Latest / The Book Deal / Jacqueline Harvey: inside the world of one of Australia's most popular kidlit authors, and the rocky road it took to get there

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Jacqueline Harvey: inside the world of one of Australia's most popular kidlit authors, and the rocky road it took to get there · The Book Deal

• 0:00
  This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.
• 0:08
  We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal.
• 0:22
  So no matter what stage of writing your at.
• 0:27
  We've got you covered.
• 0:29
  I'm Tina Strachan.
• 0:30
  I'm Madeleine Cleary.
• 0:32
  And I'm Natasha Rai.
• 0:34
  And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a time.
• 0:42
  The Book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
• 0:56
  Tina Strachan: Hi everyone, it's Tina Strachan here, and welcome to the Book Deal podcast and another incredible author interview to share with you all.
• 1:03
  Tina Strachan: I'm very excited to bring you this week's guest, the Kid Lit legend, Jacqueline Harvey.
• 1:08
  Tina Strachan: Jacqueline is a huge name inlet with her bestselling titles, including the Alice, Miranda, Clementine, rose, Kenzie, and Max and Willer and Wolf Series.
• 1:17
  Tina Strachan: But as Jacqueline shares, it took her almost 10 years to become an overnight success, and in this interview she shares her journey to full-time author, which includes rejections, bad cover designs, and refusing to give up on her characters.
• 1:32
  Tina Strachan: Jacqueline has now published almost 70 books, narrated 40 audio books, and two of her books are now animated feature films.
• 1:40
  Tina Strachan: Jacqueline has seen it all in her 20 year publishing history, and she generously shares it all with us.
• 1:51
  Tina Strachan: I am so excited to be here today with Kid Lit Royalty, Jacqueline Harvey, welcome to the Book Deal Podcast.
• 1:57
  Jacqueline Harvey: Uh, thank you so much, Tina.
• 1:59
  Jacqueline Harvey: It's lovely to be here.
• 2:00
  Tina Strachan: Oh, you are an absolute legend in the Kid Lit World.
• 2:04
  Tina Strachan: You have sold millions of copies of your books.
• 2:06
  Tina Strachan: They've been made into, TV shows and, and movies, and I know that you're gonna have a ton of advice for our listeners.
• 2:14
  Jacqueline Harvey: I hope so.
• 2:15
  Jacqueline Harvey: I, I, um, I like to share, so
• 2:17
  Tina Strachan: Yes, I know, and that's why we know you'd be perfect for the podcast.
• 2:21
  Tina Strachan: But first, congratulations on your new book that's coming out.
• 2:25
  Tina Strachan: So when this goes to Air, it'll be, in, in the next few weeks anyway.
• 2:28
  Tina Strachan: Girl, girl and the Ghosts.
• 2:30
  Tina Strachan: So, uh, the
• 2:31
  Jacqueline Harvey: third
• 2:32
  Tina Strachan: book series.
• 2:32
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 2:33
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yeah, the third book in the series.
• 2:34
  Jacqueline Harvey: So it's The Girl in the Ghost, uh, grand opening.
• 2:37
  Jacqueline Harvey: So we're up to, up to number three.
• 2:39
  Jacqueline Harvey: I can't believe we're up to number three already in that series as it only launched in May last year.
• 2:43
  Jacqueline Harvey: So yeah, it's, uh, it's been a very busy, busy year.
• 2:47
  Tina Strachan: That is a quick turnaround.
• 2:48
  Tina Strachan: Can you tell us a little bit about Girl On the Ghost, where your idea came for this new
• 2:51
  Jacqueline Harvey: series?
• 2:52
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yeah, absolutely.
• 2:53
  Jacqueline Harvey: So, um, I was, I guess looking for something new in the middle grade space, um, because obviously, you know, Alice, Miranda and Kenzie and Max, um, you know, I've written a lot of books in those series and, um.
• 3:08
  Jacqueline Harvey: Uh, I was in Singapore, uh, in October, 2000 and, what was that?
• 3:15
  Jacqueline Harvey: 23.
• 3:16
  Jacqueline Harvey: And, uh, I was in Singapore.
• 3:18
  Jacqueline Harvey: I was doing some work in Singapore and uh, I was doing a book signing at Koya, the big bookshop on Orchard Road.
• 3:24
  Jacqueline Harvey: And while I was in there, uh, a friend of mine, Singaporean friend of mine, said to me at the end of the signing, he said, there's a prince in the bookshelf.
• 3:31
  Jacqueline Harvey: I said, don't be ridiculous, David.
• 3:33
  Jacqueline Harvey: There's not a prince in the bookshelf.
• 3:34
  Jacqueline Harvey: And he said, have a look for the bodyguards.
• 3:37
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so I looked around the room and I went, oh my god, like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 bodyguards.
• 3:42
  Jacqueline Harvey: And, uh, I, I was looking at them and I was looking at who they were watching, and they were watching this very handsome young man standing on his own by a bookcase.
• 3:49
  Jacqueline Harvey: And David said, yeah, he's, he is a prince.
• 3:51
  Jacqueline Harvey: He is the, he's one of the princes of, of, um, uh, of Bruno.
• 3:58
  Jacqueline Harvey: Anyway, so.
• 3:59
  Jacqueline Harvey: I was sort of just watching this whole shenanigans and he looked, he looked a bit sad and lonely, I have to say.
• 4:05
  Jacqueline Harvey: I thought, you know, you poor guy.
• 4:06
  Jacqueline Harvey: You have to go into a bookshop and all you have is bodyguards watching you and nobody comes near you.
• 4:10
  Jacqueline Harvey: And, uh, his, his fiance was there as well.
• 4:13
  Jacqueline Harvey: She was this gorgeous girl with long, dark hair and she was over on the other side of the shop anyway, then the girls in the shop got this hair-brained idea and they said to me.
• 4:21
  Jacqueline Harvey: Miss Jacqueline, miss Jacqueline, you should give the Prince a book.
• 4:24
  Jacqueline Harvey: I said, I'd rather die than give the pri a principle bookshop in a bookshop.
• 4:27
  Jacqueline Harvey: And they said, no, no, it could be the best moment of your life.
• 4:30
  Jacqueline Harvey: I said, it could be the last moment of my life if those bodyguards don't like me.
• 4:33
  Jacqueline Harvey: So anyway, then my friend David, who has met everybody famous in the world, he gets in on the act and he says, go on, go on.
• 4:39
  Jacqueline Harvey: You should do it.
• 4:40
  Jacqueline Harvey: And then my husband, he weighs in and our friends who are there, and I thought, you know what?
• 4:45
  Jacqueline Harvey: He's just a person.
• 4:46
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I thought.
• 4:48
  Jacqueline Harvey: What do I have to lose?
• 4:49
  Jacqueline Harvey: You know, I could be horribly embarrassed, but what do I have to lose?
• 4:52
  Jacqueline Harvey: So I walked over with an a Willa and Wolf book in hand.
• 4:55
  Jacqueline Harvey: That's what I was there promoting.
• 4:57
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I said, excuse me, your Royal Highness.
• 4:59
  Jacqueline Harvey: At which time I was surrounded by six bodyguards, um, demanding to know what did I want with the prince.
• 5:06
  Jacqueline Harvey: So I said, you know, children's author from Australia.
• 5:08
  Jacqueline Harvey: I just thought it'd be nice to say hello.
• 5:10
  Jacqueline Harvey: Give him a book.
• 5:11
  Jacqueline Harvey: Anyway, the prince waved them away.
• 5:13
  Jacqueline Harvey: And he asked me who I was and what I was doing there.
• 5:15
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I said, I believe you're getting married soon and perhaps you and your wife will be blessed with children.
• 5:19
  Jacqueline Harvey: I'd like to give you a book.
• 5:20
  Jacqueline Harvey: And he said, would you sign it for me please?
• 5:22
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so I signed this book and I'm shaking like anything.
• 5:26
  Jacqueline Harvey: And then I thought, oh, he won't touch me'cause I'm the great unwashed and he's royal.
• 5:29
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I went to hand it to him and I had the finger and I had the pen stuck in my finger like this.
• 5:35
  Jacqueline Harvey: And you know, and I'm, I'm holding it in between my fingers.
• 5:38
  Jacqueline Harvey: And he shook my hand with the pen in my fingers and I just wanted to die.
• 5:43
  Jacqueline Harvey: I was so embarrassed.
• 5:44
  Jacqueline Harvey: Anyway, then David asked him could he take a photo?
• 5:46
  Jacqueline Harvey: And the Prince said, yes, of course.
• 5:48
  Jacqueline Harvey: And um, so we had a photo front on that.
