Latest / Pitch to Product / When To File Your Patent: A Timeline For Product Inventors

Transcript

When To File Your Patent: A Timeline For Product Inventors · Pitch to Product

• Robert: I am beginning to think, and this is, you know, my opinion after working with a lot of new inventors that are selling consumer products. I'm beginning to think that if you have a consumer product that you spend a little energy trying to make it look cool as well as be functional. And maybe it's something that's already been out there, but you just got a version of it that looks better that potentially could go viral on TikTok or, you know, these are the ways that new products get discovered these days, right? Jack Dalton: Welcome back to the Pitch to Product podcast and our 52 University Podcast series. Today I'm joined by patent attorney Robert McConnell, who's going to walk us through when you should really start thinking about filing a patent, depending on what kind of patent it is, what your design process looks like. So we'll get into all of that more in a bit. Again, if you haven't met me before via the podcast, I'm Jack Dalton, 52 Launch's Business Development Manager, and I work closely with our patent attorney partners to make sure that we're putting our clients in good hands when they are ready to file a patent or trademark. Robert: Well thanks, Jack. Good to see you again. and I, you know, I've I put together a simple timeline of you know what you what an inventor might be thinking about at each stage in the process. And you know, when when is a good time to start thinking about a patent application and when you know w what should be the final decision point for each of those stages. so let me just start into that, right? which is let's just, you know, this is an an example that you have lots of in your business where someone has an idea for a product and they want to make it a reality, right? And you know that's sort of the beginning of product development. and there I get a lot of clients who are like, I want to file a patent application right now. And my answer to them is, well I really think that you should do some development first and figure out what the product really is because If you start too early, what you file may or may not be detailed enough and things change quickly, right? As you develop a product. You learn new things, you have new innovations, things that you thought were important in the beginning are no longer important. So you know, it's important to time that properly. And so, you know, the the tool that and I I'm gonna talk about two different patent paths. There's the utility patent path. Utility patents cover the way something works. the function. They're kind of the typical what people think of with a patent. And then there's a design patent application process. Design patents cover the ornamental aspects of a useful article of manufacture. So they cover the way something looks. And just a quick like recap of what patent claims are. So the claims of a patent are what really set forth what you're allowed to exclude others from making, using, and selling if you have an issued patent. And for utility patents, they are numbered paragraphs at the end of the application. They are you know, one, two, three, one, a widget comprising elements A, B, and C. and so just for background, if somebody comes along, you've got an issued patent for a widget. With A, B, and C, the re the claims require A, B, and C. Someone comes along and makes a widget that has elements A, B, and C in the United States, they're infringing your patent and you might have a good case for patent infringement. a design patent has just one claim and it it basically refers to the drawing. So the drawings in a design patent make up what really you're allowed to make, exclude others from making, using, and selling in the United States. and that's an important distinction that'll come be critical later on down the road as we talk about when to file. So, you know, in the pre in the early development phase or you know, as you develop a a product on the utility side, we have a tool called a provisional patent application. And it's really an early phase patent application. It requires less formality, less parts. lower filing fees. and you know, the patent office doesn't examine it. They don't even look at it. It just establishes a filing date. And you know that that's all it really does. But it's a good tool if you are developing a developing a product and you get to a place where you're like, I have a lot of the pieces of this. I'm about to go talk to investors, manufacturers, suppliers, you know, people that might actually sell this product. And I want to make sure that the my idea is on file in the patent office before I start going and disclosing it to others. I always tell my clients, you should you know, only work with people you trust, because, you know, the the fact is is that if you don't trust them, you probably shouldn't be working with them because maybe something's gonna happen. But also it's nice to have something, you know, documented proof that you were in possession of this invention as of the date you filed that provisional patent application. So you could do that in at any time in the development phase. I think it's good to have most of you know, a lot of the idea developed and you know locked down and a good time to Do that is before you're talking to anybody about it, right? Because it it sort of in in combination with an NDA helps maintain your ownership of the any intellectual property that you may have developed that's included that that you may patent in the future