Latest / Beautifully Complex / 284: Motivation Myth Busters, with Wendy S. Grolnick, Ph.D.

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284: Motivation Myth Busters, with Wendy S. Grolnick, Ph.D. · Beautifully Complex

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: We need to take people's perspective and understand what is
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: getting in the way of their feeling motivated to do
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: something and setting up those conditions that sort of forwarth
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: those barriers. And if we don't do that, you know,
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: we get short term fixes, but not long term motivation.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I share insights
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started.
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: Welcome back to Beautifully Complex everyone. I'm excited to have
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: with me for this episode. In this conversation doctor Wendy Grolnick,
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: and we're going to talk about motivation. A lot of
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: the myths that we have and believe about motivation that
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  Speaker 3: society I think is perpetuated for a long time, and
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  Speaker 3: doctor Grolnick is here to bust some of those myths
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  Speaker 3: for us and help us to really tap into what
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: actually helps our kids with motivation. I'm so excited, Doctor Grolnick.
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: Will you start though, by just letting everybody know who
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: you are and what you do.
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  Speaker 1: Sure, thank you so much for having me today for
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  Speaker 1: this interesting conversation. I'm a professor of psychology at Clark
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: University in Worcestern, Massachusetts. I've been studying motivation for oh
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: my gosh, almost forty years. I teach courses in motivation
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: and I do research on parenting and children's motivation.
• 1:48
  Speaker 4: So really happy to be here.
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, do you want to start by kind of defining
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: what motivation is? I think that we have assumptions and
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  Speaker 3: we have these stereotypes. I want to really drill down
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: to what is at the core of motivation.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely.
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  Speaker 1: So motivation is kind of the energy that we bring
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  Speaker 1: to things. It's the energy and where we direct it,
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  Speaker 1: and it's experienced as kind of this like wanting or
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: urge or something like that. But really importantly, motivation and
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: motives are internal experiences, and so when we think about,
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: you know, motivating people, motivating kids, we really can't motivate people.
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  Speaker 1: We can get people to do things. We can persuade
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  Speaker 1: and coerce, we can we can pay people and get
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: them to do things, but motivation is an internal experience,
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  Speaker 1: and so we can't really motivate people. We can set
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: the conditions under which they're most likely to be motivated,
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: but we can't actually get in there and make that happen.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: People make that happen for themselves.
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: Right right, Yeah, And teaching that, I think is something
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  Speaker 3: we don't do very often. We don't teach. You know,
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: when something is important, here are some strategies that you
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: might use to help you get it done right. And
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: what you're talking about too reminds me of creating opportunities
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: for motivation. We talk a lot here on Beautifully Complex
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: about creating opportunities for success, and I think creating opportunities
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  Speaker 3: for motivation falls into that as well. Would you agree?
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  Speaker 4: Oh?
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  Speaker 1: I love that absolutely, And you know, just to expand
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: upon that, what opportunities we want to create need to
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: match what people are doing when they're motivated or what's
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: underlying that. And we actually talk about three needs that
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: underlie motivation. A need to feel autonomous or like we're
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: kind of behind what we do. We just don't do
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: well when we feel pushed or coerced, or feel like
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: we're doing something because we have to. I need to
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: feel competent, like we're effective. And I need to feel
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: connected or related to other people and valued and loved.
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: And when we set these conditions.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: Or I love your word, these opportunities, they are opportunities
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  Speaker 1: for people to feel this way and experience this.
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  Speaker 4: I love that.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that. Connection is part of this because
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  Speaker 3: we know from a biological standpoint that connection helps our
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: nervous system to feel settled. It gets our thinking brain
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  Speaker 3: fully online and working, and so again it's like setting
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: up that ideal opportunity, that ideal environment for success in
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: different modalities, right in environment, in biology, and you know
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: even like self esteem and self confidence emotionally as well. Yes, absolutely, yeah, amazing.
