome, like, slight of hand that you get from shooting where they were shooting.
• 20:40
  But when they then take the camera, and I mean, you say they're extreme close ups. They're extreme close ups, but extreme close ups that put you inside what feels like a gigantic universe. Like, we're traipsing around where the camera is moving inside of these kind of things. It makes everything feels really big, and I think it goes toward that sense of being out of place. It's really jarring that how they end up using using the camera here.
• 21:13
  And, it feels very personal. It feels like it's they're they're it does a a weirdly able job of putting me in this wackadoo universe that I found unsettling and and really compelling. Like, was I was deeply invested in the universe that they were creating beyond any of the murders and and all of that stuff. I love the idea of putting me so intimately close to objects and and, you know, items of of the Anthropocene, sort of era.
• 21:50
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. There's, a couple moments that that really just stick in my head. One is when we get a it's a shot of a record being played. And it's like this extreme close-up of the head and the needle on the record. But it's like the camera is also, like, panning around it at such an extreme close position.
• 22:13
  And I was just, like, kind of mesmerized by how they had that camera move integrated into that entire thing. It was Yes. It was incredibly slick.
• 22:22
  Pete Wright: And it it made it's like, I the trick of the of the eye that they're pulling here is that it makes me think that they actually built a giant record player. Right? It feels like this is all miniature stuff. Right. That Yeah.
• 22:36
  You know? It's it's wild. Or scaling sets. Like they built a giant human sized record player. It's really fascinating what they get away with because of these tricks.
• 22:46
  Andy Nelson: The other thing that I find works incredibly well is when the killer, we cut to several times, putting on black eyeliner around the eyes. And it's done in such a way that it just feels violent. Like it feels like it feels like like damage is being done. The the way that it's being put on is aggressive and and heavy and dark and high contrast. And you're just getting this done in a way where it just it's off putting, and it really does add to that sense of horror.
• 23:25
  I just it's so effective. I love all of those eye close ups that we get throughout the film.
• 23:31
  Pete Wright: Yeah. It pulls the tissue around the eye in, again, a very disquieting way. Yeah. I don't I don't any eye stuff is tough for me.
• 23:42
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. It's not quite eye trauma because it's just it's eyeliner, but it's boring. It's bordering on That's eye exactly right. Yeah.
• 23:52
  Okay. So let's now jump into the actual kills because I think adding to the the visual language of the story, it's a murder mystery. But as you'll see in the Italian Giallo films, they tend to just jump into the incredibly gruesome, which you don't always get in like an Agatha Christie sort of thing. Like, this is pretty bloody stuff, you know. Aside from our first murder, when when the the psychic gets killed and you get that as he pulls her out of the window and like the giant chunk of glass is still sticking out of her throat, so there's blood everywhere there.
• 24:27
  Then we get the the the boiling the woman's face in the scalding water. That that would be the death of Amanda Rigetti.
• 24:36
  Pete Wright: Yep. Yep. Yep. Which is tough.
• 24:40
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Yeah.
• 24:41
  Pete Wright: The blistering skin. Oh. Yeah. This one I mean, here we go. This is the this is just violence that is prolonged and exaggerated and absolutely artistic in its theatrical brutality.
• 24:54
  This is I I mean, it's it's elegant. It is as elegant brutality as the giant record player that we're running on. But as much as the the visuals are incredible, so is the sound. Like, you hear everything when her face is being smashed into those tiles. Like, you hear bones crunch and water boil, and all of these things are happening.
• 25:17
  You know, at the same time, it is it's sensory overload. Carlo Rombaldi, who
• 25:23
  Andy Nelson: I mean, we've talked about back, like, when we did ET, is a master special effects wizard. And you can see why Hollywood latched on to pulling him in and especially Spielberg with like Close Encounters and and this. And he also worked on Alien and a number of just big Hollywood projects. But you can see why they grabbed him after seeing like these sorts of effects. Like that blistering effect when she is laying on the tile and just looking at her face.
• 25:51
  I mean, really it it was pretty awful. It is just completely horrifying. Like, one one, getting drowned is already awful. But two, getting drowned in scalding hot water just like adds a level to it that you just don't want it to be taken to. It's just horrifying.
