Latest / The Partial Historians / The Gallic Sack of Rome - Part 2
Transcript
- Dr Rad 0:15 Welcome to The Partial Historians. Dr G 0:19 We explore all the details of ancient Rome, Dr Rad 0:23 everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battle's waged, and when citizens turn against each other, I'm Dr Rad Dr G 0:33 and I'm Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Dr Rad 0:44 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Dr Rad 0:56 Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr Rad Dr G 1:04 And I am, Dr G, very excited to be here for more of the war with Gaul. Dr Rad 1:12 Absolutely, we are smack bang in the middle of 390 BCE listeners. So if you want a full list of magistrates for 390 BCE, you definitely need to listen to part one, because we are not going through that again. It was way too long a list. Dr G 1:27 And also, most of them won't matter. It's fine, that's true. Dr Rad 1:31 They'll come up in very incidental ways. So in our previous episode, Dr G, we were really setting things up again for what is about to transpire. We know we're heading into a dark period for Rome, but in our previous episode, we were really just looking at why our sources say the Gauls suddenly seem so interested in a place so far south from where they apparently were. Dr G 1:54 What could prompt such people to march so quickly down the whole of Italy? Well, obviously, it's because they were insulted by the Romans. Dr Rad 2:03 That's right, the foolish Fabians, this trio of brothers from a patrician clan, apparently, were the cause, the major cause, perhaps, of this problem, and we left them in charge As military tribunes with consular power, leading the Roman forces against the Gauls, who have marched super speedily down the length of Italy to face them. And we were at the point where battle was about to take place near the river Alia. Dr G 2:36 Hmmm the intersection of the Tiber with a tributary the Alia, which is just north of Rome and east of Bay, so pretty close to Rome proper, enough for people to be quite worried. Diodorus Siculus tells us that the Gauls have 70,000 troops with them, and that the Romans are only able to muster up about 24,000 in response. Dr Rad 3:04 Yes, I believe the highest number cited by our sources for the Roman side is about 40,000 so they're definitely massively outnumbered Dr G 3:13 woefully outnumbered by the Gauls. Dr Rad 3:17 I think that's one thing we probably can say for certain, whilst numbers given in ancient sources are notoriously unreliable, particularly in this early period of history, it seems safe to say that the Romans were outnumbered no matter what they were facing at this point in time, yes. Dr G 3:36 At this point in time, it seems that they were, yes. Dr Rad 3:39 So Dr G, we've already seen that the foolish Fabians who the Romans stupidly elected to be their military tribunes with consular power in this year didn't do a fantastic job with the levy, and their foolishness continues. Dr G 3:58 Oh no. What have they done now? Dr Rad 4:01 So they don't properly establish their camp when they encounter the Gallic forces. So they hadn't really decided on where they were going to set up camp. They don't really set up a fortified area which the Rubens could use if they need to retreat during the battle. And you will appreciate this in particular, they do not even take the auspices or consider the sacrificial omens. They just start organizing the army like that's the most important thing. Dr G 4:34 Who are these Fabians? Have they never gone to war before? I know the camp is the first thing you have to establish Dr Rad 4:42 well, and it's so important for the Romans to be square with the gods at these sorts of moments. Dr G 4:48 It is. I feel like Livy is clutching for a rationale for why things are going so badly for the Romans this year. Dr Rad 4:56 Arrogance. It just keeps coming, doesn't it? Dr G 4:59 Like who doesn't take the auspices? Dr Rad 5:00 Exactly. Now the Romans being vastly outnumbered, they're not able to organize a front line of forces that can match the Gauls. The Gauls much wider. Okay, so we can see this outnumbering sort of taking place. But this didn't stop the Fabians from trying. They basically are trying desperately to match the Gauls in the organization. And by doing this, they actually end up compromising the military strength of the Romans, because their center was apparently very weak, because it was, I guess, so kind of spread out, or the way that the forces were organized was just kind of so spread out. Dr G 5:47 Okay, all right. So the other thing to do is, like, your tactics need to change when you have less troops. Like, what are you gonna do? Guys, don't try to go toe to toe with the Celts, right now. Dr Rad 5:58 Yes, like, they would have been better off perhaps organizing themselves in a different way, even though it would have made their forces look obviously smaller. I think is the implication here. They're just not sort of thinking straight on their right. They organize their reserves now Brennus, our Gallic chieftain, apparently, although we think that name might be made up by Livy, based on a later Brennus who ends up invading Greece couple of centuries from now. Dr G 6:27 What's a what's a Brennus or two between friends? Dr Rad 6:30 It's a likely name. It's a likely name. He is surprised to see that the Romans have not fielded a larger force to face him, and he's kind of worried that there's some secret weapon or plan afoot. This can't be all the Romans are sending to fight someone as awesome as I Dr G 6:52 I mean, I've heard about the Romans. People tell me they're good. Is this all they got? This is gonna be a pushover. Dr Rad 6:59 Well, and this is where I feel like, once again, we're potentially seeing the legacy of this pestilence that struck a few years before. Dr G 7:07 Not only is the force small, but everybody's scrawny. Dr Rad 7:11 Well, as you say, like hard times, right? Maybe the Romans couldn't really field a huge army at this point in time. Dr G 7:18 Oh, yeah. But you know what they say, hard times create hard men. Dr Rad 7:23 The Romans would love to believe so. Brennus is trying to figure out what it is that the Romans might have up their sleeve. You know, he's thinking, if I were to attack at this point, do they have some secret reserve forces that are going to come around and ambush me. Dr G 7:43 Hidden cavalry unit. Everybody knows they've got one of those. Dr Rad 7:46 Yeah, exactly. So he's trying to puzzle it out, because he's a good leader. Dr, G, he is trying to think strategically. Dr G 7:56 Ah, are we getting into that trope where Rome can only be defeated by great men, Dr Rad 8:01 I think we might be so what he decides is that he's going to hit their reserves first, just in case they were going to be some sort of surprise attack, where they were going to kind of like encircle around his flank and ambush him from the rear, or something along those lines. He's like, You know what? Strategically, I think I'm going to hit the right wing first, where there reserves, the