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Second Puberty & the CEO Mindset: Building a Business While Your Body’s Rebuilding Itself · Serious Lady Business

• Leslie Youngblood (00:00) Welcome back to Serious Lady Business. I'm Leslie Youngblood, your host, feminist and fellow founder of Youngblood MMC, a marketing media and content agency. Now today is an extra special episode as we are joined by two incredible ladies, EJ Kim and Marina Penn, co-founders of Nabi, a wellness startup redefining how women navigate para menopause. Now EJ serves as CEO with over 20 years of experience in data intelligence and analytics, She has built a career at the intersection of consumer insights, strategy, and innovation, helping brands make smarter data-driven decisions for growth. Her journey into women's health and perimenopause advocacy is deeply personal. Diagnosed with PCOS in her early 30s and later experiencing perimenopause symptoms firsthand, she was struck by the lack of support, education, and solutions available to women at this critical stage of life. She's also been recognized as one of 200 trailblazing leaders in women's health and femtech and is also a sought after speaker. Now Marina serves as Nabi COO. She also boasts two decades of experience in brand strategy and marketing for Fortune 500 companies like Walmart, Pfizer, and Unilever. She brings both business acumen and lived experience to the space. Originally from Argentina, she now lives in New York with her husband and two boys, ages seven and four. Marina is passionate about changing the cultural conversation around perimenopause, and supporting and seeing. Now, Navi is the first company dedicated exclusively to perimenopause support and care. It has been featured in Elle, Vanity Fair, and Good Housekeeping. By securing a place in these top tier publications, Navi is breaking long held taboos and ensuring that midlife women are seen, heard, and supported so they can continue leading, creating, making an impact without compromise. I just love all that so much. Ladies, welcome to Serious Lady Business. Marina Pen (01:52) Thank you. Thank you for the intro. Very, very, very thrilled to be here. EJ Kim (01:52) Thank you. Thank you. Leslie Youngblood (01:57) Well, I am thrilled to be talking second puberty and the CEO mindset with both of you. I think, you know, it taps into this idea of perimenopause as a second puberty, right? Like we all know what a trick it is to have that first puberty talk and then to go through that first puberty, but this is second puberty. And I feel, you know, the conversation is even less around it right now. And with our audience and so many women building businesses, you know, rocket shipping their career and their 30s, 40s, and even 50s, we have no idea of this kind of like, you know, this you're in the middle of two revolutions, right? One in your body and one in your business and professional life. So, EJ, I would love to start with you where we talk about this second puberty. What does that mean to you both when we say perimenopause as second puberty and how has it shaped your own entrepreneurial journey? EJ Kim (02:46) Yeah, I mean, the second puberty is not a medical term, but it's often referred to when we talk about perimenopause as second puberty. So we didn't make this up. Actually, this is something that's been like talked about as that. And to your point, Leslie we don't talk enough about perimenopause. So when we say second puberty, people are like, what? So you recall sort of your teenage years and you you're getting that sort of period talk and we kind of compare those peri-talk. You know, did you get peri-talk? We're like, no, we don't even know what it is. Leslie Youngblood (03:03) Right Mhm. EJ Kim (03:15) So that's usually the common scenario. So compared to kind of, if this is a second puberty and the first puberty, like we've been acknowledged, like, oh, you're the teenagers, all you're getting your periods or like, there are a lot of these changes that we were, you know, talked to, we're educated. I think the difference is that you're kind of like, you're grown, you should know what is going on. We don't, because we sometimes forget that because we're grown women, we forget that we are still evolving. Leslie Youngblood (03:33) Right? Right? EJ Kim (03:41) And I think this is a good way for us to remind the second puberty is like we're still on on this track of evolving, changing. And that means that we may have to relearn and learn again. create some space for try different things, right? And I think this is exactly what perimenopause is comes natural, right? It's we all go through it naturally. And we often say this peri doesn't discriminate, meaning it happens to all of us. So it kind of humbles us because it normalizes because like it happens to all of us. And, you know, if you think about sort of the teenage like, yeah, she's going through puberty. Like you've heard that if you apply the same concept, I think what is exciting about perimenopause? Yes, there are some changes there. Leslie Youngblood (04:03) Right? Mm-hmm. EJ Kim (04:18) happening from mentally, physically, and all that. But we kind of, not excuse, but we understand, you know, when teenagers are doing this thing and being rebellious and things like that. But could we apply the same logic and same understanding to what we are going through? Oh, she's going through something. She is rethinking about a lot of things, transforming her lives and making choices that's kind of like not anymore serving her, you know, that served her for past like two decades of her life. So I think this is very like Leslie Youngblood (04:29) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. EJ Kim (04:47) think, do we apply this sort of the energy that bold rebellious in a good way, right? Because we know better, we know more, we have more insight, we have no experience. So I think Second Puberty actually for us is quite exciting because this time for us to give back, contribute in a meaningful way because we have something to give. But then all this experience can be used as an asset and could be as a sort of successful ingredient for us to move forward. How do we make this sort of the time that we want to do something and transform ourselves and transform the world around us. How do you do that? And to us is what perimenopause is. And we're here to dial up that energy, that bold, vibrant, and know, that possibilities and the fact that we have, we're so much equipped now than frankly, looking back my teenage years that how do we make that happen? for us, this is a lot of possibilities and a lot of excitement and bold decisions sometimes, but that comes a lot of exciting things that come with. Leslie Youngblood (05:45) Mm-hmm, yeah, I totally agree. Marina, you, what's something that you used to think was a personal failing maybe before you realized it was actually perimenopause? Marina Pen (05:55) I think overall I'd say it was the feeling of total overwhelm and that I was just failing at life. There's something and you were talking about this when you kicked off this conversation and how we are women at this age, you know, in our late 30s and 40s where we have... all these things that we worked so hard to build. And in our case, we're building a new company and just the feeling that you're failing at life, feeling absolutely overwhelmed. And you worked so hard to get there because you're at a point where you're, you, you build your