• 26:09
  Pete Wright: It's sous vide. It's so Oh, yeah. Yeah. So that's rough. But, you know, I I think the first death of Helga Oman, right, like, that's that's that's not easy the way she is she falls on the glass.
• 26:30
  It's just it doesn't compare to the bathroom
• 26:34
  Andy Nelson: No. Sequence. But how does it compare, Pete, to the death of a professor our dear professor Giordani? This one I was thinking about you during this one because there's so
• 26:45
  Pete Wright: much Why?
• 26:45
  Andy Nelson: Dental trauma. The idea of it is so well, one, I just also wanna bring up the fact that we have one I mean, one of the creepiest dolls in cinema that I mean, it surprises me every time I watch this because I know it's coming, but just the way that it comes out is just it's so off putting and wrong and creepy in every way.
• 27:09
  Pete Wright: I don't understand. That that was the thing. The doll runs across the room, but it's it's a a mechanical doll. How big is the doll? Like, the sense of scale.
• 27:17
  It happened so fast. It's like
• 27:18
  Andy Nelson: half a person. It's like
• 27:19
  Pete Wright: It's half a person. Right? Like, it's a big doll. And then he is killed. The problem is this is, like, the so far the most this is bad.
• 27:29
  This is right up there with American History X. This is and American History X is because of that curb stomping that I don't I won't watch that movie again. Right? Like, it's horrible. And this is right there.
• 27:41
  And it's just again and again smashing his face into the edge of the desk and his teeth, like mouth open, smashing against the corner. I don't wanna talk about it. Yeah. It's It's bad. Yeah.
• 27:54
  It's really bad.
• 27:55
  Andy Nelson: It starts off at the hearth. He does it in the hearth and then brings him over to the table. And and then after all of that, first getting traumatized by a creepy doll, then getting his teeth bashed in like several times, then he gets stabbed through the throat. That's when we get that fantastic knife cam as it comes down onto his throat and drives it right through the table. By the mantle.
• 28:15
  Yeah.
• 28:15
  Pete Wright: And the lighting is beautiful against this. Again, like, that's a real showcase of the artistic cinematography of these kills. Like, it just it it weirdly I mean, it's beautiful.
• 28:29
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. It's it's stunning the way that they shoot all this stuff. They make it just gruesome and fun and over the top, and they don't like cut away. Like, we're seeing this stuff. And then our last kill is when when the killer gets caught in the elevator and decapitated with her own necklace.
• 28:47
  Pete Wright: By her own necklace? Have you ever seen a necklace quite sturdy enough to do that? I mean, I've never tried.
• 28:55
  Andy Nelson: I I But it's the the
• 28:56
  Pete Wright: charm gets caught in the grate of the necklace. It's an old fashioned elevator, the open side elevator with just the grates. And it the charm gets caught and pulls her up, and then her own chain completely decapitates her. Yeah. It's gruesome.
• 29:12
  Andy Nelson: That is one hell of a necklace. Like, it is like Yeah. Not only is it, strong, but apparently also sharp enough to just, like, rip right through everything.
• 29:23
  Pete Wright: Through bone. I mean, I guess it gets a disc in the neck and pops that disc and severs those nerves. Maybe it's not quite I mean, if you wanna think through it.
• 29:33
  Andy Nelson: You you can. You can work through the whole thing. Yeah. But Right. Right.
• 29:37
  It's Or an executioner of
• 29:39
  Pete Wright: least sort. Oh my god. Okay.
• 29:41
  Andy Nelson: And then we get we also get the the dragging behind the garbage truck.
• 29:48
  Pete Wright: I'm sorry. I couldn't say
• 29:49
  Pete Wright: it without persecuted laughter. It is one of the funniest deaths that we get.
• 29:55
  Pete Wright: Because, like, they do so much gruesome stuff, and then this this dragging behind the truck.
• 30:01
  Pete Wright: Where with the guy who's just completely clueless to the whole thing.
• 30:06
  Pete Wright: Totally clueless. Yeah. He's and that he's unconscious when he's ultimately killed.
• 30:11
  Andy Nelson: When the car pops his head.
• 30:13
  Pete Wright: The car,
• 30:14
  Andy Nelson: yeah, pops his head. God.