• 5:51
  Jacqueline Harvey: David took, but my favorite photo is the photo side on of my husband.
• 5:55
  Jacqueline Harvey: My husband took it and it's me.
• 5:57
  Jacqueline Harvey: And the prince sign on and six bodyguards in the background watching us.
• 6:01
  Jacqueline Harvey: So, you know, I had this ridiculous experience where I met a prince in a bookshop.
• 6:05
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 6:06
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I started thinking we, we went from Singapore, we went to France, and I thought I could write a book with a prince in it.
• 6:12
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I started, you know, having delusions of, you know, writing, uh, romcoms for adults, you know mm-hmm.
• 6:17
  Jacqueline Harvey: With the princes and all this sort of thing.
• 6:20
  Jacqueline Harvey: And then when we were in France, we, um, we traveled all over France for about six weeks.
• 6:24
  Jacqueline Harvey: And when we were there, um, we stayed in Versailles for about three days and we actually, uh, I had been to the palace before, but only on a day trip.
• 6:32
  Jacqueline Harvey: And this time I got to, you know, stay in the town and go to the palace extensively.
• 6:38
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I started thinking, oh, I could write about a French prince, but who would it be?
• 6:41
  Jacqueline Harvey: And anyway, then I started researching, um, Marie Antoinette's children.
• 6:47
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so Louis the 17th is the Prince in the book, and he's the ghost and.
• 6:52
  Jacqueline Harvey: Poor old Louis or poor young Louis, he had a pretty terrible life.
• 6:56
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I decided there was a, there's a glitch in his life where nobody saw him for a year and he was in, in a prison.
• 7:02
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I thought, I'm gonna take that and use that to age him up and give him a better, a better four years of his life than he had.
• 7:09
  Jacqueline Harvey: 'cause I didn't want him to be an annoying younger brother kind of figure to my main character.
• 7:13
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yeah, and essentially meeting a prince in a bookshop is what inspired me to write the girl in the ghost.
• 7:18
  Tina Strachan: Oh my gosh.
• 7:19
  Tina Strachan: What an incredible story.
• 7:20
  Tina Strachan: I thought you were gonna say when you had the pen in your hand that you like drew on him accidentally, or this really expensive shirt or something.
• 7:27
  Jacqueline Harvey: No, thank goodness I would've died if I'd done that.
• 7:30
  Jacqueline Harvey: Still, it was just embarrassing having a pen, you know, hooked in my fingers when I shook his hand.
• 7:35
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 7:35
  Tina Strachan: One of those things that we do when we're kind of in the moment, isn't it?
• 7:38
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yes.
• 7:38
  Tina Strachan: Oh, that's that.
• 7:40
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 7:40
  Tina Strachan: So there's so many things there.
• 7:41
  Tina Strachan: So do you, so you get your inspiration then for your books and, and your series.
• 7:46
  Tina Strachan: Do you often get them from things like that, that are happening in real life?
• 7:49
  Tina Strachan: Is that.
• 7:50
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yeah.
• 7:50
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yeah.
• 7:50
  Jacqueline Harvey: Often it's traveling.
• 7:52
  Jacqueline Harvey: Often it's places that we go to or something interesting that I see and then I think, oh, how can I turn that into a story?
• 7:59
  Jacqueline Harvey: So, um, you know, like even in all of the Alice Miranda books, pretty much, you know, they're, they're set, uh, often at, they're set at school, but then they're often set in other parts of the world, and every single one of them has been inspired by travels to those places.
• 8:13
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 8:13
  Jacqueline Harvey: So, um.
• 8:15
  Jacqueline Harvey: Uh, you know, Alice Miranda in China, there's an acrobatics troop in it.
• 8:19
  Jacqueline Harvey: And, um, when we were in China, we went to see these incredible acrobatic shows.
• 8:24
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so, you know, that was kinda, oh, that'd make a good idea for a story.
• 8:27
  Jacqueline Harvey: So, yeah, I'm always, um, I guess picking out bits of real life and thinking, how can I turn that into a story?
• 8:33
  Jacqueline Harvey: And, uh, yeah, even, even Kenzie Max, you know, the spy series, um, that was inspired because we were in a, we were in a pub in London called the Morpeth Ths.
• 8:42
  Jacqueline Harvey: And the Morpeth Ths has a restaurant called the Spying Room.
• 8:44
  Jacqueline Harvey: And, uh, when you go up to the spying room, there is a sign, uh, there's a, there's signs on the tables, and it says, can you spy on the spies?
• 8:53
  Jacqueline Harvey: And they give you a pair of binoculars on your table.
• 8:55
  Jacqueline Harvey: And that's because the Morpeth arm sits on the Thames right opposite the headquarters of MY six.
• 9:01
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so they give you the binoculars so you can spy across the river at the real spies.
• 9:05
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I always thought, how silly to tell everybody where your real spies are.
• 9:08
  Jacqueline Harvey: 'cause then they're sitting ducks.
• 9:10
  Jacqueline Harvey: And then I thought, what if they're not real?
• 9:12
  Jacqueline Harvey: What?
• 9:12
  Jacqueline Harvey: What if MY six is just a PR company and the real spies are a bunch of kids?
• 9:16
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, in an unlikely place around the corner.
• 9:18
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so that whole Millbank area, that's what I used, you know, every location in that story actually exists apart from, um, number 13 Ponsonby Terrace, which is where the twins, where Kenzie Max live.
• 9:32
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I made sure there was no number 13 or that, that that house doesn't actually exist because, you know, people say, why do you do that?
• 9:38
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I said, because.
• 9:40
  Jacqueline Harvey: In just in case kids get a bit obsessed with the books and they go to 13 Po Beach Terrace and knock on the door.
• 9:46
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 9:46
  Jacqueline Harvey: And you know, people have said to me, oh, kids don't do that.
• 9:48
  Jacqueline Harvey: I got this incredible letter from a family a couple of years ago with all the photos, and they had been to everywhere that was in the stories.
• 9:55
  Jacqueline Harvey: They'd been, they were having lunch at the Morpeth arms.
• 9:58
  Jacqueline Harvey: They were, um, they were at the outside the Penguin Random House building, which I use as the.
• 10:02
  Jacqueline Harvey: Inspiration for the, the Beacon, um, newspaper building.
• 10:06
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 10:06
  Jacqueline Harvey: They'd been everywhere.
• 10:07
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I thought, and they said to me, we couldn't find number 13 Fon terrorists.
• 10:11
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yes.
• 10:11
  Jacqueline Harvey: Thank goodness.
• 10:12
  Jacqueline Harvey: Thank goodness.
• 10:13
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 10:13
  Tina Strachan: So that's a little, that's a really good word of warning then, isn't it?
• 10:15
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yeah.
• 10:16
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 10:16
  Tina Strachan: Or I mean, they could even just like write letters to, to that address or something.
• 10:19
  Tina Strachan: Couldn't Exactly.
• 10:20
  Tina Strachan: These people are just like that.
• 10:22
  Tina Strachan: Live there.
• 10:22
  Tina Strachan: Just thinking what,
• 10:23
  Jacqueline Harvey: like, dear Kenzie and Max, who are they writing to?
• 10:25
  Jacqueline Harvey: I don't know these people.
• 10:26
  Tina Strachan: Oh, that's incredible.
• 10:28
  Tina Strachan: But also the spying room.
• 10:29
  Tina Strachan: That is a great name for a book.
• 10:31
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yeah.
• 10:32
  Tina Strachan: Isn't it the spying room?
• 10:33
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, the spying room.
• 10:34
  Jacqueline Harvey: That's
• 10:34
  Tina Strachan: cool.
• 10:35
  Tina Strachan: Uh, so, so yes, you've written a lot of books now.
• 10:39
  Tina Strachan: Uh mm-hmm.
• 10:40
  Tina Strachan: Jacqueline, uh, do you still.
• 10:43
  Tina Strachan: Celebrate each release day when something comes out.
• 10:46
  Tina Strachan: Do you still do something?
• 10:47
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, yeah, I, I mean, I think it's, I do, I mean, I always sort of, you know, have a little, um, uh, I don't know.
• 10:55
  Jacqueline Harvey: I mean, I suppose we don't, we don't sort of, you know, have a big tads most of the time.
• 10:59
  Jacqueline Harvey: It just, it just depends too.
• 11:01
  Jacqueline Harvey: So, you know, for example, for the girl and the ghost, we had a really big launch for that in Sydney.
• 11:05
  Jacqueline Harvey: We, uh, we did a high tea, um, at the, uh.
• 11:10
  Jacqueline Harvey: At one of the, the hotels in the city.