stations, knock them out, and then I should be able to rely on the fact that I clearly have superior numbers to win the day. And Livy notes this as thus, not only luck, but generalship, we're on the side of the barbarians. Yeah. So I the Romans love to do this, don't they, where they can't see themselves as losing just because they were worse. It's also because, I guess it's one of those things where they're like, We were obviously at a really low point. Guys, we were not behaving as we should. The gods were not on our side. These guys, like the shame is so extreme that these guys, these barbarians, were better than us, Dr G 9:04 The very definition of not taking personal responsibility. Dr Rad 9:09 They love to do this kind of thing. Now, the Romans Do not behave like themselves at all during this battle. Dr G 9:16 This is why they lose. Dr Rad 9:17 It is they immediately let fear get to them, and so psychologically, they were beaten almost immediately. And so complete was their forgetfulness that when they decide that they're going to run in a panic away from the Gauls, a lot of them run to Veii. Dr G 9:42 That's the wrong way unless, of course, you're really keen to get back to your seven iugera that you were recently allotted and you're like, you know what? I need to go to my safe place. Dr Rad 9:53 Livy explicitly says that it would have been far more direct for them to go back to Rome. Dr G 10:00 I. Ah. Now I think I might interrupt you here, because I think everything about this battle hinges on which side of the river we think the Roman forces are on. Dr Rad 10:10 This is true. Dr G 10:11 And there are different accounts. There are different accounts of this. And I believe correct me, if I'm wrong, Livy thinks they're on the side that would make it easier to get back to Rome. Dr Rad 10:21 This is true. Dr G 10:21 So that would be the right hand side of the river, whereas Diodorus says that they crossed the Tiber ahead of the battle itself. And he places them closer to the they side of things, which is a really interesting technicality in terms of like, how do we understand the mechanics of this battle unfolding, and how would it have implicated the outcome? Obviously, we know from all of our sources, the record stands that the Gauls win this battle. Dr Rad 10:56 What? Dr G don't give away the ending! Dr G 10:59 I know. I'm sorry, listeners, I'm ruining it for us all again. But the way in which it unfolds would have to be very different, depending on which side of the river people are meeting on. Dr Rad 11:13 This is true, but Livy could not paint a more shameful picture, because we get actually very little battling. It seems like the Romans are just instantly so afraid, and they're thrown into chaos almost instantly, it seems, and they start to run away from the goals, even before they can actually properly see them, Livy says. Dr G 11:39 Wow, okay, I was gonna say, Well, maybe if they had seen the Gauls, and be like, You know what? Those weapons are weird, and I need to get out of here. Dr Rad 11:48 No, I think it's like the Gauls do start attacking a particular part of the Roman army. And for some of the others, they're just so afraid by what they can hear, what they can sense, that they instantly just want to run away, and most of the Roman dead are killed, I can hardly say it. Dr, G, with their backs turned to the enemy, Dr G 12:11 Oh no, the absence of virtus. Dr Rad 12:14 Yeah. And the fact that their forces are thrown into such chaos means that more people die than need to because they're blocking their own retreat. It's like a fire safety plan gone horribly wrong. They just don't know how to queue get out in an orderly fashion. So there's all sorts of chaos going on the left wing. Have run to the bank of the Tiber, and this is where, depending on which side of the river you think they're on, it probably affects the outcome a little bit here. But the main point is that they've run to the river, they actually throw down their weapons. And they're presumably trying to cross the river to get to safety. Dr G 12:56 It's impossible to swim while you're also trying to sort out a whole javelin-spear situation. Dr Rad 13:01 The shame of it to throw aside your weapons so they're trying to swim across apparently, according to Livy, and some of them are drowned because they either can't swim or they are just wearing, you know, so much heavy armour whatever, they're weighed down by it. So it's pretty shocking. Now this is where I am going to highlight some of the scholarship that I've read about. What exactly is going on here. It has been theorized that, whilst this looks incredibly bad for Rome, that they conduct themselves in this manner, perhaps there was strategy at play. Dr G 13:44 Wait, I have some things to say about that. Dr Rad 13:50 Did the Romans know that the Gauls were active in the area? Because they've heard from other people, as you, as you said last episode, the Gauls are so numerous they have to support themselves by constant pillaging. So the Romans have indeed heard that the Gauls are active. They know they're headed in their direction. Perhaps the Romans are unprepared for this, because, again, as you said, tough times, and we've also had the plague in 392 so they're not at their strongest in terms of military men that can fight. So do they send out this particular force to meet with the Gauls, not with the intent of actually winning, but just in holding them at bay and slowing the Gallic advance down, so that the people back in Rome perhaps have time to organize defenses, or something along those lines, to try and prepare themselves for a Gallic onslaught, and perhaps the Romans were actually planning to retreat from this battle. Dr G 14:57 Well, I would love, love to agree that losing a battle and losing troops and allowing men to die, trying to swim across a river, is all part of a clear strategy. I think the best thing that you could say for something like this is that maybe they were trying to buy some time, maybe. But it doesn't go very well. And would that be the kind of thing that you would let on to anybody who was drafted into this force? Probably not, because then they're not really going to fight. So Diodorus Siculus gives us a description of this battle as well. And he says that of the 24,000 Roman troops, they create a line from the river as far as the nearby hill. And that's kind of the organization. He doesn't talk about the left or the right or anything like that, but that they're trying to create a force that allows them to cut off or meet the Gauls at any point, whether it's at the river edge, right up into the more forested section, they station the weakest at the top of the hill. Obviously, the idea is everybody retreats there when they need to, and that's where you create the defensive spot. He doesn't talk about the camp. Nothing to be said about the disorganization. Doesn't mention anything about the auspices or what might be going on with the gods in that relationship, the Celts also have a long line, and their choice troops are stationed on the