Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to James Lark about his choice of The Invasion (5/8)

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Talks to James Lark about his choice of The Invasion (5/8) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:33
Hamster with a Blunt Pen Knife for doing quicker Welcome back
0:37
to Hamster with a Blunt Pen Knife, the Doctor Who commentary
0:41
podcast. As if I sound more energetic
0:45
than I did in episode 4. That's because many moons have
0:50
passed since that last recording and I've had much sleep,
0:53
including four hours this morning, which I shouldn't have
0:55
had. But there we go.
0:57
We are here today to talk about The Invasion Episode 5 moving
1:01
pictures. Exciting.
1:03
And I'm still here with the delight that is Mr. James Lark.
1:07
Hello, James. Hello, Joe.
1:10
Was you thinking? Fuck me, how long is this
1:12
monologue going to go? No, I'm just, I'm just jealous.
1:15
Just jealous that you've had more sleep because I've had less
1:18
sleep. I'll tell you what, right?
1:20
I mean, given that we were sharing a lot of personal
1:22
stories in the first half of this, I mean, so we woke up this
1:25
morning, right? And I went downstairs and I
1:28
watched a couple of episodes of Earth Shock that I'm doing for a
1:30
commentary. And then he goes, oh, I just
1:32
fancy a nap. So we went back up at 10, all
1:34
right? And then every sort of half an
1:36
hour, one of us is going, oh, we should get up.
1:38
And then the other one just grabbed ourselves into like a
1:40
spoon and was like, no, you're trapped.
1:43
And then we fell asleep again. And the only thing that drove us
1:46
out of the bed. Are you ready for this?
1:48
I thought, we need to get too upset when I mention this
1:50
because I know what you think about the episode.
1:53
A giant wasp came into the room. And the buzzing was immense.
1:58
It was. Huge.
1:59
Was it as big as the one in that episode?
2:01
No. Absolutely not.
2:03
And was the was the was the dialogue by Gareth Roberts?
2:06
Oh my God, there were Christie titles here, there and
2:09
everywhere being espoused. No, but it was big anyway.
2:12
Eventually that that's what drove me out of bed.
2:15
And here I am for the recording. Absolutely riveting stuff, hey?
2:18
Pretty riveting. I mean, thank goodness the Wasp
2:20
got you, because otherwise you might still be there.
2:23
Oh, I love my bed. Well, look, James, I need to
2:28
talk about something that you and I talked about in the first
2:30
half. OK, OK, you're.
2:32
Looking a bit scared right now and that is about your
2:36
triumphant YouTube series My Teenage Diaries, which you
2:40
mentioned in the. First half and as promised I
2:43
went and watched the whole bunch that night.
2:46
I watched them all in one. Go.
2:49
Oh man, you are wasted. I'll tell you what, you are a
2:52
damn fine Edison. Well, yeah, I I had fun making
2:57
those. You, yeah, OK.
3:00
No, that was funny. It was like it was the the the
3:03
fun of taking diary entries that I wrote when I was 13, no
3:08
12/19/92 and and yeah and, and delivering them like kind of
3:13
high drop. The idea was to and each one to
3:15
kind of go out on location and set up shots beautifully.
3:19
Snowy forest, snowy forest. Well, it's, it's snowed.
3:22
And I thought, well, I've got to get out there in the snow.
3:25
And yeah, yeah, I I just thought that.
3:28
You had better production value than the average classic Doctor
3:31
Who, and I'm sure you had less of a budget.
3:33
That's, well, yeah, probably true.
3:36
In both cases. I I see myself as kind of close,
3:39
more aligned to BBV than than BBC in terms of production
3:44
values. Speaking of someone who has
3:46
chowed down on plenty of BBV lately, BBV.
3:49
Yeah, I will say that again, sorry.
3:56
I'm. Distracting myself yours, your
3:59
production value was far, far. Super.
4:02
Everyone please check out my teenage Diaries.
4:04
Yeah, Absolutely Fabulous. Or just put James Lark into
4:07
YouTube. It is a delight.
4:09
Well, I'm glad you enjoyed and actually you because we had that
4:14
conversation about my my, my romantic failures when I was
4:18
around the time that I bought the invasion.
4:20
And I'm sure that you're more empathetic listeners have been
4:23
as concerned about 15 year old James Lark as they are about
4:27
Tobias Vaughan and his plan to take over the world.
4:30
I did actually. I went back to those Diaries and
4:33
it's been quite, I'm quite grateful because I've had a
4:36
pretty tough time at work lately.
4:38
And nothing takes you away from your present day problems like
4:44
immersing yourself in your problems from another time.
4:49
How do they compare? Oh, I mean equally traumatic,
4:53
but I mean equally things that that may seem a little bit silly
4:58
when you're at when you're an adult, feel just as serious when
5:01
you're 15 years old. One of the things that I find
5:05
compelling. I mean, I got the impression you
5:07
enjoyed 15 year old James Larks Diary and and might be
5:11
interested to hear a couple of other excerpts.
5:13
Please. Yes.
5:15
Come on. Fuck, it's about that shit.
5:16
Well, the invasion does. It's sort of present because of
5:19
course the Invasion is a is a new VHS.
5:21
It's there. I've been slightly disappointed
5:24
viewing it first time around with.
5:26
Cybermen not enough invasion. That's what I felt.
5:29
Within weeks, I mean within a couple of weeks of investing in
5:34
the invasion, I have asked out said romantic interest in the
5:38
most cowardly way you can imagine, by by scribbling a note
5:42
in a physics lesson, which she responded to in a similarly
5:47
cowardly way by saying she would think about it. 15 James 15 I
5:53
was very. It's not how I was communicating
5:56
with people at 15, but go on, keep going.
5:58
I think you're going to, you're going to get an insight into how
6:01
I was communicating as a 15. A lot of notes were passed, a
6:04
lot of things were left unsaid. The day after I wrote this
6:09
cowardly note to her, the, the girl in question, by the way, I,
6:12
I'm going to have to name her because her name is frequently
6:17
dropped. And so it's Sally.
6:19
Sally, are you listening, Sally? I don't think you are.