career. You're, you know, in a position, hopefully that you're, you know, just like you grew enough where you have. you know, a certain position, you have your family, you have your kids, you're raising kids, if that's what you chose to, you have your partner, you know, like you have your social life, like all these things that you're holding together and that you worked so, hard to get, and all of a sudden you're feeling very overwhelmed, moody, snappy, exhausted. and you're not able to enjoy it. So there was that point where I felt I was totally failing in my life because I was not able to enjoy what I had worked so, so hard to get. then it happened, we happened because it was a journey that we were already embarked with EJ where we found out that we were in pyramid of us and I... Leslie Youngblood (07:14) Yeah. Marina Pen (07:32) I had no idea that that was something and that the sleeplessness, the anxiety, I did have full panic attacks at one point every day, every night I would wake up covered in sweat and spiraling and very anxious and I had no idea that that could be connected to hormones and what was happening to my body. was, I thought that I was not able to deal with my life and it was stress. So Leslie Youngblood (07:41) What Yeah. Marina Pen (07:58) I think what happens during perimenopause and it's just like such a long phase is that we gaslight ourselves thinking it's just stress, I'm just tired, I didn't get a good night's sleep, I have too much work, know, whatever it is, whatever excuse we're giving ourselves. And it's basically something that is asking us to stop. Leslie Youngblood (08:06) Mm-hmm. Marina Pen (08:21) to take a look at what we're going through and just make adjustments. And this is not just one experience. This is something that we hear over and over again. And as a matter of fact, we do have research that we've done with perimenopausal women that are experiencing symptoms. And only 26 % of those women are connecting those symptoms to perimenopause. The remaining 74 % have no idea of what's going on. Leslie Youngblood (08:43) Mmm. Marina Pen (08:48) on with their bodies and over half are blaming their schedules, like their crazy lives and how hectic it is. And they are acknowledging that this is ruining their days, that this is having a very serious impact in their lives and quality of life. So it's such an important thing to realize that you're in perimenopause because everything clicks after that. ⁓ I personally experienced that and we see that. Leslie Youngblood (08:54) Right. Yeah. Yeah. Marina Pen (09:15) happening with other women when you're able to name the thing, to know what's going on and you're able to access the right resources, make the changes that you need to get better control and to, you know, actually get your life on track again and really start enjoying what you work so hard to build. Leslie Youngblood (09:19) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, right. I feel like it must have felt like such a light bulb moment. And I think it's so common for women at any age, right? Where you think, I'm just crazy or I just must be crazy or there it just must be something wrong with me or I must be working too much or too stressed or too this. And we like force ourselves to keep going, right? Because women were super resilient and we nobody's told us that, by the way, it might be this. might be something more going on there. And when you don't know what to ask or you don't even know that something is even a possibility, you're just floundering. And I know that when growing up, I mean, maybe menopause was sort of talked about, but perimenopause really wasn't necessarily talked about. had no idea that was even a thing and that could really truly have extreme symptoms in our lives and present before we started really going through official menopause. for almost maybe 20 years, even sometimes it could be. And so I would love to know, EJ too, as founders, how do you lead a company when your own body feels like it's under construction? EJ Kim (10:36) You know, first thing first, I think when you accept that we're all a working progress, actually kind of gives you that a little bit of relief. And we all have areas that we need to work on and we're all working progress. someone reminded me and I think that's sort of way of understanding what is going that what we are going through. And I do think that, you know, the Leslie Youngblood (10:41) Mmm. Yes, that's true. Good point. EJ Kim (10:58) Blessing thing I think is that when you're building something that not only you can benefit but many more people can benefit that you actually feel the pain and the discomfort that you advocate for and so we reverse it and you you are the person that you share that Experience. I mean that's quite powerful because it comes from it's such a genuine place, right? I know that when we started this project about five years ago, know, Leslie like the word peri menopause. Yeah people are like Leslie Youngblood (11:09) Hmm. EJ Kim (11:27) what menopause we're like no not the same. ⁓ Leslie Youngblood (11:28) Sure. Right, right, very different. EJ Kim (11:31) Exactly. I think now, fast forward five years, mean, there's a lot more awareness and conversation about it, although compared to the number of people who are suffering and dealing with this sort of how it impacts you negatively on a day to day, we're not talking about it enough. So there's a lot to talk about and educate and all that good stuff. that's why we are here, that we get energized about it. But coming back to your question, it's like, you know. Leslie Youngblood (11:46) Hmm. EJ Kim (11:55) we're trying to start with sort of with us, like our experiences and because if you're trying to figure something out for somebody else that you never experienced it, you know, so you're a little bit like far removed, right, like one or two steps. So it's so I think that that's a powerful place. And then we want to use this sort of a frustration anger that a lot of people had going through or finding out that they're going through something that they can't control because it's natural. So we are trying to just channel the energy to something positive, something productive. Leslie Youngblood (11:57) Mm-hmm. EJ Kim (12:24) because you could always just say, this is not ideal and then bitching about it. then we know also we're that kind of woman, right? What can we do? Can we make things better? So I think we're just kind of constantly reminding ourselves and also Perry is about like 10 plus years journey. So, and my experience, your experience, let's say Marina's experience, gonna be all different. There's no such thing as one Perry experience. So we're also learning from one another, you know, kind of like, hey, what are you going through? Leslie Youngblood (12:32) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. EJ Kim (12:52) through and then there's there's not a lot of data so really right now the only way that we can really understand is of course there's more data that's going to come out. I think a lot of more people are jumping into this sort of arena now but I think sharing stories where we start hey I this is what I'm going through what about you and also we say hey listen not everything is perimenopoms but we do need to understand the underlying issue because when people say you're hormonal do you really understand what that means beyond period right because Leslie Youngblood (13:14) Mm-hmm. EJ Kim (13:21) I think