Latest / QUESTION EVERYTHING / The Cost of Pretending You're Okay: with Jamie-Lynn Sigler

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The Cost of Pretending You're Okay: with Jamie-Lynn Sigler · QUESTION EVERYTHING

0:03
Speaker 1: No one has all the answers, but when we ask
0:05
Speaker 1: the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths,
0:11
Speaker 1: closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist
0:16
Speaker 1: Danielle Robe, and each week, my guests and I come
0:19
Speaker 1: together to challenge the status quo and our own ways
0:22
Speaker 1: of thinking by daring to ask what if, why not?
0:28
Speaker 2: And who says? So?
0:30
Speaker 1: Come curious, dig deep, and join the conversation. It's time
0:36
Speaker 1: to question everything.
0:41
Speaker 2: Hello.
0:41
Speaker 1: I hope you had a beautiful holiday weekend, A great
0:44
Speaker 1: fourth of July. I spent it in Chicago with my
0:48
Speaker 1: parents and my brother. My dad's birthday is on the third,
0:53
Speaker 1: and so I usually come home for this weekend and
0:56
Speaker 1: it's just like such a nice time to be in
0:58
Speaker 1: the Chicago suburbs. Don't know if you've ever been here,
1:01
Speaker 1: but it's so green. It's calm, and it's green. And
1:06
Speaker 1: I don't know if this happens to you, but I
1:08
Speaker 1: sleep so well in my childhood bed. I guess I
1:12
Speaker 1: just feel like fully relaxed and like somebody else can
1:16
Speaker 1: hold the bag, if that makes sense. Anyways, I want
1:21
Speaker 1: to get into today's episode. I think that there are
1:25
Speaker 1: moments in life when we become experts at carrying things
1:29
Speaker 1: that no one else can see, right, we carry fear,
1:33
Speaker 1: and a lot of times we're walking around carrying grief
1:36
Speaker 1: and shame. We carry these stories that we've told ourselves
1:40
Speaker 1: about who we have to be in order to be loved,
1:44
Speaker 1: to be accepted, or to be successful, and if we're
1:48
Speaker 1: not careful, those stories can become so familiar that we
1:52
Speaker 1: mistake them for who we actually are. You know, my
1:56
Speaker 1: mom has so many great sayings. I think maybe it's
1:59
Speaker 1: a Dutch thing. There's so many that actually don't even
2:02
Speaker 1: translate into English. But one of hers that I recall
2:05
Speaker 1: often is that if you wear a mask long enough,
2:08
Speaker 1: it becomes your face. And I didn't really understand what
2:11
Speaker 1: she meant entirely until twenty eighteen. You've heard me talk
2:16
Speaker 1: about that season of my life before I was deeply depressed,
2:20
Speaker 1: and I guess it would be called acutely depressed, right,
2:23
Speaker 1: And every morning I'd cry in the car on the
2:25
Speaker 1: way back to work. I would pull into the parking
2:28
Speaker 1: lot at IMDb or the local NBC station in LA
2:32
Speaker 1: where I worked, and I would look in the mirror
2:36
Speaker 1: and wipe my tears and try and give myself a
2:39
Speaker 1: little pep talk and breathe and put all my makeup
2:42
Speaker 1: and walk inside, smile, interview people, laugh, do my job,
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Speaker 1: try and be not a bummer. And then I would
2:51
Speaker 1: get back into my car and cry and listen to
2:55
Speaker 1: sad music all the way home, climb into bed before
2:58
Speaker 1: seven o'clock and hope that if I could just fall asleep,
3:01
Speaker 1: the pain would go away for a little while. And
3:04
Speaker 1: if you looked at my life from the outside, you
3:07
Speaker 1: would have never known. On Instagram, I was smiling, and
3:11
Speaker 1: I was wearing cute outfits, and I was covering NBA
3:15
Speaker 1: and WNBA games, and I was interviewing incredible people. But
3:19
Speaker 1: I remember sitting on my couch one day realizing that
3:23
Speaker 1: the gap between who I was and who I was
3:26
Speaker 1: pretending to be had become almost unbearable. Because at the time,
3:31
Speaker 1: I thought hiding was protecting me, and looking back, I
3:36
Speaker 1: don't think it was. Maybe I wasn't ready to share
3:39
Speaker 1: that chapter publicly, but I also think I underestimated people's
3:42
Speaker 1: capacity to meet me with compassion instead of judgment. And
3:47
Speaker 1: maybe you've experienced your own version of that gap in
3:50
Speaker 1: some way. Maybe what you're hiding is anxiety or a
3:55
Speaker 1: chronic illness, or a relationship that's falling apart, or grief, addiction,
4:01
Speaker 1: financial stress. Maybe you're a caretaker, or you're the one
4:06
Speaker 1: that plans everything and holds it together, and for once
4:09
Speaker 1: you just want to be the one that's not capable
4:11
Speaker 1: in your family. Maybe you're just simply exhausted trying to
4:14
Speaker 1: be the version of yourself that you think everyone else expects,
4:18
Speaker 1: or you've gone through a season like that. Whatever it
4:21
Speaker 1: is hiding always comes at a cost, and our guest
4:24
Speaker 1: today knows that cost so intimately, for millions of people,
4:31
Speaker 1: Jamie Lin Sigler will always be Meto soprano, the daughter
4:36
Speaker 1: we watched growing up on one of the greatest television
4:39
Speaker 1: shows ever made. But while the world saw a young
4:43
Speaker 1: actress living out a dream, Jamie was quietly navigating a
4:47
Speaker 1: reality almost no one knew about. At just twenty years old,
4:51
Speaker 1: she was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, and for years she
4:55
Speaker 1: believed that if anyone found out, everything she had worked
4:58
Speaker 1: for would disappear. So she kept going. She smiled, and
5:03
Speaker 1: she worked, and she showed up. All the while she
5:06
Speaker 1: carried the exhausting weight of pretending that she was okay,
5:11
Speaker 1: Until one day she realized something profound. The illness wasn't
5:15
Speaker 1: the only thing causing her pain. The silence and the
5:19
Speaker 1: shame of hiding it was just.
5:21
Speaker 2: To think about all of the extra layer of suffering
5:26
Speaker 2: that I placed upon myself because I didn't want anybody
5:29
Speaker 2: to know I have this, Like I all of the
5:31
Speaker 2: help that I never opened myself up to because of
5:35
Speaker 2: the shame I felt around having a mess. I was
5:37
Speaker 2: just like, I can't I can't do this anymore. I
5:40
Speaker 2: can't live like this anymore. I don't deserve to. I
5:45
Speaker 2: need to see how life can be a different way.
5:48
Speaker 1: Listening to Jamie, and especially reading her beautiful memoir and
5:51
Speaker 1: So it Is, I found myself unexpectedly emotional. Not just
5:57
Speaker 1: because of what she endured, although it is extraordinary, But
6:00
Speaker 1: what moved me was her refusal to give up on
6:03
Speaker 1: the thing that she loved. If you read the book,
6:06
Speaker 1: you'll understand what I'm saying. Jamie has this undeniable calling
6:10
Speaker 1: to perform, and when her diagnosis changed her body, she
6:14
Speaker 1: could have believed that that chapter of her life was over,
6:17
Speaker 1: but instead she did something so much harder. She accepted
6:21
Speaker 1: that she couldn't answer her calling in the same way
6:23
Speaker 1: she always had, and then she found a new way
6:27
Speaker 1: to answer it. And I think that's a lesson that's
6:30
Speaker 1: far bigger than acting. Life changes all of us. Bodies change,
6:35
Speaker 1: relationships and careers evolve, dreams get interrupted. The question isn't
6:40
Speaker 1: whether the path will change. The question is whether we'll
6:43
Speaker 1: mistake a detour for a dead end. Jamie didn't, and
6:48
Speaker 1: she also discovered something beautiful on the other side of
6:52
Speaker 1: telling the truth.
6:53
Speaker 2: We can feel so isolated in our pain because we
6:59
Speaker 2: feel like it will just connect us from everyone. But
7:01
Speaker 2: what I've learned is sharing my pain has connected me
7:05
Speaker 2: to everyone.
