Latest / Aired Out / Dr. Rick Barnett - prescribing psychedelics in Vermont and MUCH more!

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Dr. Rick Barnett - prescribing psychedelics in Vermont and MUCH more! · Aired Out

• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Us as you.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Checked out the old new Berry Tobacco and Beer shop
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: on North Main Street right here in Burry. It is
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: packed wall to wall the brands, the flavors and the
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: deals that Central Verman is talking about. And the cooler
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: selection is absolutely amazing. We're talking down East craft siders
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: in all flavors, June Shine, tequila, marks and vodka mules, Yeah,
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: and sola and very Day one point five thc beverages,
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: good stuff. Grand opening ribbon cutting is gonna be Thursday
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: at ten am. I'll be there. I'll take you there
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: if you can't be, But it is gonna be. It's
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: gonna be fantastic. I can't wait. Happy Tuesday morning. Weather
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: is sunny, it is chilly. I think a little bit
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: of a kind of a carbon copy of yesterday, about
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  Speaker 1: fifty six or so for a daytime high mixes sun
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: and clouds, maybe more clouds than sun today like it
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: was yesterday. And then we get into the wet weather
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: for Wednesday and Thursday pretty much going to be a
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: wash out. Keeping an eye on things. But if you
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: have plans to do anything indoors Wednesday and Thursday, are
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: you day I have with me on the curvy couch,
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: doctor Rick Barnett, And first of all, welcome, my good friend.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: I am so happy to see you here. It has
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: been a very long time since you've been in here,
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: and a ton of stuff has happened.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: Never a dull moment. Welcome, I'm so happy to be back.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, JD.
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: You are a First of all, let's set this up
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: the right way for folks that may not be familiar
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: with who you are, so that when they tune in
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: and they hear you speaking, they're not going to be like, well, well,
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: hold on a second, who is this guy you are?
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: You know what you're talking about with with the subject
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: matter that we're going to go into. You're a licensed psychologist.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: You're a doctor. You're licensed in alcohol and drug counseling.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: You've got an additional master's degree in clinical psycho pharmacology.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: Did I get that right?
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: You got it pretty much right. The only thing is
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: some people get confused because when you say doctor, doctor
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: Rick Barnett, they they may think of a physician an MD.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: I have a doctor. You have a doctorate in psychology. Yes,
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: since so officially you know the title is doctor, but
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: not to confuse with a medical doctor, physician. I am
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: a licensed psychologist doctorate. Wow.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: Man, uh, you've been on aired out several times. But again,
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  Speaker 1: like I said, it's been a while. You have expanded
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: your practice to include and I'm going to say the
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: K word here because it's a hot button. In any
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: time anyone says this, it gets people's attention. Ketamine assisted psychotherapy.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: That is correct.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: Wow, that's wow.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: Very different model of treatment than people are used to,
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  Speaker 2: that's for sure.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: What is your affiliation with the Vermont Psychological Association? What
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: is your affiliation with the Psychedelic Society of Vermont.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this Vermont Psychological Association is a membership organization. It's
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: been around here in Vermont for over sixty years and
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: for the last gosh, I want to say, almost twenty years.
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  Speaker 2: I've served on their board of directors and in multiple capacities,
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: but most consistently and for the longest time the chair
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: of the Legislative Committee, so working on legislation of issues
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: in the state House, some of which we'll talk about today.
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  Speaker 2: And then the Psychedelic Society of Vermont is a separate
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  Speaker 2: organization that I co founded back in twenty twenty one
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  Speaker 2: with the surge of interest and research in psychedelic medicine
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  Speaker 2: and therapy. We needed a professional organizations, sort of informal,
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  Speaker 2: but you know, consists of healthcare professionals who are interested
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  Speaker 2: in this topic, are interested in the safe and effective
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: rollout of these new medicines, this new paradigm in mental health.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: It's a strange new world that we're entering into. It's
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: really exciting.
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  Speaker 1: We have had a lot of chat here on the
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: airwaves over the last year about the suicide rates with
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  Speaker 1: electrical alignment number one in the nation highest suicide rates,
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  Speaker 1: with the military close behind them, construction, the medical field,
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  Speaker 1: veteran suicide rates are at an all time high. Our
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  Speaker 1: general huge blanket statement here and I know that, but
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  Speaker 1: our general mental health, not just here in America but
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: in the world's pretty shitty right now. I think most
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: of us would agree on that statement, but maybe not.
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  Speaker 1: There's no as you and I have elluded in the
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: past when you've been on the air, there is no
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  Speaker 1: quick fix to the escalating mental health crisis that I
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: think and I did. I'm using the word crisis. Some
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  Speaker 1: say a mental health pandemic. What say you, what word
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  Speaker 1: do you tag on to that? In your opinion?
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  Speaker 2: All the above. I mean, I think it's fair to
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  Speaker 2: say that we're definitely seeing rising rates of suicide, depression, anxiety, alcohol,
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  Speaker 2: and substance use disorders. It's really uh, it's an area
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  Speaker 2: that has hasn't got enough attention, but seemingly in the
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  Speaker 2: last i would say ten to twenty years, there's a
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  Speaker 2: real push to bring mental health issues center stage, you know,
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  Speaker 2: competing with all the attention that we have on physical
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  Speaker 2: health conditions. Really bringing mental health, mind, body together, not
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  Speaker 2: separate entities, but working together to try to improve people's solf.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: Why is it? Why is it that we're seeing this
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  Speaker 2: rise in mental health issues? And it's you know, it's
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  Speaker 2: a combination of factors. There's not one thing. There's just
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  Speaker 2: a it's a wild and crazy world that we're we're
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  Speaker 2: entering into. I think COVID really did accelerate some of
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  Speaker 2: that attention on mental health issues. The social isolation, the
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  Speaker 2: reliance on technology. I think there's the AI revolution both
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: optimizing human functioning and stuff, but also probably having some
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  Speaker 2: negative side effects that may contribute to mental health issues.
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  Speaker 2: We've we've seen that in sort of you know chatbots
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  Speaker 2: and chat ept encouraging people to kill themselves or smoke
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  Speaker 2: crystal meth or whatever. You know, these cases, it's really serious.
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  Speaker 2: So it's also some legislation that that we were working
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  Speaker 2: on in the state House this year, a lot of
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  Speaker 2: a lot of work around AI. So there's no there's
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  Speaker 2: no one thing that's contributing to it, and there's no
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  Speaker 2: one solution. We need all the tools, we need all
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  Speaker 2: the help we can get, you know, all hands on
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  Speaker 2: deck to try to help each other.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: It's it's the battle between uh, it seems anyway, uh
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  Speaker 1: look good versus feel good. And all you got to
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: do is open up an Instagram feed for anyone, but
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: especially you get into the algorithms of young kids, and
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  Speaker 1: it's all about looking good. It's the lips, it's the
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  Speaker 1: the nose, it's the body, it's the clothes, the fashion.