we go through this evolution where like, that's why the hormone does what it does. And I think we work it. So I think we're trying to bring that into the conversation using our experience as a fuel and as a reference point and then try to find like, what else are you going through? And so we're trying to pull that information together as a starting point to then, okay, how do we educate more people, people who may not have been part of this conversation? And one of the interesting insight that we Leslie Youngblood (13:27) Mhm. EJ Kim (13:50) actually something that we observed was working through it now a lot more friends are talking about this but because the experience was so private and personal actually when we begin this journey we realize that people are not even really talking about it one they didn't know that some of the symptoms that they're going through are actually due to perimenopause and two because they didn't know about it that there's something wrong with them they didn't want to talk about it at work forget about it you know their partner they were not going to understand it the girlfriends even just was so personal so now we see a little bit more like opening up and then once you open they get Leslie Youngblood (13:54) Mmm. Sure. Mm-hmm. EJ Kim (14:22) there's no way to shut that down. People have loads of stories and my God, like the Facebook pages, like people talking about their symptoms, it's really dropping, meaning there are a lot of people who are dealing with this on a daily basis and we know from our work too, it impacts our quality of life on a daily basis. So women are dealing with this on daily basis. It's not like once in a while I get this kind of headache, no. It's like an underlying thing. So we're trying to bring this conversation Leslie Youngblood (14:26) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. EJ Kim (14:50) Conversation so not again everything is peri-menopause But knowing the hormone does play a role in this life stage that we're in it impacts us in a certain way that we may know we may not know how do we bring that awareness because we are talking to all of us the smart women we just need education and Sort of a tool so that they can kind of figure it out or even just use it as a way to learn more about their body with their doctors and things like that so we're here to really try to facilitate that and You know guide that conversation And then along the way, course, we have a botanical supplement that we formulated with doctors. So that's a kind of a solution. If that's along the way, it's very helpful. you know, we welcome people to join our community to experience that as well. But, you know, we are built as an education first for a reason. And because that's really what started this journey to begin with, like we got to give people the insight and then, you know, the credible information that people are like, I don't know where to go. And frankly, I meet those people all the time. I don't know. Leslie Youngblood (15:35) Mm-hmm. Thank you. Mm-hmm. EJ Kim (15:48) They're almost like now too much information, social media is going up. So her filter through and also this like as you said, peri menopause like. Leslie Youngblood (15:50) Sure. Okay. Mm-hmm. EJ Kim (15:58) putting all of them together, it's very confusing. So we are very single minded intentionally say, you know what, women do not go through perimenopause menopause at the same time physically not possible. So let's just go all in on Team Perry and give this clarity because it's confusing to begin with. So why are we putting it all together as like the menopause? I mean, Leslie Youngblood (16:07) Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. EJ Kim (16:19) menopause is one day too. So it's like, how do we go really double down on this like long journey, our like, you know, highest earning years, we are also building starting families, there's a lot of things that we're building during phase. So we just want to take part in that to help that journey, so that women have a better chance of winning and thriving. Leslie Youngblood (16:39) Mm-hmm. Right. And I love what you said, you know, creating that education and creating that community and creating a safe place for women that are going through something, right? And you're unsure and you think you're alone in that. But when you're creating that safe space for women to step forward and realize and understand you're totally normal, this is a, this is a normal like. evolution of your life and we have solutions, we have answers for you and there's others in here that are going through it and talking about it. think that is so powerful. And you you touched on a few of those misconceptions about your 30s, 40s, and 50s, EJ, and then building businesses on top of that with additional stress or raising families or navigating your career, right? And you think, oh, I should have this figured out by now. I'm too old to be X, Y, or Z, right? But it's okay. You're never gonna get to where you think you're supposed to be. And so just kind of giving yourself that grace and then... you creating that safe space for women to come and learn and connect to the resources that they may need, whether it's a supplement or just talking to somebody in the education. think that's so powerful and profound. Marina, I would love to hear from you. How do you balance building a startup while holding down a job, especially when your energy and your bandwidth are fluctuating daily? Marina Pen (17:53) That's a daily commitment because it is hard for both of us. It's just like really managing the day. I'd say the first thing is just... Leslie Youngblood (17:58) you Marina Pen (18:10) thinking of this as a marathon where you need to pace yourself because sometimes your eagerness, you know, and you're, you know, you want to see results. want to think things to move faster because in your brain they're moving faster. You can see where you can get, but the reality is that things take time. So it's critical to pace yourself in every way. and just really have that patience in terms of, you things take their time to get to where they need to be. And because you really need that energy and that endurance for the long term, otherwise you'll burn out. So that's really important. And we do, know, each and I try to keep each other at check, you know, really trying to manage that balance between like, hey, you know, like I need some, you know, just like time off, let's, know, let's push. push things a little bit more because I really need the time to recharge. But I think it's also, you know, just very menopause. It's the ultimate lesson to to to slowing down, really looking to listen to what your body is asking for and honoring that rhythm, you know, the natural rhythm that is required and just really pacing yourself. Leslie Youngblood (19:14) Mmm. Marina Pen (19:28) and listening to your body. One thing that has been critical for me is sleep. So sleep has been something that I consciously have worked on for probably the last couple of years. of really creating the right environment to sleep, really trying to go to bed every night at the same time and wake up at the same time, trying to get at least seven or eight hours. I have two young kids. Sometimes, you you're, you know, you're lucky if you get six or five interrupted hours of sleep. So, but that has been a game changer for me because I have my aura ring. you know, like Perisential five has been also really, really helpful