Latest / Beyond Labels Premium / Episode #90: FDA Approves Poop in a Pill (with Dr. Sabine Hazan)

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Episode #90: FDA Approves Poop in a Pill (with Dr. Sabine Hazan) · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: I had a patient with C diff, Alzheimer's, multiple pneumonias, recurrent pneumonias.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I basically gave pneumonia and I gave his wife's microbiome to the patient.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: And six months later, he remembered his daughter's date of birth, right?
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: That was the perfect match for this guy, right?
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: It was compatibility.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: It was his wife of 40 years.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: They were together.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: They probably shared initially the same microbes.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then with, you know, with him getting a bunch of antibiotics over the years, he probably killed his microbiome that he was sharing with her.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it is, it was feasible for me at that point to do that case and say, look, it's your wife, it's your husband, it's an informed consent.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have that as we're entering this world of feces in a capsule, unfortunately.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: All right, welcome to Beyond Labels.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Dr.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Cena McKella, and I'm here with Joel Salatin, our favorite farmer.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: And today we have a special guest, Dr.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Sabine Hazen.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I have asked Dr.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Hazen to join us today because the FDA has just approved the first pill containing human species.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's called VAust, and it's given to patients that have recurring Z.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: diff infections.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: Now, reportedly, this was shown in clinical trials to be as effective as fecal microbiota transplants given rectally.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Hazen is a world-renowned expert on the microbiome, including fecal transplants.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: So we had to have her come on the show with us.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: She's a physician, she specializes in gastroenterology, internal medicine, hepatology, as well as she's a world-renowned speaker and author of the book Let's Talk S H I T.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm bleeping it out for the kids that might be listening.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: As the founder and CEO of Pro Genobiome, which is a genetic sequencing research laboratory, she has led over 35 studies investigating the role of the gut flora in various diseases, including COVID-19.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: She's also the CEO of Ventura Clinical Trials, where she has over 20 years of experience leading clinical trials for cutting-edge research on various medical issues.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: She was the first woman ever accepted into the University of Florida as a clinical gastroenterology fellow.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: She's a pioneer in the medical field.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: She's published articles in numerous prestigious medical journals.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: And she's the series editor on the microbiome for practical gastroenterology, which is a peer-reviewed journal that reaches 18,000 gastroenterologists.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: She's a speaker for the World Congress of Digestive Disease.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: She also speaks for the or is part of the Microbiome Congress, the International Drug Discovery Science and Technology Conference, and the National Institute of Standards and Technology.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: Needless to say, if you have a question about poop, Dr.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Hazen is your girl.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the program.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that's probably true, right?
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: All right, we have a lot of questions that we want to ask you today, including what you're doing now with work with livestock and our food supply.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: But first, can you tell us about this new hoop in a pill that the FDA has just approved?
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: How good is it?
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: What is it for?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have any concerns about it?
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, from the data, you know, the data they approved it, whether, you know, when once a pill goes from clinical trials to the market, and what I call the market is gastroenterologists start using it, you know, too often, you know, it could show a certain amount of response in clinical trials.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then in the clinical data, in the day-to-day practice of gastroenterologists, it may completely change.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: And we may start seeing some problems with it or not.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think, you know, this is too early to tell until it really gets into the hands of uh the physicians doing it, myself included.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I am gonna try it.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: It certainly is, you know, easier, uh cheaper than you know, finding donors and analyzing those tools of donors, you know, if this pill actually does what it's supposed to do for C diff.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been, you know, C diff is my little bug.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've been doing clinical trials for it forever almost.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, when fecal transplant, when when clinical trials didn't work from pharmaceutical products, I basically would do fecal transplant.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I would usually pick the spouse, the child, you know, someone that from the family as my donors, because to me, that was like this the same environment, right?