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  Speaker 1: But feeling good, I think looking good is kind of
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  Speaker 1: winning right now.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I think that you know, we see
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  Speaker 2: research showing that use of social media and technology can
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  Speaker 2: have a negative impact on kids' mental health, and you know,
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  Speaker 2: partially because of that kind of thing, the outward appearance
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  Speaker 2: of you know, trying to keep up with the joneses,
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: so to speak, be as cool as an ex person,
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: and I think, you know, one of the things that happens, unfortunately,
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  Speaker 2: is that there's this massive backlash where, you know, people
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: are so freaked out by this that all of a sudden,
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  Speaker 2: it's just like, let's just ban everything. Let's just ban
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  Speaker 2: all social media, let's ban ai. And I don't think
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  Speaker 2: that's the solution either. We can't just ban these things,
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: you know, we have to find more nuanced and thoughtful
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  Speaker 2: solutions these things, not just you know, yeah, not just
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  Speaker 2: ban things. I think that's it.
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  Speaker 1: And you know what, we're going down a rabbit hole
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  Speaker 1: because this all comes down to, you know, parenting and
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  Speaker 1: making sure that you're doing a great job as an
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  Speaker 1: adult and as a parent or a parent figure to
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  Speaker 1: make sure that your kids aren't getting subjected to the
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  Speaker 1: negative side of this. And I understand it's a huge,
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  Speaker 1: deep rabbit hole. But mental health, man is it's the
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  Speaker 1: foundation of this. And it doesn't matter how good you're looking,
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  Speaker 1: if you're not feeling well, if you're not mentally as
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  Speaker 1: healthy as you could be, even if you got some
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  Speaker 1: bad shit going on in your life, if you're not
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  Speaker 1: able to navigate that effectively with help or without, you're
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  Speaker 1: losing you're losing, and it doesn't matter what you have
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  Speaker 1: for a job, car, house, doesn't matter, what your weight is,
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: doesn't matter how good you look. At some point, it's
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: going to catch up with you. In the middle of April,
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  Speaker 1: President Trump signed an executive order to kind of ease
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  Speaker 1: the research restrictions on psychedelics, including the drug i Begain,
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  Speaker 1: which we're going to talk about this morning, which is
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  Speaker 1: used in some countries to treat post traumatic stress disorder.
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  Speaker 1: He said, with the federal government opening this pathway for
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  Speaker 1: i Begain, that it will be administered to desperately ill patients.
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  Speaker 1: Those were the words that he used under the Food
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: and Drug Administration's Right to Try rule and even considered
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  Speaker 1: I began to be quoting here life saving. Did that
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  Speaker 1: get your attention middle of April?
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  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that was all over the news. The executive
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  Speaker 2: order that basically did a number of things. What it
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: actually will translate into practically still remains to be seen.
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  Speaker 2: But there were a lot of There's a lot of
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  Speaker 2: attention and energy and basically a kind of endorsement in
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  Speaker 2: a way at that level of government, an endorsement of
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  Speaker 2: psychedelic drug research unlike we've ever seen and that that's profound,
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  Speaker 2: you know, likehimer hatim. You know, independent of I guess
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  Speaker 2: who who the president is at the time, the fact
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  Speaker 2: that a president would sign an executive order like that
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  Speaker 2: is really significant. Again, what that translates into practically, we
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: don't know yet. You mentioned I Begain interesting. I Begain
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  Speaker 2: definitely showing promise for treating opioid use disorder, treating post
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  Speaker 2: traumatic stress disorder, even traumatic brain injury, with specific attention
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  Speaker 2: on veterans, which is why this this drug has garnered
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  Speaker 2: so much attention. But it's actually of the psychedelics, if
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: you consider a psychedelic which it kind of is, is
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  Speaker 2: just a unique one. It's the least studied so far.
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  Speaker 2: So in terms of the right to try laws, we
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  Speaker 2: don't even have. I think we've had some phase one
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  Speaker 2: clinical trials, and keep in mind, to get a drug
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  Speaker 2: approved you have to go through well now one, but
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  Speaker 2: two phase three clinical trials. So I Begain of all
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  Speaker 2: the psychedelic drugs, is the furthest from getting any kind
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  Speaker 2: of approval, let alone the right to try act. So
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: basically it does throw some attention on I Begain to
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  Speaker 2: let's get some of this research really going. But they
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  Speaker 2: were just citing one study out of Stanford from twenty
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  Speaker 2: twenty three, an open label study, not randomized controlled, not
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: a very rigorous study, but it just showed I mean,
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: it showed amazing results, like eighty percent of veterans who
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: received I begain had you know, a huge reduction of
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: post traumatic stress disorders symptoms, really did some profound healing.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: And so that's garnered so much attention. It made it
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  Speaker 2: into the Executive Order, and I think that's very significant,
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: but it also does a lot in terms of the
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  Speaker 2: psychedelic drug approval process.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: To get that going a little bit quicker, you say significant,
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: do you also say historic?
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  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, definitely historic.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: You know, I wasn't familiar with I begame, didn't know
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: anything about it, never even heard of it. But in
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: the story that was that came out nationally about all
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: of this, and I've pulled it up here right in
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  Speaker 1: front of me. I begain is a naturally occurring compound
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: found in a shrub native to Africa. It's been used
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: to treat depression, anxiety, addiction, post traumatic stress disorder, as
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: you mentioned, brain trauma. As you mentioned, Researchers say that
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: I began could eventually fill a gap in addiction treatment,
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: particularly for opioid tendance WOW and on a more large scale,
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: clinical trials are needed before it can be considered safe
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  Speaker 1: and effective for any condition.