to, you know, just like Soothe my nervous system and help me also sleep better so that changes everything because once you're able to sleep well and have that energy, know, like things tend to click, you know and work better but ultimately is is just being very mindful on how you're pacing yourself and listening to your body and what you need because it gets very busy all the time and you can push yourself to exhaustion because you're working, you know, like we have like early, you know like 7 a.m. meetings or evening meetings or sometimes you you need to work over during the weekend plus life so it can get very very intense so really being mindful about that yeah Leslie Youngblood (20:42) Hmm. Yeah. EJ, what about you? What has Paramanopause taught you about pacing, patience, the importance of sleep, redefining success as a business owner? EJ Kim (20:55) Yeah, I think one good thing about this phase that we're in is that I think you get to know more about who you are and you know, what works for you what doesn't of course we all have areas to work on because again, remember we're all work in progress, right? So, but I think being able to have a bit more of a very thoughtful, but very clear point of view and perspective on things because I think there, if you think about your 20s and even like early 30s, you know, you might have said yes, more just like because or because you feel like you have to. think when we're entering sort of the peri phase, I think what I am experienced personally, but also hearing from our community, you get to a point of kind of like, no, that's not my priority or no, that doesn't serve my purpose. And I think being able to have more of that conviction of what works for you, doesn't, what is non-negotiable, what is not. And I think this is a beautiful time because you can call that shot before you might not feel like you have that power, but you start realizing that's also why and Nabi we talk about Perry power, because it's real, like it's in you, actually, you got to get it out. No one's gonna like give you that power, you kind of have to claim it. And we kind of all have it in us. I think you just have to like bring it out, right. So I think that's where you constantly negotiate with yourself. And then also people that matters to you in your life. And, you know, negotiation is not all fun, right? Leslie Youngblood (21:59) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. EJ Kim (22:20) but I was actually most recently at the Women in Negotiation Summit and they were talking about when was your last time you advocated for yourself? And as I was trying to answer that question, it really came down to the point where I was like, wow, the common thread of all that point in time when I advocate myself was I actually had to negotiate with myself. And I think that's where, know, perimenopause is very much the time when we feel more confident and comfortable to. to express what we're looking for and also even just articulating sometimes like we don't know what we're looking for in your 20s. If you think about it, you're all like experiment mode. And then now we're getting into more of like knowing what works. And I think this is where try to incorporate that as a way to manage day to day. What really matters? Can I shop? Can you not give attention to every single thing because you can't. And sometimes I think this is where so the eight players sometimes have a bit of a confidence an issue because as Marina said, we do see a lot of people in this space, like all of a sudden things gets really overwhelming. Like, like we have this woman. I used to be able to cook my husband and then my kids and then like do all these things at the same time, you know, like I had no problem tackling like three, four things at the same time. But then she goes, but lately I can't even finish like one or two things that's like that I started. And again, but then you feel bad as a mother, as a partner, right? But as a woman, you're like, I was that a person. right? That the type, like I get everything done. But then I think this is where we also need to be like, be humble, and then understand that like there are moments that we just need to give ourselves that time out and then break time. And I think we just need to keep asking these things and create space for ourselves, and then constantly talk to yourself. I think that's what we don't do enough. We are so listening to other needs that we don't talk to ourselves. Are you okay? EJ, are you okay? So, you know, I don't I don't I haven't done that enough. I'm just Leslie Youngblood (23:44) Good for Mmm. Mmm. Mmmhmm. EJ Kim (24:12) but I'm practicing that lately because that's the only way to figure out the 24 hours that everyone has. We all have 24 hours. How we use that is all up you. But then also your circumstances all determine how you may need to shuffle things. So obviously you can't all be like me, me, me, but given that you are associated in a company, you are doing this project because you want to, or you're part of this community that you care about, you have a group of friends and then family to care to. Leslie Youngblood (24:14) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. EJ Kim (24:39) How do you div it up? And I think these are the sort of thinking and almost like mapping it out. And I think that this is a feels very natural, you think, but I think sometimes we don't give ourselves enough time. So I try to practice that quite a bit lately, given that I'm also sometimes feeling my limitation. And I'm like, I used to be able to stand, you know, stay up till God knows I'm night out, but I'm realized. Leslie Youngblood (24:57) sure. Mm-hmm. EJ Kim (25:03) early meetings and everything, I'm just like, whoa, like I can't anymore. And I think that's the point where how do you not get discouraged and be like, I'm out. I give up to, well. Leslie Youngblood (25:11) Mmm. EJ Kim (25:14) I'm not sick. I'm not that's not something bad happening. It's just that I'm going through this change again, as Marina said, like we are able to name this like perimenopause. It's kind of using as a way to frame so then we can figure out, okay, so then what can I do? What can I do things differently? And also, mind is a huge part of that. And I think we're so into the schedule driven world lately that people may forget about sort of like how mindset matters. And I think this trying to bring a lot of that into Leslie Youngblood (25:28) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. EJ Kim (25:41) day to day I think it's what I personally try to practice to make things work and making sure I show up. When I do show up, don't show up like halfway, you know. Leslie Youngblood (25:49) Yeah. Now I love that. And you shared something a little bit ago. I think you're talking about I used to be able to, or when I was in my 20s, this. I would love to hear how your approach to leadership would be different if you started NABI in your 20s. Marina Pen (26:03) my God. I, yeah, I don't, I mean, I've always been very entrepreneurial and very creative in the way that I, you know, just like think of things or try to solve problems or even, you know, like, yeah, just have like startup ideas. I don't know if I could have done this in my twenties, like looking back. EJ Kim (26:06) You're welcome. Leslie Youngblood (26:07) Yeah, we wouldn't. We wouldn't. No. Marina Pen (26:27) And I, you know, I don't know if I had it in me at such a young age in general, because I