6:24
Anyway, so I've written a cowardly note.
6:26
The day afterwards my diary entry says I've had a pretty non
6:29
eventful day. Really.
6:31
Sally still hasn't decided, I've got a cold and I had a history
6:35
coursework test. Oh boy.
6:37
Unfortunately, I don't think I'm getting very far with Sally in
6:41
games. I nearly died because I'm
6:43
chronically ill and we went outside for games.
6:46
It was freezing. I just stood around in the last
6:48
game, shivering uncontrollably. I almost went straight home
6:51
instead of going to orchestra, but in the end I didn't, and I
6:54
didn't talk to Sally at all. You see things, things are
6:58
pretty serious. I went to bed as soon as I got
7:00
home. Now I'll be off school tomorrow
7:03
and Sally will decide not to go out with me, and it'll be bloody
7:06
awful. The one advantage is I can watch
7:08
all my new Doctor Who videos. You see, swings and roundabouts.
7:13
Were you, I'll Did you get to watch all the Doctor Who?
7:15
Videos Do you want to find out next day?
7:18
This is what it says as I thought I had a day off today.
7:24
I watched both Peter Cushing Doctor Who films with relish.
7:28
I then watched. I then watched The Invasion.
7:32
Oh, it wasn't as good as the first time.
7:36
Oh no. When Judith, that's my sister,
7:39
got home I convinced her to watch Daleks Invasion of Earth
7:43
2150 AD with me. That film must be good if I can
7:46
watch it twice in one day and not get bored of it.
7:48
Judith loved it, as I knew she would.
7:51
It appealed to me as a 7 year old.
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Not that Judith's 7, but she's close.
7:56
The Radio Times did say it would appeal to young children,
7:59
especially the bits in London which are my best bits.
8:02
Perhaps I'm a 7 year old at heart but the Telegraph called
8:06
it creaky, which I won't forgive lightly.
8:09
When I grow up I'll buy TV quick.
8:12
It's cheaper and gave Daleks Invasion of Earth three stars
8:15
out of four. Three out of four Wowzers.
8:19
Well done TV. Quick.
8:20
Oh God. I love your diary so much.
8:23
Well, so you as you can see that as as my romantic life stalled,
8:28
Doctor Who was there for me and I think that's but the.
8:31
Invasion is, quality wise, diminishing returns.
8:35
Well, this is this is what we find What?
8:37
Happened. When did your opinion change on
8:39
this I? Don't know, I don't know.
8:42
I think, I think one of the issues is that I was off school
8:49
watching the invasion all in one go and I don't think it works
8:54
terribly well like that. I agree, in fact I think now I
8:59
very rarely watch all of classic who in one lump.
9:02
I'll do 2 sometimes but I I preferred now just to do 1A.
9:06
Single episode is a great thing, and you realize how precisely
9:11
paced they were for that manner of viewing, don't you?
9:15
I mean, the thing that screamed at me, yeah, watching the
9:21
Invasion for this. I'm watching Earth Shock for
9:24
another podcast and then watching the latest series of
9:27
Doctor Who. So I'm talking about Joy to the
9:29
World, Robot Revolution and Lux. Yeah, is.
9:35
I can't believe I'm going to say this.
9:37
The lighting back in the day was so much better than it is now.
9:41
It's so much more atmospheric. I just couldn't.
9:44
The scenes that we're going to watch today in the sewers with
9:47
the shadowy Cybermen, it's so vivid and atmospheric in Earth
9:52
shock. The scenes of the the, the black
9:54
androids, sort of like shadows morphing around the caves.
9:58
You can barely see them, but you're just aware that they're
10:00
there. It took a while though, didn't
10:02
it, for them to work out how to light in colour.
10:04
Because I do think that with this season of Patrick Trousen,
10:08
you get the best lighting in Doctor Who for a good few years
10:11
to come, probably until probably until Hinchcliffe comes along.
10:15
Because they really knew how to light for black and white.
10:18
And the problem they had when they went into color was that a
10:21
lot of people still watching in black and white.
10:22
So they weren't even properly lighting for color.
10:25
They were trying to think, well, this is what it will look like
10:27
on a black and white TV screen as well.
10:29
And and it blew and it it becomes flatter and less well
10:33
defined, whereas they're fearlessly using lights and
10:36
darks and shadows in the in the way that black and white films
10:40
did. I don't want to like totally RIP
10:42
modern day Doctor Who because of course they're lighting it in so
10:45
many sophisticated ways now. You know, they have actual a
10:48
team of lighting engineers in there, you know, lighting it
10:52
from every which direction and making it look very naturalistic
10:55
and blah, blah, blah. But like you go back to latter
10:59
day Moffett to the Capaldi era and then Jodies era and the
11:03
lighting is out of this world. There's some really great use of
11:08
sort of shadows and and light to create vivid imagery.
11:12
I don't know what's happened, but in the last couple of years
11:15
they're light in everything. Very the contrast feels like
11:18
it's it's not my TVI promise. It's really bright and
11:21
everything's sort of flat. Go watch Joyce of the World
11:24
again. Do you remember those so flat
11:25
when Doctor Who came back in 2005, it looked a bit funny and
11:30
they and. It took a while.
11:31
It took them a while to work out again.
11:34
I think it took them a while how to work out how to how to grade
11:37
it. I mean, that's part of the
11:39
problem is that it's not in the hands of just the lighting team
11:42
now. Whereas anything from the
11:45
classic era, what you see on screen is what the lighting team
11:48
did because they didn't do grading really.
11:50
And, you know, except very, very slightly, maybe towards the the
11:54
end, but very unadventurously. Whereas now the the problem is
11:59
someone can go, well, that bit's in shadow and I can pull that
12:02
out. So it's all even.
12:03
And there is that danger that you even everything out to the
12:05
point that there are no lights and darks and it's all this
12:08
brightly lit, which I think is the.
12:10
I mean, I don't know who has a say in the final look of the
12:13
thing, but one suspects that Disney have got their guy in
12:16
there. And there's probably a team of
12:18
people saying, yeah, well, this is this needs to be better.