• 30:15
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Thought we were gonna get away with, like, maybe this is the one that shows the most realistic sort of trauma. But no. They had to drive a car over his head.
• 30:24
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. All we needed really in that scene just to go full parody is the two garbage men, like, dancing to a song in their car, like, bopping their heads along as they're like, they swing around the corner, and he comes swinging, like, hits his head on the curb. Like, it's just so goofy. But oh my god. I just I was laughing out loud with that whole thing.
• 30:47
  Pete Wright: Yeah. I mean, this is like, we talk about Scooby Doo. This is a Scooby Doo death. Right? This is like, maybe Shaggy and Scooby are driving the truck.
• 30:57
  Like, that would have Right. Right. Kinda filled it in.
• 31:00
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. I mean, we've kind of crossed the point where Scooby Doo like, we've turned the whole Scooby Doo thing into incredibly bloody bloody storytelling. But if it was I can't wait till that
• 31:11
  Pete Wright: falls out of out of public or into public domain. Because I think people are gonna go full blood and honey on Scooby Doo. I can't wait. Scooby did it. Yeah.
• 31:21
  Scooby pretty. Scooby done.
• 31:22
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Well, I mean, I I I think that that's lends a big part to the Jallo aesthetic. And so I think that's it's very fun. It's very bloody. It's just over the top crazy, you know, like if I were a kid, I would have had a blast watching these.
• 31:38
  I mean, I still have a blast watching it, but it's the sort of thing that just really sticks in your head. And and so to that end, I think it's, it's fun, especially because like all of the blood is just kind of like just such red blood. I mean, I I don't the title is Deep Red Profundo Rosso. I don't know if it's specifically just about the blood, but there certainly is a lot of it that we end up seeing over the course of the story.
• 32:04
  Pete Wright: The can you tell me your thoughts on our hero protagonist?
• 32:08
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Marcus, played by David Hemmings. This is something that you would get a lot in Jallo films also, where they they bring in actors from English speaking European countries, sometimes from America to kind of play the lead, and then they would do these alternate dubs. I mean, you know, as we talked about in the Spaghetti Westerns, they were dubbing it anyway. That's kind of how Italy was making their movies.
• 32:32
  So if you're watching an Italian, it's also just dubbed. It's just the way that they would do it. So I I think that Hemmings works well. I don't know if we've talked about anything else that he's been in on our show before, but he's definitely somebody who's been around. Like he's he's acted in all sorts of films and everything.
• 32:56
  He's I I think he plays it well. He plays the like I buy him as a as kind of a a jazz pianist living in in Rome or in Italy, I guess we'll just say. And just this sense of an actor who or of a person who is who kind of takes it upon himself to dig into this because he knows the killer is now after him because he was the neighbor of the woman who was killed initially of Helga and saw the killer. Like, he actually walks into the house when the killer is still there. That's that whole moment that we have where he's convinced that there's a painting that has been removed, but as we find out that it was actually a reflection of the killer.
• 33:40
  So he's kind of like come into contact. The killer is now after him, and so he and again, the cops are pretty inept in this. They do they do take shots at Carlo later in the film, but again, also are not very good at hitting him. So, yeah, he has to do it himself because otherwise, he's going to get killed.
• 33:58
  Pete Wright: That was I I have to admit, like, much as I think the the fact that it was his friend's mom that was the killer, I love the reveal of his memory of the mirror shot. I love it so much. First of all, the expression on her face is like she's trying to match the wackadoo art, which is all like spectral paranormal faces in these pictures, and she her face is trying to mimic that in the mirror. And I can't I wanna say I can't believe she gets away with it, but this whole movie is is that kind of vibe, and and it it plays ultimately. Just the the mechanics of that final scene, I think, really work, you know, especially because when we think back to the beginning when he was going into the apartment, he was moving quickly, he was running, and that's just our human experience of memory that these visual cues, you think you see something and you didn't see something or or maybe you did or you just don't know.
• 35:05
  And I I think that that actually is this is one of those things that I think plays very, very well in that final reveal.
• 35:13
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. And they didn't cheat it either. Like, you go back to the beginning and you watch that first shot when he comes in, and it's the exact same. Like It's there. Yeah.
