Latest / The Andrew Mychal Podcast / E4 | Coming Out and Finding Your Voice with Jonathan Sanz

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E4 | Coming Out and Finding Your Voice with Jonathan Sanz · The Andrew Mychal Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: A quick note before we begin, the Andrew Michael Podcast is a space for people to share their personal stories and lived experiences.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not a doctor, therapist, licensed health professional, or coach, and nothing shared here should be considered medical, mental health, or professional advice.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_03: Some content may not be appropriate for children.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_03: Listener discretion is advised.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: Music is so powerful, it's so universal.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: This chorus does incredible work.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: The concerts have this ability to stir the soul in so many ways.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just a singing thing, it's not just a gay thing, it's a people thing.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_03: We all have stories that shape who we became.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: Some we understand, some we still carry, and some we don't even recognize until another person helps us see them differently.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Andrew Michael, and this is the Andrew Michael Podcast.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_03: Honest conversation about the experiences that shape us, the patterns we carry, and what becomes possible when we finally understand what's been driving us.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes hearing someone else's story is exactly what we need to better understand our own.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_03: Today, I want to introduce you to someone who inspires me, not just a leader and a performer, but as someone who's taught me the importance of being my authentic self.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_03: He has shown me that leadership isn't about being perfect.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's about finding balance, having courage, and be willing to show up just as you are.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: He's a teacher, a role model, and a passionate advocate for our community, and the man can really, really sing.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: He also happens to be the president of the Gay Men's Chorus of South Florida.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: Jonathan, welcome to the show.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for having me, Andrew.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so so flattered.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: Such great words.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: We're so happy you're here.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_03: You're our first guest that's glowing, which matches your personality.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: Gotta have good lighting, please.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: For those people who are just joining in for the first time, can you tell us a little bit about the course?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: So the Gay Men's Course of South Florida is the largest gay men's course in the Southeast.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: We are based in the Fort Lauderdale area in South Florida, uh, but we cover both my all like the Tri-County area.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: So Miami Dade, Broward County, West Palm Beach, over 170 members from the LGBTQ community, including uh folks of people of color, straight folks, trans folks, uh gay men, lesbians.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: We we we run the gamut, and our mission is to sing so that LGBTQ people can live their truth and authentic selves through quality music performances in the hopes of opening hearts and changing minds.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: So uh it's a very special organization.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's been around for about fifth uh actually entering our 16th season.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's a very special place uh where people connect, they get to find their authentic selves through music and present that on stage.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: So uh it's been I've been on a member for about six years now, and it's definitely a major aspect of my life, almost too much of my life, but but I'm very committed and very passionate and proud of all the work that we do.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_03: I've been in the chorus now for two years, and it's been one of the best experiences of my life.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh they say everybody needs to find their tribe, and it's taken me a long time to find a space that was inclusive where you could feel safe, and it's just really fun.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_03: You've kind of worked your way through the ranks.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_03: Can you kind of start at the beginning of what it was like for you in your first year?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's a little bit of a complicated story, so I'm not gonna go too long into the details, but long story short, is I had kind of like a false start with the chorus.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I actually joined in 2018.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so at the time I was working for a cruise line and I had been given an opportunity to work shoreside, and so I was working in the Miami offices daily, desperate for a community because I had been away for so long.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: I was more of a shipboard employee.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: I was gone for so long that I had no community left.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: All my friends had left, family moved.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I was hungry for a place to to can to be my authentic self, if you will.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: I also missed singing.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: I hadn't sung in like the better part of a decade.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was looking for all of these things and I found the Gaiman's chorus, got started, went through the audition, I had to leave because the ship, the sea was calling me, if you will, and I had to go back on board a ship.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was there for a couple of months and then left.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: And then shortly in I want to say 2020, right around the pandemic time, I found myself back on land.