do, you know, I had these ideas and I wanted to make them happen, but I was not, I didn't have the, maybe the confidence in me to think that I was able to see it through. and you know, thinking about NABBY, it's such a personal. Leslie Youngblood (26:43) Hmm. Marina Pen (26:51) It's such a personal endeavor. It is something that we are going through that we find out, found out that we were going through, that we were shocked, that we had no idea with all the resources and educations that we have. We had no idea what perimenopause was. We remember where we were when we found out about perimenopause. So it was instantaneously. this is our mission, this is what we need to be doing. And even though I've had struggles with hormonal issues my whole life, you know, as many women do with endometriosis and infertility and PMS and you know, like all these different things that many women experience, you know, I don't think I could have done this before. I don't think I could have done it any other way, specifically thinking about NABBI. It's, you know, the time is now and it feels so personal. And that's one of the reasons that that's the fire, you know, that's what gets me up, you know, and keeps me going and doing this. And, and yeah, I don't think I could have done this in my twenties. Yeah. And I do think also that there's these, you know, this confidence and this acumen of experience that you've Leslie Youngblood (27:47) Right. Marina Pen (28:05) Harvested throughout your you know career and your life experience. That is what You know, just like you're you're so well grounded. I do feel you know, really grounded in in what I'm doing and the vision and the purpose behind it and I look back at my 20s and I don't think I I was there Even though I see kids today in their 20s doing these incredible things. I'm like, my god EJ Kim (28:24) Thank Leslie Youngblood (28:29) Totally. Marina Pen (28:30) The damas Leslie Youngblood (28:31) I know, I'm like, I wish I had that, I wish I had that focus and that, you know, wherewithal to, I was just not about that. Marina Pen (28:40) Yeah. So yes, no, I didn't think I had it. Like I didn't even think about it as an option. I do think also that today you have all these resources and all these tools and all these access to things that, you know, like 20 years ago you did not have. So it's, you know, it's a, it's a very different world and it's amazing. ⁓ but yeah, I don't think I could have done this in my 20s. Leslie Youngblood (28:57) True. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I couldn't have done what I'm doing now in my 20s either, but it may make sense. And then I would also maybe venture to guess that you wouldn't be able to do this without EJ. And so I love, I want to talk about some pros and cons about running a business together as co-founders. EJ, why don't you go first? EJ Kim (29:22) Yeah, so actually I started this journey on my own as a starter the first year. But then it quickly came to me that I started as a more like, this is going to be like mini MBA. I'm investing my own. This is my learning because I was seeking learning. And then it of course had an idea that was kind of like, you know, thankfully came together. Leslie Youngblood (29:32) Mmm. EJ Kim (29:40) But I do think that if you, you know, there's a saying, right, if you want to go fast, go by yourself. If you want to go far, you have to bring people along. And I do think that's kind of there was a moment where, all right, if I want to do this like the most legit and robust way possible, then one brain wasn't going to be enough. And I think this was, I think I realized that. Right. I mean, the thing is, Marina and I are very different people. But I do think that that's actually what brings us a good duo. And of course, we still have to work through things because the ways of working. And obviously two people coming together, thankfully, obviously, we're very much united by the purpose and vision, things like that. But number one reason why startups fail is actually co-founder breakup. So that is actually very much a thing that you cannot just ignore. You cannot just think that two people come together and think beautifully will just drive things from day zero to wherever we're going. I think it's a constant learning, too. Leslie Youngblood (30:20) Mmm. right. EJ Kim (30:36) ⁓ You know kind of like how does she talk? How does she think and then also like what's our strength? How do we come come together and then being able to like try to leverage that like kind of anytime you're bringing a team together, right? Do you do that? And then also we are in it together. So like I'm frankly if one of us think like we both think right so that's like how do we then eventually we don't spit on our face, right? Like meaning like you show up you bring along and yeah, there might be things that like my way your way and of course like we have to Leslie Youngblood (30:46) Sure. Mm-hmm. Right. EJ Kim (31:05) learn that way because you're wired differently. But I do think that that's also a thing because imagine you have the same person just like you're like a marriage, right? Just like you in it. My goodness, like that would be disaster. Leslie Youngblood (31:06) Mm-hmm. Right? That's true. EJ Kim (31:17) Because you're like, maybe, you know, there people who are so similar that it works. So I think leveraging different experiences, leveraging different sort of ways of working. But then the question becomes, how do you stay united and not forget about the purpose and the vision and then use the each other's strength to build something strong together? So I think that is a constant way to like, again, kind of a group sports. Like it's never one person riding and going fast is going to be the answer. But we cannot just Leslie Youngblood (31:41) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. EJ Kim (31:46) that this be like too long of a thing to like both of us get on the same page. So I think we have to like help each other. And I think this is where we constantly like try to bring each other along, right? Cause sometimes it's just different or thinking process is different. So I think that, I think we came this far because we're doing it together. That's for sure. But there's obviously always just like a good marriage, you know, like you have to constantly kind of check. Leslie Youngblood (31:56) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. EJ Kim (32:09) And then there are moments going to be times when we're like, well, we're not on the same page. But then what do do? You communicate. So I think that it's not just a home life that we are bringing these skill sets. But I think it's also in NABI, we're small, but it's actually in a good way. This is good because it's awesome. need to figure it out. And if we have a bigger team, there will be a whole other level of. Leslie Youngblood (32:16) Yeah. EJ Kim (32:30) the way we work and operation or whatnot. So I do think that it's trying to focus on the good, not losing the vision and purpose, constantly remind each other while we're doing this, frankly, too, because we have our moments and we all have. Leslie Youngblood (32:44) Mm-hmm. EJ Kim (32:46) moments of doubt. But I think the good news is when usually I get fired up, sometimes like Marina might not be, but when she gets fired up, like I might not be. So actually the Ying and Yang has been actually good because if we all, of course there are certain things we both get excited about, but