• 35:22
  It's always there. Yeah. I think that's
• 35:24
  Pete Wright: Yeah. That's really I mean, actually, you yeah. That's a really good point. That's one of those things that that would have been easy to cheat. And and the fact that they didn't, the fact that you can go back and rebuild the sequence for yourself as a viewer is a real testament to to what they did.
• 35:40
  Whether or not you buy the the overall mystery in the relationship, boy, the mechanics of of how he plays that out. It's really good.
• 35:48
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. So over the course of the story, Marcus ends up, working with a reporter, Gianna, who she she starts out, I don't know, antagonistic, I suppose. Certainly, antagonistic with the police. She's they they kind of have a typical reporter cop relationship where she how did she know?
• 36:10
  And so you're like, is she in on it? What's the whole thing? But they kind of start this working relationship as as they're trying to help each other figure out what went on. But she's also he kind of feels maybe has to help her because she's the one who took his photo and put it in the paper. So the killer, you know, knows that he's perhaps knows more than than the killer thought he did.
• 36:35
  And so hence, we have him working with Janna. Does that does that play for you? Do you like all that? And how does Daria Nicolodi work for you in the role?
• 36:45
  Pete Wright: Well, I I didn't know what to think of her at first, but I think I I softened to her after the arm wrestling scene. I really love the way that was played. The fact that, you know, they she challenges him to arm wrestling and she wins The whole twice. That's I I mean, I just think that's a a weirdly progressive statement for this movie to make in 1975 Italy, and I enjoyed it, since, you know, the rest of who who they're killing in this movie are largely women. It's it's kind of an it's an interesting statement.
• 37:22
  I liked her. I thought she was great.
• 37:24
  Andy Nelson: She, at the time, was, I think, fairly newly married to Argento. So they they were a thing and they would be for about ten years.
• 37:35
  Pete Wright: Do you feel it in that scene?
• 37:37
  Andy Nelson: I well, I I wonder I guess I wonder if I feel like she's like, I'm curious to watch the the longer Italian cut of the film because of the extended conversations and and the comedy bits that we have between the two carriers. I'm just curious to see how all of that plays. But I do enjoy her in the film. I think that she works well in the role. I think she plays that that role well.
• 38:05
  And and she's, you know, she's kind of fun in it. So. Yeah. Yeah. Going back to the story real quick that we didn't bring up.
• 38:13
  I one of the key parts of this is the mystery of the, the kind of the mother son relationship. The film starts with that. We have a scene that takes place in the past, and we're seeing a Christmas scene. We're hearing kind of this creepy children's music playing, and there's a silhouette or shadows on the wall of a man and a woman fighting. We're not exactly sure what's going on, but there's some sort of altercation.
• 38:44
  And that's kind of how things begin. And then we have a body landing on the floor. We have a knife on the floor, bloody knife. We have children's shoes going over and walking and standing next to it. So we don't really know who is involved or why, but that is kind of our setup.
• 39:02
  How does that play for you as far as kind of giving us a setup of the story? Because once we get into our first murder, we're like, is this tied into psychics? Like, why is it the psychic gets killed? Like, what's going on? How does all that play?
• 39:15
  Pete Wright: Well, I think that's the kind of careful dance they're trying to do to make this resolve well. The problem, I think, is that the pacing of the reveal of the mystery itself is such that it that by the time you start getting to understanding what the other clues, at least for me, I kind of forget the prologue. Right? I I've I've now I've moved on to this psychic story to trying to figure out how all of this stuff is related, and I I'm no longer tracking the opening sequence. And yet, there are clues to this opening sequence throughout.
• 39:54
  For example, he goes to the to the house, right, where he he goes several times to the house. And one of the times he's in the house, he finds the drawing on the wall of that scene. And as he leaves, part of the drywall, I guess, that was over the drawing, you know, falls. And you see that he didn't yet another clue that he missed for reasons was revealed behind that. It it gave us a more complete sense of the drawing, and that would have been important for him to know.
• 40:29
  But I have to be honest, I saw that drawing and I did not connect it to the opening scene. I had forgotten the opening scene completely. So now I'm trying to connect this stabbing situation to the psychic drama. Maybe that sort of discomfort is what Argento wants me to feel, but to me, it felt, it just didn't it felt disconnected in a way that that made the mystery feel disjointed and incomplete. Even though I think you know, maybe this is a second watch concern.
