Latest / Open Tabs / 🎧 Workplace witchcraft & the rise of cute AI

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🎧 Workplace witchcraft & the rise of cute AI · Open Tabs

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Hi, guys.
0:01
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Thursday's Open Tabs,
0:04
SPEAKER_01: our twice-weekly convo where we talk about things taking up space in our tabs,
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SPEAKER_01: our feeds, and our brains.
0:11
SPEAKER_01: Hi, Melissa.
0:11
SPEAKER_01: Hi, Megan.
0:12
SPEAKER_01: Hi.
0:13
SPEAKER_01: Hello.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: Okay, very busy Thursday, so jumping straight into it.
0:20
SPEAKER_01: First topic is very fun, and I'm very excited to talk about this.
0:24
SPEAKER_01: This gem comes from Melissa,
0:27
SPEAKER_01: and it's an article from Goop about the rise of workplace witchcraft.
0:33
SPEAKER_01: Very fun and very Halloween spooky season.
0:36
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so what does this mean?
0:38
SPEAKER_01: Executive women,
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SPEAKER_01: so high-powered women,
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SPEAKER_01: they talk to women in finance,
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SPEAKER_01: fashion,
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SPEAKER_01: Hollywood,
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SPEAKER_01: are increasingly turning to astrology, tarot,
0:49
SPEAKER_01: and other intuitive practices to help navigate their careers
0:54
SPEAKER_01: and make I'm very excited to pick your brains about this.
0:58
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so go for it.
1:26
SPEAKER_02: Here's what I'll say.
1:27
SPEAKER_02: This is what I feel like.
1:30
SPEAKER_02: What I think of manifestation is sort of like meditation as a wellness practice
1:36
SPEAKER_02: and just being intentional about your decisions that you make in your life,
1:43
SPEAKER_02: whether it's personal or it's professional.
1:45
SPEAKER_02: I also really believe that personal and professional are interconnected.
1:49
SPEAKER_02: It's not one and different.
1:52
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, so the point being is that That kind of thinking was not the norm
1:57
SPEAKER_02: when I was rising up in college and going into my career back in
2:03
SPEAKER_02: the early 2000s-ish, 2006-ish.
2:08
SPEAKER_02: It was way more structured and linear,
2:12
SPEAKER_02: and it felt like you were climbing a ladder as opposed to thinking holistically
2:15
SPEAKER_02: about your life and thinking, okay, well,
2:17
SPEAKER_02: if I become a doctor, for example, any decision you make, Compromise is something.
2:26
SPEAKER_02: It's time spent.
2:28
SPEAKER_02: If you make this decision,
2:30
SPEAKER_02: how does that impact your quality of life and the way you spend time that's not
2:35
SPEAKER_02: with work?
2:36
SPEAKER_02: I think that's very elder millennial.
2:40
SPEAKER_02: I'm curious to hear from you guys in your timing of when you went through all this,
2:47
SPEAKER_02: how it impacted you.
2:50
SPEAKER_02: Upon starting M.T.
2:51
SPEAKER_02: Deco, In 2018,
2:54
SPEAKER_02: this was like a little bit on the early end of when like manifestation
2:57
SPEAKER_02: and stuff kind of started taking hold and like it really resonated with me
3:02
SPEAKER_02: because I felt like, you know, I...
3:05
SPEAKER_02: This was pre-COVID.
3:06
SPEAKER_02: I felt like I'd been in a corporate structure and I was on a clear path and I needed
3:11
SPEAKER_02: to get off that train.
3:13
SPEAKER_02: And so for me at the time,
3:15
SPEAKER_02: the best way to do that in order to have control over my time in life was
3:19
SPEAKER_02: to create my own company, which is not like an easy decision or anything.
3:23
SPEAKER_02: And like, I think it is for me.
3:26
SPEAKER_02: Is it for everyone?
3:27
SPEAKER_02: No.
3:30
SPEAKER_02: I do think now,
3:31
SPEAKER_02: post-COVID,
3:32
SPEAKER_02: there's a lot more conversation around work from home,
3:35
SPEAKER_02: a little bit more work flexibility, just in culture than there was at the time.
3:41
SPEAKER_02: So all of that being said,
3:43
SPEAKER_02: this idea of like,
3:45
SPEAKER_02: Even just doing practices like grounding where you're walking around your feet on
3:49
SPEAKER_02: the earth or you're looking at astrology and whatnot,
3:53
SPEAKER_02: I think that it can't hurt in your decision making.
3:57
SPEAKER_02: In fact,
3:58
SPEAKER_02: if anything to give you an awareness of something or consideration or whatever
4:04
SPEAKER_02: in how you make decisions, I think it's helpful.
4:08
SPEAKER_02: I'm curious to hear Megan's think on this too, but I think women...
4:16
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I want to say maternal, maybe, but more of a feminine approach to work.
4:23
SPEAKER_02: I think women want that.
4:24
SPEAKER_02: I think women are empathetic.
4:28
SPEAKER_02: I remember I had a great boss who cried with me at work, and that was okay.
4:35
SPEAKER_02: For all intents and purposes, you're not supposed to do that.
4:38
SPEAKER_02: There's sort of a more masculine approach to,
4:40
SPEAKER_02: again, corporate work and how you behave and all of this.
