Latest / Show, don't Tell Writing with Suzy Vadori / 80. Applying Fiction Skills to Writing Non Fiction with Dr. Laura

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80. Applying Fiction Skills to Writing Non Fiction with Dr. Laura · Show, don't Tell Writing with Suzy Vadori

0:05
Welcome to the show.
0:05
Don't Tell Writing Podcast with me, Suzy Vidori, where I peel back the layers of how to wow your readers with your fiction, your nonfiction.
0:13
Anybody can bang out a first draft, but it takes a little more work to make your book as amazing as it can be.
0:20
Join me as I share the step by step writing techniques you could apply to your writing right away.
0:25
As I host successful writers who share a behind the scenes look at their own writing lives, and as I live coach writers on their pages giving practical writing examples that will make your own writing stronger.
0:38
Nobody is born knowing how to write an engaging book.
0:42
There are real and important skills that you need to learn on this show.
0:46
I cut through the noise and get you all the info you need.
0:49
I can't wait to see how this information is going to transform your writing.
0:57
I first met Dr. Laura Hamley Lovett when she published her two psychological thrillers, losing Cadence and Finding Sophie, which aimed to captivate readers while raising awareness about mental health and domestic violence.
1:09
These novels are currently being adopted into a television series and inspired her to co-found with her a movement to end violence against girls and women.
1:19
Laura is incredibly inspiring and as a colleague in the fiction world, we did a lot of different things together, including I've been on her podcast and I was incredibly privileged and honored to coach her through her upcoming book about toxic bosses.
1:34
I wish I'd quit sooner, right from the planning stages.
1:37
So the subtitle of the book is Practical Strategies for Navigating a Toxic Boss, and it releases January 13th in 2026.
1:46
It draws research in decades of experience, and it offers insight, validation, and practical strategies for those navigating the damaging effects of toxic leadership in today's workplaces.
1:57
I'm sure many, many of our listeners have worked for bosses that were potentially toxic.
2:02
This book is for you.
2:04
This episode is also for you.
2:06
If you've ever thought about, if you're writing fiction today and you've ever thought about writing nonfiction or if you want to write a nonfiction business book, Laura is a superstar and has done so many things to make sure that this book is positioned exactly the way that she wants it to be, and we talk about that today.
2:24
She is an organizational psychologist, a keynote speaker, business leader and author, and also the podcast host of the Highly acclaimed podcast where work meets life.
2:35
She's a sought after thought leader on workplace psychology, the future of work and career development.
2:40
With 25 years of experience, Dr.
2:42
Lore is passionate about creating cultures that attract top talent where people stay and thrive.
2:48
Laura has founded several psychology and consulting practices over the years, including Canada Career counseling in 2009, where registered psychologists have helped thousands of Canadians navigate their career and workplace challenges while supporting immunizations to develop thriving leaders and cultures.
3:04
She holds a PhD in industrial organizational psychology from the University of Calgary, where she's currently an adjunct professor.
3:12
Laura also received Canadian Women of Inspiration Award as a global influencer in 2018.
3:18
She's indeed inspiring.
3:20
I can't wait for you to hear this episode where we talk all about the book, the process of writing the book, what it's meant for her career, her businesses, and also her launch plans.
3:32
Take a listen.
3:35
Welcome on the show.
3:36
Tell Writing podcast today.
3:38
Laura Hambley Lovett.
3:40
Welcome to the show, Laura.
3:42
Dr.
3:42
Laura, thanks for having me, Suzy.
3:44
It's just an honor to be here, and you were on my podcast a number of years ago, so it's, I, I was, yeah.
3:51
Yeah, I, I love that.
3:51
We're gonna talk about your podcast today too, because you actually came to writing this book after writing two novels and contributing to several academic books.
4:02
What was about a nonfiction book to support your business at this moment in time that just was like, I gotta do this.
4:10
That is.
4:11
A great question.
4:13
So a couple of things I. I mean, one was as a professional speaker, so I've been more intentionally focusing my career on professional speaking for the last two to three years.
4:27
Mm-hmm.
4:27
And as I got more and more into that arena, I realized that Keynote typically have books and I want to do more and more big stage keynotes.
4:39
I felt I was missing something by not having a book, but I only wanted to do a book if it was an idea that the world needed and was something I was passionate about.
4:51
Absolutely.
4:51
And can, you're also a business owner.
4:54
Can you tell us a little bit about your business, just so that it makes sense why you know, what you speak about and why you wanted this book to support that you have your novels, which is like sort of a different thing, but can you tell us a little bit about your businesses?
5:07
So I've been in the field of psychology for 25 years, and I've always played in the area of work and career psychology.
5:16
So applying psychology to help people figure out their careers at all ages and stages and help.