• 11:13
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so, you know, I felt like that was a massive celebration, you know, hotel a hundred guests, that, that was, was pretty special.
• 11:20
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yeah.
• 11:20
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, but yeah, every book that comes out, I definitely, you know, raise a glass to, to the, the next, uh, next edition.
• 11:27
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yeah.
• 11:28
  Jacqueline Harvey: So yeah,
• 11:29
  Tina Strachan: to
• 11:29
  Jacqueline Harvey: the effort.
• 11:29
  Jacqueline Harvey: It, it is hard though, and I, I think, um, it is tricky because often.
• 11:33
  Jacqueline Harvey: When something comes out, I'm really, you know, uh, knee deep into something else, something else.
• 11:38
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so it's, it's that thing where you really need to pause and take a breath and say, oh, this is really, you know, yay, we've done this one.
• 11:46
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 11:47
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, and so, yeah, sometimes I have to remind myself, I guess, to, uh.
• 11:50
  Jacqueline Harvey: You take a breath.
• 11:52
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:53
  Tina Strachan: And reward yourself for that effort and, and everybody else.
• 11:55
  Tina Strachan: 'cause it's, you know, all the publishers and your editors everything as well, isn't it?
• 11:59
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 11:59
  Tina Strachan: So I think, um, I counted, you've got ma you've got over 60 books almost close to 70
• 12:05
  Jacqueline Harvey: now.
• 12:05
  Jacqueline Harvey: 67 I think is, uh, I think the next one will be 67.
• 12:09
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 12:09
  Jacqueline Harvey: Wow.
• 12:09
  Jacqueline Harvey: Which is not good when you're in schools at the moment because when you say to kids, I've got.
• 12:12
  Jacqueline Harvey: 67 books that's like, oh, and don't even go there.
• 12:16
  Jacqueline Harvey: You know, I'm, I'm, there's that whole six seven thing.
• 12:18
  Jacqueline Harvey: I'm like, no, don't
• 12:19
  Tina Strachan: just go, just go straight to 68.
• 12:21
  Tina Strachan: That's okay.
• 12:22
  Jacqueline Harvey: I'm going straight to 68.
• 12:23
  Jacqueline Harvey: That's right.
• 12:24
  Tina Strachan: Oh, isn't that funny, kids?
• 12:25
  Tina Strachan: I love those little things that they come up with.
• 12:27
  Tina Strachan: Um, yeah.
• 12:28
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 12:29
  Tina Strachan: So that, that's interesting.
• 12:30
  Tina Strachan: Hot tip.
• 12:30
  Tina Strachan: Um, so that'll be, that's a good problem to have though, to have 67 books that you have to worry about saying that.
• 12:37
  Tina Strachan: So I feel like, you know, we spoke a little bit about where you get your inspiration from, but I feel like you've probably just.
• 12:42
  Tina Strachan: You're someone who has a constant stream of ideas.
• 12:45
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 12:46
  Tina Strachan: And you know, it's, it's been May around 20 years that since you first published your first
• 12:51
  Jacqueline Harvey: book.
• 12:51
  Jacqueline Harvey: Uh, yeah.
• 12:51
  Jacqueline Harvey: So, um, my very first book came out in 2003, so it's over 20 years.
• 12:55
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm.
• 12:55
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, but I had four books come out in quite quick succession in oh 3, 0 4 and oh five.
• 13:00
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 13:01
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, and then.
• 13:03
  Jacqueline Harvey: Uh, but I was still working full-time as a, I was a deputy head of a, a a school in Sydney.
• 13:08
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 13:08
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so then nothing happened for five years after that.
• 13:12
  Jacqueline Harvey: And when Alice Miranda came out in 2010, that was the book that really changed everything.
• 13:17
  Jacqueline Harvey: That was the series that changed everything because, um, after I, I still worked full time for the next three years and, uh, juggled, uh, you know, and probably didn't have a weekend off for three years pretty much.
• 13:30
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 13:31
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, and.
• 13:32
  Jacqueline Harvey: Just, it got, it got to the point where I had to make a decision.
• 13:36
  Jacqueline Harvey: I couldn't do both anymore.
• 13:37
  Jacqueline Harvey: I was just too tired and, uh, just not able to do it.
• 13:41
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so at the end of, in October 31st of October, 2012, I took the giant leap to become a full-time writer.
• 13:48
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so I had been full-time since the end of 2012, so beginning of 2013.
• 13:53
  Tina Strachan: So you were a teacher before
• 13:55
  Jacqueline Harvey: here?
• 13:55
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yeah, I was a teacher and then I was, uh, deputy head.
• 13:58
  Jacqueline Harvey: And then, uh, for the last three years of my career I was, uh, what was called the director of Development of the school.
• 14:03
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 14:03
  Jacqueline Harvey: Which meant that I, I actually had stepped away from the teaching and I was in charge of, uh, communications publications, the school foundation, the old girls union events, um, you name it, all those things.
• 14:16
  Jacqueline Harvey: And that I went to that job in the school's hundred 25th birthday year.
• 14:21
  Jacqueline Harvey: So the.
• 14:22
  Jacqueline Harvey: It was a bit of a baptism of fire to have to suddenly organize, you know, um, a, a concert at the Opera House for 3000 people.
• 14:30
  Tina Strachan: Wow.
• 14:30
  Jacqueline Harvey: And, um, you know, uh, a dinner dance for the parents for, you know, 500 people, that sort of thing.
• 14:37
  Jacqueline Harvey: But I really think that job put me, stood me in good stead for.
• 14:42
  Jacqueline Harvey: Being a ri it, it all the stuff that goes with writing, you know, all that peripheral stuff, like organizing book launches and doing events and, you know, being able to do your own, uh, you know, uh, how do you spread the word, what sort of media, all those things was really helpful.
• 14:59
  Jacqueline Harvey: So I'm, I'm glad that I.
• 15:01
  Jacqueline Harvey: Had that, you know, career, uh, path.
• 15:05
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 15:06
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 15:06
  Tina Strachan: It was kinda like practice or a little bit of extra learning on the way that you don't know you'd need to know about until you, until you publish author.
• 15:13
  Jacqueline Harvey: No, because most, I mean, a lot of people think that you just write a book and then it goes out into the world, and then that's the end of it.
• 15:18
  Jacqueline Harvey: Well, that's the beginning of it.
• 15:20
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so there's so much more to being a writer than just writing the books.
• 15:25
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, definitely.
• 15:27
  Tina Strachan: Um, I wanna come back to that, but I wanted to ask you, um, you mentioned, you know, you had a few books out in quick succession and then there was this five.
• 15:35
  Tina Strachan: Break.
• 15:35
  Tina Strachan: Can you talk a little
• 15:36
  Jacqueline Harvey: bit?
• 15:36
  Jacqueline Harvey: Walk in
• 15:37
  Tina Strachan: the wilderness walk.
• 15:38
  Tina Strachan: That's a lovely one.
• 15:39
  Tina Strachan: Walk in the wilderness research period of time.
• 15:41
  Tina Strachan: I don't know, can you talk a little bit about that?
• 15:43
  Tina Strachan: Because um, that's how it can roll sometimes as an author, can't it?
• 15:47
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 15:47
  Tina Strachan: And definitely second when people think about second books,'cause it was a, it was a series, those first few books.
• 15:52
  Jacqueline Harvey: So I had a series called the code name series.
• 15:54
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yeah.
• 15:54
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, world's Ugliest Covers.
• 15:56
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, when your publisher, you know, says to you, oh, this is lovely, and you think, no, it's not actually go with your gut.
• 16:02
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 16:02
  Jacqueline Harvey: If you think it's not.
• 16:03
  Jacqueline Harvey: Tell, tell them.
• 16:04
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 16:04
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I mean, I was a Ws because I was just so grateful to be published and I thought, oh, I can't say anything because I don't wanna upset anybody.
• 16:12
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 16:12
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, but really, you know, you, your gut, you know, you know if it's good or it's not.
• 16:18
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I just looked at it.
• 16:19
  Jacqueline Harvey: Ugh.
• 16:19
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yuck.
• 16:19
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yeah.
• 16:19
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um.
• 16:21
  Jacqueline Harvey: I mean, they were photographs and the first one wasn't even in focus, so it was pretty ish.
• 16:26
  Jacqueline Harvey: Uh, the girl was in focus, the dog was out of focus.
• 16:29
  Jacqueline Harvey: Oh.
• 16:29
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I was like, it should be cute little girl with a golden retriever puppy, you know?
• 16:33
  Jacqueline Harvey: Uh, anyway, um, so that was the series.