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: And as you know, 2020 was a bit of an interrupter for many lives, but it was actually a serendipitous moment for me because I was able to come back to the chorus.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: I was welcomed with open arms.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: And at the time, it was very clear that we were in kind of a major crux, a major change uh in the world.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: Not only because of the pandemic, we had some major changes for administration.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: Our artistic director Harold was leaving the chorus.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: We were in the process of welcoming a new artistic director, changes in leadership were occurring, and the reality is that the chorus was ready for a new step, a new identity, in where the tenet of like inclusivity and welcoming all people, you know, was really a main focus.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was kind of charged to lead that, developing our diversity, equity, and inclusion.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: That's what we called it at the time.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's since morphed into many different identities.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but all on the idea of I I wanted to help create that inclusive environment.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm the type of person that I I typically when I make a commitment, I make it 100%.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm all in.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so I started in leadership pretty early.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: And it was it was it was really a challenging time because not only what was going on in the world, but also just uh personally, you know, I was in a very committed relationship at the time that required long distance, coming to terms with the fact that my ship life, if you will, was coming to an end.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was navigating all these things, and the course is really where I found home and my center.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: And that's also I think where my leadership skills really developed and blossomed mostly because uh it it challenged me and it required me to learn how to have difficult conversations, it required me to learn to learn how to stand up for my beliefs, to collaborate with folks, to listen, to take more pause, and be okay with the stillness.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so in that time, my the rising of the ranks was very much so.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um I started with the diversity side, moved up to secretary, moved up to vice president, took a break, uh, became president of the chorus, and that's the role I've been now for uh going into my third year as president.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: And it's incredible to see what we've accomplished and and some of my influence in the organization and seeing how different this chorus is and how much we've grown and being that true reflection of the community that we wanted to be.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: So I've only known you as leadership.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_03: It was interesting in the beginning when you told me how you started as a scholarship kid who went through the ranks.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_03: And there's a lot of personalities, there's a lot of singers, there's a lot of events.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_03: You and I have kind of talked at length.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_03: Leadership can be lonely.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's hard to be at the top, and then on top of that, you're a very gifted performer.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_03: So I've only been singing for a couple years.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_03: Can you share some of the backstory of like where did you learn to sing?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_03: Who nurtured that?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_03: And is leadership your first love or is singing?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's a great question.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'll I'll answer the first one first, which is where singing came from.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um I was a late bloomer when it came to singing.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I I had no idea of this talent and this yearning within me as a child.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: I always say that people think that I'm a very extroverted person, uh, which is true, but my innate nature is an introvert.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: I get very shy in new environments, and so singing would never have aligned with me, even though there was probably a wanting to stand out.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so I discovered singing of all places in the church.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I was very, very involved with church as a kid, uh, Catholic upbringing, uh, you know, mass every Sunday, and so in that when we came to Florida, I started being involved with youth groups and actually attended retreats uh with said youth groups.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so those retreats, the whole idea behind them is to kind of put you in a situation where you're isolated from the world, strip away from all the things that occupy your mind, and really focus on the spiritual being inside and make a connection with God.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm speaking very non-Catholic for the sake of you, but also my beliefs have probably changed over the years.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but the intention was really to create that intimate relationship with a spiritual being, and all music was a major influence of it.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: We would have things called meditation hours and song sessions, and so that we'd have upbeat moments, we would have very reflective moments, and ultimately I learned that I could sing simply because I was standing next to the music minister, a very gifted pianist named Marcus, who had a beautiful voice, um, and he had this incredible ability to just improvise.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like he would just play on that piano and he could play for like an hour, two hours, three hours plus, and just go song to song to song, improvise, and he would get into these very profound meditative moments that were just really inspiring.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was standing next to him and singing along, and at some point he stops and just looks at me, he's like, You have a voice, you need to nurture that.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: And from then on, that was kind of like the aha moment.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like, oh, I have talent.