file a patent application on. So provisional patent applications, you know, i when you file one you should include as much relevant disclosure features, functions, improvements as possible. and the other thing about the provisional patent application is it it does need to support a later non-provisional patent application, right? So, you know, for it to be really useful, we have to be able to draw a line between the technical disclosure in the provisional and the non-provisional and say, look, these features are there, or else the priority date doesn't really mean very much. and so you have one year to file a non-provisional to claim priority to that provisional. And the good news about that non-provisional application is that can include new matter, which is the patent lawyer term for features, new features, functions, new information about your invention. So you could definitely file a non-provisional that has all of what you learned in the development process. and that's what I recommend doing, right? So and let me step back to the beginning here. In terms of patent rules, there's one rule that just really is hard and fast in patent practice, which is that once you file a patent application, you are not allowed to add any new matter to that patent application. You can't say, I left something out here rev revised. here's a revised application, here's new information. you know, we can fix typos, clerical errors, numbering, things like that, but anything new requires a new application. And there are ways to file a new application and still maintain your priority date for everything else, but it does require new applications. So just keep that rule in mind. No new matter, really ever. And so you know in the early development before product sales and manufacture. A provisional patent application is great on the utility side. Unfortunately, there's really no equivalent on the design side. There's no provisional design patent application. And with design patents, because the drawings really are the entire invention and those determine what you can exclude others from making, using, and selling. in the United States, it's important to make sure that the drawings that are filed with your design patent application are as close as possible to the actual product you're selling because you want to be able to protect what you're actually selling. and so we'll we'll cover that in just a second. So when your product is final, you're ready to launch, it's in production. The factory has the final drawings, CAD designs, you know, they're starting to make product, that is a great time to file the non-provisional application for your previously filed utility provisional patent application. This non-provisional, like I said before, you can include all those new tech details, all new features, and we add add claims, which really you know, I'm gonna help you with as a patent attorney drafting like this is what I think my invention is and this is what I want to prevent other people from doing. And this is what I think is new and non-obvious that is entitled to patent protection. and that so it's a good time to file that non provisional. I'll just mention I just want to cover off on dates again. that needs to be within one year of the date of filing the provisional, right? So that's my job as the attorney to remind you you're getting close to that deadline. But but also you should keep it on your calendar. So You know, if for some reason you're not about to launch, but you still want to keep the priority date for the provisional, it it's you'd probably need to file that non-provisional with what you have at the moment, and then go forward from there later with later improvements, which I'm gonna talk about. So with a design patent application, I'm gonna, you know, hammer this home over and over again. The drawings should be the final drawings should be of the final product that you're actually going to sell. Because if somebody comes along and they say, I love the way your your clock looks or your widget or your you know, whatever it may be, they you know, and they they go and start, they find a low-cost manufacturer overseas, they start selling it on Amazon. you want to be able to go to Amazon and say, look, I have this design patent, it covers this product. someone would you know this infringes and I want you to stop let letting them I want you to stop that seller from selling. And I'll tell you from personal experience, you can stop sellers on Amazon with an issued utility or design patent. so it's a very useful tool. but if the product has changed the way it looks at what you're actually selling versus what you actually filed, then there's There's gaps in coverage, right? And you may not be protecting everything that you want to protect. Or worse yet, you could be encouraging someone to copy a product that's not even actually infringing your design patent. And so then it's your design patent application is really not what's the point of it even. So that's you know, just just really clear on the design patent side. one other point about deadlines as we're going through this timeline. All applications for any invention that you want to include in a patent application, be it a utility or design patent application, you need to file that within one year of your first public disclosure, inclusion in a printed publication that includes patent publications, the internet, anywhere, or any offer for sale. So Just keep that in mind as we're going down the road and you're telling people about your product. You really need to make sure you don't miss that deadline, because that can come up later and