7:06
Speaker 1: The things she feared would isolate her became the very
7:09
Speaker 1: thing that connected her most deeply to other people. Our
7:13
Speaker 1: conversation today isn't really about multiple sclerosis. It's about the
7:17
Speaker 1: mass that we wear, the stories that Shane convinces us
7:21
Speaker 1: to believe, and what becomes possible when we finally tell
7:25
Speaker 1: the truth about who we are. It's time to question
7:29
Speaker 1: everything with Jamie Lynd Siegler. So, Jamie, I was looking
7:39
Speaker 1: at some of your messy episodes. It's the podcast you
7:42
Speaker 1: share with Christina Applegate, and one of them is called
7:44
Speaker 1: stop talking about It for a minute, and it made
7:47
Speaker 1: me laugh because it was such an honest way of saying,
7:50
Speaker 1: this is not the only thing I want to be
7:52
Speaker 1: talking about. So before we get into your full story,
7:56
Speaker 1: when you are tired of being profound or inspirational, what
7:59
Speaker 1: is your favorite completely unserious thing about you?
8:01
Speaker 2: And why? Do I think? It's reality TV? It's one
8:04
Speaker 2: hundreds of It was on the tip of my tongue.
8:06
Speaker 2: It's let's talk Bravo. Really, yeah, you know, I've been
8:09
Speaker 2: a fan of reality television and Bravo specifically for so long,
8:14
Speaker 2: Like I've watched from season one of all of these shows.
8:18
Speaker 2: I think it's it's a couple of reasons. One, I
8:20
Speaker 2: think it's like trauma drama at a safe distance, you
8:24
Speaker 2: know what I mean. But I also I find that
8:27
Speaker 2: people in general and in life, we were performative every day,
8:31
Speaker 2: right We're putting on a face for people, and many
8:35
Speaker 2: of these women put on a face for the camera,
8:38
Speaker 2: and that's just very natural. It's what we do. We
8:42
Speaker 2: want to present ourselves to be a certain way. But
8:44
Speaker 2: then there's always these just real, raw human moments that
8:49
Speaker 2: all of a sudden just get stripped down. It's like
8:52
Speaker 2: they forget the cameras are there, and I think it's
8:54
Speaker 2: so brave of these people to let us in. But
8:58
Speaker 2: it just it makes you feel so the when it's
9:01
Speaker 2: the fluff and when it's the unseerious. I don't know,
9:04
Speaker 2: it just reminds you that you can be that way
9:06
Speaker 2: too in life a little bit. I don't know. I
9:08
Speaker 2: think reality television I love seeing people's arcs, but it
9:11
Speaker 2: also can feel like it's just sort of the background
9:15
Speaker 2: of noise. I don't know. I just I enjoy it
9:18
Speaker 2: for so many reasons.
9:19
Speaker 1: And is it all of the shows like Housewives, Summer
9:21
Speaker 1: House correct, all of them, all of them.
9:24
Speaker 2: I can get down with all of them. I don't
9:27
Speaker 2: consider myself an expert on many things, but Bravo shows
9:30
Speaker 2: I can throw down with anyone.
9:32
Speaker 1: I so appreciate you sharing this because I'm the same,
9:35
Speaker 1: oh good, and it's like the outlier aspect of my personality.
9:39
Speaker 2: No one would guess it, and I'm kind of the
9:40
Speaker 2: same for you. Kind of yeah. I mean, I think
9:43
Speaker 2: if you if you talk to me for like more
9:45
Speaker 2: than fifteen minutes, it'll come up somehow. But yes, I
9:48
Speaker 2: think there's definitely a side of me that people have
9:51
Speaker 2: gotten to know and might be surprised to know that
9:54
Speaker 2: how much I love I'm not like a cinophile, Like
9:56
Speaker 2: I'm not watching like great classic movies. I'm watching episodes
10:00
Speaker 2: of Bravo that I've probably seen ten times, and I'm
10:02
Speaker 2: still enjoying it just as much. After listening to the episode,
10:07
Speaker 2: I was thinking, do I call you Jamie Lynn or
10:10
Speaker 2: do I call you James? You call me Jamie for share, okay?
10:14
Speaker 1: And because when you were younger, your agents thought your
10:16
Speaker 1: middle name made you sound more professional.
10:18
Speaker 2: Yes, Jamie Siegler just didn't sound like a star. I guess.
10:23
Speaker 1: Did that shift in names sort of feel like the
10:26
Speaker 1: beginning of the industry seeing you as a certain entity
10:31
Speaker 1: or in a certain way.
10:32
Speaker 3: Yeah.
10:33
Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting because my first real, real professional
10:38
Speaker 2: job was the Sopranos, And as you can imagine, on
10:43
Speaker 2: one hand, that's incredible, how lucky, how amazing, but also
10:49
Speaker 2: how overwhelming. There was no ease into this business, ease
10:55
Speaker 2: into fame, ease into sort of getting to know who
10:58
Speaker 2: I was and how I could carry myself. I was
11:00
Speaker 2: really thrust into the big leagues and I was very
11:03
Speaker 2: green and an experience. So yes, that was just one
11:08
Speaker 2: tiny piece of me feeling like an impostor and I
11:12
Speaker 2: didn't quite know how to navigate Hollywood.
11:14
Speaker 1: It was one of the most like visceral parts of
11:18
Speaker 1: the book. I thought, like the first third when you're
11:20
Speaker 1: writing about how you're trying to find yourself, and there
11:25
Speaker 1: was a man named Dieter that you write about, and
11:29
Speaker 1: I don't know what his profession.
11:30
Speaker 2: Was was he was the president of the Wilhelmina modeling agency.
11:35
Speaker 2: He was a big fricking deal.
11:37
Speaker 1: And so you're talking to him and he's telling you
11:39
Speaker 1: basically like you need to look like a star. You're
11:41
Speaker 1: not ready to be a star yet, like we need
11:43
Speaker 1: to turn you into a which is sort of like
11:46
Speaker 1: the language that you would think like from movies, but
11:50
Speaker 1: it was actually happening with you know, and to be honest,
11:53
Speaker 1: it felt compassionate, like it felt like he cared.
11:57
Speaker 2: It felt like he wanted it for me me. And
12:01
Speaker 2: so also I was incredibly insecure and had a terrible
12:07
Speaker 2: narrator that went along in my head with me through
12:09
Speaker 2: my life. So it was almost like this very big,
12:12
Speaker 2: powerful man was confirming the things that I felt within me,
12:18
Speaker 2: but he was going to show me the way out.
12:21
Speaker 2: So anytime I had encounters like that, I wasn't angry.
12:26
Speaker 2: It was almost like yeah, I know, like, yeah, please
12:29
Speaker 2: show me the way. So I was so you know,
12:34
Speaker 2: vulnerable to like anything that anybody would tell me because
12:37
Speaker 2: I felt so ill equipped to navigate how to be
12:41
Speaker 2: in Hollywood and to be a star.
12:42
Speaker 1: It was so interesting reading about it because so much
12:46
Speaker 1: of what you shared of having an eating disorder and
12:50
Speaker 1: you had a nose job that you ended up regretting,
12:53
Speaker 1: and it was so much of what almost every teenage
12:55
Speaker 1: girl feels except for yours, was so heightened. How do
12:59
Speaker 1: you look back on that fifteen year old?
13:04
Speaker 2: You know? That was probably the biggest part of my
13:07
Speaker 2: healing in writing this, was having forgiveness for that fifteen
13:13
Speaker 2: year old and having like compassion for her. Up until
13:18
Speaker 2: very recently, I've just beaten myself up for so long
13:21
Speaker 2: about so many the choices that I made, and I
13:24
Speaker 2: never looked at myself as like young and innocent and normal,
13:31
Speaker 2: you know. I just really looked at myself like, uh,
13:33
Speaker 2: she just can't do the right thing. And so to
13:38
Speaker 2: be able to kind of go back through your life
13:40
Speaker 2: and almost see yourself as like the lead in your movie,
13:44
Speaker 2: you know, and if you think about any movie and
13:46
Speaker 2: you see the mistakes, but you see the journey and
13:48
Speaker 2: you see what they learned through all of it, and
13:50
Speaker 2: you root for them and you can be like, ah,
13:53
Speaker 2: don't do it, but you see what life gave them
13:56
Speaker 2: through that experience. I was really able to get that,
14:00
Speaker 2: especially for that young girl, for just just feeling for her,
14:04
Speaker 2: having her pain feel seen and validated, and that it
14:08
Speaker 2: wasn't in her head, that it wasn't her fault, and
14:11
Speaker 2: acknowledging what a big thing she was trying to navigate.