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  Speaker 2: What say you, Yeah, it's a complicated compound because of
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: the cardiac risks, so they're compared to other psychedelic drugs,
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  Speaker 2: it has a slightly higher risk profile because of its
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: effects on the heart, and that's something that basically it
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: requires a higher level of clinical care. It's more expensive,
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: it's more resource and intensive, and that makes it a
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: little bit more complicated to study and to scale to
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: roll out. You know, you need to have a physician
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: on staff, you need to have heart monitoring. You know,
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: get this JD. This psychedelic experience is twenty four to
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: thirty six hours long. This is a long time that
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: you are tripping or you are under the influence of
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: this drug, and that requires monitoring throughout that whole twenty
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: four to thirty six hour period. It is no joke.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: It's very different than some of these other compounds that
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: we know about. We know about magic mushroom psilocybin, we
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: know about LSD, we know about ketemie, we know about MDMA.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: These are all compounds that have a much lower risk profile,
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: and they don't last as long in the system compared
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: to ibogain. Although they do, they still are sort of
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: longer experiences. Ketymine is a shorter one, and there's a
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: new one that people don't talk about very much. It's
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: actually involved in some of this. It's called five meo
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: DMT five methoxy dimethyl trip tomine, and that's a compound
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: that's extremely powerful, but it's extremely short, acting almost the
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: opposite of ibogain fifteen to twenty minutes. It's a very
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: short but extremely powerful experience. So you know, all these
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: psychedelic compounds, all these drugs have different pharmacological profiles, they
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: have different durations of action, very different subjective experiences. And
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: it's one of the reasons why I'm delighted to have
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: this conversation with you, is like we can raise the
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: education of people who are curious about these compounds, curious
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: about the research research, maybe getting access to them and
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: using them without knowing what they need to know about them.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: So we do need to raise our sort of psychedelic IQ,
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: so to speak, on what these compounds do, how they
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: work in the body, and how to have experiences that
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: are safe and you know, prevent you know, bad outcomes
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: or risk risks associated with them. And that's that's a
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: real that's a real issue, and I think that needs
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: to get talked about.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: So I begain schedule one.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: They're all scheduled one.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: Okay, so right up there with ecstasy, heroin caroine, Yeah, okay, cocaine.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: Well, actually cocaine might be scheduled two. I don't know.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: Is cocaine schedule too.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I actually have to look at that. Wow,
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: back in the day it was I don't think. I
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: think it's schedule one. I shouldn't say.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: That, But Americans are traveling to on regulated clinics, often
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: in Mexico in parts of the Caribbean.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, to do this. Yeah. Ambio Life Sciences was featured
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: in that movie in Waves of War on Netflix. I
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: don't know if anybody's heard of that, but in Waves
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: of War on Netflix, it's a it's a documentary showing
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: veterans going through an IBA gain treatment experience down in
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: Mexico at Ambio Life Sciences. And a friend of mine
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: actually is a co founder of that or was the
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: co founder of that operation down there, and they have
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: a good reputation. So when you say these unregulated places
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: offshore in Mexico and Costa Rica, for sure, there are
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: some bad actors out there. I don't want to say
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: that that, but but you know, some of these people
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: are setting up, you know, pretty high standards of clinical
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: care to make sure that risks are addressed and people
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: are are held, you know, are held appropriately without you know,
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: just going completely rogue.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: And we're going to talk about Vermont here obviously in
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: just a little bit. But I'm just seeing here. A
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty three review of twenty four studies including seven
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: hundred and five people called the risk of death from
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: heart problems connected to the administration of I Begain worrying
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: and showed that at least twenty seven people have died
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: taking I begain.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: And the federal government is they've got their hands full
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: trying to figure this whole thing out. Man, Just I
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: begin alone. Yeah, yeah, it was a big deal in
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: the Oval office a couple of weeks ago. Joe Rogan
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Junior was there.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: Doctor Oz, Doctor Oz.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: I forgot about him. Yeah, lots of big name health
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: officials were there. The federal government is going to be
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: making a fifty million dollar research investment into psychedelic research.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: Greg Abbott, the Texas governor, signed a bill approving fifty
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: million dollars for research just last year. FDA says that
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: three psychedelics are going to be added to the National
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: Priority Voucher Pilot program, which is kind of a pathway
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: to what dramatically review some of these drugs, really put
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: them under the magnifying class, which they'd done.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: They did that there was one random drug, believe it
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: or not, that got that special voucher. So they announced
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: that three pharmaceutical psychedelics would get a voucher for accelerated
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: progress through the approval system, and one of them was
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: a drug called methylone. Methylone is a cathanone that no
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: one's ever heard about, but this article came out in
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: the Journal of the American Medical Association recently showing promise
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: for methylone, which is somewhat similar in the subjective effects
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: like MDMA, like ecstasy, so a sort of a love drug,
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: an empathic you know, drug to treat post traumatic stress disorder,
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: fire to quiet the fear response in the brain, similar
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: to what MDMA does, so methylone, this sort of random
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: other psychedelic like molecule was included in that voucher program.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: So that was one of the other things. And also
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: what you said about the fifty million dollars that Health
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: and Human Services is supposed to allocate towards states to
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: match state funding for research on psychedelic drugs. So I
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: don't know if you know this, but I was the
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: chair of the Psychedelic Therapy Advisory Group in twenty twenty four.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: So the legislature here in Vermont set up this Psychedelic
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: Therapy Advisory Group and I chaired that group, consisting of
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: folks from UVM Medical Center, from you know, doctor Mark Levine,
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: the former Commissioner of Health, the Department of Mental Health,
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: the Vermont Medical Society, Brattleborough Retreat, and you know, we
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: determined at that time that Vermont just wanted to continue
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: to monitor progress in other areas, monitor the research. We
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: weren't ready to make an aggressive suggestion to set something
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: up here in Vermont. But now with this executive order
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: and fifty million dollars to match state funding, I think
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: the time is now to prop up a bill. As
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: Representative Brian Chena tried to do in the state House
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: this year on ibegain joining this Texas I began initiative.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, has anyone else joined Texas?