• 41:00
  Right? Like, maybe I'll I'll watch it again and I'll get it all in one piece because this really is a film about detail. Like, as much as its Wackadoo murders are are central, there is a a lot of attention paid to the mechanical detail of the actual mystery. You take all the other stuff out. I I I'm saying now, as we're talking about it, I think maybe they really did pay attention to to the pieces of this puzzle.
• 41:28
  And that I guess maybe I was too slow to get it, on first watch.
• 41:33
  Andy Nelson: Well, it's definitely I I think they smartly place that opening at Christmas. And so the Christmas tree is what stands out for me so that when we do get those drawings, I'm like, oh, right. But it's Christmas. That's the whole murder that we had at the beginning. So I think I would not have been
• 41:50
  Pete Wright: able to tell
• 41:50
  Andy Nelson: you it was Christmas. Yeah. So I think on later watches, that's something that you would pick up on. You would notice that and remember. And it's fun the way that that comes back in.
• 41:58
  Like when he's in the house of the the realtor who's renting who who has that house as one of his properties, his creepy daughter who kills lizards, She's drawn that and is hanging it in her wall. And and like the mystery of like tracking that down, which takes them to the school, and then Carlo shows up to to kill them. Like all that plays, I think, really well, kind of the mystery. Carlo, you can see, is as distraught as he is and has been trying to keep the killer's identity from being revealed because he loves his mom and wants her to be safe. Like, I don't think I don't know.
• 42:38
  The way I read it is Carlo hadn't ever really been doing any of the killing. It had always been his mom. And I think the I think she kills Helga because Helga senses her when she's at the event. She goes foolishly, I'm gonna go to a psychic event. And then the psychic pins picks her out of the crowd.
• 43:01
  So you've got that kill. And then from that point, Carlo as a character seems to slowly be on the decline. Right? He just always seems worse and worse and worse. As a side note, I love that he works at a place that looks like Nighthawks.
• 43:17
  Like that blue bar where he works, it's just a totally like weird little Is that so good? Yeah. But so so the way I read it is that Carlo, I think from his conversations with Marcus and just trying to protect his mom, I think it's him that goes and kills Amanda and the professor, and then is going after Marcus and Jonna at the school. And I think his mom comes back to kill at the very end because she's upset that Marcus led to her son's death. That's how I read it.
• 43:53
  But it's possible mom was doing it all. I don't know. How did you read it?
• 43:57
  Pete Wright: I no. I read it the same way that the initial the the inciting killings were mom and that Carlo was protecting mom, and then ultimately mom was protecting or avenging Carlo. And so it was a real Oedipal murder circle.
• 44:15
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. They were that's like there's definitely a lot of that. So it I don't know. It it plays really well.
• 44:24
  I have a great time with the cast. Oh, and, you know, Goblin does the score. This is the first time they work with Argento. It's very seventies, but man, do I have a blast with the score. How did it play for you?
• 44:36
  I get
• 44:36
  Pete Wright: I mean, I I know you have a soft spot for Goblin your musical heart of hearts. I don't think I have that kind of connection to Goblin. The the score works well for me. It's it it goes in and out of being just interesting and swings toward unsettling in a way that works for this movie. I don't think I'm a goblin just generally a goblin fan.
• 45:01
  I don't think I would put I wouldn't put this on to, like, you know, study two.
• 45:07
  Andy Nelson: That's a shame. I that I'm hearing that. No. It's great. I I I just have a blast with the goblin scores that they would do with Argento.
• 45:17
  I think there's a lot of a lot of fun in their music and just what they're delivering. So Yeah. Anything else stand out for you that you want to, discuss? Or
• 45:28
  Pete Wright: Nah. You know? I mean, I I think the movie, it's just much more interesting than I expected it to be. I I have having heard so much about sort of the Jallo aesthetic, I thought this was just going to be a parade of violence and a psychological trip, and there's much more story in here than I expected there to be. I thought it was gonna be more of a fever dream, and, I'm I'm pleasantly surprised to say, hey.
• 45:57
  There's a movie in here that is also really interesting to watch.