14:14
Speaker 2: Why also just being a teenager and that being hard
14:18
Speaker 2: in itself, you know, So it was I kind of
14:21
Speaker 2: broke this book for that girl and all of the
14:26
Speaker 2: pain and all of the insecurity that she felt and
14:29
Speaker 2: carried alone for so long.
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Speaker 1: You've been on a journey of finding peace and compassion.
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Speaker 1: Have you been able to find that compassion over time
14:39
Speaker 1: or was there anything in particular you did that you
14:42
Speaker 1: felt was really helpful?
14:43
Speaker 2: You know, I think it's and I've tried in the
14:45
Speaker 2: book to really take you along with me on all
14:49
Speaker 2: of the sort of moments and pieces of inspiration or
14:55
Speaker 2: you know, people that have taught me things throughout life
14:58
Speaker 2: that sort of have gotten me where I am. I
15:00
Speaker 2: wouldn't say it's like one moment. Working on yourself is
15:04
Speaker 2: really hard. I have had a privilege of having a
15:10
Speaker 2: lot of time and space to be able to do that.
15:12
Speaker 2: I think living with MS has been it's kind of
15:15
Speaker 2: the blessing. One of the blessings of having it is
15:18
Speaker 2: that it's called me back to myself and made me
15:20
Speaker 2: pay attention to myself instead of sort of bulldozing forward
15:23
Speaker 2: and bypassing feelings and emotions and experiences and not wanting
15:27
Speaker 2: to deal with them. I really think had I not
15:29
Speaker 2: had MS, that's how I would have gone through my
15:31
Speaker 2: life until something you know, happened and would have forced
15:34
Speaker 2: me to do that. So, you know, I just think
15:37
Speaker 2: that there's it's just been this kind of gradual undoing.
15:41
Speaker 2: I've had big aha moments, like when I met our
15:45
Speaker 2: friend Ryan and he taught me about a course in
15:47
Speaker 2: miracles with for me felt like something that I could
15:52
Speaker 2: connect to, something that could give me my feet on
15:55
Speaker 2: the ground, a foundation of faith. There's so many ways
15:58
Speaker 2: for people to find that that just and to be mine,
16:01
Speaker 2: but just sort of being open to life being another way.
16:06
Speaker 2: And what I will say about all the things that
16:08
Speaker 2: have helped me shift my perspective and helped me. It's
16:13
Speaker 2: not like any of my circumstances changed once I found
16:18
Speaker 2: those things to help me. It's just my perspective shift. Yeah,
16:22
Speaker 2: And that, I think, more than anything, is what I
16:25
Speaker 2: hope that people can get from that, the possibility for themselves,
16:29
Speaker 2: because pain is inevitable. Life is going to continue to
16:34
Speaker 2: bring you experiences that are there to make you grow
16:39
Speaker 2: and evolve. But the story that we tell ourselves about
16:44
Speaker 2: that pain, the story that we tell ourselves about the
16:47
Speaker 2: experience of who we are because of it and who
16:49
Speaker 2: they are, that's what we're real suffering lies, and that's
16:53
Speaker 2: where our real power lies. To rewrite that. We don't
16:56
Speaker 2: have to be stuck in suffering. We can alchemize our
16:59
Speaker 2: pain into something more. And for decades I didn't know
17:04
Speaker 2: how to do that. But in the past, you know,
17:06
Speaker 2: five six, seven years, I've really committed to that, and
17:09
Speaker 2: it was really the drive to write this memoir and
17:13
Speaker 2: to put it out. It's not about me. I have
17:15
Speaker 2: plenty of love and validation in my life. My pain
17:19
Speaker 2: has been seen and validated by everyone that I know
17:23
Speaker 2: and care about. I want people to see themselves in
17:28
Speaker 2: my story and think if she feels so comfortable sharing
17:33
Speaker 2: these deep, dark, painful parts of herself. Why can't I?
17:37
Speaker 1: Wow, I think that's so powerful. I saw parts of
17:42
Speaker 1: myself in your story throughout the whole book, and we've
17:45
Speaker 1: had incredibly different life experiences, so I do feel people
17:50
Speaker 1: are going to feel that. And it was almost a
17:51
Speaker 1: permission slip, because sometimes it's like it feels embarrassing to be,
17:57
Speaker 1: oh my gosh in pain that way.
18:00
Speaker 2: I mean, this is these are these are the stories
18:02
Speaker 2: that I was the most embarrassed about, the most shameful about,
18:06
Speaker 2: the things that I thought no one would love me,
18:08
Speaker 2: no one would accept me if they ever knew about this,
18:12
Speaker 2: which one was the hardest to write. I think everything
18:15
Speaker 2: about my first marriage was really difficult. I felt like
18:19
Speaker 2: such a cliche. I felt like such a loser. I
18:23
Speaker 2: felt like such a crazy person, you know, like sometimes
18:27
Speaker 2: you've have these toxic relationships in your life that literally
18:30
Speaker 2: make you feel like you're crazy. And that was really difficult.
18:35
Speaker 2: Also because I didn't want to make my ex one dimensional,
18:41
Speaker 2: like he wasn't all bad, you know, they obviously there
18:45
Speaker 2: were things about him that made me feel safe and
18:49
Speaker 2: loved and secure. To spend five and a half years
18:51
Speaker 2: with him to marry him, even though I was very
18:54
Speaker 2: young and innocent and naive, and so I really wanted
18:57
Speaker 2: to be conscious, you know, in writing this book. This
19:00
Speaker 2: wasn't about a takedown of anyone. This was about sort
19:03
Speaker 2: of freeing myself from the stories that have held me down.
19:08
Speaker 2: And I had a girlfriend tell me that one of
19:11
Speaker 2: the gifts of expressing your vulnerability, whether it be in
19:14
Speaker 2: a book or any medium, it doesn't have to be
19:16
Speaker 2: on a grand scale, is that you no longer have
19:17
Speaker 2: to carry your pain alone. And when you do that
19:22
Speaker 2: and other people see themselves in it, it just it
19:25
Speaker 2: lightens everything. I did a book signing a couple of
19:28
Speaker 2: weeks ago here in New York, and it was like
19:31
Speaker 2: seventy five eighty women, all who had read the book,
19:34
Speaker 2: none of which I'd known, and I'd never been in
19:35
Speaker 2: a room like that, and they were all just so
19:39
Speaker 2: open and ready to share everything that they've been through
19:43
Speaker 2: and all of their pain. And it was just so
19:45
Speaker 2: beautiful to see people ready to free themselves of that.
19:50
Speaker 2: And so if my sharing my deep pain allowed them
19:54
Speaker 2: to do that, a what a gift. It felt bigger
19:58
Speaker 2: than me. It felt like this was something I had
20:01
Speaker 2: to do again, not for me, but as part of
20:05
Speaker 2: my service in the universe, you know.
20:08
Speaker 1: And what an ode to your capacity to be able
20:10
Speaker 1: to hold everything you hold on your own and to
20:12
Speaker 1: step in a room of eighty women who wanted to
20:14
Speaker 1: share theirs nicks.
20:16
Speaker 2: Thank you. It's I try to remind people and remind myself.
20:21
Speaker 2: You know that this is a place I never thought
20:24
Speaker 2: I would ever be able to be. You know, I
20:27
Speaker 2: come from a line of women where like, suck it up,
20:32
Speaker 2: put on your lipstick, never let them see you sweat,
20:34
Speaker 2: don't let them see your pain. That's your weakness, Be
20:37
Speaker 2: careful of women, don't trust anyone. And now I'm like
20:41
Speaker 2: open hearted, hard in the sleeve, and it just feels.
20:45
Speaker 2: It feels so much better. It feels I've never felt
20:50
Speaker 2: so confident. And I think it's just because I've I'm
20:55
Speaker 2: living in my truth and not hiding any parts of
20:57
Speaker 2: myself because I don't feel I need to anymore.
21:01
Speaker 3: Wow.
21:15
Speaker 1: I got chills when you talked about the women and
21:17
Speaker 1: your family, because you're brave enough to break the cycle,
21:22
Speaker 1: which is really hard.
21:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, But you know what was really cool. I
21:26
Speaker 2: was nervous for my mom to read the book because
21:28
Speaker 2: I mean, look, she's reading things about me and my
21:32
Speaker 2: perspective that I've never shared with her because I didn't
21:35
Speaker 2: know how without feeling like I was going to hurt
21:37
Speaker 2: her feelings or it would be you know, misinterpreted. And
21:42
Speaker 2: one of the reactions she had when she first read
21:44
Speaker 2: the book was she said, I'm really proud of myself.