5:23
Organizations be better places for human beings to thrive.
5:27
And I do so by helping leaders, helping build cultures, helping with teams, helping with dysfunctional dynamics.
5:35
And all of this led me to start my own business 16 years ago.
5:40
And my business has operated as a few different things in the market, but the consistent brand we've had is Canada Career Counseling for the last 16 years.
5:49
And we are the leaders in Canada when it comes to psychologists that specialize in career development.
5:56
So combining psychology and mental health and motivation and all those things with figuring out your purpose and what you're meant to do in this world.
6:07
I know, I love that.
6:08
And I think that's why we get along so well and.
6:10
Our lives actually intersect in many different places at this moment in time, which has been so fun with our choir and our hiking and like, there's a few different things.
6:19
It's been a real gift get to do together.
6:20
Getting to know you.
6:20
Yeah.
6:21
And I, yeah, and I just love the work you do with clients, Susie, which is why people keep crossing my sphere that I introduce you to, to help because there's people that have absolutely booked them and it's really.
6:33
To birth a book, you need good support and a good coach.
6:37
Yeah.
6:38
Unless you're a total self-starter who's completely organized and not a procrastinator at all.
6:44
But most of us don't fit that, do we?
6:47
No, not me.
6:48
And I was gonna say yes.
6:50
That and.
6:51
Just your whole inspiration around doing what you love and, and all of those things speaks to me so much and I, I've done that and you know, I've worked with clients to make sure that, and sometimes writing is that space, but you have so many books in you, and this was part of it when we started talking about what this book was gonna be.
7:09
What was it about Toxic Bosses that you felt like now was the moment?
7:13
'cause that was a tough decision.
7:15
There was a lot of different books that you were considering writing.
7:19
Yeah, I mean there, there wasn't a lot, but there was this idea that I had been seeing more and more of our clients at Canada Career counseling who were suffering under toxic workplace conditions.
7:32
And a toxic workplace is quite often involving a toxic leader that you report to.
7:37
And I just seen this phenomenon.
7:40
And then because I'm also an organizational psychologist and consultant, I get to go in and see different organizations and survey and figure out what's going on and help them.
7:50
And I'd just been seeing more of these arising and I, I suffered under two toxic bosses in my own career.
7:58
And my own career has mostly been as an entrepreneur.
8:01
To have two of them in, in my 25 year career, and 16 of that, I've run my own business.
8:08
I mean, the math is interesting.
8:10
And then as I looked into the data and and stats on this, 87% of people identify as having reported to a toxic boss, 87%.
8:21
So it's something that, yeah, that's so neat.
8:22
Most people can relate to.
8:24
And then as I was putting stuff out on social media around the topic, people were really latching onto it.
8:30
And I thought, I think there's a topic here that I need to write about and research.
8:36
Yeah, absolutely.
8:37
And that, that's what I was gonna say is then you pivoted to do this research study as an adjunct professor at the University of Calgary.
8:44
You put together the study.
8:46
Do you wanna tell us briefly what came out of that study and how that shaped your thinking for the book?
8:52
I have a privilege of being an adjunct professor, which means I have access to research students, to all the stuff I need to do research.
9:00
And I had this wonderful, uh, student and.
9:03
We looked in, we started to look into toxic leadership and she's originally from China and she said, ah, it's a big thing in China too.
9:11
There's a lot of toxic leadership going on in organizations there.
9:14
And to the point that, yeah, a lot of young people don't even wanna work in an organization.
9:19
They wanna be entrepreneurs and even run a food truck outside.
9:23
I think she's from Hong Kong, actually.
9:24
They wanna have a food truck outside and have freedom and flexibility rather than a corporate job.
9:30
'cause it's been sucking their souls.
9:32
And so she said, I'm interested in that research with you.
9:35
So we did a qualitative study, which means you interview people and you dig deep into their stories.
9:41
So we interviewed 20 people who had worked for a toxic boss across North America and we got loads of data and then we were able to really look at what are the behaviors, what are the impacts?
9:53
What did they learn from it?
9:54
How did they recover?
9:56
And so we got so much data, and that's what went into my book because I, I was able to look at the data and get it into the eight personas of a toxic boss, so the eight different behavioral personas.
10:08
And there wasn't much research out there, um, mostly on the US military and mostly overseas.
10:13
And there wasn't much post pandemic for sure.
10:16
So Renee and I decided to tackle that topic.
10:20
Yeah, and you did something really smart that I wish all writers, so listen up.
10:24
If you are thinking about writing any kind of book, whether it's a novel or, or a nonfiction business book like Laura has, like Dr.
10:32
Laura has, but I wish you know everybody would do this, but you just started talking about the topic.
