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Not A Bad Woman. Just Not A Woman · The Spectrum

• Linda: Hello and welcome to episode number 44 of The Spectrum. Today we have a guest whose name is Kris, and we're going to talk about what it means to be non-binary and perhaps some of the different ways that non-binary exists, because it's a subject that I don't know very much about personally being a very binary person. And I'm hoping that Kris can enlighten us. But before we get to that, because we are talking about issues about gender and things like that, I thought it would be a good idea to do introductions and include appropriate pronouns. So my name is Linda and my pronouns are she and her. We have off to the side here Lauri who is our camera operator today and who may ask questions at some point. So Lauri please introduce yourself. Lauri: may ask questions at some point. So Lauri, please introduce yourself. I am Lauri and I go by the pronouns she/her. Linda: Now we have our guest, Kris. Kris: I'm Kris and my pronouns are they/them. Linda: What does "they/them" mean in this case? Kris: Yeah, for me, I identify as somebody who is non-binary agender. I don't feel comfort with any kind of binary identity. And as such I do prefer to utilize more neutral language. Linda: You don't feel particularly manly or womanly, would that be a fair statement? Kris: Yes, absolutely. Linda: how did you come to recognize this in yourself? Kris: That's good question. I think context is really important, especially things that influence us as we grow. I am a Gen Xer. I was raised by silent generation folks who were very traditional-minded, very stay within the systems, don't rock the boat. I was not that kid. I was I was referred to as the black sheep in the family. Linda: I was I was referring to Kris: I I as a child would present very much like a tomboy. Linda: Okay. Kris: I did not feel comfortable at all with, you know, the feminine dresses that my mom tried to get me in on Linda: Yeah. Kris: Sundays and things like that. Linda: To just be completely clear, you're saying you were assigned female Kris: Yeah. Linda: at birth and your family raised you as a girl and you were somewhat resistant to that. Mother. Kris: Absolutely. Yes. I was I was resistant. my mother, she she had me later in life, which was unusual. Linda: Which is Kris: I was born in nineteen seventy-six. I'm a little later in the Gen X years. yeah, so my mom really tried to imprint femininity on me. I was more comfortable with the absence of femininity. And so Linda: So Kris: in my mind as a young person, that was more masculine, right? Linda: Okay. Kris: Growing up, I kind of evolved with that. I just turned 50. The pandemic was really kind of what changed for me. That's when I learned language. That's when I found out more about other people like me. to kind of give you a little context there, I always felt like up until the pandemic, up until I found out language and other folks, I always felt like, okay, I don't I don't feel like a girl. I don't feel like a woman, but I don't feel like a man either. And therefore, I'm just not good at being a a woman. Like that's I'm just a bad woman. Like, you know, I just I don't fit it, but I'm not comfortable with it. And I'm just not successful in fitting this. box. It wasn't until I found out there were other folks like me, that I was able to feel that kind of freedom just to say, I don't fit either. Linda: Up until twenty twenty, you just thought you were not good at being a woman. You didn't you didn't get programmed properly. Was there any sense Kris: Mm-hmm. Yes, that's exactly it. Correct. Yeah. Like I just Yeah, absolutely. Was there was there any sense? Linda: of like maybe you belonged in the lesbian community or anything like that? You know it's I went to Kris: You know, it's interesting. I went to undergrad at an all women's school, so I was exposed to that community. During my Linda: might Kris: time in college, that's when I found out that I was pansexual, bisexual at the time. That's what I used the language. But no, I never really felt Linda: No, I never really felt Kris: that. I always, you know, sexually I was attracted to men and women, folks of all genders, so that was never a concern. There was always very much a clear delineation too, I think, as I began Linda: Yeah, to Kris: to mature from childhood into adulthood. I think that that definitely is an influence of how I grew up, referring to my parents and conformity, right? Being somebody who was very comfortable in being different. you know, the black sheep of the family, It was for me, Linda: Me. Kris: what I ended up doing was, compartmentalizing a