21:47
Speaker 2: I did the best I could with raising you with
21:50
Speaker 2: what I had been through. And I also think that
21:52
Speaker 2: I was able to allow my mom's pain to be
21:56
Speaker 2: seen at her difficult especially child like to be acknowledged.
22:03
Speaker 2: I don't think she's ever had that before. So it
22:05
Speaker 2: was also a really beautiful gift that came from all
22:08
Speaker 2: of this is for my mom to feel the pride
22:12
Speaker 2: that she deserves to feel as a mother. I think,
22:15
Speaker 2: you know, as moms, I think we can all feel
22:18
Speaker 2: like we're not good enough, or we could have done
22:20
Speaker 2: this or that better. I go through that daily, you know,
22:23
Speaker 2: in my mind. But I think when you care, that
22:26
Speaker 2: shows that you're a good mom. And so I'm really
22:29
Speaker 2: glad that I was able to give her that opportunity
22:33
Speaker 2: for her to see how amazing of a mom she was,
22:35
Speaker 2: you know.
22:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, So when I finished your memoir, it felt like
22:39
Speaker 1: an exhale.
22:40
Speaker 2: Oh and the title.
22:43
Speaker 1: Is and so it is, and you used to write
22:45
Speaker 1: it in sharpie yes on your wrist.
22:48
Speaker 2: It's tattooed now.
22:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, so your title is a nod to an affirmation
22:53
Speaker 1: that you made, that you settled about the things that
22:56
Speaker 1: happen in our lives that we can't change. And you
22:58
Speaker 1: said it took you thirty years to find that level
23:01
Speaker 1: of self acceptance. What does it feel like now that
23:04
Speaker 1: you're no longer having to perform in your day to
23:07
Speaker 1: day life.
23:08
Speaker 2: I just feel like I finally know who I am. Yeah,
23:12
Speaker 2: I finally know. I feel safe to express myself in
23:16
Speaker 2: every way. I feel safe to advocate for myself. I
23:20
Speaker 2: feel safe to make mistakes, to say I don't know,
23:23
Speaker 2: to not be perfect. And I think with all of that,
23:27
Speaker 2: it just makes me feel like I walk with more
23:31
Speaker 2: faith now and trust. It doesn't mean that difficult things
23:35
Speaker 2: might not be around the corner. I was in the
23:39
Speaker 2: middle of writing this book when bo got sick, when
23:42
Speaker 2: my son was sick, and which allowed the book to
23:45
Speaker 2: sort of even take a whole different shape because it
23:47
Speaker 2: begins and ends with him. So, I mean I thought
23:50
Speaker 2: I was like in my like closing the loop, like
23:53
Speaker 2: ready to like share, and then the biggest, most traumatic
23:58
Speaker 2: thing in my life land it in my lap. So
24:01
Speaker 2: I don't know what's around the corner, but I move
24:05
Speaker 2: forward with faith, knowing that I know who I am,
24:08
Speaker 2: I know my tribe, I know I have people to
24:11
Speaker 2: call upon, and I'm not afraid to do so. And
24:14
Speaker 2: then I just don't have to go through this life alone.
24:17
Speaker 2: We're not meant to do that. We can feel so
24:21
Speaker 2: isolated in our pain and so afraid to share because
24:26
Speaker 2: we feel like it will disconnect us from everyone. But
24:28
Speaker 2: what I've learned is sharing my pain has connected me
24:32
Speaker 2: to everyone. It's the opposite. If I met.
24:35
Speaker 1: Jamie at twenty two at a party, would you have
24:38
Speaker 1: been a character or would you have been a version
24:43
Speaker 1: of yourself?
24:44
Speaker 2: I would have thought I was me, But looking back,
24:47
Speaker 2: I think I was always playing a character. I was
24:50
Speaker 2: always trying to find myself. I mean I always I
24:53
Speaker 2: was always kind. That was always the most important thing.
24:55
Speaker 2: Like I love people, I love connecting with people. I
24:59
Speaker 2: would have looked you deep, been your eyes and giving
25:01
Speaker 2: you a genuine smile and loved you from the start
25:04
Speaker 2: and been your friend no matter what. But I would
25:08
Speaker 2: not have shared with you any of my pain. I
25:11
Speaker 2: would not have shared with you I don't feel good
25:15
Speaker 2: in this outfit even or I don't feel like I
25:17
Speaker 2: look good or does he like me? Like I just
25:19
Speaker 2: never I never shared what was going on in my
25:23
Speaker 2: head because I just assumed it was would be a
25:26
Speaker 2: turnoff to people. So in some ways a character, But
25:30
Speaker 2: in many ways I thought authentic because I wasn't even
25:33
Speaker 2: sort of admitting what I was going through to myself. Yeah,
25:36
Speaker 2: that makes sense.
25:37
Speaker 1: I remember in twenty sixteen when your announcement or the
25:42
Speaker 1: headline came out that you told the world that you
25:45
Speaker 1: had MS. I was working at Entertainment Tonight Online, so
25:48
Speaker 1: I remember the newsroom that day.
25:50
Speaker 2: Wow.
25:51
Speaker 1: And I remember thinking the only other person I had
25:55
Speaker 1: remembered talking about it was Montell Williams, and I think
25:58
Speaker 1: it was like nineteen ninety nine, and I had heard
26:00
Speaker 1: reverberations of it. I wasn't really old enough to understand.
26:04
Speaker 1: And then Terry gar shared hers in the early two thousands,
26:07
Speaker 1: But you were the first young, famous, working actor that
26:13
Speaker 1: I had seen talk about an MS diagnosis simultaneous to
26:18
Speaker 1: navigating your own career and dreams and life and love
26:22
Speaker 1: and eventually motherhood. I think you represented a whole new
26:26
Speaker 1: generation of actors that were managing chronic illness while navigating careers.
26:33
Speaker 1: What led up to you sharing publicly in twenty sixteen,
26:36
Speaker 1: that makes me emotional.
26:39
Speaker 2: Why. I don't think I saw it that way really
26:44
Speaker 2: at that time. No, it was just what led me
26:48
Speaker 2: to It was I just I couldn't bear holding the
26:52
Speaker 2: secret anymore. Everyone around me, my close circle for a
26:56
Speaker 2: number of years prior, were really you know, they didn't
27:00
Speaker 2: push me, but every once in a while they pick
27:02
Speaker 2: jab why don't you even if it was at work,
27:04
Speaker 2: They're like, why don't you just tell people at work?
27:06
Speaker 2: You're making it so much harder for yourself. No, no, no, no, no, no, no,
27:09
Speaker 2: you don't understand. You don't understand. I would always just
27:11
Speaker 2: feel like people didn't get it. I knew that it
27:14
Speaker 2: would be the end of my life. I knew it
27:15
Speaker 2: would be the end of my career, and they just
27:17
Speaker 2: didn't get it. And I had a two year old
27:19
Speaker 2: son at the time, and you know, at that point
27:22
Speaker 2: I was having to sort of, you know, explain to him,
27:25
Speaker 2: not why mommy couldn't run or mommy needed to sit sometimes,
27:30
Speaker 2: but just just basically saying, matter of factly, mommy can't run,
27:34
Speaker 2: so mommy, mommy needs to just be the pitcher when
27:36
Speaker 2: we play baseball, or the goalie when we play hockey,
27:38
Speaker 2: or mommy needs to sit down sometimes. Like he didn't
27:41
Speaker 2: need the explanation at that time, but I thought about, Okay,
27:45
Speaker 2: as he gets older and he's going to start asking why,
27:49
Speaker 2: am I going to tell him why? But that he
27:52
Speaker 2: can't tell anyone that he has to hold this secret
27:55
Speaker 2: for me, Like what is that teaching my son? What
27:57
Speaker 2: is that teaching him about the world. Also, the MS
28:00
Speaker 2: at that point had you know, progressed enough to a
28:03
Speaker 2: point where I couldn't hide it. It was very clear
28:06
Speaker 2: that something was going on with my body. I was
28:08
Speaker 2: dealing with some type of physical disability, even though I
28:11
Speaker 2: wasn't ready to say that I was disabled at the
28:13
Speaker 2: time because for some reason that label felt negative to me.
28:16
Speaker 2: I've been able, thankfully to you know, rearrange my thoughts
28:19
Speaker 2: and feelings around that. So all of those things were
28:22
Speaker 2: kind of coming to a head. And then one of
28:24
Speaker 2: my best friends, Lindsay, was seeing this hypnotist at the
28:27
Speaker 2: time for her own reasons, and much like many of
28:31
Speaker 2: my other friends, who have just thought about me?
