Latest / Conversations with Dad / Forging a path with honesty and support from mom
Transcript
- Mbrownstein3485: Good afternoon, ⁓ So before we hit record, we were talking about what it's like when adults get frustrated and how they respond to it or big feelings. You didn't use the word big feelings, but I'm thinking about myself, like whether it's... Stanley Brownstein: Hey. and when their children are involved and maybe reflecting their behavior, which is... Mbrownstein3485: Totally. ⁓ And then I almost, I think that it's true in some ways. think kids are more used to feeling a little bit out of control and not necessarily, they don't put that added pressure on themselves when they don't know what to do or when they get super frustrated. I think that as adults, You know, we have those same big feelings and emotions, but then we put that extra added pressure on ourselves. Like, well, we should know what the answer is. We should be in control. and I, I certainly experienced that. And, and when, and the reason I guess I'm bringing this up as I'm thinking about our conversation last week is where we left off. We were talking about this big decision that you were making about some of your career choices. And. You know, you were on a track, you were working. your butt off with the city, were finding some success with the, ⁓ working with, with, with kids with special needs and you were committed to that track. And then there was a possibility of something different. And before we talk about like, what set you up to feel ready to make a different type of decision, I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about. just what was it like thinking about your choices and I don't know, some of the negotiation that might have been happening for you as you were thinking about the path you were on, but then the possibility of a different path. Like what was it like for you before you ultimately made a decision? Stanley Brownstein: . I think in terms of the work I was doing employment wise, it was something that I was doing for a few years in a concentrated way, married to mom, to the extent that my past history informed it, ⁓ that contributed more or less, but just those few years, Mbrownstein3485: Mm-hmm. Stanley Brownstein: It became increasingly evident that it was just ⁓ not a, I didn't feel fruitful or enjoyable. ⁓ So... I was, in a way, was almost a little bit desperate to find something else. mean, I'm kind of embarrassed to say that I even thought working with my father again would be a possibility since I had that skill. But that would have been a big mistake. I think I would have ended up in the same level of dissatisfaction in which I was. Mbrownstein3485: Hmm. you Can I ask you a question? Can I ask you just a follow-up to some of that? So some of those ideas that you were considering both in terms of some of the feelings you had, like you mentioned, like there was a note of embarrassment maybe, or, ⁓ just the possible options that you had in front of you. Was it, were there, was there anybody that you were kind of talking about these, these choices with people that you were kind of. Okay. Stanley Brownstein: Yeah. Pretty much mom, in many ways. I think mom bared the brunt of my dissatisfaction, but she was also an ⁓ appreciated ⁓ perspective in terms of my ideas. And perspective and support necessary and understandable need. It affected her tremendously. Mbrownstein3485: Okay. Stanley Brownstein: ⁓ how I was feeling about where I was and also what my options chosen might impact her. Mbrownstein3485: Okay. Stanley Brownstein: So, ⁓ I kind of remember sitting in a train and imagining what did I want to be when I grew up, so to speak. my brother Robert, was met very much, we used to call him like an administrator, because he worked in government for many years and he had that kind of, we looked at him as ⁓ manifesting that behavior. ⁓ And I thought about that and our refrain when we discussed that would be like, you you work for the city of New York as an administrator and your big battles would be like fighting over which chair you wanted or which desk you wanted. So that didn't seem like an admirable thing. Then I thought about being an attorney. And I felt that, cause I like to do research and you know, I like to kind of, Mbrownstein3485: Okay. Stanley Brownstein: discuss, call it adversarial or what have you. And at that point in my time, I guess I was doing some work on myself and I felt like I didn't need to magnify that kind of behavior in myself. And around that time I was exposed to chiropractic and acupuncture. And acupuncture wasn't... Mbrownstein3485: Mm-hmm. Stanley Brownstein: ⁓ as legal as it is now, as accepted. Chiropractic was more so, was, ⁓ you you can get a degree and a certification and practice it. And it really seemed to like check off all the boxes in terms of what my interests were. You know, I liked that East-West connection. I wanted a job that I guess based upon my history working with a special population, that was something, working with people, being of service to needs was attractive to me. Then it was like this intellectual challenge, you're diagnosing things and it was physical work which was attractive to me. So emotionally, physically, you can make a good living at it. So I says, this really checks off boxes that if anything was gonna make me happy, which is never a guarantee, this should do it. So as I said last week, I felt that I would see if I was ⁓ capable of doing it. so I did the, took the science courses while I was working full time and... Mbrownstein3485: Mmm. Stanley Brownstein: The rest is history. Mbrownstein3485: You make it sound like once that decision was made, that it was a self-propelling thing, but I know that you were what was propelling it. Was there something new that you found in yourself that gave you the energy and the drive to do this? Did you discover something? What was happening there? Stanley Brownstein: You know, that's an interesting question. almost feel like when I say things like that, I'm... you know, I'm kind of making it up because you never know what propels someone. I just felt that, you know, in the years kind of preceding that, gained, you know, I tried a lot of new things and I think I looked at myself in a