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a few other states, I think, miss Missouri
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: and maybe Illinois. I'm not sure. There's about five states
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: I think that have joined that initiative. So I think
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: Representative China was trying to get on board with that
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: that Obviously, this is the end of the biennium, so
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: that bill didn't go anywhere. But now is the time
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: I think, you know, for people in the state house, lawmakers,
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: people who believe in this, if there are federal funds
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: that will match our state funds to do something more
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: significant here in Vermont, I really hope that that happens,
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: and I'll be I'll be at the front of the
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: line trying to get that happen.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: The debate here in Vermont over Bill H two thirty seven,
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: which is the debate continues. I mean, there's a lot
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: of talk about this, but this is a bill that
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: basically gives a green light for or prescribing physicians to
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: prescribe psychedelics, prescribing psychologists.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: Psychologists, right, yeah, yeah, So switching gears a little bit
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: from psychedelics over to age two thirty seven, something that
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: I've been on aired out with you before over many years,
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: going back to twenty seventeen.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: I know, and you had your fingers crossed everything on
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: the air.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So finally the governor signed that bill into law.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: So basically what the law says is that a psychologist
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: who has a doctoral degree in psychology, who has a
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: master's degree in clinical psychopharmacology, who does fourteen months of
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: clinical rotations in five different medical disciplines, who passes a
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: national exam certifying their competency to prescribe psychiatric medications, can
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: in collaboration with a physician, prescribe psychiatric medication. And I
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: would like to point out deep prescribe psychiatric medications because
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: a lot of people think, why do these people want
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: to prescribe drugs? They're therapists. We've got enough prescribers out there.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: Everyone's prescribed psychiatric medications. We don't need yet another prescriber
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: out there just prescribeing more drugs. And that couldn't be
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: further from what this effort has been all about for
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: the last ten years. It's really about getting the prescription
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: pad in a place where the kind of prescribing that
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: needs to take place can take place. That's in the
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: context of a psychotherapy relationship with a psychologist who sees
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: you every week for forty five minutes to an hour,
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: every other week for forty five minutes to an hour,
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: gets to know you. How are you doing, how are
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: you feeling, what's going on in your life? Do you
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: still think you need to take that zoloft? You've been
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: on it for ten years, You have any sense of
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: whene you want to come off of it? Do you
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: think it's still working? Let's meet together. Maybe we can
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: come up with a taper schedule to have you come
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: off of the You've been on it for ten years,
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: you've been on it for twenty years. Do you think
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: it's time to try to come up? Because they're not
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: having that conversation in depth with a psychiatrist or a
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: nurse practitioner who typically sees them for ten or fifteen minutes,
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: maybe once a month, maybe once every three months, or
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: in the context of a primary care visit with their
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: primary care physician or nurse who sees them once a
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: month or once every six months for a primary care checkup.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: How's your medication doing? Just continue that. You know, it's
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: a checklist kind of thing, very quick visit, that's very different.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: It works for some people. That's fine, and that can
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: be appropriate. But to be able to do it in
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: the context of psychotherapy, save that person the visit to
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: the psychiatrist, to the primary care and to the psychologist.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: Just do it in one place. Go see your psychologist.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: That's the person for mental health where people really get
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: seen and heard for what they're going through, and where
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: else is that more appropriate to help them either come
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: off of a psychiatric medication or if and when appropriate,
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: try a psychiatric medication. That's what this bill has been
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: all about for a long time.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: I'm confused. We may have to dumb it down a
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: little bit for this old fella you keep saying a psychologist.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: I thought that a psychiatrist was the one that could
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: prescribe and a psychologist could not. Am I missing something.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: That historically is true? But now in Vermont and seven
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: other states in the country, psychologists with this advanced training
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: that I just told you about, a doctoral degree in psychology,
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: a master's degree in psychopharmacology, fourteen months of clinical rotations
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: in these medical disciplines, passing a national board exam to
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: show competency and prescribing. That's what I'm talking about. Psychiatrists
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: go to medical school. Psychiatrists go to four years of
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: medical school, they do a three four year residency, and
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: they're out there in the world and they're doing basically
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: biomedical psychiatric prescribing. They're not doing therapy. Eighty percent of
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: them aren't doing therapy. They're just doing medchecks. They're checking
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: in on symptoms, and they're prescribing or changing people's medications.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: In some cases, you have psychiatrists going into primary care
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: practices not even seeing patients JD, just looking at their
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: charts seeing, Oh, this person's on twenty five milligrams is
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: zoll off. That sounds good. We're just going to continue that.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: Oh this person's taking lithium. Okay, we'll just continue that. Oh,
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: this person seems like they're struggling a little bit, let's
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: add an antipsychotic to their depression medication to see if
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: that can boost. They haven't even seen them, they haven't
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: seen them, no hands on, and they just go through
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: twenty five charts in an hour. And I don't know
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: if that's good. Maybe in some cases that's really helpful.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: In terms of workflow and people getting the meds that
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: they need. In other cases, I don't know if that's
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: the best model. What about seeing a person for forty
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: five minutes once a week, once every couple of weeks
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: and making those decisions around medications in a little bit
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: more thoughtful way. That's what this is about.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: Well, why have some of the opposition groups here in
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: Vermont been tapping the brakes on this H two thirty seven.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: Well, they tried, and they tried for a decade, and
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: they eventually failed, and we succeeded, thank god. But I
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: really think the concerns the opposition points were largely unfounded, misunderstood,
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: must misunderstood. They they didn't really understand what the training
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: was all about. And then when people did go into
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: the details of what is this training? Can psychologists truly
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: learn to prescribe psychiatric medications competently without going to medical school,
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: without going to nursing school? What is this model of
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: training that they're presenting. They will say categorically, if you
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: want to prescribe psychiatric medications, this training model that you're
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: presenting sucks, and it's inadequate, and you're gonna kill patients
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: you're gonna harm patients. And if you really want to prescribe,
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: go to medical school, go to nursing school, go to
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: PA school. But the fact is is that just by
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: me listing medical school, PA school, nursing school, well, you
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: know what, there wasn't PA school at one point in time.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: There wasn't a nursing school at one point in time
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: for psychiatric prescribing, and now there are. So now there's
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: a prescribing psychologist curriculum that is just as robust as
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: these other disciplines. So why can't we present new models
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: that can show competency across the board and work together
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: in a collaborative way versus like, oh no, you're over there,
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: stay in your lane. You do therapy. You're really good
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: at doing therapy. You shouldn't do anything else but therapy
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: and assessments because that's what you're good at. If you
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: try to do anything else, you're really you know, you're
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: really unprofessional and it's going to harm people. And that's
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: just that's what physicians have done against nurses, against anybody
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: where there's a scope of practice change where they feel
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: like people who don't have their training can't do what
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: they do and that's just not true.
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: This, this is, this is not like the experiments that
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: were going on in the thirties and forties.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, you mean what I mean, like lobotomies
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: and shits. Yeah, no, this.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: Is this is this is is not barbaric crazy.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: No, no shit. These are powerful medicines in some cases,
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: some of the antipsychotics, and and there's a lot of
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: you know, you mentioned Robert F. Kennedy Junior just last
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: week that all this this attention on deep prescribing antidepressants,
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: it just came out in the New York Times. Now
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: the American Psychiatric Association is coming up with tapering models,
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: So all of a sudden, now there's an acknowledgment of
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: the fact that there has been some overprescribing. And that's
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: what this whole thing around prescribing psychologists has been all about.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: You could just as well call them deep prescribing psychologists.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: Get the education and training, learn the path of physiology,
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: learn how these medications interact with the body and with
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: other drugs, and help people make better medical decisions about
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: what they're putting into their body.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: You know, one of the comments that we have here
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: is just from Glenn Is just all dollar signs, and
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I'm assuming that what he's alluding to.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: Is prescribing psychologists want to make more money.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, either that or that. It's how does this affect
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: big pharmat Are they scratching their head saying how can
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: we get in on this?
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: Well, you would think, right, so you would think for
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: all of that, I believe Glenn's comment is spot on.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: If the comment about dollar signs is because of pharmaceutical
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: companies wanting to get more drugs out there so they
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: can sell their product, well you would would have thought
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: the pharmaceutical companies would have gotten behind our efforts as
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: prescribing psychologists to pass this legislation. We did not get
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: one dollar from any pharmaceutical company in any of this
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: states that have passed this law because they're not interested
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: in psychologists prescribing. So you know, there's no pharma conflict
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: here because we've not received any money. You know, pharma.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: Actually there's laws that have been passed to prevent pharma
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: companies from taking doctors out to dinner and giving them
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: gifts so they will prescribe their medication. Like farmer, companies
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: are definitely in it for the profit. No doubt.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: So they're still getting Christmas cards, yeah, in the mailbox.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but prescribing psychologists have had no pharmaceutical influence at all,
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: no money coming from pharma at all. And in terms
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: of like psychologists looking to make more money from prescribing,
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: if you look at the salaries of prescribing psychologists compared
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: to regular psychologists, it's a wash. There's no bump, there's
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: no major bump in salary. So we're not doing it
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: for the money. We're doing it for our patients to
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: get better care, that's all.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The folks that are tapping the brakes on what's
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: happening in framat, I think what're you're kind of saying
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: is there they need to they need to better become
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: better educated with the risks and the realities. What are
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: what's the real factual risks here and what are the
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: real realities that this is a huge shift and it's global.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: This isn't just something happened in the in the States.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: This is big man.