really be a problem if you're trying to assert your patent rights. So that's let's say now you've gone through those stages, you filed a patent application, a utility patent application. Let's for hypothetical purposes say You filed a utility patent application, a design patent application on your invention. And you know, here are the things that can happen after the patent's filed. So one thing that happens kind of with some regularity is the the patent office is sort of designed to collect fees. And so if they think that there's more than one invention in a patent application, they're going to say, you know what, you've Only paid to examine one patent applic but one invention. So these are two. You have to pick which one. you can file another application with the other invention and pay us. That's the key language, pay us another filing search and exam fee. or you can let it go, right? And that application that is a separate, you know, once they've identified two inventions, is called a divisional. You can also call it a continuation. But basically it's I'm taking this second invention and examining it separately in a separate application. and that can happen at the beginning. It can you can also wait until the very end to decide to do that. so but at any time prior to the payment of an issue fee or abandonment of an application, you can file a divisional if there's two inventions in the original application or even if there's matter that supports two inventions, didn't originally claim two inventions, or a continuation, which is basically the same application with different claims, or you can file what's called a continuation and part. This is where you've added new matter, new features, elements, changes. all the new matter in a continuation and part will get the the will have the priority date of the Filing of the continuation and part application. so you know, that's just something, and that really is the tool to deal with changes that come up, right? Is the continuation and part. And as you're selling your product and you're like, I made this great improvement. I really want to make sure it's covered by a patent application. That's a great time to file a continuation and part application. You've gone into production and your manufacturer says, Well, we've We have to make a change because it'll be just much more efficient to change the way this works and the way it looks. It's going to save lots of money. Well, then you might have to c file a continuation and part application. And you could do that for both a utility application or a design application. and so that can happen at any time during the pendency of your original patent application that you've you could file a divisional. continuation or continuation apart. And you know, this language is all really patent lawyer wonky. and it's hard for non-attorneys, non-patent attorneys to understand. but you know a good patent attorney should be able to translate and say, you've got something new in your invention, you want to add it. This is when we need to do that. And so a couple other deadlines just to cover off of while we're going through a timeline, before six months after the filing date of a design patent application, that you need to file your international design registration application in the Hague system or individually with in specific countries. So like if you're looking to take your design patent application and make it international, you need to do that six months before six before six months after the filing date, right? So once six months passes, you can no longer claim priority to that US application. and then one year for utility patent applications is the same thing. If you want to file an international application either directly in another country or using the patent cooperation treaty PCT system, it needs to be within a year of filing. And then the last deadline And this is before payment of an issue fee if you receive a notice of allowance. Notice of allowance means the patent office has examined your your application and they've determined that you're entitled to an issued patent. And they say, okay, well, you pay us the issue fee and we'll issue the patent. Again, remember the patent office likes to collect fees. and so Jack Dalton: Yeah. Robert: if before you pay that issue fee, you can file a divisional continuation or a continuation in part claiming priority to that original application. So if you new f new features, you can keep that chain of priority alive. and it it become you know, also the rules for patentability, what's required in terms of an improvement over your existing application. are lessened, right? You don't necessarily have to meet those requirements. You may have to give up any extension of a patent term, which is a whole nother you know nerdy patent topic. They don't want you to just be able to keep filing continuations or continuations in part and then extending your patent terms. but in any case you you you can do that. And Just for completeness sake, I just wanna say also those things are all true before abandonment of an application. So this happens too, where you go through the process, you get to a stuck point with the patent examiner. they really only give you two bites at the apple, so to speak, to argue, make amendments before they say, Up, this is final, no more. Again, they want their fee. So and if that happens, you have a lot of options to keep things going and make more arguments. They just all involve paying another filing fee. There's another type of patent application we did not talk about. Another it's really not an application. It's just called