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: We've shown uh our lab for Genobiome, we've shown that when you analyze the microbiome of families, husbands and wives look very similar, you know, uh same as kids, you know, like my oldest daughter looks very similar in her microbiome to me, and my youngest one looks very similar to my husband.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: So to me, you know, it's just better, in my opinion, to pick from that family.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: But that's of course my hypothesis because I'm the person that I like to know who my donor is.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: I like to know is my donor bipolar, is my donor an alcoholic, is my donor, you know, a drugie.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, we're seeing these vignettes when we do fecal transplant that the personality can change from the donor.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: And certainly, you know, we've seen when you do give fecal transplant that there is of the same donor, maybe that donor was very anxious, and then the recipient becomes very anxious, right?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a question whether we inherit other things from the donor.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: And in a world where we're just tapping the surface of the microbiome, in that, you know, we don't know what microbes cause Parkinson's or if microbes cause Parkinson's to begin with, right?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: Is Parkinson a brain problem or a gut problem?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: So we don't even know, right?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: So imagine if it is a gut problem and a gut microbiome problem, and you're giving the microbiome of a person that is gonna become Parkinson's in the future to a person that has C.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: diff.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Are you not giving those microbes that are gonna just change the direction of that person?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: So to me, familial is just my my thing, you know, a spouse, I'd rather take my husband's, you know, poop, no offense, than a stranger.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: I've been married to him, I take it for free already.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, to me, it was like that's that's the way to do it.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: But unfortunately, it is expensive to test these stool samples.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: So if there is a new and and not everybody has a husband or a kid, so there is a need for you know, pharma to step in in a way.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: What is the um uh what is the protocol for, I mean, I'm assuming I'm I'm assuming to make this pill, they're not taking it from druggies and they're not taking it from you know alcoholics or whatever.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh do you do you know what the is there a protocol?
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: And if there is, do you know what it is?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so there is a protocol.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they give a questionnaire to the donor and they basically, you know, say, do you use drugs?
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: Have you traveled abroad?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: Do you drink alcohol?
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: And and and then they do, you know, stool studies to look at the microbiome of these donors and basically, you know, process the poop in a capsule or in a bag, because the bag is still available for those who want to do fecal transplant, and that's pretty much it.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: For C.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: diff, it's not very hard, right, to fix C.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: diff.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you could give a poop for a pill, you could put it in the rectum, you can go all the way to the cecum.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: And and in general, you know, you achieve success in fixing C.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: diff because C.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: diff is one of those bugs that you've killed the whole microbiome.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: So you're you're leaving C.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: diff to flourish and stimulate, secretes, you know, toxins.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: So therefore, when you do put in um, you know, microbes, any direction, mouth, rectum, cecum, you know, you are gonna show improvement.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: Again, the big problem is yes, one, is the screening of the donor, you know, adequate?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: Did you take a proper history?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: Did you find out is the is the patient, was the patient on antibiotics, right?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: Is the patient obese?
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe we want to know, you know, because then, you know, if I'm skinny and I'm eating and I'm having C.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: diff, um, do I want to fix my problem that way and then gain weight?
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe, because we've certainly seen the mouse studies where when you transplant fat mouse to skinny mouse, the skinny mouse becomes fat.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, this is the beginning, right?
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, maybe uh I wonder if they're gonna ask if you drink out of a cow trough.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's so listen, you know, there's there's a lot to the microbiome, there's a lot to, you know, the the testing to the proper donor.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's not very easy.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've been very fortunate in my life doing fecal transplant and having had very good success.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: But I am meticulous about my my donor, you know, I ask the questions and I and I'm very meticulous about telling my recipient about you know who my donor is, so that you know, we can make an informed consent, right?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: So in a patient that has Clostridium difficile, you know, is dying, has Alzheimer's, and this was one of my cases, right?
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: I had a patient with C.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: diff, Alzheimer's, um, multiple pneumonias, recurrent pneumonias, and I basically gave pneumonia and I gave his uh wife's microbiome to the patient.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: And six months later, he remembered his daughter's date of birth, right?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: That was the perfect match for this guy, right?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: It was compatibility, it was his wife of 40 years.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: They were together, they probably shared initially the same microbes.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then with, you know, with him getting a bunch of antibiotics over the years, he probably killed his microbiome that he was sharing with her.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it is, it was feasible for me at that point to do that case and say, look, it's your wife, it's your husband, it's an informed consent.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have that as we're entering this world of feces in a capsule, unfortunately.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: So the physician has to be a little bit more, you know, more uh ethical, righteous to tell the patient, look, this is the these, we don't know about the donor.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: That this could help you.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have a choice, or we have a choice, etc.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think still a lot of physicians, you know, the problem is our hands are tied right now, right?
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because this pill came out on the market, and we cannot even, I'll tell you, I've been, I'm blocked because if I want to do, if a family member wants their kid or their wife as a donor, I can't even find a lab to do the stool testing.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: We called Labcorn, we called Quest because we there's a bunch of tests that we do to analyze the micro, to analyze the stools to make sure they're clean, right?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Clean-ish, right?
