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Canon Crossfire and the case for biblical consistency · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

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Now let's get started.
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Today's conversation is with retired corporate attorney who
2:08
has become a passionate advocate for biblical literacy
2:11
and spiritual courage, Matthew Mark McWarter, about his
2:15
book, Canon Crossfire.
2:19
Does the Protestant Church blow up the case
2:21
for Christianity?
2:23
What an incredible, enticing title that makes you
2:26
just want to dig right in.
2:28
So, Matthew, thank you so much for being
2:30
here with us today.
2:31
Thank you for joining me on the Tenpenny
2:33
Files.
2:34
Thank you.
2:34
God bless.
2:35
Happy to be here.
2:36
You know, before we dig into the entirety
2:39
of the book, why don't you start by
2:41
explaining what a Christian biblical canon is and
2:44
what that means?
2:47
Yeah, so the canon is it, it means
2:50
the word means something like a ruler.
2:52
Um, you have a a rule, the table
2:54
of contents of the Bible that determines what
2:56
books go into the Bible, what what books
2:58
are in the New Testament, what books are
3:01
in the old testament?
3:03
And so the idea of a Christian biblical
3:05
canon is that master list that tells you
3:07
what books go in it.
3:09
There are differing opinions on what the which
3:11
of what that book uh what the list
3:13
of books should include.
3:15
The Orthodox have a broad canon, the Catholics
3:17
are somewhere in the middle, the Protestants have
3:19
a more restricted canon.
3:21
And the question is uh from uh you
3:23
know, from an outsider's perspective, what who's who's
3:24
right about this?
3:26
Who has the books that Jesus Christ was
3:29
really preaching from and passing down?
3:31
That was a question I had um coming
3:33
from it, as I say, as an outsider.
3:35
What happens though in Christian circles is that
3:37
if you're raised Christian, you come from some
3:38
tradition that already told you what the Bible
3:40
is.
3:42
So what you run into all the time
3:43
is that people, you know, well, I just
3:45
believe the scriptures.
3:46
Well, as an outsider wondering if I should
3:48
believe any scriptures, the question is you know,
3:50
what scriptures, as much as what whether or
3:52
not to believe.
3:54
So it's a very important question from an
3:56
outside perspective that sort of gets assumed by
3:59
people within Christianity because they were just handed
4:01
this by their parents or their church and
4:03
told this was the Bible.
4:06
But if you take a step back, you
4:07
got to ask, well, how do you know
4:08
that's the Bible?
4:10
What shows me that that's the real Bible,
4:12
that it goes back to the teaching of
4:14
Jesus, that it was handed down by the
4:16
apostles, that it was written by these people,
4:17
and that the church passed it on authentically
4:19
and uh, you know, without any changes.
4:22
I think that I would say that most
4:24
people don't have any idea about the history
4:26
of the Bible.
4:28
They don't have any idea of how it
4:29
was written.
4:30
They don't know of all the changes that
4:32
were made from like the 1500s forward.
4:34
And for me as an outsider, it cracks
4:36
me up.
4:37
But you will hear from people all the
4:40
time saying, you know, uh our Bible goes
4:42
back to the beginning, those other churches changed
4:44
everything.
4:46
I hear that from every church.
4:48
Wow on both sides of these issues, but
4:50
like the Catholics say the Protestants change it,
4:51
the Protestants say the Catholics change it, the
4:53
Orthodox say the Catholics change it.
4:54
You know, it's like there's a huge amount
4:57
of disconnect about even what the original history
4:59
of Christianity is.
5:01
And when I start exploring that with people,
5:03
I find that they don't have any idea.
5:05
They were just told this is the Bible
5:07
and our Bible goes back to the beginning.
5:09
So it is it is to me an
5:11
astonishingly um important subject as an outsider to
5:14
ask, but then not when you're talking to
5:16
the insiders, they seem to think it's the
5:18
least important subject of all.
5:21
And I find it find it bewildering.
5:23
Well, you know, we defined what Christian biblical
5:25
canon was because you know that's what your
5:27
book is about, canon crossfire.
5:29
I think another definition we should start with
5:32
for people is what is the apocrypha?
5:34
Yeah, so the apocrypha is a term that
5:37
all the churches use, but they don't mean
5:39
the same books.
5:41
So, in the context of my book, the
5:43
apocrypha that we're going to talk about are
5:44
the books that the Catholics accept.
5:46
So they don't call them apocrypha, they call
5:48
them their old testament.
5:50
The or they sometimes call it the Deutero
5:51
canon to separate it from what the Protestants
5:52
accept.
5:54
But the the Protestants label these books apocrypha.
5:58
That's sort of a conclusory insulting term for
6:00
the books, saying that they're fake, that they're
6:02
not real, that they're they're not the true
6:04
scriptures.
6:06
Um, that's the question we have to ask
6:08
ourselves.
6:09
So it's sort of a conclusory label, but
6:11
my book was really written towards Protestants, so
6:13
I use the label Apocrypha to refer to
6:15
these books, but it's actually that's it, it's
6:17
a term that had that means sort of
6:19
fake books that don't really belong in the
6:21
Bible.
6:23
And in the this context, that's the question
6:25
we're actually asking ourselves is is should these
6:27
apocrypha these Catholic apocrypha come into the Protestant
6:29
Bible?
6:31
You know, your book is an incredible undertaking.
6:34
I mean, seriously, and thank you for sending
6:36
me a hard copy of it.
6:38
I appreciate your little note that you put
6:39
in there.
6:40
It was really nice.
6:41
It's like um, you know, how long did
6:43
it take you to do this?
6:45
Well, before you say that, what was your
6:47
premise that motivated you to dig into this?
6:50
As a as an attorney, you can see
6:53
the attorney in you going through the analysis
6:55
of this, because I have other uh people
6:58
on my show that were you know prosecuting
7:00
You know, prosecuting attorneys that got into be
7:01
attorneys that got into being that became pastors,
7:03
that became pastors, and their whole sermon sounds
7:04
and their whole sermon sounds like a cross
7:06
like a cross-examination when you talk to them.
7:06
examination when you talk to them.
7:09
And you can see the attorney training in
7:09
And you can see the attorney training in
7:12
your brain as you go through this methodically.
7:12
your brain as you go through this methodically.
7:15
What motivated you to do this and what
7:15
What motivated you to do this and what
7:17
questions were you trying to answer when you
7:17
questions were you trying to answer when you
7:18
started it?
7:18
started it?
7:20
Yeah, so let's go all the way back
7:20
Yeah, so let's go all the way back
7:21
to the beginning.
7:21
to the beginning.
7:23
I wasn't really raised Christian, did not read
7:23
I wasn't really raised Christian, did not read
7:25
the Bible, pray, or understand the Christian story,
7:25
the Bible, pray, or understand the Christian story,
7:27
but I had been named at Matthew.
7:28
but I had been named at Matthew Mark.
7:30
I was named after the first two books
7:31
of the New Testament.
7:33
So I had major medical problems.
7:35
I was very lucky to survive.
7:37
And I just wanted to read the books
7:38
I was named after.
7:40
I at this point, this was not spiritual.
7:42
I I literally had piles of Western cowboy
7:45
novels that my grandfather had left me.
7:47
And I I viewed this as the same
7:48
thing.
7:49
I got to read those books before I
7:50
die.
7:51
Um so I just start I I go
7:54
on to Amazon and I go to buy
7:56
myself a Bible so that I can finally
7:58
read the thing, and I realize there's thousands
8:00
of Bibles on Amazon.