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  Speaker 3: What would you say is the number one most common
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: misconsumption or myth about motivation?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, So, as we talked about before, we just wrote
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  Speaker 1: a book about ten myths about motivation that a lot
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  Speaker 1: of people have. And the one I feel like is
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  Speaker 1: the most important or my favorite in terms of the
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  Speaker 1: importance of busting is this idea that only some people
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  Speaker 1: are motivated, that we have people that are motivated people,
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  Speaker 1: and that we have people that are unmotivated people. And
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  Speaker 1: that's just not consistent with science. There's no evidence that
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  Speaker 1: that's a trait that people come into the world with
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  Speaker 1: or just have. Motivation is very dependent on people's interests,
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  Speaker 1: on what domain it is. People are motivated in some
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  Speaker 1: domains and not other domains, you know, for school, for sports,
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  Speaker 1: for connecting with other people, whatever it is, and very
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  Speaker 1: specific to the task that you're doing and very specific
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  Speaker 1: to the environment you're in. We can be really motivated
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  Speaker 1: in some environments and really unmotivated in other environments.
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  Speaker 4: So we really need to bust that myth.
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  Speaker 1: When we see people that look like they're not motivated,
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: they're actually not doing the thing we hope they're doing.
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  Speaker 1: They're actually they could be doing something else and be
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  Speaker 1: doing it very persistently, its video, whatever it is that
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  Speaker 1: interests them. We make this attribution that it's a quality
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  Speaker 1: of a person, and then when we say, oh, this
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  Speaker 1: is an unmotivated person, then we treat them like an
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  Speaker 1: unmotivated person. We start sort of pushing and pressuring them
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  Speaker 1: and putting contingencies and threats on them, and then they
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  Speaker 1: pull back because we have a need to feel like
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  Speaker 1: we're autonomous, We have a need to feel like we're
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  Speaker 1: behind our actions, and nobody feels good when they feel coerced,
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  Speaker 1: and then we sort of create a self fulfilling prophecy there,
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  Speaker 1: so busting that myth and saying instead of looking at
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: someone and saying, oh, well, that's not a motivated person,
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  Speaker 1: what can I do to light fire under them? We
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: want to say, Okay, this is a motivated person. They
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: have needs for autonomy, competence, and relatedness. What is getting
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: in the way, what need is being forwarded at that moment?
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: And how can I set up an environment to tap.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: Into those wonderful motivations that exist that just aren't manifesting
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: in this situation. Yeah.
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: I want to pack the idea of pressure a little
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  Speaker 3: bit more because this is something that we talk about
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  Speaker 3: a lot in parenting nerdivergent kids. Because what I have
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  Speaker 3: found is that pressure is a motivation killer. It will
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  Speaker 3: turn off motivation completely, it neutralizes it. And culturally we
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  Speaker 3: have decided that pressure is how we get people to
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  Speaker 3: do things, and it's actually the opposite.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: Right, Yes, I just love the way you've said that,
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: absolutely so. Right, if we have this need to feel
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: autonomous or to feel choiceful behind what we do, as
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  Speaker 1: soon as we get pressured or pushed to do something,
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  Speaker 1: we're doing it for that reason, and we have this
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  Speaker 1: sense that we're doing it because we have to because
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  Speaker 1: to meet this reward or to meet this contingency, or
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: to not lose our privilege or whatever it is. And
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: that pressure can undermine any enjoyment we have of the activity,
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: because part of enjoying things is feeling like we're doing
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: because we want to.
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  Speaker 4: And then it also keeps people from moving toward a
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: value for whatever it is you're trying to help them do.
• 8:09
  Speaker 4: They will be stuck in that place of doing it
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  Speaker 4: for the reward and right it doesn't feel good. And
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  Speaker 4: as soon as that pressure goes away, as soon as
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: that deadline or push or continues, he goes, well, you're
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: not going to do that anymore. So I totally agree.
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  Speaker 1: And there are better ways to help people to be
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  Speaker 1: motivated or to set those conditions we should say, rather
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: than putting on the pressure.