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: And uh what we noticed is when we called Labcor and Quest, we said, well, we need to do these stool tests on my donor.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: And LabCorn said Labcor and Quest said to us, Oh, I'm sorry, we don't do these tests anymore because there's a pill that just came out.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a little bit, you know, I don't like that attitude because essentially my patient may not want the pill.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Why is one stopping the other?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: If my patient wants, I don't know, their granddaughter's poop, it's their it's their prerogative.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: I should be allowed to test it.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: And here's the problem the problem is if we don't let, if we don't open this field now that there's a pharmaceutical product, people are gonna do it at home unsafely.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: And to me, that's that's worse because they know they figured out, hey, this could help others, other things, others, and therefore let's just do it.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then they're gonna hurt themselves because they're not properly doing it the right way in testing the microbiome, etc.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, just to make sure that we're that we're understanding you, um, Dr.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: Hazen, uh uh clarify that your hand that these labs are not doing it not because the government says they can't, but because the market is shrinking.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_02: The market is shrinking so fast, and who knows what their under their insurance underwriters are saying, um, that that it it it it's not right now, at least so far, it's not a regulatory issue.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: It is a choice issue on the part of the labs because of this sudden change in the landscape.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think a lot of these labs are owned by venture capitalists, if you ask me.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think they control the labs and they're trying to direct the business towards these pharmaceutical products.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: I I think the patient should still have a choice.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: The patient should still, you know, if a patient wants to be tested, you know, I'm a Malibu physician.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: My patients, I can assure you, want to know.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: And and again, I'm in a different category, but I'm sure, but there's a lot of doctors like me out there.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you think about the gastroenterologist in Beverly Hills, the gastroenterologist in Manhattan, right?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Tribeca.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: Those have a different clientele of patients.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Those patients are very educated.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: They come with a whole bunch of lists of requirements.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, who's my donor?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: Is my donor an alcoholic?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Is my donor bipolar?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Is my donor depressed?
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Is my donor anxious?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then here, I read this data on this, and I read this data.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: So my population wants to know their donors and they want to pay for these stool testing.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: The fact that we don't even have availability of these tests is crazy to me.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: That we have to shop around, you know, to different labs to say, hey, can you do this stool testing for my patient?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because I want to use the family member as a stool donor.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's it's let's stop, you know, the doctors from doing it the old-fashioned way and let's direct them towards the pill.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's not okay, in my opinion.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: Both should be able to function, right?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: Think about if when the internet came on and emails came on, and all of a sudden they would say, I'm sorry, stop using the post office.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: Scrap the post office.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the little old woman that's living in middle Kansas doesn't know how to use the internet or computer.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Does that mean she's not supposed to have any more communication with the world?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's not, it's not right.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and you're you're at that that's a great analogy because you're not far off of what's happening.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, uh Teresa and I don't have uh an eye uh a smartphone because we can't get cell service in our house.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: We're down in a hole in on a farm and you know with with uh 18-inch 18-inch thick chestnut log walls uh that block all you know emfs, which is great, but it also means we don't get any signal in here.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so then when you when you have these, well, just just check your app, just use your app.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: You're you know, you're supposed to pay this with an app, you're supposed to find this out with an app.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we don't have any apps.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so uh you you don't have to be, I mean, uh I'm I I'm old, I'm not a little old woman, but um, but you don't have to be that old or a little old woman to to to be to be squeezed out uh of the system of society.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, right.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's a great analogy.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh same situations there.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: Cena, I know you're dying to to ask some questions and move this forward.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: So um so so you jump in here.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, gladly.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: This is this is like Christmas morning for me talking with Dr.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: Hazen.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: So tell us, if you will, um using not the pill, but using fecal transplant, which you are an expert at, what types of diseases and conditions have you seen reverse?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think it's too early to even say reversal, right?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: We've all seen something, right?