4:43
SPEAKER_02: I had another boss that was like, I want to actually be a boss.
4:48
SPEAKER_02: I want to be a female boss.
4:49
SPEAKER_02: I want to be relatable and understand that the personal professional is interconnected.
4:57
SPEAKER_02: I think that this movement is related to that.
5:00
SPEAKER_02: It empowers women in power to Come to the table with a more,
5:06
SPEAKER_02: like, empathetic, quote-unquote female sort of view of an approach to work.
5:12
SPEAKER_02: It's like tools that help sort of round out the edges of,
5:16
SPEAKER_02: like, the more masculine, like, structure of, like, how things should be.
5:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I completely agree.
5:24
SPEAKER_00: And when I was graduating college, it was during the era of Lean In.
5:28
SPEAKER_00: So I read Sheryl Sandberg's Lean In,
5:30
SPEAKER_00: and that has gotten a lot of pushback,
5:32
SPEAKER_00: especially in recent years, as kind of everything Facebook has.
5:37
SPEAKER_00: But kind of the big thesis of that book is like,
5:40
SPEAKER_00: this is how men are successful in the workplace, and you need to do what the men do.
5:46
SPEAKER_00: I don't necessarily take that.
5:49
SPEAKER_00: I don't take that thesis with me into the work that I do,
5:53
SPEAKER_00: but I did take a lot of the lessons of like,
5:55
SPEAKER_00: what would a man do in this situation into my career?
5:59
SPEAKER_00: And I feel like I saw I didn't want to handle things like men handle things.
6:03
SPEAKER_00: And so totally aligned with you of like, what's a more feminine approach to work?
6:07
SPEAKER_00: And I think astrology and tarot and all of that So I think astrology
6:11
SPEAKER_00: and tarot gives you a language to kind of validate some of those instincts
6:15
SPEAKER_00: and ground it in something that feels slightly more tangible than just,
6:18
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, I have a strong feeling about this.
6:34
SPEAKER_00: That allows women, like you were saying, to feel empowered to make decisions.
6:38
SPEAKER_00: And it really is,
6:39
SPEAKER_00: especially in more female spaces,
6:42
SPEAKER_00: Super Embrace,
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SPEAKER_00: like the fashion industry is obsessed with astrology right now,
6:46
SPEAKER_00: moving towards tarot.
6:48
SPEAKER_00: I think it was Jonathan Anderson who posted at the beginning of
6:50
SPEAKER_00: the year his tarot spread for the year.
6:53
SPEAKER_00: And so this is definitely, I think, becoming more of a thing.
6:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm on the West Coast in LA,
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SPEAKER_00: though, where this is so woo-woo and everyone's ready to embrace all of that.
7:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm curious,
7:06
SPEAKER_00: from your more East Coast sensibilities,
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SPEAKER_00: my concern is I don't talk about this stuff at work with people
7:12
SPEAKER_00: because I do feel like it makes people see you as less serious.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: If you're like, oh,
7:16
SPEAKER_00: my tarot reading today,
7:17
SPEAKER_00: or well,
7:18
SPEAKER_00: astrology,
7:19
SPEAKER_00: the most I'll go is if people are having technical difficulties,
7:22
SPEAKER_00: I'll be like, Mercury's in retrograde.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: But I don't really want to lead with the spirituality of it all
7:28
SPEAKER_00: because I do think it causes people to see you as less serious in
7:31
SPEAKER_00: a professional space.
7:32
SPEAKER_00: So I'm curious what you guys think about that.
7:36
SPEAKER_01: I agree with that last point.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: I feel like people, and it's usually women, will be like, oh, what's your sign?
7:44
SPEAKER_01: We talk about that
7:45
SPEAKER_02: on calls.
7:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
7:47
SPEAKER_02: That comes up often.
7:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:49
SPEAKER_01: I feel like it's like fully made it to mainstream, at least with women.
7:54
SPEAKER_01: And you can chat about that in a professional environment.
7:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:58
SPEAKER_01: While you're like waiting for people to join the meeting.
8:02
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I think like tarot, I guess it's too emergent.
8:07
SPEAKER_01: I would not talk about it on like a professional call with a client.
8:12
SPEAKER_01: But I do think, like,
8:14
SPEAKER_01: astrology and even manifesting are, like,
8:17
SPEAKER_01: mainstream enough and have been in the culture enough for a while now
8:23
SPEAKER_01: where it's acceptable to talk about.
8:27
SPEAKER_01: What is interesting, like, East Coast, thinking about, like, the high-powered women.
8:33
SPEAKER_01: I think about my aunt who works in
8:36
SPEAKER_02: New York City.
8:43
SPEAKER_01: She definitely manifests.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: She's very into journaling and she's gotten me into journaling.
8:48
SPEAKER_01: I'm not as into it as her,
8:50
SPEAKER_01: but like she manifests via journaling,
8:52
SPEAKER_01: but she would not call it manifesting as like, you know, a boomer.
8:57
SPEAKER_01: Maybe she's Gen X, like very professional buttoned up woman in finance.
9:05
SPEAKER_01: And I imagine she would never bring that up.
9:08
SPEAKER_01: In the office, her work environment is very male-dominated.
9:12
SPEAKER_01: And she, it has been her entire career.