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: So uh that that kind of was the gateway to start exploring that.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: Ironically, I joined.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_03: How old were you?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry, Dinner, how old were you at that moment?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: I want to say 13, 13.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so you were you were still relatively young.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: I was still relatively young.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: I I say late bloomer because I find in theater, like the theater folks, because that's that's really who I am, they start so much younger and start learning about all these talents, and just you know, you hear the stories of people like, oh, they always sang as kids.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like you hear them singing here, they singing there, and like I never did that.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so I sought to sing, and I tried to join the church's chorus and was denied initially, uh, because though I have a good quality in voice, I couldn't match tone.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um later, I would find out it's because the director Love Her.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, she had a tendency to put everything into her keys because she was the primary singer.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I being a boy, I didn't know how to switch octaves and then make those adjustments, so I didn't understand what was going on.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so initially I thought it was tone-deaf.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so then I took a piano class and just banging on keyboards would actually help me.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, this note is the same as this note, it's just higher and lower.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then I started to understand music a lot more and ultimately would get to join the church choir.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I also started drama in uh I think it was my sophomore year of high school.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so that kind of started inspiring the love of performing.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: And and leadership kind of came a little bit later.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I I ultimately would become like the drama club president.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: I've always had that knack for unifying people and getting people excited about something, but I wouldn't necessarily call it my love the same way it I find that's more my my vocation versus my love.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: Leadership is my vocation, performance is my passion.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think the two can unite and do very well together, but they do operate in very different ways, but they intersect as well.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, and and but performance definitely became like it's for lack of a better phrase, it truly is a drug.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I'll never forget like my first actual performance.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: I was in the musical Pippin.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I was ensemble, and it it couldn't be any more poetic that first performance, because I remember it was the opening number called Magic to Do.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: Already perfect like opening song for my performance life.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: And we were all standing behind this like black curtain that had slits in it that we could jump out of, and so the opening sequence was our hands were gloved, and they were white gloves outside of this slit, and we were like waving them in space, and there was a black light that created this glow effect, so very ooky spooky kind of deal.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and essentially we each got to pop out of the curtain, come out, if you will, and sing a line, and so uh I remember like the rush of that first performance and getting to do that and then popping out on my line, and it was just it was almost like a baptism where I popped out and I can just feel this rush, adrenaline uh sense of being and and and purpose all in that one moment, and it was just very exciting and and just that initial thrill, you know, I constantly feel it coming out on stage.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: There's always that like butterfly, butterfly, butterfly, butterfly, but then you're on and it's like I'm here, I this is where I belong.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that really has never left me.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I I find myself constantly chasing the entrance, if you will.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_03: So I want to spend some time on that.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_03: You started singing at 13.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't sing my first note until I was 42.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_03: So it's important to put that in context because I want people to know that it's never too late to start singing.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: I recently went to something called inner child theater camp.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_03: There were people from ages 20 to 65, and you and I talked about this.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_03: There were people there who had never sung or who had sung when they were in their adolescence, and someone told them you're no good.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_03: So they never sang for 40 years, or they were in plays in school, and someone said, You're not very good.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_03: It makes me sad.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_03: We get one life, we get one chance at happiness.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_03: Part of the reason why I love hearing your story is somebody like me was too scared, was too fearful to try to sing or to be in any type of drama because again, 30 years ago, I was hiding.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't want anybody to think that I was gay.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_03: And in that, I lost a lot of years and I lost a lot of creativity.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_03: The beauty about the chorus is we have three productions a year, so it's like supersonic speed, you know, like catching up.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_03: For you, is it hard having a job, being the president, and then also honoring that gift of performance and singing?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_03: How do you balance the three of them?