more... honest, introspective way evaluating what propels me to do things and what propels me not to try to do things. And I also recognized that I really, truly would be miserable and stagnate. I mean, I think I would stagnate at what I did in terms of emotional psychologically and I don't think there was anything inherently wrong with the people who worked there if they were happy doing it, but I just, based upon... how I had been responding to it, I think I would just have been so miserable. had to do something. And it's like I had an answer. And I decided on a path and mom was supportive of it. again, confronting my avoidance of the sciences and exceeding, it gave me the confidence to... take that leap. Mbrownstein3485: Yeah, it sounded like if there was a shift or something new, it was the extent to which you were honest with yourself. Do you think that there's some truth there? Stanley Brownstein: Well, yeah, absolutely, if I was to... identify the shift, how I look at it at this point, which again, I find this an odd story, you know, given explanation as to what motivates us and why we do things. I would say that I really did feel I had a choice in the possibility, which was something I never, you know, that's again, it was not, you know, a lot of You can either confirm this or deny it, but I think we instilled in you and your siblings that desire and work can bring fruition. And I just, that was in my orientation growing up. It really was, was bizarre when I think about it now, like they didn't really give us aspirational dreams in that way. And I'm not saying, I just don't, you know, I think it was not that they held back. That was just kind of, and again, I'm very grateful for the foundation we got. And I think. Yeah, I wouldn't change it because you give one thing you take away from another, who knows? you know, but I just think I appreciated that I actually have a choice to do something to make my life more meaningful. Mbrownstein3485: short. Mm-hmm. And that realization you said just now is something that might have been part of your orientation, which we can definitely attribute to your parents to some extent. Maybe they didn't tell you where to go, but that you had something inside you that could choose the path around where you go. And it's your work and your interests that drive that. ⁓ But it also, you also mentioned that there was some work that you were doing on yourself. is there, what do you think right now would be? Stanley Brownstein: Yes. Mbrownstein3485: you tell us where to go from here, which one would you want to dig into a little bit more deeply, the work or a little bit more about where your orientation around work and interest came from? Stanley Brownstein: Well, so the work was, I mean, I think because I was brought up fairly religious. So I was thinking about that the other day. What attracted me to pursue that? Because I kind of pursued it, I mean, I pursued it with my father. Mbrownstein3485: Mm-hmm. Stanley Brownstein: in many ways. And you could say that was just to get his approval, ⁓ but also the approval of God, so to speak. ⁓ then I... But he went to a temple that was not very supportive. I didn't feel very supportive in that way. So at a certain point, there was a temple that was up the block. Mbrownstein3485: you Stanley Brownstein: from us, was conservative. it was just more, you didn't feel as lost in the level of learning and upbringing that I didn't have. But it still provided that kind of nurturing. Suggestion of meaning and order to the universe, which for whatever reason that was something that I was drawn to. Why I was drawn to that? Maybe because I was a confused, anxious kid and that kind of was a pacifier for me. Who's to say? I did pursue that over the years on my own terms, to the extent that I would do things that I know my father necessarily wasn't in line with, but it was important to me. Mbrownstein3485: Like what? Stanley Brownstein: So for instance, I joined an organization that was more eclectic. They valued Buddha and Christianity as much as they valued Judaism. But I didn't hide that from him. But it also addressed those needs for me. Mbrownstein3485: Okay. What were some conversations that you can remember between you and Papa Joe about the... Stanley Brownstein: Nothing really, it's only so much like I actually, and my mother both visited the health center at certain points and they had this big cross in the, but it was like to me the cross wasn't a negation of Judaism as much as a welcoming of a spiritual God. Mbrownstein3485: Okay. Sure. Stanley Brownstein: oriented perspective. ⁓ But I did, you know, and it was a very eclectic place. So we worked hard at trying to understand all these different ways to ⁓ have a greater relationship to truth. Mbrownstein3485: So is this a space, this is not Gurjeev yet, or is it Gurjeev? Stanley Brownstein: Well, Gurjit was part of it, Buddhism was part of it, Tai Chi, yoga, being asked to socialize much more with people as part of a representative of this place, cleaning toilets, ⁓ dealing with other people who were sharing this journey with you but who were very different than you. You may not have liked or you may have liked. Mbrownstein3485: Okay. ⁓ okay. Stanley Brownstein: all these different things. So I think it kind of gave me a... You could say a power to try things new, to venture out. You know, it gave me, many circumstances, I saw that I did things just because I knew that it was a stretch of my comfort zone. Like I remember, you know, I was in a fellowship when I was in my graduate program for speech and, know, and they, you know, you'd be in a group and the supervisor would say, so, who would like to do this? And no one would raise their hand. So I would just go, okay, I'll do it. It was just like that type of thing. Cause like, why not? there was, on one hand there was my upbringing that attracted me to try to find meaning and comfort in the universe, whether through religion or I'd read psychology or I'd read philosophy. even though Mbrownstein3485: Right? Mm-hmm. Stanley Brownstein: In hindsight, I recognize that I didn't have a clue what I was reading, you when I'd read, you know, some of this philosophy and stuff like that. But there was a certain comforting that I got from it in that