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What Makes a Good Match-Play Golf Course? · Designing Golf

0:00
Speaker 1: The Writer Cup at Bethpage Black is approaching, so I
0:04
Speaker 1: thought it would be a good time to talk about
0:06
Speaker 1: the intersection between match play and golf course design. This
0:10
Speaker 1: is a topic I've been thinking about for a while.
0:14
Speaker 1: What makes a golf course well suited to match play
0:16
Speaker 1: as opposed to stroke play? How do you go about
0:19
Speaker 1: designing a matchplay specific golf course. Does it require something
0:23
Speaker 1: different from an architect than designing a course that will
0:26
Speaker 1: primarily host stroke play rounds. In this episode, I'll dig
0:31
Speaker 1: into those issues with two architects, first Andy Staples, who
0:36
Speaker 1: has actually designed a golf course intended for match play,
0:40
Speaker 1: Then Brian Schneider, who's a little skeptical of some of
0:44
Speaker 1: these ideas. Finally, I'll wrap up with some of my
0:47
Speaker 1: own thoughts on Bethpage Black and its suitability for the
0:51
Speaker 1: match play format. I'm Garrett Morrison, and this is Designing Golf.
1:03
Speaker 1: Andy Staples, Welcome to the podcast. Thank you for being here.
1:07
Speaker 2: Hey, Garrett, great to be here, Thanks for having me.
1:11
Speaker 1: So we're talking today about whether there are certain things
1:15
Speaker 1: that make a golf course well suited or poorly suited
1:19
Speaker 1: to match play as opposed to stroke play. And you're
1:22
Speaker 1: a good person to tackle this topic with, because you've
1:25
Speaker 1: actually designed a golf course expressly intended for match play.
1:29
Speaker 1: It's part of the PGA National Resort in Florida, and
1:34
Speaker 1: it's called, appropriately enough, the match So before getting into
1:40
Speaker 1: kind of the philosophical ideas of what makes a good
1:43
Speaker 1: match play course and so on, why don't you just
1:47
Speaker 1: tell me a bit about the specifics of this project
1:50
Speaker 1: and how you thought through it. So, what was the
1:54
Speaker 1: concept of the match and where did it come from?
1:57
Speaker 1: How'd you come up with the idea.
2:00
Speaker 2: So PGA National, as many might know, hosts a PGA
2:03
Speaker 2: Tour event on the Champ course. They had four other courses.
2:07
Speaker 2: Now they have five courses, and so I was hired
2:11
Speaker 2: to look at what was called the Squire Course at
2:13
Speaker 2: that time. It's eighteen hole non returning nine a non
2:17
Speaker 2: returning eighteen, which man means you would go out and
2:21
Speaker 2: come back. There's no real connection to the clubhouse, a
2:23
Speaker 2: little bit disconnected from the clubhouse, which got to give
2:26
Speaker 2: it a little bit of charm. It was kind of
2:28
Speaker 2: out at the edge of the Everglades nineteen eighty one,
2:32
Speaker 2: George and Tom Fozio, and so it was tired and
2:35
Speaker 2: they were looking for the owners. At the time, Brookville
2:39
Speaker 2: Properties were looking for an option for how to diversify
2:44
Speaker 2: the user group. They had the Champ Course, which is
2:47
Speaker 2: known as being very difficult. They've got a Fasio and
2:50
Speaker 2: Arnold the Palmer, and so I started looking around what
2:56
Speaker 2: was happening in our industry with the resort courses and such.
2:59
Speaker 2: Seemed like a natural fit to try to play a
3:02
Speaker 2: course that targeted the maybe not so serious golfer, maybe
3:07
Speaker 2: the more fun golfer, the golfer that maybe was coming
3:11
Speaker 2: in to play the Champ course and maybe wanted to
3:15
Speaker 2: hang out the afternoon, play with their buddies, so forth,
3:18
Speaker 2: and so what people maybe don't know. Nineteen eighty three
3:23
Speaker 2: bj National Golf Club hosted the Ryder Cup, and so
3:27
Speaker 2: we kind of had this kind of natural tie in.
3:29
Speaker 2: It's like, wait a minute, the history of this place.
3:32
Speaker 2: It's actually kind of cool. And so when we started
3:35
Speaker 2: to think about what we could do to reimagine the Squire,
3:40
Speaker 2: which was kind of a tired, old sixty five hundred
3:43
Speaker 2: yard golf course, nothing totally special, surrounded by homes and
3:47
Speaker 2: things like that, typical for Florida golf course. We took
3:50
Speaker 2: the first an eighteenth hole non returning eighteen one to
3:55
Speaker 2: nine made a par three course, and then we were
3:57
Speaker 2: left with essentially sixteen holes for the rest of you know,
4:02
Speaker 2: whatever we wanted to do, and at that time, of course,
4:05
Speaker 2: we needed to make sure it was eighteen holes, and
4:08
Speaker 2: so the remaining sixteen holes became our focus on how
4:14
Speaker 2: do we actually create something here that people might want
4:17
Speaker 2: to make an effort to come play, certainly want to
4:19
Speaker 2: make it as casual and fun and engaging, knowing that
4:23
Speaker 2: people may have just gotten off to playing the Champ
4:25
Speaker 2: Course the day before or even that morning, and so
4:29
Speaker 2: we were able to take one course, the Square Course,
4:31
Speaker 2: and break it up into two courses, so a part
4:33
Speaker 2: three nine hole part three course that's now called the Staple,
4:37
Speaker 2: and then an eighteen hole maybe about a fifty eight
4:41
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty yard golf course short by many standards
4:46
Speaker 2: in Florida. We called the match. So that's it was
4:50
Speaker 2: kind of the tie, and we were really just trying
4:51
Speaker 2: to find something that was really reaching out across the
4:55
Speaker 2: golf sector and to prob bring people here that that
4:58
Speaker 2: don't necessarily need the you know, you go ahead and
5:00
Speaker 2: play the Champ Course if you want the hard, difficult stuff.
5:02
Speaker 2: But here, let's come we have some fun over in
5:04
Speaker 2: this course.
5:05
Speaker 1: First of all, the par three course, the staple that's
5:08
Speaker 1: named after you.
5:10
Speaker 2: But I kind of joke it is called the Staple.
5:14
Speaker 2: They wanted it to be the staple of the resort.
5:16
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, my name is Staples with an S
5:18
Speaker 2: at the end.
5:20
Speaker 1: So it's just a coincidence.
5:22
Speaker 2: No, I mean it was. It was a playoff words.
5:24
Speaker 2: The guys helped us with that, and they're geniuses, so
5:28
Speaker 2: they let that kind of fly. But yeah, nine hole
5:31
Speaker 2: staple of course.
5:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're just like Jack Nicholas naming every course the
5:34
Speaker 1: bear of some sort or another.
5:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, Hugh Jo that's right, exactly.
5:42
Speaker 1: All right. Well I had to give you a hard
5:44
Speaker 1: time about that. But both the courses obviously look really cool.
5:47
Speaker 1: I haven't been to them. I'm very curious about the
5:51
Speaker 1: match course, and you know that the idea of building
5:57
Speaker 1: a course specifically for match and how that was different
6:02
Speaker 1: from how you might have approached the stroke play courses
6:06
Speaker 1: that you've designed. So did you have a different approach
6:09
Speaker 1: Was there something essentially different from the ground up about
6:13
Speaker 1: how you designed this course?
