Latest / Beyond the Facade with Choose Recovery Services and Blueprint Institute / 56: Understanding Entitlement vs. Authentic Needs

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56: Understanding Entitlement vs. Authentic Needs · Beyond the Facade with Choose Recovery Services and Blueprint Institute

0:00
Hey everybody, So I got a question for you.
0:02
If infidelity isn't just about sex or secrecy and it can come
0:06
from something deeper and we think about what happens when
0:10
one partner believes that they're simply entitled to
0:12
something more. We have a therapist, a
0:16
researcher, I guess you say, Hope Ray, joining me today to
0:19
explore some of the roots causes or the roots of entitlement in
0:23
relationships and how it can feel betrayal and often some of
0:28
the missing signs. So don't know how much you know
0:30
about this word entitlement. I know for me, the stuff that
0:33
I've gotten from Hope, it's been a big deal.
0:35
So that's we're going to go into today.
0:39
Welcome to Beyond the Facade podcast.
0:41
I'm your host, Luke Gordon, and I'm thrilled to have you join me
0:44
in the space today. What we're going to be doing is
0:46
diving deep into the trials and triumphs and truths of seeking
0:50
authenticity. Becoming your true self isn't
0:53
about a single action or a moment.
0:55
It's a relentless pursuit, a commitment to self that reveals
0:58
a rich connection and meaning that our life has to offer.
1:01
So whether this is your first time tuning in or you're a
1:04
regular listener, know this. What you're building here goes
1:07
beyond a conversation. You're here to challenge, to
1:09
change, and to celebrate the incredible journey of becoming
1:13
your authentic self. Because when you dare to show up
1:15
fully, the rewards are immeasurable.
1:18
So welcome to Beyond the Facade. Let's get started.
1:22
All right, so just want to introduce Hope for a second
1:25
here. So she's a therapist that's out
1:27
of Michigan. She certified a couple different
1:29
things I think are really noteworthy in this conversation.
1:32
One, she's a certified clinical partner specialist with apps,
1:36
apps and they're experts on betrayal trauma.
1:39
And also she's a certified sexual addiction therapist.
1:42
And one of the things we're going to talk about today, she's
1:45
also the creator of the Dire model, which is what we're going
1:49
to be basing our conversation off of.
1:51
So Hope, feel free to defend yourself.
1:53
What do you want to let people know about you?
1:56
Well, they should probably know how much I care for and respect
2:02
the work that you and Ilana do, that we have a friendship and
2:05
I've known each other now for some years and has spent a lot
2:08
of time together, both collaborating together, you 2
2:11
and me or having you participate as a what would you call that,
2:17
Luke? I guess you were there to kind
2:19
of help facilitate and guide discussion as a support in the
2:26
first Dire group that I ever ran.
2:29
So that was just a joy and an honor to have you there and
2:32
supporting me and the men that way.
2:34
So they should probably know that we know each other well and
2:37
that we've been able to collaborate together.
2:40
Yeah, that was cool. We had a conversation one day
2:42
where Hope invited me to help facilitate more of just support
2:47
her in this new new. It was the first time you rolled
2:50
out that group, right? Right.
2:51
It was the live beta group where I invited several men from
2:57
across the country in a few different countries to
2:59
participate. And that is how I launched the
3:02
program and was able to refine it because of their feedback and
3:06
what did and didn't work for them so.
3:09
Yeah, it was a pleasure to be a part of that.
3:10
And I would say I was more of a participant than anything else.
3:12
I learned a lot and I'm excited to talk about some of those
3:15
things today. So there's this, your dire
3:19
model. Do you mind doing an overview of
3:21
it so we can dive into something that I'm really excited to ask
3:23
you some questions on? Yeah, that sounds great and I'm
3:25
so grateful for the opportunity. So I imagine a lot of your
3:29
listeners are in a more advanced state of recovery.
3:32
Maybe there's folks coming to you right out the gate of maybe
3:35
getting caught or being in the crisis of early discovery and
3:39
betrayal. But for men who have found a way
3:42
into sobriety or they've stopped acting out, they have enough
3:45
structure around their sexual behavior.