lot. If I got a piercing, it would be a kind of piercing that could be hidden, right? My parents would always say, You can't get tattoos because you're never gonna get a job, you know? That's how I lived my life, especially with Linda: actually was Kris: my bisexuality, right? And then I I found a man then I fell in love with. And we were married in the late aughts. and Linda: And Kris: then at that point, it's real interesting because I kind Linda: Okay. Kris: of put that away, my what I would refer to as my bisexual or pansexual identity and just kind of fell into marriage life and we had kids. We have two children. And during that time I really was compartmentalizing real hard. And I think the pandemic and the ability to find other people in this world who felt like me allowed me to open up more, not just in terms of my gender identity, but I just think as a person. You know, Linda: Okay. Kris: as a person living, I just felt I am now, I feel like fully who I am. You know, like that is me. I'm realized now. Linda: You're saying you feel comfortable in your own skin and being who you are. Kris: Absolutely. And then I just let go. I'll tell you, like once I had that knowledge, I had so much more peace and happiness in my life. I had struggled a lot with mental illness. right around the time that I found the language for this, I also had an appropriate diagnosis for ADHD, which also helped to positively impact my life. And I just kind of fell into comfort and being myself in a non-compartmentalized way. Linda: Well, you have said so many things, which raise so many questions. I'll try to keep them all together. First, Kris: Any questions on the keyboard? Sure. Linda: you used the word pansexual and bisexual. Kris: Mm-hmm. Linda: So I think people get that Kris: Yeah. Linda: bisexual is somebody who can be attracted to either women or men, regardless of their own gender. But what is pansexual? Kris: Yes. So my feeling on pansexuality are I can be attracted to anyone, you know, aside from whatever their gender identity may be. So understanding that for myself as a non-binary person, there are many experiences of the non-binary. Some folks consider themselves gender queer. They may feel a whole bunch of Linda: Sure. Kris: aspects of gender other than the binary. For myself it's sort of an absence. I don't feel either of those binaries. Linda: That brings up the other way of looking at that, which is even though you don't identify as a gender, that's not the same thing as sexual attraction. Kris: yeah. Linda: And that's true for gay people and it's true for trans people. Those are separate Issues. Your sense of self is different Kris: Yeah. Linda: from that sense of who you're attracted to. And Kris: Exactly. Linda: so even though you say you are agender, you don't feel particularly like a man or a woman. That doesn't mean you can't feel sexual attraction for either men or women or people who don't identify as either. So I summarized that correctly. Kris: Exactly. Mm-hmm. Yes. Perfect. Lauri: when you came to this re Linda: When you came to this realization about yourself and you were already married, how did your husband react to this information? Kris: You know, it's been an experience. He's been supportive. He is a person who is very comfortable in himself, in his own sexuality. So that has not impacted him. I think that there is a part of him that wonders if I were to have surgery, how he would feel about it. The only surgery I really would consider would be top surgery. But, I've had a lot of surgeries and I'm still kind of hedging on that. I don't know if I will be going that way or not, but I think that may be a Linda: I think I know the answer, but I don't want to assume, which is why would you feel like a mastectomy would be something that would be appropriate for you? Kris: Yes. Yeah. There are aspects of being assigned female birth that feel uncomfortable to me. And my chest is one of them. The other aspect is I had mentioned earlier I have children, so gynecological care, I am very to the point of I would say like I definitely have some trauma there. Just because as somebody who did not know what these feelings were that I had deep down, when I started as a teenager, my mom took me to the GYN for the first time. It unlocked a lot of stuff that I didn't quite understand. so right. Linda: So it was a place where you weren't very comfortable and you didn't understand why. Kris: Yeah, it's it's an interesting for me, I think, and I think for maybe a lot of folks that are non-binary, you know, it's your body. It's my body. And, you know, my body, I love it. It gave me two great kids and it takes me through life. But there