6:17
Speaker 2: I would say yes, absolutely, And I think you know Obviously,
6:21
Speaker 2: we live in a country that's you know, fairly focused
6:24
Speaker 2: on stroke play, and every you know, every time the
6:28
Speaker 2: Ryder Cup or the President's Cup or something come back,
6:30
Speaker 2: there's some matchplay discussion, but for most parts it's it's
6:34
Speaker 2: stroke play. But I've always felt that the game of golf,
6:38
Speaker 2: the things that we try to try to promote in
6:42
Speaker 2: our game. You know, let's let's not have to make
6:44
Speaker 2: every golf course seven thousand yards. You know, does par
6:48
Speaker 2: really matter? And we talk a lot about is on
6:51
Speaker 2: a great golf course, some great golf courses that are
6:53
Speaker 2: seventy par seventy or less. And so, by nature of
6:57
Speaker 2: breaking the square course up into two courses, we were
7:01
Speaker 2: left with a finite piece of land, and I felt
7:06
Speaker 2: there needed to be something here creatively that gave us
7:09
Speaker 2: the ability to say, all right, if I was going
7:11
Speaker 2: to squeeze out at that point, we were trying to
7:13
Speaker 2: get over six thousand yards. But if we're going to
7:16
Speaker 2: squeeze out as many yards as possible, how do we
7:18
Speaker 2: get people here to come play golf? And why do
7:20
Speaker 2: we make it something you know, not your typical executive
7:23
Speaker 2: style golf course, as many people might call, something less
7:26
Speaker 2: than a certain yardage, and so yeah, it certainly gave
7:29
Speaker 2: me the ability. I think, when part doesn't matter, when
7:33
Speaker 2: length doesn't matter, you focus on half par holes, you
7:37
Speaker 2: focus on dramatic t shots, You focus on perhaps a
7:43
Speaker 2: very execute a shot to get onto a putting surface.
7:47
Speaker 2: The putting surface doesn't have to be fair. The word
7:50
Speaker 2: fair doesn't come into play very often on match play.
7:53
Speaker 2: It's they're bad breaks, right, they're it's not fair or not,
7:57
Speaker 2: it's a bad the fact that you had a bad break.
7:59
Speaker 2: So I really, from my standpoint, it gave me the
8:02
Speaker 2: opportunity to think of things without par, without length, and
8:07
Speaker 2: make an engaging golf course that really put a pressure
8:10
Speaker 2: on the golfers to hit golf shots. And by you know,
8:14
Speaker 2: at the end of the project, it was, you know,
8:16
Speaker 2: the Brookville properties were very engaged and involved, but many
8:20
Speaker 2: of them weren't really golfers. And so I got in
8:22
Speaker 2: the habit of saying, you know, my five will beat
8:25
Speaker 2: your six, And that's really the essence of a matchplay,
8:29
Speaker 2: of a match, and what I wanted to basically make
8:32
Speaker 2: out of the match at this at this at PGA National.
8:36
Speaker 1: Well, there are a couple of interesting things there. First
8:39
Speaker 1: of all, The origin story of this course kind of
8:42
Speaker 1: comes out of a constraint. You had sixteen holes of
8:45
Speaker 1: an old course and you really didn't have enough room
8:49
Speaker 1: to create a typical regulation golf course. So what do
8:52
Speaker 1: you do with it? Well, one option is a match
8:57
Speaker 1: play golf course, because it's it seems that golfers are
9:01
Speaker 1: more ready to accept an unconventional course if it is
9:07
Speaker 1: for match play and not for stroke play. So why
9:11
Speaker 1: do you think that is?
9:13
Speaker 2: Well, I think there's a certain novelty to it, and
9:16
Speaker 2: there's a lot of a lot of folks down in
9:18
Speaker 2: Florida that might argue with that point. There there is
9:21
Speaker 2: a traditional customer base down there that you know. One
9:25
Speaker 2: of the other things that we don't have is we
9:27
Speaker 2: don't have traditional team markers. We have a beginning and
9:29
Speaker 2: we have an end. So we have kind of a
9:31
Speaker 2: minimum and a maximum, you know, the horse course concept,
9:35
Speaker 2: and then we we to this date, have still not
9:39
Speaker 2: rated and sloped the golf course. So when you play
9:42
Speaker 2: the match, you don't you can't record a score. So
9:46
Speaker 2: that that's begun a whole other discussion too. It's like,
9:48
Speaker 2: well why not, let's let's let's raid it. So and
9:51
Speaker 2: I've resisted rating the course because it's like, in my mind,
9:55
Speaker 2: this isn't a course that you want to go post
9:56
Speaker 2: a score. There's there there are holes out out there
10:00
Speaker 2: that are the length of a par four, But as
10:03
Speaker 2: you play them, and if you get into a certain
10:06
Speaker 2: angle or a certain part of the fairway, as you
10:09
Speaker 2: approach the greens, you know there's some shots there that
10:14
Speaker 2: expect execution and so an accuracy. And I think to me,
10:18
Speaker 2: when when you actually break down what match play is
10:21
Speaker 2: all about, it doesn't matter about the enjoyment of the course.
10:24
Speaker 2: You want to beat your opponent. And so at the
10:27
Speaker 2: end of the day, I wanted to put a diverse
10:29
Speaker 2: number of golf shots and place a premium on an
10:33
Speaker 2: approach into these greens that because I didn't have length.
10:36
Speaker 2: I try to defend it in different lines.
10:40
Speaker 1: We've done a couple of episodes recently on the concept
10:43
Speaker 1: of fairness, and you've used the F word a couple
10:46
Speaker 1: of times in describing what you did at this course
10:49
Speaker 1: the match and I think it's so interesting that once
10:54
Speaker 1: you're separated from stroke play, that fairness in golf course
10:59
Speaker 1: does doesn't seem to play as big of a role,
11:02
Speaker 1: or at least players don't seem to care as much
11:06
Speaker 1: about fairness because our idea of fairness in golf is
11:09
Speaker 1: so often connected to the idea of par and when
11:14
Speaker 1: you're playing a match, the idea of par or the
11:18
Speaker 1: idea of your handicap as related to the slope rating
11:22
Speaker 1: and whatever other numbers are relevant there. Those those notions
11:27
Speaker 1: kind of constrict are our acceptance of different kinds of
11:34
Speaker 1: golf courses. So once you say it's a match play course,
11:38
Speaker 1: then you're kind of freed up.
11:39
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, yeah, you can take unfair you.
11:42
Speaker 1: Can create unfair features. You don't have to constantly be
11:46
Speaker 1: you know, hiding from fairness.
11:50
Speaker 2: That's right, That is exactly right. And I will tell
11:53
Speaker 2: you that that was That was one of the more
11:56
Speaker 2: freeing parts of this. Now, granted, I think we took
11:58
Speaker 2: some risks on the on the side slopes of the
12:01
Speaker 2: greens and the slopes of the greens. Since we didn't
12:04
Speaker 2: have a lot of length. We knew a lot of
12:07
Speaker 2: people players would play that go off course that could
12:09
Speaker 2: hit the ball, you know, a pretty good length. But
12:12
Speaker 2: if you were an average or even below average and
12:15
Speaker 2: played all the way back and at the match, you
12:18
Speaker 2: still had a legitimate golf course. I mean, I've with
12:20
Speaker 2: the eight hundred yards for a lot of players, is
12:21
Speaker 2: still a pretty good golf course. There's a lot of
12:23
Speaker 2: par fives out there, if you want to start talking fives.