8:03
I mean, you again, you have completely different
8:05
lists of what books should be in a
8:07
Bible within the Protestants and the Orthodox um
8:09
different churches disagree on what the Bible should
8:11
be and what should be in the in
8:13
the Bible.
8:15
So you actually, those are just sort of
8:17
three umbrella differences, but then there's micro differences
8:20
within two of those three um categories.
8:22
Then you get into different translations, then you
8:24
get into arguments over whether or not you
8:27
have you you should really have a broader
8:29
New Testament that includes a bunch of books
8:32
that mainstream Christians would say were fake, but
8:34
that scholars and others are trying trying to
8:36
say should be viewed the exact same way.
8:39
Um, and then you get into these debates
8:41
about the Old Testament, as I said, and
8:43
and what books should be included.
8:44
But sometimes you get that same skeptical argument
8:46
of, well, we should include all the scraps
8:48
of paper from history as if they're all
8:50
the same.
8:52
So, you know, because to the skeptic, they're
8:53
all fake.
8:54
Um, you know, including the ones that mainstream
8:56
Christians accept.
8:58
So that, like, you know, you'll find these
9:00
collections of 2,000 books of the Bible.
9:02
Um, that's not what any mainstream version of
9:03
Christianity accepts, but that's what I could find
9:05
on Amazon.
9:07
And anyway, I didn't know what to buy.
9:10
So as you can see behind me, and
9:11
as you you saw reading my book, I
9:13
mean, I just bought them all.
9:14
I piled them up, and I started reading
9:17
Matthew chapter one across all these different Bibles,
9:20
all these different commentaries from all the different
9:23
denominations to understand what the Bible says.
9:26
And I would just read it across all
9:27
of that for one week, and then I
9:28
moved on to the next week to Matthew
9:29
chapter two.
9:31
And it took me five years to read
9:32
the New Testament.
9:34
So this was a huge undertaking as it
9:36
you know grew and developed.
9:38
And the whole time I was reading it,
9:40
I only did this because I started finding
9:41
it fascinating, right?
9:43
I found it interesting.
9:44
I I understood the Christian story.
9:46
I started wondering, is this really true?
9:48
And so I didn't invent the legal concept.
9:51
I piled up books like Lee Strobel's case
9:53
for Christ or Josh McDowell's evidence that demands
9:55
a verdict.
9:57
The the books that show you the evidence
10:00
that that proves that Christianity is true, that
10:02
Jesus Christ really existed, because there's all sorts
10:04
of skeptics who deny that, that we have
10:07
the real story of who he was and
10:09
what he said, because they denied that.
10:12
And um, you know, that that story has
10:14
been passed down correctly through it throughout time.
10:16
So they established that case.
10:19
What happened to me as I was reading
10:21
that stuff and what leads to this research
10:23
is I realized I was reading two completely
10:25
different stories.
10:27
And one of them was that on the
10:30
New Testament, you should accept the New Testament
10:32
because the early church learned from the apostles,
10:35
passed down the true authentic teachings, and we
10:37
find that in the evidentiary record.
10:40
There are these councils that are held that
10:41
vote for the New Testament.
10:43
There are these canon lists which lift the
10:44
list of the books, and they include the
10:46
books of the New Testament.
10:48
So there you go.
10:48
There's the proof.
10:50
Okay, I got that.
10:51
But then I was still asking the question
10:52
of what Bible am I supposed to be
10:53
reading.
10:55
And and between Christians, Protestants and Orthodox, that
10:57
is mostly a dispute over the Old Testament.
11:00
And all of a sudden, I got a
11:02
completely different story from the Protestant side, which
11:04
was well, yeah, there were these early canon
11:06
lists, and yes, there were these council votes,
11:08
but they don't really count.
11:10
We shouldn't trust them.
11:11
Um, you know, they weren't accurate.
11:13
These people didn't really know what the true
11:14
apostles taught, etc.
11:16
And I'm reading it like, what is this?
11:19
You you just contradicted this other case.
11:21
So that's where the crossfire came to me
11:23
is that I have these two cases that
11:25
are in conflict, and I try to explain
11:27
to people.
11:29
I seem to be the first person to
11:31
have recognized the importance of this conflict and
11:33
gone through the work and done their done
11:35
the research on it to show that the
11:37
evidence for the new and the old testament
11:39
ended up being very similar.
11:41
I don't really know what the Protestant response
11:43
to my the issues I raised in my
11:45
book is.
11:47
I read their scholarship, I piled it up
11:48
all around me.
11:50
What I couldn't find was an explanation that
11:51
says, okay, this is our explanation on the
11:53
old testament.
11:55
This is our explanation on the new, and
11:56
this is why those two conflicts aren't really
11:58
real.
12:00
I couldn't find that.
12:02
All I found was books, you know, one
12:03
book on the New Testament, one book on
12:04
the Old Testament conflicting.
12:06
And that's where I tried to lay this
12:07
out for people and show it to people.
12:09
Um, I I don't answer the question for
12:10
anyone.
12:12
I just want people to recognize that when
12:14
you you look into this, you'll find a
12:16
canon list from an early church council that
12:18
lists the books of the Bible.
12:21
You'll find the New Testament discussion saying, Well,
12:23
we ex this is this is clear evidence
12:25
that the New Testament was firmly accepted early
12:27
in the history of Christianity.
12:30
We have great evidence showing that that we
12:32
had already um determined that these were the
12:34
true books and all the other books were
12:36
fake, etc.
12:38
Well, then you look at the old testament
12:40
and they'll say that that exact same canon
12:42
list was wrong, and these people didn't know
12:44
what was really passed down and didn't understand
12:46
what they were doing.
12:48
And it's just a very it's a shocking
12:50
conflict to encounter it.
12:52
And that's where I that's why I did
12:53
my research.
12:55
That's what I wanted to show people was
12:56
what the evidence really says, how this conflict
12:58
existed.
12:59
It didn't take me long to write the
13:00
book.
13:01
It had been my whole life of uh
13:03
being a lawyer to do these sorts of
13:05
things to do a massive research project and
13:07
summarize it for your client.
13:09
You know, what that wasn't too hard.
13:11
The hard part was the five years of
13:13
sort of getting into this question and ask
13:15
it, and I say this too.
13:18
I only did this research for me.
13:20
Um, you know, I wanted to know the
13:21
answer.
13:22
Uh, is Christianity true?
13:23
And if it is, what what Bible should
13:25
I be reading and what church should I
13:26
be going to, et cetera.
13:28
Uh so I did this research for me.
13:30
My book is just putting it out there
13:31
for other people that everyone now has the
13:33
benefit of the research.
13:34
Go make your own decisions, but at least
13:36
know what's out there.
13:37
That's what I give to people sort of
13:39
on a silver platter to uh show them
13:41
all the evidence that they can see it.
13:43
So, what is the conclusion to that then?
13:45
Which Bible should you read and which church
13:47
should you go to?
13:48
Or what did you decide for yourself?
13:51
Yeah, so for myself, I ended up Catholic.
13:54
My view of the this question is that
13:56
I don't have a good explanation for why
13:59
Christianity would be true if I can't trust
14:00
Christianity would be true if I can't trust
14:01
these early councils and these early um uh
14:02
these early councils and these early um uh
14:04
early fathers, as they're called the early fathers
14:04
early fathers, as they're called the early fathers
14:06
of the church.
14:06
of the church.
14:09
If they were lying to me about the
14:09
If they were lying to me about the
14:11
Old Testament, which is what uh a lot
14:11
old testament, which is what uh a lot
14:12
of the Protestant claim ends up being, that
14:12
of the Protestant claim ends up being, that
14:14
they were mistaken, that they misunderstood.