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_03: Because there's a lot of people out there that won't allow themselves to have the fun of the singing and performing because of my job's what's most important.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: I reflect on my time on ships.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: So my time on ships, I am on duty seven days a week, on call 24 hours a day because of the position I was in for months and months at a time.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: And it's very easy in that space to be living to work.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: And for a lot of it, I was.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: I was con I would I I'm I'm working all hours technically.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like I can't tell you the amount of times that I would be in uh fun scenarios, if you will, that I would be interrupted because of a phone call and I had to immediately go and respond.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so it was very easy to just in that rhythm.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: But as much as I was working hard, there was a constant reminder of you have to live hard, you have to party hard, you have to have a good time because if not, you're gonna go insane.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I found so many wonderful people created so many beautiful connections that really would not have been possible on land because you're with the same people every single day.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: You really have no choice as to who you connect with.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you do have a choice, but like that that's it.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: That you're very limited.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so coming back to land, that was so intense, that that cruise ship life, that coming back to land, I didn't really need to worry as much about I didn't have that same live to work kind of mentality.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: I kind of was able to flip it to no, if I'm gonna have a job, this job has to have balance, and I need to have hard boundaries and I need to be able to do the things that I love.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: Because if my life is only about work, then that's all I'm ever gonna get is work.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so the chorus very much became that vocation of like beginning it, being able to perform.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: And once I started to get into leadership, that's I think where the biggest conflict became because as much as I was performing, every single choice and decision I make, every single thing that I do would be scrutinized because I'm the president of the chorus.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: And speak to that.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: Speak to that, yeah.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um like it's it's difficult because every single thing that happens, one way or another, it ties down to my role, right, as president.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so part of me sometimes has to take a step back and be like, I can't have too much spotlight on me, um, as much as I love the spotlight, because I, you know, I fully admit like the stage is where I'm meant to be and where I excel the most.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: But it's hard because you don't want to be seen as like someone who's taking an opportunity for everything or uh being judged because I'm using my position to get something I need.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: When in reality, like the amount of time I perform on stage for the course is minimal to the hours of work that I put in for that moment, not even just to perform, but making sure that people have what they need, addressing concerns, you know, the constant barrage of meetings and reports and requests.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: And we're a nonprofit organization that's you know been impacted by a government that doesn't really want us to exist.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so, how do we survive?
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we have to fight, but we also have to get creative and we also have to rally our troops and shift culture, you know, from a passive culture of like as an organization, we've been very lucky that we've had a very few easy years when it comes to funding because we were well funded by the city, by the by the county.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's all gone now.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: Now we have to go and fight and get ours to stay alive.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so switching that mentality from passive to active is very trying.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: And trying to also steer the ship, if you will, to a direction of we are going to strive for more, more excellence, more membership, uh, more connections within the Tri-County.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we have a lot of room to grow, and we're still a very we're we're a nascent organization.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: We're just getting started.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's a lot of weight on my shoulders um to help lead.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I have an incredible team uh on all sides of the course to make that happen.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: But suddenly performance becomes the lesser part of my obligations within the organization.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm kind of now in my own phase of discovering my own path of performing.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so far it's it's just doing little gigs here and there.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but they've been what they've done is allowed for more bravery from my part and reminding me like I can do these things.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: I've been told all my life I can't do certain songs.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: I can't do certain things because of the way I look, because of my vocal type, or whatever.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm kind of not allowing those voices to win and and forcing myself to to Just take risks and have fun.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like we we kind of talked about a little bit early, but it is all about having fun.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: And your life should be filled with fun, whatever way that you're doing.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like if it's not, then what do you like?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: There's no joy in your life.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: And and and sometimes fun doesn't have to be big conceptual things like the chorus.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: It has to be silly little moments because that's what touches our hearts.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: That's the stuff that oftentimes we have to go back to on a bad day and be like, oh, but I love this little thing that I do.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: I love this little moment.