12:26
Speaker 2: But you know, when you think about match play, anybody
12:29
Speaker 2: who's who's been brought up in the game that played
12:32
Speaker 2: any type of competition, you know, at least that's the
12:35
Speaker 2: way I was brought in. You know, we still had
12:38
Speaker 2: match play where I grew up, and that was part
12:41
Speaker 2: of the State Golf Association. There's an emotion around winning
12:46
Speaker 2: a hole. There's an emotion about being two up. There's
12:49
Speaker 2: an emotion and a memory of having that final pot
12:53
Speaker 2: on the last hole for whatever number to win. And
12:58
Speaker 2: very rarely do you ever remember what you shot that day.
13:01
Speaker 2: You you end up, you end up making sure that
13:03
Speaker 2: you beat your your partner or your your opponent and so.
13:07
Speaker 2: And I have buddies here. I've told this story a
13:10
Speaker 2: number of times. I have buddies that are all different
13:12
Speaker 2: types of golfers, really good golfers to poor golfers. And
13:15
Speaker 2: we have a game. When we go play, there's there's
13:18
Speaker 2: four of us or even six of us, and we'll
13:20
Speaker 2: start out the first six holes and play a scramble,
13:23
Speaker 2: you know, two on two on two, and then the
13:24
Speaker 2: next hole, the next six holes will play an alternate shot,
13:27
Speaker 2: and many of the guys that I play with have
13:29
Speaker 2: never ever played an alternate shot before. They didn't know
13:31
Speaker 2: what the persons was. And then the final six holes
13:34
Speaker 2: are six holes of of of best ball or or
13:39
Speaker 2: stroke play, but still straight up match. And so to me,
13:43
Speaker 2: I was thinking about that as I built the match.
13:45
Speaker 2: It's like, Okay, if I had you know, six of
13:48
Speaker 2: us out here playing and we didn't really care what
13:51
Speaker 2: we what we shot, how am I going to enjoy
13:53
Speaker 2: the shot? I can just remember. I just think about
13:55
Speaker 2: the some of the greens, like I can see them saying, Staples,
13:58
Speaker 2: what'd you do? Here? I'm on the wrong side and
14:00
Speaker 2: here I am on the right side, And so I
14:02
Speaker 2: think to me, you know, you can call it whatever
14:04
Speaker 2: you will. I think that this was an excuse for
14:07
Speaker 2: me to get into a creative mode, but I don't
14:10
Speaker 2: know that I necessarily would have done on other courses.
14:13
Speaker 2: And I think that is what gives the match the
14:16
Speaker 2: charm that it has.
14:18
Speaker 1: Is there a specific feature at the match that you
14:20
Speaker 1: could tell us about that you might have hesitated to
14:24
Speaker 1: build at a conventional golf course that you would expect
14:27
Speaker 1: people to play stroke play at.
14:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, yeah, I think there's a there's I
14:34
Speaker 2: had a coffin bunker that there's one in the back
14:36
Speaker 2: side of the twelve hole. That my kind of Sahara
14:39
Speaker 2: template if you will, where you can actually, you know,
14:42
Speaker 2: drive it up to the green. If you miss the green,
14:44
Speaker 2: you're in this big entire hole like it's I tried
14:46
Speaker 2: to cut it as low as I possibly could. It's
14:48
Speaker 2: probably twelve feet low right next to the green, and
14:50
Speaker 2: then you go up on top of the green and
14:52
Speaker 2: there's a sliver of a bunker. And now, granted that
14:56
Speaker 2: those are becoming more popular, certainly Pete Dye made a
14:58
Speaker 2: living making making those types of bunk, but I don't
15:01
Speaker 2: know that I would ever had the sign off on
15:03
Speaker 2: something that you actually had to kind of climb in
15:05
Speaker 2: and out of, which was really cool. I use railroad ties,
15:08
Speaker 2: you know, so the idea of hitting something into a
15:12
Speaker 2: feature that you know, and I safely angled them and
15:15
Speaker 2: tried to do my best that didn't have to worry
15:18
Speaker 2: about any ricochets and things like that. But you know
15:20
Speaker 2: that you're in a feature and you just have no
15:24
Speaker 2: shot but going sideways. So I think those are things
15:27
Speaker 2: that that I think, you know, you play that golfull
15:29
Speaker 2: next time, you're like, I'm not hitting it over was here,
15:32
Speaker 2: or I'm gonna make sure I select a club to
15:34
Speaker 2: make make sure I avoid it. So of course that
15:37
Speaker 2: those are the things that I think we're you know,
15:40
Speaker 2: we're so cool about the course.
15:42
Speaker 1: If people make double bogies or triple bogey's just because
15:46
Speaker 1: of one feature, then that doesn't affect them the same
15:50
Speaker 1: way in a match as it would if they were
15:54
Speaker 1: tallying up their score. And so I think a big
15:57
Speaker 1: part of the freedom that a match play course concept
16:01
Speaker 1: offers is the ability to build features that exact are
16:06
Speaker 1: real punishment. And what you get from that is not
16:10
Speaker 1: just punishment, not just the whatever the sadistic pleasure that
16:14
Speaker 1: a golf architect feels and punishing players, whatever that might be,
16:18
Speaker 1: it's it makes the course exciting because avoiding the feature,
16:23
Speaker 1: playing around the feature, ending up in a hazard that
16:27
Speaker 1: is truly punitive creates excitement and tension. And that's that's
16:32
Speaker 1: something that can sometimes be missing from modern courses that
16:37
Speaker 1: we saw a lot at courses built in that Golden
16:41
Speaker 1: Age of the nineteen tens, twenties, and thirties. I think
16:43
Speaker 1: people would be shocked by how savage some of the
16:46
Speaker 1: hazards that the great architects of that period would build.
16:51
Speaker 2: Yes, of course, and so I'd be remiss by saying,
16:55
Speaker 2: I mean, the match play course isn't about the savage features,
16:59
Speaker 2: you know, But you go to the Garden City Golf
17:01
Speaker 2: Club and see what Walter Travis was doing to make
17:03
Speaker 2: that golf course more difficult for the USAM came through there.