just are aspects that I am uncomfortable with. And I think beyond the discomfort, there's also a part of being seen, that is something I think about. If I were to have a flat chest would there be more of a chance for folks to just have a pause and wonder? You know, Linda: You know. Kris: I understand that as a non-binary person, I don't owe androgyny to the world. But would be nice for just once or twice if folks didn't automatically Linda: If folks Kris: assume that I was female identifying. Linda: I get that and I'm sure everybody assumes that she and her is the right way to describe you. I can see how top surgery might create enough ambiguity in people's minds that it might make them pause. At the same time, people react very unconsciously to voice and Kris: Mm-hmm. Linda: that's something that is harder to to deal with. Has that been a concern for you? Kris: You know, it's interesting, my relationship with my voice because Linda: Because Kris: I think that as an individual, I'm pretty flexible. I can have a more masc sounding voice, depending on situational, you know. but sometimes my voice can absolutely move more feminine. So my comfort space, let's say I'm in my house, with my family, my voice tends to be a little more masc, a little lower sounding. But you're right. Linda: Like you're Kris: I mean, that's something that on the phone, especially with work, yeah. Linda: That's something that every trans person learned to fear was speaking on the phone. There at least you're trying to give people a very clear choice, A or B. Kris: See. Linda: You're trying to give them not one of those choices, and people's minds aren't naturally going to go there. Maybe a little more these days, Kris: Mm-hmm. Linda: but not very often. So you said Kris: Yeah. Linda: this epiphany for you happened in twenty twenty. How old were your children when this happened? Kris: That's a good point too. My oldest was about 10, and my youngest was about three when this all started. It wasn't until about two years later that I came to say to everyone, I am non-binary and wish to go by they/them. Linda: And by everyone you mean your family. Yeah. So so for a couple of years this was just internal knowledge and you didn't a bit, yeah. Kris: Family, work, everyone. So for a couple of years it was just dangerous. Yeah, I kind of worked through it a little bit. Yeah, like when it came to work, I think it was twenty twenty one. I came out I was using she/they, trying on for comfort and then it was Linda: Anyway Kris: twenty twenty two that I just came out fully with they/them. It's been an interesting process with my family. My oldest, who is now 16, he is super supportive and he's like the pronoun. Yes, he is. It's really quite sweet. He does. He Linda: Pronoun cop in the family. Kris: corrects my husband and my younger son. Another interesting point about language, when it comes to being non-binary, is for me, "mom". Linda: Yeah. Kris: I really wondered about "mom" as a title. and for me, Linda: Yeah. Kris: knowing that my children were well, at least my oldest was 10, I didn't want to remove that from the language. It was important to me that they kept mom. So we keep mom. my youngest still slips. My husband's much better. It took him a little while. Lauri: it took him a little. Is there a word for mom, dad, they, them? Yes. Kris: Yeah, lots of folks. Then they come up with different folks come up with different like Yeah. I've heard Mare. Mare is a word. Uh-huh. yeah, or just parent like my my parental unit. You know, folks can make Linda: You know, like if folks can make Kris: up words. I've seen that too. I have mentioned this before to folks, but I was trying to help Lauri: But Kris: my in-laws with a term for me. and so I proposed to them Linda: With a term for me. and so Kris: "bonus child" which has been accepted. So yeah yeah Linda: Which has been accepted. Yeah, because you're not the daughter in law anymore. And child in law sounds kind of odd. So yeah, there are definitely places where language has to catch up with non-binary. And in fact Kris: Mm hmm. Linda: in our last episode, "The Problem With Pronouns", I talked a little bit about that, but talking about it from the perspective of somebody living it makes it make a lot more sense. Kris: Yeah. I think that folks, at least in my position, have to be comfortable. You have to be comfortable in that in-between space. And you also have to be comfortable with just knowing that no matter what language Linda: No matter what. Kris: you use, folks are just not gonna understand it. Right. 