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: I love this little laugh.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_03: These are the moments where I just, again, I love the little playful insights.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: I've also got to see you perform outside of the chorus, which has given me, has expanded my mind to there are other opportunities.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: There's only one stage.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes that stage isn't big enough for everybody.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_03: So you have to kind of create your own stage.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_03: So part of the reason why I love being with the chorus is there are lots of opportunities to come together in community and to support each other.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_03: And one of my big foundational efforts is the more you give, the more you receive.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that the chorus, there's a lot of like-minded individuals that are always giving.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_03: So because we've had this shortfall in funding, I created a book called Who's Driving the Bus, and you read that book.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_03: And then I presented the chorus with the opportunity, hey, let's come together as a fundraiser.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: I will rent this space, and we are going to sell the books, and 100% of the proceeds from that day and that night all go to the chorus.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_03: With the chorus proceeds netting out to$5,000.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_03: Whether it's 500 or 5,000, every little bit helps with the chorus.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_03: When I wrote that book, the essence of the book was about finding my voice and about how growing up, my father was this wonderful singer.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I always wanted to sing like him, but there was fear.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: I was too scared.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_03: And again, prior before I actually sang my first note, I saw you guys.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_03: I saw you guys sing the year before, and it got me so excited.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: So fast forward now I have this opportunity where I said to my singing buddy, hey, I haven't had a solo yet, but I'm going to make my own stage where I get to go on there and talk about myself, but also about an organization that I really love.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm really looking forward to the party because we're going to have tacos and cocktails and I'm going to get a chance to talk about my childhood.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_03: And part of the reason we're doing the podcast is there are a lot of really beautiful humans, but beautiful people that I've been fortunate enough to be with in the chorus.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_03: Can you talk about the chorus' openness to partner with somebody who thinks outside of the box about taking a product and selling it on behalf of the organization?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, first of all, the the the the level of generosity that even before this event, I mean, you've been so generous and so giving to this chorus, and I know where that comes from.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: And you're doing it, you know, with you know, all three of those, I would say.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um and it it's it's that it's that sense of duty, right?
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like when something gives you the ability to fill your cup and to give you your voice.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: And though you're right, you haven't had that opportunity to sing a solo yet, but you found that the course isn't about singing solos, it's about creating community and singing in commune with other voices because there's a power there, there's an energy there that is unlike anything.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: And though the audience can hear it and oftentimes feel some of it, it's not the same when you're on that stage, and that feeling is so profound that you want to make sure others have that opportunity if they want it, and to continue to do it, and so enabling that, I think it it's it's inspiring that you want to keep going and keep giving, and creating this opportunity where you're uniting your world outside of the chorus with it into one event, I think is super special.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I would love to see more of that.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think the organization wants to see more of that because a lot of times people just think, oh, it's just the shows, it's just the concerts.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's all we're doing.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: But what they don't understand is that there's every week we're communing, every week we're working, and then every day there's work that we're doing to continue this work, whether it's the work we do on stage or off.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so it it is a it is a vocation, going back to that word, that requires a profound commitment.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: And you're right, the more you pour in, the more you do receive.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: People, I think, are going to be really amazed by this event, by the creativity of this event, by the sheer risk of the event, right?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: Because I mean, you reality real is real.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: You're you're you're taking a risk of seeing, you know, I'm all for opening the doors, offering the book.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: Whoever wants it, please buy it.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: If the proceeds are going to a great place, and potentially we might sell five, we might sell 250, but you're doing it out of the kindness of your heart because you want to give.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: And in a world where it is so easy to isolate and be selfish, it is so astounding to be so selfless, and it's an important lesson we all have to learn.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: This chorus is is something it does incredible work, it really does.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: And the concerts have this ability to stir the soul in so many ways.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I have seen people who have no idea about the LGBT community.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: I see it in my mother, for example, who she's familiar, but there's always been about a boundary.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's more and more I see how her heart has opened up to oh wow, like it's not just it's not just a singing thing, it's not just a gay thing, it's not it's not a sexual thing for sure.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's it's a people thing.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: And it it's inspired her and allowed her to soften a little bit, especially with that hard of Catholic upbringing that we got, to really understand where I'm coming from.