3:48
They're becoming more healthy in that arena.
3:51
They're often working really hard on honesty and integrity
3:55
and empathy and emotional intimacy with their partner.
3:59
They're working to improve themselves in those areas.
4:02
But what I find for men in advanced recovery is that they
4:06
often get really stuck. And the stuckness is because
4:09
there's some old programming going on there that is really
4:12
intolerable for their partner because it it shows these red
4:16
flags of old programming to her that says, listen, you might be
4:20
faithful to me now, but there's still this old mentality.
4:23
There's still these thinking constructs that make me feel
4:27
unsafe. And so our trust can only
4:29
rebuild so far. They don't often have that
4:31
second order, highest order change trust being built at the
4:36
time. And a lot of partners feel like
4:40
they're waiting. They feel like everything
4:42
revolves around him. And that ends up becoming really
4:46
frustrating for both parties in the marriage.
4:48
But here's the thing, Luke, these men, they say to me, tell
4:52
me what I need to do and I'll do it.
4:54
They don't know what they need to know, but they're wanting to
4:57
find it, right? So over the years, having worked
5:01
with hundreds of couples, become really familiar with this fallow
5:05
period, I call it. I learned that there are some
5:07
things that they're doing that they don't realize that are
5:10
deeply embedded and are still working against the trust
5:14
rebuilding process. And so I've been able to
5:17
identify 4 maladaptive character traits that I believe apply
5:21
across the board. No matter if somebody feels that
5:25
he is or isn't a sex addict, no matter if there's
5:28
neurodivergence or differences on board like autism or ADHD, No
5:33
matter if there's some personality issues around
5:36
narcissism or if there's a lot of childhood trauma, it doesn't
5:40
really matter the constellation of diagnostic material.
5:44
All of these men find themselves in one common place, and that is
5:50
they maintain a relationship with their partner while
5:54
secretly and repeatedly violating fidelity.
5:57
And then they use deception and gaslighting to cover it up.
6:01
They use exploitative tactics, taking advantage of their
6:06
partners time and domestic labor and trust and spiritual
6:10
conviction in the process of trying to keep things hidden.
6:13
And I do believe that the majority of folks in that
6:17
situation have made many choices to be there.
6:21
It's not by accident they end up there, but I believe what
6:24
undergirds that crossover into abusive behavior is these 4
6:29
maladaptive character traits. And I talk about dire as
6:33
detachment, incongruence, regression, and entitlement.
6:37
And so my program is called Getting Dire Straight.
6:40
And what we're doing is we're attenuating those four pieces
6:44
that most men have in common because it's not enough for them
6:48
just to become faithful. They have to undo old
6:52
programming, deconstruct so that they can provide the highest,
6:57
most potent and quality versions of honesty, intimacy, empathy
7:02
and integrity. And so most of the men who come
7:05
to my program are already working on those things, but
7:07
they're kind of blocked. They have like a ceiling on how
7:10
far they're able to really develop in those areas because
7:13
they haven't really looked at the dire traits.
7:15
And that's what we're working to do.
7:17
I love that I think about phase one if we refer to Patrick Karns
7:21
work, not phase one but step one, which is breaking through
7:25
denial. How much of it do you think is
7:28
subconscious and how much dire helps them see things that they
7:31
couldn't see before? That's a great question.
7:34
Well, I do believe most of the men.
7:37
I mean this program is for men in advanced recovery.
7:39
I don't want somebody in there who's still trying to figure out
7:42
how to get sober, right. That's foundational beginning
7:47
work that needs to be accomplished before they can
7:50
really look into some of these deeper issues.
7:52
And they have more wherewithal to do that when there's been a
7:55
period of sobriety. But I think that the men end up
8:00
being more surrendered naturally by way of a good solid structure
8:05
for their mind and their behavior.
8:07
And then they start to kind of awaken to how these dire traits
8:13
are showing up, and I help to reassure them that even if I
8:16
don't know these men, I know them.