17:07
Speaker 2: Like he was toughening it up. You see those features, like,
17:09
Speaker 2: there's no way you can get away with half those
17:10
Speaker 2: features that he built. But it is about the flow
17:15
Speaker 2: and the rhythm of the routing. So there was a
17:19
Speaker 2: certain expectation of creativity and pushing the limits on actual
17:24
Speaker 2: individual features. But you know, and we're about ready to
17:28
Speaker 2: you know, see match play again here in a week
17:31
Speaker 2: or so at that page. You know, I think what
17:34
Speaker 2: makes truly a good match play is the flow of
17:37
Speaker 2: the routing, the flow of how holes come together, and
17:41
Speaker 2: then certainly the closing of the routing. So many matches
17:46
Speaker 2: don't make it to the eighteenth hole, so you can
17:48
Speaker 2: really start to focus on fourteen fifteen, sixteen seventeen, and
17:53
Speaker 2: know that those are holes that maybe become a little
17:55
Speaker 2: more difficult. I love and I've only played Beth Page once,
17:59
Speaker 2: but it's a memorable course in my mind. It starts
18:03
Speaker 2: a little slow, maybe a little bit in front of you,
18:06
Speaker 2: you know, be wary of this match, like if you're
18:09
Speaker 2: if you're not up in the match after the first
18:11
Speaker 2: couple of holes, then by the time you make the turn,
18:13
Speaker 2: then it's a dogfight and it comes down to the finish,
18:16
Speaker 2: which is one of the reasons why I think Beth
18:17
Speaker 2: Page is so such a good match play course. You know,
18:20
Speaker 2: I think the routing and the way that holes are presented,
18:25
Speaker 2: which I feel like we were a bit constrained. We
18:28
Speaker 2: were only we're only available to whatever land was available
18:31
Speaker 2: to us at at the match. But I did think
18:35
Speaker 2: of things in terms of starting you know, it's right
18:38
Speaker 2: in front of you at the beginning, but then starting
18:40
Speaker 2: to kind of you know, synch it up or tighten
18:42
Speaker 2: it up. And and I think as you get to
18:44
Speaker 2: the match, there's a there's a somewhat reachable par five
18:48
Speaker 2: if you want to put a par on it, but
18:49
Speaker 2: it's it's a very short hole that that if you
18:52
Speaker 2: don't reach it close to the green and two shots
18:54
Speaker 2: are going to be disappointed. Uh. The the sixteenth hole
19:00
Speaker 2: is this little short, maybe two hundred ninety yard kind
19:04
Speaker 2: of know hole with the green sitting up and it
19:06
Speaker 2: all falls around. So you can go for the green
19:09
Speaker 2: and it falls everywhere around the green or you just
19:11
Speaker 2: lay up short. Seventeen is very narrow. Eighteen's a big, huge,
19:16
Speaker 2: long part three with a Britz kind of style of
19:18
Speaker 2: green in the middle of it. So to me, I
19:21
Speaker 2: think a match play course truly thinks in terms of
19:25
Speaker 2: how people are playing matches, how golfers are competing against
19:29
Speaker 2: each other, and know that, Hey, if you start fast,
19:31
Speaker 2: get up hot, get up quick, but then you got
19:34
Speaker 2: to hold on to the end. And I think you're
19:35
Speaker 2: going to see that a lot at that thing.
19:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's not always the as you mentioned earlier,
19:42
Speaker 1: the eighteenth hole that is the conclusion of the round.
19:46
Speaker 1: So maybe there's an extra pressure on a match play
19:49
Speaker 1: course to have something really cool on fifteen or sixteen
19:54
Speaker 1: or seventeen. And that's why I think, by the way,
19:56
Speaker 1: Cyprus Point is such a sensational match play course. As
19:59
Speaker 1: we saw the Loker Cup if you end on really
20:02
Speaker 1: any of those holes in that closing stretch, matches are
20:05
Speaker 1: obviously most likely to get to at least fifteen. There
20:09
Speaker 1: are relatively few matches that end before that. But if
20:13
Speaker 1: you end on any of those holes fifteen, sixteen, seventeen,
20:16
Speaker 1: or even eighteen, I would argue it's a pretty satisfying
20:20
Speaker 1: ending in a way. All of them are unique holes
20:23
Speaker 1: and they offer something distinctive for a match that might
20:27
Speaker 1: have its concluding moment on it.
20:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was actually very surprised that so many matches
20:33
Speaker 2: made it to eighteen and there was such a focus
20:35
Speaker 2: on the accuracy off the tee and that big overhanging
20:40
Speaker 2: cypress from the left. I thought that again, you know,
20:44
Speaker 2: people say what they want about the the best seventeenth hole,
20:48
Speaker 2: seventeen hole course in the country, but that eighteenth holes
20:51
Speaker 2: gave a challenge that was very exacting off the tee,
20:56
Speaker 2: and you saw a lot of play underneath the tree
20:58
Speaker 2: around the tree for what what over you know, everyone
21:01
Speaker 2: to say about the value of trees. It was still
21:04
Speaker 2: it didn't matter about the design of that gopple. It
21:06
Speaker 2: was about getting the ball in and at least amount
21:09
Speaker 2: of strokes, and you know there was a lot of
21:11
Speaker 2: matches that were called there, so I think, to me,
21:14
Speaker 2: that's the essence. I'd say, Cypress point, the finish of
21:18
Speaker 2: Cypress is by far the quirky knit, the quirkiest and
21:22
Speaker 2: the example of what we try to do at the match.
21:24
Speaker 2: Now granted a little different location, but it's certainly a
21:27
Speaker 2: great example. I'm glad you brought it up.
21:30
Speaker 1: You know what is with Cyprus is that that eighteenth
21:32
Speaker 1: hole is kind of like Mackenzie saying to the players
21:38
Speaker 1: in the match, Okay, you couldn't figure it out on
21:41
Speaker 1: sixteen or seventeen, Let's give you something completely different. Let's
21:45
Speaker 1: see you, guys finish your match on this hole. And
21:50
Speaker 1: he creates this opportunity on that hole for very different
21:54
Speaker 1: scores to be made. Anybody who's played that hole knows
21:58
Speaker 1: that it can go sideways. If you don't hit a
22:01
Speaker 1: great t shot and you're stuck behind a tree, well look,
22:05
Speaker 1: you're you're stuck behind a tree. Your opponent finds the
22:08
Speaker 1: right part of the fairway to hit that approach up,
22:11
Speaker 1: you're not getting to the green, and so you have
22:14
Speaker 1: to scramble. You have to, you know, fight to the
22:18
Speaker 1: death to stay in that match. At the end. And
22:21
Speaker 1: that's that's something that's that's cool about any concluding match
22:26
Speaker 1: play hole. It offers an opportunity for real variance. I
22:29
Speaker 1: think that's the that's the big thing, right You can
22:31
Speaker 1: you can make a birdie or you can make a
22:34
Speaker 1: triple bogie, and both are relatively common outcomes. I think
22:40
Speaker 1: that that's something in a especially an eighteenth hole, like
22:43
Speaker 1: a deciding hole. You couldn't figure it out on the
22:46
Speaker 1: seventeen other holes. Here, here's one that's going to do
22:49
Speaker 1: it for you. That's there's something compelling about that.
22:53
Speaker 2: I totally agree, and I would say there was there
22:55
Speaker 2: was no mention at all about, you know, whether a
22:59
Speaker 2: tree was hanging too much or if there was some
23:03
Speaker 2: area that needed to be cleared out. Every player played
23:06
Speaker 2: had the same playing field and so they still had
23:09
Speaker 2: this hit the shot in the fairway to get some
23:13
Speaker 2: of it some angle around that tree. And it was
23:16
Speaker 2: very exacting and it was a very good premium placed
23:19
Speaker 2: on accuracy. And I think that is the essence of
23:22
Speaker 2: you know, the match play course has to reward accuracy,
23:29
Speaker 2: execution and nerves. And I think, to me, if you
23:33
Speaker 2: put it under that kind of pressure, I thought Ciphers
23:35
Speaker 2: did an incredible job of that.
23:37
Speaker 1: Do you wish that these features of an ideal match
23:41
Speaker 1: play course that we've been talking about were more common
23:44
Speaker 1: on regular courses?
23:47
Speaker 2: I would have to say I wish more golfers were
23:50
Speaker 2: more open to those types of features on more golf
23:53
Speaker 2: courses because I think we can all we can all
23:55
Speaker 2: build them quite easily. It's still we have we have
23:58
Speaker 2: owners and members to have to uh to have to
24:01
Speaker 2: get it past, and so yeah, the fair police in
24:05
Speaker 2: the renovation world certainly comes out. But yes, I absolutely do,
24:09
Speaker 2: and I think that this sense of adventure and sense
24:11
Speaker 2: of emotion and memorability and uniqueness is lost when you're
24:16
Speaker 2: kind of handcuffed from building those types of features.