a a request for continuing examination. That's sort of the cheapest, easiest way to keep a you know, patent application alive if you get to that stuck point. but you know, it only comes up in it comes up fairly frequently, but it's very specific. So that's kind of the timeline. and you know, I I hope I covered sort of the main questions that come up. Jack Dalton: Yeah. Robert: but you know, let's talk about some of those hypothetical scenarios that you were mentioning at the beginning. Jack Dalton: Yeah, well, you definitely touched on just about everything that I wanted to cover in terms of what's relevant to our team and what's relevant to our clients. I think I'd like to, before I move into some scenarios, really specify the the when of when do you go file a provisional patent as it relates to our process at 52 launch and our six-spoke system with its many steps. So it sounds like you would want to have a provisional patent filed when the design is pretty much finalized, say after design review two, and like right before going to a manufacturer and saying, is this design as is something that you can make at this in this price range? And then so then you would get the provisional patent. Then maybe you go through a third design review just to finalize some tweaks, finalize the design itself. And then you're sending off all your CAD files and actually getting into production. And then at some point in the next year, you're converting your provisional utility patent to a non-provisional, potentially adding a few minor tweaks, but keeping the main idea, the main concepts the same. And then the design patent would be. You would probably want to wait until after the final design review, in which you're at least confident you're not going to make any off the cuff changes. Like you might have a manufacturer-induced change that you would have to deal with separately, but you're not going to change the product yourself after that point. Robert: So just to respond Jack Dalton: That don't make sense. Robert: yeah, that makes sense. And I so I'll let me respond to it in in part. So with the the utility patent and the provisional patent application, this is a totally optional step. It is not required. Jack Dalton: Yeah. Robert: and people use provisional patent applications for a few different purposes. One is it's sort of a a first step in the patent process and it gets your document with your invention in the patent office with a date stamp on it. And that is documentary evidence that you were in possession of that set of information as of the date it was filed, right? and so that, you know, if some if there's a priority, you know, here's the the the situation that people think about that I don't think ever comes up, but it it it's one they worry about is, I'm gonna go talk to a manufacturer. I want to disclose this great idea. And then they're gonna run off and they're gonna get a patent on it and they're gonna start making it and I'm gonna be cut out of the process. And a provisional patent application is a tool that you could use to help avoid that set of facts, right? Because you've already got a priority date established for that technical idea. And somebody who came along and they said, I'm gonna steal this idea and I'm gonna come around and file a patent application. They're They're after you in line, their priority dates later, they lose a priority battle. that's a very oversimplified hypothesis. it assumes a lot of facts about the the identical nature of the inventions and so on and so forth. But but so you don't have to file a provisional patent application. You can. The other reason to file a provisional patent application is you're up against the deadline that you've disclosed. this out in the market, you are offering it for sale, it's on the internet, and it's been out there for, you know, 11 months and and 23 days, and you're like, I gotta get something on file to toll that Jack Dalton: Yeah. Robert: one year on sale bar rule. That is another classic reason that people file provisional patent applications. I don't think so just to sort of speak to your process and model If you have trusted manufacturers that you're working with that you have used over and over again and they have a a strong business relationship with you, you and I'm assuming this is the case, you probably don't have to worry too much about them running off and stealing your idea. It Jack Dalton: Right. Robert: it is a very bad business for anybody who's a supplier to be stealing other people's ideas. It it really is a killer, right? it would be just like if I if I as a patent attorney was like, well, you know what, I'm gonna steal your your patentable invention. I mean, first of all, I would be immediately lose my ability to practice law because it's very unethical. But also Jack Dalton: Yes. Robert: it is just, you know, it's a business killer, right? Like and it's the same is true for suppliers. And you know, if there are if you have suppliers in your in your network, if you're working with a company like fifty two launch who's vetted their supply their manufacturers and trusts them. It maybe is not as necessary. If you're out on your own trying to do this and you're contacting companies overseas, it's a good step to take before you go talk to people. and so yes, you can do that if you want. it is a baby step. It's not a baby step. It's a it's a like I like to say it's like taking a ticket at the Delhi. Right. Like you've Jack Dalton: Yeah. Robert: you've got your ticket for that date, as long as you meet the legal requirements. and so for yeah, go ahead. Sorry. Jack Dalton: I'll actually