hill. So we've got the worst of the Romans against the best of the Gauls, and that's the kind of match up that is put to us by Diodorus. So the elite Celts really go hard at the weakest Romans, and the Romans are easily driven off the hill, so they immediately lose their fall back defensive position, instantly, as soon as the battle trumpets are bled and everybody runs in, and maybe there's something to be said for the way that the Gaulish approach their attack, because it seems that the ferocity of the fighting or the nature of losing that strategic position almost immediately, once the battle begins, really turns the morale for the Romans upside down. They don't handle this well. Everyone along the river edge starts to try to flee. There's hardly anywhere to go. You either go into the river to get away from the Celts, or you run into the Celts going in the other direction. This allows the Celts to just really mow down Romans in every direction. The people who flee to the river attempt to swim. We're not sure how many people in the ancient Roman world were swimmers. I mean, they have a river that runs right past their city, but everybody likes a bridge. Dr Rad 17:55 They do like a bridge. Dr G 17:57 Do you, do you swim it? Maybe. Does everybody know how to swim? Probably not. They're taken out pretty easily. People take off their armor to make it easier to swim. This makes them easier targets to be killed, sure. So another tragedy in the making. They showered with javelins as they're trying to cross the river, lots of missiles, people being injured, people dying, bodies in the water. We hear that the bulk of the force goes to Vay. If we're thinking about this in terms of, could this be a Roman strategy? Doesn't sound like it. It sounds like a Roman loss, but if it is indeed part of a broader like, what do we do if things go pear shaped in this battle? Heading to Veii is another way of protecting Rome? Dr Rad 18:49 Well, that's what I was going to say. See, this is the crazy thing about the Battle of the Alia. So this day goes down in Roman history, obviously, as one of the worst that they've ever had, and it's clearly not because, I would say, of the numbers of people who die in this battle, I'm actually not even sure that that many Romans do, in fact die in this encounter. It's the shame of it. It's the way that the battle goes down. That is the terrible thing. We actually know the date of this because it was preserved, because it was so Dr G 19:24 it was so impactful Dr Rad 19:26 yeah, the 18th of July. Dr G 19:28 The 18th of July Dr Rad 19:30 yeah Dr G 19:30 the height of summer Dr Rad 19:32 Yeah. And, you know, it's really freaky time of recording. We're not actually that far away from the 18th of July Dr G 19:37 Oh we should have held off. Dr Rad 19:39 I did think about that, actually, but this is exactly it. If we were to say that this force was sent to encounter the Gauls only to potentially to slow down their advance, then perhaps it's not a chaotic, spontaneous retreat today, where they just, like, don't know where they're going, and they run completely the wrong direction. Dr G 19:58 Run away. Dr Rad 19:58 Yeah, anyway. Dr G 19:58 Oh, this is Veii. This is not where I meant to end up. Dr Rad 20:02 This is where I wanted to end up going. Oh, my God, I went into shock. Perhaps this was the intent, because Veii is actually a fairly well fortified city. Clearly, that's why it took the Romans so long to conquer it, yeah. And so they are kind of splitting their forces, because this is maybe another way of dealing with the situation. And, sorry, no, not and, but this is not at all how it is painted in Livy's account. What ends up happening is, whilst we do have a significant chunk of the forces who managed to get away and head to ve the other part of the Roman forces, who run away to Rome, don't know that they have survived. They don't know that they've gone to veiy. They think they're all dead. So they think this is a day of great slaughter, and they think a huge amount of the Roman forces have been cut down. So this is part of the whole narrative that Livy is building. It's really starting to sound like a soap opera that there are all these guys who have gone to ve seemingly in confusion, but everyone else thinks they're dead. So the Romans that managed to get away, which are mostly, I think, from that right wing, the sort of reserves they flee to Rome, and when they get back to Rome, they tell everyone, oh, my God, it's cataclysmic. Most of our forces have been cut down. Everyone who's not here right now is dead. Dr G 21:33 Wow. Okay, now the other detail that Diodorus offers into this, which might add some some depth to some of what you're saying as well. I think it's additive, rather than sort of calling things into question. In this case, is that he suggests that the when the military tribunes are calling for the levy, they're actually drawing upon all men of military age. It's considered to be a special case situation, because they understand that the Gauls are coming. Dr Rad 22:05 Rumor is that is not at all the case anyway. Dr G 22:09 Rumor is flighty, but bad news is carried swiftly, and they've got a sense that there's a really quite big force of Gaulish folk coming for them. Dr Rad 22:22 They are not wrong. Dr G 22:23 And the idea that they exercise a special power to increase the breadth of who can be levied might mean that we're in a situation where we've got very young, very inexperienced young men out on the battlefield. It might be their first time. Chances are they don't know what they've really seen. They haven't been able to take in the military intelligence aspect of it. And I think when you're running for your life, the last thing that you're doing is looking around to see where Joe Bloggs ended up as your favorite companion. You may be like, you know, if I see him, he's alive. If I don't see him, he's dead. That seems to me to be a very reasonable traumatic response to getting back to Rome and finding that he's not there. Dr Rad 23:12 Absolutely well in my account, nonetheless, this is where we're at, where we've got some survivors who've managed to make it back to Rome. They've told everyone, we've lost. So many people have been killed, so many good men. It's a disaster. They're in such panic that they don't even stop to close the city gates of Rome behind them. They just keep running until they get to the Citadel. That's their safe place. Dr G 23:41 City walls? Pah! I need more than that. Dr Rad 23:44 Oh, the mistakes just keep mounting. Dr, G, it's crazy. Now, of course, as you can imagine, the Gauls who are left back at the Battle of the Alia at this scene are kind of standing there, absolutely dumbstruck. They cannot believe that they have managed to triumph so completely and so quickly against the Romans. They're stupefied. They're kind of actually just standing there like statues. They're thinking, there must be more to this. Surely there's going to be some sort of surprise ambush coming at us at any moment now, but eventually they start to do what you would