10:38
Now you do already have a platform around your Dr. Laura business.
10:43
You have a podcast and you have outlets, and you are a public speaker.
10:47
So you had places.
10:48
To do this, but you started talking about toxic bosses really early, as soon as you made the decision to write this book.
10:57
And, and where did you do that and what ended up happening?
11:00
Uh, yeah, so I started putting more and more on social media.
11:04
Then I started doing solo podcast episodes about toxic bosses.
11:09
So every third episode on my show is a solo, and I, I solo a lot on that, on that topic.
11:14
And then I also started to interview some people in the realm of toxic bosses as well.
11:21
That, that helps build the conversation as well.
11:24
'cause I don't know everything.
11:25
I mean, there's other experts out there that, that know things that I don't, and that's been a real gift is talking about it and shining a light on a dark topic area.
11:37
What did you find, because you, you had this inkling, like it was starting to come up in conversation more and more often, and then when you started, opened up that conversation with the world about toxic bosses.
11:49
What happened because you started getting called as the expert on toxic bosses, right?
11:54
I'm starting to attract in a lot of clients that are reporting to a toxic boss, and it's helping them to get the heck out of it, to get past it, to figure out a way to exit outta the situation.
12:09
And there's six different options when you have a toxic boss.
12:12
It's not either, do I stay or go?
12:13
There's six different options.
12:15
And I, I really work with them on what's the best option for you.
12:19
And oftentimes their self-esteem has been impacted, their mental health has been impacted.
12:25
Sometimes their physical health, by the time they work with me, it's not a good situation.
12:30
So it's helping to get them back on their feet.
12:33
And the book taught me so much about the things that you need to do to get back on your feet and regain your confidence, and then get into the driver's seat of your own career again.
12:45
Yeah.
12:45
I think what was really cool about working with you on this process was seeing you, I mean you, you counsel people every day on this exact topic, but having to take a step back and look at it in the framework of the book, and like you said, now you're like, okay, I figured out through this research that there were actually eight different personas and types of toxic bosses that you might have, and having that.
13:08
Common language and the fact that, okay, I'm not alone and yes, my boss may be unique, but there are some common things and there are choices and, and sort of putting that framework around it was all part of what you did during the planning of this book.
13:24
So that's affected how you speak to people in the real world about it as well as mm-hmm.
13:30
Those conversations affected the book.
13:32
Would you say that's true?
13:34
A hundred percent.
13:35
And working with you, Suzy really helped me to frame it out in a way that, okay, what are the chapters, what's the flow?
13:42
What's the arc of it?
13:43
And then making sure it wasn't too academic.
13:45
'cause gosh, we could have citations in every paragraph if we wanted.
13:50
We could have research backing everything we say, but it just clutters the read.
13:55
And also, I have a lot of lived experience.
13:57
I have 25 years of helping people in their lives and work lives, and I just have a lot.
14:03
Of experience to share where I don't need every single thing cited.
14:07
And you helped me make sure it wasn't too, too research heavy, but also evidence-based and credible.
14:14
Well, this, it looks different.
14:15
One of the things that we actually focused on, because you had written academic books before, was a narrowing it down right from the get go.
14:24
This was not a book for your peers.
14:26
This is a book for every person working for a toxic boss.
14:30
And you, we, we really wanted it to be.
14:32
Approachable and readable so that it wasn't too difficult, right?
14:37
They're already in a difficult situation.
14:39
They wanna read a book that's gonna help them and not give them all kinds of stress and thinking about something new.
14:47
Yeah, it's very story based, so there's.
14:50
Stories throughout.
14:52
There's case examples from research participants in their own words about their own toxic boss story, and it's very relatable and I tell my own stories in there too, of toxic bosses of my postpartum depression.
15:05
I mean, I'm really open in the book because I think we need to be.
15:09
Open in this experience that we're all having in our human form where life is difficult and life is full of curve balls, but we are resilient and how can we get past these curve balls?
15:23
And I like to share my stories and to, for people to know that there is a way out from a toxic boss, and it's one of the most stressful things you'll go through in your career.
15:32
And the similarities to an abusive romantic partnership are so close.
15:39
Absolutely.
15:39
You know, you were able to spread that through and explain because it is, it's, it's not something that we just have to deal with.
15:46
And I think you were talking about the next generation and, and, and other countries where, where people are like, well, I just wanna run a food truck, or I wanna run my own business, or I wanna do something other than work in corporate.
15:56
And I can certainly relate to that.
15:57
I work 20 years at corporate, hopefully.
15:59
I mean, a lot of those years I was the boss and I had a boss, and hopefully I wasn't a toxic boss, but No, I know I wasn't a toxic boss.