8:19
In other words, these 4 traits, they all interplay together.
8:23
They go together, they act like a saiphonophore, this kind of
8:27
independent but all connected network of traits that really
8:31
form early on in childhood. For good reason.
8:35
We frame the dire traits as having once been necessary.
8:39
Being able to detach when you're enmeshed with your mother is an
8:43
important way to survive. Being able to show up
8:46
incongruently is an important way to survive when you when
8:50
there's a lot of anger in the home or rigid demands and being
8:53
able to show up so you don't get in more severe trouble, but hide
8:58
what you really feel inside. I mean, these would be examples
9:01
of more extreme versions of childhood trauma that create
9:07
this type of programming, but it outlives its value once men
9:11
become adults who are trying to rebuild trust in their
9:15
relationships. These self detective types of
9:18
mechanisms are working against the trust rebuilding process.
9:22
OK, thank you. Probably one of the most
9:24
enlightening parts of listening to you take me through Dire and
9:27
the other men I was around was the entitlement piece.
9:30
So how do you define entitlements when it comes to
9:33
relationships and betrayal? Yeah, well, I have a definition
9:38
of entitlement that's extracted and separate from narcissism.
9:42
I think pop Psychology Today has tried to corner the market on
9:46
what entitlement means. And often it's painted as this
9:50
very grandiose self-image, this idea that I'm better than
9:54
others, I deserve more than others.
9:56
But the type of entitlement that I see at play for the men I work
10:00
with is usually the opposite of that.
10:04
In other words, there sense of masculinity feels threatened.
10:09
Their internal dignity feels like it's getting squashed
10:14
because of how others view them. So in effort to protect
10:17
themselves from feeling squashed, they may display or
10:21
exhibit entitlement, which is hey, I don't deserve that kind
10:25
of treatment. Or if that's how you're going to
10:28
be toward me, then I'll withhold this from you.
10:31
And so these kind of dynamics that are deeply rooted in a
10:36
sense of not wanting to be stamped out because they don't
10:40
feel secure and anchored in their own dignity and worth and
10:43
value. The definition for it is
10:46
essentially a sense of deservedness that's rooted in
10:50
self protection versus being anchored in one's own inherent
10:55
worth and dignity, which is immutable, unchanging.
10:58
And somebody lays whole, lays claim to their dignity.
11:01
They're able to withstand more pressure and even mistreatment
11:05
than they realize. They're also able to be
11:07
abundantly generous with the amount of sacrifice and effort
11:10
they bring to their relationship.
11:12
And they stop trying to keep score about how much their
11:15
partners coming to the table for them.
11:17
What do you think about the resentment piece?
11:20
Like you know, out of resentment shows up entitlement or just am
11:24
empowered And I don't know. I don't even necessarily know
11:27
the right way to ask this question.
11:28
Hope, but I'm just picturing the resentment and it fueling some
11:31
level of deservedness. Any thoughts on that?
11:34
Absolutely. I think when people aren't aware
11:38
of the entitlement at play within their mentality,
11:43
resentment is a natural byproduct of that.
11:45
And we do talk a little bit about resentment, but honestly,
11:49
I think the 12 step programming really handles resentment very
11:52
well. So we're looking at finer
11:53
details in the Dyer program, but the outcome of having
11:58
resentments certainly fuels more negative self protection.
12:03
In other words, you're going to stop being more generous than
12:07
you feel people deserve. You're going to stop putting
12:10
forth more effort where you feel you've done enough or you've
12:13
earned your way at this point. And as you know, in the program,
12:17
we use a lot of references from BUDS Training in Navy SEAL
12:22
Candidacy program to identify ways in which people can learn
12:27
about teamwork in a different way rather than the self
12:31
protective type of programming that's so deeply embedded.
12:34
It's very hard to see. Except I'll tell you this, and
12:37
Luke, you know it. The wives see it.
12:39
And they've been trying to. The wives see it.
12:41
Yeah, they've been trying to call it out and I have so many
12:44
men who say I get it now. What she was saying, it felt
12:47
really offensive to me until I understood what she meant.