12:21
You look. Prettier.
12:22
Yeah, make it look prettier, make it pop more A.
12:25
Bit Moody, you know. Where is the invasion?
12:28
Bloody? I mean we absolutely were all
12:31
over the line in the first half. Do you remember in the the lift
12:35
shaft? Dude.
12:36
Gorgeous. Yeah.
12:37
On when he was on location on the roof, Yeah, and all the
12:41
stuff like that. But man, we haven't seen
12:43
anything yet. I mean, we probably should press
12:45
play in a second. We probably.
12:46
Should. But some of the lighting coming
12:48
up is amazing. Now the last thing I'm going to
12:50
say before we go in is in this sort of 15 minute preamble again
12:55
is you get your bang for your buck with a Hamperwell blunt pen
12:57
knife, all right? Certainly do.
13:00
We promised you a four hour commentary and you're going to
13:02
get an 8 hour one all right No is I did actually put out a
13:07
little feelers for ham fam to say look any questions about the
13:10
invasion send them our way, because I always worry when
13:13
you've got 4 hours to feel that sometimes I don't know why I
13:16
should be worried with you I mean listen to me.
13:17
I haven't shut up for the last 15 minutes, but what did happen
13:22
was we were inundated with questions from many, many
13:27
people, Questions and opinions. So I'm sort of going to pepper
13:30
them in as we go. All right, You know, there's,
13:32
there's plenty of great stuff to watch as well.
13:34
James counters in. Or I'll just keep talking.
13:35
OK, we're we're going to watch episode 5 of The Invasion.
13:40
Thank you SO. Much in 54321 and we're we're
13:50
back in to this this horrible grainy coffee that is on iPlayer
13:56
for reasons no one can understand.
13:59
Come on James, now look, I need you to take me at hand more like
14:02
you did during that Battlefield 1.
14:03
Do you remember when you started that one telling me off straight
14:05
away? Did I?
14:07
Oh yes, I did, didn't I? Oh bloody.
14:11
I'm knocking things off the desk.
14:12
You're the one who's had more sleep than me.
14:14
You, you. You have to.
14:16
I've been watching lots of Jesus Worcester.
14:17
I think I'm turning. Into Worcester.
14:19
You know, I've just been going through actual trauma and
14:21
remembered trauma from 1995 S Oh yes, the psych man being Yeah,
14:26
so the psych, there they are. And straight away, it looks a
14:30
little less sexy than it did when it was animated.
14:32
But ah, the glory of this cyber design.
14:35
I mean, I can summarize basically 2 1/2 hours of
14:38
conversation. The first half in that we
14:40
basically said the animation was sexier and more stylish, but.
14:46
We did say that. Naturally in the live action
14:50
one, what are the side men being birthed out of cocoons like
14:54
that? We I think we did we not
14:57
discussed this last time. Look at that look.
14:59
That's a very brief shot and and to go to have gone to the effort
15:02
to go to Regents Park and the canal and film them in a middle
15:06
canoe boat. Douglas Canfield for.
15:08
You Douglas Canfield? Yeah, Brilliant.
15:11
It gives it. So it just gives it straight
15:12
away. It gives it out atmosphere.
15:13
Now you've got Isabel in the unit base, so this is where her
15:16
and her Dolly soldier Jimmy. Yes.
15:19
Flirting outrageously. This is all flirting, isn't it,
15:22
I? Know, I was sort of taking tips
15:23
as I was watching it in preparation for this, you know?
15:27
Well, you, but did you? You went out to dinner earlier,
15:30
did you? Did you use any of these lines?
15:32
I don't need tips to flirt, good grief.
15:34
Go listen to the other. 1000 episodes of this book.
15:37
Maybe 15 year old me should have studied this more closely.
15:43
Yeah, no, I thought, I think if you'd have said to her, hey, are
15:46
you stinking rich? Yeah, you can look after me.
15:49
She may have run a mile. That's right.
15:52
Now, what's occurring here now? Well, so catch up with the plot
15:55
again. We, well, the plot kind of
15:57
restarts here, which as I said last time, I think this is a
16:01
very sensible way of structuring an 8 part story is that we have
16:03
kind of have a second story here.
16:05
I love that Zoe reacts as though the doctors he's known it's the
16:12
Simon men, but he hasn't quite said it.
16:14
But she she knows him well enough to know that that's what
16:16
he's worried about. I also love the fact that Jimmy
16:19
goes. That's what those UFOs were.
16:21
And she Oh yes, on the dark side of the moon.
16:23
You remember that from episode 1?
16:26
A month ago, literally for us. Oh, so we're still wearing that
16:31
fabulous feather bow. I believe that it's not in
16:34
colour. Do you think that the old Billy
16:39
Rush, Billy Rutledge is back? The Brigadier is having a
16:42
serious conversation with him. It's like Battle of the
16:44
Mustaches here, isn't it? See, it's still not quite.
16:47
It's as a as a yeah, youngster, maybe I was frustrated that the
16:51
Cybermen had unearthed from the cocoon.
16:54
And yet we're still in spy fi mode here, aren't we?
16:59
They're still at for a couple of episodes.
17:02
They are still, forgive me, kept in the shadows, absolutely in
17:06
the sewers. But I don't know, I think that's
17:08
good if you've got. Oh, I agree, yeah.
17:10
Not having them burst out of the sewers until the end of episode
17:14
6. Is it 6 or 76?
17:17
It's the end of Episode 6. Yeah.
17:19
I just wonder how frustrating that one of the points that Toby
17:25
Hadaker's made in his recent commentary in the War Games is
17:27
the number of weeks that kids have to go in this year without
17:31
monsters at all, having come from an era where they had a
17:34
different monster every week. And it was very monster heavy.
17:37
And you think about the the number of sidemen you see in
17:39
Tomb of the Cybermen, less so in Wheel in Space, but they still
17:43
got that kind of weekly dose of monster in this season.
17:47
There are a number of stories without any monsters at all.
17:50
You know, the Mind Robber is not a monster story.