16:08
Because I'd been through that.
16:09
Right.
16:10
But now I run my own business and it would take a lot, I gotta tell you, it would take a lot for me to ever go back another structure.
16:17
But times are changing and I think, you know, people are demanding more.
16:21
And so you're opening up that conversation.
16:24
Mm-hmm.
16:25
How is writing this book different from writing your novels?
16:30
Well, that's a great question.
16:31
So my novels losing cadence and finding Sophie.
16:37
Were an interesting experience.
16:40
I always had novels in me.
16:41
I have a very vivid and active imagination.
16:45
I'm a creator and I always wanted to write a novel.
16:48
So I started the losing cadence novel in 2002, and I remember precisely I was laid off from a company.
16:57
They got rid of their Canadian.
16:59
Operations.
17:00
It, it was a US acquisition of a Canadian company.
17:03
They got rid of all of us in one fell swoop and lost locked us outta the office, and it was.
17:08
I remember clearly it was such a shock to the system 'cause I was a high achiever.
17:13
I was traveling, I was doing all this stuff.
17:16
I knew I wanted to do a PhD in psychology, but I didn't have a PhD at that time.
17:22
I was working, I was successful in my own consulting world of working for someone else and I had a good boss at that time.
17:30
We were all chopped off of that.
17:32
And I went to a career counselor 'cause they gave us a package and I, I saw a career counselor and I said, I'm at a crossroads between a PhD in organizational psychology or becoming a novelist.
17:44
And it turned out becoming a novelist.
17:47
Was so high risk for a high achiever.
17:50
So high achievers don't like to take such a high risk that there's a chance of failing.
17:55
They like to take risks that are somewhat successful probabilities, and I knew if I could, I knew I could do the PhD 'cause I did the masters.
18:03
I knew it would be hard work, grit and determination, but I could do it novelist.
18:07
It was just this blank slate of, what the heck is this?
18:11
So then I started, she said, why don't you write on the side?
18:15
And so I did.
18:15
I started the novel.
18:17
Uh, the difference between the fiction and the nonfiction.
18:20
So for me, starting the novel, I didn't have a coach.
18:23
I didn't have Coach Susie in my life.
18:25
Didn't, she was doing her corporate career at that time.
18:28
I think I was, yeah.
18:29
And I was actually just starting my own novels.
18:32
Actually, that was probably way before I even started writing books.
18:35
I was in that high achiever space where I was like job or novelist and I wasn't willing to take the risk yet.
18:40
Yeah.
18:41
It was probably another, I think I started my books in 2011, so yeah, you were, oh wow.
18:46
So I got a head start on you, but it wasn't that great of a head start because I started the thing.
18:52
I didn't have a coach.
18:53
I started it and once I started it, it felt a state of flow.
18:56
I loved doing it and it was a few months of I, I started it, then I started the PhD. Then I just couldn't have the time to write because the PhD was just so much reading and so much classes and research and it was just heavy.
19:13
And then so, but every summer, the four months of summer, I'd have more space in my life and I'd start that novel again where I left off.
19:21
But then I'd have to go back to the beginning almost.
19:23
And it was eight years of that.
19:25
Eight years of inefficiency and.
19:29
Not what I would recommend at all.
19:31
And I never had a plan.
19:32
I never had an outline.
19:34
I guess I'm what you call a pants?
19:36
Cancer pants.
19:37
Yeah.
19:38
You fly by the right by the seat of your pants.
19:40
Yeah.
19:40
No, but I said it's like watching a movie and I'm the one sitting and watching the movie while I'm writing.
19:46
I don't know what's gonna happen next, but it's interesting.
19:49
It was just a complete.
19:51
Open book, let's say, and I found it relaxing, entertaining, and fun, which led me to, on my third mat leave, I had to have a week of bed rest.
20:00
And I said, dang it, I'm gonna finish losing cadence once and for all.
20:04
And I finished it a week before I had my daughter the week.
20:07
I had my daughter and then her name is Cadence as well, interestingly.
20:12
But then it took me another few years to actually get it published, and that's a whole other story.
20:18
So that was, yeah, way different than my nonfiction, which was outline framework, clan coaching.
20:26
I mean, you have so much in your life now, and that's what they find when I coach nonfiction, especially business books around that.
20:32
It's for, it is the Cadillac version of editing, right?
20:36
It's a lot of commitment to work with a coach all the way through.
20:39
It's a very different process, but it's like, all right, we're gonna get this done and we have to work.
20:45
Within your framework, you've got so much going on with your business and your life and everything else.
20:51
I was gonna ask you, because I didn't realize that you had started that book so early, and I always assumed that you.
20:57
Maimed.
20:58
Losing cadence for cadence, your daughter, but maybe it's the other way around.