expect, despoil the bodies of those that they did manage to kill, and also just gather up the weapons and the armor that the Romans seemingly cast aside as they made a stampede to get the hell out of there. And this is something that we know, that you know, sort of Celts-Gallic people are famous for doing. But again, it's not like the Romans don't do it too. This is a standard part of warfare, but certainly they're after resources, so they're not going to leave anything behind. And as they're doing that, they're kind of keep looking over their shoulder, going, what was that? What was that is that the Romans but nothing happens, and they start to get used to the idea that maybe nothing going to happen. And so eventually they start to march in the direction of Rome to finish this business once and for all. And they manage to reach the area just outside of Rome before sunset. So romantic. Dr G 25:25 There it is. We found it Rome, our Eldorado. Dr Rad 25:31 Now they are again somewhat stupefied by the fact that when they reach Rome, the gates are wide open. Dr G 25:41 Well, well, well. Dr Rad 25:45 And not only that, there are no guardsmen or anything to be seen. No one seems to be watching out for the city, seeing what's going on. And again, they're like, This is too easy. This has to be a trap of some kind, right? Dr G 26:05 Now, Diodorus gives us some different details about this actually. He says that the Gauls approach Rome with with some relative caution, but they've also got things that they need to do, and it takes them a little bit of time to do those things before they can get really properly set up. So before they can leave the Battle of Alia, they've got to behead everybody. Dr Rad 26:29 Yes, the beheading, they do become famous for this, don't they? Dr G 26:33 Yeah, it's just, it's part of what they do. It's a post battle insurance. People without heads... Dr Rad 26:39 Insurance? Dr G 26:40 People without heads don't get back up. Dr Rad 26:41 Oh, okay, I wasn't picturing like that. Yep, that makes sense. Dr G 26:47 You know, yeah, you've got to make sure that they're dead. How do you make sure that they're dead? You cut off their head. So they do that. That takes them about a day. And ultimately, Diodorus positions this as being through the whole process that the Gauls take when it comes to a post battle situation, it takes them about three days to turn up to Rome. This is plenty of time for the Romans who are going to flee, to flee. We get a famous story about the priestesses of Vesta, which you're looking at me like. I should come back to that. Dr Rad 27:19 I would come back to that. Dr G 27:20 And that's fine. I'll hold that thought. I've planted the seed. And we also have this sense that the Gauls sit outside Rome for a couple of days looking at the open gates, being like, "it's a trap". And then once they've seen for a couple of days that nothing happens, they're like, well, I guess it's time to pillage the city. And they go in and they start wreaking havoc in the city itself, burning things down, stealing booty. And it's at that time that they realize that the Romans who have stayed have retreated to the Capitoline Hill. Dr Rad 27:59 Yes. Dr G 28:00 That's when they figure it out. They're like, Oh, they're up there. Dr Rad 28:03 Yeah. And this is where the Romans plans might have gone astray. If we are to believe that the Romans had a grand plan behind all of this mess, perhaps they were trying to do something like split the attention of the Gallic forces, like some of them would pursue those who go to Veii, some of them would pursue those who go to Rome. I mean, this is really giving them the benefit of the doubt. Obviously, given what the Romans are saying about themselves at this point in time, it's possible. But nonetheless, the full Gallic force appears to be here in front of Rome. And I do agree with you that it would make a bit more sense if this account, if there was a bit of time passing with this account, you know, and certainly when the Gauls arrive, Brennus makes sure that his forces give the city a full once over, you know, ride right around it, checking it out, reporting back what's going on. They do, I think, probably sit and stare at it a while, but the reports are coming back constantly that we can't see anyone. We can't see any armed men around the walls, and they just become more and more puzzled by this situation. Dr G 29:11 Are you sure this is Rome? Because there isn't anybody here. Dr Rad 29:15 Did we take a wrong turn? Were we meant to turn left, like half a mile ago? Dr G 29:18 Is this Veii? Because I heard that didn't have any people in it. Dr Rad 29:22 Exactly. And in a way, if the Romans didn't plan this, they've done a very good job, because the Gauls could not be more freaked out by this situation. It just seems so incredibly odd. So they decide not to enter Rome, you know, en masse at this point in time, it would be smarter for them to establish their own camp just outside of Rome itself, and they keep patrolling it, just keep an eye on it, and that sort of thing, just trying to figure out what on earth is going on. Because they're pretty sure there are some Romans inside. However, there are many. More of the escaped army in Veii at this point in time. So certainly not all of the Roman forces are in the city. Now, the Romans inside, they're pretty depressed, Dr. G. Dr G 30:12 I'm not surprised. Dr Rad 30:14 I think it's safe to say that this is probably actually their lowest moment. Dr G 30:20 It is pretty bad time to be a Roman. This is an unusual situation to be sure, to find yourself with the enemy at the gate, and being like hmmm hmmm. Dr Rad 30:31 Did I look the gate? No, oh no, damn it. I knew I forgot something. Now they're sitting around feeling pretty sorry for themselves, obviously thinking that most of their forces have been killed because they apparently don't know about the people at they but soon the Romans have no more time for tears, because it is very apparent that the Gauls for arrive. Because even though the Gauls do not enter the sitter immediately, when they're patrolling, they make sure that they let out eerie cries and sounds, and the Romans can hear the freaky sounds coming through. And this is obviously a moment where Livy is noting that these barbaric forces make different kinds of noises to the ones that Romans would to freak people out in this situation, which is very scary. Dr G 31:20 The Romans make civilized war noises. But the Gauls... Dr Rad 31:25 Yeah, when the Romans are patrolling a city and trying to freak people out, they go, whereas the Gauls, I guess, are getting out more of like ArrrOooooh, which, if you were curled up in the Citadel because you ran back there in a panic would probably be pretty freaky. So the Romans have an awful time of it. Now, Livy's placing this as the Romans had an awful night. I'm gonna say that this is a night time after the Gauls have been there maybe for a few days when the goals are making these sounds. You know, the timeline is very unclear, but they are certainly having a terrible