• 16:36
  Jacqueline Harvey: And then I did a picture book as well called The Sound of the Sea.
• 16:38
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 16:39
  Jacqueline Harvey: And that picture book was an honor book in the 2006, um, book of the year awards.
• 16:44
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 16:44
  Jacqueline Harvey: And, um.
• 16:47
  Jacqueline Harvey: You know, I sort of thought, oh, well I'm on my way.
• 16:49
  Jacqueline Harvey: I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna be a writer.
• 16:51
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I thought, I'm gonna write picture books.
• 16:52
  Jacqueline Harvey: This is, this is my thing.
• 16:54
  Jacqueline Harvey: And then nothing happened for, you know, the best part of, well, the next three years I was writing, but I was getting knocked back on everything and you know, nobody wanted to know me and I tried.
• 17:07
  Jacqueline Harvey: One of my things has always been.
• 17:09
  Jacqueline Harvey: That I wanted to be a one publisher author.
• 17:12
  Jacqueline Harvey: I didn't want to be all over the place with, you know, five different publishers because I sort of feel like, well, uh, you know, I, I looked at really successful Australian children's authors like Morris Eman or Andy Griffith, or Jackie French, and.
• 17:26
  Jacqueline Harvey: I looked at them and thought they have one publisher, they've only ever had pretty much one publisher.
• 17:32
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so I tried really hard to stay with the publisher that, um, had published my first four books and unfortunately they didn't like Alice Miranda and so they didn't want Alice Miranda.
• 17:43
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so then I had to, you know, get back out there, just shopping it around and, you know, I.
• 17:50
  Jacqueline Harvey: I was fairly demoralized at this point.
• 17:51
  Jacqueline Harvey: I sort of really thought that I'd never get anything published ever again.
• 17:55
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I remember having a monumental whinge to a, a very famous friend of mine called Marcus Za, who, um, I, he was at school doing some work with me with some year six girls.
• 18:07
  Jacqueline Harvey: And, uh, I remember sitting in my office with him and sort of saying, oh, I don't think anything's ever gonna happen again.
• 18:11
  Jacqueline Harvey: And, you know, it's so hard.
• 18:12
  Jacqueline Harvey: And, um, and I, I said something to him about a, a character that wasn't working and he gave me.
• 18:18
  Jacqueline Harvey: A bit of advice and I just said, oh, that's interesting.
• 18:21
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yeah, I'm, I'll try that.
• 18:22
  Jacqueline Harvey: And it was really simple.
• 18:23
  Jacqueline Harvey: It was just, you know, think about what's obvious and right the opposite.
• 18:26
  Jacqueline Harvey: And, um, and it was for, for a character that just didn't, you know, wasn't resonating with me.
• 18:33
  Jacqueline Harvey: And, uh, anyway, so I did what he said and lo and behold, you know, I mean, I'm sure that had an impact, but, uh, another, well, I don't know how many, how I, I can't tell you how much later, longer after that.
• 18:46
  Jacqueline Harvey: But then I.
• 18:47
  Jacqueline Harvey: Gave Alice Miranda to a friend of mine who knew Lindsay Knight at Random House, and she passed it on to Lindsay.
• 18:55
  Jacqueline Harvey: And Lindsay loved it.
• 18:57
  Jacqueline Harvey: And then, you know, the rest is sort of history that, um, suddenly I went from no books on the horizon to many books on the horizon.
• 19:05
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 19:05
  Jacqueline Harvey: And my entire life changed, you know, and, and it didn't change overnight.
• 19:09
  Jacqueline Harvey: It, you know, I kept working for three years in my job, but.
• 19:12
  Jacqueline Harvey: By the time I left my school job, um, you know, I could be a full-time writer.
• 19:19
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so that's, you know, that changed everything because there's not many people that can be full-time writers.
• 19:24
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, sadly.
• 19:25
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 19:26
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 19:26
  Tina Strachan: No, that's an incredible story.
• 19:28
  Tina Strachan: So, and um, it's amazing that you, you know, you stuck with, you obviously had faith in the Alice Miranda.
• 19:35
  Tina Strachan: Character in the series, and so you stuck with that and you really championed that for yourself.
• 19:40
  Tina Strachan: Do you have any advice for authors who, because you know, you get a knock back and you think, well, that, you know, a lot of people do think that, well, the story's not right, or it's wrong.
• 19:49
  Tina Strachan: Or maybe should
• 19:49
  Jacqueline Harvey: just go for something
• 19:50
  Tina Strachan: else, like, yeah.
• 19:51
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yeah.
• 19:52
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I was playing over that period of time, I was playing with a lot of different things.
• 19:56
  Jacqueline Harvey: So I was, you know, I started writing Alice Miranda as a picture book, and then I, I sort of got this character and I thought, oh no, she's got a lot more to say.
• 20:03
  Jacqueline Harvey: I mean, she has 21 novels now, but she does have a lot more to say.
• 20:07
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, and I don't know why I just, I mean, I suppose I.
• 20:12
  Jacqueline Harvey: I actually just sat back and I thought, I wanna write the story that I would've wanted to read when I was 10 years old.
• 20:17
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 20:17
  Jacqueline Harvey: And that was what I just thought, you know, blow it.
• 20:20
  Jacqueline Harvey: I'm just gonna write this for me.
• 20:21
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I really didn't write it thinking, oh, you know, this is going to do anything amazing.
• 20:27
  Jacqueline Harvey: I just wrote it thinking this is the best book that I can write at.
• 20:30
  Jacqueline Harvey: This time.
• 20:30
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 20:31
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I was fortunate too because I had a, I had a captive audience at school, so I would test out the material and the kids and the, the girls were great.
• 20:40
  Jacqueline Harvey: I, I worked in a girls school and so, um, I was very fortunate.
• 20:44
  Jacqueline Harvey: I had, you know, really strong relationships with the kids.
• 20:47
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I just say to them, don't tell me.
• 20:49
  Jacqueline Harvey: Don't tell me what you think I wanna hear.
• 20:50
  Jacqueline Harvey: Tell me what you actually, what you think.
• 20:53
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so it was great because kids would, you know, give me feedback and they'd say, well, I like this bit.
• 20:58
  Jacqueline Harvey: I'm not so sure about this bit.
• 20:59
  Jacqueline Harvey: Or, you know, and in the end I'm sure that, um, the kids being champions of the books really helped a lot too.
• 21:05
  Jacqueline Harvey: So, um, one of our, our teachers.
• 21:09
  Jacqueline Harvey: Unbeknownst to me, made videos of her kids and their reactions to the story.
• 21:14
  Jacqueline Harvey: And she, she sent them to me.
• 21:16
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I'll never forget we had this one little girl, Mary Louise, and uh, she was as cute as a button.
• 21:21
  Jacqueline Harvey: She had little red glasses.
• 21:22
  Jacqueline Harvey: And her teacher said to her, so Mary Louise, why do you like Alice Miranda?
• 21:27
  Jacqueline Harvey: And she said, oh, I don't like her.
• 21:29
  Jacqueline Harvey: I love her.
• 21:31
  Jacqueline Harvey: And it was the cutest thing ever.
• 21:33
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so when it came to, um.
• 21:36
  Jacqueline Harvey: When the book ended up at, at Random House, I actually sent this video compilation, which hadn't been made by me, but had been made by Georgina.
• 21:44
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, and, you know, Lindsay Knight said to me, I just adored the fact that these kids were so, so enthusiastic about the stories.
• 21:54
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so, um, yeah, I mean that's sort of, I think all of that kind of, you know, came together.
• 22:01
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 22:01
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 22:02
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 22:02
  Tina Strachan: What a great sales pitch though, isn't it, to have the kids who are your readers
• 22:06
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yeah.
• 22:06
  Tina Strachan: Talk so confidently about it with, with, you know, such enthusiasm.
• 22:10
  Tina Strachan: That's incredible.
• 22:12
  Tina Strachan: Oh, well, it's, it truly, uh, has proven to be very, uh, you are quite right to stick with that, with that series and, and change that and stick with your gut.
• 22:21
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 22:21
  Tina Strachan: Surely that's.
• 22:22
  Tina Strachan: Um, it's worked out extremely well.
• 22:24
  Tina Strachan: 2021 books now.
• 22:26
  Jacqueline Harvey: 21 books and two animated feature films later.
• 22:28
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yes, it's, um, it, it, and, and something exciting else on the horizon, which we can't talk about yet, but, oh wow.
• 22:35
  Jacqueline Harvey: It's something very exciting on the horizon as well.
• 22:37
  Jacqueline Harvey: But, um, yeah, and, and even like that, that strategy though, to give the book.