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll talk about setting those conditions in a minute,
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  Speaker 3: but I want to touch on a couple more myths
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  Speaker 3: before we do that, because I think there are a
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: couple more really that stand out for our parents and families,
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  Speaker 3: and one of those is rewards. Yeah, and so often,
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: especially in the autistic community, with therapies like ABA and
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: the true sense of how they were structured. It was
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: you do this thing, you get this reward, and there's
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: no autonomy, there's no looking at the underlying reasons why
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  Speaker 3: that behavior is hard for that individual to be more
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  Speaker 3: helpful and make it that individual choice or to even
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  Speaker 3: build the skills or whatever is going on there. Can
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  Speaker 3: you talk about whether rewards are motivating or not and
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  Speaker 3: what we might do differently.
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  Speaker 4: Sure, yeah, rewards.
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  Speaker 1: It's kind of a nuanced thing in terms of rewards,
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  Speaker 1: because I mean, the thing is you can get people
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: to do things with rewards, and so they kind of
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: work in a certain sense, but as we were talking about,
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  Speaker 1: they can really zap any kind of intrinsic motivation you
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: have and also keep people from moving toward a value
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  Speaker 1: for things so that they regulate their own behavior. And
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  Speaker 1: I really agree with you that there's been this idea
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  Speaker 1: that for certain eurodiverse populations, and the one that we've
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: worked with the most as kids with ADHD, that it's
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: okay for them to not have autonomous motivation to kind
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  Speaker 1: of reward them and reward them and set up these
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  Speaker 1: contingencies and that's how we manage, we manage. But in
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: our research, we've actually found that having this sense of
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  Speaker 1: importance of doing things, of being behind what you do,
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  Speaker 1: especialially more important for the kids with ADHD because they
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  Speaker 1: do get a lot more of this control. So I
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  Speaker 1: think that we all need to feel that we are
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  Speaker 1: behind what we do, and we all need reasons for
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  Speaker 1: doing it, and we, as you said, we need to
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: take people's perspective and understand what is getting in the
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: way of their feeling motivated to do something and setting
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: up those conditions that sort of thwart those barriers. And
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: if we don't do that, you know, we get short
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: term fixes, but not long term motivation.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, let's touch on the difference between intrinsic and
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  Speaker 3: extrinsic motivation real quick before we move on to me.
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: It's internal versus external. Do you want to maybe define
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: them a little bit more for everyone?
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  Speaker 4: Sure?
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  Speaker 1: Sure, Yeah, there's a lot of confusion about those terms.
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  Speaker 1: So for us, intrinsic motivation is things that we do
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  Speaker 1: for the fun and love of doing them themselves. There's
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  Speaker 1: no thing we're trying to do. We're just rock climbing
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  Speaker 1: and enjoying the moment or in our gardens, you know,
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: just having the sense of pleasure of watching things grow.
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  Speaker 1: So the Intrinsic motivation is things we do for the
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  Speaker 1: fun and pleasure of the activity itself, and extrinsic motivation
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  Speaker 1: is kind of everything else, doing things for some reason
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: outside of the pleasure of the activity itself. And so
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  Speaker 1: there's a full range of extrinsic motivations, and extrinsic motivation
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  Speaker 1: is not bad in any way. So it can range
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: from though, doing things because we have to because of
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: a reward or contingency, or a punishment or a threat,
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: and that feels really control. On the other end, doing
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: things because we want to. We're behind them. We may
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: not think they're fun, but they're valuable to us. We
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: can see that learning how to do that math problem
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: can help us to know whether we can how we
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: can save for our new bike, or we can see
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: that doing this homework is going to help us to
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: understand the things that we do in class. So extrinsic
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: motivations that are based on a sense of value or
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: importance are really important because not everything we do, and
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: certainly not everything we ask people to do, is going
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: to be fun. So we want to help people move
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: from doing things because they have to to doing things
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: because they want to because they see the value or
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: importance even though there may never be fun, And that's
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: sort of our challenge.
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think helping our kids see that value
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: sometimes sometimes they need a conversation or a little bit
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: of information right to help them make those connections and
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: so that it's more of a choice for them and
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: less of us making a command.