time of it once they realize the Gauls are circling around them, because they are, of course, expecting an attack at any moment. Why would the Gauls have followed them all the way back to the city if they weren't planning something evil, Dr. G? Dr G 32:20 Well, I hate to break it to the Romans, but how do they think a siege starts? Dr Rad 32:25 Well, they're not expecting a siege. They haven't looked the gates. But anyway, they don't know what's going on. First they think, are they going to attack us during the day? That would make sense. But then when night hits, they're like, oh, maybe they're planning to really scare us with a night attack, it'll be even more terrifying. So I'm imagining the Romans are on no sleep, no food, picturing all their dead friends on the battlefield, basically at a mental breakdown point by the time dawn hits on whatever day this is supposed to be. Dr G 33:00 The timeline is a bit fuzzy. Dr Rad 33:02 It's a little bit fuzzy, but it's at this moment when the Romans are at complete mental breakdown that the Gauls finally enter the city. Dr G 33:13 Aha! Dr Rad 33:13 Yeah. They were just building up to that. Yeah. As soon as the Gauls are inside, the Romans are magically transformed back into the valiant people, but they are 99.9% of the time. Dr G, it's just at the Battle of the Alia that it all fell apart. They had to face some tough facts pretty quickly. There's no way they're going to be able to fight this gigantic Gallic force, especially considering that they were outnumbered at the Alia but now they have even less. They have a tiny army, so they have to make a decision. And what they decide upon is this, that men of military age and any able bodied senators who are left should all go and take refuge in like the Citadel on the Capitoline Hill. Wait, yeah on the Capitol yeah on the Capitol line Hill, with their wives and their children, along with whatever weapons and food that they can scrounge together. And there they will hold up. They're going to quote, defend the gods the men and the name of Rome sounds very noble. Well, I think that this is where they suddenly start thinking about, Oh, maybe a siege is going to take place here. Dr G 34:39 Could it be a siege? Yes, it could. Could. Dr Rad 34:42 I think they're trying to preserve what they see, as you know, the heart of Rome. They also this is where some of your tidbits starts to come into play, although not entirely, want to make sure that the flamen and the priestesses of Vesta. They should secure the sacred objects for the sake of the state. Now, they're not going to secure them all in the Citadel or anything like that. Rather, they're going to take them away so that they're far away from where any fighting is going to be taking place, because God knows, a fire might take place at some point in this course of events. And if they can make sure that the cults can survive, then Rome survives, Dr G. Dr G 35:28 Exactly. So getting the Vestals out of the Temple of Vesta is supremely important because of the objects that the Vestals look after. These sacred objects include the palladium, this little statuette of Pallas Athena that was reportedly bought by Aeneas all the way from the battle of Troy. Dr Rad 35:49 Fancy. Dr G 35:50 Very fancy, and the signs of imperium. Six miscellaneous objects do not know what they look like that are very important and are usually kept in the penus, this storage room inside the Temple of Vesta, Dr Rad 36:09 They are very cheeky Dr G. very, Dr G 36:11 Very. A penus inside the temple. Dr Rad 36:14 I know. The Temple of Vesta of all places! Dr G 36:17 I know. And so they take these six miscellaneous sacred objects, which the Romans believe as long as they possess, means that they will continue to rule. So very important to have them removed from the city at this point because the city is so endangered, and to be taken to a secret off site location. Dr Rad 36:41 Okay, so we've got the cult of Vesta hopefully enduring, and therefore the Romans enduring the Citadel and the Capitol. That's like the perimeter. If that part can survive, if that sacred part of the city can survive, then there's some hope. Obviously, they do need younger, able-bodied men to defend this place, because they're going to be best able to do that. But also, I think there's an element of they're the future as well. You know, they're the future of Rome. And of course, you do need some people who have public wisdom, hence, some senators. But what are you going to do with a really old magistracies, Dr G? Dr G 37:23 Well, probably eat them, I'd say, as the siege goes on, being like, look, he's as tough as leather. But, you know, times are tough. Dr Rad 37:31 Well, the Romans aren't quite so cut throated. They do decide that it has you know, facts have to be faced. These are the men that are going to have to accept their fate. There's not room for everybody left in Rome to take refuge on the Citadel and the Capitol. They have to focus on the necessary people. And so some of the really old ex magistracies, they are going to have to die. Dr G 38:00 Oh yeah, I don't see why this can't lead to them being eaten. Dr Rad 38:03 Well, no no more in the sense that they can't be put in this area of safety, they can't be protected. They're just going to have to take their chances in the city. Because, after all, they've lived their life, they've reached an old age. How long do they really have to live anyway? The Romans can't waste precious resources and space on people like this. And they're like, yep, we accept that. You know, for the good of Rome, we accept that. Dr G 38:30 That is not okay Rome. That is a terrible decision. Dr Rad 38:33 Hey, you were saying they should eat them. Dr G 38:34 Well, I mean, if you're gonna do it, do it properly. Don't just lead them to fend for themselves in the lower parts of the city where the Gauls are. Dr Rad 38:42 Well, that is what's going to happen. Now we also have a lot of common people who are called plebs in my account, who also need to accept the fact that they also are not going to be allowed to be in this citadel capital area. Dr G 38:57 Oh no, no, no. This is going badly. Rome. You're making some terrible decisions right now. Are you telling me that the only people who get to end up on the Capitol line Hill are patricians? Dr Rad 39:06 I didn't say that, but I think the implication is that they probably mostly are. Dr G 39:11 Wow, Dr Rad 39:12 Yeah. Now Dr G 39:13 Rome can fall Gauls sack it. You have my permission. Get in there. Dr Rad 39:17 Hey the plebs are cool with this to a certain extent, because the ex magistracies, all these men of glory and honor, people who've held triumphs, people who have held the consulship, even though I don't know how that's possible, because it hasn't been around very much recently. Dr G 39:34 Well, they would have had to, it was so long ago. Dr Rad 39:38 They come out and they make a big public declaration that they are prepared to die with the masses, especially as they were old men. They're not going to suck up all the resources. They're going to be