14:14
they were mistaken, that they misunderstood.
14:16
You know, it's it's simple to say that
14:16
You know, it's it's simple to say that
14:18
they were mistaken, but the fact is the
14:18
they were mistaken, but the fact is the
14:19
words on the page say we got this
14:19
words on the page say we got this
14:21
from the apostles.
14:21
from the apostles.
14:23
You know, we this was handed down.
14:23
You know, we this was handed down.
14:24
If you're telling me that I can't trust
14:24
If you're telling me that I can't trust
14:26
that person when he says that on the
14:26
that person when he says that on the
14:27
old testament, you can't then ask me to
14:28
old testament, you can't then ask.
14:29
trust this guy when he says that he
14:31
got Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John from the
14:32
Apostles.
14:34
The same.
14:35
I don't know the resolution of that.
14:37
That's my book is sort of an open-ended
14:38
question.
14:39
I would say that I I know many
14:41
Protestants that have read my book, they love
14:42
my book, and virtually all of them in
14:44
the end ended up changing their mind about
14:45
these books.
14:47
They they view them as much more legitimate
14:49
than when they started.
14:51
Um, whether that makes them scripture, whether it
14:52
enters your Bible, whether you change the church
14:54
is another question.
14:56
But um, it is possible to be Protestant
14:58
and accept these books.
15:01
Though the Lutherans, for example, sort of accept
15:03
these books, they put them in a different
15:05
category um at the in a different section
15:07
of the Bible, but they leave it to
15:09
the individual to make choices about what they
15:11
do with the books, etc.
15:14
So there is a way to be Protestant
15:16
and not reject these books, but there is
15:18
another stream of Protestantism which adamantly rejects the
15:20
books.
15:22
And that's that's the part that I I
15:24
honestly have trouble understanding what the explanation would
15:25
be.
15:27
Again, I understand your reasoning for saying, well,
15:29
these people were fools, they were ignorant, they
15:31
were stupid, they were wrong.
15:33
Okay, now let's go talk about the New
15:35
Testament where you just told me to trust
15:36
these people.
15:38
That's the part where I have a problem.
15:40
Is like I I read your explanation.
15:42
It's it's just that these two things are
15:44
in conflict.
15:45
You've got to give me a better story,
15:47
and that's what I'm trying to, you know,
15:49
sort of push people in that direction of
15:50
let's look at the evidence and then then
15:52
talk, because after you look at the evidence,
15:54
you realize that there is this conflict, this
15:55
crossfire.
15:58
You know, I think this is such an
16:00
important discussion because of the books that are
16:02
left out of the Bible, like uh the
16:05
Maccabees and Baruch, and you know, those different
16:07
things like that.
16:10
And that, you know, a lot of Christians
16:12
are just they just dig in their heels
16:14
that this 66 books is the word of
16:17
God is the holy, you can't change a
16:19
dot or a diddle, you can't change anything
16:21
about it.
16:23
This is it.
16:24
And even from the time I was uh
16:27
a kid, I mean, I was I was
16:29
brought up Lutheran, and then um as time
16:31
went on became more, you know, I'm I'm
16:34
mostly non-denominational now and just a good solid
16:36
Christian believe Bible believing person.
16:39
Um, but even when I was a little
16:41
kid, I used to say to my mom,
16:43
how can this be the only book ever?
16:46
I mean, you don't even look at the
16:48
extra books as like just additional information, like
16:50
Enoch and the Book of Jubilees and books
16:52
like that is like, you know, if I'm
16:54
reading a book about this about Queen Elizabeth,
16:56
wouldn't I want to read a book about
16:58
her her um the person who did who
17:00
who made her clothes you know, wouldn't it
17:02
just add something to the story about Queen
17:04
Elizabeth if I read a book about her
17:06
tailor, you know, and think wouldn't it just
17:08
be value added?
17:11
No, man, my mom was like, no way,
17:12
you know.
17:13
And it's like, and also, you know, you
17:16
got this English version, you've got 27 different
17:19
English versions, and that was translated from Latin
17:22
and Greek, and it was an oral tradition
17:25
for a thousand years.
17:28
I mean, wait a minute.
17:30
You mean you can't this English word here
17:31
can't be changed?
17:33
It wasn't something else.
17:35
So, you know, I I so appreciate your
17:37
work because I've had those same questions since
17:40
I was a little kid asking questions about
17:42
how can this be the absolute known word
17:45
of God?
17:47
And I think even if it is, I
17:50
found when I was, as I say, reading
17:52
all these different translations, all these different commentaries
17:54
on the translation lane, I found that far
17:56
more informative about the one book I'm supposed
17:59
to be concerned with, like Matthew, right?
18:01
So reading everybody's different ways of looking at
18:03
it sort of gives you different facets to
18:06
a jewel, is how I thought of it.
18:08
Like, you know, you're seeing the full thing.
18:11
Um, anyway, I I find the denominational fighting
18:13
uh sometimes a little bizarre on that nature,
18:16
because to me, you should read all of
18:18
them and then make your decision, not just
18:20
read the one that you're being handed.
18:23
But that's my view.
18:25
The book aims to prove that the early
18:28
church, the early Christian church aimed, uh accepted
18:31
the apocryphal books, and that this acceptance was
18:33
mainstream for 400 years, and then suddenly it
18:36
wasn't.
18:39
What you yeah, so first off, uh, on
18:42
two books, the evidence is unanimous.
18:45
Um, there wasn't anyone in the early church
18:48
objecting to these books until a fellow named
18:50
Jerome um appeared around 400 AD.
18:54
Um, that that is lost on a lot
18:56
of people that that was the acceptance, and
18:58
and I have a free preview of the
19:01
book at my website, which details this, but
19:03
there is no doubt that two of the
19:06
books were absolutely accepted uh early on in
19:08
the early days of Christianity.
19:11
What the evidence is for the rest, I
19:13
think it's also shows it.
19:14
But you know, you can at least start
19:15
getting into a discussion.
19:16
But on two of them, there's no doubt.
19:18
The second thing that I do throughout the
19:20
book is I compare the evidence for the
19:22
New Testament versus the Old Testament.
19:25
So if you're going to tell me that,
19:27
you know, Jerome's objection means that these books
19:29
weren't really accepted in the first 400 years
19:31
because this one guy objected.
19:34
Well, if any one person objected to a
19:35
book of the New Testament, what am I
19:37
supposed to do?
19:39
And so what I found is that people
19:41
are using, you know, we all do this.
19:43
I'm not being judgmental.
19:44
Um, we all see the moat in the
19:46
other guy's eye and and ignore the log
19:47
in our own, right?
19:49
I think people, when they're talking about these
19:52
books have a very unfair standard of what
19:54
acceptance is and what early was.
19:57
So what happens is when they're talking about
19:59
the new testament, they'll say, Well, you know,
20:00
look how early this is.
20:02
We have this evidence from 300 AD.
20:05
Um, you know, well, 300 AD is a
20:07
hundred years before Jerome.
20:09
That means that we have really early evidence
20:11
for these other books, don't we?
20:13
Um, you know, we have a lot of
20:14
evidence.
20:15
We have, you know, look at we have
20:17
quotes from 17 fathers or from 250 different
20:19
times that fathers quoted a book of the
20:21
New Testament.
20:24
Doesn't that show that that was accepted early?
20:26
Well, okay, let's look at how many times
20:28
people quoted these extra books, how many how
20:30
many fathers did that and make these comparisons?