there's sometimes when we're approaching a problem solving, we have a different way of coming at it. And I think for me, that's been a really good way of moving forward so that our thinking is a bit more balanced than. Leslie Youngblood (33:08) Yeah. EJ Kim (33:08) you know, one way like skewed in certain way that may, may not, you know, work out. So again, it's a constant work in progress, but I mean, I think that because we're doing it together, I believe that we came this far. Marina Pen (33:19) Yeah. So I I think, yeah, everything that EJ said, we're also straight talkers. So we're just like, no BS, just like straight boom, boom, know, like good or bad. And we're not, and we don't take things personal, you know, it's just like for the business and what we're doing. So we do have that, you know, like Leslie Youngblood (33:19) I love it. Marina, anything about the pros and cons of being partners? Mm-hmm. Marina Pen (33:42) We're very aligned in that way. And so we feel very comfortable with each other when we're communicating and talking and sharing things. We're also compatible just like astrologically. So I'm a Capricorn and EJ is a Cancer. that for any astro, like if you're into astrology, that's a very good thing because we're compatible. So that's good. Leslie Youngblood (33:57) I love it! Marina Pen (34:06) And we trust each other. that's critical. Just like having really blind trust in each other. We know that we're doing the best for the business. We don't have hidden agendas or just weird things that might take us to different places. We're very much aligned in the mission and what we're trying to do. And we trust each other fully. Leslie Youngblood (34:13) now. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Marina Pen (34:27) And we believe that what we're doing is, you know, like we both believe in the same thing. yeah, I'd say, I'm not sure if there are cons, you know, as we think about, because it's just a relationship. So it's part of, know, like you have good things and bad things and it's all great because it's, know, it's humanity at its best. we, you know, we're coming always from a good place. Leslie Youngblood (34:42) Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay. Marina Pen (34:52) And I'd say that, you know, like thinking about, just cons. Yeah. I cannot think of anything. I'd say, you know, maybe, as we're building a company always, you know, you're looking for, we have similar backgrounds in terms of brand building and, know, just like business strategy. So thinking about, you know, it would be great to have someone that has, you know, XYZ experience that, you know, we're always, like a, attorney, for example, if one of us was an attorney, that would be golden. would have. Leslie Youngblood (35:16) Mmm, mhm. Marina Pen (35:20) So far. But yeah, so like I'd say more, you know, like from an expertise perspective, but yeah, I cannot think of, you know, a con, you know, at this point it's just like, it's golden. EJ Kim (35:30) And I think I want to remind the folks listening. actually Marina and I met about 10 years ago in an advertising agency in New York. And we were sitting near each other. We had kind of a good pot of people. We used to hang out. We had so much fun. That's when advertising was super fun. That's sort of like. Leslie Youngblood (35:30) That's wonderful. Marina Pen (35:49) Okay. EJ Kim (35:52) wasn't really about the work because we didn't really work on things together, but it was more just like kind of the fun times and social. So we stay friends and then we all like moved on and to do other things. But then there's some sort of connecting sort of thing to talk about like our lives and you know, like a lot of things happen, right? 10 plus years now. So I think that also was a kind of a foundation. But of course, as a business partner, so you kind of learn, kind of discover about the person as a different sort of aspect. Leslie Youngblood (36:13) Mm-hmm. EJ Kim (36:20) but foundation of the values and the drive that unites people. And then as you put yourself in a different situation, you learn about yourself, you learn about your partner. So I think that's good foundation. I think it's good. And I know there are a lot of people out there looking for co-founders. There are some services or networking. think it will be really important for people to spend some time really understanding them as people. And of course, as a business partner too. Leslie Youngblood (36:21) Yeah. EJ Kim (36:46) with business partnership then you might miss out some foundational stuff. So I think that that would be something to think about if you are out there thinking I need a co-founder but then like what kind of course skill sets, compatibility, the work like ways of working and all that. I don't know but I should actually went to the tarot card readers. Leslie Youngblood (36:57) Mm-hmm. Astrology signs ⁓ Marina Pen (37:01) astrology. Leslie Youngblood (37:06) I love it. Listen, I mean, I believe in that stuff. No, I think that's fantastic advice and that especially for anybody listening and considering bringing on a co-founder or working with a friend or an associate. So thank you so much for that. would I would love to now like pivot more to like the health and wellness industry. Marina, what do you feel is the most frustrating thing you've encountered in the health and wellness space as a founder focused on women in midlife? Marina Pen (37:32) I will try to calm down to answer these questions cause well, it's about frustration. So, this is what started our business, you know, frustration and it's, know, it's how normalized it is for women to feel unwell. And as I'm saying it, I'm getting, you know, electricity run through my body because Leslie Youngblood (37:36) ⁓ Mmm. where. Mmm. Mmm. Marina Pen (37:58) pain, exhaustion, discomfort, anxiety, you name it, are just like common words used when you're talking about women's health. And I've experienced it firsthand with endometriosis and with the pain that goes with it and pregnancy and delivering the babies and postpartum. As a woman, all these things are normalized. Leslie Youngblood (38:17) Where's your money? Marina Pen (38:22) And that's not right. And menopause is one of those things where you're truly not feeling well, where you're truly experiencing with insomnia and stress and anxiety and brain fog. And you think you're going crazy. You feel guilty. You're snappy. You might be feeling depressed, like all these things that happened during this time and are considered normal part of aging, part of being a woman. Leslie Youngblood (38:23) Mm. Marina Pen (38:48) Maybe you're being too dramatic. So all these things, are, know, just like things that are really frustrating and really. Infuriating and, ⁓ and you know, from what we're doing with Nabi, and this is what, you know, I was talking about fire before. This is the fire that got, got us going. We were like, what's perimenopause? this is perimenopause. We're in perimenopause. There's nothing. We need to do something. Leslie Youngblood (38:58) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Marina Pen (39:13) about this, we need to change that. that's, I want to think that we're doing a little contribution within this space just to change the way that women are going through perimenopause and helping women fundamentally with education, just understanding what it is, where you are, what it means. And then just like, these are all the things that, you know, are