12:51
And it's, and it's, I don't want to use the word impossible, but
12:54
it's so hard to see it when she's talking about it.
12:56
But when somebody else talks about it, it can feel a little
12:59
bit easier to see. I really want possible to see.
13:02
And I, I don't know why, but the word doormat keeps coming up for
13:05
me as a part of the journey of feeling like I don't have any
13:08
power. I've relinquished my power.
13:11
But I think it was you. It was saying that like there's
13:15
this and Jake Porter, doctor Jake Porter refers to this.
13:19
And I, I think if you guys will allow me to stumble over my
13:22
words a little bit, but I feel some passionate about this till
13:24
we talk about a power imbalance that exists in a relationship
13:28
and a power. The power is, it feels like, and
13:32
I'll speak as a man and what I hear men say is now she has all
13:36
the power. And I'm like, is that true?
13:38
Is that really true? Because at any point you can,
13:43
you can say yes or no, you can take that back.
13:46
And it's so problematic to view myself as not having power when
13:50
I have actually have the ability to take my power back.
13:52
And I think that shows a lot of a lot of the I can feel like I'm
13:58
a doormat when I'm just showing up in a very much a victim
14:01
place. And I think that has something
14:02
to do with entitlement too. Yeah, certainly that entitlement
14:07
would be one of the four undergirding features of that.
14:11
But the way that I explain it or teach it in the course is that
14:16
we have this potential to become a floating St. when we're
14:19
working to make penance for things we are truly ashamed of
14:23
having done because we understand the pain and damage
14:25
it caused. But the truth is that for anyone
14:29
to say that they're powerless, that would mean they've emptied
14:34
out of that power. And most of the time, the men
14:38
who are in that, what I call floating St. mode are actually
14:42
operating in passive control, meaning it feels very powerless.
14:46
It feels very much like their tail is tucked, but it's
14:49
actually passive form of control because it's inauthenticity.
14:54
And that inauthenticity is something that they have to
14:56
target right away because if they don't, then all of their
15:00
performative efforts to rebuild trust don't land well on their
15:04
partner. Why?
15:05
Because she can tell it's not really him.
15:07
He's therapy speak. He's doing the strategies that
15:10
you know, he's been told to show up with.
15:14
And at the end of the day, if he doesn't find his own rooted
15:17
authenticity and deal with the fact that, especially with
15:20
within entitlement, there's been some real fear that he's getting
15:24
squashed in this process. If he doesn't learn to anchor in
15:27
his own dignity, worth and value, then he will never be
15:31
able to really translate how trustworthy he has become to his
15:34
partner. Because there's too many veils
15:36
over his performance mode. There's too many barriers
15:40
between his core self and what she's seeing and detecting from
15:44
him. And so that's really the work
15:46
that we're doing to bring that down.
15:48
And in doing so, this is how somebody addresses a power
15:51
differential over time by moving out of powerlessness into a
15:57
place that is more about equity and showing up from that place.
16:02
How do you see them making that move?
16:04
Just besides getting the information and understanding
16:06
it, what actions do you see them taken?
16:10
Well, I have a whole, you know, a whole method that I teach them
16:15
to power down from all that strategy and performance into a
16:20
basic authenticity. That's what we do in segment 1
16:22
of Dire Program. The floating St. is all about
16:26
getting to your most basic authentic self, but it's
16:30
uncomfortable. You can't stay there, first of
16:32
all, but it is important to start there.
16:35
It's uncomfortable for them to get there because they don't
16:37
feel their authentic self is welcomed by their partner.
16:41
She's in pain, she's experiencing trauma many times
16:44
she's not interested in what he thinks and feels right.
16:47
So it's hard to display authenticity.
16:50
So what we do next is we start to attenuate those dire traits.