• 22:41
  Jacqueline Harvey: To young readers.
• 22:43
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 22:44
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, so with the girl and the ghost, I, I gave the girl and the ghost the manuscript to four different young readers.
• 22:52
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, you know, some, oh, I mean, they were, they were kids of people that I knew.
• 22:57
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yeah.
• 22:58
  Jacqueline Harvey: But sent them all around Australia and to have the kids give their feedback mm-hmm.
• 23:02
  Jacqueline Harvey: Was amazing.
• 23:03
  Jacqueline Harvey: I mean, one, one little girl was in Dubai, one's in Adelaide, one was in Queensland, and one.
• 23:08
  Jacqueline Harvey: In Queenstown, New Zealand.
• 23:09
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 23:10
  Jacqueline Harvey: So to have those kids be able to say what they thought before it went to print.
• 23:16
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 23:16
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, I think that's, you know, it's incredibly valuable to get the kids' opinions because really, I mean, you, I'm writing for the kids.
• 23:23
  Jacqueline Harvey: I'm not, you know, it's lovely to have adult reviews that are very positive and glowing, but ultimately.
• 23:28
  Jacqueline Harvey: I want the kids to love it because they're the, they're the readership.
• 23:31
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 23:32
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 23:32
  Tina Strachan: No, that's a really good tip.
• 23:33
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 23:33
  Tina Strachan: Send it out maybe beforehand to the kids and see what they, um, can, what feedback they can give you.
• 23:39
  Tina Strachan: Do you also have, um, like beta readers or critique.
• 23:43
  Tina Strachan: Partners or anything that you send things to?
• 23:45
  Tina Strachan: No.
• 23:45
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 23:46
  Tina Strachan: Well, we probably don't need them now.
• 23:47
  Jacqueline Harvey: Uh, what I do though, I am, I mean, I do talk to, you know, like I'm very good friends with several other, you know, authors and, you know, uh, we'll talk about, oh, this bit's not working, or, you know, I need a bit of advice with this.
• 24:00
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um.
• 24:02
  Jacqueline Harvey: What I tend to do though, I have really close relationships with my publisher and my editor.
• 24:07
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 24:08
  Jacqueline Harvey: And, uh, and my, and my publicist.
• 24:10
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 24:10
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so if I'm stuck on something or if I'm not sure about something.
• 24:15
  Jacqueline Harvey: I'll just, um, call them up and, uh, a lot of the time I actually will read to them and that, um, that, and then I hear it and I think, oh, is that working?
• 24:25
  Jacqueline Harvey: Is it not working?
• 24:26
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 24:26
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, I'm very fortunate that I have, you know, very extremely patient, patient publishers and editors who are wonderful to work with.
• 24:35
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so also, and also that thing, you know, I said earlier about wanting to be a one.
• 24:40
  Jacqueline Harvey: Publisher author.
• 24:41
  Jacqueline Harvey: So after my first four books and when I went to, um, so then I went to Random House, and then obviously Random House merged with Penguin, and now it's Penguin Random House.
• 24:49
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 24:50
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, so I have done 53 books with them.
• 24:55
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 24:55
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so, and, and all, you know, and when I say 53 books, I, I actually have more books because I have diaries and, um, you know, uh, movie tie-ins and all those sorts of things.
• 25:04
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 25:04
  Jacqueline Harvey: I only count the books that I've kind of written and, and not repackaged.
• 25:08
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um.
• 25:10
  Jacqueline Harvey: So for me that cultivating of relationships has been extremely important.
• 25:14
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so at Penguin, um, you know, I could walk into the office on any day of the week and there'll be 20 people that I can say hello to by a name, which is probably quite unique, um, a unique situation to be in.
• 25:28
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 25:28
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I mean, just when I was getting off the plane from, uh, when I was in Tasmania last week, I was.
• 25:33
  Jacqueline Harvey: Getting off the plane in Sydney and the CEO of, uh, ping Random House and the sales director were there and, you know, I was like, oh, you're, and they were getting, they were actually getting on the plane to go to Tasmania, sitting in the seats that my husband and I have just had in no.
• 25:47
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, so, you know, there's that serendipitous,
• 25:50
  Tina Strachan: yeah.
• 25:51
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 25:51
  Tina Strachan: It's.
• 25:52
  Jacqueline Harvey: It's lovely.
• 25:53
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 25:53
  Tina Strachan: It's a lovely story because, you know, that was your, uh, in the first instance you were saying like, I just, it would be so nice to just stay with one publisher for a long period of time because that's how I see all the really famous authors.
• 26:04
  Tina Strachan: And it didn't, and it didn't quite start out that way, did it?
• 26:08
  Tina Strachan: But there's exactly what you've done now and.
• 26:11
  Tina Strachan: Story.
• 26:12
  Jacqueline Harvey: It's a, it's a nice way to just build, you know, build relationships.
• 26:15
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I think, you know, for, for me, I'm very loyal to them and they're very loyal to me.
• 26:20
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yeah.
• 26:20
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so I know when we do something, they're gonna put, you know, they're gonna put as much effort into it as I do.
• 26:26
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yeah.
• 26:26
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I think that's really lovely to know that mm-hmm.
• 26:29
  Jacqueline Harvey: You know, we've got that reciprocal relationship.
• 26:31
  Jacqueline Harvey: And, you know, I've, I've had, I suppose if we are talking, well, what is it?
• 26:36
  Jacqueline Harvey: 16 years since I started with them.
• 26:39
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, you know, I've only had a handful of different publishers and I've only had a, a smaller handful of publicists.
• 26:47
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, you know, and, and often when, like, when you're with the publicists, you travel with the publicists more than you travel with your family.
• 26:53
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 26:53
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so it's really important that you get on and that you, you know, have a, have a good relationship with them.
• 26:59
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 26:59
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yeah.
• 26:59
  Jacqueline Harvey: I mean, I do feel like I'm taking my little sisters on, on, on tour most of the time.
• 27:05
  Tina Strachan: Oh, that's perfect.
• 27:05
  Tina Strachan: It's a, it's still a family vibe then.
• 27:07
  Tina Strachan: That's incredible.
• 27:08
  Tina Strachan: It's lovely.
• 27:08
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 27:08
  Tina Strachan: That's really nice.
• 27:10
  Tina Strachan: Oh, well, so, um, you know, almost 70 books in, uh, just over 20 years.
• 27:15
  Tina Strachan: That kind of, you know, if my maths isn't too wrong, maybe about three books a year, Jacqueline, that you are pumping out.
• 27:21
  Tina Strachan: So tell me, do you, um, you must have some sort of structure and I'm sure that's probably changed over time.
• 27:29
  Tina Strachan: Do you, are you a plotter or a panther or A little bit of both.
• 27:33
  Tina Strachan: How do you, A bit of both.
• 27:35
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 27:36
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, a bit of both, but I tend to plan, I'd like to say I plan like the big ideas, the bones of the story.
• 27:42
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yeah.
• 27:42
  Jacqueline Harvey: So I, I will think very much about who's in it, where's it going to be set.
• 27:47
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 27:48
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, you know, what are the sorts of quirks these characters might have, and often they develop over time as you write the story, they become more apparent.
• 27:56
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um.
• 27:57
  Jacqueline Harvey: I will plan, sort of, I'll think about the plot and think, well, you know, how's this going to play out?
• 28:02
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, but I also like to give myself opportunities to be surprised.
• 28:08
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so, um, you know, sometimes.
• 28:11
  Jacqueline Harvey: I can give you a, a prime example.
• 28:13
  Jacqueline Harvey: So in the Alice Miranda, in the Alps, which I actually just recorded for audio a few, a couple of months ago, and I hadn't read it for years and years, and I knew that I had this woman in it called Sania.
• 28:23
  Jacqueline Harvey: And Sania was very glamorous, very glamorous Italian in the snow, in, uh, in Samitz.
• 28:30
  Jacqueline Harvey: And you know, she just sort of seemed like she was a bit vapid and she was with this very bossy Italian man.
• 28:36
  Jacqueline Harvey: And the kids are like, like she's a bit full of own importance, this sort of thing.
• 28:40
  Jacqueline Harvey: Anyway, at the end of it, I was sort of thinking, oh, you know, he's, he's a badie, this guy, the Italian guy.
• 28:47
  Jacqueline Harvey: And then I thought, but what if she wasn't, what if she was Italian Secret service?
• 28:50
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so in the end, she comes in with the freewheeling spinning kicks and she ends up like whacking this guy out of the way and the kid's like cia.
• 28:57
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so, you know, in her huge high heeled Balenciaga boots or whatever she's got on, she's, you know, she's kicking butt basically.