'Cause Linda: Right. Kris: 'cause it's such a unique situation. And especially in the non binary experience. So folks are gonna hear my kids refer to me as mom, but also hear they/them. And it makes sense for us. So Linda: Okay. So it sounds like your family is definitely trying to be supportive and is basically doing that work. Kris: Mm-hmm. Linda: What was it like in your professional life? Kris: I feel that I have been lucky. I work in the human resources space. I would call us the HR folks that you wish you had. Like we're the cool HR folks. Like experienced those. Linda: Well I'd love to have experienced those in my career. Like yes. Kris: Like yes, policy and and all that stuff. Yes, it's very important. But, we also do care deeply about employee experience, culture. And I was accepted without question, and supported in that way. Absolutely. Linda: When you meet someone new, maybe it's a new employee at work or you're running into somebody at the grocery store and talking to them about cantaloupes, I don't know. what sort of introduction do you end up having to do to people to explain who they're talking to? Kris: Yeah, context is important here too, just because Yeah. Yeah. Linda: I I imagine a lot of times it just doesn't matter because it's such a brief fleeting thing, but if this is somebody that you're going to be talking to a little more than just about cantaloupes. So within a Kris: Right. So absolutely. So within a work context, I've got the name badge. I've got the signature on my email, and also living in the south and working in a relatively smallish Linda: Yes. Kris: community, word gets out. So I find that I Linda: So I I Kris: don't have to preface a lot with folks. In my personal life, a lot of my friends are in the local LGBTQ community so that's that's quite simple but you're right, Linda: You're right. Kris: a random grocery store I just don't even bother. Linda: Well, what about with a medical professional? Kris: That has been fraught. I try to keep a pretty kind of laid back approach with my pronouns. I let folks kind of get comfortable with them because I understand they/them is not easy. Okay. It's not natural for a lot of folks. Right. Linda: The funny thing is we do it when we don't know with unconsciously. It's only when we know that it becomes uncomfortable. Exactly. It's like you get to be okay. Kris: Exactly. It's like it gets in your head and all of a sudden you find yourself kind of tripping over it. But yeah, with Linda: Yeah. Yeah. Kris: the medical community, for example, my GP who is connected to our local health system, the website, Linda: the website Kris: My Chart, has my pronouns, right? But nobody looks. I mean just nobody. Linda: Nobody. Yeah, it's been my experience that nobody reads the chart before they come in. them. You were a thousand percent correct. And so even beyond Kris: Nobody reads. You are a thousand percent correct. And even beyond that, in the gynecological space, it's real interesting. Linda: Interest. Kris: I have actually driven substantial amounts of time to find gynecological care that is more sensitive to these things. So I've gone Linda: What? Kris: down to UVA, I've had to take off a whole day of work just to have a traditional doctor's appointment. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Linda: They were Just to get a poking and prodding. Did you find that they actually were more they were. Kris: They were. They absolutely were. And that's something I struggle with. As somebody who was not born in the South, who had no exposure to more rural living until later in life, it's a little frustrating for me, and especially Linda: Yes, it's Kris: as a non-binary person, it's a little frustrating, but I really do have to basically come to a place, I think just Linda: Interesting. Kris: outside of medical terms, but just in general when you're living in the South, in a space that is not understanding or welcoming or both, where you just kind of come to acceptance with it. And yeah, it's hard. Mm-hmm. Linda: It sounds like when you meet somebody or when you interact with somebody, they're going to either have learned this already through the rumor mill, or when it's appropriate, you explain things to them Kris: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Linda: if there's a need to. What is it like when you're just out in the world and people who don't know you but just need to refer to you say, "go talk to her" or "look at her" you know, "she's doing that" or whatever. Is there a discomfort with that or is it just an acceptance of that's kind of the way people are going to see me unless they know not to? Kris: Yeah. It's both. I have discomfort and acceptance at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, Linda: I c can see that, yeah. Kris: I've heard other nonbinary folks say that Linda: Say that Kris: they come to a place where the neutral language doesn't matter to them anymore, and maybe someday I'll get there. Linda: There's definitely that sense of the language reinforcing that they accept who you are. And that's an important thing. And I can see why I mean, I can certainly say that every trans person I've met, it's a big deal to them. And I can imagine it would be to a non binary person as well. Kris: Yeah. Linda: when I was at the PFLAG National Conference last year and there were several non-binary presenters, and most of them were pretty cavalier about their pronouns, where it was like, here are my preferred pronouns, or really anything. And I was having trouble wrapping my own head around that. If this isn't important to you, why should it be important to me? But it might have been them Kris: Wait a minute. Linda: just trying to say, I'm not gonna get too upset no matter what pronoun you use, and that's my way of trying to make you comfortable. So I don't know what was in their head. We didn't talk about it. But I imagine that for many people that are describing that they're accepting just whatever happens, it's just trying to get along in the world, maybe. Kris: Absolutely. And you know, you bring up something that made me think. When I think about being non-binary and folks seeing a person who is assigned female at birth just automatically going there, sometimes I think about my trans friends who are binary. They also Linda: They are Kris: struggle sometimes with folks using correct pronouns. And I'm sensitive to that, especially in the world we live in right now. We have places, not far from where we are, who are not safe. I could easily just elect to just not talk about my pronouns, right? And just kind of fade and be, you know, not. I Linda: Yeah, y yeah, you have the privilege to hide if you choose. Kris: have that privilege and I am very Linda: Very. Kris: aware of that. And I'm very sensitive to that. But at the same time it's very uncomfortable. Linda: I get that. I was lucky enough to have that privilege as well. I'm still not entirely comfortable with having given it up so publicly Kris: Mm-hmm. Linda: so I get what you're saying. It's easy to hide when you have that privilege. Kris: Yeah. Linda: It's not like anybody dealing with some sort of atypical gender situation is doing it to be public. They're doing it because that's who they are. So that "hiding" is just living often. it's not trying to put anything in anybody's face or or trying to hide from the world necessarily. It's just existing in the world as they are. Kris: Exactly. Yeah. And you know, I also think my advocacy is not it's a little more in language than just my pronouns. It is in Linda: Yeah. Kris: language beyond my pronouns because I will be sitting with my friends or co-workers, family, and I'll hear things like the "mailman". Linda: things or Kris: Or "manning the desk". And I'm like, Hey, just checking in here. just wanna say you can use this in you know, so there's more. Linda: They're Yeah. So so there's one question that just popped into my head and then you were the catalyst for it in something you said, which is how do you relate to people? A lot of people will say, Well, I'm drawn to conversations with women because they are this stereotypical aspect of women or I like conversations with men because of this. And when you're relating to people, do you feel drawn to one or neither or...? No, it's interesting. Kris: You know, it's interesting. Growing up, I had a lot of male friends. and then through college and such, i I went the other way. so I'm comfortable with anyone, really. Linda: so either. Yeah. Kris: yeah, that's not a concern for me. Lauri: When I came out as a lesbian, I just assumed at that point everybody was a lesbian. So do you just assume that people are they/them? actually Linda: Let's try So do you just assume that people say that So actually I Kris: You just assume that people are they then? So actually I do kind of default. So I will always default to a neutral until Linda: the default. So I will always default. Kris: I know somebody's, identity. I do absolutely do that. Linda: I think that's a great idea. Just default to neutral until you're certain otherwise. That's what I've been trying to do. Kris: That's what I've been trying, especially with my kids, to try to teach them to just kind of go with the flow, follow the person's cues, and until then, just keep neutral language. Linda: Yeah, that's a terrific idea. We've Kris: you Linda: covered a lot of ground and it's certainly been enlightening for me, so thanks. Is there something we Kris: Is