16:54
We begin to deconstruct them and clear out space of old
16:58
programming. And then in segment 3, we're
17:01
installing a new version of Self by taking a look at what I call
17:07
the pure method. Now, what I believe is that men
17:10
who get into secret sexual behavior that they keep from
17:14
their wives, I believe that they're looking for something,
17:17
whether they have a sex addiction or whatever, they're
17:20
whatever they call it, they were looking for something to fill a
17:24
void to escape from, and then they get caught and then they're
17:29
in the throes of crisis and trying to rebuild and stabilize.
17:32
It's not until really they get here and do this work that they
17:36
actually find that thing that they've been looking for all
17:39
along, which truly always comes down to a stable sense of
17:43
internal worth and value, the ability to be present and
17:47
authentic. That's where life is.
17:50
That's where freedom and healing really is.
17:52
That's where people feel like they are stepping into the
17:55
fullest version of themselves. So once we've cleared the space
17:59
in Segment 2, that's what we do in Segment 3 then is how do you
18:02
inhabit yourself, embody yourself in a way that shows her
18:07
this change is actually real, allows you to emerge in a way
18:11
that feels comfortable and healthy and whole for you as
18:13
well. We're going to take a quick
18:16
break for a moment. I want to let you know of some
18:17
things that we have coming up at Choose Recovery Services.
18:22
Hey friends, it's Hallie Roderick here and I wanted to
18:24
personally invite you to an incredible opportunity coming up
18:27
this summer from July 8th to 11th.
18:29
Luke Gordon and I will be Co facilitating a help her heal
18:32
intensive for men in Spanish Fork, UT.
18:35
And if you're a man who's serious about rebuilding trust,
18:38
creating emotional safety, and doing the deep work of repair
18:41
after betrayal, this space is created specifically for you.
18:45
This Four Day Intensive is not a lecture series.
18:48
It's a deeply experiential process designed to help you
18:51
feel the shift, not just understand it intellectually.
18:55
Together, we'll explore powerful tools and practices to help you
18:58
develop real empathy, shame, resiliency, and a clear
19:02
understanding of betrayal trauma so you can begin to show up as a
19:05
safe, trustworthy partner again. You'll also have the opportunity
19:10
to connect with other men who are on the same path.
19:13
Men also committed to growth their integrity, doing the hard
19:17
work and the beautiful work of relationship repair.
19:20
So whether you're just beginning this process or you're well on
19:22
your way, this intensive can be a powerful next step in your
19:26
journey towards healing. So if you're ready to move
19:28
forward, we'd love to have you join us.
19:31
So to learn more or to reserve your spot, check out the show
19:35
notes where you'll find a link to reach out to our office.
19:38
So let's do this work together. Hope to see you in Utah.
19:43
Let's get back to our episode. I remember you talking about in
19:46
your course. I remember you talking about
19:49
where entitlement came from and going back to family of origin
19:53
or watching how mom would show up in a relationship with dad.
19:59
And I remember that being like, wow, I never thought about that
20:03
way before. How much is it?
20:04
How important? It sounds like I'm loading this
20:06
question. I'm really not hope, but.
20:08
How important is it for to know the origin of and how we where
20:12
we learn entitlement from? I love that question.
20:14
I speak directly to it in the program.
20:17
You probably Remember Me saying we need to go back and excavate
20:20
that territory to figure out why it became necessary for you to
20:23
employ this tactic. But once we have that knowledge,
20:27
it doesn't mean you need to go back and do a ton of family of
20:29
origin work around that. I do think that can be helpful,
20:33
particularly when we're looking at what would qualify as adverse
20:37
childhood events or what I call cardinal wounds.
20:40
That stuff does need to be tended to and and brought to
20:44
therapy. But sometimes just the awareness
20:48
of it is enough for a man to make a new choice.
20:51
Because once he's been able to pinpoint why he started thinking
20:54
a certain way, it illuminates to himself.
20:56
Holy cow, now I realize how trapped or held back I've been
21:02
since my mentality was so limited to that type of approach
21:07
to people, particularly the opposite sex.
21:10
And it allows them to feel more freedom to show up in a way that
21:15
isn't so fearful and isn't so self protective.
21:19
That's part of where the authenticity begins to blossom.