17:52
The invasion you, you go, you have to go 4 weeks without any
17:55
Cybermen. And then after the Seeds of
17:58
Death, you're into the war games and there are no monsters.
18:01
All the space pirates also doesn't have monsters, does it?
18:04
Yeah. So it's whether this more adult
18:08
way of Doctor of doing Doctor Who wasn't quite pitch right for
18:14
the audience they then had in the way that they they somehow
18:18
managed to pick up with Season 7 and just capture the public
18:24
imagination. And look at the invasion now.
18:27
Look at Season 7 now. They're stories that have aged
18:30
like a fine wine, right? Yeah.
18:33
So stories that we might have found a bit boring when we were
18:35
seven years old, but absolutely adorned.
18:38
And I've got a question for you here from Fraser Gregory.
18:40
I'm going to ask you, OK? Have you?
18:45
Got any other questions? I've got plenty.
18:48
So let's start. Let's start at the top.
18:52
Would this story be better or worse if it were made as a part
18:54
of Season 7? I don't think it would be as
18:57
much fun if if it was made for Season 7.
19:02
I think this has a unique atmosphere, which is very much.
19:08
It's partly the black and whiteness and it's very much to
19:12
do with Patrick Troughton being the doctor.
19:14
I think John Perth, we in in that role taking it more
19:17
seriously would make for some, if you think about season 7,
19:20
like the scenes of the plague in the Silurians, They're they're
19:23
they're they're fun and they're previewer, but they're more like
19:27
a scene from a hard hitting docudrama than the Doctor Who
19:31
that we're used to here. Does feel like a documentary
19:34
sometimes. Yeah, doesn't it?
19:35
Whereas this is in, this is in no danger of taking itself that
19:39
seriously. And this and the kind of verite
19:42
aspects of the location footage, I just just give it just enough
19:46
edge. But the fact that it's Cybermen
19:48
there, I I'm not sure how well Cybermen would have fit into the
19:51
the whole outlook of Season 7. Plus, you know, remember revenge
19:55
and assignment when they went into colour?
19:56
It took a little. While to get it took a while.
19:59
Yeah, yeah. I think as well.
20:01
We will pack. We will.
20:03
So I'm just restarting the Packer counter.
20:05
Oh, you right, that's 39. Oh bloody. 39 already, yeah,
20:10
with Isabel you've got that injection of swinging 60s in
20:14
this as. Well, you have.
20:16
Which I love. I do feel like, I mean, season
20:20
7, I think is is very impressive in a lot of ways.
20:25
It's a bit of a slog when you take it all in one go, as as
20:28
many people will be discovering with their new Blu-ray sets.
20:31
Because. Because I assume when I do it,
20:33
I'm strictly yeah. Yeah.
20:34
Well, I mean, it's, it's impressive and it's unique
20:39
because for, for, for for those reasons.
20:41
But, but it's a lot in one go. It's a lot in one go.
20:50
I'm like you said it in the first time.
20:51
Weirdly enough, this is an episode longer than all of
20:54
those. Yes, season 7.
20:55
And yet I struggle less with this than any of those.
21:00
I think you don't get villains like Tobias Vaughan in season 7,
21:05
do you? You don't get villains.
21:07
No, it's all a bit kind of. Everyone's a bit morally,
21:11
morally ambiguous, which is interesting, but.
21:15
Less vivid, although saying that I do love it when Trout is
21:19
winding up Kevin Stoney later on in the story, but I would love
21:23
just to see one scene between per wig.
21:27
You are trying to invade the world it.
21:31
Would be great. Very.
21:33
Visible Doctor. Did you know what?
21:36
I'd love to have a wall that slides up like that.
21:39
Because it can probably be arranged.
21:43
Would you consider you could, You could probably, I tell you
21:45
what, if you had a cyber controller designed like that,
21:47
you could probably kind of have it have it as a drinks cabinet
21:50
or something. There's a lot of glassware in
21:52
that cyber controller. I want drinks cabinet.
21:55
Is that what you was thinking of?
21:56
OK. Well, I was thinking of a drinks
21:57
cabinet. What would you think this is to
21:59
myself? Let's just say only I'll have
22:03
the key code to it, all right? Oh look, he's still doing that
22:08
thing with his eye. Yeah, it's the funny the the I'm
22:12
I'm taking control of you Cyber controller.
22:14
Have you seen him in anything else?
22:16
Is that a genuine Stony tick or is that a character choice?
22:21
I think it's a character choice. I'm trying to think of other
22:23
things that he's been in. He's in an episode of The New
22:26
Avengers. I'm not going to cast any
22:29
aspersion on his eyes in the Daleks master plan.
22:31
I'm going to leave that one completely quiet.
22:34
It's quite hard to tell what his eyes are doing in the Daleks
22:37
Master plan. I oh, here we go.
22:39
More Cybermen coming. Out This is absolutely great.
22:42
What do we think of this cyber design?
22:45
Gorgeous. I I love, love.
22:47
That might be my favorite helmet, actually, Yeah.
22:51
It seems to me really controversial.
22:53
You can. You can I.
22:54
Really love. The rise of the Cyberman Age of
22:57
Steelheads. I love them Silence.
23:03
I just think it there there's a so there's something very
23:06
artistic about them that I really like.
23:08
Yeah, I I think it's a problem with with and it's goodness
23:13
knows it's a problem with a lot of 80s Doctor Who as well.
23:15
It's a bit over designed and I feel like there's, I mean, this
23:21
design partly comes from necessity.
23:23
I, I think they've added some space in the in the head so that
23:27
people stop kind of passing out and having panic attacks.
23:29
But that actually kind of gives them that that's now very
23:34
familiar profile that that was then adopted in the 80s and
23:39
which I think works really well. It's just I, I think there's a
23:43
blandness to their face as well. It's not over designed.
23:45
It's, it's, it's workmen like in and I mean, that's a compliment.
23:50
It's it's, it's got a simplicity to it that is missing from every
23:54
subsequent cyber design. But I don't know how I feel
23:57
about the sort of spongy trousers and that that they wear
24:00
in this design. I'm not sure if the silhouette
24:04
is the best. How do you mean spongy trousers?