add a sorry, go on. well, I was just I was saying I would actually add a third kind of rationale for a provisional patent, especially for our clients who you know get partially into the process. We speak to a manufacturer, they give us the tooling costs, they're twice as much as somebody was expecting. And now we're thinking, all right, we have to go. Do some fundraising here to make sure that this goes forward on a timeline that I'm comfortable with. And when you go and start talking to potential investors, even if it's your friends and family, patent pending status is worth something. And it's a lot easier to get it with a provisional than, you know, going and filing a whole non-provisional application. Robert: You are exactly right. And that is one of the great reasons to start the patent process for any inventor or new business owner or existing business owner is, you know, being in that process shows s a seriousness and you know that you're really paying attention to what you're doing, right? And that you you think you have something that's worthy of a patent and that it's new and an invention. And Yeah, and it's a question that investors ask all the time. What what IP do you have? And you know, this is a good moment to just say the other bundle of IP rights that any new business needs to establish and can be done at the very beginning is trademark. So your brand name and your inventions, those kind of go hand in hand. So don't forget the trademark. that one's a lot simpler and the timing of that is is easier just to say, you know, when you've come up with a good brand name. before you start selling, that's the time to to file a trademark application. so with a design patent application, I'd say if you're working with a trusted manufacturer and you're trying to work through the manufacturing process, I would wait until you're you are ready to go into production before filing the design Jack Dalton: Gotcha. Robert: application. If you're working with a not as trusted person, you know, maybe you can, maybe you need to file something. and, you know, it it that it that's a good time to bring in you know, an attorney to ask you, ask, you know, what should I do here? I just continue to think like if you have this feeling that you're going to get ripped off by somebody, don't do business with them. I don't know if that sounds so obvious, but if you if Jack Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, that's good advice. Robert: you feel like you're about to get ripped off, don't do it. so, you know, cause it's you know, patent applications, NDAs, all of those things, you still have to assert your rights at some point and it is an expensive process to do that. so okay, did I answer your questions? I know I t again, I was talked a lot, Jack Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. Robert: so Jack Dalton: And that point on design patents is is good for our team to know and good for our clients to know that, you know, as long as you trust your manufacturer, you have the right agreements in place and all of that, you can wait a little bit longer to ensure what you're protecting is the final design. Now, we covered how you go about continuation in parts for if you get Three quarters of the way through the development process, and you've already filed a provisional patent, but you find this new feature that's really going to differentiate you in the market. That's how you go about adding it. Now we're working with a client right now. Obviously, I'll be very vague, but the client is very inventive, full of energy, already has the V2 and the V3 for their product mapped out in their head. They know that's not in the budget quite yet. But the question is, can I protect future iterations of my product with an application that will also protect the version one of my product? Robert: Yes, you can. do some of that, right? and if if you have ideas that you know you think, this could be a future embodiment, there's a patent word. A future embodiment may be you know, I talked about widget with A, B, and C. I I think maybe there's a D and an E and I think I know what they are, but I haven't done the development work yet. We can put those into patent application, the strength of that content is determined determined by, you know, can you really make this, right? Like do you have enough information? It varies greatly depending on the type of innovation involved, right? If it's something straightforward that you that people, you know, traditional manufacturing methods and science can for sure accomplish. I think, you know, go ahead and put in the application. I you know, and but on the other hand, it's like d the the idea of do I you know the perfect versus the good, right? It's better to get an application on file with what you have at the time because that starts the clock ticking on examin a non provisional application starts the clock ticking on examination and you you it something that we haven't talked about a great deal is there is a big gap between going on sale with a product and when the patent office finishes their examination. It might be two years, right? from the time you file a patent application to when, you know, an issued patent comes out the other end. I've seen it be much shorter. I've seen it be significantly longer depending. So yeah, I just think, you know, you can start to collect those ideas. It is something that I do with inventors. I also encourage them to you know not get too far ahead of themselves, right? Because we do have the continuation and part apparatus and you know we can just sort of step through this in a methodical process, right? Once you have a the the core patent filed, f patent application filed, you you have something to work with. but just one last thing. Filing a non provisional patent application, it's good to get every single thing that you can get into that application in there. any hook you can include is helpful. Jack Dalton: Nice. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. There's you could try. Yeah. Robert: That a pretty good non answer answer, right? Which is we don't you know yeah, you could try, but don't don't get too you know, it's there's no extra points for for getting way ahead of yourself in the patent process because y you don't necessarily know that what's gonna come out the other end is gonna cover what you're actually doing. you know, the way the way that you can really get into trouble is by letting it go too long and then be kind of excluded from the process. Jack Dalton: Gotcha. Yeah, I think that makes sense. the the continuation in part is a very valid approach, especially for a lot of our clients who are moving quickly and getting to market in about a year from day one of working with us. if it's around Robert: And that's that's a great place to use a provisional too, is if you had somebody who's really itching to get something on file, we can do that with a provisional. And then when you file the non provisional, you have that same rule as a continuation of part where you can add new matter and you can just if you've got a year's worth of development in there, what you file is for sure gonna be more substantial than than you know, what's in the provisional. Jack Dalton: Yeah. So we've talked a lot about timelines for when to file applications, when to when should we introduce people to you? Or for somebody working alone, at what point should you think I need to talk to a patent attorney? Like, are there any events that really trigger a need as opposed to as early as possible. 'cause obviously you can't file a patent application without having an attorney that you're working with, or you you probably shouldn't. you could. I I always recommend people Robert: I don't recommend it. Jack Dalton: don't. Yeah. Robert: Also, I don't recommend doing trademark applications by yourself, but Jack Dalton: Mm-hmm. Robert: people do it all the time. yeah, so you know, the first there's the deadlines, the on sale bar deadlines, one year from the date you first disclose your invention, start offering it for sale, put it on the internet, printed publication. if you're getting close to one of those deadlines, a patent attorney needs to come in quickly and assess what's going on. I mean, it could be that there's not an invention worth protecting. and that happens quite a bit. but I think that you know your team probably knows when they see something that's inventive either in the way it works or the way it looks. And you know that's that's the time to say to a client like, hey, you know, we should have this evaluated by a patent attorney. Now one of the things that comes up for me all the time when people come to me is, can I get a patent on this? And my answer is always very lawyerly, which is, it's patentable subject matter, but I don't know if it meets the novelty and non-obviousness requirements without seeing what else is out there, right? Like Jack Dalton: Yeah. Robert: I I work in a lot of different spaces and so I just don't know of the thirteen million plus issued US patents and even more published pat applications just in the US, I just don't know what what may or may not be included in them, right? Just because you don't see it in the market doesn't mean someone hasn't tried to file a patent application for something similar. so we could do a search, but I think it's good to just sort of get that process started. I am beginning to think, and this is, you know, my opinion after working with a lot of new inventors that are selling consumer products. I'm beginning to think that if you have a consumer product that you spend a little energy trying to make it look cool as well as be functional. And maybe it's something that's already been out there, but you just got a version of it that looks better that potentially could go viral on TikTok or, you know, these are the ways that new products get discovered these days, right? And I think those products you should always file a design patent application on. You know, if you have a new design for something that is uniquely ornamental and it's a it's not an exciting new invention from a function perspective, but it looks cool. That like let's get a design patent application on file. They're less expensive and And they kind of work a little bit more like a trademark than a than a utility patent in terms of the infringement standard. So it I think that's always something to look at. And I think that your customers, I'm imagining, are mostly people who are thinking about selling consumer products, right? Their market is the people that are buying things on Amazon and Etsy and You know, and I think it's important to just think about the discovery pipeline, right? Which is I'm I'm guilty of this. I see new things on TikTok and they influence me and then I buy them, you know, and I either buy it on the TikTok shop or go through Amazon and buy it. And you know, if it's something that looks cool and it people start buying, someone else is gonna come knock it off, right? Real quick. And you Jack Dalton: Wait. Robert: know, having a patent, an issued patent. especially in Amazon, is a really powerful tool. In fact, it's so much easier to assert your patent rights within the Amazon e ecosystem than it is to go to federal