28:34
Speaker 1: You know.
28:34
Speaker 2: She brought me up to him one day and said,
28:36
Speaker 2: you know, one of my best friends lives with MS.
28:38
Speaker 2: She lives with daily pain, Like, do you think you
28:40
Speaker 2: could help her with that? And he said absolutely, I'd
28:42
Speaker 2: love to talk to her. So I would go see anyone,
28:46
Speaker 2: anyone that could possibly help me, I would go see.
28:48
Speaker 2: So I remember I drove up to his house in
28:51
Speaker 2: Santa Monica, parked my car, and he was waiting for
28:54
Speaker 2: me at the top of his driveway and I looked
28:57
Speaker 2: down at the ground and I walked up to him,
29:00
Speaker 2: and I immediately before even saying like, Hi, how are
29:03
Speaker 2: you anything, he was like, why are you looking at
29:05
Speaker 2: the ground? Why won't you look at me when you walk?
29:07
Speaker 2: And it was so confronting, but I don't know if
29:10
Speaker 2: it was just his presence, his energy. I wasn't angry
29:14
Speaker 2: at it. I wasn't I didn't feel anything negative around it.
29:18
Speaker 2: I felt then immediately like I had to answer honestly,
29:21
Speaker 2: and I said I don't like to watch people watch
29:23
Speaker 2: me walk, and he said, okay, after you and I
29:28
Speaker 2: remember walking in front of him and I started instinctively
29:31
Speaker 2: doing that thing where I would hold my breath and
29:35
Speaker 2: try to walk as normal and straight as I could,
29:37
Speaker 2: because that's what I would do. I wanted to always
29:39
Speaker 2: present as better than I ever was, you know, never
29:43
Speaker 2: show people exactly how I was feeling or how disabled
29:45
Speaker 2: I was. I'm going to try to look better for everyone.
29:48
Speaker 2: I walked into his office and he pointed to this
29:51
Speaker 2: like giant, old leather lazy boy chair, and I sat
29:55
Speaker 2: in an across from him, and he said, you feel
29:59
Speaker 2: so much shame about the fact that you have MS,
30:01
Speaker 2: and I was just speechless. I never even considered the
30:07
Speaker 2: fact that I was embarrassed that I had this, That
30:10
Speaker 2: I thought that my having a mess and people knowing
30:13
Speaker 2: that I had it meant that I was inherently bad
30:16
Speaker 2: or I did something wrong to deserve it, not realizing
30:20
Speaker 2: that that actually was my way of thinking. I subconsciously
30:24
Speaker 2: felt all of those things. So it was almost like
30:27
Speaker 2: he opened the door of the way that I needed
30:31
Speaker 2: to really address this. What I really needed to see
30:34
Speaker 2: was like, forget the MS, like your feelings around it
30:38
Speaker 2: need to be healed. All of my focus prior to
30:41
Speaker 2: that was like how do I fix the body, How
30:42
Speaker 2: do I fix the walking? How do I fix my leg?
30:45
Speaker 2: How do I make sure that I don't pee my pants.
30:48
Speaker 2: I never thought about addressing me and my heart and
30:53
Speaker 2: my emotions around living with a chronic illness. It just
30:56
Speaker 2: didn't I don't know if I thought I deserved it,
31:00
Speaker 2: you know, I thought it was possible. It was just
31:02
Speaker 2: never a part of any type of healing that I considered.
31:07
Speaker 2: So we talked for like ten fifteen minutes. He put
31:10
Speaker 2: me under a hypnosis. I don't know what happened, and
31:13
Speaker 2: then when I came out, he said, Okay, I'd love
31:15
Speaker 2: to see you again in like a week or two.
31:17
Speaker 2: We'll make a plan. I remember I got in my
31:20
Speaker 2: car and it was like you ever have moments in
31:23
Speaker 2: your life where you were like so incredibly present, Like
31:25
Speaker 2: sometimes a trauma will do that to you, you know
31:27
Speaker 2: what I mean, where you're like like you can't go
31:29
Speaker 2: into the future, you can't go in the past, You're
31:31
Speaker 2: just kind of floating. If I got in my car,
31:33
Speaker 2: I didn't even look at my phone, I didn't turn
31:36
Speaker 2: on the music, and I started driving home and all
31:39
Speaker 2: of a sudden, I remember the first thing I passed
31:41
Speaker 2: was the Sony lot where I've gone on auditions many times,
31:45
Speaker 2: and I started getting these memories of when I would
31:48
Speaker 2: go on these auditions. Let's say my audition was at
31:50
Speaker 2: two PM. I would get there at one o'clock. I
31:54
Speaker 2: didn't have a handicapped blacker then because nobody knew, so
31:56
Speaker 2: I was like, you know, try to circle and circle
31:59
Speaker 2: and find the closest I could, and then I would,
32:03
Speaker 2: you know, pretend I was on my phone walking through
32:05
Speaker 2: the lot and like walk a couple of steps and
32:07
Speaker 2: then rest, and then walk a little bit more and rest.
32:10
Speaker 2: Because nobody knew, I didn't ever think to ask for
32:13
Speaker 2: help of a closer parking spot or a golf cart ride.
32:15
Speaker 2: So I'm walking all across the slot to the audition
32:18
Speaker 2: to manage my body so that when I get there,
32:21
Speaker 2: I'm not limping, so I'm not given away, and just
32:23
Speaker 2: to think about all of the extra layer of suffering
32:28
Speaker 2: that I placed upon myself because I didn't want anybody
32:31
Speaker 2: to know I have this, Like I all of the
32:33
Speaker 2: help that I never opened myself up to because of
32:37
Speaker 2: the shame I felt around having a mess like that
32:39
Speaker 2: was just one example. And then all of a sudden,
32:41
Speaker 2: just like all of these memories came flooding back, and
32:44
Speaker 2: I was just like, I can't I can't do this anymore.
32:47
Speaker 2: I can't live thick this anymore. I don't deserve to.
32:50
Speaker 2: I need to see how life can be a different way.
32:54
Speaker 2: And if that means that I don't act anymore, then
32:57
Speaker 2: I don't act anymore like I I I can't feel
33:02
Speaker 2: shameful on top of already what I'm feeling from MS.
33:07
Speaker 1: I just want to add one thing, because if people,
33:11
Speaker 1: if people read your book, they'll hear.
33:17
Speaker 2: How much you love acting.
33:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, so to say to yourself, like, I can't live
33:23
Speaker 1: like this anymore, it's okay if I don't act. I
33:25
Speaker 1: think it's actually like a weightier moment than people may understand,
33:31
Speaker 1: because you talk about so often being on stage and
33:35
Speaker 1: like it's the only time that you weren't in pain
33:38
Speaker 1: that you felt most like yourself.
33:41
Speaker 2: It was clear to me that from a young age
33:42
Speaker 2: you had a calling. Thanks for saying that, Yeah, yeah,
33:47
Speaker 2: I didn't even think about that how much. In the
33:49
Speaker 2: book I do reference that, I know what, SO felt
33:52
Speaker 2: that so deeply throughout the whole thing.
33:54
Speaker 4: Oh.
34:08
Speaker 2: I was asked to sing in this benefit the other night.
34:12
Speaker 2: My friend Craig Thomas, he's one of the creators of
34:14
Speaker 2: How I Met Your Mother, his son was born with
34:16
Speaker 2: a heart defect that caused many developmental issues with his son.
34:19
Speaker 2: And there's a doctor who has really been instrumental in
34:23
Speaker 2: their son's healing and journey, and the benefit concert was
34:27
Speaker 2: to raise money for his research. Every year they do
34:30
Speaker 2: it and they invite guest stars that were on How
34:32
Speaker 2: I Met Your Mother, and I was once on it,
34:34
Speaker 2: so they were asked me this year. Anyway, I say
34:36
Speaker 2: this all to say that I got on stage the
34:39
Speaker 2: Saturday night and I sang three songs, and my body
34:44
Speaker 2: showed up for me. I stood the whole time with ease.
34:48
Speaker 2: I was vibrating. I was happy. I was doing something
34:52
Speaker 2: that like I love that I don't do anymore because
34:57
Speaker 2: of the grief I have around not being able to
34:59
Speaker 2: perform the way I and said whatever all those different reasons.