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, are you talking about the prescribing psychologists? Yeah, yeah,
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, because we're talking about psychedelics earlier on the show,
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: and then we're talking about prescribing psychologists. Actually, one of
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: the criticisms I got while I was fighting for this
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: was that people knew that I was interested in psychedelic
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: research and medicine, and I was pursuing prescriptive authority. So
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: people were just saying, oh, Rick, doctor Barnett just wants
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: to get prescriptive authorities so he could prescribe psychedelics to everybody.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: And the fact is that these are two completely separate,
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: separate efforts. It just so happens that they're sort of
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: colliding at the same time. But yeah, I mean there
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: are risks. I think there are risks anytime somebody takes
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: a psychedelic drug, anytime someone takes a psychiatric medication, there
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: are risks associated with it, just like there's risk taking
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: tail and all. There's risk taking ad though, there's risk
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: taking supplements. There are risks taking anything into your body.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: There are risks right are There are there risks spunking cigarettes.
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: There's risks smoking. They're drinking alcohol alcohol exactly.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: What's worse?
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: They both suck. They both have the highest rates of
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: problems associated with them. I think I think tobacco nicotine
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: addiction is probably in terms of healthcare costs and Jesus
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: addiction is just that's Nicotine's pretty tough.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: Throw a whole shitload of processed foods in there too.
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah exactly right, Yeah, we're all addicted to something.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: I think in some respects here we have bigger fish
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: to fry. Yeah, then worrying about this shit.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah exactly exactly. It's not rocket science. If you can
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: understand how the body works and how medicines work. You
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: do your master's degree in psychopharmacology, you've done six years
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: to get a doctorate in psychology, and you're working with
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: patients every day for forty five minutes at a pop.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: Like you can learn how to work with people safely
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: and effectively. The risks that have been suggested is that again,
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: psychologists don't have the capacity to learn how to prescribe
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: safely unless they go to medical school and be like
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: every other you know, discipline that prescribes meds. And that's
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: just not what we want to do. We want to
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: retain our identity as psychologists with psychotherapy first, and to
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: have this adjunctive skill, this additional skill to be able
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: to help people come off of medications or prescribe them
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: as needed, but not not like in a sort of
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: a flipping kind of way.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: But Rick, how do you how do you personally respond
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: to an email or somebody bumping into you at the
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: grocery store, or even a friend that you're hanging out
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: with who says to you, oh, yeah, Rick, there you go.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: Let's uh, let's let's fight drug problems with more drugs. Right,
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: what do you say, how do you respond to that?
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: Because I saw a little bit of that last night
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: on Facebook, but I put up a promo right that
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: you were coming on today.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: I say, well, yeah, I mean it's a legitimate, it's
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: a legitimate sort of surface level argument against why that's
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: a bad idea, But like you have to think about,
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: think about, you know, I myself actually had that opinion
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: at one point in time. I wrote an article for
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: The Vermont Digger back in I think twenty sixteen or
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: twenty four teen criticizing the uh, the push to get
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: everybody on suboxone. And I was really critical. I was like, well,
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: I don't think just prescribing suboxone to everybody as the
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: end all be all for opioid use disorder is the solution.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: It's part of the solution. But if we're investing all
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: those dollars just in prescribing this one drug. It's it's
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: not the whole thing. And I think that's the argument
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: against people who say, oh, yeah, that's what we need
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: just you know, fight drugs with drugs. No, it's delivering
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: a kind of care that offers more than just drugs.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: As psychologists, for example, is somebody who doesn't focus just
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: on the psychiatrists and the medical system, they focus on prescribing.
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: Think about psychedelics. One of the reasons why MDMA ecstasy
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: was rejected by the FDA, the Food and Drug Administration
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four was because the application to get
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: MDMA ecstasy approved for post traumatic stress disorder included psychotherapy.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: It included psychotherapy, and you know what the FDA said, Well,
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: we don't approve psychotherapy. We approve drugs. Right, So when
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: people say, you know, oh great, fight drugs with drugs,
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: it's like, well, that's what our system is set up for.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, Chuck just wrote you don't need to
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: throw a pill at everything.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't. You don't. And that's why I think
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: psychologists are in a better position. I think that's also
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: why psychedelics seem interesting because one of the promising aspects
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: of psychedelic research and medicine. Unlike your daily prozac, unlike
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: your daily lexipro unlike your daily mood stabilizer pill, your
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: daily psychmed Psychedelic medicines are delivered one time for lasting results,
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: maybe three sessions over the course of three months. That
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: has lasting effects. You don't have to take a pill
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: every day. It's not just a drug. It's about the experience.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: It's about the relationship with the therapist, the setting that
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: it takes place in. It's a totally new paradigm, not
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: just taking a pill every day. I think that's the
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: problem with the current system is that you get lexaprophy
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: primary care physician, they say, come back in a month
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: and tell me how you're doing. There's no therapy, there's
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: no follow up, there's no there's no contextual variables at all.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: There's nothing. And that's the problem. That's why this bill
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: is good. It's not just the drug. It's about the therapy.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: It's about the relationship, it's about the context.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: The Governor signed the bill hearing fromat April twenty seventh,
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: twenty seventh. What other names in our legislature have given
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: support to H two thirty seven hearing fromant.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah Topper mcfaughon just total, total champion. Without his support,
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: his helping with this bill, explaining it to his fellow
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: lawmakers Gina Galfetti also down here in Barry, those two
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: were instrumental. Without their support and their backing of this,
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: this bill would not have passed absolutely and Topper actually
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: had to step down at the beginning of April before
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: he could see this bill go all the way over
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: the finish line. He had to step down because of
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: some family issues, a long time representative here in Barry.
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: I have such a strong debt of gratitude to Representative
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: mcfaughn and Gina Galfetti for this.
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: We have a comment here. First of all, where do
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: you find a psychologist available to administer this treatment? And
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: another comment here saying you need to free your mind
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: before you can fix your mind. Psychedelics helps free your mind.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: Years of programming has got us all backwards. They made
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: us this way. The only way to fix it is
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: to free your mind and break the chains.