brave to the end. This is meant to be, obviously inspirational. Yeah, and they actually these older men, they try and, you know, give a little bit of a pep talk to the younger men that are going to actually be doing the defending of the Citadel and the capitol as they head towards this area and prepare themselves for what they are anticipating is going to be a siege, basically saying, you know, come on, guys, you can do this. You're strong. The fortune of this city is in your hands. You can do it. We've survived worse than this. I think it's slightly selective memory going on in Livy's here, because he definitely says that Rome will be fine, because, after all, we've survived and have been victorious in every war for 367 years. It is very clear that that is not the case. Dr G 40:47 Okay, but that's that's not how a win record works. You have to win every time for it to continue. Dr Rad 40:53 Yes, but I guess you know, this is not the moment to be honest. This is the moment to try and sugarcoat things, and we have this very tragic parting scene where those that are going to be defending the capital and the Citadel have to say goodbye to everybody else, and it's made worse by women. Dr G 41:12 Of course it is. Yeah, classic Rome. Ruined by women. Dr Rad 41:16 The women are running around in an absolute state, asking their husbands and sons, what on earth have you agreed to? What is going on? How is this going to affect us all legitimate questions, I feel, but it's painted as a bit of hysteria. I think, stop asking questions now. Interestingly, Livy does note at this moment that women are allowed to go with their relatives at this point. So mostly we seem to have women going with their sons, because it's younger men who are going to the Citadel. The sons hadn't explicitly said, Hey, Mum, why don't you come with me? And I'll make sure that you live through this. But they haven't explicitly said that they're not allowed to come because what the Romans are doing some pretty gruesome math at this point in time where they know it would obviously be better if no women go towards the Citadel and the Capitol. Because, of course, obviously they're completely and utterly useless human beings, Dr G, and they're just going to be taking up space and consuming valuable resources. But they know it would have been too cruel to actually say that to them and forbid them from going. So women do go, and the Romans are mad at it, but they're also noting that, look, we could have been a lot harsher here, but we're just we're "Stand Up Guys", so we didn't forbid women from going with their family members and trying to survive. Dr G 42:47 The flavor of distaste that I hold in my mouth right now for the Romans, it is disgusting. Dr Rad 42:56 Look. It might make you feel a little bit better to know that Livy's Probably being influenced in the way that he's building up this picture by Greek writers who have written, you know, similar scenes during warfare, specifically, probably Thucydides, when he's writing about these sorts of scenes where it's common, I suppose, to have these tragic farewells emotional women, it's come up before. Dr G 43:23 I'm not sure that I like it, though. Dr Rad 43:26 So we now have obviously, a bunch of people who know that they're not going to be included on the Capitol Hill because there's not enough space, not enough food. And so they start scrambling. They spread out. Some of them make for the Janiculum. Others are just running through the countryside. They're heading to nearby towns. There is zero plan. There is no one in charge of this. They're just trying to go with their gut, like, what's the best situation right now? And these are mostly the plebeians, definitely, because it seems like Rome is a goner, so it's time to up sticks and get out of there before the Gauls realize that the Romans actually have apparently just left the gates open by accident. Dr G 44:12 Well, I put it to you that even if the gates were closed at this point in time, there's not enough people around to really make a difference. It would only take one real solid push from a Gaul to be like, wait a minute, guys, it's unlocked. Dr Rad 44:29 Now this is where we get a moment that I know you will enjoy. We hear what's happening with the flamen and the Vestals who are trying to get out of Rome with some of the sacred objects. Dr G 44:41 Oh, yes. What does Livy have to say about this? Dr Rad 44:43 Well, I mean, these people, they are so honorable, they're not even thinking about what they would take in an emergency. I mean, this is where it would be fun to sit around and be like if you were an ancient Roman in 390 what would you take to escape the Gauls? Dr G 44:58 I'd take the Palladium. Dr Rad 45:00 They're not even thinking about their personal stuff. They're just trying to think, what sacred objects should we take with us? Because, of course, they can't take all of them, because they're going to have to carry and walk with whatever they have, apparently. Now, the interesting detail that Livy includes here is that it is the flamen of Quirinus who is with the Vestals at this moment in time. Dr G 45:22 The flamen of Quirinus, so related somewhat to the ascension of Romulus. Dr Rad 45:28 Well, this is the thing, right? So this is where I actually would love to have your POV, if I may. So there are obviously three major flamens In Roman religion, the Flamen of Quirinus is one of them. And then we have the Flamen Dialis, and then we have Dr G 45:50 the Flamen Martialis. Dr Rad 45:52 That's the one. I always forget that one. Now, apparently it is quite unusual for the Vestals to be associated with the Flamen of Quirinus. Dr G 46:04 Yes, but that's only because perhaps it's unusual for us to think about the Vestals in connection with the Flamen of Quirinus. So we have the most information from our ancient sources on the Flamen Dialis And then the flamen Martialis and the least on the flamen Quirinus. So we're kind of caught in a crossroads of like, is it unusual that the Vestals are in league with this guy right now, or is it just unusual for us and what we know about how the priesthoods were all interconnected, so the flamens sit sort of adjacent alongside the pontificates, but outside of the pontifice as well, to a certain degree, and the Vestals sit under the pontificies. So we often expect that the Vestals will be hanging out with a greater or a lesser pontificate. But that's not the way that things work. At a sacred perspective, in the Roman mindset, if your gods are interconnected, and they all are on some level, there's going to be relationships that you have across the spectrum through all of these priesthoods at different times of the year, different points and moments of ritual practice, and we just don't know. We don't have much evidence. Dr Rad 47:25 Mmm interesting. Okay, well, nonetheless, it's this little band that are together now, not only are they going to be carrying- Dr G 47:32 A highly unlikely bunch of characters, all quite quirky and on the run from the Gauls. Dr Rad 47:39 What will they get up to next? So