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: We've all seen, you know, I just did a case of autism, one kid, uh, where basically the kid was nonverbal and we used his sister's microbiome.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, the kid, after a month of implantation, started saying a couple words.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: More importantly, he was not as aggressive, and now he's not as aggressive.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, he has his men episodes, his mom tells me, but he's on the whole much changed boy from what he started.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: The parents are able to go on a trip together and leave him at home with the nanny, something they couldn't do for 19 years.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a case that's really it was familial fecal transplant.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: It was the the daughter, the sister, but guess what?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: For every you know, microbiome that's perfect in a neurotypical kid that I can think of transplanting to another non-neurotypical, there are kids that share the same microbes that I would not think of transplanting.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: So when you think of, so it's really forensic medicine, right?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Looking at the microbiome, seeing, is this gonna be matching?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Is this gonna do something to this kid, right?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: I went on a gut feeling with that case.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I really felt that his sister was neurotypical, very intelligent young girl.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Well, you know, maybe her microbiome is superior enough to change this kid's path, right?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, I was right when we did look at the microbiome, we did notice that she was, she had more diversity.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: The kid had no diversity, had an overgrowth of a certain bacteria called Lactobacillus animalis, which I didn't even know was even potentially linked to autism, right?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: So this is the first case of a bacteria, Lactobacillus animalis, that we have no idea what it's doing, let alone is it doing something to autism.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: But we are seeing something.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's still too early to kind of see.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: We are, you know, the kid is now at the level, it's been a year and a half.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he went to prom with a girl uh in the month of uh, you know, two weeks or three weeks ago.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, so it's nice to see that he's progressing nicely and not regressing.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: But we are following the stools, we are following his progression.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: This is what we do when we do research well, right?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think when we say, well, you know, autism is improved with fecal transplants, a mistake because a lot of parents have will will listen to this and jump on this bed on this wagon and say, oh my God, I gotta find stools.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: And and then they'll they'll get bamboozled into like, you know, going to different areas of people that are paying them for that.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: And the research is not done properly.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so all the that they're doing is getting stools, but you don't even know if it's engrafted or if it's you know, continue, if there's an improvement in the neurological, because in autism, it's so faint, the improvement.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: So autism is really my work right now.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: We're also looking at, so my one case was Alzheimer's, that I was the beginning case to see maybe Alzheimer's is a gut problem.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: And remember, you know, it could be that these diseases are a gut problem, but it could also be that there's a disconnection between the gut and the brain.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it could also mean that there's a disconnection in the brain itself.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we put ourselves in a hole when we say, oh, fecal transplant is going to be helping all these diseases, because not everything is microbiome.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Some things are genetic, some things are, you know, neurological, something is our iatrogenic, something that someone does, right?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: So we have to like always think about all the possibilities and not just say, okay, well, this is helpful.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: But as far as, you know, we've seen a couple of cases with psoriasis that have improved.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we've seen two cases of alope share ariata from Dr.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: Colleen Kelly at Brown University that grew hair.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't mean that those studies were reproduced, but they couldn't be reproduced.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, the other patients they did fecal transplant on, you know, didn't grow hair.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: So did Dr.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: Colleen Kelly, you know, stumble on a perfect microbiome that grows hair in those trillions of microbes, and therefore she got success in those two patients, but the other doctors didn't.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: We have to understand better.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: We have to understand the microbiome.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many microbes, and they all do something.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: And if one is out of whack, it causes the disease.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it's all about the balance.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now, have you and definitely your examples, if nothing else, your examples um basically scream the importance of the microbiome.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And how important it is to really nurture and take care of your microbiome.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: And when I'm teaching my kids how to eat healthy, that's what I say to them like with each bite of food, are you building a robust, diverse microbiome or are you killing off your microbiome?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like, so that's how important it is, I think, with everything you're eating.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now, have you looked, have you done any studies yourself where you've looked at like changes in the microbiome using a like a dietary intervention, like with true like organic, truly regenerative whole foods that are like you've you've removed the individuals' food triggers or sensitivities and allergies, you're giving them sufficient levels of like healthy fat, they're eating pre and probiotics through food sources.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Have you tested that and seen did that have any effect on on the microbiome?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: So, in some people, if you intervene early and you change their diet and your their lifestyle, and you make sure that they're perfectly, you know, organic and you know, diversified farming, and that the farm, you trust the farming, you know, these people will improve over time because the microbiome is something if you've destroyed it, it took 10 years to destroy, it doesn't get destroyed overnight.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's a progress, it's it's a progression, right?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, in other words, you keep eating the same junk food, eventually you're gonna have a hamburger that has some E.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: coli in there.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then you go back to the same restaurant that's not doing very well at you know, cleansing and doesn't buy the meat from a proper place that is, you know, meticulous.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then essentially you're gonna keep getting that E.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: coli.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: And over time, that E.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: coli is gonna build up and then it's gonna start getting the problems.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think you can change that because you have to kind of remove that E.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: coli to begin with.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you can restart a new diet of regenerative farming, but I think you really have to figure out what microbe is overgrown in that disease to start thinking we're gonna accomplish, you know, changes.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: I am working, you know.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Remember, my population is again, you know, the Malibu physicians, the Malibu patients, and you know, they basically, or the people that come to me from all over the country that have seen like 10, 20 doctors.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so they've tried, you know, different things, they've tried the foods, they've tried all that.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I think what happens is at some point you're gonna need to kind of clean up the bad stuff and then we get a new garden, right?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think Joel will be the first one to say when you have a garden full of weeds, you know, you can plant as many strawberries and blueberries, but they're not gonna grow.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: You got to get rid of the weeds first.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what fecal transplant is, right?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, when it's done well and when you're trying to improve, you've got to remove the weeds.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to find what are the weeds and remove them.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, what are the bugs that are the bad bugs?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: Remove them and then replant.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: But you're not gonna replant on top of the weeds, it's not gonna work, in my opinion.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and now you're researching into our food supply, right?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: What they're doing with the line.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a big, so I'm a big prevention girl, right?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: So once you have the problem, it's very, and I I tell this to everybody, once you've broken the glass, it's very difficult to put it back together.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: So you're, you know, you can try to patch it, but ultimately you're gonna throw the glass and bring back a new glass, right?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: Once you have a soil that's completely damaged, it's very difficult to grow it back, right?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: And Joel, you're you're that's your expertise, right?