21:23
And we don't have to get way into the weeds of how you go
21:25
about it in your group. People can go there and explore
21:27
that with you because that's the, it's going to take a lot of
21:30
energy and time and it's all worth it.
21:33
But I do remember you showing up talking about how mom would
21:37
respond to dad and how mom either would come from a place
21:40
of I want people to have like a little bit of a taste or a
21:43
teaser of what happens inside of your, if that's appropriate
21:46
language inside of what happens inside of those groups.
21:51
Because remember you talking about how mom would show up with
21:53
either really more subservient. Is that the right word?
21:57
Or the exact opposite, which is almost like of not having a
22:00
level of respect for the her partner for whatever reason.
22:05
It might be one or the other, but can you help with that?
22:08
Yeah. So when it comes to entitlement
22:11
specifically, we're looking at the template for intimacy that
22:15
was established with the son and his mother or his maternal
22:19
caregiver. Some people were raised by their
22:21
grandparents or by foster parents.
22:24
Some people didn't have a mom or they had a wonderful mom and
22:26
then she had passed away at some early age.
22:29
So there's a whole array of things that can happen in
22:33
childhood that either create a good foundation for connecting,
22:38
bonding, having intimacy with the opposite sex, or can make it
22:42
scary. So the common dynamic that I
22:45
talk about is if there was over nurturance from your mother in
22:48
the area of intimacy, then we're looking at somebody who was
22:52
maybe enmeshed with her son, relying on him as a surrogate
22:55
partner, talking to him about things that were inappropriate,
22:58
expecting too much of him, placing an emotional burden on
23:01
him that was too much for his role and his age and his status
23:06
as a as a child of hers. Then there's the opposite of
23:10
that, the under nurturance place.
23:12
If a mother was absent or if she was harsh or cold, if she was
23:15
involved with her own addiction or very unpredictable, then he
23:20
wouldn't have received enough nurturance to establish a
23:23
healthy give and take understanding of intimacy.
23:26
So subservience is another example of that.
23:29
When it comes to how was she positioned within the home or
23:34
within the church or community that this boy grew up in?
23:38
Was she quiet and relegated to help meet and support roles, or
23:44
would be dominant and really the one who ran the household, the
23:48
one around whom all the activity revolved?
23:53
And these aren't necessarily always bad things that men are
23:56
looking at when it comes to their relationship with their
23:58
mothers, but they're helpful pieces of information as they're
24:03
excavating that landscape of where they learn to be intimate,
24:07
to give and receive healthy emotional connection with women.
24:12
So if what we do is we go to our romantic partner and we maybe
24:17
duplicate that goes on and we find some things that are
24:20
familiar that are problematic. What do you say to the men that
24:23
are like, oh, what if our relationship has to look a lot
24:27
different because of what I formed and levels of
24:30
unhealthiness in the beginning of our relationship?
24:32
What's the level of hope we should be feeling if a lot of it
24:34
was formed in something that was broken to begin with?
24:36
Are. You talking about men saying
24:39
that to their wives? No, I'm thinking if I go, let me
24:44
think of an experience and a meshed a son with his female
24:49
caregiver and maybe there was a lot of nurturing over nurturing.
24:56
And so he went into a romantic attack.
24:58
I found a romantic attachment, but also there was an
25:02
environment there where he expected that.
25:04
And I'm not going to speak for what happened for her, but
25:08
there's that. And it's like, I kind of feel
25:09
like we're going to need an entirely new relationship for
25:12
something healthy. And what if that just feels like
25:15
an overwhelming experience of man?
25:18
I don't know, This is just going to feel like it's going to have
25:20
to be completely new. Yeah, question.
25:23
Well, in my experience, I find that betrayal itself does
25:28
correct a lot of dynamics when healing occurs for both parties.
25:33
So for instance, let's say there was a woman who was attracted to
25:37
her mother and meshed husband. Didn't know it at the time, but
25:40
she really is able to display a caregiving role that was
25:44
appealing to him given his upbringing.
25:46
And it worked for them until it no longer worked their words.