35:01
Speaker 2: And my kids came and they've never seen me like that,
35:05
Speaker 2: They've never seen me perform. And when I got off
35:09
Speaker 2: this stage, my eight year old, who's not like Bo.
35:13
Speaker 2: My older one, like Bo's very emotional and very expressive
35:16
Speaker 2: like Jack, my little one is just kind of very
35:18
Speaker 2: like you know, he hugs from the side. He's just
35:21
Speaker 2: more reserved, kind of like my husband and he was like, Mom,
35:26
Speaker 2: I have never seen you happy before. Like I think
35:29
Speaker 2: he was trying like he had never seen me like
35:31
Speaker 2: that before. He goes, I was shaking watching you, and
35:35
Speaker 2: it just it makes me feel alive when I perform.
35:39
Speaker 2: And I think it's taken me a lot of time
35:42
Speaker 2: to accept and understand that I can still be a
35:46
Speaker 2: performer along with this. But you broke the seal. Yeah, yeah,
35:52
Speaker 2: and sometimes you have to, you know. And I think
35:55
Speaker 2: that that's what other people I hope, So I hope.
35:58
Speaker 2: So I think that's also what I thought about a
36:00
Speaker 2: lot in the book, is this. I hope that I
36:03
Speaker 2: hope that any other young person in any field understands
36:09
Speaker 2: that we all have to make pivots in life, you
36:11
Speaker 2: know sometimes, and a diagnosis doesn't mean that your dreams
36:17
Speaker 2: are over, just means you have to find a different way.
36:21
Speaker 2: And I've it's it's been a slow journey of you know.
36:27
Speaker 2: When I finally did come out about it, I still
36:32
Speaker 2: was operating like I used to, where Okay, now people know,
36:36
Speaker 2: but I'm not a problem. Don't worry. I can do it.
36:39
Speaker 2: We can work around this. Like I could do a
36:41
Speaker 2: couple of steps where I look able bodied and I
36:44
Speaker 2: don't blame anyone. Everyone was very supportive of what I
36:49
Speaker 2: felt comfortable doing. I still wanted to seem like an
36:51
Speaker 2: able bodied person. I didn't want people to know I
36:54
Speaker 2: had MS. I'm playing a character they don't have MS.
36:56
Speaker 2: We can't show this right. And it's been over the
36:59
Speaker 2: last decade of you know, me being public with it,
37:02
Speaker 2: me finally getting to a place just this year where
37:06
Speaker 2: now every job I go into, every audition, every meeting,
37:10
Speaker 2: I'm like, I have MS. I walk with a limp,
37:13
Speaker 2: I'm physically disabled. If you're okay with that, great, but
37:17
Speaker 2: I cannot perform a body and give you the best
37:21
Speaker 2: performance that I can give. So as long as you're
37:23
Speaker 2: okay with me walking the way I walk and moving
37:27
Speaker 2: the way I move, great. I know it's not going
37:29
Speaker 2: to work for everyone, and I have to accept that
37:32
Speaker 2: and where you're at. But it's where I'm at because
37:35
Speaker 2: I can't do it the way I had been doing
37:38
Speaker 2: it for so long, where basically I was so concerned
37:40
Speaker 2: with getting through the physical part of the day and
37:43
Speaker 2: not getting the freedom and the enjoyment of acting anymore.
37:48
Speaker 2: And so again, while that limits me, it's the only
37:51
Speaker 2: way that I can do it. And to me how
37:54
Speaker 2: I can really represent others like me? You know you can.
37:57
Speaker 2: People have been receptive. Yes, yes, I just did a
38:01
Speaker 2: couple of episodes on one of my favorite shows, it's
38:03
Speaker 2: called Tires on Netflix with Shane Gillis, and I told
38:07
Speaker 2: the director John McKeever like before we started, I was like, listen,
38:11
Speaker 2: I have it. He's like, I know, what's cool. We
38:12
Speaker 2: don't have to talk about it. You're you and I
38:15
Speaker 2: did it. I did the role. We never talked about it,
38:17
Speaker 2: and it was so beautiful and amazing and just another
38:22
Speaker 2: moment that I never imagined.
38:25
Speaker 3: You know.
38:26
Speaker 2: I never imagined that I would be in a comedy
38:29
Speaker 2: and be improving with some of these like cool stand
38:32
Speaker 2: ups and all this stuff, and as me in this body.
38:35
Speaker 2: It's been really incredible. And you know, again, ten years ago,
38:41
Speaker 2: I thought that I was making this announcement in my
38:43
Speaker 2: career would be over. And to see me still, you know,
38:45
Speaker 2: pounding the pavement and doing it since then, I feel
38:48
Speaker 2: a lot of pride about that. How do you feel
38:51
Speaker 2: about you know?
38:52
Speaker 1: When I worked in entertainment news, I saw how when
38:56
Speaker 1: there would be certain headlines that would repeat over and
38:58
Speaker 1: over again, they became somebody's story. Yeah, it was like
39:03
Speaker 1: the rest of them sort of like floated away in
39:06
Speaker 1: the media's eyes. Have you thought about MS being your
39:10
Speaker 1: story and how do you think about that?
39:12
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm so glad you brought that up. So that
39:14
Speaker 2: was also one of the things that was holding me
39:17
Speaker 2: back from talking about it because I felt like MS
39:20
Speaker 2: would enter into the room before I did, you know
39:22
Speaker 2: what I mean, People saw me like, oh, she has MS,
39:24
Speaker 2: you know, and then like looking for how it affected me.
39:27
Speaker 2: I think I was projecting a lot of my own
39:30
Speaker 2: judgments on myself onto other people and the world. But
39:35
Speaker 2: this is the entertainment industry. And even when I was
39:38
Speaker 2: promoting my book when it first came out, every first
39:41
Speaker 2: question would be like you hid your MS or something,
39:44
Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, I feel like that's such
39:45
Speaker 2: a small part of the book, Like it's not about MS,
39:49
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. That just happened to be
39:51
Speaker 2: one of the things that happened to me awlong in
39:53
Speaker 2: my life and one of the things that has allowed
39:55
Speaker 2: me to grow and find myself. But yes, I mean,
40:00
Speaker 2: and even as recently as when I got to play
40:02
Speaker 2: a doctor with MS on Grey's Anatomy, which was incredible
40:06
Speaker 2: and amazing and like so grateful for them for me
40:09
Speaker 2: to tell this story and to play this woman in
40:12
Speaker 2: her power in her field that had to pivot herself
40:14
Speaker 2: to doing robotic surgeries, you know, because of the way
40:17
Speaker 2: that MS has affected her. It was so much about that,
40:21
Speaker 2: and even with my podcast Messy that I actually had
40:23
Speaker 2: to take a step back. I even called Christina, I
40:26
Speaker 2: called my reps and I said, I'm starting to feel
40:29
Speaker 2: like MS is my currency with the world, and I
40:34
Speaker 2: can't just have that be that. I have to feel
40:37
Speaker 2: like I can go on interviews, I can play roles
40:42
Speaker 2: that aren't about MS, like because that's not my day
40:46
Speaker 2: to day life. That's not I can go a week
40:50
Speaker 2: without talking about the disease. Everyone around me, you know,
40:53
Speaker 2: everyone in my family. This is just part of me.
40:55
Speaker 2: It's not who I am. It doesn't define me. And
40:58
Speaker 2: so I've had to learn and accept that that's just
41:04
Speaker 2: sometimes what will lead an interview. But then I try
41:08
Speaker 2: to just take the opportunity to remind people that this
41:13
Speaker 2: does not define me. But yes, it is one hundred
41:16
Speaker 2: percent been something that I've thought about, been concerned about,
41:20
Speaker 2: But in the end of the day, I cannot control it.
41:23
Speaker 2: I can only control how I feel about it and
41:26
Speaker 2: how I move forward with it, and it has been nice.
41:29
Speaker 2: With Messy in particular, I've been able to share in
41:33
Speaker 2: a really honest way that I've never been able to before,
41:37
Speaker 2: which I actually think really opened me up to be
41:39
Speaker 2: able to be as honest and raw in the book
41:41
Speaker 2: as I was able to be, because even when I
41:44
Speaker 2: talked about MS for a while, I still wanted to
41:46
Speaker 2: present as hirable and like I'm okay though, and so
41:50
Speaker 2: finally in the podcast, I was like, no, these people
41:53
Speaker 2: want the real, they want to be seen, they want
41:56
Speaker 2: to feel validated in their experience. So I'm like, really,
41:59
Speaker 2: just going to share how this affects me has just,
42:02
Speaker 2: I think just opened me up even more. And then
42:04
Speaker 2: I think even opened up me even more as an actress,
42:06
Speaker 2: because to feel comfortable in your skin, to feel comfortable
42:10
Speaker 2: in your truth, to feel authentic has really translated into
42:15
Speaker 2: my creativity as well.
