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Celebrating 100 Episodes of Skin Science · The Science of Skin

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to the Science of Skin Podcast.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Dr.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Ted Lane.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: I am a board-certified dermatologist living in Austin, Texas.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: And with me is my uh co-founder and co-director of the Science of Skin Summit.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: She also is the co-host of the Science of Skin podcast, Dr.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Patty Ferris, who lives in New Orleans.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Patty, how are you?
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm good.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: How are you today?
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm excited, Patty, because this is episode number 100 for the Science of Skin podcast.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: We started this two years ago, and never in our wildest dreams did we think we'd ever record 100 episodes, but here we are.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: No, we did not.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, awesome.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: We are honored and super excited to, you know, first of all, thank everybody who listens.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the things you and I have learned is we have a very loyal following and places that we go.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, we're both in Germany right now on a little business jaunt.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: And even here, Ted, we have international people coming up to us saying, you know, we love the podcast.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm so excited that we found our audience of, you know, skin thusiasts or skin siders as we like to call them.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's amazing.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we as you said, we could be anywhere in the world, and someone will stop us saying how much they they enjoy and learn from our podcast, which is incredible.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and so it's it's just one of those things that's really given us so much joy.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: We we love recording the episodes.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so to everyone listening, uh, we really, really appreciate you.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I thought we might just look back in history a little bit here, Patty, and and go through some of the episodes that that maybe had the most impact.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I think that one of them, I know one of them that's your favorite for sure, is that antioxidant study that Dr.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: Giuseppe Velocki reviewed in uh in one of the episodes that you recorded with him.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that was an incredible, you know, there are some things we have talked about on the podcast that really change clinical practice.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: And this was a study that really looked at what happens to antioxidant solutions when they sit in the bottle over time and discolor, right?
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: We have forever told our patients if it's brown, it's oxidized, throw it away.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: But this study debunked that.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: And what Dr.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: Velocki did was he looked at the antioxidant capability of brand new CE ferulic.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: I believe it was, I can't remember the milestones now, but they were as far as three years out.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: And when it was three years out, it was discolored.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: But what he found was that three years out and turning a little reddish brown in the bottle did not mean that antioxidant serum had lost its antioxidant capability.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: So this is to me was really answered a big clinical question.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what do we tell all these patients coming in with these discolored bottles?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: The answer is we tell them that it probably still has almost all of its antioxidant capabilities and an ability to quench free radicals.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's just, I love that study because the take home for me, well, I don't know if it's right or not, but the take home for me was that is such a powerful serum that even if it is partially oxidized, which you would think would render it a little bit less effective, it has the same efficacy as a brand new product, which again, I think I think that's why C.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: Ferrulica stood the test of time.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's one of those seminal foundational ingredients in a skincare regimen, and they just keep adding new and new data to the compendium of knowledge that we have on that product, which it's really hard to disagree that that it's foundational.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think another thing to be said is there's so much that goes into the formulation, and it has a lot to do with its maintaining its efficacy.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: So what I'm saying is we cannot extrapolate that every single knockoff of CE frulic, and we know now there are many, would have the same benefits if it was discolored.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because what do they call themselves?
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: The antioxidant authority skin seuticals, and I believe that they have rightfully earned that title.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: So another study which we think really has changed our thinking about topicals and and maybe has changed people's practice is the sandwich technique retinoid uh poster that that KenView put out.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: It was more than a poster, it was in a publication that you wrote.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, of course.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so why don't you review that quickly?
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: Such an incredible, incredible study.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: For so many years on social media, dermatologists have been talking about this sandwich technique.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: You put your moisturizer on, then you put your retinoid on, then you put your moisturizer on.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm telling you, Ted, I spend a lot of time in PubMed trying to find out where this came from, and I could never find one study to substantiate that it mitigated retinoid dermatitis or that the retinoid maintained efficacy.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the two pieces of the puzzle I was looking for.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: So lo and behold, when was this, Ted?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: Last year.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: Ken View published or ran this study.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think we published it last year.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: They did the full sandwich, so moisturizer, retinoid, moisturizer, and then they did the half sandwiches, where you put the moisturizer first on and then the retinoid, or the retinoid on first and then the moisture, then the uh moisturizer on top.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: And what they found was that you had to really do the half sandwich in order to maintain retinoid efficacy, and that was so important because the full sandwich does somehow affect the efficacy of the retinoid, and they looked at various biomarkers of retinoid efficacy.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh molecular.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, molecular, molecular targets.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um it was a super interesting study.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now I believe there's going to be a sequel to that, looking at which one mitigates retinoid dermatitis the best.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, is it going to be better to put the moisturizer on her first and then the retinoid or the retinoid first and then the moisturizer?