in the toolbox that you're able to do. So. Leslie Youngblood (39:14) Yeah. Mm. Marina Pen (39:36) Hopefully we're contributing enough to that from Navi. Leslie Youngblood (39:40) Yeah, no doubt. Now, EJ, you mentioned you want She's So Perry to become a compliment. What does that identity and body for you? EJ Kim (39:47) mean first thing first, because we have to redefine what perimenopause is for women in this day and age. I think that's the first thing, people need to understand what perimenopause is. our ambition is just beyond the symptoms. So of course you need to understand what happens during Perry, but we want to really bring out this women, like all of us. We are creating, we building, we are making things better, we leading something or contributing to some good cause or whatnot. And all of this goodness, I want this to be pronounced and a lot of these things happen in Perry. So going back to the Perry power, I want to be able to bring that out and then almost to the, you why not, you know, use that as an adjective to say, my God, I met Leslie and she's so Perry. And that's a thing. And that's an ambition. But I think that we want, you know, when we use the word Perry, of course, the Perry actual literal word in Greek means near. So Perry menopause is near menopause. So it doesn't really mean anything but near menopause. So we're just want to give it a meaning of what Leslie Youngblood (40:33) Mm-hmm. Mmm. EJ Kim (40:53) but also it's because of what this experience is about. And also Leslie, actually the name Nabi in Korea means butterfly. Butterfly, a lot of people want to say like, butterfly symbolizes love, hope, beauty, transformation. Leslie Youngblood (41:08) Mm-hmm. EJ Kim (41:09) was a time of transformation. We are becoming something much stronger, like, you know, authentic selves, and there's a lot of good things happening. It's actually quite exciting and extraordinary time of our lives. But because of things are kind of happening to D. My Light, and we don't know what it is, so we feel confused and just like lost, you know, we don't have control. But we want to kind of put that control back to this woman. And a lot of possibilities, a lot of great things that she's doing. She is in Perry and she's Perry and she has Perry. Leslie Youngblood (41:25) Hmm. EJ Kim (41:39) So when we say you're Perry, we want that to mean so much more of energy and the positive change and the full power that it's all in you. And I think that's our ambition when we keep saying Perry and using that as an adjective. And when we say Perry, we have a very warm association. But of course, people don't know what it is, then they may not connect to it. So we first need to educate what Perry is. It's a starter. Leslie Youngblood (42:04) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love that. Now, I want to move to something that every female, whether you're in the corporate space or when you're a founder, there's a moment when many women consider giving up. What made you keep going? And EJ, I'd love to start with you on that. Marina Pen (42:15) Thank EJ Kim (42:20) What keeps you going? I think this will be probably very different for everybody else, but for me, I think it's the purpose, really. I know I don't sound like a philosophical here, but kind of kind of being really like choosing why you're doing something, Whatever it is that you choose to do. And I think be really clear on like why I'm in it. And I think I'm also a very passionate person. Like it's very clear for me, you know, you want to spot me if I'm interested in something, if I'm not. So this is where like the one Marina was that we're very straightforward people. think we're very like also be clear if something is or is not a thing for us. And I think sometimes, of course, you don't want to be too much of that person, black and white person. My mom used to warn me that she's like, well, you're a little too much of like yes or no, but like kind of have a nice middle. But I think what keeps me going is like, again, the why. Whether I am leading a group of people to help the kind of Fortune 500 company drive their growth, why I'm doing that because I know there's a power of doing data-driven insight work to drive marketing brand strategy, for example. The NABI, there are a ton of people starting with myself, need help. there's everyday challenge and I want to figure out if there's a way to help. And Nabi was a way that makes sense for us to do. Like frankly, we wanted to change the system, but healthcare system is way behind and we weren't gonna, just two of us are not gonna change it. we felt like, we still need to do something, right? We can't wait for the healthcare system to catch up. So kind of choosing, you know, what makes sense for you. Leslie Youngblood (43:48) Right. EJ Kim (43:55) and of course you have to commit to it so it has to make sense to the what's on your plate. So I think for me it's really the why, the purpose and being able to contribute to the problem you know solving. However the sense that makes me feel good is usually sort of my filter. Leslie Youngblood (44:10) Mm-hmm, I love that. Marina, what about you? What made you keep going? Marina Pen (44:15) I'm very much in agreement with DJ. I'm a very resilient person, very gritty, and so I'm not usually a person that gives up. you know, thinking about Navi, there was not a time so far where I considered, you know, giving up. And I think it has to do with the... with the purpose and the strength of the mission that we have. And but because we are experiencing these, we have our friends that are going through these and we meet countless of women that are going through these and we know how tough it can be. So it's just really, you know, focusing on that and moving along. And of course, you're human, so you have better days and tougher days and, you know, that's part of life, but it's... EJ Kim (44:55) Thanks. Marina Pen (44:59) You know, it's always the mission is what's fueling us. Leslie Youngblood (45:04) Mm-hmm. Yeah. EJ Kim (45:05) Actually, let's see, I think it's important to add to this. I think when you're in this journey of creating something that hasn't done before, or this is very new category, then you're gonna get a lot of comments. Of course, there's good amount of people, kudos us, champions us, and really supports us. Really, you know, we love them. But of course, along the way, we have heard things like, good luck, know, good luck, separate. Leslie Youngblood (45:15) Mmm. Mm-hmm. EJ Kim (45:28) from menopause or good luck, you know how tough out there to raise money. And we actually have raised, purposely chose to bootstrap for now. But I think there's a lot of naysayers as well. And I mean, you hear this all the time, but I think it's more like, if you're so crystal clear on why you're doing something. Leslie Youngblood (45:33) Mm-hmm. EJ Kim (45:47) and you believe in it so much, then obviously you're not gonna be like swayed. But there are a lot of people too, they're like, it's really tough out there or that's really hard business that you chose to be or whatever. And I think these are the kind of things that we also have to build some muscle to feel because, and I think this applies to all. Leslie Youngblood (45:51) Mm-hmm. Mmm. EJ Kim (46:05) every business and whatever the journey you're in so that if you are so clear then keep going because there's always going to be people who may say things and that could be very motivating but also could