24:20
Speaker 1: Andy, thanks for coming on the pod with me. That
24:23
Speaker 1: was great. We'll have you back back again soon, I hope.
24:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, anytime, Garrett. I really appreciate the time. Appreciate it.
24:37
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26:11
Speaker 1: let's get to my quick chat with Brian Schneider. All right,
26:21
Speaker 1: Brian Schneider, thanks for coming on the podcast.
26:24
Speaker 3: My pleasure. It's great to be back.
26:25
Speaker 1: Heurate. So we're talking about what if anything makes a
26:31
Speaker 1: good quote unquote match play golf course. And I've put
26:35
Speaker 1: those scare quotes in there just for you. Brian. I
26:38
Speaker 1: know you have some interesting thoughts on this subject, because
26:41
Speaker 1: back in twenty twenty two you tweeted the following you said,
26:48
Speaker 1: I'm calling bs on the design for match play marketing angle.
26:51
Speaker 1: Can anyone explain how this is different than simply creating fun,
26:55
Speaker 1: interesting golf. The best architects have done exactly that for
26:58
Speaker 1: over a century. So I wonder if you could explain
27:01
Speaker 1: a little further why you think designing a golf course
27:04
Speaker 1: for match play is kind of an empty concept or
27:09
Speaker 1: I don't know if you put it that way, or
27:11
Speaker 1: just you know, not something that actually changes the way
27:16
Speaker 1: somebody might design a course.
27:18
Speaker 3: I think there should be a statute of limitations for
27:21
Speaker 3: how long you can use a tweet. It gets me
27:24
Speaker 3: three years. It is probably about the.
27:25
Speaker 1: Boonder I thought you might enjoy that, you know, I.
27:30
Speaker 3: Don't and anyway discount the idea that some golf courses
27:34
Speaker 3: are better suited than others for match play. I think
27:37
Speaker 3: match plays a superior way to play the game in
27:40
Speaker 3: general and to enjoy the game versus s troll play.
27:44
Speaker 3: But some golf courses are certainly better suited than others,
27:49
Speaker 3: you know. To what I was calling bs on was
27:51
Speaker 3: the notion that certain architects might do different things if
27:57
Speaker 3: match play was the goal of the club versus the
28:01
Speaker 3: things that they would normally do trying to design the
28:03
Speaker 3: best golf course for some other purpose. And you never
28:05
Speaker 3: hear about people designing for stroke play. They just design
28:08
Speaker 3: the best golf courses they can on a given piece
28:10
Speaker 3: of land. And I guess I just assume that, you know,
28:15
Speaker 3: interesting compelling holes which are interesting in match play or
28:19
Speaker 3: stroke play, are the goal of any architect, and it's
28:25
Speaker 3: my you know, I guess I would frame the idea
28:28
Speaker 3: of a match play golf course as gimmicks is not
28:32
Speaker 3: the right word, a tool to help an uncomfortable client
28:37
Speaker 3: more easily grasp It's something that might be unconventional or
28:41
Speaker 3: severe because I think or quirky, you know, I think
28:45
Speaker 3: the best match play holes are those that to offer
28:47
Speaker 3: kind of risk reward. They're kind of stark lines to
28:52
Speaker 3: be drawn and severe penalties to be paid. You know,
28:56
Speaker 3: the idea that somebody might make an aid on this hole,
28:57
Speaker 3: that it only costs you one hole in the match,
29:00
Speaker 3: you know, kind of frees you up to create something
29:01
Speaker 3: more severe. And to me, it's a shame that architects
29:07
Speaker 3: don't feel always feel free to create those sorts of
29:10
Speaker 3: interesting questions and present those sorts of interesting, compelling hazards.
29:15
Speaker 3: And you know, the idea that, well, this course is
29:18
Speaker 3: for match play, so we can do something different here.
29:21
Speaker 3: It feels more like an anglic connse a client as
29:23
Speaker 3: opposed to actually intentionally doing something different than you would
29:26
Speaker 3: normally do.
29:27
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean, I think everybody, including architects who have
29:31
Speaker 1: designed match play specific golf courses, would acknowledge that it
29:34
Speaker 1: is that kind of angle to get not only clients
29:37
Speaker 1: but also golfers comfortable with unconventional ideas. And it sounds
29:43
Speaker 1: like you wish that those unconventional ideas were more acceptable
29:48
Speaker 1: to people on quote unquote stroke play golf courses. If
29:52
Speaker 1: there is such a thing, there really isn't such a thing,
29:54
Speaker 1: and it's just a regular golf course where people are
29:57
Speaker 1: expected to play any format, usually struck play, I suppose.
30:02
Speaker 1: But the interesting point here is that I think what
30:05
Speaker 1: you're saying is that whatever features might be compelling for
30:10
Speaker 1: match play would be just as compelling in strug play.
30:14
Speaker 1: Do you is that what you think?
30:15
Speaker 2: Exactly? Yep, exactly.
30:17
Speaker 1: Yeah.
30:18
Speaker 3: It feels like an angle to make people more comfortable
30:20
Speaker 3: with the idea of creating something that's a little more severe,
30:22
Speaker 3: a little more outside the box. And you know, the
30:26
Speaker 3: two kind of the two courses I know that were
30:28
Speaker 3: specifically designed for match play in received years, a Whoopie
30:31
Speaker 3: and Andy Staples course in Florida. The match there's both
30:35
Speaker 3: super talent and architects that are already doing really compelling
30:38
Speaker 3: stuff and aren't afraid to be, you know, to be
30:40
Speaker 3: building severe features, you know, And I think all of
30:44
Speaker 3: their work that I've seen makes for a great match
30:48
Speaker 3: play golf. I don't think there's anything unique about Fahoopee
30:51
Speaker 3: necessarily that makes it a better course for matchplay than
30:56
Speaker 3: Castle Stewart or a Boston golf club or all the
30:59
Speaker 3: other great places that Guild built. And the work and
31:01
Speaker 3: He's done that I've seen is also really creative and
31:03
Speaker 3: really compelling. And you know, it's my understanding that that
31:07
Speaker 3: golf course in FLOORA is a little shorter, and the
31:10
Speaker 3: average client may not go for something just marketed as
31:13
Speaker 3: a conventional fifty five hundred yard golf course. So the
31:16
Speaker 3: angle of well, this is something different. This is designed
31:18
Speaker 3: for matchplay. It's kind of a hook to get people
31:21
Speaker 3: land on a course that is unconventional in terms of length,
31:24
Speaker 3: in space and whole composition. And I'm sure it turned
31:27
Speaker 3: out really well.
31:29
Speaker 1: One of the courses that you have designed alongside Blake
31:33
Speaker 1: Conan Old Barnwell in South Carolina comes to mind for
31:38
Speaker 1: me when I think of a course that could be
31:41
Speaker 1: really fun in match play. Now it's really fun in
31:43
Speaker 1: stroke play as well, but there are some features at
31:46
Speaker 1: that course that would make for exciting moments in match
31:49
Speaker 1: play exactly because of their quirkiness or severity and their
31:55
Speaker 1: tendency to separate in a in a clear way good
32:03
Speaker 1: shots from slightly less good shots, and so you might
32:05
Speaker 1: have situations and matches where one player might be on
32:09
Speaker 1: one side of the feature and another player might be
32:11
Speaker 1: on the other side of the feature, and there's a
32:13
Speaker 1: big difference in their ability to score well, on the whole.