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's the piece of the puzzle that we're missing.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: But half of my question was answered by this study, and it's a great study.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, we should give a shout out to all the cosmetic companies who do this kind of work.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this is the kind of stuff that we really need to know as practicing clinicians in order to best advise our patients on how to use topical skincare products.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: Couldn't agree more, Patty.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: The two studies that we just mentioned were not run to sell more product.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, they probably hurt sales a little bit.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: But but they did it because they knew it was an open question for dermatologists and and for consumers, and they felt like it was part of their duty to answer those questions.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so kudos to both companies.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think there were some more uh episodes, Patty, that you wanted to highlight, which I think we both thought were really seminal.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think we could kind of group a few of them together regarding skincare for menopause women in menopause and perimenopause.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: And we had great, great, really authoritative guests.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: We had Doris Day, Cavita Marowalla, and Mona Mona as well.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: So uh what it talk to us about those studies.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean, it really wasn't so much studies as it was just a general discussions on the role of menopause and hormonal fluctuations in females when it comes to aging and what kinds of things you can do to mitigate it and to make your life at least as pleasant as it can be when you're going through it.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: And as you know, there's been so much of there's literally been a revolution in the way we view hormone replacement therapy or menopausal hormone therapy, as they call it now.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, there were so many people who were taken off of hormones from that women's uh health initiative study, and a whole generation of women who did not get HRT, who are now suffering with, you know, premature skin aging is probably the least of their problems.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: They have osteoporosis, they have all kinds of medical issues that occur because of a lack of estrogen.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: And all of that is really turning around.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I think we have to give the DERM fluencers a lot of credit for talking about this, the Doristase, Cavita, Mona, all of them, talking a lot to consumers and to patients on social media about the benefits of HRT.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Now, we're not going to put people on hormone replacement therapy for skin.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: We have lots of things we can use on the skin to boost collagen and you know the peptides, the retinoids, it's all kinds of things.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: But for all of the other systemic effects of menopause, HRT is definitely, you know, the king, at least at this point.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, my turn.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I was looking back and I really enjoyed the episode I recorded with Dr.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: Shannon Humphrey about skin quality.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: She had published on that regarding the metrics of skin quality.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we're in the era now of longevity in skin care, and and we talk all about molecular biomarkers and and different endpoints that we should look at beyond the clinical endpoints.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't think we're ever going to go away completely from the clinical endpoints, which do essentially refer to skin quality.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I just think that uh publication that she put out is was so seminal and it's not going anywhere.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, despite all of our pleas to look at what's going on underneath the skin in terms of endpoints for clinical trials, we have to include clinical endpoints as well.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: So skin quality isn't going anywhere.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: And skin quality, a lot of times what patients come in really looking for.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, my skin looks dull.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like it just, you know, it it's this sort of nebulous, which I think she really did a great job defining it.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: But it it's something patients appreciate, uh, but they don't exactly know how to articulate it all the time.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think there may be uh better ways for us to assess skin quality than just clinical endpoints, but in the end, beauty in the in the age of longevity will have to include phenotypic beauty, like what we see in the mirror or what we see in other people, as well as molecular beauty and how in terms of what the epigenome is doing and number of senescent cells and how our RNA splicing is acting and all of those hallmarks of aging that we talk about.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, it's just again, we always have to go back to skin quality, I think, and and use that as foundational for everything we talk about.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, another one that I loved was, and and I feel like you did this one, Patty, the complimentary skincare with Peter Leo.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I did.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think he did it.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: I can't I've I've spoken with Peter on the podcast.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we should just give a shout out to Peter Leo because he's literally our favorite human being.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: He's not only the smartest dermatologist, but he's so wonderful to work with.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: He's just always so great to work with.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: So lucky us that we've got him as a friend and as a colleague.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: But but you did this, and it was a really great episode because nobody knows more about moisturization, treating patients with things like atopic dermatitis, which Peter has an integrative atopic center, so revolutionary in Chicago.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I you guys talked about a lot of interesting things.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we talked about all this different kind of Eastern medicine, traditional Chinese medicine, different ingredients that he gets compounded for some of his atopic patients as well.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: It really just opened my eyes to the fact that in Western medicine we close ourselves off from centuries and centuries of not necessarily published data, but use and experience.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: And he was really using that to uh to his advantage for his patients.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I just love the the incorporation of Eastern and Western combined.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that that was great.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: The next one that I think we should talk about is the gut skin connection with Jennifer Fugo.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: You did a great job with that one.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and speaking of Peter, so she knows Peter Leo and works with Peter Leo's patients.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so she reached out to me, and I'm like, I don't know who she is.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, but she dropped the Peter Leo name, and I'm like, okay, well, obviously she's totally legit.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: And we we had an incredible discussion.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Her story was interesting, Ted.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: She became interested in the gut-skin connection because she had really bad skin problems herself.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: She had dyshydrautic hand eczema, like really bad, and she also had Hydradenitis suburativa.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so she was working in her dad's family practice.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: She wasn't even a medical person, and she started understanding and realizing and talking to patients about their nutrition.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: So she went back and she's got like umpteen million degrees and nutrition and all of these things, extremely well credentialed.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: And now she counsels patients with inflammatory skin disorders and works up their bowel and looks at their microbiome.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, she puts the science in that whole gut-skin connection.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: She's phenomenal.