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: Exactly.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: They may not automatically know that, and it really starts
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: with taking their perspective and understanding where they're coming from.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: You know, even if we don't agree with them, if
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: they believe or their experiences that math is useless, then
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: we want to understand. Okay, I get it. You see
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: math as useless, you think it's a complete waste of
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: time for you to do it. Let's start there, you
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: know so so, and then moving on to like you said,
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: a conversation.
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I've had that math conversation with my own kid
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: a million times. We made it through. He graduated, He
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: did the math enough, but man, he did not get
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: why he needed to calculate things by hand. That we
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: have computers and calculators that will do it for us
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: really quickly, Like why do I have to do this?
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: And you know, sometimes I think those connections just don't
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: make sense to some of our kids, and that's okay. Like,
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: we also have to take into account the individual kids
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: that we're working with, right, They're going to have different
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: things that make sense to them that create either extrinsic
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: or intrinsic motivation. I think that's really important to you
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: write that individualization.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, there are some things, like you said, I really
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: agree with you that you know you can give them
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: your sense of rationales for why they're doing this and
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: give them the importance and they will not agree. So
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: what you can do, though, you can still do the
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: best you can to understand their perspective, give them as
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: much choice as possible in doing it, give them as
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: much say as you can in setting up the parameters
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: around it. So there are things you can do to
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: help people feel more autonomous, you know, just not resorting
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: to okay, well then just just do it. We can
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: still tap into motivation as best we can if we
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: understand those needs.
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: What would you say to a parent who says, my
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: kid is not intrinsically motivated period full stop, my kid
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: does not have intrinsic motivation, Because I hear this sometimes.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's nothing that they do that's fun for them,
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: that they do just for the fun and beauty of it.
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: Is that what you're saying?
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you know, when we struggle with our
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: kids with things like homework, for instance, because this is
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: a battle, right, and we talk about, okay, well we
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: have to make connections with strengths or interests or you know,
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: how do we help them to gain some motivation to
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: do it? And sometimes parents have this belief that and
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: I think this speaks to that first myth that you
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: were talking about, as though it's an individual characteristic and
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: some people have it and some don't. But how do
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: you help people understand that and to accept that everybody
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: can have intrinsic motivation?
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess the message is that, yes, we all
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: have it. We all have a need to feel autonomous,
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: competent and connected to people and the content of what
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: our interests are. You know, this first from person to person,
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: and perhaps they just haven't found that yet. And what
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: we want to do is, you know, be patient and
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: look for cues of things that interest kids that they
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: talk about that they do, and capitalize on those sorts
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: of things and have conversations about what they might try.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: So I wouldn't give up on what those interests are.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: They're there, but they can be very subtle things, and
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: we have to just be really open to what those
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: things might be because they're not necessarily things that we
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: think kids should want to do. They could be something
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: pretty unusual. And so just tapping into that and following
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: up on it and providing those opportunities and giving the
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: message that you know, there's so many things we're asking
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: you to do that aren't fun, and we want to
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: make sure that you do what's fun for you and
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: connect on that m.
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: And find ways to make things fun. I think that's
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: a skill that we need to teach children also, is
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: find ways to make things as fun as possible, or
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: you know, I always think about with motivation the example
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: of doing taxes, because I don't think there's a person
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: on the planet who enjoys doing their taxes. I can't
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: wrap my head around it if they do right. But
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: we do things too, like I always have a giant
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: bowl of ice cream after I do my taxes, Like
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: I do something to acknowledge that I need some injection
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: of something besides just the stress of doing taxes right.
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: And so it's a skill that I think is valuable
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: to be able to do this for yourself. Yeah, to
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: be able to find ways to get through things that
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: maybe aren't preferred because they are important, right, It's an important.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: Skill exactly, and parents have a really nice role in
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: that again, just starting with acknowledging people's, you know, our
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: kids' feelings about doing certain things and even if we
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: don't agree with it, being there with them with that,
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: and when the kids feel understood in that way, they're
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: just going to be much more open to what you
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: have to say about why things need to get done
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: or how things need to get done, and working together
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: to figure out ways where they can feel the most
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: autonomy as they can.