42:17
Speaker 1: I also feel you and Christina have a dynamic that
42:20
Speaker 1: brings more out of one another.
42:22
Speaker 2: Yes, one hundred percent. One hundred percent.
42:25
Speaker 1: I can't imagine that she's given you some words and
42:28
Speaker 1: you've given her some words that you hold on to.
42:30
Speaker 1: Is there anything that comes to mind that she said
42:33
Speaker 1: to you that you really think about, or vice versa.
42:36
Speaker 2: I mean, I remember when we were starting the podcast
42:38
Speaker 2: and she was like, Jamie, We're going to be real.
42:41
Speaker 2: I'm going to talk about it all. I'm going to
42:43
Speaker 2: talk about everything that I'm feeling. And I was like, Okay,
42:45
Speaker 2: I will meet you where you're at. Let's go, let's
42:48
Speaker 2: do it. And it felt really liberating. And the thing
42:51
Speaker 2: about podcasting, right, it's just like us on a zoom
42:54
Speaker 2: on our little mic.
42:55
Speaker 1: So it's like, you forget if there was like millions
42:57
Speaker 1: or thousands of people listening.
42:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's kind of nice and to feel like
43:03
Speaker 2: to have that little tinge of like, oh god, everybody's
43:05
Speaker 2: just going to hear what we just talked about for
43:06
Speaker 2: an hour and then it's like, great, what do I
43:09
Speaker 2: have to hide anymore? It's really it felt like it
43:12
Speaker 2: was kind of like the last puzzle piece to this
43:17
Speaker 2: chapter of just me really just letting it all out
43:21
Speaker 2: there and being unafraid and unattached to any type of response.
43:26
Speaker 1: We spoke about the title of your book earlier, so
43:29
Speaker 1: it was actually the subtitle that stood out to me
43:32
Speaker 1: so much. It is a memoir of acceptance. And hope,
43:36
Speaker 1: And I felt like you were saying, you wrote this
43:38
Speaker 1: book to turn a page.
43:40
Speaker 2: Was that write at all? Yes, one hundred percent? What
43:43
Speaker 2: were you turning? I'm able to sort of acknowledge everything
43:48
Speaker 2: that I've been through, have such forgiveness and gratitude for
43:52
Speaker 2: it all, and understand that in this particular moment in
43:57
Speaker 2: my life, I can pick and choose what I want
43:59
Speaker 2: to take with me and what I want to just
44:01
Speaker 2: leave behind. And so that turning of that page, it's
44:04
Speaker 2: like I can leave those stories that I've told myself
44:07
Speaker 2: about who I am and what I am and being
44:10
Speaker 2: good enough or not good enough behind, and I can
44:12
Speaker 2: take the lessons and I can take the experience, and
44:15
Speaker 2: I can take the reminders too. Even in my deepest,
44:18
Speaker 2: darkest moments, like in retelling the story, I see the
44:21
Speaker 2: little blessings that were around me, and I see where
44:24
Speaker 2: it led me, all the sliding door moments, and I
44:26
Speaker 2: just I can move forward again now, like I was saying,
44:30
Speaker 2: of just of knowing that that is life and also
44:33
Speaker 2: knowing that I believe in. This is the words that
44:36
Speaker 2: I use, and we can all use different words and
44:38
Speaker 2: ways of talking about it, but like God will put
44:40
Speaker 2: me in front of the road that I'm meant to
44:41
Speaker 2: go down, but I'm not going to go down it
44:44
Speaker 2: until I have the experiences and the knowledge to walk
44:48
Speaker 2: that path. And so knowing that I will not miss
44:50
Speaker 2: anything that's for me, but that I'm not going to
44:54
Speaker 2: do it until I'm ready, and just trusting that, like
44:58
Speaker 2: I'm I'm in school still, you know, but what I mean,
45:00
Speaker 2: and it might not be my time, it might not
45:02
Speaker 2: be yet. My husband's favorite thing to tell me always
45:04
Speaker 2: is your story isn't over yet, and it's and it's
45:07
Speaker 2: a true reminder, he put it. I'm like one of
45:09
Speaker 2: my you know, moments where I was sort of feeling
45:11
Speaker 2: down and hopeless about things, he had a little posted
45:14
Speaker 2: on my pillow that just said that, and your story
45:16
Speaker 2: is not over. And I know. There's something about post
45:19
Speaker 2: its that are such good reminders. I don't know if
45:21
Speaker 2: it's a bright color. It's just feels because they're very intentional, right,
45:26
Speaker 2: it just feels like I need to remember this, whether
45:28
Speaker 2: it's an appointment or something like that. You're right, post
45:32
Speaker 2: its are They're very specific and pointed, and they're like
45:37
Speaker 2: this matters.
45:38
Speaker 1: Yes, it's a note to self. I have them on
45:40
Speaker 1: my bathroom mirror, and I think about love it some reason.
45:43
Speaker 2: I love it.
45:56
Speaker 1: I loved reading about your relationship with James Gandolphini. I
46:00
Speaker 1: think anybody who's a Sopranos fan would love reading about it.
46:04
Speaker 1: But also when I was ten, I had a friend
46:06
Speaker 1: who you met, Carly, and her family had an inn
46:10
Speaker 1: at the Emmys for some reason, and they had three
46:12
Speaker 1: girls in their family and each girl got to bring
46:14
Speaker 1: a friend. So I went to the Emmys and my
46:18
Speaker 1: dad loved the Sopranos and I was too young to
46:20
Speaker 1: really be watching. I was ten, but I would like
46:23
Speaker 1: try and stay up late and watch and hide and
46:25
Speaker 1: I would pretend I was asleep.
46:26
Speaker 2: So I love James Gandolfini.
46:28
Speaker 1: And at the end of the show, I ran up
46:30
Speaker 1: to him and I was like, I didn't know his
46:32
Speaker 1: real name, and I was like, Tony, Tony, I love
46:35
Speaker 1: your show, and in like the accent, he was like,
46:39
Speaker 1: how old are you? And I was like I'm ten,
46:41
Speaker 1: and he goes, what the fuck are you doing watching
46:44
Speaker 1: my show?
46:46
Speaker 2: I told you that's what he would say. That's so fun,
46:48
Speaker 2: and I was like, you really are, Tony. It was
46:50
Speaker 2: like a perfect moment.
46:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, But I loved the way you described him, It
46:55
Speaker 1: just there was so much love and admiration there. It's
46:58
Speaker 1: all I feel when you bring up his name, when
47:01
Speaker 1: his face pops in my head. Why not feel like
47:04
Speaker 1: you were comfortable telling him about your diagnosis because that
47:09
Speaker 1: felt meaningful time.
47:10
Speaker 2: Yes, well, because from the beginning, I just felt like
47:13
Speaker 2: he always was watching me, but in a really beautiful way,
47:20
Speaker 2: you know, like I just felt like I can remember
47:23
Speaker 2: moments where you know, I was in my own head
47:26
Speaker 2: like kind of looking down the ground, thinking about whether
47:28
Speaker 2: it was the scene or what was going on, and
47:30
Speaker 2: I would, you know, then you know, come out of
47:32
Speaker 2: my haze and look around, and he would be watching me.
47:37
Speaker 2: He observed me, and I didn't share myself openly or honestly.
47:42
Speaker 2: Then I thought I did a good job of hiding it,
47:45
Speaker 2: but not to him. So there were there were little
47:48
Speaker 2: just moments throughout the show where he would, you know,
47:52
Speaker 2: even just be a good kid, you good kid, And
47:55
Speaker 2: it was it was almost like he was laying the
47:57
Speaker 2: foundation work for me to eventually when I was bubbling
48:01
Speaker 2: over and just needed to tell someone, him being the
48:04
Speaker 2: place to land because he had been watching me for
48:08
Speaker 2: so long and knowing that something was up but too
48:12
Speaker 2: elegant to pry or push, respected me enough to let
48:16
Speaker 2: me come to him. I guess I don't know if
48:20
Speaker 2: he ever thought I would. But you know, in that
48:23
Speaker 2: one moment that I talk about in the book where
48:26
Speaker 2: my life felt like it was imploding, the MS was
48:29
Speaker 2: really starting to present itself. I was going through a
48:32
Speaker 2: divorce and not telling anyone. I was getting called from
48:36
Speaker 2: set that I wasn't doing a good job acting and
48:38
Speaker 2: I wasn't telling anybody but anything that was going on
48:41
Speaker 2: that He finally just pulled me aside and was like,
48:44
Speaker 2: something is up. And then I just unloaded all of
48:47
Speaker 2: it on him, And I remember his first reaction was,
48:51
Speaker 2: You're just a kid. And he always reminded me of that.