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the good we do, music is so powerful, it's so it's so universal.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: And that's exactly all you're doing here, the key thing you're doing here is helping to spread music and therefore spreading love.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_03: I want to circle back because you brought up your mom.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_03: How was it growing up for you as a creative little boy?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: So one of my favorite pieces that we have not done yet is from the New York City Gay Men's course called Unmistakable Softness, which speaks to there's a common quality amongst gay boys that as growing up, there's something tender and sweet.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I think mom always knew that and saw that, and it's hard for her to come to terms with that, but she never stifled that.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: I was very fortunate that first of all, I was raised by women, primarily.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh my mom was a single mother, dad was intermittently in the picture, but not enough to really not enough for me to give him credit on how I was brought up.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_02: But my mom, my grandmother, my aunts, they were the ones who really nurtured little Jonathan.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: And they never fortunately I was never put boundaries as to what I was.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: I also wasn't the kind of kid, like I was not the kid who was putting on dresses and you know fairy wings and all that.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_02: I was very much a quote-unquote boy's boy.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like I liked, you know, the Batman and the Wrestling and the Power Rangers.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: I liked all that kind of stuff.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: But I was just also very shy, very quiet, because I didn't know who I actually was.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, coming into you know, adolescence where I started doing the theater thing, I think that was probably the first flag, if you will, of like, oh, there's something he he's going a direction here, especially because I really didn't about face for what my future was going to be.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: Because all my life I had talked about being a scientist.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to be some sort of scientist.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: Science was what I loved, and all of a sudden it became the arts, and I was addicted.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: And suddenly I went from quietly reading books in the corner to blasting musical theater albums in my bedroom, and suddenly secrets started to really develop, right?
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: Because certain songs I couldn't like I was obsessed with rent, could loved that album, loved that show, can't play that show around mom because there's some very controversial lyrics there that would be like, What's going on?
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: you know, until secrets started to come in, then all of a sudden sexual awakening happens, and you're like, I don't really know what's going on with me.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but because I had already started doing theater, it she didn't see it as a gay thing, she just saw it as a performance thing that I enjoyed being on stage and doing these things.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, every now and then if I did something that was a little more effeminate, she would kind of like, What are you doing?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm like, it's part of the show.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like I I always had that easy out, if you will.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_02: And it really wasn't till probably till college years where it I I reached the point of I couldn't reconcile the two away from each other.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: There was a connection there.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh who my friends were, who my community was, who I identified with, it it became more and more obvious, but I never challenged her on it, probably because of fear.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, it it's tough.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm also an innate people pleaser, so uh doing so, I would sacrifice my own comfort for the sake of keeping her comfortable, and I do so with a lot of people.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's a trait that I'm working on in therapy.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um but that people-pleasing mentality delayed my formal coming out to her, even though probably by the time I I think I came out to her 23 or 24.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: But by then, it's like I already had a boyfriend, I had discovered, explored, understood what who I was, what was I about.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: I had already come out to pretty much everybody else except her.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_03: How did that go?
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_03: How was that perceived?
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it was so I did it of all days on an Ash Wednesday.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so I had we had I was on vacation from ships.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: I was on vacation from ships, and we had she was like, Oh, I'm going to Ash Ash Wednesday Mass.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Okay, I'll go with you.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: I had zero intent of doing this, and then the priest started talking about how Ash Wednesday, the beginning of Lent, where we are having to really take the time to, and I swear he said this, to come out and recognize who we are and what we've done, and start to work on that.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: And and in his context was all about our relationship with God, but he said those words, and being on like it was a whole homily all about honesty and truth and power within yourself, and I was like, I got it, I get it, okay, stop yelling at me, and so I left math, like, I have to do it.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like now, like this is like the universe is telling me now, and so I remember we were in the car, and I'm like, Ma, before you go, we gotta talk because I've not been honest with you, and she was emotional, she was hurt, but not against me per se, but hurt over.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think one of the things that we as queer people have to understand is that our parents live, they don't have a manual, so they have expectations and dreams as to what we are going to be, and that is very difficult, especially for a mother, to reconcile, because you know, I mean, we're growing in them for nine months, so she has spent nine months plus eighteen years plus whatever extra to an idea of like this is who my son is going to be, this is how he's going to grow up, this is the path I want him to go on.