court. it's so much less costly. that I think right there, you know, I I have worked with clients who have just knocked cheap copies off of Amazon over and over again. because they have patent rights that cover their product. Jack Dalton: Yeah. I think that's really sound advice on the design patent side. I think people get Robert: Mm-hmm. Jack Dalton: really caught up with the utility patent side of things sometimes Robert: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jack Dalton: and they want to get a utility patent on file kind of no matter what, even if their patent attorney is telling them, No, this will probably get approved, but are we really protecting your competitive competitive advantage with this patent? Yeah, the design pat the design is often the competitive advantage with a lot of the products that come through fifty two launches accelerator. So Robert: Right. Right. And I think it's you know, I it's not my job as a patent attorney to say you can't file a patent application. I my job is to help get a pat the the broadest patent protection issue that we ca we're entitled to under the law, right? And so we could do that with utility or design. I just think design is sort of not everyone's first thought. And let me just tell Tell you while we're sitting here a few more advantages of the design patent application and issued patent. the term of a design patent is 15 years from the date of issue versus a utility patent is 20 years from the date of filing. So there's maybe two and a half years of three years of difference in terms of total term. But design patents do not have maintenance fees. So a utility patent. Issued utility patent has very substantial maintenance fees that kick in, especially after the seven and a half year and eleven and a half year mark. I mean, it gets really expensive to maintain patents. The USPTO wants you to let them expire. That does not happen with design patents. So you know, it the the the cost to file and the the cost of maintaining it, it really is it it's a fraction of a utility patent application. So just something to keep in mind, you know, as we're as we're going through the expensive product development process, you know, it's spending our money wisely on protection. Cause, you know, you could spend all your money trying to protect a product, but there's so many other needs in terms of marketing and production and all those Jack Dalton: Mm-hmm. Robert: those capital costs. it's better to to do it in the right proportion. Jack Dalton: Right. Yeah, absolutely. Agreed on our end on that. perfect. Well, I think we covered just about everything I wanted to to circle back to when should people reach out to you or a patent attorney in general. I really liked the answer you gave to that. Kind of as soon as you feel strongly that you have come up with something that is inventive, that's new and Non obvious is the time to start that conversation. Robert: Mm-hmm. Jack Dalton: That sounds to me like exactly the time to start that conversation. Robert: It it's a good time to start the conversation, but let me also just say that you know it a patent application or issued patent is not a successful product, right? Like it's it's a tool to protect other people from a s to protect yourself from other people stealing your successful product, the real value of an issued patent, whether it's utility or design patent. is typically the revenue driven by the the the product that is protected by the that patent or patents, right? So, you know, I I do have clients who get really excited about getting the patent process started. and I I am happy to encourage them, but I also encourage them to spend the capital they need to spend on developing del developing a product that the market wants and needs and is willing to pay for because you know, you you can't go and fix the fact that you didn't apply for patent protection at the right time. But you also can't take that money back and spend it on advertising or marketing when you needed to if you spent it too early. So it's really kind of a balancing act and it's something that I do with my clients a lot. Your team is probably learning pretty quickly what the balancing act is. And so, you know, a good patent attorney should be willing to have that conversation with a client about is this the right time? You know, and you know, I say to people all the time, go do some more development. Come back to me in six months. and and that's fine, you know. Don't tell anybody about it until you you talk to an attorney. I mean you could tell your family so anyway, that's that's kind of the answer. It's it's ev a as with everything in the patent space, it's kind of nuanced and there's not a simple yes or no, but but I think your your sound bite is is a good one on this. Jack Dalton: Awesome. Well, I think our clients and our team will will benefit from listening to this episode. I would be surprised if there were not follow-up questions that we will send your way. probably add to the description on this episode. Thank you again, Robert. Always a pleasure having you on. I believe this is your third time on the podcast. If you listen to this and you were kind of missing some details on the background of The nuance difference between utility and design patent processes or the patent cooperation treaty. Robert and I have covered that pretty extensively on a prior episode. So I would encourage you to go check that out. But otherwise, thank you again for being here. yeah. As always, I learned Robert: Yeah. Jack Dalton: a lot. So Robert: All right. Well, thank you, Jack. It's good to to be here and we'll talk soon.