• 29:05
  Jacqueline Harvey: And that sort of thing I love because.
• 29:08
  Jacqueline Harvey: You don't always know, you know, even though I have a fairly good idea of who the baddies are, um, it sometimes is nice to be surprised.
• 29:16
  Jacqueline Harvey: And even in the Girl on the Ghost at the moment, I've, um, so the third book, which is about to come out in May, so they have a, a new housekeeper and.
• 29:25
  Jacqueline Harvey: In the beginning I thought, oh yeah, I've got an idea of who the housekeeper is.
• 29:30
  Jacqueline Harvey: And, um, but in the end it will really shock readers what she, I mean, not only who she is, but what she does to not, or to help, um.
• 29:41
  Jacqueline Harvey: Josephine rather than to hinder.
• 29:43
  Jacqueline Harvey: So
• 29:45
  Tina Strachan: yeah, I love that when the story comes and surprises you.
• 29:47
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 29:47
  Tina Strachan: But also what you, just what you said, um, a little bit earlier about, think about what's the, what's obvious and then do the opposite of it.
• 29:54
  Tina Strachan: Right.
• 29:54
  Jacqueline Harvey: The opposite.
• 29:54
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 29:55
  Tina Strachan: I love that.
• 29:55
  Tina Strachan: That's great advice as well.
• 29:56
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 29:56
  Tina Strachan: Thanks
• 29:56
  Jacqueline Harvey: Marcus for that tip many years ago.
• 29:59
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, no, that's a really, that's a very good tip.
• 30:01
  Tina Strachan: And, um, do you, what kind of, tell us about the, your craft of.
• 30:05
  Tina Strachan: Of how you actually get the words on the paper.
• 30:07
  Tina Strachan: Do you have any writing tools that you use?
• 30:09
  Tina Strachan: Do you use Scrivener?
• 30:10
  Tina Strachan: You just straight into Word.
• 30:12
  Jacqueline Harvey: Word I use, uh, so I use, I have a notebook for every.
• 30:17
  Jacqueline Harvey: Every, um, uh, different series or whatever has a series of notebooks, and that's where I scribble my, or, you know, ideas.
• 30:24
  Jacqueline Harvey: But I often scribble during the process I'll, you know, start writing things down.
• 30:28
  Jacqueline Harvey: I have a whiteboard and I often write stuff all over the whiteboard, and then I'll photograph it and put it in a folder to do with the story.
• 30:36
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um.
• 30:37
  Jacqueline Harvey: I just, and once I've kind of got the outline and the ideas of the characters and that sort of thing, I just start typing and, but I type in Word and I always have the comments part open so that I can write myself notes throughout the process.
• 30:50
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, yeah, that's, that's how it goes.
• 30:52
  Jacqueline Harvey: I, I did look at, you know, things like SCR and I just.
• 30:56
  Jacqueline Harvey: I, I just sort of feel like I need to do it my way and I need to do it organically, and that's how it works for me.
• 31:03
  Jacqueline Harvey: And you know, all powder, anybody who uses whatever they wanna use except ai, let's not be going there at all.
• 31:10
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um.
• 31:12
  Jacqueline Harvey: But yeah, I, um, I, I, I'm very simple the way I do it.
• 31:16
  Jacqueline Harvey: It's a very simple process.
• 31:17
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 31:17
  Tina Strachan: Well, yeah.
• 31:18
  Tina Strachan: That's like you said, whatever works for you to get the words down.
• 31:22
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 31:22
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 31:22
  Tina Strachan: Don't, probably don't, like I actually do use Scrivener, but I think in the most absolute basic way, like I just, yeah.
• 31:29
  Tina Strachan: I have sort of one little file for each.
• 31:32
  Tina Strachan: Scene or chapter.
• 31:33
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 31:33
  Tina Strachan: And, um, but I, I hear it can do some pretty incredible stuff.
• 31:37
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 31:37
  Tina Strachan: Which I'm just not even going to get into and Yeah.
• 31:39
  Tina Strachan: It's, yeah.
• 31:40
  Tina Strachan: Don't wanna spend too much time on that and just, just stick with what I know.
• 31:43
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 31:44
  Jacqueline Harvey: I
• 31:44
  Tina Strachan: think
• 31:44
  Jacqueline Harvey: that's a good idea.
• 31:46
  Tina Strachan: So you mentioned before, um, Jacqueline about, you know, writing a book and having it published and then in an ideal world it would just go out there and sell itself and be amazing.
• 31:56
  Tina Strachan: But, um, you definitely do have to put a lot of work in.
• 31:59
  Tina Strachan: I mean, your publishers are backing you and you have publicity, um, depending on the size of your.
• 32:04
  Tina Strachan: Your publisher as well.
• 32:05
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 32:06
  Tina Strachan: Some people don't, some publishers, you know, it's a one man show or they've only got mm-hmm.
• 32:10
  Tina Strachan: One person spread across, um, all their authors.
• 32:13
  Tina Strachan: So you do, you know, it is a teamwork, isn't it?
• 32:15
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 32:15
  Tina Strachan: To, to get your book out there and you're definitely someone who is, um, very busy and very active in that space.
• 32:20
  Tina Strachan: So what advice can you give, uh, authors who are newly published about what can they do to help get their book out there and in the hands of readers more?
• 32:31
  Jacqueline Harvey: Okay, so one of the things I think that works really well, and it doesn't, it, you don't have to have a massive team behind you to be able to do this, uh, visit the bookshops, but let them know that you're coming.
• 32:43
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so, you know, call the bookshops, say, you know, my name's blah, I've got a new book out.
• 32:48
  Jacqueline Harvey: I was just wondering, is there a time that might be convenient to come and say hello and to maybe sign any of the books that you have, because that lets the, uh, shop.
• 32:57
  Jacqueline Harvey: First of all, uh, you know, they can say, oh, we're too busy, or, or, um, you know, you don't have that embarrassment of factor of if you walk in and they say, oh, look, sorry, we're not interested.
• 33:06
  Jacqueline Harvey: And, and that happens.
• 33:07
  Jacqueline Harvey: It does happen.
• 33:08
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yeah.
• 33:08
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, I mean, know, it's happened to me numerous times where, you know, they're kind of when you first start out and they're kinda like, who, what do you do?
• 33:15
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, so I think though relationships with booksellers is really, really important.
• 33:21
  Jacqueline Harvey: And for me, um.
• 33:24
  Jacqueline Harvey: You know, like now, uh, for example, I was in Hobart last week and, and in Launceston, and I didn't let them know I was coming because I wasn't actually there for a book tour.
• 33:33
  Jacqueline Harvey: I was there on a golf trip.
• 33:35
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, but I walked into Petra's Bookshop and I haven't been there for about.
• 33:39
  Jacqueline Harvey: Five years, uh, maybe.
• 33:42
  Jacqueline Harvey: And, you know, I didn't even, you know, I had no expectations that they'd have much stock or anything like that.
• 33:47
  Jacqueline Harvey: But I walked in and, uh, fortunately because I have done signings with them five, six years ago, uh, you know, I walked in and Marcus looked at me and he said.
• 33:55
  Jacqueline Harvey: Hello, Jacqueline Harvey.
• 33:57
  Jacqueline Harvey: I said, oh, hello Marcus.
• 33:58
  Jacqueline Harvey: How you going?
• 33:59
  Jacqueline Harvey: And then, you know, Andy, his, uh, sister appears with a great big pile of books to sign.
• 34:03
  Jacqueline Harvey: So, you know, that's a lovely experience.
• 34:05
  Jacqueline Harvey: But you know, I've had the Corolla of that.
• 34:08
  Jacqueline Harvey: I was in Cairnes last year and I walked into a bookshop and they had a couple of my books and I said, oh, hello, I'm Jacqueline Harvey.
• 34:13
  Jacqueline Harvey: Would you like me to sign these books?
• 34:14
  Jacqueline Harvey: And they said, no.
• 34:17
  Jacqueline Harvey: I was like, oh.
• 34:18
  Jacqueline Harvey: Okay, fine.
• 34:19
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yep.
• 34:19
  Jacqueline Harvey: That's okay.
• 34:20
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, I don't mind.
• 34:21
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um,
• 34:22
  Tina Strachan: oh no.
• 34:23
  Jacqueline Harvey: So, you know, and that was last year.
• 34:24
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yeah.
• 34:24
  Jacqueline Harvey: That wasn't like 10 years ago or 20 years ago.
• 34:26
  Jacqueline Harvey: That was last year.
• 34:27
  Jacqueline Harvey: So, um, and you can have interesting experiences no matter how long you've been in the business.