24:07
Well, you'll see well later on when they're walking around
24:09
outside some pools. All right, you can just sort of.
24:11
See, it's really metal. It's a nice no in case they.
24:14
Fall over, you know. But you So what do you prefer?
24:17
The kind of metallic flares. I prefer actually the that sort
24:22
of scrunchy silver material they've got in the 80s.
24:25
Well, yeah, there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a good
24:28
argument to be made. I think that that the Cybermen
24:30
should be more scrunchy and more as if it's a a a life support
24:37
suit with stuff going with stuff going on inside with tubes and
24:40
stuff rather than metal which is just generic robot.
24:44
Oh, interestingly, I was listening to Spare Parts this
24:47
week. I'm doing a lot of Cybermen at
24:49
the moment, Earth Shock, Spare Parts and the the, the idea of
24:53
those ghoulish Ghostface Cybermen from the temp planet
24:57
and that, yes, but you can hear like liquid and things.
25:00
So they are supposed to be life support, you know, costumes and
25:04
things. And they're really leading into
25:05
that, Yeah. It's a thing that the Cybermen
25:07
have very, very rarely actually been shown as.
25:11
And maybe I mean, they look so cool as robots, don't they?
25:16
I mean, that shot that we just saw of them going down into the
25:18
sewer, they look brilliant because they, because they gleam
25:22
and in this lighting, in this, with these shadows, they, they
25:26
ping in a way that is absolutely mesmerizing, I think.
25:30
Especially when they're in the sewers Light.
25:32
Yes, they look stunningly good. I've got to say as well.
25:36
Another thing I realised about the Cybermen this week is I
25:40
think I prefer the Cybermen as heavies rather than as sort of a
25:48
race of people that talk. So I love, I really like the
25:52
Cyberman who's down in the sewers here.
25:53
I love the Cybermen that burst out of the thing.
25:55
You don't really get talking Cybermen in this, do you?
25:58
And I really. Like about this, they talk, they
26:00
say a few lines I think, which I think is another thing that I
26:03
wasn't keen on when I first saw it.
26:06
We've had a question about that, I believe about the Cybermen as
26:09
heavies. Oh well, keep talking, I'll try
26:11
and find it. I think we we we also talked
26:15
over one of my favorite lines, which was Packer saying just
26:17
enough to bring it out of its cocoon.
26:20
Ah yeah, David Gillespie Pratt says all the Cybermen wasted in
26:24
this story. They appear at the end of
26:25
episode 4, then don't appear at all much and only have 3 or 4
26:29
lines of dialogue. Or is the threat of their
26:31
presence enough to carry the story?
26:34
I think the threat to their presence is more effective than
26:38
it would have been having them in in every scene and it's well
26:44
paced. Again, they there's enough of
26:47
them in the later episodes and and we get our full glorious
26:53
Cyberforce in the final episode, which is how it should be.
26:57
So every every week delivers more.
27:00
I think episode 7 is maybe the most disappointing one in that
27:03
respect in that you get the iconic shot, you get the
27:05
invasion, and then you don't really see the invasion.
27:08
And then it's soldiers and, and, and spies and the Brigadier and,
27:12
and guns and not many Cybermen. But no, I think it's I think
27:17
Doctor Who is always well judged when it shows you a bit of
27:21
something. But you know, think again of the
27:23
Ice Warriors and the fact that you just get one in the first
27:27
instance before the others are woken up and the others are kept
27:30
very much in the background because some of the costumes are
27:32
not as good and it's just knowing their resources.
27:35
But think of the Times Now. Now we're in CGI territory and
27:39
you can show Cyberman invasions. We can't really remember that
27:43
stuff, do we? Not in the way we remember this.
27:45
Even though it's a couple of shots, it's well chosen shots.
27:48
Which which? Which was more effective in in
27:50
2005? A single Dalek?
27:54
Yeah, doing a massacre or millions of CGI Daleks floating
27:58
through space. I mean, when I think of the the
28:01
memorable images from that first year, it's that Dalek chained up
28:06
and it's the Slovene ship going into Big Ben.
28:08
Those are like the two. And again, that's using London
28:10
landmarks in a vivid way in a couple of shots that Cyberman
28:16
that's just been blasted with the, what's it called again,
28:19
Cereba mentor. That's right, there's his, his,
28:21
his machine, which at this stage still needs headphones.
28:24
You still need to get close enough to actually put
28:26
headphones on. I think it's not a great design,
28:28
Tobias. You need to.
28:29
You need to keep working on it. When I first watched this, the
28:31
idea of an insane Cyberman roaming around in the sewers was
28:36
the most exciting idea I could. Yes.
28:38
Think of the Any poor sword that comes across this thing is going
28:42
to get beaten to death. No, it's wonderful.
28:45
And the scream as well. That weird scream.
28:49
I think we could do with more of that as well that I, I feel like
28:52
again like 15 year old me and 60s demographic and probably
29:00
most of the people working Doctor Who are thinking Cybermen
29:03
wrote. Like those cloth things we had
29:04
first of all, weren't terribly successful, but we want them to
29:07
look metallic and glorious and and strong.
29:10
I think the horror of the side men is is at its best when you
29:15
realize that the side men are barely surviving.
29:19
They're not the Daleks, they're not an undefeatable race.
29:24
They are the quote UN quote pathetic tin soldiers skulking
29:30
around space and they're and they're using human parts
29:34
because it's the only way they can survive.
29:36
So I feel like as aesthetically much though I I love the side
29:42
men as tall silver giants. I I think that the program maybe
29:48
went down a bit of a a blind alley with that.
29:51
I just think the program, because of the audience, is
29:54
designed to capture. You can't really do the Cybermen
29:58
as well as they could be done. That could be absolutely
30:01
horrific. I think that's right and.
30:02
When they do do it horrifically in stuff like Attack of the
30:05
Cybermen, you see someone where their guts hollowed out or their
30:08
hands being crushed and turned into a Cybermen.
30:10
It's. And it feels totally wrong.
30:12
Yeah, it. Feels a bit perverse in Doctor
30:14
Who. Yeah, I agree.