20:33
To me, the fair comparisons, it's no longer
20:34
arguable.
20:36
I mean, it's simple math.
20:38
Um, it's the same number of fathers, it's
20:39
the same number of quotes, and frequently it's
20:41
the same people.
20:42
There are books of the New Testament and
20:44
books of the Old Testament that are quoted
20:46
by the exact same f group of fathers
20:48
in the early church.
20:50
So you're not even discussing different people, like
20:52
numbers of people, you're actually discussing the exact
20:54
same set of people in some cases.
20:57
Like it's stunning how the evidence actually compares
20:59
when you do the work and take a
21:00
Compairs when you do the work and take
21:00
look at it.
21:01
a look at it.
21:02
That's what my book is.
21:02
That's what my book is.
21:03
I did the work.
21:03
I did the work, I'm just showing it
21:04
I'm just showing it to people.
21:04
to people.
21:05
There are ways to track um who said
21:05
There are ways to track who said what
21:07
what in the early church.
21:07
in the early church.
21:09
There are these online databases.
21:09
There are these online databases.
21:12
A lot of this work would have been
21:12
A lot of this work would have been
21:13
hard to do before the modern era.
21:13
hard to do before the modern era.
21:14
That's one reason why I don't think I
21:14
That's one reason why I don't think I
21:16
was able to find a book like this.
21:16
was able to find a book like this.
21:17
I had to create it.
21:17
I had to create it, but it it
21:18
But it it did become possible with the
21:19
did become possible with the internet, and that's
21:20
internet, and that's why I assemble it for
21:21
why I assemble it for people.
21:21
people.
21:23
But it is a there is a way
21:23
But it is a there is a way
21:24
to know that you've tracked down all the
21:24
to know that you've tracked down all the
21:26
quotes that you found everything.
21:26
quotes that you found everything.
21:28
So I show people how I did that.
21:28
So I show people how I did that.
21:29
I
21:29
I show what I found.
21:31
You can read about what I found.
21:33
That's that's about half the book.
21:35
You can read what I actually found because
21:36
I give you the quotes and all the
21:37
evidence directly.
21:39
And if you want, I'm showing you where
21:40
I got it from.
21:41
You can go double check double check.
21:44
So there's no trust.
21:45
You don't need to trust me at all.
21:47
I just want people to look at that
21:48
evidence and see it.
21:49
And as I say, you know, if you
21:51
saw it, there's no argument.
21:52
Two books were accepted in the first 400
21:55
years, and the other books meet the standard
21:57
of the New Testament over 400 years.
22:00
So it's really a question of, as I
22:02
say with the canon crossfire, why exactly am
22:04
I going to trust the New Testament when
22:06
you tell me about how important this evidence
22:08
is from the first 400 years when these
22:10
other books meet it and you tell me
22:12
not to trust it?
22:15
I've often wondered why or how or who,
22:17
maybe.
22:19
I mean, the who is probably easy enough
22:21
to find out.
22:22
But why did certain books get included and
22:24
others didn't?
22:26
Why did they say the Maccabees was crazy
22:29
or the this Jubilees or Enoch, particularly the
22:31
first and second book of Enoch, or like
22:33
the book of Mary Magdalene or the book
22:35
of Thomas, that those were, you know, no,
22:37
they didn't, those weren't the inspired word of
22:40
God.
22:42
It's like, who made those decisions?
22:44
Yeah, so you're you're blurring two things to
22:46
be clear on.
22:48
First off, look, so Maccabees is accepted by
22:50
the Catholics and the Orthodox.
22:53
And they, you know, I was reading two
22:55
different versions of the story.
22:57
I was hearing that Catholics added these books
22:59
later, and then the Orthodox followed them.
23:01
That was the Protestant version of the story.
23:03
And the Catholic and Orthodox say no, the
23:05
Protestants that the church had always been accepting
23:08
these books, and the Protestants deleted them.
23:10
And I had two stories.
23:12
I want to know who was telling the
23:13
truth, who wasn't.
23:14
Uh, I did not find it a difficult
23:16
inquiry.
23:17
The Catholics and the Orthodox were honest about
23:19
that, and the Protestants had not been that
23:21
there is uh, you know, a council of
23:23
Florence that comes before Martin Luther.
23:26
It's 80 years before Martin Luther is even
23:28
born, where the Catholics and the Orthodox are
23:30
fighting over the books of the Bible, and
23:32
they say outright that they have already accepted
23:34
the Maccabees already had by this time.
23:36
But that that's still, you know, 1400 years
23:38
after Christ.
23:39
Maybe they were added earlier.
23:41
So then I do my research all the
23:42
way back in the early church.
23:44
No doubt about it, two Maccabees and one
23:45
Maccabees were accepted in the first 400 years
23:47
of Christ.
23:49
They weren't just accepted, they were preached non-stop.
23:53
That that was a martyr church.
23:55
People were you, you know, people were joining
23:57
Christianity, knowing that they might be tortured and
23:58
killed for joining it.
24:00
It's a radically different church in this stage.
24:04
And the early church was preaching to them
24:06
the story from two Maccabees of a woman
24:08
with seven sons, and she has to watch
24:10
all seven of her sons be tortured and
24:12
killed in front of her.
24:14
This was a very uplifting story to these
24:15
people that you know, why did these children
24:17
do it?
24:19
Why was the mother watching it?
24:21
And the answer is because the Christianity is,
24:23
or or in this case, because Judaism was
24:25
true, that God really, you know, really does
24:27
take care of you.
24:29
He takes care of you in the afterlife.
24:30
It doesn't matter what happens to you in
24:31
this life.
24:32
That's what people who would be martyred, the
24:35
preacher were saying to his congregation, the people
24:38
reading this was, you know, read the book
24:40
of two Maccabees, read this story, hold fast
24:43
to the faith, etc.
24:46
They're preaching this as scripture to their people.
24:49
And um, you know, that's that's right there
24:51
in the historical record in a shockingly, you
24:54
know, uplifting and spiritual way.
24:57
That's what I'm reading.
24:58
And then you hear claims that no, no,
25:00
no, these books were added by the Catholics
25:01
in the Middle Ages, and like uh that
25:03
is not what happened.
25:04
Um, so again, I just think people need
25:06
to get back to what the facts were.
25:08
You know, Martin Luther and John Calvin had
25:10
other reasons why they didn't like two Maccabees.
25:12
They list out their reasons, they talk about
25:13
them.
25:15
But the historical claim that no, no, no,
25:17
those were never accepted, and the Catholics added
25:19
them later is not really what those guys
25:21
were saying, and not really what people today
25:23
should be believing.
25:25
And it's it's kind of um impacting, I
25:27
think the discussion.
25:29
But anyway, that's two Maccabees.
25:31
As you mentioned, there's New Testament Apocrypha, um,
25:33
which are you know, the gospel of Thomas,
25:35
the gospel of Mary Magdalene, like you said,
25:38
there's old Testament Apocrypha, because there's a book
25:40
of Jubilees, the book of Enoch that are
25:42
not accepted um by the Orthodox, let alone
25:45
the Catholics, let alone the Protestants.
25:47
Um, as to who made those decisions, those
25:50
decisions seem to have been made early, that
25:53
there was a winnowing down, uh, you know,
25:55
and kind of no surprise that you know,
25:58
not every book that any Jew had ever
26:01
written would be accepted as truly divine inspired
26:03
scripture, and there were a lot of conflicting
26:06
documents out there about who Jesus Christ were.