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: And for lack of a better phrase, I I kind of take that away from her.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think it's a punishment, I think it's an opportunity that it's like, no, life is gonna be different, it's not what you imagined it to be, but it's it there's an opportunity for you to learn from this, to grow from this, to love from this, and you as a parent have to make the decision whether you're gonna hold on to that lost dream or you're going to live a truth with your child.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so I've been very fortunate that she chose the latter.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, though there's always challenges because you know, she's at the same time, she's a tough New York City late lady who, you know, she's she's got her own ideologies, her own mental mental things that she's dealing with, and uh, you know, it's a dance that we date constantly dance, but there's so much love and so much support, and I'm seeing things chip away, and I'm finding comfort in expressing certain things.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly, probably the one thing she hasn't seen from me yet is a partner, and I think that's the major changing point for us because she hasn't had that face-to-face time with someone that I love yet, and I think that would probably be the the final boundary that we have to get through so that way she really gets it.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna manifest that for you for 2026.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_03: Love and uh dinner with the mom.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_03: I really appreciate you sharing the story about the church, about the coming out.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um I've been saying this lately.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_03: There are moments where the universe gives you signs that you're not expecting, but they're there.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_03: And it goes back to are you gonna listen to your intuition?
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_03: Are you gonna listen to that voice inside you?
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_03: There have been lots of times in my life where I didn't listen to that, that I just pushed myself to the brink.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_03: Hearing that gave me hope for anybody else who might be listening, that there are signs of when it's okay to do something, that you are safe.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of times I think that we think the worst from our loved ones.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_03: I would say that my experience has been pretty pleasant with all of my extended family, but I also recognize, like you said, it's sometimes harder for the people that are the closest to us.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: Number one, because they have their own expectations.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_03: But number two, which we have to own, is we've been lying to ourselves first and lying to them second.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_03: And while we are being truthful and honest, we can't just snap our fingers and expect them to forgive and forget.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_03: We have somewhat programmed ourselves and them that we were gonna be this way.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_03: But there just comes a point in your life where you're like, it's my life and I I want to be my authentic self.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_03: As we come to a close, I'm just grateful that I get to be in an organization with somebody like you.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_03: Again, you kind of view yourself as an extrovert.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_03: I mean an introvert, but I don't see that on the stage.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_03: I would kind of say to people that I'm an introvert.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_03: I know that they don't believe that.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_03: But again, we learn so much by seeing other people.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I know you're aware of this, but it's been really wonderful to see the courage and the vulnerability that you bring every week to practice.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_03: And your leadership has been instrumental in moving our organization forward.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm glad that I get a seat at the table every now and then.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's been a great outlet for my creativity, but for more than anything, for my spirit, for my soul to kind of blossom into the person that I am today.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_03: So as we finish up, where can people find you or see you?
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_03: Because I want them to hear you sing.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: Instagram is probably the best place for now.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh JSANs914.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: Or if not, you know, catch me uh, you know, on all on all the socials for GMCSF.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_02: I pop up there every now and then.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: More to come.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: There's some projects that I'm actually working on.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not quite ready to announce yet, but I'll put it this way.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: Next year, particularly, I'm hoping to take a bigger leap for myself.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_02: This year has been all about building me as an individual, uh, in mind, body, and spirit.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, next year, it's taking that foundation that I've built all year and going to the next level because there's more stories to tell, there's more songs to sing, and I'm I'm excited for what the future is to come for me.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you for that.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_03: This is the Andrew Michael Podcast, and Jonathan and I are signing off.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks again.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_02: Have a good day.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_03: If something in today's conversation made you recognize a piece of your own story, stay curious about it.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_03: You don't have to have all the answers.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes awareness is where change begins.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_03: If you've enjoyed this episode, make sure to follow the show.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_03: And if someone came to your mind while you were listening, share this episode with them.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Andrew Michael.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_03: Until next time, thank you for being here, and thank you for listening.