30:16
It's very, do you know, I realized as well, I'm going to
30:18
stop talking about rice aside men in the age of steel in a
30:20
minute. But I do think it's underrated.
30:22
They do borrow a lot of imagery from this as well.
30:25
Those Cybermen down in in the ice tunnels in the second
30:29
episode in the Age of Steel, do you remember they they sort of
30:32
going? Oh yes.
30:33
That's very like the Cyberman. Very much like the Cyberman in
30:36
the scene. Yeah, and there's a scene in
30:38
that where somebody, you know, he turns off all the cyber
30:42
conditioning and someone's staring in a mirror, Yes.
30:44
And screaming. And it's almost the same sort of
30:46
scream that that Cyberman. With the cerebrum between, yeah,
30:49
yeah, cerebral. Easy for me to say I'm enjoying
30:53
Tobias eyebrow keeps getting a little bit higher each time.
30:56
It's definitely a decision. He's he's decided that Tobias is
31:00
going to go mad by the end of it and.
31:03
Stony said. Right.
31:04
Look, I can't get my eyebrow that high, so can you just put a
31:06
small bit of invisible wire and tuck it up a bit more?
31:10
In each scene please. Oh, do you know why?
31:13
Actually, now I'm having a good look at that cyber planner.
31:16
It does just look like a load of jam jars, doesn't it?
31:20
Just imagine. Imagine if it was cocktail
31:22
ingredients and you'd slid your wall open and said such your
31:25
guests what? What would it be?
31:27
Gin and tonic. To be fair, James, what would
31:29
be? Behind my wall would look very
31:31
like that, just for a different purpose.
31:36
Oh boy. OK.
31:38
Also we're we're still talking about the plan.
31:40
Still talking. No, no, look at his face there.
31:42
He's, he's still convincing himself that he can talk, that
31:45
he's in control. But you just like the decision
31:48
to raise his eyebrow a bit further every time.
31:50
Is a man having to put more effort in to keep in control of
31:54
a situation every time he confronts the situation?
31:58
Oh, he's just said that they'll try.
32:00
Oh bless, that door had a bit of trouble.
32:01
Yeah, he had a bit of trouble that time, yeah.
32:03
Just say now it's going come on, pull, pull.
32:06
He said they won't take control from me until the invasion is
32:09
complete, so he knows the point. They're going to make their
32:11
move, so that's quite fun watching the power game.
32:15
Packer knows a lot about this invasion plan as well, doesn't
32:17
he? Yeah, well, he's his right hand
32:21
man, isn't he? Troughton spends a lot of the
32:26
next episode looking at a circuit in a radio.
32:30
And I just think it's the life that is.
32:34
That's the doctrine in a nutshell.
32:35
Is surrounded by chaos, the world grinding to a halt, and
32:39
he's there with a microscope, looking looking at a micro
32:42
circuit. I still love the pair.
32:45
We haven't had it yet where it goes down into the sewer and
32:47
he's got the radio and he's sort of cradling.
32:49
It and. When someone talks to him, he
32:52
sort of beams into like, oh, hello.
32:56
You just mentioned Packer there. I'm going to play a quick game
32:58
with you now, courtesy of Daniel Knight.
33:00
OK. It's called Packard versus
33:03
Bennick from Enemy. Oh man, thank you.
33:05
Who is the most incompetent? Oh, it's got, I think it's got
33:12
to be Packard. It's definitely Packard, yeah,
33:15
because I don't think Bennick actually gets anything wrong.
33:17
No, no. OK, who's the more sinister?
33:22
I think it's Bennick and that's a, that's a performance thing
33:28
because Milton Johnson is just so it's a, it's something he
33:33
does so well is he makes your skin crawl, doesn't he?
33:36
But I had a very enjoyable childhood.
33:38
James, you know, that's what he said.
33:40
He doesn't say James. Who's more camp?
33:45
That's a tough tool. They could both be in.
33:50
A panto, We'll say that. And oh, this is the this is the
33:54
hardest one. Who has the worst haircut?
33:56
Benedick has the worst haircut Benedick has got one of the
33:59
worst haircuts in the history of Doctor Who.
34:02
Is although I love when Packer loses his shit later on and he
34:07
does his squeaky voice his. Hair is his hair is sticking
34:10
out, yeah. All over the place.
34:12
Oh, thank you for that, Daniel. So we basically said Benedict's
34:16
far more effective, but I think he's a bit less fun.
34:19
I think he's not meant to be as, but I think Bennig, there's
34:22
something a little bit pervy about him as well, which
34:24
straight away it turns you off, turns you off the fun, doesn't
34:28
it? There's another, and there's an
34:29
interesting question here from Alex Wilson actually, which is
34:32
Packer adjacent, he says, wondering how many times an
34:35
actor has had a conversation with himself on Doctor Who.
34:37
I'm thinking of the scene where Packer talks to the Cybermen.
34:42
Well, Nick Briggs has had many sections.
34:44
That's really the the the trophy goes to Nick Briggs.
34:49
Look at these sets. Yeah, but excuse me, that camera
34:53
there, do you see it right up Wendy Papri's skirt when she
34:55
came down that ladder? Yeah.
34:57
Did you say you know where this manhole is?
34:59
Well, Mark's got a picture by it, so it's definitely still
35:02
there. Need.
35:04
To check that, look at these. I bet it's developed.
35:07
It's developed. The studio is effortless though.
35:09
It's. Really good, yeah.
35:10
This area must have changed beyond recognition though surely
35:12
is. That Sergeant Benton, I'll see
35:15
you there. It is, it is.
35:18
Now there's a weird thing with the geography here.
35:21
They walk in One Direction and then they're shouting in a
35:25
different direction. Maybe I I feel like there's a a
35:28
slight lapse in continuity when the sidemen comes from, they
35:34
think they better go back and do you see what I mean?
35:36
Is it just where the cameras are?
35:38
Though, no, it's, it could be that or it could be I I think
35:40
when it comes to them having to go back.