21:02
That's Or they're not related.
21:05
Eight years.
21:05
Yeah.
21:06
Crazy.
21:07
The next book was 18 months.
21:08
That's another story.
21:10
Well, yes, and then the, the follow up to losing cadence.
21:13
Yeah.
21:13
It took you 18 months to write that.
21:16
Because I met Cheryl, so my son was in kindergarten, my middle son, and then Cadence would've been, what, three years old then?
21:24
So I was at the kindergarten classroom and I met Cheryl and I said, what do you do?
21:28
And she said, I'm an editor and what do you do?
21:31
I said, well, I'm an organizational psychologist, but I wrote a novel on the side and it's been sitting for three years gathering cobwebs.
21:38
And she said, I'd love to read it.
21:40
And she read it and she said, Laura.
21:41
This is better than Gone girl.
21:43
Why are you sitting on this?
21:44
And I said, 'cause I don't have time to do what's next and I don't even know.
21:48
And it was a confidence thing at the time too, I think.
21:52
I just was scared to put it out into the world.
21:54
And she said, oh no.
21:56
Gotta get this out into the world.
21:57
And it was Cheryl who helped me who.
22:00
Help things move along.
22:02
And she was my editor for it and my editor for my sequel because when losing Cadence came out, people loved it.
22:09
And then the ending was a cliffhanger.
22:11
And she said, Laura, you gotta write the sequel so it comes out in the next 18 months.
22:15
'cause now you have a readership.
22:16
And a following, and they need to get the sequel.
22:19
The first book is just the beginning, right?
22:21
Just the beginning.
22:22
And I'm like, oh my God.
22:23
And so somehow I fit that in by writing on weekends, and my husband was so gracious about that.
22:30
He said, I'll take the kids to a movie for the afternoon, take them out, write or go to a writing retreat, go to Haven in Montana for a few days.
22:39
And write.
22:40
So I did these writing weekends and that's the way I got it done.
22:44
That's also how I got my books done when I was working was I called it binge writing.
22:48
Right?
22:49
Like clear your weekend for.
22:51
My husband would take the kids to the science center, was was the thing kind of passed to the science center or the zoo.
22:56
And Saturdays I would go and sit at Starbucks for nine hours just right.
23:02
That was my thing and that's how I got it done.
23:04
But okay.
23:04
So those books, and I'm gonna digress a little bit.
23:08
I know we're talking about your nonfiction, but I wanna talk about your fiction books for a moment because, um, what year did losing cadence come out?
23:14
I'm gonna put you on the spot here, if you know, I think it was around 2015.
23:19
So 10 years ago, roughly your books came out and it's amazing to me.
23:26
This story is so, like many stories that I hear where writing the book is just the beginning, right?
23:34
You don't know where that's going to lead, and people are like loving it and it changed everything.
23:40
And then you're like, oh, now I gotta write another one.
23:41
Now I gotta promote them.
23:42
And now I gotta do all the things.
23:44
10 years later.
23:46
Those books are still a huge part of your life, right?
23:50
Oh, yeah.
23:50
'cause yeah, because you are looking to get them produced as a series.
23:56
Correct.
23:57
And that keeps shifting.
23:58
But essentially, this was funny.
24:01
So I wrote the sequel and then I had a choice to make.
24:05
Do I end it or do I leave it open for a trilogy?
24:09
And my life at that time is around 2017.
24:12
I had a lot going on, right.
24:14
I had a 7-year-old and 9-year-old, and a 12-year-old kid.
24:18
Oh, I, I hear you.
24:19
We have the same, my own business, actually, two businesses.
24:23
It was, and I decided I'm gonna end it.
24:25
I'm gonna end it.
24:26
I'll just have a novel and a sequel, and I end it.
24:28
And then readers were upset, they said.
24:30
What, why did you end it?
24:32
But the funny thing now is I could actually have a trilogy.
24:36
Like I have an idea where I could have a trilogy, and if it gets picked up, when it gets picked up, I will write that third novel in the trilogy and round that thing out.
24:45
Because it's, it's, oh, exciting.
24:47
You heard it here first listeners.
24:48
This is the first time hearing of this, that there's a, there's a third book in this series.
24:52
But, but that's the thing is sometimes, and, and that's what happened similar to what happened with my books as well, when they do really well.
24:59
I mean, we think that 10 years is a long time, but if you write great books, they can stand the test of time.
25:06
Yes, ideally it's a series.
25:08
We have loads of content.
25:10
It's a really good story for a series, and my producing partner from Hollywood and I, we've been pitching it in Canada and the us but it's, it's a tough market in the industry right now, and it seems like it's starting to land on doing a two-part feature film.