25:50
When betrayal surfaces, I think it does kind of automatically
25:55
redesign some of the dynamics because what becomes so
25:59
essential for the betrayed partner is equity.
26:02
I need to no longer be in A1 down position.
26:05
There can no longer be any sort of power over me that I'm
26:09
unaware of. And so I think her willingness
26:13
to give to the relationship in those ways does automatically
26:16
change. Not for everybody, but that's in
26:18
general what I see. But I also see that as men find
26:22
the thing they've been needing to find, and as they really walk
26:27
in a manner of honesty, integrity, empathy and intimacy
26:31
that is at their potential, then they need less from their
26:38
partners. So they kind of unassigned that
26:41
role of you need to admire me, you need to support me, you need
26:46
to make me feel good about myself or make me feel strong.
26:50
They tend to be able to fulfill those questions themselves.
26:55
And that doesn't necessarily displace her as the wife or the
26:58
partner because like I said, betrayal changes perhaps how
27:02
much she's willing to give Anyway.
27:03
So that's, that tends to be my experience, but there are
27:08
dynamics that as a man becomes safer and more trustworthy, that
27:12
may need to be explored in couples therapy.
27:15
Once once it's at that place where she feels ready to invest
27:19
in the relationship or even consider how how she's coming to
27:24
the table for the relationship. It takes a while though to get
27:27
there. Yeah, it takes a little while.
27:29
Yeah, it's that's a little ways into the journey.
27:31
OK. So maybe we could start to
27:34
around our conversation with this question that actually came
27:37
up that a guy wanted me to ask you, which is he's the only
27:40
place where he recognizing entitlement exists.
27:43
And he wants to find this line between be able to express his
27:48
own needs, but he doesn't know how to that without crossing
27:52
into some entitlement he's recognizing.
27:54
Like I've never been good at expressing my own needs, but I
27:57
also don't want to do it in a way where I'm entitled.
27:59
I feel like I should be authentic with my partner but
28:02
not put it on her so well. I commend him for his thinking
28:07
and he sounds very normal to me. And what I mean by that is that
28:12
the men that I work with all are asking that question.
28:16
And that's part of what we're addressing in hours worth of
28:20
material, workbooks, group meetings, because there isn't a
28:25
simple answer for it. That truly the answer would be
28:28
you have to be able to show up authentically, but your
28:32
authenticity isn't always welcome.
28:33
So how can your authenticity be attuned to the situation, to the
28:37
moment, right? That's the pure method that I
28:40
teach how to do that. So it's really a journey.
28:43
But this is one of the biggest questions most people have.
28:46
OK, I get it, I need to be authentic, but it does not seem
28:50
like she likes my authentic self.
28:52
So what good is this doing? And as they work through it,
28:55
they find more old programming that does need to be examined
29:01
and replaced with something different.
29:04
And that's that's kind of the whole purpose of the program.
29:08
I truly believe that as men do this work, especially if they
29:11
give into it wholeheartedly, they find that thing that
29:15
probably LED them down the addiction path in the 1st place
29:19
and authenticity becomes a new default mode.
29:22
But it does require some practice.
29:24
It does require some really hard work.
29:27
So what I hear you saying, it's not a simple answer, almost
29:29
sounds like tuning a piano or something where you're like I
29:33
know what middle CI, know what the hurts of middle C looks
29:36
like, but I can't, I got to get there and it takes some time.
29:39
Like an example. Yeah, yeah.
29:41
Takes some time, but I really think that can be expedited.
29:45
That's part of why I designed this program, because if they
29:50
know what they need to do and they're sold out to doing it,
29:53
it's it can manifest well for them.
29:57
We're all designed to do this kind of thing.
29:59
This is truly a capacity everyone has.
30:02
Unless somebody has significant cognitive impairment or a
30:05
traumatic brain injury that impairs their brain, they have
30:09
all the tools they already need inside of them.
30:10
And what we're doing is highlighting the areas that
30:14
they've essentially ran away from or didn't maybe even know
30:16
existed within themselves that really need to be pulled forward
30:22
in the driver's seat. That's cool.