they obviously have to carry some stuff with them, but they also decide that they're going to protect some objects by burying them. So first they place them in jars, presumably to make them easier to find, and also to keep them clean, and they decide that they're going to bury these jars in bury them in a shrine next to the flarman's house, and I quote, where is now forbidden to spit. Dr G 48:09 We'll have none of that around here. Dr Rad 48:11 No, and this is where they start heading out. They're also heading in the direction of the Janiculum. It seems like they ultimately have the goal of reaching the city of - is it Caere? Dr G 48:23 Oh, well, that's quite far away, but it is in that direction. Dr Rad 48:27 Yes. Is it Caere, though, is that how you pronounce it? C, A, E, R, E, yes. Okay. Caere. Dr G 48:33 Well, that's how I pronounce it. I can't guarantee it's how it should be. Dr Rad 48:36 They're heading in the direction of Caere, which is quite far away. I don't know how on earth they're expecting to walk that way Dr G 48:43 About 50 kilometers away Dr Rad 48:44 And this is where they encounter a young plebeian boy, take it away. Dr G. Dr G 48:49 A young plebeian boy. Dr Rad 48:51 Correct, that correction. This is where they encounter a noble plebeian. Dr G 48:55 A noble plebeian, oh, with the very definition of an oxymoron. So they're leaving Rome. They're wandering through the countryside with the sacred items that they've decided need to be carried with them. They encounter a guy called Lucius Albinus, one of the common people he's described as and he assists them in their flight. So he's got a cart, pushes his wife and children out of the cart, and says, my ladies, my priestesses of Rome, please hop in my cart. Humble though it is, his wife's on the ground, "Oi! Lucius!" Dr Rad 49:41 So why are you supposing I walk 30 miles to Caere? Dr G 49:45 Yeah, we're not even halfway. And so, kicks the wife and children out of the cart, takes up the Vestal Virgins, and by doing so, ensures that they're able to get far enough away from Rome to preserve the sacred items now heaven forfend that we find out whatever happens to his wife and children that he leaves unceremoniously on the side of the road in favor of the Vestals. Dr Rad 50:12 I think it's very clear that they do not matter. Dr G 50:14 They don't make it. Maybe that's what happens. But through this gesture, we see the continuity of the Roman state is preserved on a sacral level. Dr G 50:25 Absolutely Dr G 50:25 So a very important tale. Dr Rad 50:26 And what is really - what is really interesting about this story so often, when we tell these sorts of stories, we're like, well, this character is clearly a lay tradition that's been added in because some family probably wants their ancestor to get a name drop or something like that. But apparently he actually appears quite early in the tradition of this story. And some of the historians I have read actually think that Albinus is, in fact, a historical figure. Dr G 50:58 Well, it wouldn't be the first time a plebeian has made it into an historical record, but this is a story that does get retold. So there is a version of this story in Flores who's much, much later, and the idea that this could also have ended up in priestly records, yes, is the sort of thing that makes scholars more likely to think, "Oh, well, if it keeps cropping up in these other historians, then chances are there might be a sacral record of it." Dr Rad 51:30 Yeah, well, Dr G, I think we might have gotten to a moment where it's perhaps time to wrap up, because we've got the Romans who are remaining in the city, getting ready to defend the Citadel. They finally got their game face on, and they are ready to face the Romans. We've got plebeians and a few other people scrambling through the countryside finding refuge, apparently, in very far away places. Because, yeah, Caere is an Etruscan city, which is 30 miles away. Dr G 52:05 I was going to say, it's like 50 kilometers away from Rome. Like, if you're going to run away from Rome, like, do it properly? Run away. Dr Rad 52:13 Look, I guess that's the thinking, right? The Vestals are like, I really have to go. If they catch me, it's all over. We've got the Gauls finally realizing that it is not a trap, it is just stupidity. And they're tentatively coming into Rome and checking out what is going on. And we also have a bunch of people who are indeed still left in the city because they've either decided not to go, it's just not practical. But we also have a body of older ex magistracies, etc, who are scattered throughout the city, and where they have taken up residence is, well, in their residence, they're in their houses, and they are waiting to die because they're pretty sure that the Gauls are going to obviously check out all the houses. Eventually they will come across them. They're kind of expecting that they will die and whatever sort of melee breaks out. And so with Rome, once again, I'm really sorry, listeners, I really thought we were going to get to the actual sack of Rome, but it seems that, once again, we're just on the precipice of the sack of Rome that is about to ensue. And it is indeed time, Dr G, for the Partial Pick. Dr Rad 53:27 Oh, boy. Dr, G, the Partial Pick. Let's tell us what in theory it's about, and then see how the Romans do. Dr G 53:35 In theory, the Partial Pick is a chance for the Romans to be scored against some criteria that they might have cared about if they were still with us. And it is worth a total of 50 gold Eagles, and there are five categories, so they get marked out of 10 for each category. I'm not anticipating great things from this Partial Pick, but. Dr Rad 53:58 Biased? Dr G 53:59 Well, just based on what Dr Rad 54:01 You are, a partial historian. Dr G 54:02 I am, a noble partial historian, a plebeian noble. So our first category is military clout. Dr Rad 54:13 Clearly none to be had here. Dr G 54:16 Cloutless. Dr Rad 54:17 Yeah. I mean, look, we can maybe say that if we give them a lot of benefit out and go against what they themselves tell us happened, that maybe there was some strategy, and it didn't quite go as they were planning. Dr G 54:32 Oh yes, yeah, it was a strategy. It's all going exactly as I planned. Dr Rad 54:37 With people just running in every direction with whatever they can carry, with men kicking their wives and children to the curb so that they can take the vessels, because the vessels have no mode of transportation because nobody cares. Dr G 54:53 Yeah? Intense. That's a zero, yeah? Diplomacy. Dr Rad 54:58 Well, no, I mean, it's a state. Open warfare, wherever you look. Dr, G, yes, nobody's tried talking. No, not anymore. The time for words is over, because clearly when the Gauls and the Romans talk, I mean, these guys have gone from basically not even knowing who each other really are to absolutely hating each other's guts with the intensity of 1000 sons in a very short period of time. Dr G 55:21 I think this is a great setup for enemies to lovers. I wait to see it. All right. Expansion? Dr Rad 55:28 Well, yeah, no. I