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: But you have to kind of go really deep, find those microbes super deep, turn the earth, and wait probably a couple of years till that soil and that that microbiome is balanced again before you start planting.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: So the key is really it's not stop the fixing, stop the killing, prevent, right?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: So to me, I want to try to live as long as possible.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm very meticulous on what I'm eating, right?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very, and of course, I'm gonna do junk food once in a while, and you know, I'll eat and you know, garbage once in a while.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: We all get caught in that.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: But if you develop a resilient microbiome, you know, if you're eating that junk food or that fast food once in a while, your bowels, your your microbiome is gonna be resilient enough to say, uh, that wasn't good, flush it out, right?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then that's that episode of diarrhea you get once in a while, or that vomiting, right?
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because your body is used to a certain balance.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: And once you add something that's out of whack, it's gonna reject it.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: So that's how beautiful we've been created that our bodies, our microbiome knows what is a good bug and a bad bug and rejects it with vomiting or diarrhea.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: So prevention is number one.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, prevention means knowing who is your farmer, knowing where do you get your food.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: Is, you know, and I'll I gave this example on a couple of interviews before.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: I killed my bifidobacteria.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: So remember, we were the lab that identified the whole genome sequence of COVID.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna call it a genetic sequence because remember, it started at the summit.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: People were saying COVID doesn't exist, so we're gonna call it a genetic sequence for all intent and purposes, so we create the piece.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: So the genetic sequence, we found a genetic sequence in the stools.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: That genetic sequence, when we looked at the microbiome, we noticed that people with severe COVID had zero bifidobacteria.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: And the people that were exposed to people with COVID, like farmer Matt Clofer, who I did a YouTube video with, by the way, talking about all these things, said to me, I kissed my wife, she had COVID, I took her saliva, I put it on my face, I wanted to catch COVID and I never came to me.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: And he goes, Am I that useless that COVID doesn't come to me?
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Well, you're a farmer, you're playing with poop, you're exposed to everyone.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you have a robust microbiome.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Let me look at your microbiome.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, I was right.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he had a lot of biphenobacteria, he had a lot of diversity, amazing diversity, actually.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: So basically, that was the beginning for me, right?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: Seeing, well, people that are doing it right, the farmers that are drinking the milk and you know, doing it right with the regenerative farms.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: They're not putting pesticides on their vegetables, they're doing great.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe I am right about this whole gut health, right?
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it is the problem.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: The problem is we are ingesting so much garbage that it kills our bifidobacteria in a way.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: So bifidobacteria was really the beginning.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: When I killed my own bifidobacteria, I started drinking kefir from you know the grocery store and it said bifidobacteria on the back of it.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: I tested my stools, my bifidobacteria is not going up.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: I test the kefir, there's no bifidobacteria in there.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: So here's a product that says kefir with bifidobacteria, and there's no bifidobacteria in there.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: So this is the problem.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: The problem is if we don't take, you know, if we don't safeguard our foods, and all of us are responsible, right?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: From the farmer to make sure that the cow is not sick and giving the milk of a sick cow to the 10-year-old down the street, right?
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: We all have a responsibility.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's not all about business, right?
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I think, you know, so what am I starting to do?