30:24
Yeah. And you're right, it doesn't
30:26
have to take a lot of time. I think what gets in the way is
30:28
how we measure it. For measuring it.
30:32
We'll measure it a certain way, then it can feel like it takes a
30:35
long time. OK, Well, hope.
30:38
I hope men that listen to this podcast can find you.
30:40
So if they find you, where would they find you at?
30:43
My website ishoperay.com. OK.
30:46
All right. And then the course or the work
30:50
that you do, what's that called? It's called getting Dire
30:53
straight. So that's on the website.
30:54
There's a tab up at the top of the website where it says dire.
30:59
You can read about it there. And it's one of those things
31:02
that you can join at any time. It's always running.
31:05
So people often want to know when they can start.
31:08
If they're ready to start and they believe they're a good
31:10
candidate, they can start immediately if they want to.
31:13
Awesome. Any other words for us before
31:15
we? Close.
31:16
No, I just am grateful for you, Luke.
31:19
I love the ability to have this open conversation around
31:23
entitlement clarifying this is certainly the next wave of this
31:26
particular industry we're both in.
31:29
It is important to refine these details within one's thinking
31:34
patterns because it's not enough to really save a marriage, to
31:38
really rebuild trust and have something better than you once
31:40
had before. To simply become faithful to the
31:43
marriage, that's what your partner's probably been doing
31:45
all along. And so she's not about to give
31:48
you a high 5 for showing up with faithfulness, right?
31:50
She needs to feel like she's got a man who's who's really not
31:55
just solid, but whole inside. And so I just love the work
31:59
you're doing with the men in that regard and thankful for
32:02
this conversation and appreciate you so much.
32:05
Yeah, me too. And then also just want to know,
32:07
I've seen several men, a lot of men that your work Hope really
32:13
stuff stirs inside of them. It almost it also promotes some
32:18
strong feelings. Some like I don't like what
32:22
Hope's talking about. Like I don't like it.
32:25
And I've watched that happen with men.
32:26
And I'm sure if I would have earlier on the journey met Hope
32:30
and her work, I've been like, oh, this is rubbing me wrong.
32:33
And I think it really was those maladaptive pieces that I really
32:37
wasn't going to be able to tackle intimacy.
32:39
So if you find yourself before, during, after, without work,
32:43
just notice what's coming up inside of you.
32:45
Just notice what it's stirring and why it's stirring it.
32:48
Why does it hold such deep impact for you?
32:50
And don't stop, explore that. Get to know that one thing I
32:55
really love about you hope is you'll take the tough questions
32:58
like you're not. I won't say you're not scared of
33:00
them because I don't know your emotions attached to it, but
33:03
you'll take them. You'll face them straight on.
33:06
So good for you. And I, I don't even have to work
33:09
all that hard because the men in the group, there's just some
33:11
real All Stars in there. These men, some of them have
33:13
been through the program more than once.
33:16
And I think it's a great testimony to the fact that if
33:18
their marriages are going well and they're still continuing the
33:22
work, to me that's the highest compliment about the content
33:25
that they are finding it that relevant even when things are
33:28
going well. They've rebuilt quite a bit, but
33:30
they're still in there. And so they do a great job of
33:33
calling men in, and I often in our groups, will ask the men to
33:38
respond in that way. And it's just a really safe
33:40
environment. I think it's interesting how
33:43
quickly some men tune into things that they might be more
33:46
hesitant to look at because there's other men doing it with
33:49
them. They're not well.
33:51
And so that's really special. I really enjoy it.
33:54
Yeah, it is good stuff. Cool.
33:56
Well, thank you, O. Thanks for having me, Luke.
33:59
And take care, everybody. Thanks for joining us today.
34:05
If this is something that you connected with, I'd love to meet
34:08
with you more and talk about it. So what you can do is go to
34:11
chooserecoveryservices.com or check the show notes.
34:14
And there what we can do is set up a quick conversation meet.
34:17
Thanks so much for listening to Beyond the Facade where we
34:20
unmask the authentic self.