be very discouraging too and I think it's our job to have a bit of that filter so that we don't get swayed, we stay focused, don't forget again the purpose and the vision and just keep going and I think that I just want to like call that out because there are a lot out there too Leslie Youngblood (46:20) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. EJ Kim (46:35) as much as love and support, but also the discouragement and kind of the fear-led messages as well. Leslie Youngblood (46:42) I always like to think of the naysayers and try to reframe it where they don't get it because you're doing something super unique that's never been done. So you're onto something. If people are like, what are, ooh, good luck. It's like, so I must be on it. It's like trolls on social media, right? Like if you get like people trolling you, like, I said something that struck an emotional chord with them, right? Like what they took time out of their day to comment something on my social posts. So I think that's so powerful. and in true, there's always gonna be naysayers, especially when you're doing something completely new in a new space or an untapped space or that people haven't talked about or done before. So I think that's fantastic. And then I'd love to wrap up with a couple of questions to both of you. Marina, I'll start with you. What has surprised you the most about your body, your business or your power since launching Nabi? Marina Pen (47:30) Okay, I'd say yeah. EJ Kim (47:31) Loaded question. Leslie Youngblood (47:34) Just a little one. Marina Pen (47:35) I'd say it's a combination of where I am in my life. And then you just doing something that I've never done before, like building a business and especially a business that does, you know, just in a category that's very nascent, like hormonal wellness and perimenopause. And it's leading with your gut. a lot of the time, so really, really being attuned to my intuition, to what I think is right, what I think might not work. And then just trying to rationalize around those things. And many times with DJ we find ourselves saying, my gut tells me, I'm feeling this. So just... very, you know, trying to be very attuned with my body and my intuition. I'd say that's one of the things that, that has surprised me the most because I, I, I, tended to quiet that voice. And now with growing older, I find the value and the richness with within that. And I'm trying to, you know, guide myself more and more with, with that voice and, you know, just like help. make decisions from that space as well. So I'd say, you know, if I have to say one thing, I'd say that that's one of the most important things. Leslie Youngblood (48:42) I love that. EJ, what about you? What about you, EJ? EJ Kim (48:45) Many things I'm learning on a daily basis, being in this journey, physically, obviously mentally, and also just building something like Nabi. I think that what became clear, I used to talk about Nabi as like a passion project. It is still a passion project, still right description, but. I do remember many people when I talk about it, I kind of like not downplayed it, but I just kind of like, oh yeah, this is what I'm working on. And then a couple of people have said, do you know that when you talk about Navi, you light up like your energy just like changes and, thanks to them, I think it's now just kind of like you own it. Like that's you can, you know, people say you can't ignore the energy or the vibe, right? So I think that's a good. realization for me and reminder like it is just in you. can't ignore it. And when you find something that clicks with you, whatever it is, believe it and live with it because that light that comes on, it's just not you're doing it like manually. It's just kind of has it's like the auto signal like there's something like that. I think I kind of believe in more of that. So, then I think that resilience that Marina talked about, I think when you're building a business with anything good that you're building, especially when the category is not really established, you just have to keep doing it. There's a power of keep showing up, keep doing it and repeat, you know. You learn and optimize and repeat, but there's a power of just, doesn't sound glamorous, but you just keep doing it on a daily basis. Then you're going to be far off, you know, doing something, you know, making things happen than people who are just thinking, but not doing it at all, like action wise. So I do really value this sort of like keep doing every day again, it's not glamorous, but if you keep doing it, then we'll get somewhere. And I think this is where, Leslie Youngblood (50:37) Hmm. EJ Kim (50:38) we're blessed that we keep doing it. And I think that that's the power of just being diligent on a daily basis and just keep showing up. And when in doubt, you just say, well, if I take a day off, well, that's a one day that I'm not. contributing, so you do. And then there's something that you really drive yourself to keep showing up. think that's been actually really powerful. And I do think there's no real secret to building business when people say like, you know, people who have really like exited big way and people ask like, what was your secret? There's no secret I'm learning. I mean, you talked to lot of founders and they all went through their journey and they all did show up. So your people are thinking about what does this all mean? Like just keep showing up. And then that will lead you to roads like next station, next station. And then at some point, if you keep doing it for several years, like it'll make sense, right? So I think rather than trying to figure out that, that end point, we don't even know. mean, Marina, I want to do this forever. But it's like, you know, what is that day to day, the hustle that you're bringing in because you believe in it obviously. Leslie Youngblood (51:32) Yeah. Mm-hmm. EJ Kim (51:46) you approach it on a daily basis. They're so powerful. Don't ignore that like everyday small steps that adds up, I'll say. Leslie Youngblood (51:53) Yeah, yeah, for sure. I love that. Thank you. Well, ladies, before we wrap up today, I would love for you to share where our listeners can continue the conversation with you. LinkedIn, website, all that good stuff. EJ Kim (52:04) Yeah, we are absolutely on LinkedIn. And so please find us and follow us. It's on LinkedIn. Nabi and that is Nabi life, but you can find Nabi and then let us know if you can't find it. But Instagram, we are at Nabi.life and we are on, know, www.nabilife.com is our website. You can check us out. Check out, check our stories, our science, our journey and the product education, all of that is in there. And we would love to partner with like-minded businesses. And then we also love doing education. So we do a lot of webinars with experts and in-person events. So if you are interested in partnering, if you're an expert that want to join that, please let us know. We would love to partner and then spread more credible insights and intelligence to people so that we can help. women thrive on a daily basis. Leslie Youngblood (52:59) love that. And we'll definitely put all those links in the show notes to Marina, EJ, thank you so much for joining us today. What incredible conversation and incredible mission that you both are on right now. And we look forward to following your journey and being so Perry. Thank you both have a great day. Marina Pen (53:14) Thank you so much. Thank you. You too, thank you.