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm starting to safeguard this industry so that I know, you know, if I'm gonna be, and that's why, you know, I support you guys too, because you do it right.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Joel does it right, you know.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mentioned that he's one of my farms that I recommend my patients to.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: I have three farms right now that I recommend because I've seen my patients improve with that kind of meat, with that kind of food, with that kind of diet.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we have to be, you know, sheriffs ourselves.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm the sheriff.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: Bless you and especially, especially bless you for saying it's okay to have a um to have a uh a niece's uh birthday cake once in a while.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: See Cena and I go back and forth on this.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Cena's my she's she's a pit bull, um, but but I'm quick to recognize, you know, I've never been sick like Cena.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, if I had been as sick as Sina, I'd probably be a pit bull too.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: But since I haven't been sick, um I take a little more, a little more uh gracious, you know, uh uh cavalier attitude toward it.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: And um and and you know, uh it it it it everybody has to has to come to their own uh tolerance level.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but but but but the but the problem is, um Dr.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: Hazen, the the problem is um in in our our experiences, certainly Cena and I, and I'm sure yours, in our experiences, most people aren't even approaching 80 80-20 or 90-10.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you know, they're they're in the like the zero, you know, not even thinking about the different um the different nutrient qualities or the or the microbes, the microbes within the food uh that they're getting.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: And and now now you know we're heading into fake meat, cultured meat, lab material, and and it it it it it's not nearly as uh as diverse microbially uh and enzymatically as as real stuff.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think uh I mean you're right.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: I I think we've put society, you know, we assume society is all sick, right?
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: We assume society is all out of balance, but there's a lot of people that are resilient and healthy.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: We need to learn from what is in their microbiome that makes them resilient.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: For example, you or you know, or me, or you know, and not just say, okay, well, everybody, you know, meant like think about a mental illness right now.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: Mental illness is, you know, it seems like everybody has a mental illness issue, but not everybody has a mental illness issue.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: Some people are happy, they're laughing, they're joyful, you know.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I just think this idea of putting humanity in a box and saying everybody's the same, wrong.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: We all have different fingerprints.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: How can we all be the same?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: And if we all have different fingerprints, how can we all eat similar foods, right?
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if a person is vegan and they're doing great being vegan, well then stick to being vegan.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: But if a person is a carnivore and they do great being a carnivore, then stick to being a carnivore, right?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: The idea, and if you're I have a senator who eats donuts, these little donuts, every day.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's his breakfast.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: And he's done great with COVID, like barely got sick, right?
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: And and he and so I look at that senator and he goes, Does that mean I have to stop my donuts?
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: I go, honestly, no.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, your blood sugar is fine, you're not hypertensive, you don't have cholesterol, you look great.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't know that I would change.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: He's been eating it for like 20 years, right?
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: So no one, no wonder you have so many great followers.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: Stina, we've now discovered the secret to this.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, the the the politics, the politics of being uh diplomatic with with people that are in angst, you know.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think we have to, we're all different.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: We create this division, and then what happens is you know, the division sells marketing and fear, and we damage our microbiome more with the fear and the anxiety.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: So if that donut is giving you anxiety that you're gonna get sugar elevation or diabetes, then don't eat it, right?
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think we as humanity tend to think, you know, we're all the same, but again, we're not, and we have to respect the individual choices because at the end of the day, it's quality of life, right?
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: If you like what you're doing, and you're I've seen so many patients that are like a hundred years old, and we're doing things that are just crazy, that I would think, oh my god, that's so horrible.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: What a horrible diet.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: But who am I to criticize?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: They're living to 100, right?
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe there's something in that microbiome of that 100-year-old that we need to evaluate instead of saying, okay, well, you need to be on this diet and this diet, and and it's a one diet for all.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, these diets are there to guide you, they're not there to be like, this is the only way, right?
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: And if your diet is not working, then change diets by all means.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Cena discovered healing herself, and and so she's, you know, she's a bull on that because of the fact that this is helping her.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: But that diet may not be helping someone else.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: That diet may be giving gas and bloating to someone else.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, and I love this because you and I share this same perception of, you know, on the bigger picture, life in general, but of um even disease and food.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because I'm so like-minded.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like there is no one size fits all.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Joel and I talked about this in our book we wrote together.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, for me, it's tapping into your intuition.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I always say that you are the best nutritionist that money could ever buy.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you can listen to your body, it's it will tell you what it needs to eat and what it doesn't want to eat.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that's actually how I eat now.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like I did follow a pattern, uh, you know, as I was so sick, I wasn't very in tune with my intuition at that time.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: I was in that kind of anxiety-driven brain fog space, which, as you know, um can be very damaging.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: It obviously indicated dysbiosis and my microbiome.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: But so I did follow um a standard dietary protocol.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: I call it standard, it's the typical one we know to reverse disease, but um, it really came down to learning how to tap into my own intuition.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: And you can't read that anywhere, right?