26:09
It's kind of kind of like reading about
26:11
you know um Albert Einstein or something, maybe
26:14
today, but you know, you hear all you
26:16
see all these quotes online like is that
26:18
a real quote from Albert Einstein or not,
26:21
you know, like there's a lot of fake
26:23
stuff going on in the early years of
26:25
Christianity, and so these councils and these candlists
26:28
are Christians coming together to say these are
26:30
the ones that we all agree are true.
26:32
The other ones, maybe we still debate, maybe
26:34
we don't, but we don't view them in
26:37
the same light as these books.
26:39
These are the ones we all agree are
26:40
true and are authentic to the real Jesus
26:42
Christ and the real apostles.
26:44
So there is again, as a skeptic looking
26:46
into this, I didn't have any trouble with
26:47
the evidence for the New Testament.
26:49
I thought the way that that came together
26:51
with the councils and all that evidence was
26:53
a very persuasive case.
26:54
The problem I had was being told a
26:56
different story by Protestants when I looked at
26:58
the Old Testament.
26:59
That that's where my book comes from.
27:01
But the the story of how Christianity came
27:03
together, I think is a very powerful one.
27:05
I think it wins the case as long
27:08
as in legal terms, you don't um impeach
27:10
your own witness when I start asking about
27:12
the old testament and telling me that I
27:15
can't trust these witnesses that you're telling me
27:17
to trust on the new testament.
27:19
So that that's where my concern came in.
27:22
But the evidence for why it winnowed down,
27:23
you know, in the early church, I think
27:25
is very solid, actually.
27:26
But but as you we noted earlier, there's
27:29
good reason to still read those books.
27:31
Um, you know, they still existed, they still
27:33
impact what everybody is saying.
27:35
But that does, you know, that's different reading
27:37
them is different from taking them as scripture.
27:39
But very good.
27:40
Well, this is so interesting.
27:42
Oh my gosh, I could sit and talk
27:43
to you for hours about this.
27:45
But right now, at this particular second, we're
27:46
gonna have to take a quick break for
27:48
our state for for our sponsors for America
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29:00
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29:01
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29:02
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29:06
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29:08
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We've got more to talk about with Matthew
29:26
Mark McWaterer about his book Canon Crossfire.
29:29
Does the Protestant Church blow up the case
29:31
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29:33
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35:16
Well, welcome back, everyone.
35:16
Well, welcome back, everyone.
35:18
Today's conversation is with a passionate advocate for
35:18
Today's conversation is with a passionate advocate for
35:21
biblical literacy and spiritual courage, Matthew Mark McWaterer,
35:21
biblical literacy and spiritual courage, Matthew Mark McWaterer
35:25
and hit about his book, Canon Crossfire.
35:25
and about his book, Canon Crossfire.
35:28
Does the Protestant Church blow up the case
35:28
Does the Protestant Church
35:30
for Christianity?
35:32
Let me tell you just a little bit
35:33
more about our guests today.
35:35
Matthew McWarter is a retired corporate attorney whose
35:37
life was radically transformed by a near-death experience,
35:40
a box of Bibles, and the relentless grace
35:43
of God.
35:45
Once an atheist and legal skeptic, when Matthew
35:48
McWarter faced this medical crisis, his one is
35:51
wondering that he went through his recovery that
35:53
haunted him.
35:56
I've never read the books I was named
35:58
after.
35:59
This question haunched uh haunted him and launched
36:02
him into a journey that would change everything
36:04
for him and for those of us that
36:06
are reading his incredibly researched book.
36:08
What began again as a skeptical courtroom style
36:11
investigation into the foundations of Christianity became a
36:14
full-blown conversion?
36:17
Matthew McMarterer didn't come to faith through emotion.
36:21
He came through evidence and today is a
36:23
passionate advocate for biblical literacy.
36:26
His message is clear.
36:27
We are losing the American church, not because
36:30
the world is too dark, but because the
36:33
church has been dimmed by its own light.
36:36
Notably, all the proceeds from the writing of
36:38
his book, and when you purchase his book,
36:40
are all of the writing, all the proceeds
36:42
are donated.
36:44
This is not marketing, it's a mission.
36:47
And man, is it ever a mission?
36:48
Matthew, thank you so much for being with
36:50
us today.
36:51
And thank you for your incredible, incredible work.
36:54
Thank you.
36:55
God bless.
36:55
Yeah.
36:56
No, I part of the you know, the
36:57
story there is, you know, I have these
36:59
map massive medical problems, and I launch on
37:01
this journey.
37:02
I just wanted to get this work out
37:04
for everybody else to see it because it
37:06
was I viewed as such an important question.
37:07
And I did all this work on the
37:08
research.
37:09
And I was haunted by the fear that
37:11
I would die before I got it out.
37:13
So I am grateful to God that he
37:14
kept me around.
37:15
Uh so now everyone can mooch off my
37:16
work.
37:17
Um, because I was like, I did way
37:18
too much.
37:19
No one should ever have to do this
37:20
again.
37:21
And I, you know, I I truly honestly,
37:23
I wanted to buy this book.
37:26
I I want I wanted for my own
37:28
sake to know what this evidence was and
37:29
and be able to address the question uh
37:31
of who was telling me the truth about
37:33
the Bible and and is this really a
37:35
true story, etc.
37:37
And I couldn't find the book, so I
37:39
had to do the research myself.
37:40
So that's why I went down this road,
37:42
and my book is the reason that I
37:43
hope no one else ever has to do
37:45
so again.
37:47
You know, you're the title of your book,
37:50
Does the Protestant Church blow up the case
37:52
for Christianity?
37:54
Did you answer that question in your book?
37:56
Yeah, so my view is that that Protestants
37:59
would lose the case for Christ.
38:01
So if you go back to Lee Strobel
38:03
and others, they you know, the case for
38:04
Christ.
38:05
Here we are.
38:06
Look at all our evidence for Christianity.
38:08
I don't think the skeptical answer to that
38:10
is you don't have enough evidence.
38:12
Uh, I think the skeptical answer to that
38:14
is okay, congratulations.
38:17
You piled up all this evidence.
38:18
Now let me ask you about the old
38:19
testament.
38:20
And if you start answering questions, and your
38:22
answer is, well, those books were never really
38:25
accepted in the early church.
38:27
Okay, that's a factual claim that they were
38:28
never accepted.
38:30
I can pile up the evidence that shows
38:32
that you say is not enough to prove
38:34
that these books were accepted in the early
38:36
church and show that that's the same as
38:38
the evidence you used for the new testament
38:40
to show me that they were accepted in
38:42
the early church.
38:44
You just contradicted your own case.
38:46
You just disproved your own case.
38:48
That is what Protestants would actually be doing.
38:50
Um, they would be asking you questions about
38:52
can I trust this canon list?
38:54
You know, oh no, no, no, no.
38:55
That that canon list was wrong.
38:57
We don't defer to the Pope and the
38:59
bishops and their canon lists.
39:01
You know, you you know, you can get
39:03
a certain kind of Protestant screaming and yelling
39:04
about this stuff.
39:06
You know, we never defer to those people,
39:07
they are in charge of me.
39:09
Okay, what did you just tell me about
39:10
the New Testament?
39:11
Well, the canon list from the early church
39:14
councils clearly identified the new, you know, like
39:16
this is in direct conflict.
39:18
And in my view, if you're not on
39:21
your toes, you're going to defeat your case.
39:23
The question my book leaves off is is
39:25
there a better explanation?
39:27
Like, is there an explanation that Protestants can
39:29
give me?
39:30
I never thought of one, or maybe my
39:32
journey would have been different.
39:34
I've not heard one yet, but it's still
39:35
out there.