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: I love it whoever that is spot on. You know, change,
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: change your perspective. You know, it's not just taking a
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: drug or taking a pill or whatever. It's about it's
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: about change, it's about a new perspective.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: A funny comment I heard somebody say in a podcast
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: once was a mind blown? Is a mind shown?
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: Wow? Where do you find a psychologist to administer these treatments?
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: So the bill is so, this bill was a decade
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: long effort to finally get signed into law. And one
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: of the stipulations in the law is that it doesn't
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: go into effect until twenty twenty nine, so we've got
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: three more years before this actually goes into effect. Yeah.
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, oh boy.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: Thankfully I started this in my early forties because by
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: the time I'm sixty, I might be able to join
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: ace of prescribing psychologists in Vermont.
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: But are you eating well and staying in the gym?
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: So stick around long enough? Yes?
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: I am?
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: Why so long? Why?
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: Well? One of the other reasons why this bill passed
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: was because we got support from the Office of Professional Regulations.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: So the Secretary of State's office has a body called
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: the Office of Professional Regulation. They license something like fifty
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: professions in the state of Vermont, some of which are
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: mental health professionals nurses. So they license some of these
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: healthcare professions and they're going through this major overhaul process
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: of looking at how they issue licenses for different healthcare professionals.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: Because they're in the middle of this major overhaul process,
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: they wanted to make sure that they developed the rules
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: for this new prescribing psychologist thing in the context of
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: that overhaul, and they move a little bit slowly, so,
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: you know, was one of our concessions. It's like, look,
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: they support this bill. They did a lot of work
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: and a lot of advocacy to show the legislature that
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: this is a safe and viable model that they support.
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: So because they're going through their own internal review process,
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: we just get lumped into that and so in twenty
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: twenty nine we'll be ready to go.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: What about But what is it that you do? I mean,
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: you can prescribe some things?
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: No, can't do anything. What about KENEMYE can't prescribe kenemy
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: have I work with a prescribing provider who does a
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: medical evow and prescribes Ketymine to patients who self administer
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: Ketymine in my office.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: Different, that's very different.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't prescribe it.
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: Wow, what's your opinions on that?
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: Well, again, it's a fascinating model. You're not taking ketemine
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: every day, like you're taking year Soloft every day or
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: taking Prozac every day. You come into my office with
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: a couple of lozenges, and we've gone through several sessions
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: of preparation to explain the whole process, to understand what's involved,
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: safety measures, bathroom, physical considerations, mementos, they might bring in,
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: any experiences they might have, just to prepare for that.
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: They come into my office, they self administer these lozenges,
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: They sit on my couch for three hours. They have
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: a complete trip. They have a full, full experience and
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: internal experience with headphones on like you have on right now.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: They have eye shades on so they can't see anything,
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: and they have a very profound experience. And they do
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: it maybe once every two weeks for a few sessions.
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: It's not an everyday thing, and that has lasting effects.
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: And you're right there with them.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: I'm right there with them the whole time, just in
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: case if they get a little nauseous, which can happen
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: very occasionally, if they feel a little unsafe, because basically
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: ketamine is called a dissociated of anesthetics, So when you
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: take ketamine, you lose a sense of your body like
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: your whole body's under anesthesia, and that can be disorienting
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: for people. So they might be like, WHOA, what's happening?
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: Where am I? You know, and they might raise their hand.
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: I might hold their hand for a second just to
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: get grounded. But that doesn't happen very often. It's usually
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: a pleasant experience for people. They usually feel like they
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: come out of it, they feel refreshed, they feel I mean,
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: they feel a little woozy, but they feel like in
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: a calm, pleasant, you know, place of peace and quiet.
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: Able to drive, not able to drive, they have to
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: have someone drop them off and pick them up. Addictive,
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: It can be very addictive. Yeah, there are people that,
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: without careful monitoring, can develop problems with ketemine addiction. And
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: that's why, you know, I typically really prefer people to
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: not do ketymine at home by themselves or have access
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: to it in case they might be at risk for
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: developing a bad habit around it, an unhealthy relationship with ketamine.
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: It doesn't happen a lot, and I think some of
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: the risks of addiction are overblown, but it does happen.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: And I think Chase in the Dragon.
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: That yeah, a little bit. I mean again, I think
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: if it's done with you know, professional oversight and supervision.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: I think there's problem is you can call up a
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: company right now and do a five minute screening and
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: they'll send you a bunch of ketamine at home and
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: you can just have at it. You know. That's a model,
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: a telehealth model that for some people that works. They're
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: doing it therapeutically, but I don't think that's great. I
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: think you need to do it with a professional.
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: Glenn says, I've been taking the same crap for twenty
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: years and I don't even know if it's working anymore.
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure what the names of those those drugs are.
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: But he's got to wait till twenty twenty nine before
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: he can get prescribed psychedelics.
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: So we're confusing two different things. We don't know when
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: psychedelics are going to roll out. The prescribing psychologist thing
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: is not till twenty twenty nine. That's independent of psychedelics psychedelics.
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: That's a great question actually, leading into like what this
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: executive order that Trump signed is that are we going
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: to get medical access to something like psilocybin or MDMA
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: in the next six to nine months. We might the
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: FDA might approve a pharmaceutical magic mushroom pill that someone
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: can take in the context of a well controlled environment
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: with a therapist or two present with them, and you know,
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: for someone like Glenn, you know there's going to be
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: risk management profiles to see if somebody's appropriate for this
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: kind of treatment. And in some cases, some of the
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: medicines that people might be taking don't allow them to
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: have a psychedelic experience. But if they can taper off,
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: if they need to or taper down and still have
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: the experience, then having a professional who knows how to
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: do that is really critical. So it's not a rule
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: out if you're on certain medications to have a psycho
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: gadelic experience, but it does need to be carefully evaluated.
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: Another comment here mother nature. Mother nature is the Lord,
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: however you want to describe. It provides everything we need.
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: Our bodies were designed to absorb what Mother Nature gives
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: to us.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, there's certainly poisonous plants out there that we
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: don't want to absorb or they'll kill us. But there
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: are also there are also products in nature, like natural
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: foods and natural what we call plant medicines or fungal
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: medicines like magic mushrooms or where ayahuasca comes from, or
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: other like this iba gain is from an African shrub.
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: So this is the mother Nature that they're talking about.
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: And that's really a point of real tension in the
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: psychedelic space. Why do we need a pharmaceutical product? Why
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: do we need a medical model? These compounds have been
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: used for millennia, for centuries and indigenous cultures, and in fact,
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: there's been some you know, appropriation of various cultural practices
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: and lack of reciprocity and acknowledging indigenous cultures, whether it's
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: peyote mescalin from the peyote cactus or like I said,
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: mushrooms or these other compounds. And you know, mother Nature
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: is like the in charge of in charge of it all.