25:24
Feature film A and b. And one is the first novel and one is the sequel.
25:29
So that's where we're at right now.
25:31
But this keeps morphing and changing and it's, yeah, trends new industry for me.
25:35
So I'm learning all about this industry and how it works, and I will not give up until it's on some sort of screen there.
25:43
Oh, you will not give up.
25:44
It's fun to work with you.
25:46
It's like your goals are huge and you make them, and it's a marathon, but I'm trying.
25:51
Yeah, I'm doing what I can.
25:52
And the universe will do the rest and we'll hope for the best.
25:56
Yeah, absolutely.
25:58
So you benched the first novel.
26:00
There was a gap in the confidence, and so you weren't sure if it was good.
26:04
You weren't sure if you wanted to put it out.
26:05
What was your confidence different or was it different?
26:09
Writing this nonfiction book?
26:11
It was different.
26:12
I had developed more confidence in my career.
26:16
I, I think we all go through tough experiences.
26:19
I went through a tough acquisition of one of my company's experience and that helped grow me.
26:24
And then I've, I went through the pandemic as a business owner, and that was hard, and I just was gaining more and more.
26:32
Confidence in what I had to say.
26:35
And I remember my office manager from before COVID, she really believed in me and she bought me this mug.
26:41
You're awesome.
26:42
Keep that boop up.
26:44
I'm drinking outta that mug right now.
26:45
But she really believed in me and she said, Brene Brown can do it.
26:48
You can do it, Dr. Laurie.
26:50
You should have a bestselling book.
26:51
And I, I didn't believe it at that time.
26:54
I said, yeah, but there, you know, what do I do it on?
26:57
And blah blah.
26:58
Don't have time.
26:59
And.
27:00
Then, so I've been in touch with her.
27:01
I said, I think this book's going to go big because I think it's needed in the world, and a lot of people are suffering and struggling, and I can shine a light on it.
27:09
I can talk to the media about it, no problem.
27:12
And I felt like, okay, Jen, you believed in me, and now I believe in me.
27:17
I think it's the timing to get this book out, and we're gonna do it with a bang.
27:23
Oh, it's been just such a pleasure to watch you, as you said, high achiever.
27:27
You just go for it.
27:28
And you are also open to tons of advice and learning from those who've gone before.
27:35
Um, and so that's been really fun to watch.
27:37
You just seize onto the pieces that you can control.
27:40
You can't control everything, but you can do a lot.
27:42
And so when this all came together and you realize that this book was going to be what it was, and you sort of, you got the research, we figured out the framework.
27:52
Going for it.
27:53
Right.
27:53
And you've independently published in the past, but this time around you considered going traditional and you in fact had some really good interest early on from agents.
28:04
Did that surprise you, that agents were like, yeah, I think there's something here.
28:08
Was that part of like, was that exciting?
28:11
It was really exciting.
28:12
It really was.
28:13
But I also had some fear based energy around agents because we had tried to get it for losing cadence and we had sent out to a hundred different agents, US and Canada.
28:24
This was with Cheryl at the time.
28:26
Yeah, I was still a good friend of mine, but it essentially, I got rejected and the rejection hurt and.
28:33
Looking back on hindsight, I think if I had pitched it at writer's conferences face-to-face with agents, I would've had a better chance because I have a platform and I have a, a persona and stuff, but I didn't, it was just the query letters over email.
28:48
And at that time it was even mailed queries, I think, but mostly emails.
28:52
And yeah, the rejection was hard.
28:54
So going at it again with, I wish I'd quit sooner.
28:57
I felt that same anxiety around rejection.
29:01
And then I got some bites for sure, but it was also my platform needed to continue to grow.
29:06
And you can always compare yourself to others and think, well, my platform's not that big, but my platform.
29:12
I'm proud of where I've gotten it to and I just had to keep that self-talk from going negative because it is a real vulnerability to put yourself out to agents.
29:23
Absolutely, and I think ultimately the discussion that we had around this was timing and traditional can be very slow.
29:32
You had some timely research.
29:34
You felt the momentum, you can feel your platform growing and the conversation around toxic bosses is now.
29:40
And so yeah, ultimately you decided to go with a steamed hybrid publisher.
29:45
She writes press and how's been so far?
29:48
It's been really good.
29:49
So I really wanted to get it out in a timely fashion, which we are.
29:55
So it's been about a year or so of working with she writes, whereas a traditional publisher, that would've been two to three years probably.
30:03
Yeah.
30:03
Once the agent, the agent found the publisher, right?
30:06
Yes.
30:06
So there was a lot of unknowns in that process for you.
30:09
Yes.
30:09
It would've delayed another year, maybe even two, from this point in time.