• 34:31
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yeah.
• 34:32
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, yeah.
• 34:33
  Jacqueline Harvey: But I, I think bookseller relationships with booksellers is a really.
• 34:37
  Jacqueline Harvey: Lovely way to, um, you know, and especially independent booksellers as well, who are going to, you know, hand sell your books.
• 34:44
  Jacqueline Harvey: Although, you know, honestly the chain booksellers have lots of wonderful staff members who, um, you know, if they get onto a book that they love, they will champion that and, you know, they'll hand sell it as well.
• 34:55
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, so I think that's one thing that you can do to help your own cause.
• 35:00
  Jacqueline Harvey: The other thing is, um, engage social media is a kind of double-edged nightmare.
• 35:04
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, because you want to engage, but you don't wanna bombard people and you know, it's always all about you.
• 35:10
  Jacqueline Harvey: So I think, um, one of the things that I really advocate is, uh, I mean your listeners will probably know about the website, your kids next read, which is, um, run by Megan Daly and Allison Tate.
• 35:23
  Jacqueline Harvey: And, um.
• 35:25
  Jacqueline Harvey: And Alison Rushie and all good friends of mine, and they have a very sort of strict rule about authors not promoting their own work.
• 35:34
  Jacqueline Harvey: But one of the things that you can do as an author is to be generous to your author, colleagues.
• 35:39
  Jacqueline Harvey: And, you know, when a parent posts on there, I'd really like a funny story.
• 35:43
  Jacqueline Harvey: You know, it'd be great if it had a teacher in it, um, blah blah.
• 35:46
  Jacqueline Harvey: And, and then I can say, well, Mr.
• 35:48
  Jacqueline Harvey: Ba Buckle by Tim Harris.
• 35:50
  Jacqueline Harvey: That's a great series.
• 35:51
  Jacqueline Harvey: You know, so.
• 35:53
  Jacqueline Harvey: Having sort of, I guess, a generosity of spirit towards your fellow authors, um, will, it, it's a really lovely, reciprocal relationship because then, you know, you kind of hope when somebody asks for, oh, has anyone got a book about a, a little girl and a dog?
• 36:08
  Jacqueline Harvey: You think, oh, somebody might write Willer and Wolf on there.
• 36:10
  Jacqueline Harvey: So that's, that's a way to use social media in a really positive way and to, you know, join.
• 36:18
  Jacqueline Harvey: And join with groups that, um, just lift people up and, and, you know, raise, raise people up and, um, yeah, make, make yourself feel, uh, make yourself part of a community.
• 36:30
  Jacqueline Harvey: And in doing that, just be a giver, not a taker.
• 36:34
  Tina Strachan: Hmm.
• 36:34
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, that's really good advice.
• 36:36
  Tina Strachan: And so, celebrating other people's successes as
• 36:38
  Jacqueline Harvey: well, you know?
• 36:38
  Jacqueline Harvey: Absolutely.
• 36:39
  Jacqueline Harvey: Because, you know, I have heard, you know, there, there are times where you hear.
• 36:42
  Jacqueline Harvey: And we all get disgruntled at times.
• 36:44
  Jacqueline Harvey: You know, we all get kinda like, ugh, really?
• 36:46
  Jacqueline Harvey: Like, you know, I've missed out of that again, I'm not, I'm, I've, nobody gave me a nod again.
• 36:51
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 36:51
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, you know, we, we all feel like that, but at the same time, you know, I, I still remember the day that, um, Marcus Suza appeared on Good Morning America and somebody sent me the clip and.
• 37:03
  Jacqueline Harvey: Their comment was kind of a bit like, well look at this.
• 37:06
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I was like, and, and my response to that was like, go, Marcus.
• 37:10
  Jacqueline Harvey: Like if that's you, why can't, why couldn't that be me one day?
• 37:13
  Jacqueline Harvey: You know?
• 37:13
  Jacqueline Harvey: Why couldn't that be all of us?
• 37:15
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I just think.
• 37:17
  Jacqueline Harvey: Be happy and celebrate other people's successes.
• 37:19
  Jacqueline Harvey: Don't, because it's not gonna make you feel any better by denigrating other people.
• 37:23
  Tina Strachan: No, no, that's right.
• 37:25
  Tina Strachan: And I don't think it opens up doors, does it?
• 37:26
  Tina Strachan: To, to help
• 37:27
  Jacqueline Harvey: you
• 37:27
  Tina Strachan: get there either.
• 37:28
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 37:29
  Jacqueline Harvey: No, and you know, one of the things that, for me too, um, like when I started out, I didn't, none of this sort of thing, your, you know, wonderful podcasts like yours existed and it was very much a matter of, you know, you used to buy the old.
• 37:42
  Jacqueline Harvey: Uh, what was it?
• 37:43
  Jacqueline Harvey: Writer's Marketplace.
• 37:44
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 37:44
  Jacqueline Harvey: The old Doorstep, yellow covered book.
• 37:46
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 37:46
  Jacqueline Harvey: And that was how you found out about stuff?
• 37:48
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yeah.
• 37:48
  Jacqueline Harvey: And for me, when I sort of got a toenail in the door, and it was really interesting, the authors who would give you advice and others who would just clam up and not tell you anything.
• 37:58
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 37:58
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I've always been someone who says, you know, look, you know, show me what you've got.
• 38:02
  Jacqueline Harvey: Or, um, a, a ask me what you wanna know because it doesn't.
• 38:07
  Jacqueline Harvey: Just because someone else might get a a gig doesn't mean that you're gonna not get a gig.
• 38:11
  Jacqueline Harvey: You know, it's there.
• 38:12
  Jacqueline Harvey: There's all of that too.
• 38:13
  Jacqueline Harvey: So if you know stuff, share it.
• 38:15
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 38:15
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 38:16
  Tina Strachan: 'cause there's a lot of comparison isn't there?
• 38:17
  Tina Strachan: Between or there's, especially starting out, you know, wanting to have the things that other people have and
• 38:22
  Jacqueline Harvey: Oh yeah.
• 38:23
  Jacqueline Harvey: And, you know, comparison is the thief of joy.
• 38:25
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 38:26
  Tina Strachan: That's a
• 38:27
  Jacqueline Harvey: really is.
• 38:27
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 38:28
  Tina Strachan: No, that's, that's great advice.
• 38:30
  Tina Strachan: Now Jacqueline, can I ask you one, uh, quick question before, um, before we finish up?
• 38:36
  Tina Strachan: Uh, you are obviously very busy.
• 38:38
  Tina Strachan: You're constantly writing.
• 38:39
  Tina Strachan: Uh, I feel like it must be like perpetual rounds of edits and Yeah.
• 38:43
  Tina Strachan: Uh, writing and drafting for you, how do you, plus, you know, all the marketing side of it that we just spoke about.
• 38:50
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 38:50
  Tina Strachan: Social media and getting out there.
• 38:52
  Tina Strachan: Uh, recently we've been getting asked this question a lot from, um, not just aspiring authors, but author, established authors.
• 38:59
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 39:00
  Jacqueline Harvey: Listen,
• 39:00
  Tina Strachan: how do you manage to do all that?
• 39:04
  Tina Strachan: Avoiding burnout.
• 39:05
  Jacqueline Harvey: Okay.
• 39:06
  Tina Strachan: What's, how do you, yeah.
• 39:07
  Tina Strachan: How do you balance that?
• 39:08
  Jacqueline Harvey: It is, it is a bit of a juggle all the time.
• 39:11
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I, I will say in 2019, I think I was, um, I had probably reached a point where I was absolutely exhausted.
• 39:18
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I mean, on top of all the excitement of, I think I had about five books come out that year.
• 39:23
  Jacqueline Harvey: I then had the movie, um, the first Alice Brand movie come out in November, which was super exciting.
• 39:28
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 39:29
  Jacqueline Harvey: But.
• 39:29
  Jacqueline Harvey: On top of everything else was exhausting.
• 39:32
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I, I do remember, um, and I'm sure Benny won't mind me saying this, Belinda Morrell, who's one of my dearest friends, her and I sitting in a coffee shop in Melbourne having breakfast and both bursting into tears and saying, we, we've just done too much, we couldn't do anymore.
• 39:44
  Jacqueline Harvey: And um, and I think it was a bit of a reality check.
• 39:47
  Jacqueline Harvey: And in fact then, you know, the next year what happens COVID.
• 39:52
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so for me, um.
• 39:55
  Jacqueline Harvey: I, I mean, I hate to say it, but COVID was like the, you know, the, the break that I needed to have in some ways because it meant that I couldn't tour and I had to stay at home.