35:43
Yeah, see this, this scene here with Isabel trying to take her
35:47
pictures of the Cybermen down in the sewers.
35:49
Yeah, that would never be in season 7.
35:53
That's the element that's here. That's.
35:54
All this is a very typically slightly comedy 1960s policeman
36:02
completely out of his depth. Oh.
36:03
He's comedy and said he's murdered horribly.
36:05
James. OK, so right, so now the
36:07
policeman turns around and the Cyberman is there.
36:10
What the heck? There are right There are two
36:12
side men there. So now we assume these two side
36:14
men are between the policeman and the exit, and then Jamie and
36:19
the girls on the other side. Yes, that's what I guess right.
36:23
But now they come up from the from the right.
36:27
Just saying. Oh, I'm very confused.
36:30
It's so far the geography is making sense to me.
36:33
OK. They're coming at us from both
36:35
directions. OK, so there's another one
36:38
behind them now. Oh, is this the Cliff are?
36:39
We it's a great. Cliffhanger.
36:41
Great cliffhanger. The crazy side of my gang.
36:45
Coming down the sewer atom, although she feels as if, James,
36:50
we're missing out. But we don't have enough sort of
36:52
cliffhanging moments where somebody goes, they're coming at
36:55
us from both directions. I don't know, everyone just
36:58
stands there waiting for the titles to hear it.
37:01
That's that's a that's and that's a great cliffhanger
37:05
though, for because they don't have the sting yet, do they?
37:08
So the theme just comes in. So it's it's much more effective
37:11
to end it on a a monster that you can fade on.
37:15
Particularly the noise it's making is that kind of sideman
37:19
going mad noise It's. I think it's a great noise.
37:22
The scream, though, yeah, it's really great.
37:24
But as well, the Don Harper's putting in a like a dumb sting
37:28
every time and that that's really effective as well.
37:32
Well, look, James, I hope you don't mind if I squeeze another
37:34
one in before the end of the episode.
37:36
Absolutely not. Let's go to Guy Lambert and he
37:41
says, Do you think Isabel Watkins should have returned in
37:44
the world of Pertwee Season 7, potentially in a sequel?
37:50
I I don't know how she would have fit into that world.
37:53
She'd have livened it up a bit. She would have done work in in
37:58
tell me which season 7 story you could you could picture her in.
38:02
Oh no, I'll do what he said. I'll do a sequel to this.
38:06
Somehow, the Cerebotron mentor ended.
38:08
Up in Isabel Watkins his hands. Oh, what?
38:11
Isabel Watkins as the villain? No, she thinks.
38:15
She realizes actually it's doing her pictures.
38:18
She's not very good at it. So she tries to sell it at an
38:20
antiques fair and well, it goes from there.
38:25
I think, I think Isabel is very much all of of her of her time.
38:30
But. I also think she's a little bit
38:32
irritating. See.
38:34
I don't really find it quite fun.
38:36
But no, I know we we had this conversation last time and it's
38:39
it I think there are degrees. She like this whole thing with
38:43
them going down to the sewers. Is that used to irritate me
38:47
because it is downright irresponsible and it's what
38:51
they're doing now. Yeah, totally.
38:53
I know, but they're they're trying to get evidence of the
38:56
side men. She's not taking the side men
38:58
seriously. That's.
38:59
Well, no, she just wants them for the.
39:00
Press You know that's why he's lying in the next episode.
39:04
They do look a bit like fakes. I think that I'll tell you what
39:08
it is in the next episode, after a guy gets killed because of
39:14
her, she's very much like, oh, I'm sorry, that soldier got
39:17
killed. And her Dolly soldier says, oh,
39:22
it's all right. And I'm like, it's not really
39:24
all right, is it? Actually, I'm starting to wonder
39:26
if I'm just giving them a pass because she's really quite cute,
39:30
you know? Yeah, she's she's, she's got a
39:33
kind of infectious energy that's.
39:35
Exactly the same way I feel about Paulie and Ben.
39:37
You know, the more I explore that.
39:38
But I love. Behave in the most appalling
39:41
ways in their stories and especially Paulie.
39:44
But they're so sexy. Who cares?
39:45
You know, like. Yeah, I've got a lot of time for
39:47
Paulie and Ben. OK, Point Fairpoint.
39:49
Well, OK, so on determining that sex, people can get away with
39:53
whatever crimes they want, James.
39:55
Were you going to pull another one out?
39:56
Did you? Did you say or have we forgotten
39:58
that? OK, good at this, you know?
40:00
OK, yes. Excuse me.
40:01
I'll just have a little rummage. Hang on.
40:04
Just one more pull. Dumb.
40:06
Could this be the best Cyberman story of the 60s despite the
40:10
fact they don't turn up until the end?
40:12
Where would you place this in preference of the Cyberman
40:15
stories of this era? And did this success of hang on?
40:20
I'll say that again. Did this success cement the
40:24
format of the series going forward?
40:26
3 questions. Other questions Yes, it's the
40:29
best. Is it well, is it the best
40:32
Cyberman story? See, this comes back to the to
40:35
the heavies question. It is it really a sideman story?
40:39
I mean, the, the, the nature of the sidemen is barely explored
40:43
in this story. I just think as a taken as a as
40:47
a Doctor Who story, I think it's it's a far higher quality than
40:51
any of the other Sidemen story. Yeah, it's the best Doctor Who
40:56
stories at this point featuring the Cybermen.
40:58
Exactly that. I don't know.
41:00
I think maybe two of the Cybermen is probably.
41:02
Two of the Cybermen is a better site.
41:04
Yes, I agree. Because there's just been so
41:05
much of it, you know? Yeah.
41:07
And did the success of this cement the format the Future
41:10
series going forward? I think it probably did.
41:13
It's it it. It certainly would have done in
41:16
Derek Sherwin's mind. And I think it's one of the most
41:20
successful stories, if not the most successful story of this
41:24
season. So yeah, it I think probably a
41:27
team desperate for ways of keeping the show alive would
41:31
have looked at this and gone, yeah, this is a way we can do
41:33
it. I think it's a fusion of two
41:36
things, all right? I think it's Derek's show and
41:39
being very savvy about what's in the cultural zeitgeist at the
41:42
time. And spy shows are very popular.