39:36
I mean, the evidence is what it is.
39:38
What is the explanation?
39:40
Um, to say why you would accept one
39:42
of these stories for the new testament while
39:43
rejecting the one for the old testament when
39:45
the evidence seems to me to look to
39:47
be the same.
39:49
And um, you know, I still have, as
39:51
I say, haven't heard a real good explanation
39:53
for why I would distinguish between the two.
39:55
And that so if you ask me, the
39:56
answer is it does blow up the case
39:58
for Christ.
40:00
I honestly think a neutral judge would say
40:02
you failed to prove uh what Lee Tro
40:04
Lee Strobel set out to prove.
40:06
It's not to say that the case for
40:07
Christ can't be won, it's just got to
40:09
be won by somebody, in my opinion, who
40:11
says, yes, those books came from the earliest
40:12
church.
40:14
Yes, they were accepted by the earliest church.
40:16
Um, you know, maybe you distinguish the books
40:18
for some other I think of it as
40:21
a theological reason of saying, you know, for
40:23
the following reasons, we don't include those in
40:25
our Bible, but that's not a question of
40:27
you attacking the early church evidence and saying
40:29
the early church never accepted them.
40:32
That's reasons why you don't accept them.
40:34
And you you might be able to distinguish
40:36
it on that grounds, but I think you
40:37
have to answer the question when you're on
40:38
the stand of did the early church accept
40:40
these books.
40:42
Yes.
40:43
And if you're not willing to answer that,
40:44
uh, I think you're in a lot of
40:45
trouble.
40:47
Wow.
40:48
Well, with all the research that you've done,
40:49
and you said it took five years to
40:51
get through the new testament.
40:53
What surprised you the most?
40:55
Uh, I was shocked by this early martyr
40:57
church, I think, more than anything, because when
41:00
you meet Christians, you know, and I encountered
41:02
innumerable Christians in the course of my life.
41:05
And never once did I encounter the sort
41:07
of Christianity that I saw in the early
41:08
church.
41:10
And part of that is the constant um,
41:13
not quite fear, fear is not the quite
41:16
the right word, but the acceptance of martyrdom
41:18
that people were joining a church knowing that
41:21
they might be tortured and killed.
41:24
Um, so why did they do that?
41:26
They did it because they thought it was
41:26
true.
41:27
And it is that belief in the truth
41:29
is all anybody was caring about at the
41:30
time.
41:31
It was all they they preached.
41:33
They didn't preach, uh, you know, come down
41:35
to the church on Sunday because of our
41:36
beautiful singing or our good schools or the
41:38
basketball program for your son or any of
41:40
this stuff like you get from a modern
41:42
Christian.
41:44
The answer was come down to the early
41:46
church because it's true.
41:47
And oh, by the way, and this actually
41:48
happened.
41:50
Um, at one point, an emperor issued a
41:51
decree.
41:53
If you if you we're gonna be outside
41:55
your church on Sunday, if you come, we're
41:56
going to execute you.
41:58
People went to church.
42:00
Um, you know, that level of we go
42:00
Um, you know, that level of we go
42:02
to church on Sundays as Christians because this
42:02
to church on Sundays as Christians because this
42:04
is true, was you know, in the early
42:04
is true was, you know, in the early
42:06
church.
42:06
church.
42:08
And you know, that is just so radically
42:08
And, you know, that is just so radically
42:10
different than the Christianity that I was reading
42:10
different than the Christianity that I was reading
42:12
about in these much more happy go lucky
42:12
about in these much more happy go lucky
42:14
modern books.
42:14
modern books.
42:17
And I personally found it strengthened by faith
42:17
And I personally found it strengthened by faith
42:19
in the end because I made a decision
42:19
in the end because I made a decision
42:21
to join a martyr church, right?
42:21
to join a martyr church, right?
42:24
You know, if that is the end, do
42:24
You know, if that is the end, do
42:25
I really believe this so much that I
42:25
I really believe this so much that I
42:26
would do that?
42:26
would do that?
42:28
My answer is yes, I do.
42:28
My answer is yes, I do.
42:30
Um, I kind of wonder about the people
42:31
who didn't join it that way, like how
42:33
you know what what happens when things go
42:35
dark and and bad things start happening.
42:37
I, you know, will they stick with it?
42:39
Do they really believe deep down, et cetera?
42:41
I don't really know the answer to that,
42:43
but I do believe that Christianity would be
42:45
greatly strengthened if people got back to that
42:47
early church approach of focusing on the truth.
42:50
Because if I asked you back in the
42:51
day, you know, what are you doing on
42:52
Sunday?
42:54
And your answer was, oh, I go to
42:55
church, you should join me because we have
42:57
this beautiful singing.
42:58
I mean, my answer was just oh, okay,
43:00
yeah, yeah, sure.
43:02
You know, like I'm not joining your cult
43:04
because of your singing, uh, was not going
43:05
to happen.
43:07
But imagine if that person had responded instead,
43:09
I go to church on Sundays and so
43:11
should you because it's true.
43:13
And now let me show you how it's
43:14
true.
43:15
I would have taken that very seriously, and
43:17
things might have been very differently.
43:19
I think Christians should get back to that.
43:21
I truly think there's there's dividends to uh
43:23
uh get from that sort of approach.
43:26
And I and I hope we all do
43:28
in the future get back to a focus
43:29
on truth as much as the fact that
43:31
God is good, he's also true and uh
43:33
focus on that.
43:36
Do you think that do you think that
43:38
when um Catholics read your book versus Protestants
43:41
read their book that they're gonna what's gonna
43:44
be the what's their brain gonna do with
43:47
that information?
43:50
So the first thing, the craziest response I
43:52
get from Catholics when I would show them
43:53
the book was no one's ever going to
43:55
read this, no one reads this level of
43:57
scholarship except scholars.
43:59
And I was saying, actually, Protestants read these
44:00
kind of books all the time.
44:02
That's Lee Strobel's case for Christ.
44:04
That's Josh McDowell's evidence of the demands of
44:05
verdict.
44:06
I mean, those books sold in the millions
44:07
of copies.
44:08
People um eat those up.
44:11
Um, I my book is designed to basically
44:13
just supplement those and complete the evidence to
44:15
do the evidence for these extra books and
44:17
see where those stand and make the comparisons
44:19
to the case those fellows are making.
44:22
So that was that's one piece of uh
44:24
weird Catholic versus Protestant disconnect is that Catholics,
44:27
because they trust the church, um, you know,
44:29
it's sort of a church-based religion, they don't
44:32
necessarily look into the evidence themselves first.
44:34
They just say, Well, I I'm here because
44:36
the church tells me the story is true,
44:38
not because the Bible, um, you know, the
44:40
Bible is sort of secondary to the church
44:42
or co equal with the church, whereas on
44:44
the Protestant side, the Bible is primary, right?
44:47
You're a Bible-based Christian.
44:49
Um, so there's there's more of a research
44:50
culture over there.
44:52
The second thing is that I think Catholics,
44:55
as I said from the way back to
44:57
the beginning, but they ex they accept the
45:00
same story that Protestants and Orthodox say, which
45:02
is, well, we were there from the beginning,
45:05
uh, everybody else changed it late, but they
45:07
never looked at the evidence themselves.
45:10
So I think it's a bit of eye-opening
45:11
experience for them to see what the early
45:13
church evidence is.
45:15
Um, you know, ultimately I think they would
45:17
come away being happy with how much evidence
45:19
there is, but they would find that it
45:22
was that, you know, Protestants raise good points
45:24
about the fact that there were some disputes,
45:26
that the evidence is not entirely consistent, etc.