32:18
Speaker 1: Is that something that you think about when you're designing
32:21
Speaker 1: golf courses in general, Like, I want to create features
32:25
Speaker 1: that kind of you know, manufacture these situations where there
32:31
Speaker 1: might be very different outcomes for two different golf shots.
32:34
Speaker 3: Absolutely, absolutely, wellther it's off the tee. You know, if
32:37
Speaker 3: you're on the left edge at the fairway versus the
32:39
Speaker 3: right edge, you should have a very different shot coming
32:41
Speaker 3: into the green, And whether you miss the green to
32:44
Speaker 3: the right versus the left, your recovery should be entirely
32:46
Speaker 3: different than those things should change based on whole location
32:50
Speaker 3: from day to day. Yeah, you know, different consequences for
32:56
Speaker 3: dramatically different shots. I think is really important if missing
32:58
Speaker 3: right or left soose equally challenging to recover from. There's
33:03
Speaker 3: less thought that goes down to the execution of that shot.
33:07
Speaker 3: So yeah, I do think it's really important that and
33:09
Speaker 3: any given day there might be a favored hangle into
33:12
Speaker 3: a certain green, which it could depend entirely on your
33:16
Speaker 3: preference as a golfer where you want to be coming
33:17
Speaker 3: in from. It doesn't necessarily have to you know, maybe
33:20
Speaker 3: not everylfer today wants to be on the right side
33:23
Speaker 3: of the tenth fairway because that's the easiest place to
33:24
Speaker 3: access a pen. They might be people that want to
33:26
Speaker 3: be left versus right, but there should be very different
33:30
Speaker 3: consequences in different challenges faced by the position from whence
33:34
Speaker 3: you're approaching the green or try to get near the hall.
33:38
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, if there's any critique that I have
33:40
Speaker 1: of a lot of modern golf courses, it's that while
33:44
Speaker 1: there is often a sense of risk reward strategy and
33:50
Speaker 1: a sense that, yeah, things are a little bit better
33:52
Speaker 1: on this side of the fairway versus that side of
33:54
Speaker 1: the fairway, the distinction isn't quite big enough, and because
34:00
Speaker 1: of that, the golf hole might lose a little bit
34:03
Speaker 1: of tension. And so I guess it's just a matter
34:07
Speaker 1: of trying to persuade clients or you know, discuss things
34:12
Speaker 1: with clients and golfers to an extent in a way
34:16
Speaker 1: that allows them to see that it's okay for two
34:19
Speaker 1: very different outcomes to proceed from two shots that are
34:24
Speaker 1: actually technically in the fair way. So I wonder, you know,
34:28
Speaker 1: if you're not using the match play course angle to
34:32
Speaker 1: persuade clients and golfers of the virtue of those kinds
34:36
Speaker 1: of design features. Then how do you go about those discussions?
34:42
Speaker 1: How do you bring clients and golfers along to accept bold,
34:47
Speaker 1: quirky golf architecture.
34:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, but the example of a Varnma, we were very
34:54
Speaker 3: fortunate of client who appreciates and enjoys the type of
34:58
Speaker 3: golf the Blake and I enjoyed and essentially gave us
35:01
Speaker 3: free reign to do what we wanted. And he likes
35:03
Speaker 3: severe greens, which I think are an important component of
35:06
Speaker 3: kind of what we're talking about. There has to be something,
35:08
Speaker 3: something severe or something compelling consequential on the green land
35:15
Speaker 3: of a whole for every proceeding shot to matter. And
35:20
Speaker 3: he was also okay with blindness. You know, there are
35:22
Speaker 3: certain fairways at Old Barnwell and on some of the
35:24
Speaker 3: best courses where if you miss it on the right
35:26
Speaker 3: versus the left, you may not be able to see
35:27
Speaker 3: as well if vice firstall, and he was okay with
35:31
Speaker 3: all those things. And I'm fortunate to be in a
35:36
Speaker 3: place where I don't have to spend too much time
35:38
Speaker 3: trying to convince clients that what I want to do
35:41
Speaker 3: is it's going to be cool. So I think client
35:43
Speaker 3: selection has something to do with that, because it's it
35:48
Speaker 3: could be hard to change someone's mind, especially before something
35:51
Speaker 3: is built. You know that that can be really hard.
35:53
Speaker 3: You know, once it's built, it's easy for people to
35:54
Speaker 3: understand appreciate, but if you're talking about things theoretically or
35:58
Speaker 3: even at the dirt, that can be hard for for
36:00
Speaker 3: clients and golfers to understand. But I think you know,
36:05
Speaker 3: there are you know, there are hundreds of examples of
36:09
Speaker 3: great golf courses and great golf holes. You know, most
36:11
Speaker 3: of the very best courses in the world have a
36:16
Speaker 3: level of severity that the average golf course doesn't have
36:18
Speaker 3: a certain ways, and oftentimes around the greens Augusta Pine Valley,
36:24
Speaker 3: the Old Course, there's there's something really interesting and pretty
36:27
Speaker 3: unique on on going on around those greens that make
36:30
Speaker 3: them wonderful golf courses. So it's easy enough to point
36:35
Speaker 3: at those examples, I think, and you know, just try
36:38
Speaker 3: to clarify and that that every golfer has been fortunate
36:40
Speaker 3: enough to go to all these great places. But but
36:45
Speaker 3: I think exposing clients to great architecture is an important
36:49
Speaker 3: part of that and helping him understand why this course
36:53
Speaker 3: might be interesting, more interest in their home course or
36:56
Speaker 3: the places they have in their neighborhood. I think that's
36:59
Speaker 3: the important part of it.
37:01
Speaker 1: One thing about classic or Golden Age architecture is this
37:06
Speaker 1: severity that you're talking about that people seem to accept
37:09
Speaker 1: because these are accepted classics of golf course architecture. But
37:16
Speaker 1: it seems like owners and golfers these days are hesitant
37:20
Speaker 1: to embrace exactly that kind of severity that they enjoy
37:25
Speaker 1: at those other golf courses. And that's always been kind
37:28
Speaker 1: of funny to me. And I wonder if the rise
37:30
Speaker 1: of stroke play in post World War two America essentially
37:37
Speaker 1: has something to do with that smoothing out of the
37:44
Speaker 1: severity and boldness that seemed to be so much a
37:47
Speaker 1: part of architecture before World War Two, when stroke play
37:51
Speaker 1: was not as ingrained in golf culture.
37:54
Speaker 3: I think the American and it is pretty uniquely American
37:58
Speaker 3: obsession with stroke play. It's the not just the preferred
38:02
Speaker 3: style of playing golf, but almost the unanimous way to
38:05
Speaker 3: play golf is is detrimental to architecture. That's said, I
38:11
Speaker 3: mean it tastes have certainly changed in large Part two.
38:15
Speaker 3: You know, kind of a small group of architects that
38:17
Speaker 3: have taken a different approach to their work, and certainly
38:20
Speaker 3: platforms like yours and you know, popular figures in the
38:24
Speaker 3: podcasting and media world that have beaten a different drunk
38:27
Speaker 3: and helped golfers become more accustomed of things that are
38:30
Speaker 3: different and as opposed to it's people are taking golf
38:34
Speaker 3: trips to places that are different than what they can
38:37
Speaker 3: find at home. You know that that's why you travel
38:40
Speaker 3: to play golf, so you can see something you can't
38:41
Speaker 3: get in your backyard Coorsually, they're more and more of
38:45
Speaker 3: those places being built these days, and I think golfers
38:47
Speaker 3: are more and more in tune with accepting that and
38:52
Speaker 3: embracing and pursuing that. So tastes of change in architecture.