30:14
'cause my book is out January 13th, 2026.
30:17
And I needed it out in the world.
30:20
And I love the idea of hybrid where I could be in the driver's seat, but I have a really good passenger that knows what they're doing versus purely self that I didn't wanna go that route again.
30:30
I wanted to go this route.
30:31
And she writes, distributes with Simon and Schuster, and they're really reputable and they've been in the business for.
30:38
Oh gosh.
30:38
Yeah, absolutely.
30:39
She writes this considered traditional, essentially in literary circles because of their high standards and their vetting process.
30:46
And as you said, your book is going to be distributed by Simon Schuster.
30:49
It's still eligible for awards that are typically only eligible for traditional publishers.
30:54
So you know, you're really good hands there.
30:57
It's coming out in paperback, an ebook, and you're just finishing up the audiobook.
31:03
What are launch plans?
31:07
So this, everything's gonna launch at the same time.
31:10
And I am having a huge launch event in my own city in Calgary, and I'm, I booked a theater because I wanna do a TED Talk for 15 minutes on the topic.
31:22
And I have a TEDx in me.
31:24
I have more than one in me, I just haven't had time you do to properly apply for the TEDxs.
31:29
But I'll do my TEDx for an audience of about.
31:32
200 in that theater.
31:33
I'll be there.
31:34
The invitation's going to be spread wide.
31:37
I have a big corporate community in Calgary.
31:39
I have a big family.
31:40
I have lots of social circle here and I'm gonna fill that theater, do a really great TEDx to get myself more speaker footage.
31:49
'cause speakers always need bigger theater footage.
31:51
So I have this beautiful theater.
31:53
It used to be the science center probably that your husband took your kids to with a goal.
31:58
It was already, it was already the new science center by the time my kids were born.
32:01
But yeah.
32:02
They've converted it into the most gorgeous theater, and then they have event space with beautiful windows and we're gonna have a beautiful event.
32:11
I'm hoping to get Toxic boss themed cocktails going on.
32:16
So, and just to make it a really memorable, beautiful event, AL'S and Ness Books is coming.
32:21
I really like to support independent local bookstores in the community.
32:26
If we don't support them, they'll go away, and I think they serve a really important.
32:30
Place in the world.
32:31
So I'm doing that launch here, then I'm doing one in Toronto two days later, and it'll be, uh, Ben McNally books in Toronto on the 15th.
32:40
Then I also got on the global morning news for a live interview, and then I'll be doing more media appearances there, hoping to be on the social and whatever else, wherever else will have me to talk about this issue.
32:54
I love that I, I think it's such a timely issue in the world, whether you're in government, whether you're in nonprofit, whether you're in private industry.
33:04
It affects every industry.
33:07
Yeah, definitely.
33:09
So everything is coming together.
33:11
It's just actually such a joy to watch Laura watch you do your thing, and to have this all come together for you is so exciting.
33:18
How has writing this book so far?
33:20
It's not even out yet.
33:21
It'll be out.
33:22
Uh, we'll be airing this just before the launch, but how has writing this book so far affected your business as a whole, or has it.
33:30
It's definitely been leading to more coaching clients, reaching out for coaching with dealing with a toxic boss, which I absolutely love helping people with.
33:41
I feel like I have so much to offer there.
33:44
Now You do.
33:45
Um, and just, it's just a delight to be able to help people even through their dark times through this, and I've been there.
33:52
I know what it's like.
33:52
It's really hard and.
33:55
I've had loved ones go through toxic bosses too, and I've seen the pain, so I thought, and then I'm doing more speaking.
34:02
I'm starting to do more speaking around it.
34:05
And in particular, HR audiences love this topic 'cause they're often trapped in the hierarchy of dealing with toxicity.
34:13
And then I'm speaking at a whistle blowing conference with the ombuds.
34:17
People of BC, for example, because whistle blowing relates to toxic bosses.
34:22
And my ultimate mission though is to help organizations eradicate toxic leadership from hiring to promotion to succession.
34:30
And I think there's a lot more that could be doing done could be happening there.
34:34
So we're doing that.
34:36
We're starting to work on consulting initiatives around.
34:40
That, and I think I have a book in me for organizations and how to eradicate it, but it may be a companion manual to, I wish I'd quit sooner.
34:49
Don't let them quit sooner.
34:50
Yeah, don't let them sooner.
34:52
Yeah, from the, from the other perspective.
34:55
I can see that.
34:55
And I love, I mean, part of what was exciting about this project from the beginning and the research that you were doing, you're giving a common language and a common approach to something and, and shining a spotlight to something that's kind of whispered about today.
35:10
And people like to complain about their bosses and complain about their workplace, but now giving it some.