I felt it was creating some order to the universe. So I think. Mbrownstein3485: you Stanley Brownstein: that may have contributed to me wanting to and feeling I was able to ⁓ kind of direct my life in a direction that I thought was... possible and necessary and why not? Long-winded, did I answer your question? Mbrownstein3485: Yeah, I mean, it's, I mean, it sounded like you found some like agency and it, and you know, when you're, when you're making choices that you see effects and the effects, enough of them are positive. Definitely creates energy. You know, you Stanley Brownstein: And I also feel like I tried, you you tried different things growing up, you know, whether it's through the greater culture, whether it's through your social group, whether it's through some tradition your family has. ⁓ like I tried to be real religious for one period of time, you know, like I was doing everything. And I just recognize it wasn't. It wasn't giving me what I wanted. In a way, it's funny. It's like Judaism's a funny thing because they have all these rules. So when people hear about it, they say, oh, it's so regimented. That must be hard. it was actually easy because it's like, oh, you know what you can eat. You know what you can eat. You know what you have to do in the morning. And all these things were prescribed. And that was actually OK. But it didn't. it didn't make me feel any more understanding of the world around me. And that was, you know, really, I guess, in a way, the understanding and the comfort that you get in your feeling you understand, which is an illusion too, I recognize. But that was, I think in many ways, that's what I needed. So, you know, when I saw that I think that does connect to when I saw that I was in this job and I wasn't happy, that it gave me the understanding that, you know, to kind of grab the bull by the horn. And I had your mother's support, which was exceptional. You know, that helped a lot. You know, it helped a lot telling me I was acting like an asshole and it also helped a lot giving me support when I wanted to. You know, try this. Mbrownstein3485: really cool and really really impressive. Stanley Brownstein: Cause even when I was, you know, for that whole year and summer, I mean, I was like nowhere to be found. But even when I decided to go back, you know, in the future, going back to, I mean, I wasn't as available. I mean, you know, it's a busy time. You guys were young and I wasn't as available in a way that... Mbrownstein3485: Acupuncture School. Stanley Brownstein: you know, your mother could have used and she didn't complain at all. I mean, she was totally supportive, but you know, so that really helps a lot. Mbrownstein3485: Yeah. Yeah, it seemed like there were like a pretty special confluence of people and ideas that, and then ultimately you, like taking that opportunity and doing something with it, right? Because you had mom before, you... still were doing things different from your brothers. It wasn't like you were just following in line with whatever your brothers were doing. You were still doing something different, but you also needed that extra dose of self-reflection and honesty to realize what path you were on and then ultimately, possibly where... where you can go differently. ⁓ It's pretty impressive. And I think something you mentioned last week's conversation, bringing up some of the things that. your parents have said or did that influenced you and the decisions you made and what principles they articulated either indirectly or directly. I I remember you sharing that idea many times, just the importance of not that there's this one thing that we should be finding that will drive all the work that we do, but there's great importance of just being honest with ourselves about what is our relationship to the work? Is there, you we started... today before the recording talking about like the greater purpose or ⁓ the end game. It's like, what are we doing and why we're doing it? Because if we find these more or less the right path, it's worth working your butt off for that than just putting your head down and sticking with something that you're not interested in, you're not motivated by, you don't have the passion and momentum for. So I remember you sharing that many, many a times with me. So thank you for that. Stanley Brownstein: Yeah, I really do think... ⁓ having some sort of purpose in your life, you know, and there's an expression that I read from Grzegorz, and it's really, I'm sure I've said this to you, but he said, and I could, this is how it struck me, he said, give me a person who makes good coffee. And it's like such a basic, like what? But it's kind of, and, then, you know, you think about what Zen is, you know, you know, the art of archery, you know, the art of the garden, you know, this. you know, where if you have a direction. ⁓ You have something which to judge meaning, your meaning of in life. Like I remember telling one of your siblings, know, if you want to be a garbage man and that makes you happy, go for it. And that's like, if you do something well. Mbrownstein3485: Mm-hmm. Stanley Brownstein: and you're happy doing it, what else can you ask for? I I don't know. Mbrownstein3485: I that's a good place to end for this week. ⁓ Stanley Brownstein: Alright. Mbrownstein3485: Obviously we'll connect and we'll see what makes sense for next week. I think it was interesting just to hear about all the, yeah, like what was going on for you as you were making decisions, but then also how your dad and your mom and how my mom and kind of their words and their actions, how that helped to support and guide you as you were making these decisions. So. think I'm personally interested in any of the other relationships that were significant during that time for you that either pulled you in certain directions or maybe even pushed you away. But then also thinking about as you're making these big decisions and doing things that are very distinct from folks you grew up with and also maybe even your family, like what that was like for you and your relationships with them. Stanley Brownstein: Sure, all good. Mbrownstein3485: That might be something we talk more about next week. All right, love you, Dad. Thank you. Stanley Brownstein: All right. Love you too.