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: Mmmmm. I love that autonomy is such a present part
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: of this conversation about motivation because it's so important too
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: for anxious kids, for even building self esteem and confidence
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: and fulfillment. Like it's really a valuable part of everything
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: that we want for.
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: Our kids exactly.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: And I think sometimes that word gets used in different ways.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: Some people use the word autonomy as well. They have
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: to do things on their own. For us, that's independence,
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: and people don't have a need for independence, and independence
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: is a nice thing sometimes but people have a need
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: for autonomy, which is to feel like they are behind
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: what they do or choiceful and not pushed in, you know.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: So if we think about it that way, then we're
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: thinking about how can we not leave kids alone to
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: do their things on their own, how can we support
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: their autonomy. Autonomys are very active things, understanding where kids
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: are coming from, giving them choices, giving them reasons and
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: importance for things, and it's a very active thing that
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: parents do to help kids feel autonomous. So for me, yes,
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: competence is really important too. Of course, we don't do
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: well when we feel like we're not effective and we
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: don't feel well, we feel like we're not connected. But
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: helping people feel this sense that they have some choice,
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: it's really crucial motiveationally.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: It feels like the drive piece of motivation, or at
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: least part of it. I think it propels us forward.
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: If you do feel like you have choice and you
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: are working towards something that you chose or you want,
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: that to me creates that internal drive that helps to
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: push us forward.
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: Exactly right.
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, let's talk about some strategies. What do we do right?
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: We understand a little bit better motivation. Now, what can
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: parents do to really be effective when it feels like
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: our kids aren't motivated?
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: So connected to those three needs or three aspects of
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: the environment or three things that we can do, we've
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: been talking about supporting autonomy, taking people's perspectives and empathizing
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: with where they are, giving them some choices about how
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: they do things, working together to problem solve strategies, voting
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: the kids' voices, and how to go about things. The
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: second thing that we need to do is to provide structure.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: Structure helps people to feel competent. If we don't know
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: the rules of the game or how to be successful,
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: we're not going to be very motivated. So setting up
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: clear guidelines and expectations, providing feedback on how people are
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: doing all those things help people to feel competent. So kids,
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: you know, knowing what expectations are at home about how
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: homework gets done or when it gets on, all those things,
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: and then setting up an environment where there's just a
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: whole lot of respect and love for who kids are
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: and what interests them and so forth. Just setting that
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: sense of I love you no matter what, and so
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: these things go together.
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: Though, So we want to set up structure.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: We want there to be clear expectations and guidelines for
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: homework or stores or whatever it is. But the important
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: thing also is putting those together. So when we do that,
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: we want to enlist kids' opinions and input into that. So,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: for example, we're in this situation where I'm always bugging
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: you about the homework and getting it started, and I'm
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: sure that doesn't feel good to you. I'm sure it's
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: so annoying to have me, you know, bugging you about that.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: You know, let's kind of put our heads together to
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: figure out what we can do to set it up
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: so that I don't have to bug you anymore and
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: you get the time to be on your game. And
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: structure is really important, but it has to be conveyed
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: in a way that also feels like it's not imposed
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: upon you and pressure. But you're a part of creating
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: that structure. You know, in our lives too as adults,
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: when we're part of creating the structures that are around us.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: We all have rules and expectations and guidelines. There's a
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: way to do your taxes, but if we're enlisted in
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: how that gets done, we're just much more likely to
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: experience it.
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: As gee, that's just the way the world.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: Is, rather than people are pushing me all the time,
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: and I want to push back, and you know, I'm
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: going to.
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: Do the least I can do because it's so pressuring
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: to me.
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: And especially with teenagers, said, the more we tell them
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: to do something, the less they want to do it.