• 46:01
  Andy Nelson: Very fun. Very fun. Yeah. It's a great one. So alright.
• 46:04
  Well, we will be right back. But first, our credits.
• 46:20
  Pete Wright: The next reel is a production of True Story FM, engineering by Andy Nelson, music by Ran Reiten and Jordiner, LMOP, Michelle Nobler, Oriel Novella, and Eli Catlin. Andy usually finds all the stats for the awards and numbers at the -numbers.com, boxofficemojo.com, imdb.com, and wikipedia.org. Find the show at truestory.fm. And if your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.
• 47:00
  Andy Nelson: Attention all you aficionados of the macabre and connoisseurs of the creepy. Are you ready to embark on a twisted journey through the annals of cinema and curate the ultimate letterbox list of the greatest creepy dolls ever to grace the silver screen? From the infamous Annabelle whose porcelain visage concealed a demonic presence to the Eerie and tragic Brahms from the boy, these dolls have left an indelible mark on our collective nightmares. But let's not forget the diabolical Billy from the Saw franchise, the haunting jester doll from Dario Argento's Deep Red, or the unsettling ventriloquist dummy from the classic British horror anthology, dead of night. And who could forget the twisted twins from dead silence, their ventriloquist dummy grins hiding a sinister secret, or the iconic Chucky from the child's play series, the red haired terror who had been haunting our dreams for decades.
• 47:51
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• 48:38
  And it works for renewals as well. Head to thenextreal.com/letterboxed, or just enter next real at letterbox.com. So what are you waiting for, my fellow travelers in terror? Step forth into the shadowy realm of Letterboxd, where the twisted beauty of creepy dolls is celebrated with a perverse sense of glee. Begin crafting your own definitive list of the greatest cinematic creepy dolls, and let the world bear witness to your impeccable taste in all things unsettling.
• 49:06
  Onwards to Letterboxd, where the dolls are waiting to welcome you with open arms and soulless eyes, ready to guide you through the darkest corners of your childhood memories.
• 49:19
  Pete Wright: Alright, Andy. Sequels and remakes. This is I mean, did did he kept making movies.
• 49:25
  Andy Nelson: Did he make another one of this? He didn't. No. He never went back to it. Well, he didn't go back to it to do a remake except as a stage show, interestingly.
• 49:37
  That's right. In 02/2007, Argento actually directed a musical theater adaptation of Deep Red with music by Claudio Cimonetti from Goblin. So that was a thing. I would love to see how that played. I'd be curious, if it went outside of Italy.
• 49:53
  I don't even know where it played. I just didn't know that he did it. And then in 02/2010, George a Romero was actually contacted by Claudio Argento, who is, I believe, the son of Dario. No. Sorry.
• 50:07
  His his brother. And he was asked to direct a three d remake of Deep Red. You know, Claudio apparently didn't ask Dario if it was okay is the problem. And so when Romero contacted Dario, Dario was like, I haven't heard anything about this. That's when, Romero declined Claudio's offer.
• 50:31
  So never ended up happening, but, you know, probably out of respect for Dario Argento.
• 50:37
  Pete Wright: Has that ever been done? No. Oh. A father or somebody's directed a movie, and then a son or daughter of that person has come and directed a remake. Can you think of it?
• 50:49
  I
• 50:49
  Andy Nelson: I feel like it has. I just can't think of anything off the top of my head. Okay.
• 50:56
  Pete Wright: Interesting. Because I know we get like, we get Cronenberg's. Right? We have a son who's making movies, but they've never done I don't think Brandon's ever done a
• 51:08
  Andy Nelson: No. Remake of No. I don't think so. Okay.
• 51:13
  Pete Wright: No. Interesting. Yeah. Okay. So what else do we have to talk about?
• 51:20
  I didn't do an awards season. Waiting for you. Yeah. That's my turn. Yeah.
• 51:25
  I looking at I was trying to figure this was really important. Apparently.
• 51:30
  Pete Wright: What do
• 51:30
  Pete Wright: we what do we have to say about award season?
• 51:33
  Andy Nelson: It wasn't big. It had one win with one other nomination at the Citges Catalonian International Film Festival. It was nominated for the Medaia Citgesenoro delle for best director and won. And then over at the Italian National Syndicate of Film Journalists, it was nominated for the silver ribbon for best score, but lost to yoopy doo, which I just wanna watch just because that title makes me laugh. Yoopy Doo.