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: You you can't learn that from any quote-unquote expert.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that comes from yourself.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, relating this to the microbiome, I love what you said in our first summit, the Two Days of Truth summit.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: You got up there and you talked about, um, you know, I'm paraphrasing, of course, you said it very eloquently about how people will get these tests done, like, you know, send in their stool samples, get all these tests done.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: They're trying to achieve like a certain um like print uh fingerprint on a micro on of a stool sample of what their microbiome should look like.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like, what is the standard, right?
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's actually no one standard.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: We're all so unique.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: We can't even actually identify or test your entire microbiome, right?
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like stop comparing yourself, your microbiome, to all of these other people's microbiomes and thinking that, oh, if the test result comes back and says I'm low in this or too high in that, and you start supplementing with something that may or may not actually contain those microbes, that's probably not going to be a good answer for you, uh, correct?
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's a reductionist way of thinking.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: Is that correct, Dr.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: Sabine?
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's absolutely correct.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: And and and really, you cannot compare yourself to someone that's, you know, you think about a person that's in Mexico City and you think of a person that's in Japan.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: Completely different foods, completely different diets, completely different microbiome.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: And here's the other thing about the microbiome that nobody's really thinking about.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: Is it just the microbiome or is it the microbiome on the colonic receptors?
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe there's a receptors of the colon.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe your colon is supposed to look like a bunch of, you know, you know, receptors that you inherit genetically from your family, and those foods or microbes are supposed to go on these receptors.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're just tapping the beginning, and there's so much.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: Look, if we could figure out why we all have different fingerprints, you know, we've not figured that out yet.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, how come every single human on the planet has a different fingerprint?
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: So that means every single human on the planet has a different fingerprint of the microbiome.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: So is it fair to compare the one microbe to another?
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: No, you can't.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: You can see similarities, but you know, I see, and I say this because yes, there are a lot of stool tests out there that are basically selling, I don't know what they're selling.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're selling research.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're doing this big project that's looking at the microbiome on a universal level.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what is the Japanese in Japan looking uh like in their microbiome versus the Japanese in America?
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: What is, you know, autism on the whole, you know, picture once you've kind of like looked at the families, you know, it's really meticulous forensic medicine to try to identify certain microbes that are similar.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: But good luck.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, when you get into this field, and this is my challenge, is you start realizing that what one microbe is good for one person is actually bad for another.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: Some kids, and I'll go back to autism, right?
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: Autism, I could have easily looked at 300 samples and said, oh, these are the bugs that are, you know, in autism, right?
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: But then when you start looking at the bugs and you write pravatella check, um, you know, X, I don't know, acromancia check, for example, right?
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: You start noticing, wait, some people have acromancia, but they don't, but they're fine, they don't have autism.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: Some people have prevatella and they don't have autism, right?
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it's very complex.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's we're talking about trillions.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, here's 23 and me that did this whole, you know, bioinformatics pipeline of all these people, and they basically were looking at genetics, and they say, well, you have 20% this culture and this culture.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: But in the microbiome, you've got trillions of bacteria, it's not 23 chromosomes, right?
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you it's looking for a needle in a haystack?
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's the best way to say it.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: So we have to be humble and say we're at the beginning, and we can't just like say everybody should be, but there are certain things we have noticed, right?
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: If you look at data of certain drugs affect the microbiome, right?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: Certain and alcohol in high quantity causes diseases, which then you know possibly causes damages to the microbiome.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: So there are certain things we know, right?
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: So if I'm eating a hamburger from a cow that has mycobacteria paratuberculosis, which is Yani's disease in your world, Joel, you know, possibly that bacteria could be transferred to the kid, and then that kid could potentially have Crohn's disease because the two diseases are very similar in the cows, Yoni's disease and uh Crohn's disease.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they look very similar colonic mucosa-wise.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: So there are certain things you can kind of extrapolate and say, and and again, it's common sense, you know, a cow that's cacetic, having diarrhea, I'm not gonna feed that cow to the person, right?
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_02: So well, yeah, yonies, yones in cows and Crohn's in humans makes the makes the beings look similar.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, Crohn's gets like you know, skeletally thin and can't hold anything in.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: Cow with yonis gets all hunched up like a skeleton and and can't hold anything in.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, the the way the two the way the two uh beings look is very, very similar.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Cena, we're you know, this has been just fascinating as as as we knew it would be.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_02: And um and and what amazing information.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we're about out of time, so we need to we need to close down.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: Cena, you might have a couple of final closing thoughts or questions for for Dr.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: Hazen.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's it's just been uh fascinating.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I I my my takeaway right now for our for our listeners uh is yes, the pill is here, but the pill is not gonna be a panacea.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: And uh and and and uh uh Dr.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_02: Hazen's work is so um is so appreciative of the complexity of things.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: And and when you said humility, uh you know, my my heart sank because that's how we need to approach the the mysteries and the magic of life is from a is from a humble standpoint, not from a venture capitalist, I'm gonna get mine, let's get it quicker before anybody else and make as much as we can on it.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: That that that when we're talking about the things that are as subtle and and and uh um almost esoteric as this, um we'd better, we'd better come at it from a different angle.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_02: Cena, you wanna you wanna put in the last ideas here?