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: I remember my own son who's nerdivergent, you know, one
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: day he finally said to me at some point in
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: high school, like, Mom, why do you not understand that
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: the more that you pressure me, the less I can
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: do it and the less I want to do It's
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: like light bulb, right, And it made an impact because
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: what I was doing was spewing my own stuff on
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: my kid. I am a box checker. I just want
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: to get things done and over with. That is not
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: the kid I have, right, And so for me, I
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: needed him to do it, But what I was doing
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: was actually physiologically making it less able to be done
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: and making him not want to be around me, not
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: want to talk to me, not want to live.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: So those are just such important lessons we have to,
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: as you said earlier, like we have to be listening
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: to the signals from our kids. What is going to
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: help them find that motivation. But that pressure piece, yeah,
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: I mean I talk about it so much now ever
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: since he sent that to me several years ago, I
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: just thought, Wow, that that was profound. I wish I
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: had known that ten years earlier. Right, I could have
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: stopped doing that a long time ago. But it really
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: kills motivation, and especially I think in older kids.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: Wow, that's fairly powerful that he said that to you,
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: and good for him. And I have a similar story
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: where one of my kids said, who had read my
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: book on Pressured Parents, and said, Mom, you're doing exactly
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: what you said to doing your book.
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know it is understandable. You know, we
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: want the best for our kids, and you.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: Know, we see opportunities for them or we see opportunities
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: going by for them, and our intentions are so good
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: to make sure that they get everything they can, and
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: there's so much pressure on us as parents, and so
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: it's understandable we sometimes feel like that pressure kind of
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: it comes from above us, and then we pressure our kids.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: We feel pressured, and then we pressure our kids, and
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: it's kind of having this I talk about it sometimes
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: as like a kind of faith in our kids and
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: who they are and that they will get there in
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: their way without us pushing it and knowing that that
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: will backfire. But it's faith. It's hard to come by
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: sometimes when we're really worried. Yeah.
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think maybe the first step for our
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: parents who are listening is to really brainstorm ways that
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: you can help to foster autonomy. I think that's such
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: a permeating skill and sense and feeling for our kids.
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: That really changes everything, and there's so many ways that
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: we can weave that into everyday life. So I love that.
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: Before we close, I would love to just ask you
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: what does the phrase beautifully complex mean to you?
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: Just love that. I love that phrase.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: The kids are complex, they're individuals, and the diversity in
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: their interests, in the way they do things, and who
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: they are is something we should celebrate and as beautiful
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: as hard as it can be sometimes. I love your
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: term and your goal in working with families.
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: Thank you. Yeah, I love that perspective. For me, it's
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: about that it can be hard, but that it's also beautiful.
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: It is part of the journey, you know. Difficulty is
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: part of the journey. But we have to make room
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: for joy, you know, if we don't like, if we
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: just live in that very pressurized culture, we're going to
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: miss all of it. We're just going to see the
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: difficulty and breeze right past it. So yeah, thank you
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: for sharing that perspective. I want to make sure that
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: everybody knows how to connect with you and learn more
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: from you, and we're going to link everything up in
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: the show notes PARENTINGADHD and Autism dot Com Slash two
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: eight four for episode two hundred and eighty four. But
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: if you just want to share real quick, where they
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: can find you online and where they can find your book.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, our new book is Motivation MythBusters, Science based strategies
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: to boost motivation and yourself and others. And we talk
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: a lot about alternatives to a wars and how to
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: praise and all kinds of things that are relevant to
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: our discussion today. And hopefully it's a fun way to
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: learn about motivation because it is these myths that it's
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: nobody's followed.
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: They're out there, out there in the world.
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: So yeah, the book is available on Amazon and on
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: the American Psychological Association website. I'm at Clark University. My
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: email is w Brolnick at Clerk dot edu. Happy to
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: hear from people and available that way as well.
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much for the work that you're doing
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: and being here and sharing some of your wisdom and
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: your time and your insights with us. It will change lives.
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: Every conversation that we have, I feel like will change
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: somebody's life somewhere and that's so amazing.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. It was such
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: a pleasure.
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: Dot to you.
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: Thank you you too. I'll see everybody in the next episode.
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: Take good care.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast. If
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share, and don't
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: forget to check out my online courses and parent coaching
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: at PARENTINGADHD and Autism dot com and at The Behavior
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: Revolution dot com.