38:57
Speaker 3: I think it's easier now than it was twenty years
38:59
Speaker 3: ago to get away with something that's quirky, er a
39:01
Speaker 3: little more severe than what might been acceptable a few
39:04
Speaker 3: decades ago.
39:06
Speaker 1: And maybe we don't need to call it a match
39:07
Speaker 1: play golf course in order to introduce some of those features.
39:12
Speaker 3: Well, a lot of great golf courses have been built
39:14
Speaker 3: without that moniker and built clients and consumers seem to
39:19
Speaker 3: enjoy them and recognize that they're fun places to play.
39:22
Speaker 1: Thank you for coming on the podcast, Brian. I'll have
39:24
Speaker 1: to have you back on for a longer discussion at
39:26
Speaker 1: some point, but I appreciate you joining me for this
39:29
Speaker 1: short segment here.
39:30
Speaker 3: It's my pleasure look forward to it here.
39:40
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40:45
Speaker 1: right clubs because they have the freedom to use any
40:49
Speaker 1: brand and any head and shaft combination whatever they want.
40:52
Speaker 1: They're not pushing a particular agenda. You go to Club
40:56
Speaker 1: Champion when you just want to find the golf equipment
40:59
Speaker 1: that is right for you. You can get a free driver
41:03
Speaker 1: or iron fitting with a club purchase if you use
41:06
Speaker 1: the code Frida Egg at Club champion dot com slash
41:10
Speaker 1: Frida Egg. Again, that's the code Frida Egg Club champion
41:13
Speaker 1: dot com slash Friday. Check it out all right? Just
41:25
Speaker 1: me now. I wanted to wrap up with a few
41:28
Speaker 1: thoughts on match play golf courses and Bethpage Black in particular,
41:34
Speaker 1: So a couple of takeaways from my chats with Andy
41:38
Speaker 1: Staples and Brian Schneider. For Andy, from the architects perspective,
41:42
Speaker 1: the big benefit of designing a golf course for match
41:46
Speaker 1: play is just the freedom to pursue unconventional ideas. Right.
41:51
Speaker 1: It's not as big of a deal if the course
41:54
Speaker 1: isn't seven thousand yards long from the back teas, or
41:58
Speaker 1: if the par doesn't hit seventy or above. You can
42:02
Speaker 1: have a lot of half par holes. You can have
42:04
Speaker 1: severe or quirky greens, you can have some really punishing
42:07
Speaker 1: hazards because the course's relationship to par doesn't matter as
42:13
Speaker 1: much when the golfer isn't playing stroke play. The way
42:16
Speaker 1: that a lot of golfers judge fairness is if I
42:20
Speaker 1: play this hole really well, I can make a birdie.
42:25
Speaker 1: If I play it just well, then I can make
42:28
Speaker 1: a par. If I play it slightly less well, I
42:32
Speaker 1: reliably make a bogie right. It's all kind of based
42:36
Speaker 1: around this concept of what's the par and is it feasible?
42:40
Speaker 1: And then at the end of the round, if I've
42:43
Speaker 1: played more or less to my average standard, have I
42:46
Speaker 1: recorded a score that matches my handicap. All of these
42:51
Speaker 1: expectations come from the format of stroke play, and they
42:55
Speaker 1: tend to really limit what an architect can do with
42:59
Speaker 1: a course. If the player expects a consistent adherence to
43:03
Speaker 1: par and handicap, the architect has to smooth out some
43:09
Speaker 1: rough edges that the course could potentially have. Now, what
43:14
Speaker 1: Brian Schneider argues is that yes, those pressures on the
43:18
Speaker 1: architect do exist, but they don't change the fact that
43:22
Speaker 1: what makes a compelling match play course is basically the
43:25
Speaker 1: same as what makes a compelling stroke play course. We
43:28
Speaker 1: shouldn't accept the premise that a course where stroke play
43:31
Speaker 1: is the main format should be more conventional or less
43:36
Speaker 1: bold and quirky. You know, half par holes are fun
43:40
Speaker 1: in stroke play too. Variance is fun in stroke play too.
43:45
Speaker 1: That said, I don't really see Andy and Brian being
43:50
Speaker 1: on opposite sides here. I don't really think they're saying
43:54
Speaker 1: terribly different things. Andy in fact acknowledged in our interview
43:59
Speaker 1: that he wished golfers we're more accepting of quote unquote
44:04
Speaker 1: match play design on regular golf courses. Where Andy and
44:08
Speaker 1: Brian may be a little different is just in the
44:12
Speaker 1: messaging of their work to clients and players. Andy is saying,
44:16
Speaker 1: let me help you adjust your expectations by branding this
44:20
Speaker 1: course as a match play venue, and then I can
44:25
Speaker 1: do the kind of design that I would really want
44:27
Speaker 1: to do anywhere and everywhere. Brian is saying, I want
44:31
Speaker 1: clients and players to accept bold, quirky design on every
44:35
Speaker 1: type of golf course. I think these are both legitimate approaches,
44:40
Speaker 1: both trying to push golf architecture in a more creative
44:44
Speaker 1: and innovative direction and that's the important thing. Okay. So
44:50
Speaker 1: with those ideas in mind, let's talk about the Black
44:53
Speaker 1: Course at Bethpage State Park, the venue of course of
44:57
Speaker 1: next week's Ryder Cup. This is a great golf course,
45:01
Speaker 1: but it's not great I don't think for reasons that
45:06
Speaker 1: will be immediately important on TV or in any format
45:12
Speaker 1: of professional golf, whether match play or stroke play. For me,
45:17
Speaker 1: the biggest strengths of Bethpage Black are its land and
45:22
Speaker 1: its routing. It's just a gorgeous, varied piece of land
45:27
Speaker 1: and a pitch perfect, masterful out and back routing. If
45:32
Speaker 1: you want more detail on those subjects, a little plug
45:34
Speaker 1: for Friday Golf Club in the club for our membership.
45:37
Speaker 1: I wrote a course profile on Bethpage Black in collaboration
45:41
Speaker 1: with my colleague Matt Ruschius, where we go into some
45:45
Speaker 1: more depth on the details of the Black Course's land
45:48
Speaker 1: and routing. But as a match play venue and for
45:52
Speaker 1: that matter, a stroke play venue. Right, I've got Bryan
45:56
Speaker 1: Schneider's points in my head right now. I do think
45:58
Speaker 1: Bethpage Black has a couple of weaknesses. The biggest one
46:02
Speaker 1: is a relative lack of interest on and around the greens.
46:07
Speaker 1: So those bright line. Distinctions between a moderately good approach
46:11
Speaker 1: and a moderately poor approach, which Brian and I talked
46:15
Speaker 1: about a little, are not as present at the Black Course.
46:19
Speaker 1: The greens are fairly simple, guarded by rough and bunkers,
46:24
Speaker 1: and I think that volatility, that that is a big
46:29
Speaker 1: part of what can make a tournament course compelling to watch,
46:32
Speaker 1: isn't really there at Bethpage Black. Augusta National could be
46:38
Speaker 1: seen as being on the other side of the spectrum
46:40
Speaker 1: where you see incredible volatility on and around the greens.
46:45
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that you're gonna get that at Bethpage Black.
46:49
Speaker 1: Now we've also talked about how risk reward scenarios can
46:53
Speaker 1: really pop in match play. You can have one player
46:56
Speaker 1: take a conservative route, another player take an aggressive route,
47:00
Speaker 1: and in match play you can see them battle it out.