• 52:04
  Outstanding. Yeah.
• 52:06
  Pete Wright: Okay. I'm looking for a clever intro that really highlights the absolute desert of budgetary numbers that you have introduced to your own work here. Movie after movie after movie so far this season, with the exception of I think one, you're coming up really short. I wonder if you just wanna cancel the bit.
• 52:26
  Andy Nelson: Thanks for that. You're really you're really kind in your
• 52:32
  Pete Wright: I've read nothing other than in the script other than unfortunately, and I said, yep. That checks out.
• 52:44
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. This is a tough one. Unfortunately, I have no idea how much Dario Argento may had to make this movie. What I can tell you, it was released in Italy, 03/07/1975, then premiered in New York City, 06/09/1976, with a wide release June 11. The movie was rereleased 01/18/1980, retitled as The Hatchet Murders, then again in 1982 as The Phantom of Terror.
• 53:12
  On its initial release in The US, it had earned 630,000, and in Italy, it earned 5,700,000.0 for a total gross of 32,200,000.0, which is a handsome bit of money. I just don't know how much it cost to make, so I can't sort out the profits. Still, it likely worked out for Argento. Honorary adjusted profit per finish minute. Honorary.
• 53:33
  There you go.
• 53:34
  Pete Wright: Alright. Well, I I had a blast. I'm glad it was on the list. Thank you, fifty years project for Andy.
• 53:40
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. I'm glad to get you to finally watch this one. It's a really fun film, and, you know, I think it's a good start for you dipping your toe into the crazy world of Italian giallo films. Absolutely. Here's to more.
• 53:54
  Alright. Well, that's it for today's conversation. Next week, we are looking at Sidney Lumet's Dog Day Afternoon. We'll be right back for our ratings.
• 54:05
  Pete Wright: You saw it. You know you saw it. There, just for a second, something in the corner of the frame, a flicker, a gloved hand, a shadow that should not have been there. You tell yourself it's nothing. You go back.
• 54:22
  You watch again, and this time, it is gone. That's what it's like listening to the next reel without the membership. You're missing something. You're missing the full picture, the hidden room behind the crumbly plaster. You're missing the unnerving conversation that is just out of reach.
• 54:42
  But here is the good news. For just the $5 a month, you can unlock the uncut, undubbed, unhinged version of the show. That means ad free episodes. That means early access. That means a member only channels in the Discord server.
• 54:56
  That means a livestreams for those who like to watch. And, of course, this smogus satisfaction of knowing what all the others have missed. So join the next real family of film podcasts as a supporting member, and stop guessing what was behind the mirror. Go to truestoryfm slash join because the real horror is not knowing what you missed.
• 55:23
  Pete Wright: Letterbox, Sandy. Letterboxd. Letterboxd.com/thenextreel. That's where you can find all of the movies that we've been talking about on this show and where our stars and hearts are buried and sometimes cleaved asunder. Sometimes boiled in a hot bathtub.
• 55:37
  What are you going to do for this movie?
• 55:41
  Andy Nelson: I have, such a fun time with this one. It's it's bloody. It's silly. It's, just a lot of fun. Some great creepy moments.
• 55:50
  Four stars and a heart is where I'm gonna land with this one.
• 55:53
  Pete Wright: Andy, me too. Look at that. Four stars and a heart.
• 55:57
  Andy Nelson: Look at that.
• 55:57
  Pete Wright: What is going on right now?
• 56:00
  Andy Nelson: Samezies, I guess.
• 56:01
  Pete Wright: Samezies.
• 56:02
  Andy Nelson: Yeah.
• 56:04
  Pete Wright: Outstanding. I can't believe this is a four star movie. I can't believe it.
• 56:09
  Andy Nelson: So you walked into this not expecting it to be?
• 56:12
  Pete Wright: Oh, yeah. Interesting. I walked into it expecting it to be barely watchable. Really? I thought I was gonna be mad at you again.
• 56:19
  Andy Nelson: Wow. This is very like, there's a reason these movies hold up for fifty years. I know. That's the whole point of this series. Watch next week's dog day afternoon is the one you're gonna be like, one star.