9:14
SPEAKER_01: And she's very aware of that.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting because that's never been my, marketing is very female.
9:25
SPEAKER_01: And social media, it's all women.
9:27
SPEAKER_01: I think like men are in the minority.
9:30
SPEAKER_01: Usually it's like a group of women on calls and like one or two guys.
9:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I feel like it's something that women on the East Coast are doing more
9:41
SPEAKER_01: in their personal time after work and then not bringing it up in the office.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: But what is interesting,
9:49
SPEAKER_01: this article talks about my aunt is very into career coaches and like has
9:56
SPEAKER_01: a mentorship and all of that.
9:59
SPEAKER_01: And this article there, they talk about her name's Cardzie B.
10:04
SPEAKER_01: And she is an executive witch.
10:07
SPEAKER_01: And she is basically like a career coach for these high-powered executive women.
10:15
SPEAKER_01: And she has a program.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: It's $1,000 a month.
10:19
SPEAKER_01: And these women executives pay for her to do their astrology charts,
10:25
SPEAKER_01: tarot, and help them navigate big career decisions more spiritually.
10:33
SPEAKER_01: Very interesting.
10:34
SPEAKER_02: I, like, I'm not surprised
10:36
SPEAKER_01: by that at
10:36
SPEAKER_02: all.
10:37
SPEAKER_02: Because I think that, and, like,
10:40
SPEAKER_02: even hearing Megan talk about Lean In,
10:43
SPEAKER_02: you know,
10:43
SPEAKER_02: from Sheryl Sandberg,
10:46
SPEAKER_02: that book is a guidebook for navigating an existing patriarchal structure for women.
10:53
SPEAKER_02: So it's like, how do you function in that?
10:55
SPEAKER_02: And, like, you have to play their game.
10:57
SPEAKER_02: Here's the rulebook for the game.
10:59
SPEAKER_02: Whereas I think with this And I just think that, like,
11:03
SPEAKER_02: culture has changed in a way where we think about career and your personal life
11:08
SPEAKER_02: as one thing.
11:10
SPEAKER_02: And especially women, like, you know,
11:32
SPEAKER_02: Like, if you go really hard in a certain career,
11:35
SPEAKER_02: like, there are certain things you have to, like, compromise, right?
11:38
SPEAKER_02: More than men, right?
11:39
SPEAKER_02: Like, at NBC, there used to be this term called news nuns.
11:43
SPEAKER_02: Like, women that, like, just preach to the, you know, the church of news.
11:50
SPEAKER_02: And, like,
11:51
SPEAKER_02: they gave up marriage and children because the career is so rigorous and hard,
11:58
SPEAKER_02: and it's hard to have both.
12:00
SPEAKER_02: And so I think that, like,
12:01
SPEAKER_02: I can almost bet you that, like,
12:03
SPEAKER_02: the women who are hiring this executive witch,
12:07
SPEAKER_02: I'm sure they are, like,
12:09
SPEAKER_02: maybe I'm seeing success in my career,
12:11
SPEAKER_02: but I'm feeling like other parts of my life are lacking or,
12:15
SPEAKER_02: like, other things that I wanted to accomplish, you know?
12:18
SPEAKER_02: And so, like, they're turning to something.
12:20
SPEAKER_02: You know,
12:21
SPEAKER_02: it was interesting also,
12:21
SPEAKER_02: like, last night I went to an executive, it was, um, A book talk with an author.
12:26
SPEAKER_02: Her name is Dr. Shefali.
12:29
SPEAKER_02: And she came out with two books last year called Raising Conscious Sons
12:34
SPEAKER_02: and Raising Conscious Daughters.
12:36
SPEAKER_02: And so it was really interesting.
12:38
SPEAKER_02: Part of the conversation was like,
12:39
SPEAKER_02: why did you release two books simultaneously at the same time?
12:42
SPEAKER_02: What was that?
12:43
SPEAKER_02: And she's like, well,
12:45
SPEAKER_02: I just think at the end of the day,
12:48
SPEAKER_02: boys and girls,
12:50
SPEAKER_02: men and women,
12:51
SPEAKER_02: there's just like a She's like,
12:52
SPEAKER_02: of course,
12:53
SPEAKER_02: there's like all sorts of variants, but at the end of the day, like it's hormonal.
12:57
SPEAKER_02: And she's like,
12:58
SPEAKER_02: you know, women have like a lot more estrogen traditionally than men and vice versa.
13:05
SPEAKER_02: Men have more testosterone.
13:07
SPEAKER_02: And so like those hormones help like shape perception and whatever.
13:13
SPEAKER_02: So she's like,
13:14
SPEAKER_02: so women,
13:14
SPEAKER_02: like young girls and whatnot,
13:15
SPEAKER_02: like they can sense like,
13:18
SPEAKER_02: like a shift in a mood and like Face variants and a vibe change.
13:24
SPEAKER_02: The intuition that you were talking about, Emma, is actually a chemical thing.
13:32
SPEAKER_02: Our biology
13:33
SPEAKER_02: sets us up for that.
13:35
SPEAKER_02: The funny thing was the testosterone.
13:38
SPEAKER_02: She was like, boys, as much as they are moving all day, they are not moving enough.
13:44
SPEAKER_02: They need to be, like, running and moving and, like, constantly.