47:03
Speaker 1: You can see those strategies go head to head. The
47:06
Speaker 1: design of the hole in those cases is enhancing the
47:09
Speaker 1: story of the competition. It's raising the stakes. There are
47:14
Speaker 1: some holes at the Black Course that do this. You
47:17
Speaker 1: have the fourth hole, a par five along the lines
47:19
Speaker 1: of aw telling hasts signature great hazard template for these
47:25
Speaker 1: guys carrying the great hazard, which is a huge bunker
47:28
Speaker 1: cut into a ridge is not going to be a
47:30
Speaker 1: big issue on the second shot. That is kind of
47:34
Speaker 1: the point of the design. But you know, we've gotten
47:37
Speaker 1: where we've gotten with regulating golf equipment, and you know,
47:41
Speaker 1: the hole just doesn't play for professional golfers like it
47:46
Speaker 1: telling has to imagine that it would play. But what
47:48
Speaker 1: should be fun to watch is what happens when players
47:53
Speaker 1: go for the green on their second shots. There are
47:56
Speaker 1: a number of different outcomes possible, including a very scary
47:59
Speaker 1: one behind the green where there's a big runoff, so
48:02
Speaker 1: that should be pretty cool. We will see whether players
48:05
Speaker 1: go right at the green, right at the pin, or
48:08
Speaker 1: maybe bail out a little bit to the right to
48:10
Speaker 1: avoid that possible bad outcome behind the green. I think
48:14
Speaker 1: there will be some strategic variety there. Then the very
48:18
Speaker 1: next hole, the fifth, is an excellent risk reward par
48:22
Speaker 1: four with a big diagonal hazard off the tee. There
48:25
Speaker 1: should be a major advantage given to those who make
48:28
Speaker 1: the long carry on the right side. Then the sixth
48:31
Speaker 1: and ninth holes are solid dog leg par fours where
48:35
Speaker 1: you can choose between cutting the corner and laying back.
48:39
Speaker 1: So overall there is some strategic risk reward design out
48:44
Speaker 1: at Bethpage Black, but in general the fairways are pretty narrow.
48:49
Speaker 1: Some of them have been widened since the twenty nineteen PGA,
48:52
Speaker 1: namely the tenth and eleventh, but for the most part,
48:56
Speaker 1: I don't think the fairways are nearly enough to create
49:03
Speaker 1: different angles. Players will just be trying to hit the
49:06
Speaker 1: fairway any part of the fairway, not necessarily thinking about
49:11
Speaker 1: risk reward positioning. So overall, Bethpage Black great golf course,
49:17
Speaker 1: but does have some weaknesses that limit its appeal as
49:21
Speaker 1: a match play venue. I will say, though, as a
49:25
Speaker 1: Ryder Cup spectator venue, I think the Black Course is
49:30
Speaker 1: going to be fantastic, and this is partly because of
49:33
Speaker 1: how the routing works. Andy Staples made a kind of
49:39
Speaker 1: similar point to the one I want to make when
49:40
Speaker 1: he said that the course builds in difficulty and complexity
49:45
Speaker 1: as it goes on. Fifteen, sixteen and seventeen are very tough,
49:49
Speaker 1: two long par fours and a two hundred yard par three,
49:53
Speaker 1: and appropriate finale for a hard test of golf. What
49:57
Speaker 1: I'd add to that is that fifteen, sixteen and in
50:00
Speaker 1: seventeen all sit in a kind of natural arena below
50:04
Speaker 1: this big ridge fifteen plays up onto the ridge, sixteen
50:09
Speaker 1: plays off of it, and seventeen green is benched into it.
50:13
Speaker 1: And this area I think is going to be absolutely electric.
50:18
Speaker 1: In the Ryder Cup, most of the course travels through
50:21
Speaker 1: the woods, a lot of the holes somewhat isolated from
50:24
Speaker 1: each other, but then with fifteen it just bursts out
50:28
Speaker 1: into this open area. The holes aren't bordered by trees.
50:34
Speaker 1: There's a natural amphitheater effect, and that place is going
50:38
Speaker 1: to be crazy when the matches get there. Hopefully the
50:42
Speaker 1: fans will be respectful, we'll see, you know, there's a
50:46
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people are assuming that that
50:47
Speaker 1: might not be the case. But whatever the attitude of
50:51
Speaker 1: the fans might be, it's going to be very, very
50:54
Speaker 1: loud and intense in this part of the golf course.
50:57
Speaker 1: And it makes such a great contrast with where holes
51:01
Speaker 1: two through fourteen are. Those holes are in the woods
51:05
Speaker 1: one and then fifteen through eighteen are all out in
51:09
Speaker 1: this kind of open area. It's going to be spectacular,
51:12
Speaker 1: and I think that's an important feature of a venue
51:17
Speaker 1: for an event like a Ryder Cup. Not all courses
51:21
Speaker 1: have this dynamic on those closing holes, and so enjoy
51:26
Speaker 1: that part of it. Try to pick up on that.
51:27
Speaker 1: If you're watching from home, try to pick up on
51:30
Speaker 1: it on the telecast. If you're on site, you know,
51:34
Speaker 1: stay safe. It's going to be pretty crowded in this area,
51:38
Speaker 1: but that'll be a fun place to be, all right.
51:42
Speaker 1: I think that's it for match Play golf course design,
51:45
Speaker 1: and for bethpage Black. Enjoy the Ryder Cup. This episode
51:57
Speaker 1: of Designing Golf was produced I will Balsam, thank you.
52:02
Speaker 1: Will so a couple of bits of business here. First
52:05
Speaker 1: of all, we are running a whole design contest that
52:09
Speaker 1: actually involves Andy Staples, one of my guests for this
52:13
Speaker 1: very episode. Andy is building a par three course in Minnesota,
52:18
Speaker 1: and one of the holes on this course will be
52:20
Speaker 1: designed by a Frida Egg Golf Club member. To find
52:24
Speaker 1: out more details about this contest, go to the Frida
52:27
Speaker 1: Egg dot com and if you haven't yet become a
52:30
Speaker 1: member of Frida Egg Golf Club, go to the fridagg
52:33
Speaker 1: dot com slash membership and see everything we're offering there,
52:37
Speaker 1: including this design contest. All right. Second bit of business
52:42
Speaker 1: is that we're releasing a coffee table book. We've been
52:45
Speaker 1: putting this together for a while. We're really excited about it.
52:49
Speaker 1: I've been working on this for several months now. The
52:52
Speaker 1: coffee table book essentially compiles some of the course profiles
52:56
Speaker 1: that we've been writing for Frida Egg Golf Club. We've
52:59
Speaker 1: ref find those course profiles, We've introduced some new imagery
53:04
Speaker 1: illustrations by Matt Ruschius and Cameron Hurtis that that are
53:07
Speaker 1: absolutely fantastic. So if you're interested in a coffee table book,
53:12
Speaker 1: then go to the Friday Egg Pro shop and see
53:17
Speaker 1: what that's all about. But yeah, we're very excited to
53:20
Speaker 1: get this out into the world. And if you would
53:23
Speaker 1: like to actually bundle a Frida Egg Golf Club membership
53:27
Speaker 1: with the order of a coffee table book, we're offering
53:30
Speaker 1: a pretty good deal there. Okay, that's it, thank you
53:34
Speaker 1: for listening, and we'll be back again soon with another episode.