45:29
I think that's true.
45:30
I think the Catholic response to that is,
45:32
well, that's also true about the New Testament.
45:34
Um, you can't you can't pretend that it
45:35
was all unanimous on the New Testament and
45:37
and only highlight the existence of disputes on
45:39
the old testament.
45:41
But I think the Catholics would also come
45:43
away with an understanding that there were disputes
45:45
that when they sometimes don't recognize that there
45:47
were disputes.
45:49
Um, but so far, every person of every
45:51
faith and no faith has liked my book
45:52
when they read it.
45:54
My book is just a a matter of
45:56
assembling the evidence for people to look at.
45:58
I show you what I found, I don't
46:00
hide who I am, et cetera.
46:01
But I'm just laying it out for people,
46:03
and I'm giving you the evidence to read
46:06
yourself and double check me if you want.
46:08
Um, so no one's been offended by it,
46:09
no one's bothered by it, and everyone has
46:11
really loved it.
46:12
It just is raising questions and asking what
46:14
is the answer, like what you know, what
46:16
is the answer now that you've looked at
46:17
the evidence.
46:19
Um, so it, you know, I I people
46:21
come at it from different angles, but they
46:22
all seem to end in the same place.
46:24
My book has nothing but five-star reviews uh
46:27
on Amazon, and uh you know, people have
46:29
all loved have all faiths have loved it.
46:31
So uh hope people will check it out.
46:33
You mentioned that people joined the early church
46:35
knowing that they could be killed or tortured
46:38
or both.
46:40
And you know, uh I there's there's growing
46:43
um Christian movements all over the world, and
46:46
a lot of the Christians in other places
46:49
like China and different countries in Africa and
46:51
um North Korea are terribly tortured for their
46:54
faith.
46:57
In fact, I just um I just wrote
46:59
a substack on that over over Easter time.
47:02
And there's uh an organization called Voice of
47:04
the Martyrs that I support and all the
47:06
different things that, you know, the the terrible
47:08
things that happen around the countries, and you
47:09
know, I think the three most at-risk countries
47:11
right now.
47:13
The first one is North Korea and then
47:15
Libya and then Yemen.
47:17
I'm not sure about the Libya's number two,
47:19
but Yemen is number three, that of what
47:21
they do to torture their Christians, and they
47:23
they still are growing by leaps and bounds.
47:26
So they believe that this is true.
47:28
Um, but Americans don't believe that persecution is
47:30
going to come or that we're going to
47:33
have to get back to that level of
47:35
belief and true in the truth of what
47:37
the gospel is, you know, what that Jesus
47:40
came, died, rose again, you know, did those
47:42
things for us.
47:45
You know, I don't think that Americans have
47:47
any much of an appreciation for this whole
47:50
martyrdom for Christ at all.
47:53
Um, what would you say to kind of
47:56
get people back into that early Christian church
47:58
believing that we're just not going to church
48:00
to be entertained and you know, have music
48:03
and and firebombs and you know, all the
48:05
different things that they do.
48:08
What do you think will make help to
48:10
make that transition transition for our country?
48:13
Sad to say, but I think the transition
48:16
is going to happen whether anyone likes it
48:18
or not, because it certain certainly seems like
48:20
the main cultural trend is anti-Christian out there,
48:22
um, growing and growing.
48:25
And I I kind of think we're going
48:26
to get into a world where being Christian
48:28
is not necessarily seen as a good thing
48:29
and a benefit for people.
48:31
I think, you know, for a lot of
48:33
people historically, um, you made friends, you made
48:36
connections, no one held it against you, you
48:38
know, why not be Christian?
48:41
I think if in the future you're making
48:43
enemies outside of your church when you identify
48:45
as a member of the church, when um
48:47
people might not hire you, um, you know,
48:50
when attacks might occur, etc.
48:52
Uh, you know, I I kind of think
48:54
we may find out that a lot of
48:56
people stop going to church and don't want
48:58
to uh, you know, remain Christian because they
49:00
Remain Christian because they they don't have that
49:00
they don't have that grounding that it's true,
49:01
grounding that it's true, and that's why we're
49:02
and that's why we're here.
49:03
here.
49:04
So I actually think it's kind of coming
49:04
So I actually think it's kind of coming
49:06
no matter what.
49:06
no matter what.
49:07
But as far as uh individual Christians who
49:07
But as far as uh individual Christians who,
49:09
you know do believe and and think it's
49:09
you know, do believe and and think it's
49:11
true, et cetera, I I truly from the
49:11
true, et cetera.
49:13
bottom of my heart tell you go back
49:14
I I truly, from the bottom of my
49:15
to the beginning and prove it to yourself
49:15
heart tell you go back to the beginning
49:17
that it's true, because every time I have
49:17
and prove it to yourself that it's true.
49:19
doubts, all I have to do is remind
49:19
Because every time I have doubts, all I
49:21
have to do is remind myself of all
49:21
myself of all the work I did, all
49:22
the work I did, all the research I
49:23
the research I did.
49:24
did.
49:25
And I'm like, how on earth can you
49:25
And I'm like, how on earth can you
49:27
be stupid enough to doubt this again?
49:27
be stupid enough to doubt this again?
49:29
Um
49:29
Um, you know, but I am stupid enough
49:31
to doubt it constantly.
49:32
But you know, I remind myself of that.
49:34
It's like once you've done that, you have
49:36
the proof, you know the proof, and you
49:37
can keep going back to that.
49:39
But if you don't do that, if for
49:41
some reason you're sort of scared or not
49:43
willing to go back and do that, that's
49:45
almost telling you that deep down you don't
49:47
think it's true, that you you don't think
49:49
you'd win the case for Christ if you
49:51
went back and researched it, etc.
49:53
That's to me, that's kind of scary.
49:55
I don't think uh, you know, that's a
49:56
good way to live.
49:57
Uh, I think everybody should be researching it
49:59
and you know, coming out stronger in the
50:00
end because you did prove it and you
50:02
do have the proof, and now you know
50:04
it and you could keep going back to
50:05
that.
50:07
Wow, that's really a strong statement.
50:09
And I really hope that you're true, or
50:11
that what you say is true, because you
50:14
know, times tough times are coming for Christians,
50:16
and it's prophetic.
50:18
It's it's it's what was anticipated, what's been
50:21
anticipated and people need to get more grounded
50:23
in what they're believing, you know, what they
50:25
really are.
50:27
And there's so much skepticism out there.
50:29
I interviewed an art a biblical archaeologist a
50:32
couple of weeks ago that wrote a book
50:35
about the archaeological proof for people in the
50:37
Bible that actually that it isn't a myth,
50:40
it isn't just a uh a mythical book
50:42
or a fiction book.
50:45
It was just put together, but that they
50:47
actually have archaeological proof that these people existed,
50:50
and there's five different criteria that they use
50:52
to prove that this artifact is belong belongs
50:55
to this person and that they were real
50:57
and alive during that period of time.
51:00
And I think that your book has taken
51:02
on uh a similar type of analysis to
51:04
prove that what was happening at that time
51:06
and what they were saying is really really
51:08
part of the truth.
51:11
Did I summarize exactly?
51:12
Yeah, no, no, and that's exactly correct.
51:14
So, what what goes on with the skeptic
51:17
is that the skeptic is anti-Christian and he
51:19
holds the Christian evidence to a completely different
51:21
standard.
51:23
So if you re-ground the discussion in okay,
51:26
what is authentic archaeology?
51:28
Uh, you know, whatever it is, you know,
51:30
into ancient Egypt, for example.