13:47
SPEAKER_02: She's like, even the way that, like, public schools are right now, boys are sitting too much.
13:51
SPEAKER_02: Like, they have to be outside and moving.
13:53
SPEAKER_02: I was like, oh, that's just so interesting.
13:54
SPEAKER_02: She's like, they have to be, like, achieving something, crushing something or whatever.
13:59
SPEAKER_02: And she's like,
13:59
SPEAKER_02: it's the difference of, like,
14:01
SPEAKER_02: Young girls coming into social media,
14:04
SPEAKER_02: they're looking at social media and they're scrolling and they're just looking
14:07
SPEAKER_02: for mirrors back of who themselves.
14:09
SPEAKER_02: They're like using all this to help define who they are.
14:12
SPEAKER_02: Like, oh, I'm a girl that likes sports or like I'm a girl that likes, I'm
14:18
SPEAKER_02: And she's like, and the boys are sucked into video games.
14:27
SPEAKER_02: And they're just like achieving and crushing and blah, blah, blah, blah.
14:30
SPEAKER_02: And it's like a different sort of like chemical path that they're put on.
14:34
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, all of which to say,
14:35
SPEAKER_02: it's like,
14:37
SPEAKER_02: I actually think when I saw this,
14:39
SPEAKER_02: I just got a giggle to myself and I think that this is great.
14:41
SPEAKER_02: And it's like if women in power are seeking other tools to help make decisions
14:47
SPEAKER_02: and they're thinking outside of the patriarchal structure that exists,
14:52
SPEAKER_02: maybe they'll change it.
14:53
SPEAKER_02: Great.
14:54
SPEAKER_02: Do something different because it's not great.
14:58
SPEAKER_02: It isn't.
14:59
SPEAKER_02: And that's why there are so many women who are not doing that path.
15:02
SPEAKER_01: It is interesting.
15:07
SPEAKER_01: I agree, Melissa.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: I feel like,
15:09
SPEAKER_01: but it's like,
15:10
SPEAKER_01: okay, I'm thinking like workplace witchcraft, like acting like this is a new thing.
15:17
SPEAKER_01: But I feel like men have always had like high powered executive men have always had
15:24
SPEAKER_01: like a guru, their go to guru.
15:29
SPEAKER_01: And that's, has always like, this is, this is not new.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: It's just women Are finding, like, leaning into different tools, maybe.
15:40
SPEAKER_01: Maybe these men executives weren't talking about astrology and tarot with their gurus.
15:46
SPEAKER_01: But I think of, like, Jay Shetty and, like, all these, like, more...
15:52
SPEAKER_01: It's the same thing.
15:54
SPEAKER_01: It's just a man is doing it.
15:57
SPEAKER_01: So maybe it's, like, workplace witches.
16:01
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
16:02
SPEAKER_01: I feel like there have been, like, workplace wizards maybe for...
16:07
SPEAKER_01: That is so smart.
16:09
SPEAKER_00: I also think part of the appeal of this is because men are so allergic to astrology
16:15
SPEAKER_00: and the term witches has been used to deride women that I feel like there's a bit
16:20
SPEAKER_00: of pleasure in reclaiming some of this in a form and in a space that men are in
16:25
SPEAKER_00: but they don't want to engage with.
16:27
SPEAKER_00: I love when we're on a call with the one man and we're talking about astrology
16:30
SPEAKER_00: and you can tell he's annoyed, but he's outnumbered.
16:32
SPEAKER_00: That's low-key kind of fun.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: So I think that this is also kind of a bit of resistance to
16:38
SPEAKER_00: the patriarchal structure as much as it is just leaning into femininity.
16:43
SPEAKER_00: It's also kind of saying,
16:44
SPEAKER_00: we're going to do this our way and we have control over this one thing
16:48
SPEAKER_00: that we know you guys don't like and we're going to kind of bring it into
16:52
SPEAKER_00: the workplace just to kind of assert ourselves a little bit.
16:55
SPEAKER_02: I am so obsessed with that.
16:57
SPEAKER_02: I think that's exactly,
16:58
SPEAKER_02: I think that, like, Emma,
17:00
SPEAKER_02: when you're, like,
17:01
SPEAKER_02: pulling out, like,
17:02
SPEAKER_02: stuff for this, like, you definitely have to, like, pull out Megan's quote there.
17:05
SPEAKER_02: Like, I think also, Emma,
17:09
SPEAKER_02: you're making me laugh with,
17:10
SPEAKER_02: like, the guru thing and, like, you know, like, coaches.
17:14
SPEAKER_02: Like, this is totally a space of, like, It's the art of rebranding.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: It's just like how it's the same thing.
17:22
SPEAKER_02: You know what has also been successfully totally rebranded in
17:25
SPEAKER_02: a totally different way are peptides?
17:27
SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's that big.
17:28
SPEAKER_02: Peptides are GLP-1.
17:31
SPEAKER_02: It can be and it can be big.
17:32
SPEAKER_02: But if somebody goes in and says,
17:34
SPEAKER_02: I bought a GLP-1 versus I take peptides,
17:37
SPEAKER_02: it's a completely different social acceptance.
17:40
SPEAKER_02: So it's like, I have a guru.
17:43
SPEAKER_02: I have a workplace witch.
17:44
SPEAKER_02: Oh.
17:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
17:47
SPEAKER_02: Or, like, I have a coach.
17:48
SPEAKER_02: You're right.
17:49
SPEAKER_01: Like, coach is totally, like, the same term, you know?
17:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:52
SPEAKER_01: But it's, like, I met with her career coach.
17:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, this is manifest.
17:58
SPEAKER_01: It's the same thing.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: It's the same thing.
18:00
SPEAKER_01: I know.
18:00
SPEAKER_01: It's the same thing.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean, yeah,
18:03
SPEAKER_01: this is just rebranding of like men have their gurus and their gut instincts
18:08
SPEAKER_01: and their career coaches.
18:10
SPEAKER_01: And with women, it's executive witches and intuition and manifesting.
18:16
SPEAKER_01: But it's the same thing.
18:18
SPEAKER_02: You have to ask your aunt.
18:20
SPEAKER_02: Send her this article.
18:21
SPEAKER_02: I'll send it to her and see what she thinks.
18:22
SPEAKER_02: I'm just curious for your POV on this.
18:24
SPEAKER_02: Like, would you do this?
18:25
SPEAKER_02: And I mean,
18:25
SPEAKER_02: maybe she wouldn't share that she would do it,
18:27
SPEAKER_02: but like, I would love Like, her take on it.
18:31
SPEAKER_02: Like, I just think in her,
18:33
SPEAKER_02: like, she's in such a, like, serious setting, like, finance New York City.
18:38
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, I'm curious.
18:40
SPEAKER_01: I suspect she would do it because she is quite spiritual.
18:45
SPEAKER_01: I think she needs an outlet because of how serious her job is.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: But I don't think she would ever talk about it in the workplace.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: But I think she would be down to do it.
18:57
SPEAKER_01: And I was also just going to
18:58
SPEAKER_02: say, too,
19:00
SPEAKER_02: I feel like this in general is just part of that larger movement
19:05
SPEAKER_02: of people seeking spirituality.
19:11
SPEAKER_02: Because sort of like the like downfall of like the church kind of structure
19:17
SPEAKER_02: that we were all like raised with and how people have sort
19:20
SPEAKER_02: of like rejected traditional or like traditional religion and
19:23
SPEAKER_02: then it's now how do you sort of like fill that cup for yourself and so I think
19:29
SPEAKER_02: that like I suspect that like Not witchcraft,
19:33
SPEAKER_02: but like astrology and tarot and like all of that is sort of like it's made
19:38
SPEAKER_02: a resurgence because it's something to turn to.
19:40
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
19:41
SPEAKER_01: You're totally right.
19:43
SPEAKER_01: And I'll hyperlink this when we post this tomorrow.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: But I have been seeing so many because I love Halloween and I love witchy vibes.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: So many like comparative edits to the ritual and I was raised Catholic.
20:00
SPEAKER_01: The ritualism that you see in the Catholic Church and then how similar it is to witchcraft.
20:06
SPEAKER_01: It's just there are male priests doing it in the church and witches,
20:11
SPEAKER_01: female witches doing it in witchcraft.
20:15
SPEAKER_01: But it's basically the same thing with potions and You have to send it to me.
20:21
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
20:43
SPEAKER_01: That is so very interesting.
20:45
SPEAKER_00: I also think that the American workplace could have kind of filled the void
20:50
SPEAKER_00: of religion, but because there's no career longevity, there's no path.
20:57
SPEAKER_00: And so I think that's also something that people are looking for,
21:00
SPEAKER_00: some semblance of I'm on a path, like you mentioned the career ladder.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: So it's like astrology and tarot, they kind of force you to deeply consider your path in life.
21:10
SPEAKER_00: As it relates to holistic versus just like your career.
21:13
SPEAKER_00: But I feel like if companies were better about giving people kind of a trajectory
21:18
SPEAKER_00: of this is what your life could look like within this organization,
21:21
SPEAKER_00: I think that they would be super responsive to that.
21:24
SPEAKER_00: And I think in the absence of that,
21:25
SPEAKER_00: they're looking for external validators like tarot and astrology.
21:30
SPEAKER_02: I mean, also, yes,
21:32
SPEAKER_02: to that point too, like,
21:33
SPEAKER_02: I think there's something to the fact that like,
21:36
SPEAKER_02: they're like, They've been around forever.
21:40
SPEAKER_02: They're old and there is structure over...
21:48
SPEAKER_02: They've withstood the test of time.
21:51
SPEAKER_02: And what is interesting too, I mean, we talked about this Whatever.
21:54
SPEAKER_02: But when you think about the world that the boomer generation was raised in,
22:00
SPEAKER_02: and it's not just career.
22:02
SPEAKER_02: It's not just marriage with kids.
22:05
SPEAKER_02: It's also a house.
22:08
SPEAKER_02: And it's like a car.
22:10
SPEAKER_02: They were born into a path of Much structure.
22:15
SPEAKER_02: Religion, too.
22:16
SPEAKER_02: Like, it was very, like, here is your, like, roadmap for success.
22:21
SPEAKER_02: And, like, if you think about it, all of those things have been eroded now.
22:27
SPEAKER_02: So, like, it's all eroded.
22:29
SPEAKER_02: Like, religion, like, every single thing.
22:32
SPEAKER_02: Even the economy.