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: I encourage anybody who did not hear that episode.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: It was probably episode number five or something.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: It was one of the early ones, but it was so good, and I was just in awe of her.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I've I follow her now and I listen to her podcast.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, another episode, Patty, which I think you and I loved and we've had such great feedback on was with Dr.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Merrick Elias on human trafficking.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, I remember saying at the beginning of that, I very rarely get on a podcast where I don't know anything about the subject, but I didn't know anything about human trafficking.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that was a scary podcast and a very enlightening podcast.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, how great of him to be out there talking about what dermatologists should recognize uh, you know, in a patient who may have been trafficked.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: And he gave us all kinds of signs, different tattoos, things in the mouth, uh what they might present to the emergency room with.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: It was super interesting.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I I I just learned a lot.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: It was very enlightening.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: So again, I encourage everybody to take a listen.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that was a great podcast episode.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we've had some other really interesting groups of podcasts.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: We did the pioneers, right?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Where we think about Dr.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: Zayn Obaji, Dr.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: Carl Thornfeld, and Daniel Your Roche as well for DNA repair.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, some real pioneers.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Carl, of course, using botanical ingredients, Dr.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: Obadji, you know, putting the whole regimen together and focusing on the power of skincare early, early on.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean he really paid.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: I was so fan.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: I was fangirling on all of those episodes.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've read Your Roche like 8,000 times.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Every paper he has, every time I had a chance to talk about it, I have to go back through it.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, DNA repair enzymes and all the seminal work he did.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Zanobaji basically invented the cosmosceutical regimen, put it in a box, and gave it to dermatologists and said, do this.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it was genius because it works like a charm for hyperpigmentation and for skin quality and making you look good.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: And he believes that you should get some degree of retinoid dermatitis at the very beginning.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, if it's not doing that, it's not working.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's just super interesting.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: He's got a he's a renegade, he's got his own beats to his own drum.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: He's a very cool and a very smart guy.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love, and by the way, his episode was one of our most widely viewed episodes.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then Carl Thornfeld, who like was into the botanical thing before it was a thing.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Growing his own ingredients, putting them in, testing them against retinoids.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: I remember when he told me he did that.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, you didn't.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: He said, I did.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: I tested it against, it was Trent Nolan.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he's pretty brave back when he was doing it, was really brave.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then we had the benzene episodes where I was able to that was awesome.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was able to interview a formulator and a toxicologist, Peter Fultis and Thomas Ray.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: I just love those episodes because we were able to use the science and their 30 plus years each of experience to go through what do we really need to worry about here?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything there?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and since then, I think a lot of the the commotion about benzene and benzyl peroxide products seems to have passed by and calmed down.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I don't think we're too worried about it anymore, although certainly we need to pay attention to the heat uh surrounding our our benzyl peroxide products.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: But um I just really enjoyed those because we were able to bring two experts together in two different episodes to talk about the publications that had come out um over time.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, we have kind of our final group, I think, is our episodes on business, the business of skincare.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: And we had some real heavy hitters here.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: We had uh Jonah Shacknai, um, who of course developed and sold Medicis and then Skin Better.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: Just a genius.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: A genius genius.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: He's so smart.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: You spent time with him.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: He's incredible, and then we had Tina Fair, who at the time was the hell of Lor uh head of L'Oreal Dermatologic Beauty, LDB as we call it.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, she took that little division of L'Oreal and blew it up and bought skin better, by the way.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's how smart she was, because that's such a great dermatology heritage brand.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: I love that brand.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: And she bought that and she just she sees the market in a way that I don't know, she's like clairvoyant.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like she knows what's happening before it's happening.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean and then the combination of of Tina and Jonah together for some time.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Just was like two geniuses in one room.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then we had uh I had the opportunity to to interview Lauren Otsuki from Glow Pharma, who's just a serial entrepreneur in both medicine and skincare.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: She she helped to found Skin Medica, for example, now ourselves, and Eric Ducorneau from Pure Fob, the CEO of Pure Fob as well, which I was just in awe of him as a lawyer.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: He kind of worked his way up the ranks, and I love the charitable mission of that company as well.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that they do a lot of great work, a lot of great things.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think we've kind of gone through so much of what we've done over the last two years, over a hundred episodes, many more to come.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: We're now dropping episodes every week.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: So uh we'll hit the 200th episode before you know it, Baddy.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully it won't be two years from now.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe next year.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we'll get we got to get a hundred more under our belt.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: But it's been a great run.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: And again, we have to thank everybody who listens, and we're we're so humbled by your compliments and and the fact that you give us your time.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: So we hope to keep bringing really exciting episodes and scientifically, you know, relevant things that you can use if you're a scientist or a researcher, a cosmetic formulator, or a research scientist, or a practicing dermatologist, or practicing aesthetic physician anywhere.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this is the Science to Skin podcast.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for listening.
• 19:24
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• 19:28
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• 19:34
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• 19:36
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• 19:38
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• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: So please stay tuned and thanks again for listening.