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: And so I'm somebody who, even though I'm talking very
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: much from the medical model, we need to make efforts
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: to get people access to these compounds outside of a
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: medical model. I said that outside of a medical model. Wow,
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: people think the medical model is the only way to
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: do it, it's the only safe way to do it.
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: The fact is is that that's not true. There are
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: safe ways to have these experiences outside of the you
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: know they mushrooms. People can grow mushrooms in their closet,
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: they can take it at home, but can they do
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: it safely? And can they do it therapeutically or are
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: they just you know, tripping and whatever? You know, So
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: there's just content, actual variables that people need to consider
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: for sure.
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, using it recreationally, do you do you believe that
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: that the blanket question here? But that the the the solution,
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: the fix to cancer is right under our nose, right
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: in front of us.
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: And I don't know, that's a great question. What what's
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: what's the right here right next? I know we never
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: know it's true. Yeah, did someone write that in the comments?
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: No, that's just one one that I'm I'm curious about.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: It could be. It's really puzzling that, you know. I
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: have a patient recently was diagnosed with stage three breast
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: stage three breast cancer and she was faced with this,
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: She was faced with this real quandary like do I
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: go the traditional chemotherapy, radiation root or what about all
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: these alternative methods that talk about the macrobiotic diet or
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: different things offered in Mexico that are alternative that don't
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: involve heavy doses of chemo or radiation, and she didn't
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: She honestly didn't know what to do. Some people go
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: the alternative route and get miraculous results that, you know,
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: the cure for cancers right under our nose, and then
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: other people are just like, Nope, I'm going to go
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go the chemotherapy route because that's what
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: my physician has said, that's where all the evidence says.
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: And that's where most people and that's.
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: What most people go. And I know it's hard to
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: say what you know, who's right, who's wrong. It's not
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: it's not a it's not a black or white kind
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: of thing.
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and big pharma, like Glenn is alluding to, may
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: may have the.
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: They have say in it for sure.
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: Well, and they may have the this the fix the remedy.
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: Oh they might yeah. Yeah, and they don't want to
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: fix it maybe yeah, I don't know.
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: Big business maybe yeah, big big money. Yeah. Got a
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: comment here from Joseph last night says this is a
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: big pharma, this is big farm are using the media
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: to control the narrative on drugs. I begin it's currently
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: illegal despite its well recorded history of successful treatments of
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: opioid addiction. But heaven forbid, we don't get people to
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: take their drugs. It's sad how big pharma, or how
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: badly big pharma can use the media to manipulate public opinion.
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: Also a comment here saying those who criticize this need
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: to watch the documentary series The Mind Unleashed, specifically the
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: episode on hallucinogenics.
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and also How to Change Your Mind on Netflix
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: came out of a few years ago.
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: That's amazing. I've seen them.
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: Based on Michael Pollan's book. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, there's a
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: lot of good stuff out there. Even there's a movie
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: called uh about I began I believe it was came
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: out a while ago called Gosh, It's Escaping Me. Shoot,
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: it'll come back to me. But there's another one that
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: came out of it.
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: And what's the one that you Well, first of all,
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: you told me about how to Change your Mind? I
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: watched that.
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: But fun Guy, fantastic fun Guy. That's a great one.
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: That's an old older that's from twenty nineteen. I think
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: it's dosed. Dost is the one that I think. There's
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: two dosed movies d s ed And the first one
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: was a woman who was heroin dependence, was on methadone,
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: tried mushrooms to come off of it, it was unsuccessful,
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: and then went down to Do I Begain and lied
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: to the facilitator, said that she had weaned herself down
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: off of the methadone, but she actually hadn't, so she
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: had a very bad reaction. That's why, that's why there
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: can be deaths. It's not so much only about the
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: cardiac risks. It's about accurate history taking and honesty in
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: patients reporting what are actually taking so that they facilitators
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: know what's in their bodies, making sure they're drug tested
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: to see check the levels and stuff like that. So
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: you know, I think, yeah, I think it's it's true
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: that there's pharmaceutical influences in this field big time. And
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: that's why I think we need to actively advocate both
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: for the medical model and for the decriminalization or safe
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: access models as we have an Oregon in Colorado. You know,
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: they didn't wait for FD approval and they're facilitating mushroom
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: journeys all the time in those states. Legally.
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: What what what ring through your mind when you saw
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: the recent reports, Whether you opened up the Burlington Free
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: press or you saw it online or digger or whatever
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: about the safe injection sites and the overdose prevention centers
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: that are starting to pop up in Vermont, specifically Berlin.
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know. I've had conversations with friends of mine
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: on this, and some people really support it, other people don't.
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: I don't know what the hold up is. I know
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: that the funds were allocated to the Department of Health
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: a long time ago, a million dollars to set up
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: a safe injection site in Burlington. It's been held up
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: for whatever reason. They need more money. And now there's
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: a bill, I think in the state House to try
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: to scale back on some of these harm reduction measures.
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: I'm a believer in safe injection sites, you know, talk
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: about a drug for a drug like I'd rather have
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: somebody go to a safe place with a clean needle
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: and a clean supply of drugs and have their drug
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: experience in an overdose prevention site than to have dirty
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: needles and untested products where people are overdosing and dying.
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: So I'm somebody who supports that model, but I can
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: also be neutral on it. I can understand both sides.
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: It's not the thing about all these things whether it's
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: psychedelics or proscribe being psychologists or safe injection sites. What
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: we said at the beginning of the show, JD. We
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: need all tools, we need all these options. They're not
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: going to work for everybody, right, but they're going to
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: help some people, right, And I think that's what's what's
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: at stake here, you.
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: Know, as Donna is kind of suggesting here though, you know,
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: it's like we have this going on, but we also
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: have all of these prevention measures that are happening in fromont.
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: I mean it's yeah, are we are we counterproductive here?
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: It's you know, well, Donna, I like Donna's comment. I
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: was thinking about that earlier. Actually, you know, a lot
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: of money should be allocated towards prevention so we don't
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: have these problems in the first place, whether it's kids
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: access to you know, over using video games or social
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: media or unhealthy foods. Uh. You know, there's so many
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: things that we can do for prevention, teaching mindfulness, exercises,
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: exercise itself, healthy eat, you know, socialization, socializing outdoor activities.
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: But it's so easy to get heroin, it's so easy
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: to get pot, it's so easy to start drinking young.
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, our job is to make it less attractive,
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: and it's also our job to make it seem less
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: not less accessible, but less popular. You know, there's this
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: there's this image that like, you know, alcohol, everybody drinks alcohol,
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: everybody smokes weed, everybody you know does these things, you know,
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: vapes and all that kind of stuff. If you look
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: at the data, you know, especially for young people, the
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: majority of people aren't actually doing those things. So to
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: normalize the healthy stuff and not normalize the unhealthy stuff.