51:32
What what is that archaeology?
51:34
What are their roles?
51:34
What is accepted?
51:35
Let's compare it to the Christian evidence and
51:37
see where it stands.
51:38
You can change minds among skeptics.
51:40
That's the case for Christ, is sort of
51:43
showing that my book is doing the same
51:45
thing of saying, you know, here's the evidence
51:48
that you know, if you're anti these extra
51:50
books, anti-the Catholic apocrypha, um, you may be
51:53
judging that evidence unfairly.
51:55
So let's look at the evidence that you
51:57
accept for the New Testament and compare it
51:59
to the evidence for the extra books.
52:00
Let's see what they say.
52:01
To me, that would clear up an awful
52:03
lot of confusion and misunderstanding very quickly.
52:05
And it's the exact same approach that we
52:07
ask of non-Christians, and the exact same thing
52:09
that we should be doing, which is hold
52:11
the evidence to the same standard, be honest,
52:13
take a look at both of them at
52:14
the same time and see where you end
52:16
up.
52:18
And I it again, it's it's generally my
52:21
view that if anybody walked through this evidence,
52:23
it it becomes unar inarguable, in part because
52:26
some of this is just mathematical, some of
52:29
it is just you know, dates and time.
52:31
You know, you'll find someone saying that something
52:33
in the new testament.
52:34
Look how early this, you know, uh statement
52:36
is about the book of Matthew in the
52:38
historical record.
52:40
You know, we we find that in whatever
52:42
year to 212 AD.
52:43
We find the statement.
52:44
Well, that same person said something else about
52:46
these extra books in 212 AD.
52:48
So 212, we we've grounded ourselves.
52:50
212 is early, not late, early.
52:53
And you know, but if you don't have
52:55
that ground, then you'll find people saying, Well,
52:57
that came 200 years after Christ.
52:59
That's so long.
53:00
That's not being honest with the evidence.
53:02
You got to make a fair comparison, a
53:03
fair understanding of it.
53:05
And that's that's what my book is is
53:07
just setting uh frequently I use I call
53:08
them jury exhibits.
53:10
I'll use charts and just show on two
53:11
sides of the page.
53:13
This is what you said about the new
53:14
testament, this is what you said about the
53:16
old testament.
53:17
They don't match, just lining it up and
53:19
and trying to show people that so that
53:21
you can make the honest fair comparison and
53:23
keep yourself from being biased and unfair to
53:26
the evidence.
53:28
So in the last couple of minutes that
53:30
we have here together, Matthew, today, you know,
53:32
we've just covered just barely skimmed the surface
53:34
on what this book is about.
53:36
I mean, it's like 500 pages, small print
53:40
packed full of evidence and documentation.
53:44
Um, why would you tell people that they
53:45
really shouldn't buy this book and not only
53:47
just buy it and have it on the
53:49
shelf, but that they should use it to
53:50
dig into the evidence.
53:52
What's what's your personal sell on what's your
53:54
clothes as an attorney on for evidence that
53:56
you put together in this book?
53:59
Yeah, so I view the book as sort
54:00
of half and half.
54:01
Half the book is me walking through the
54:03
evidence and showing people, like I said, these
54:06
jury exhibits as I show you the comparisons.
54:08
I I have a background in statistics, I
54:10
show you the statistical analysis, I put all
54:11
that together.
54:13
The other half of the book is what
54:15
I'm acting is the actual evidence.
54:17
So it is showing it to you.
54:18
If you don't trust my analysis, here's what
54:20
the actual evidence is.
54:22
You can do it.
54:22
That's where the fine print comes in and
54:24
doubles the length of the book and makes
54:26
it hard to read, as you say.
54:28
Um, and then the third level of the
54:29
book is that I show you where I
54:31
got it so that you can double check,
54:32
you don't have to take a word I
54:33
say for granted, just go go look at
54:35
it into it yourself.
54:37
But I'm trying to walk people through that
54:38
and just show what it does.
54:39
So people who want to can just read
54:41
the book on that surface level.
54:43
It's you know, then you're not talking about
54:45
a 500-page book, you're talking about a 200
54:47
to 300 page book, it's a narrative story
54:49
as I'm just walking you through it.
54:51
Um, it's actually what uh my audiobook read
54:54
reader did for my audio book.
54:56
People have loved that.
54:58
Um, and you know, just walking through the
54:59
story of what I found.
55:01
If you're not actually the sort who has
55:03
to double check every word I had to
55:04
say, because that's what the other half is
55:05
for.
55:07
Yeah, that's what some people do.
55:09
It's like they can't and I don't hey
55:11
that that's what those people should do.
55:13
Um, I understand.
55:14
Uh, you know, don't trust me too far,
55:15
but because I lay all that out for
55:17
you and I show you how to double
55:18
check me, I would hope you could trust
55:20
me in this one instance.
55:21
But I I do lay it out there
55:22
for people.
55:24
Um you know, whatever kind you are, whatever
55:25
amount of time you have, you can you
55:27
can just read half the book or you
55:28
can read the whole thing.
55:30
That's a compelling closing argument for why people
55:32
should put crossfire canon on their shelf because
55:34
it's uh it's also a reference book, it's
55:36
something that you would use over and over
55:38
again.
55:40
It's not just like uh reading a novel
55:41
that you just kind of like a one
55:43
and done.
55:44
It's something that you would refer back to
55:45
over and over again.
55:47
So I really think this is a uh
55:49
a marvelous research book for people that really,
55:52
you know, either want to need to be
55:54
convinced, want to be convinced, or want arguments
55:57
to convince others, you know, like people that
55:59
in a in a pastor situation or even
56:00
In a in a pastor situation or even
56:01
a lay pastor situation.
56:02
a lay pastor situation.
56:04
So thank you so much for your work
56:04
So thank you so much for your work
56:06
and thank you so much for putting that
56:06
and thank you so much for putting that
56:07
together and spending the time to do it
56:07
together and spending the time to do it
56:09
for us.
56:09
for us.
56:10
And I want to thank all of our
56:10
And I want to thank all of our
56:12
listeners or people who have come here and
56:12
listeners or people who have come here and
56:13
listened to us today.
56:13
listened to us today.
56:14
There's so much more that we could have
56:14
There's so much more that we could have
56:15
talked about for this.
56:15
talked about for this.
56:17
So that means that we is a reason
56:17
So that means that we is a reason
56:18
that you need to go get this book.
56:18
that you need to go get this book.
56:20
You can find it at our store at
56:20
You can find it at our store at
56:22
bookstore.drtempedi.com, bookstore.drtempity.com, where we compile all of the,
56:22
bookstore.drtempity.com, bookstore.drtempity.com, where we compile all of the
56:24
put all of our author's books in there
56:25
put all of our author's books in there
56:26
so it's easy for you to find whether
56:27
so it's easy for you to find what.
56:28
you're listening to this to live or you're
56:31
listening to it sometime in the future.
56:34
So I'm going to close out with one
56:36
of my favorite verses from the Bible.
56:37
I close all my podcasts with, which is
56:39
Romans 12, 12.
56:41
Rejoice in hope, be patient in trouble, and
56:43
be persistent in prayer.
56:45
Remember God lean into God.
56:46
He'll never let you down.
56:47
He's always there, right there with you because
56:48
he said so, and he's a man of
56:49
his word.
56:51
We'll see you tomorrow or the next time,
56:52
right here at 3 p.m.
56:54
Eastern on the 10penny files.
56:56
Have a good rest of your day, everybody.
56:57
Goodbye and God bless.