35:17
Wait, and giving us language and giving us a common framework to take a look at these things is, is pretty exciting.
35:24
Game changer in the industry.
35:25
Really.
35:26
Thank you.
35:27
Congratulations.
35:27
I appreciate that.
35:28
Thanks for believing in me because Oh, you, I, I know.
35:32
Seen what you can do, Laura.
35:33
And we are not done yet.
35:35
We are not done yet.
35:35
Okay.
35:36
In your wildest dreams, what do you hope is to come?
35:40
What, what doors do you hope will open for you?
35:44
I really wanna be.
35:46
Continuing to do bigger and bigger stages to help shine a light on these topics.
35:52
Help people and organizations to thrive and be healthier, places to be.
35:57
'cause we spend a lot of our waking hours at work, whether it's remote or in person, it's at work.
36:04
And I think if we can have healthy, non-toxic places, we will be able to continue to grow and innovate and do great things.
36:13
So I really want to be.
36:16
A voice on that movement of healthier workplaces and stop toxic bosses.
36:22
Hashtag Stop Toxic Bosses.
36:25
Hashtag Stop Toxic Bosses.
36:27
I love it.
36:27
Okay, quick fire questions.
36:29
We are in the quick fire portion of our podcast as we wrap up.
36:34
So here they are.
36:35
Laura, you ready?
36:36
Yeah.
36:37
Okay.
36:37
We kind of answered this, but how long did it take you to write your first book?
36:43
Eight years.
36:44
Eight years.
36:45
Okay.
36:46
What was your first big break as an author where you knew Okay.
36:51
Kind of got the bug and was like, all right, I'm doing this thing.
36:54
This is real.
36:56
When I was 14, I started writing a novel, which is sort of similar to losing cadence in a different way.
37:04
So I started writing then never finished it, but that's when I started.
37:09
And that was your first big break, and I love that because it actually speaks to you.
37:13
I know you said you didn't have the confidence, but you knew.
37:16
You knew then that it was gonna happen.
37:18
Right?
37:20
I don't know if I knew, but I knew I loved writing.
37:23
I knew I had stories in my head to get out there.
37:27
Yeah.
37:28
Yeah.
37:28
I love that.
37:29
Okay.
37:30
Now, what's your best writing advice for those starting out, whether it's writing a novel or writing a business book?
37:38
Either one.
37:39
Kill perfectionism because perfectionism is a beast.
37:43
And I see that getting in the way of a lot of people because they think that they can't share anything unless it's perfect and you can work for your whole life on one chapter of something if you wanted.
37:54
Yeah, it's never.
37:56
We're never gonna be perfect.
37:58
Even a Pulitzer Prize winning book has, you know, things that could be better, but it's about progress.
38:04
It's about making progress, even if it's a little bit at a time.
38:08
So even if it's all you can do is two hours a week on a Sunday, then do that two hours a week, do pockets of time, however little they are, and let the writing flow and don't focus on perfect.
38:23
It's progress, not perfection.
38:26
Yeah, I'd love that.
38:27
Great, great advice.
38:29
Okay, Dr. Laura, where can we find you and your books?
38:32
We'll drop all the, all the links in the show notes.
38:35
Where can we find you?
38:36
Sure.
38:36
The best place to find me is Dr. Laura.
38:40
All is one word, Dr. Laura, D-R-L-A-U-R-A-L-I-V-E.
38:46
That's my website.
38:47
And on the website is a page called New Book.
38:50
And the new book tab at the top is where the new book is.
38:55
And you'll find me and, and my novels and and such are.
38:59
Yeah.
38:59
And you could pre-order it now, but it's going to be available for actually purchasing on January 13th.
39:05
Is that right?
39:06
Exactly.
39:07
Yeah.
39:07
On all the, and it's available for 2026 before, but it's, it launches January 13th on all the platforms.
39:15
So That's exciting.
39:17
It's so exciting.
39:18
Uh, so go grab the book.
39:20
See, it's actually a masterpiece of.
39:23
Taking this nebulous idea and the way that Laura has broken down such a really cool topic.
39:29
Uh, if you've ever had a toxic boss in your life, if you're in that situation right now, thank you so much for coming on today, Laura.
39:36
Can't wait to see what's next with you.
39:38
Well, thank you for all your support and believing in me.
39:42
Thank you.
39:49
Thanks for tuning into the show.
39:50
Don't Tell Writing podcast with me, Susie Vidori.
39:53
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39:59
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40:03
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40:10
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40:12
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40:15
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40:27
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40:29
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40:31
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40:36
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40:46
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40:48
Remember that book you're writing is gonna open doors that you haven't even thought of yet, and I can't wait to help you make that it the absolute best it can be.
40:58
See you again right here next week.