• 40:05
  Jacqueline Harvey: And it was actually an enforced hiatus, if you like, from, from all the external busyness.
• 40:12
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, so I think that was an opportunity to take a big, long, deep breath and sort of say.
• 40:17
  Jacqueline Harvey: Okay, well how are you gonna do this when you go back to, you know, when, when the world starts up again?
• 40:23
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 40:23
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I think what I have been quite intentional about is blocking out times to write and then blocking times that I tour.
• 40:32
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so having, uh, you know, like at the moment there's sort of a six week.
• 40:37
  Jacqueline Harvey: Six week block that I'm writing and then I'm going to Australia, um, because I, I dunno if your listeners know, but I live between Queenstown, New Zealand and Sydney.
• 40:46
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so we are fortunate enough to, uh, have a place here, here in Queenstown and uh, a apartment in Sydney.
• 40:53
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so I spend probably, probably a little bit more time in Australia over the year.
• 40:56
  Jacqueline Harvey: But um, you know, it just depends how things go.
• 41:00
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so for me it's about writing in New Zealand and when I'm home writing I tend to be able to do a lot more.
• 41:06
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um.
• 41:07
  Jacqueline Harvey: You know, I can play golf, uh, uh, once a week or I can go to pickleball a few times a week and have that better balance.
• 41:14
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, and then when I'm touring, it is really full on, you know, it's much busier and you are full on into touring and you're doing, you know, x number of school visits today, or you might be doing bookshop visits or going to do events, but I am trying to focus that into a shorter period of time and not sort of let that run on.
• 41:33
  Jacqueline Harvey: For, you know, too long each time.
• 41:36
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, so that's, I guess that's one way.
• 41:39
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I, I'm also one who lives and dies by the Outlook calendar.
• 41:43
  Jacqueline Harvey: So everything, everything I do apart from, you know, um, I, I suppose, yeah, pretty much everything I do, uh, is, is in the calendar and I will know a long way in advance, you know, I can tell you that on the.
• 41:57
  Jacqueline Harvey: Oh, I think it's the, probably 2nd of November I'm going to be in a school in Singapore, you know?
• 42:03
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 42:03
  Jacqueline Harvey: And so I can tell you long time in advance how things are gonna go.
• 42:08
  Jacqueline Harvey: So planning long term for me is really important during the year.
• 42:12
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 42:12
  Jacqueline Harvey: And, and also now, you know, putting more opportunities for a bit of downtime in there as well.
• 42:17
  Jacqueline Harvey: I guess just being more deliberate in the way that I plan and also learning to say no to things sometimes too, that uh, if it's not something that's really going to.
• 42:31
  Jacqueline Harvey: You know, move stuff along and help me.
• 42:34
  Jacqueline Harvey: Uh, sometimes you just have to say no.
• 42:35
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 42:36
  Tina Strachan: Yep.
• 42:36
  Tina Strachan: No,
• 42:36
  Jacqueline Harvey: and I'm, I'm not very good at saying no, but I'm going to get better.
• 42:40
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, it is hard, isn't it, because you feel like you should, you know, you're grateful for the opportunities and also feel like you should, you know, take all of them as well.
• 42:46
  Tina Strachan: So,
• 42:46
  Jacqueline Harvey: absolutely.
• 42:47
  Tina Strachan: That's very good advice.
• 42:49
  Tina Strachan: Um, so do you have one overall top tip for our emerging authors or our day authors?
• 42:57
  Jacqueline Harvey: Okay.
• 42:58
  Jacqueline Harvey: Don't give up your day job.
• 42:59
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yet.
• 43:01
  Tina Strachan: Yet.
• 43:01
  Tina Strachan: Yet yet.
• 43:02
  Jacqueline Harvey: Don't give up your day.
• 43:05
  Jacqueline Harvey: People do.
• 43:06
  Jacqueline Harvey: They, they do get a book deal and they get very excited and they think, oh, this is it.
• 43:09
  Jacqueline Harvey: I'm going to, you know, make a lot of money and I'm gonna be fine.
• 43:13
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, it takes a long time.
• 43:15
  Jacqueline Harvey: I mean, my career is, it takes 10 years to be a, an overnight success if you like.
• 43:20
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, and, and that was very.
• 43:22
  Jacqueline Harvey: Planned and deliberate as well, you know, that I knew how many books I had to have out that were doing well to be able to, you know, give up my other job.
• 43:31
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, and also that, you know, it's generally not just writing, there's a whole of other, a lot of other things.
• 43:36
  Jacqueline Harvey: So you, you do school visits, you do, um, you know, I teach writing courses to kids in the holidays sometimes, and, you know, there's a whole bunch of other ways that you earn an income.
• 43:46
  Jacqueline Harvey: Um, I think though, my biggest bit of advice is write what you love.
• 43:51
  Jacqueline Harvey: You know, write the books that make your heart sore.
• 43:55
  Jacqueline Harvey: And, uh, as in SOR, not ORE, um, make, write those books that make you happy and make you want to.
• 44:04
  Jacqueline Harvey: You know, that you would've wanted to read when you were a kid and tap into who you were as a kid, or, you know, um, always remember one of the best bits of advice I ever got was from, uh, an illustrator, um, friend Donna Rollins, years and years and years ago.
• 44:22
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I first met her and she said, how old are you?
• 44:24
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I thought, wow.
• 44:25
  Jacqueline Harvey: She.
• 44:26
  Jacqueline Harvey: Board asking me how old I am.
• 44:27
  Jacqueline Harvey: I've only met a five minutes ago.
• 44:29
  Jacqueline Harvey: What's this?
• 44:29
  Jacqueline Harvey: And she said, no, no, no.
• 44:31
  Jacqueline Harvey: I don't care how old you are.
• 44:32
  Jacqueline Harvey: She said, how old are you in your head when you write a story?
• 44:34
  Jacqueline Harvey: And I thought, that's really great advice, because you know, for me, I'm sort of perpetually 10 years old.
• 44:42
  Jacqueline Harvey: Mm-hmm.
• 44:42
  Jacqueline Harvey: When I'm, and I'm in, I'm in my favorite.
• 44:46
  Jacqueline Harvey: Places in childhood in my head when I'm writing stories, and I think that's important to tap into.
• 44:51
  Jacqueline Harvey: So you know, to be a children's author, you've gotta remember what it was like to be a child.
• 44:55
  Tina Strachan: Mm mm-hmm.
• 44:56
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 44:56
  Tina Strachan: Very important advice.
• 44:58
  Tina Strachan: Thank you so much, Jacqueline.
• 44:59
  Tina Strachan: That was an incredible interview.
• 45:01
  Tina Strachan: You have so much information to share.
• 45:03
  Tina Strachan: We could talk for hours.
• 45:06
  Tina Strachan: I know there's so, there's so much to talk about.
• 45:08
  Tina Strachan: Um, we'll have to get you back on again.
• 45:09
  Tina Strachan: But thank you so much for being so generous and sharing that information.
• 45:12
  Tina Strachan: It's really
• 45:12
  Jacqueline Harvey: important.
• 45:12
  Jacqueline Harvey: Oh, that's all right.
• 45:13
  Jacqueline Harvey: Thank you for having me.
• 45:14
  Jacqueline Harvey: It's, um, I know it's, you know, there's so many people out there who want to write and it's a hard road and, you know, I also, I, I don't think there's no point sugarcoating it and saying it's easy because then people just become, uh, disenfranchised and sort of think, oh, I'll give up.
• 45:30
  Jacqueline Harvey: But if you want it enough, you'll do it.
• 45:32
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 45:32
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 45:33
  Tina Strachan: No.
• 45:33
  Jacqueline Harvey: Yeah.
• 45:34
  Tina Strachan: Perfect advice to finish on.
• 45:35
  Tina Strachan: Thank you so much, Jacqueline.
• 45:37
  Jacqueline Harvey: Okay.
• 45:37
  Tina Strachan: Good luck with the
• 45:38
  Jacqueline Harvey: three
• 45:38
  Tina Strachan: girl and the ghost.
• 45:39
  Jacqueline Harvey: Thank you.
• 45:40
  Jacqueline Harvey: Thank you.
• 45:46
  Tina Strachan: Thank you for listening to the book Deal podcast.
• 45:49
  Tina Strachan: We're able to bring you these weekly writerly chats because of our amazing patrons.
• 45:54
  Tina Strachan: Join the TBD family by becoming a member of our Patreon community at patreon.com\thebookdealpodcast.
• 46:03
  Tina Strachan: And if you love the pod, please give us a rating or review.
• 46:06
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