• 56:32
  Pooey.
• 56:33
  Pete Wright: Well, that one I've seen before.
• 56:34
  Andy Nelson: I know. But I'm just saying I'm gonna be surprised.
• 56:36
  Pete Wright: You think it may be or late.
• 56:37
  Andy Nelson: Maybe you really hate it. That's your secret.
• 56:42
  Pete Wright: It's got issues. It's got quibbles. It's it's practically outlines its own quibbles. Oh my gosh.
• 56:48
  Andy Nelson: Well, will average out to four stars in a heart. You can find that over at our account on Letterboxd at the next reel. You can find me there at Soda Creek Film, and you can find Pete there at Pete Wright. So what did you think about Deep Red or Profundo Rosso? We would love to hear your thoughts.
• 57:03
  Hop into the Show Talk channel over at our Discord community where we will be talking about the movie this week. When the movie ends. Our conversation begins.
• 57:27
  Pete Wright: Letterbox give it Andrew. As letterbox always do it. Okay. Do you wanna do you wanna start?
• 57:35
  Andy Nelson: Do I kick it off? Sure.
• 57:36
  Pete Wright: Yeah. I do want you to kick it off. I want you to kick it off.
• 57:38
  Andy Nelson: I've got a three and a half by Fran Hoffner who has this to say, hated watching concert pianists try to rip plaster off the wall with his fingertips. Protect the assets, buddy. I could not agree more. That was That made you uncomfortable, more of mine to watch. I was just like, no.
• 57:56
  No. No. Like, don't what like, I wasn't thinking about him being a pianist. I was just thinking about, jeez, like, that is awful for your fingers. Like, I just shivers up my spine.
• 58:05
  Pete Wright: Well, I have a three star follow-up that I think is on theme from Taylor Williams who says, I'm surprised the killer didn't turn out to be asbestos with how much of it this guy was eating. That's all I could think about is put a mask on, man. You are a breathing toxin.
• 58:23
  Andy Nelson: I love that when he realizes the window that is has been plastered over, that instead of just, like, going inside to find the room, he's just like, I'm gonna scale the wall of this place
• 58:34
  Pete Wright: to find the window. Then it then it doesn't go well.
• 58:37
  Pete Wright: He's like, okay. Hammering from the outside.
• 58:39
  Andy Nelson: I'm gonna go to the wall, though. There was something
• 58:42
  Pete Wright: really unsettling about how they shot that. Like, did you could you get a sense of what floor he was on?
• 58:49
  Andy Nelson: It was high, but it's also like the house is in a weird position. I love this. The house of the screaming child. Like, it's been dubbed to that. But it's like so it feels like there's multi levels because it also feels like it's on a hill.
• 59:04
  So it feels like suddenly, like, there's a drop here, and so it's it's farther up than maybe if you'd gone around the corner.
• 59:10
  Pete Wright: Yeah. And because when he he fought like, he's on the we get to see him scale down two stories. And I kept thinking, maybe is the camera trying to trick us and tell us that they can't get any lower, so they're gonna shoot, you know, very low and try and make us think that this is like five story house, but it's not working. And then there's a hidden story beneath him. So, like, they pull back as he's scaling down the side and there's even more house.
• 59:36
  Yeah. So I think it's a third story window Yeah. That he's banging into. The other thing that I made me think of, which I wondered given all of your repainting projects, at any point, did you think to yourself, damn it. Why didn't we seal off a room?
• 59:55
  Andy Nelson: I always wonder about that.
• 59:57
  Pete Wright: Spent a lot of time the day I watched this thinking, is there a room in my house I could get away with sealing off from the outside and inside that nobody would notice?
• 1:00:06
  Andy Nelson: That's the trick. That's the trick. Don't have it. Yeah. You gotta have the right design for a house where it's hard to tell.
• 1:00:12
  And I think modern houses, it's kind of well, and also, you you gotta have more of a mansion to really get to that place where you could safely seal the roof off.
• 1:00:20
  Pete Wright: Well, least we know what we're shooting for.
• 1:00:22
  Andy Nelson: That's right. That's right.
• 1:00:23
  Pete Wright: Thanks, letterboxed.