41:45
So that's you unit and quite a mass was massively popular.
41:50
And so they sort of mixed the two together and their Season 7,
41:54
suddenly we're back up to 8 million.
41:56
I'm going to say I'm going to add one other thing and it's
41:58
Nicholas Courtney, which I think a lot of the success of this is
42:03
the chemistry that Nicholas Courtney has not just with
42:05
Patrick Charlton, but with everyone on screen with him.
42:08
He is a very well-rounded and well played character because of
42:15
that particular actor's charisma from from the word go.
42:22
And of course in that character you then have a way of lighting
42:26
the load on your doctor. Because one of the things that
42:28
Troughton have been complaining about was just how much you have
42:31
to do if you were playing the lead in that show.
42:33
So as a way of reformatting it as a show with effectively 2
42:38
leads certainly, which is certainly kind of the case for a
42:42
brief period in in the years that follow, I think that would
42:46
have felt like a very sensible way forward as well do.
42:50
You remember Gebbic from the monster peloton?
42:58
He's the, you know. They're absolutely where's he
43:01
going with this? I hear you are.
43:03
He's the absolutely bonkers 1. You know that beats the shit out
43:06
of not John Pertwee and tries. Oh yes, the whole mountain.
43:09
You know the one with. The I do.
43:12
Remember that one? Yeah, that is the actor that was
43:16
in the Web of Fear that was originally going to play
43:21
Courtney's part. Now that's who could have been
43:23
our Brigadier Gebec. There's a whole Big Finish
43:29
Unbound story to be. I just don't think it would have
43:33
worked. No, I agree.
43:34
I think you needed that kind of twinkle, you know?
43:39
And no matter how absurd those stories got in.
43:43
His era like Courtney. Just adds a level of, I don't
43:48
know, I just believe the threat. I don't care that they're
43:50
wobbling jellies going blah, blah, blah.
43:56
I've got one last question for you.
43:57
You look fit to burst. But I'm going to get one more
44:00
in, do I? You do, yes.
44:02
Well, questions. I mean grief.
44:05
What do you think I'm talking about?
44:06
John Arnold says. Is this one suitable for the
44:10
edited and colourised treatment for odd end on a controversial
44:14
one that, given what you think of, you know the others.
44:18
Well, I'm not yes, I'm not convinced that that that's any
44:22
other Doctor Who is suitable for that treatment.
44:24
So it's, it's a difficult one to answer.
44:28
I, I think I mean deepest respect.
44:30
And I understand that some people have come to those
44:33
episodes who have not seen them before and I'm delighted by
44:37
that. And they're obviously made for
44:39
different people than me. So it's not a criticism.
44:42
Where it seems to me that there are problems is in well, two
44:47
things pacing, because we've talked about this, how how well
44:51
paced this is for the 25 minute format and how actually the best
44:54
way to watch these episodes is in individual episodes.
44:58
And any act of truncation is going to compromise that.
45:02
And sometimes it's more successful.
45:03
I mean, I didn't like we we we know that there are decent
45:07
omnibus versions of the Demons and of Genesis of the Daleks,
45:10
which actually cut some flap. I think that this structure, and
45:16
it was true of the War games as well, it's so much harder to
45:19
truncate because it's not so much padding.
45:21
It's that every episode follows its own trajectory, which may,
45:26
if you watch 2 episodes in a row, you realize that they're
45:29
just going from one location to another and then back.
45:32
And actually not much has happened.
45:34
But at the time, it feels like you're, you're making progress
45:37
in the story because of the way that it's, you know, it's
45:39
written. You start cutting bits out of
45:41
that and it does start to look like people walking from one
45:43
place to another and then back again because you're cutting out
45:46
kind of the, the, the actual point, which was the
45:48
characterization, the conversations they had.
45:51
The other thing that I think has been for me problematic with
45:54
those colorized versions is the attempt to kind of match the new
45:58
pace with a new soundtrack and a whole new kind of vibe.
46:02
And that just feels to me like 2 things that that that don't
46:06
really coexist terribly successfully.
46:09
It feels to me over saturated, frenetic, stressful to watch in
46:15
a way that's in a way that I don't find classic Doctor Who.
46:19
So no, that's my answer. I don't think it is.
46:26
I'm sure it would look gorgeous with colour eyes but I also it.
46:29
Would be. It would be an obvious choice I
46:31
think as. Well, but yeah, but it already
46:34
looks gorgeous. I mean, not so much this.
46:36
To work around the two episodes that are missing as well.
46:39
Yeah, it's it. I mean, the the restored version
46:42
really does look gorgeous. And, and I'd, I'm, I am a big
46:47
fan of the look of black and white.
46:48
And I think that there is an argument that the Doctor Who
46:51
looked more expensive when it was black and white because they
46:55
could get away with more. And I would suggest very last
46:58
observation that there is no modern day score that could do
47:04
this story as much justice as Don.
47:06
Harper does. In this story, as much as I
47:10
might want to think with it. Well.
47:12
John. John.
47:13
Who's John? You're James.
47:15
It's AJ. John asked the question you
47:18
answered. It and John Arnold will be doing
47:21
the remaining 3 episodes. It's been a delight.
47:24
Yeah, thank you, John. See you later.
47:29
I don't remember how on earth I was going to win.
47:31
Oh, yes, I do. I was going to say you messaged
47:33
me and you said I've got to stop outing your messages on episodes
47:38
and said, you know, I don't know.
47:39
I'm qualified to answer these questions.
47:41
And I said, James, you have a master's in the invasion.
47:44
And I think you have proved it thus far.
47:47
Well, I shall. OK, I shall endeavour to, to,
47:51
to, to keep the standard up. And I want to skip on then to
47:55
the next episode because I think there are episodes of Doctor Who
48:01
in the run, single 25 minute episodes that are some of the
48:05
best 25 minutes of Doctor. Whoever produced I think episode
48:08
6 of The Invasion qualifies. You know, I think I'm going to
48:13
strongly agree with you.