22:33
SPEAKER_02: Like, everything.
22:33
SPEAKER_02: Like, there's nothing.
22:35
SPEAKER_02: It feels very quicksand.
22:39
SPEAKER_02: So, like,
22:40
SPEAKER_02: You know,
22:41
SPEAKER_02: as kids are coming up now,
22:43
SPEAKER_02: and then we put on this layer of AI,
22:45
SPEAKER_02: which is just this,
22:46
SPEAKER_02: like, straight-up mystery of, like, what's going to happen, you know?
22:53
SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's really, like, it's scary.
22:57
SPEAKER_02: Like, it feels very like there's nothing to, like, hold on to, you know?
23:02
SPEAKER_02: And I've talked about this with you guys, too,
23:04
SPEAKER_02: in my own, like,
23:06
SPEAKER_02: I was raised Catholic and now we are raising our kids Jewish and I have
23:13
SPEAKER_02: so many friends who like You know,
23:15
SPEAKER_02: we're coming from different religions,
23:17
SPEAKER_02: the parents, and then they don't do anything with the kids.
23:19
SPEAKER_02: Like, they're like, okay, well, it's negated.
23:22
SPEAKER_02: We're just spiritual.
23:23
SPEAKER_02: And I actually feel so strongly about giving my kids, like,
23:28
SPEAKER_02: really teaching them about Judaism and, like,
23:31
SPEAKER_02: making sure they understand this so there is something there that they could,
23:33
SPEAKER_02: like, grapple onto because I found that Catholicism was that for me.
23:37
SPEAKER_02: Like, I raised it, you know, again, Everybody's different.
23:42
SPEAKER_02: Everyone has their own ways to look at this.
23:45
SPEAKER_02: But I think it's a gift to my kids to do that.
23:47
SPEAKER_02: And then if they take it, great.
23:49
SPEAKER_02: If they don't, they don't.
23:50
SPEAKER_02: But at least they know that there is something there.
23:54
SPEAKER_02: And again,
23:55
SPEAKER_02: similar with Judaism,
23:56
SPEAKER_02: as I think about tarot and astrology, it's been around for a really long time.
24:01
SPEAKER_02: And there is substance there.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: That is actually a pretty good segue into our next topic
24:10
SPEAKER_01: about how big tech is trying to give their AI agents the labubu treatment
24:17
SPEAKER_01: and make them fun little characters.
24:19
SPEAKER_01: Also, interesting timing with talking about religion,
24:22
SPEAKER_01: spirituality,
24:23
SPEAKER_01: because I think it was open AI or anthropic were just trying to meet with the Pope
24:28
SPEAKER_01: to convince him that AI was satient.
24:31
SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, I did not know that.
24:33
SPEAKER_01: That is hilarious.
24:35
SPEAKER_01: So it's a very confusing time right now.
24:39
SPEAKER_01: But so Meta released their digital AI assistant Muse and OpenAI has theirs, which is Dot.
24:52
SPEAKER_01: And they're both like cute little like fly inspired characters.
24:57
SPEAKER_01: Very cute.
24:58
SPEAKER_01: They're like built to be eventually be like plushies.
25:02
SPEAKER_01: But the cuteness is kind of hiding the fact that these things need
25:08
SPEAKER_01: to be deeply involved in your life.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: I was listening to, I think it's the New York Times.
25:16
SPEAKER_01: They're like Wirecutter.
25:18
SPEAKER_01: One of their tech journalists went all in on Meta's AI News.
25:23
SPEAKER_01: And these things require access to your bank accounts, like all of your social platforms.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: Everything in order to your calendar,
25:33
SPEAKER_01: everything in order to be effective, like all your contacts, your email, everything.
25:38
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, in 2026, your digital life is your life, your actual life now.
25:45
SPEAKER_01: And he was talking about like framed as this cute little character.
25:50
SPEAKER_01: It's just Muse.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: He's so cute.
25:53
SPEAKER_01: But he's like, he's in my bank account.
25:57
SPEAKER_01: He is making purchases for me.
26:01
SPEAKER_01: And I know this isn't, like, too new.
26:04
SPEAKER_01: I know, like,
26:05
SPEAKER_01: they've never had an Amazon Alexa,
26:07
SPEAKER_01: but, like, I know people will buy things using their Alexa.
26:11
SPEAKER_01: So it's not that new.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: But it does raise the question of this article talks about,
26:20
SPEAKER_01: like, are these, is this the new wave of consumers, these AI agents?
26:26
SPEAKER_01: We're in our bank accounts and they are shopping for people now.
26:31
SPEAKER_01: And how do retailers, like we're trying to reach customers, how do you reach AI agents?
26:42
SPEAKER_01: It's all very complicated.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: And the branding of these cute little characters, it's very much a calculated move.
26:54
SPEAKER_00: Oh, definitely.
26:55
SPEAKER_00: There was an insight going around not too long ago.
26:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you guys have heard people don't want to adopt AI.
27:02
SPEAKER_00: And even when it's useful to them, there's just kind of a negative association.
27:07
SPEAKER_00: And there was an insight going around that if you anthropomorphize AI,
27:11
SPEAKER_00: people are more likely to be into it and more open to the idea of it.
27:15
SPEAKER_00: So here in LA, we have those food delivery robots and people are vandalizing them and stuff.