mean, as I say, they're clearly on the brink of losing Rome itself at this point. Dr G 55:33 Virtus? Dr Rad 55:34 Ooh, okay. Now, is it possible that we say Albinus giving the virgins a lift. Dr G 55:43 Is that an act of virtus? To push your wife and children out of your cart? Dr Rad 55:51 For the sake of the eternal flame? Virgin women, close your eyes, give me a hand Vestal. Dr G 56:01 I don't think that's virtus. I think what we might be able to say is virtus is the very old ex magistracies who have decided to remain in the city- Dr Rad 56:11 Ah yes Dr G 56:12 with their wise words and sort of moral uplift of those who surround them, being like, you know, what a noble death is, a death that is a Roman death, where you sit it out and you wait for the enemy to come and you do your best, Dr Rad 56:26 yeah, Dr G 56:26 and if you don't make it, you don't make it. Dr Rad 56:28 yeah. And look, to be honest, I have to mention here something that will come up when we actually deal with what happens to them next episode. But they actually do do something special with their death, it seems. So it's going to be quite the moment. That's why I didn't want to rush ahead into it. I didn't want to, didn't I wanted to give them their final moments of glory, their moment to shine. Exactly. I didn't want to rush through it, because we've seen where rushing gets you Dr G 56:55 all the way to curry, and Dr Rad 56:57 they apparently accidentally, you know, whoops, yeah, Dr G 57:00 I just misread the sign. Dr G 57:03 So do we give you anything for that? Maybe a two, two. Well, it's not like they've seen any goals yet. Like they know that the Dr Rad 57:11 intention, we're going to reward the intention, and then we'll award the actual act. Dr G 57:15 Well, they've said they're going to do like, yeah. They've stated some wise virtus kind of thing. Dr Rad 57:20 Yeah, and they've said to the plebeians, don't worry, plebs, we're gonna die too. Dr G 57:25 I'm right here next to you. Dr Rad 57:27 Exactly. It makes it all better, because I'm awesome. You get to die next to someone who's awesome. Dr G 57:32 Yeah, that's a real benefit. Dr Rad 57:33 I feel like, look, I feel like we maybe have to give them a three. Like, they'll probably get more points next time, to be honest. But yeah, I feel like maybe a three. Dr G 57:42 Okay, okay. And finally, is the citizen score? Dr Rad 57:45 Oh, that's got to be crashing through the ground into minus points at the moment. Dr G 57:51 I - Yes, terrible time. First of all, you're called up in a military levy, which is all ages. Essentially, if you can hold a sword, you could fight. Bad news, bad news. If you're a woman in Rome, you've basically been told you don't belong on the Capitol. We don't want to say it explicitly, but please don't agree to stay. Dr Rad 58:08 Look. But they did allow them to stay. They just didn't want to say to their faces. Dr G 58:12 And I'm proud every single Roman women who were like, I know they want me to leave. And you know what, I'm not going to do it, to stick around and make a bad smell of myself, and they're gonna have to know that I'm here. Good for you, lady. Dr Rad 58:28 I think the unwritten thing as well is that it would have been pretty awful for the men who are left. Well, I mean, you would hope it would be awful for the men who are left to have to see their female relatives left behind in that situation. I mean, at best, a quick death. At worst, we don't want to talk about it. If we're thinking about an enemy attacking the city, they could have been taken as slaves, so they could have been brutalized, and perhaps in a sexual way, like it could have been really bad. So presumably, for morale, the men actually don't want their female relatives to not be on the Capitol. But they're just pointing out, as the Romans tend to do, because they are relentlessly pragmatic, that if we're just thinking about the food and space, there is no place for women here. Dr G 59:19 What are you doing? Dr Rad 59:20 Yeah. Dr G 59:22 I'm eating all your grain. Thanks for having me, but we've only got such a small amount. So to be a citizen at the moment is pretty bad. You're either running away from the city or you're staying in the city knowing that the Gauls are right outside doing their howly noises. So not a pleasant time. Dr Rad 59:41 It's close to midnight Dr G 59:44 Exactly, and nobody wants to be around to see what happens. So I think a zero for the citizen score. Dr Rad 59:50 Yep, which means that the Romans, amazingly, have managed to get some points on the board. They've got three golden eagles this time, Dr G. I have to admit, I wasn't actually anticipating that when I read this account, I was like, this is just going to be zero. Dr G 1:00:05 Across the board, they did better than we thought. Dr Rad 1:00:07 But you know what? This is the thing. This is why we have the categories, right? Because even when things are going poorly for the Romans, this is the moment where you bound to have some sort of story to uplift in the histories. And that story is probably going to involve some sort of behavior on behalf of, I don't know, the citizens or the patricians or something like that, which actually gives them some golden eagles. Just when you think they're going to have absolutely zero. Dr G 1:00:32 They do something. They pull it out of the bag. Dr Rad 1:00:35 Yeah, it's actually the incredibly average moments when things are kind of sailing smoothly and nothing's really happening that they're probably going to get absolutely nothing. Dr G 1:00:43 Yep, and it's like you didn't even try this year Rome, exactly. Wow. All right, so I would say that I'm very much looking forward to our next conversation. Dr Rad 1:00:54 We really will be talking about the sack of Rome. Look, you say that, but Dr G 1:00:58 I have a lot of things that happened before the sack of Rome. Dr Rad 1:01:02 Okay, well, I'm on the precipice of the attack itself. Dr G 1:01:06 Okay, well, we'll see. I look forward to it, Dr Rad 1:01:09 yeah, yeah. I feel like we've, we've left things on a very Gaulish Roman encounter where somehow this has become an aggressive goodbye. Dr G 1:01:22 Yeah? Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. You can find our sources sound credits and transcript in our show notes. Over at partialhistorians.com we offer a huge thank you to you, if you're one of our illustrious Patreon supporters, if you enjoy the show, we'd love your support in a way that works for you. Leaving a night's review really makes our day. We are on Ko-Fi for one or four ongoing donations or Patreon, of course. Our latest book, "Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire", is published through Ulysses press. It is full of stories that the Romans probably don't want you to know about them. This book is packed with some of our favorite tales of the colorful history of ancient Rome. Treat yourself or an open minded friend to Rome's glories, embarrassments and most salacious claims with "Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire". Transcribed by https://otter.ai