48:57
Speaker 2: He always tried to remind me like, you don't have
49:00
Speaker 2: to know it all, you don't have to have it
49:02
Speaker 2: all figured out. You're so young, and this is so big.
49:07
Speaker 2: I remember him one time, I don't know where we were.
49:10
Speaker 2: We were at I don't know if it was an
49:11
Speaker 2: award show or whatever, and camera's red carpet whatever, and
49:16
Speaker 2: I was doing my thing and I came off and
49:17
Speaker 2: he was like, this is a lot for you being
49:21
Speaker 2: the young girl on this big show. That's a lot
49:23
Speaker 2: for you, and that was it. And it was just
49:26
Speaker 2: such a small but significant acknowledgement of that. I didn't
49:33
Speaker 2: even understand or ever have the space or thought to
49:37
Speaker 2: acknowledge for myself of what I was having to carry
49:40
Speaker 2: at that time. And he always he always knew it
49:43
Speaker 2: and made it clear that he acknowledged it, which he
49:46
Speaker 2: didn't have to. I mean, he was the star of
49:48
Speaker 2: the show. He had so much on his plate and
49:50
Speaker 2: there was always room for him and space for him
49:53
Speaker 2: to support me.
49:55
Speaker 1: It makes it even more impressive that that's sort of
49:57
Speaker 1: the type of leader that he wanted to be.
50:00
Speaker 2: I just I can't say enough amazing things. I mean,
50:04
Speaker 2: it's I don't know if this is always the case,
50:06
Speaker 2: but it's just so rare to have such a talent
50:11
Speaker 2: like that, like big, big talent. He had no desire
50:17
Speaker 2: to be a star, you know, was just it was.
50:19
Speaker 2: It was conflicting for him to be as famous as
50:22
Speaker 2: he was because he loved acting and had such respect
50:27
Speaker 2: for the craft, but like did not want to be
50:29
Speaker 2: acknowledged outside of that. You know, he wanted to do
50:32
Speaker 2: a good job and put out good work and then disappear.
50:35
Speaker 2: But then also to be so kind. He really took
50:38
Speaker 2: his role as the leader of that show seriously. Yeah,
50:42
Speaker 2: and he was the best. Do you take any pieces
50:45
Speaker 2: of Meadow with you?
50:46
Speaker 1: Did you feel, because there's moments in the book where
50:48
Speaker 1: you talk about like almost forgetting that you're not her
50:51
Speaker 1: or that he's not your father. Yeah, and then you
50:54
Speaker 1: pop back into reality.
50:55
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I mean I played her for ten years, right, so,
50:59
Speaker 2: and I created her in very many ways, Like she
51:02
Speaker 2: really in the beginning came from me, Like my sassy
51:05
Speaker 2: at self was through Meadow in that pilot and you know,
51:08
Speaker 2: laying my accent on thick and like fighting with my
51:11
Speaker 2: mom and fighting with my dad and rolling my eyes
51:13
Speaker 2: at my brother, like that was all very natural to me.
51:17
Speaker 2: But then obviously as the show evolved and our lives
51:21
Speaker 2: were very different, she became kind of this like alter
51:24
Speaker 2: ego for me to escape into. She was confident, she
51:27
Speaker 2: was smart, she was self assured, she expressed herself, she
51:31
Speaker 2: advocated for herself in ways that I had no idea
51:34
Speaker 2: how to, and so she was sort of like this
51:37
Speaker 2: escape for me. But then also I loved Jim and
51:42
Speaker 2: Edie and Robert so much, and there was such an
51:44
Speaker 2: alchemy amongst the four of us, and when we'd do
51:47
Speaker 2: our scenes together. And also I just like there were
51:51
Speaker 2: times when I just like I wanted Jim to be
51:53
Speaker 2: my dad. I wanted it to be real. I wanted
51:56
Speaker 2: the moment and they did. They felt very real. It
51:59
Speaker 2: was it was you know, part of the spark and
52:03
Speaker 2: amazingness of the show was that we just we loved
52:06
Speaker 2: these characters so much and we all rooted for them
52:09
Speaker 2: in our own ways, even though they were pretty despicable
52:11
Speaker 2: human being anyways, but we were we understood them and
52:16
Speaker 2: we love them. And so yes, I in my body,
52:20
Speaker 2: my when my body and my mind and my eyes
52:24
Speaker 2: see someone from the Sopranos, that's family. Like that is
52:27
Speaker 2: the same reaction I get when I see my blood family.
52:30
Speaker 1: That's beautiful. Yeah, okay, I'm gonna do some quick rapid
52:33
Speaker 1: fig with you. What is MESSI or your purse, your
52:35
Speaker 1: group chat, your notes, app or your emotions?
52:38
Speaker 2: Oh my group chat? What is your current hyperfixation? The
52:45
Speaker 2: fact that my hair is falling out? Oh no, that's tough.
52:50
Speaker 2: It is And I don't know what is it from
52:51
Speaker 2: the testosterone? Is it perimenopause? Like I don't know what
52:55
Speaker 2: it is, but it's It's falling out a reality show.
52:57
Speaker 1: You could give a ted talk on any housewife or
53:00
Speaker 1: summer house this year. The most meadow thing about you
53:04
Speaker 1: my accent, your favorite metal line listen to mister mob Boss.
53:09
Speaker 2: The most New York thing about you? Pizza forever.
53:13
Speaker 1: Now that you're a Texan, what's the most Texan thing
53:16
Speaker 1: about you?
53:16
Speaker 2: I say, y'all. Who from the Sopranos would be the
53:18
Speaker 2: most fun at a dinner party? Rob Eiler my best friend?
53:21
Speaker 2: Or I eat a toturo though she's a close second.
53:24
Speaker 1: Which Sopranos character would have the most unhinged dating profile?
53:27
Speaker 2: I need a deturo? Janis for sure?
53:30
Speaker 1: Who would young Jamie be shocked that you became friends
53:33
Speaker 1: with Lance Bass? What's a dream that you're glad didn't
53:36
Speaker 1: come true?
53:37
Speaker 2: Singing like being a pop star meaning, oh we have
53:41
Speaker 2: to talk about we didn't get tired? I know, I know.
53:43
Speaker 1: I don't think it's as bad as you thought it was.
53:45
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. It felt really bad for me. Your
53:47
Speaker 1: most underrated form of self care meditating? What is something
53:51
Speaker 1: that every woman should try once.
53:52
Speaker 2: A one night stan? Wow? I love that.
53:55
Speaker 1: I think that's what everybody thinks and doesn't say on
53:57
Speaker 1: the podcast, so thank you for saying it.
53:59
Speaker 2: Just just find a hot guy and just go without
54:03
Speaker 2: thinking and never want to see him again. Like I
54:06
Speaker 2: had one and he was amazing, and I look back
54:09
Speaker 2: at it fondly and I have no regrets and I
54:12
Speaker 2: don't care where he is.
54:13
Speaker 1: I love that.
54:14
Speaker 2: What is a book you read that changed your life?
54:16
Speaker 2: Something you think everybody should read? The Alchemist?
54:19
Speaker 1: And then if you will grab the question Everything card
54:21
Speaker 1: game and pick one question.
54:23
Speaker 2: Who has influenced you the most and what did you
54:25
Speaker 2: learn from them? Our friend Ryan Weiss really how beautiful and.
54:32
Speaker 1: I learned how to see myself in the world in
54:35
Speaker 1: a completely different way. Jamie Lynn Sigler Flash Siggy Slash.
54:40
Speaker 2: Jamie, thank you, thank you so much. You're amazing. You're amazing. Okay,
54:50
Speaker 2: you know what time it is. Today's a good day.
54:53
Speaker 2: To have a good day. I'll see you next week.
55:02
Speaker 1: Now The Seconds.
55:10
Speaker 2: As the
55:17
Speaker 3: Fam