27:21
SPEAKER_00: And so they added names to them.
27:23
SPEAKER_00: So now each of them has a name.
27:25
SPEAKER_00: And I think even some of them have eyes.
27:27
SPEAKER_00: And this is just an attempt to anthropomorphize them so that people feel
27:31
SPEAKER_00: a little bit more empathy towards them and then they don't vandalize them.
27:34
SPEAKER_00: So this is kind of I mean...
28:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, I think, like, this makes sense.
28:04
SPEAKER_02: I also think that, like, when I think of, like, like, I'm not surprised this is happening.
28:09
SPEAKER_02: I'll just say that.
28:09
SPEAKER_02: I think that, like,
28:12
SPEAKER_02: you know,
28:12
SPEAKER_02: even when I think of, like,
28:13
SPEAKER_02: Siri or, yeah,
28:16
SPEAKER_02: you said Amazon Alexa,
28:19
SPEAKER_02: I think, like,
28:20
SPEAKER_02: I have personally thought,
28:21
SPEAKER_02: like, like, I've thought of them as, like, people, you know?
28:26
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, oh, like, you know, like, Even, like, the idea, like, why are they women?
28:32
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know what I mean?
28:32
SPEAKER_02: Like, it's just, like, it's just interesting.
28:34
SPEAKER_02: And it's also, like, oh, are they assistants?
28:36
SPEAKER_02: Is there, like, there must be some psychology behind it that we don't know.
28:44
SPEAKER_02: But I've, like, thought about, like, how did Amazon come up with Alexa?
28:47
SPEAKER_02: Like, why specifically that name?
28:50
SPEAKER_02: You know, and then Muse and then even, like, the names of different AIs.
28:55
SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm like, how did they come up with You know, what's the one that's for X?
29:00
SPEAKER_02: They use that.
29:01
SPEAKER_02: Grock.
29:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like how did they come up with Grock?
29:04
SPEAKER_02: You know,
29:05
SPEAKER_02: and it's like, anyway, just,
29:08
SPEAKER_02: I think this idea of like personifying something,
29:13
SPEAKER_02: so it had, yeah,
29:14
SPEAKER_02: like you're tapping in a human emotion
29:16
SPEAKER_02: and you feel like emotionally connected is like, I'm literally not surprised.
29:23
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I would go with Q, to be honest with you.
29:30
SPEAKER_02: Like, it's so funny.
29:32
SPEAKER_02: I'm actually, I've been noodling on using an AI agent to help me clean up my email.
29:40
SPEAKER_02: You know,
29:40
SPEAKER_02: I have two Gmail accounts that are, like,
29:43
SPEAKER_02: from my maiden name and from my married name, which,
29:47
SPEAKER_02: by the way,
29:47
SPEAKER_02: I just want to say,
29:50
SPEAKER_02: 10 years into marriage,
29:52
SPEAKER_02: I still, like,
29:54
SPEAKER_02: I think that there's still stuff I'm dealing with with my maiden name
29:57
SPEAKER_02: to my married name, and I don't understand.
29:59
SPEAKER_02: It's like,
30:00
SPEAKER_02: It's like how men don't even have to worry about,
30:02
SPEAKER_02: like, the cost of, like, pads and tampons and, like, whatever.
30:06
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, this is just this, like, invisible fucking thing that, like, I have to deal with.
30:13
SPEAKER_02: And it's so annoying and, like, it haunts me, you know.
30:18
SPEAKER_02: And I still have, like, my maiden name in my very game.
30:20
SPEAKER_02: It's like, you know, whatever.
30:23
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, so I've been noodling on,
30:24
SPEAKER_02: like, an AI agent to help me clean up my email because I look at my phone.
30:29
SPEAKER_02: For my email thing, I have 132,000 unread, which again, I'm a Virgo.
30:35
SPEAKER_02: Speaking of astrology, I have historically been an inbox zero person.
30:40
SPEAKER_02: Even by phone,
30:42
SPEAKER_02: I don't even think you can leave a voicemail for me right now
30:44
SPEAKER_02: because I have 515 un-listened-to messages.
30:47
SPEAKER_02: And that's also because somehow it has stopped.
30:50
SPEAKER_02: But over the summer, I was definitely sold to a spam company.
30:56
SPEAKER_02: So I was getting all these phone calls with voicemails and I could like pre-read it
31:00
SPEAKER_02: and then I didn't even like listen to it.
31:02
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, I just like, so then it's like, well, do I like allow an AI agent into my email?
31:08
SPEAKER_02: Like, is that like,
31:09
SPEAKER_02: that's intrusive, you know, that's like going into a bank account kind of thing.
31:12
SPEAKER_02: And like,
31:14
SPEAKER_02: and it's funny because I'm talking to a friend who's really good at like plugging
31:17
SPEAKER_02: in different tools just to get her take on like which one to use,
31:20
SPEAKER_02: like use Gemini, do I use chat?
31:23
SPEAKER_02: Like,
31:24
SPEAKER_02: And then there's ones that are more workplace-focused that you can even pay for
31:27
SPEAKER_02: and whatever.
31:28
SPEAKER_02: I don't know where the privacy starts and ends anymore.