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, one last question for you, because I'm sure if I didn't ask this, the listeners would, you know, be like I think they're on the edge of their seat waiting.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: So we've talked about how everyone's different, microbiomes are different, and how it may be a waste of money to to go to the store and buy uh probiotics.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: And what are you really even looking at when you have a stool test done?
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: So if somebody listening to this wants to start right now building a robust, diverse microbiome, what are three tips you would give them?
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh vitamins, a good nutrition, a good nutraceutical, a good vitamin.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: Make sure you know which factor where it's made, uh, and that it it's pure and that the capsule is pure and uh preferably and vegetable.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, that's vitamin D.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very big on vitamin D, vitamin C, zinc, you know, those are my big things uh because I feel that that's you know, the body needs nutrients, microbes need nutrients.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the first thing.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: The second thing is um fermented foods, sauerkraut, you know, start cooking at home if you're um, you know, decrease your stress, meditation, expose yourself to the outdoors, go gardening, go planting, you know, avoid uh soil that has a lot of pesticides because that's not good for you.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we've certainly seen problems with pesticides and all these lawsuits that are out there.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's really the, you know, it's really back to earth, back to the beginning, back to uh, you know, a safer life, a holistic approach to life, mostly decreasing stress.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we've we're seeing that when you are getting into an anxiety mode or a stress, you know, disease starts with a big stressor, right?
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, parents get divorced, the kids get Crohn's disease, you know, husband loses the job, you know, then you know, pretty soon develops autoimmune processes.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I think really decreasing the stress and and removing things that are, you know, if you think about something that's gonna make you uptight, like a closet that's not clean.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, maybe don't get so uptight about it, you know.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: Get rid of that, don't fight with the spouse or the kids.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's not, it's only killing your microbiome, not theirs.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I think a calm life, you know, we tend to be so riled up in humanity with the politics and the media.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: Turn it off.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: Turn it off.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: Go back to basics and go read a nice book in a library, go flip through a paper book instead of an iPhone where you're basically zooming in and the, you know, you're exposed to so much noise because the phone is ringing with all sorts of text messaging, so you're not really reading and focusing.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: So that's so much of life, right?
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you know, we tend to always want what the neighbor has and the grass we believe is greener on the other side, but it's not necessarily greener.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's probably that they either sprayed it and makes you look like it's it's green, um, or it's just costing them a whole fortune to keep it green.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, whatever your grass is, just do the best you can to make the best out of your life.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's the best advice that I can give people as a doctor.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think that resonates deeply with both Joel and myself.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: And um, thank you so much for coming on.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: And where, if people want to learn more from you or just follow your work, where can they find you?
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, progenobiome.com so they can register.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: We publish all our publications are there.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then from there, uh, people can ask me questions so they can register and then ask me questions.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a little bit behind on all those questions, but I will answer them and I usually answer them myself.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's what I would say is uh progenibiome.com.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, and why did I call it progenobiome?
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's from your genes to your microbiome.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: So both of them are interconnected.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think the last message I want to give to people is empower yourself with knowledge.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: Trust the people that have done well during the pandemic and that are telling you what they've done to stay well.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, empower yourself with knowledge, ask questions.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_01: Science and medicine is about asking questions and make an informed consent on anything your doctor is telling you.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_01: Ask the questions, ask your doctors, challenge the narrative.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's the most important.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's our freedom of choice, that's our freedom.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: We need to remember that.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_01: We are human beings that are all different, and we must remain free to make a decision on what we put in our body, what we eat.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's our choice, our decisions.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's my last thing.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I love it.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's just music to my ears and my heart.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for coming on the show.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna have to have you back out to the farm to dazzle us with more of your knowledge and your humility.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: We we love it and we appreciate you.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: And um, come back when you get some more results from the research you're doing.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: We'd love for you to come back and um update all of us.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: And to all our listeners and viewers, thank you for joining us on another week of Beyond Labels.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: We will see you next week.