there something? Linda: haven't talked about that you think is relevant to this story? Kris: I think that the thing that I try to get across to folks the most is twofold. I covered a little bit of it with watching your language just in general. And it's not just from the non-binary aspect. I mean, seriously, we have female mail carriers. You know, I mean, come on. Yeah, like, you know, it's 2026. Let's Linda: Yeah. Like you know, it's twelve Kris: let's just change our language a little bit. But, beyond that, I do know that there are some folks, I'll use work as an example, who are uncomfortable with the idea of a non-binary person like myself because they simply don't understand it. And to that, I just say I'm a person, just like anyone else. And how my identity is shaped is just different. And for folks who feel uncomfortable with language, I've always told my husband when he started out, I said, just use my name. I know it feels a little awkward to say my name in place of pronouns, but it is a a practice that folks can do when they start out with that process. Linda: Yeah. Yeah. And for people who were uncomfortable with someone else's identity, it's really not something that affects them. They really just need to get over it. And I'm not trying to be rude or anything like that, but truly, if it's Kris: No, Linda: not something that affects your life, then what difference does it make to you? You know Kris: Yeah. You know, and now we're gonna get into some philosophical things. I Linda: Things Kris: think about folks that may have for whatever reason, issues, maybe religious, right? And I just think about Just acknowledging somebody as a person and being kind to people as humanity that we are is important. Yeah. Linda: Yeah. Yeah, We could go down a whole nother rabbit hole on that conversation and I think it's a good conversation to have, but I think we'd be here for another hour. But yes, I agree with Kris: Absolutely. Linda: you completely. You don't have to agree with someone to be kind to them. Kris: Mm. Linda: And our culture seems to have lost that somewhere along Kris: Yeah. Linda: the line. Kris: Yeah, absolutely. And one of my favorite people who existed in this world, Fred Rogers, you know, he always talked about being neighbors. Sometimes I just use that as the language. I'm a neighbor. So yeah. Lauri: And one of my favorite people who existed in this world, Fred Rogers, you know, he always talked about being neighbors. sometimes I just use that as the language. I'm a neighbor. so yeah, Linda: Klaus. Lauri: thank you so much for coming by and educating me on a topic about which Linda: Thank you so much for coming by and educating me on a topic about which Kris: Thank you. Linda: I freely admit I knew very little other than, Lauri: I freely admit I knew very little Linda: what you read in a book. And that's not the same as talking to somebody who's experienced it. So thank you very much. I think this will help Kris: you. Linda: people understand at least this Kris: It's this Linda: aspect of what it means to be non-binary. And what's clear from our conversation with Kris is that this is just one way somebody can be non-binary. Maybe we'll find somebody who's Kris: Yeah. Linda: gender queer or gender fluid to talk about it from that aspect, because I think that's another place where there's a lot of misunderstanding. And with that, that's a perfect segue for me to say. If you're out there and you have a story you'd like to share, please let me know. You can contact me at spectrum podcasthost at gmail dot com. And we can talk about it. If it's a story where you need to remain anonymous, we can make that happen to protect you. There's some housekeeping notes. If you're listening to this on Apple Podcasts, the video is available there as well. So you can get video on Apple Podcasts or on YouTube now. The shorts from these longer form videos are available pretty much everywhere: YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and X, and the long forms are available in audio podcasts, wherever you get an audio podcast and in video on Apple Podcasts and YouTube. If you want to support the podcast on YouTube, liking and subscribing helps get the algorithm to send it to other people. I'm Lauri: If you want to support the podcast on YouTube, liking and subscribing helps get the algorithm to send it to other people. Linda: sure you've heard this a million times by now, but I have to say it too. Thank you, Kris, for showing up today and having a really Kris: Thank you. Linda: interesting conversation. And Lauri, thank you for pushing all the buttons. Thanks so much and we'll see you next time. Until then, take care.