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: I think that's what they did with this smoking campaign
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: over the years. They they really you know, helped kids
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: look at smoking through a different lens. Unfortunately, that's the
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: same time vaping came came by, and more there are
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: vaping because they were so successful showing how smoking, you know,
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: tobacco was bad for you and and so vaping took
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: the place of that. But I think, you know, prevention
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: can be done in different ways, and allocating a lot
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: more resources to prevention, as Donna said, is is a
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: huge part of the solution.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, we we we talk about dependency, and
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: you know it's like as as a as a parent,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: even not apparent as an adult, try to try to
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: put out there to our youth by setting an example
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: that to be addicted or to be dependent on different
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: kinds of a high sports. You looked an adrenaline rush.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: Do something that releases that chemical in your brain. Skydiving,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: bungee jumping, Yeah, motorcross get addicted to that.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: There was a guy, Oh my god, years ago was
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: when I first started this podcast in twenty eighteen, and
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: he was a Heroin addict and got addicted to skydiving.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: Did he live?
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: He not only lived, but he was thriving. And I've
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: lost touch with him, but he joked that he was
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: being more money on the high skydiving than he was
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: on Heroin rights. Wow, I'm so glad that that Chuck
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: just mentioned this because I was. I forgot about this,
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: and I was thinking about it last night, about saying
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: this to you in ice bath will do the same
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: thing ice bathing.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I do that.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: I have too, not that much. I did one two
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: or three nights ago in the river in my backyard
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: and I was singing very loudly some Italian songs that
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: I think I was making up when I got into
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: the river.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: But I've really gotten into contrast therapy recently last five
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: six years, Sauna cold plunged so again hot Chinese, Yeah,
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: hot cold, hot cold. It's talk about a.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: High I've okay, so I'm not familiar with that one. Wow.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: But the what is it that's dumped dopamine? There's those
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: There are all kinds of chemicals in your brain.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: Kinds of stuff.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's dumped.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's good for your mood, it's good for your
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: uh skin inflammation, inflammation, you have all kinds of things.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: Blood flow, all of that stuff. But the high that
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: you get, I mean, it's unbelievable.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's good training for the mind too. The cold
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: plant when you went in the river there. Yeah, like
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: to train yourself to breathe under those circumstances. You're cold
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: and you're but if you get used to it, you can.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: And so anything that stresses you out, you've got an
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: interpersonal conflict, you've got uh stress and traffic, you've got
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: whatever it is that's stressing you out in the moment.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: If you've trained yourself through these cold cold experiences to
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: just breathe for you know, thirty seconds, a minute, two minutes,
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: you you know, that can help in other areas of
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: your life.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: Sure, are you familiar with Arctic bliss?
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: No?
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: Down in Woodstock. No, our young vendor shoot the East,
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: the Vermont iceman. Oh yeah, you should check. Check.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: That's awesome.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: He knows what he's talking about. He does this all
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: the time. He's got he's got a community of ice,
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: ploy of ice bath bathers.
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: I love it.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's great stuff.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: Popular.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, fascinating stuff that we're uh, we're unpacking here. Yea fascinating.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: One thing also not mentioned is breath work. So wim
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: Hoff is a wim Hof, right, So there's wim Hoff
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: breathing he does he does the cold in the hot,
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: but he also does the breathing. There's holotropic breath work.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: There's all kinds of unique breathing exercises that you can
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: do to produce chemicals in your body, to have altered
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: states of consciousness, to release, you know, healthy energies in
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: your system.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: See Lindsey Vaughn just before she dumps out of the
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: chute breathing. Yeah, yeah, incredible, Yeah, good stuff. Man. Folks
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: that want to get in touch with you, they're looking
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: at you now, they're hearing you. I got to talk
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: to this guy. How do they do it well.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: One thing I got to make clear to people is that,
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: you know, people think psychedelics or psilocybin mushrooms wherever it's
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: legal already that you know it's psychedelic therapy is available,
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: and that's just not true. They're still waiting FD approval.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: People are doing them illegally. People have access to them illegally.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: So there is no such thing as legal psychedelic therapy
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: except for ketamine, as we talked about. So people need
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: to know that you can't just call me up and
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: be like, hey, I want to have a mushroom experience
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: in your office. I just don't. I can't do that
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: because it's not legal. But I think if people wanted
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: to learn more about it, there's actually a group here
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: in Barry coming up this weekend at the Barry Library,
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: Spark in Vermont dot org. It's a new group, an
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: offshoot of the Psychedelic Society of Vermont. They started, this
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: group of women started it's called the Society for Psychic Access,
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: Research and Knowledge, and it's really just raising education about
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: psychedelics to the two communities going across all these Vermont libraries,
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: spark INVT dot org. That is a great group. They're
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: they're doing an event in Barry. Look it up and
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: maybe put it in your uh put it in your
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: show notes. It's this weekend, I believe, uh.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: And at yeah, I think so.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, I forgot. I think it's Saturday mid morning
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: or something like that. So yeah, people can reach out
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: to me on LinkedIn or Twitter X. I'm on Instagram.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: Look me up. That's the best way to reach me.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: All right, It's that simple. That's simple, all right, man. Jeez,
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: I love halfing you on here.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: Bro.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: I just I really do you. You bring so much,
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: so much.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: Some of it's a touchy subject, right. People brings up
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: a lot of controversies. People make some good points and
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: they have some real concerns about whether it's psychedelics or
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: prescribing see chiatric medications, all the things that we've talked about.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: They conjure up a lot of associations for people, and
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: so to be able to handle those conversations, understanding where
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: people are coming from and recognizing that there isn't one
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: one right or wrong way. There's so many variables involved,
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: so let's keep the conversation going.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, be respectful and have an open mind to what
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: other people think or feel, and we all have different
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: life experiences. Some of us are coming from family members
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: who have overdosed on drugs where or have drug and
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: alcohol addictions and it's ruined their family. There's some real
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: sensitive hotspots.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: Yes, very much, so I recognize that I work with
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: it every day.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: Amazing my clinical practice.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Doctor Rick Barnett, amazing. I'm so glad I met you.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: I'm so glad you've been on this podcast so many
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: times and appreciate you coming in here again.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: Thanks Jadie.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: If there's anything that's going on, any developments or anything
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: that is worthy of passing on to the audience here
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: on aired out, please let me know.
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: I will.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: All right, Thanks brother, so much. Amazing, amazing conversation this morning. Listen,
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: stay well tomorrow morning, Sweethearts and Heroes day here on
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: the podcast. Remember to stop in Effecto Homes today three
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: point fifty River Street, month Pillier. They're giving away one
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: hundred dollars gift certificate to a different restaurant every single
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: week and it is absolutely free to sign up, but
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: the deadline is coming up on Friday, so get on it,
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: don't wait. Thanks so much again to doctor Rick Barnett
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: our guest this morning here in the aired out podcast,
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: Stay well, God bless between between T