31:32
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
31:33
SPEAKER_02: And so it was funny that you even brought up this article because I was thinking
31:38
SPEAKER_02: to myself, I'm like, well, this could be an assistant of mine, right?
31:43
SPEAKER_02: I feel like we could have it for M.T.
31:45
SPEAKER_02: Deco.
31:46
SPEAKER_02: We can have an AI assistant.
31:50
SPEAKER_02: Would we name her him?
31:54
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
31:55
SPEAKER_02: Would that help?
31:57
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
31:58
SPEAKER_02: Like, I think it's, like, interesting.
32:00
SPEAKER_02: Like, this whole thing, it's, like,
32:02
SPEAKER_02: every two weeks, there's, like, a whole new way to look at this in different lenses.
32:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:08
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's just interesting to hear you, Megan,
32:12
SPEAKER_01: talking about, like,
32:13
SPEAKER_01: the food delivery bots because I am getting the new Lububu on my TikTok is
32:21
SPEAKER_01: a bag charm named Rooney,
32:25
SPEAKER_01: which is a little robot that kind of looks like a little boo-boo.
32:29
SPEAKER_01: It's like a little fluff with a face.
32:32
SPEAKER_01: And it responds to its name and turns its head and blinks at you.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: It's this little robot bag charm.
32:39
SPEAKER_01: And TikTok wants me to buy this bag charm so bad.
32:44
SPEAKER_01: It's like every...
32:47
SPEAKER_01: And I'm
32:51
SPEAKER_01: like, okay, this is like a little AI robot that I would carry on my bag.
32:56
SPEAKER_01: And I bet it's only a matter of time before it becomes like a little Alexa.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: And I can be like, hey, Marumi, can you like do blah, blah, blah for me?
33:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the robots are coming.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: So watch out, guys.
33:13
SPEAKER_00: To your point about optimizing these AI bots to shop for us,
33:18
SPEAKER_00: I think that's a very male take in this space.
33:22
SPEAKER_00: And I saw a TikTok of this,
33:23
SPEAKER_00: I'll try to find it and send it to you, Emma,
33:25
SPEAKER_00: where this woman was like,
33:26
SPEAKER_00: how dare they try to take my favorite pastime away from me?
33:30
SPEAKER_00: I love shopping.
33:31
SPEAKER_00: I love scrolling through the sites.
33:32
SPEAKER_00: I don't want an AI to do that for me.
33:35
SPEAKER_00: And there's whole businesses like TJ Maxx is built on the surprise.
33:40
SPEAKER_00: What is it?
33:41
SPEAKER_00: It's not surprise and delight.
33:42
SPEAKER_00: That's Google.
33:43
SPEAKER_00: What's the...
33:44
SPEAKER_00: It's like the hunt, the treasure hunt.
33:46
SPEAKER_00: That's what they call it.
33:47
SPEAKER_00: You're going there to sift through everything and find something that makes you say,
33:52
SPEAKER_00: oh, yes, I found this.
33:53
SPEAKER_00: I have such a great eye.
33:54
SPEAKER_00: I have great taste.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: And if you just have your AI do that for you, that's not fun.
33:58
SPEAKER_00: So I think that there is a human instinct to forage and gather
34:04
SPEAKER_00: that shopping fulfills that I think will never, ever go away.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: There will always be the people who are going to be like, I don't care.
34:12
SPEAKER_00: Do this for me.
34:15
SPEAKER_00: But I think shop and what the business of shopping and what's really profitable
34:20
SPEAKER_00: about it is not the things you need.
34:22
SPEAKER_00: It's the things that you want and the things you want to go hunt for.
34:24
SPEAKER_00: So I'm sure there will be a sector of shops that cater to AI,
34:29
SPEAKER_00: but I think the ones that are going to be successful
34:31
SPEAKER_00: and culturally relevant will be still catering to the human shopper.
34:35
SPEAKER_02: I also just feel like, first of all, I love this foraging and hunting.
34:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, my friends and I talk about it.
34:42
SPEAKER_00: It's like,
34:42
SPEAKER_00: there's something fun about going to HomeGoods and being like,
34:45
SPEAKER_00: look at that, look at that.
34:46
SPEAKER_00: And it's like,
34:47
SPEAKER_00: we're supposed to be out in nature foraging for things and getting others' opinions
34:51
SPEAKER_00: and then showing off our hauls of like, look what I got, you know?
34:54
SPEAKER_00: Like, that's very deeply… Our hauls.
34:58
SPEAKER_00: Really, though.
34:59
SPEAKER_02: It's like, like, nuts.
35:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, actually.
35:03
SPEAKER_01: No, I would much rather, and I do, walk.
35:07
SPEAKER_01: Take 10 minutes to walk to Duane Reade than like order something on Amazon
35:12
SPEAKER_01: because it's more satisfying to me to like be there in person.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
35:18
SPEAKER_01: it'll be interesting because Muse and these AI assistants are like I think
35:23
SPEAKER_01: a week old at this point.
35:24
SPEAKER_01: So it'll be interesting to see how people use them and this like story evolves.
35:30
SPEAKER_01: But thank you guys so much for another great convo.
35:35
SPEAKER_01: And see you guys next week.
35:37
SPEAKER_01: Yay!
35:38
SPEAKER_01: Thank you!
35:39
SPEAKER_03: Bye!