Latest / UK Column Radio / UK Column News — 13th July 2026

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UK Column News — 13th July 2026 · UK Column Radio

0:08
Speaker 1: Good afternoon. It is Monday, thirteenth of July twenty twenty six,
0:14
Speaker 1: just after one o'clock. You're watching UK column News. I'm
0:18
Speaker 1: your host, Ben Rubin, and I am delighted to be
0:21
Speaker 1: joined in the studio today by mister Brian Gerrish, I Briant,
0:24
Speaker 1: pleasure to be, always a pleasure and we're going to
0:27
Speaker 1: be joined from studio too by mister Will Keats a
0:30
Speaker 1: bit later on in the show. Very much looking forward
0:32
Speaker 1: to that. So we've got a packed agenda today. As always,
0:37
Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about the ongoing and increasing
0:41
Speaker 1: attack on jury trials and the British constitution, the outbreak
0:46
Speaker 1: of wildfires across the country and more widely across Europe,
0:50
Speaker 1: and what we think might be driving some of that,
0:52
Speaker 1: the renewed media attacks on Nigel Farage in the run
0:56
Speaker 1: up to the Clacton by election, Andy Burnham's position on
1:00
Speaker 1: planning laws, particularly as it relates to the building of
1:04
Speaker 1: digital infrastructure a very important issue, the talmudic nature of
1:08
Speaker 1: artificial intelligence, and the shift of Britain from being a
1:14
Speaker 1: Christian to a post Christian to an anti Christian society,
1:18
Speaker 1: and I think potentially back again in the other direction.
1:22
Speaker 1: Before we get into all of that, we're going to
1:24
Speaker 1: be talking about and paying tribute to the late An
1:28
Speaker 1: Wido Comb and examining some of the evolving circumstances around
1:34
Speaker 1: her death last week.
1:35
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, spent well, absolutely tragic. If we
1:39
Speaker 2: just would come on screen there this picture now, this
1:43
Speaker 2: was taken from the video interview that David Ellis did
1:48
Speaker 2: whilst he was with the UK column and Mike also
1:52
Speaker 2: present on that day. Well, what we wanted to do
1:56
Speaker 2: is really remember this lady and the tremendous amount of
1:59
Speaker 2: work that she did, not only in politics but standing
2:03
Speaker 2: up for a country. So she was a member of
2:06
Speaker 2: the Conservative Party, she was later part of the Brexit Party.
2:10
Speaker 2: She actually stood in the same constituency that I stood
2:14
Speaker 2: for many years ago, where she did retain her deposit
2:21
Speaker 2: but came in third, So that was Sutton constituency in Plymouth.
2:27
Speaker 2: But really a remarkable career and a tragic, very tragic ending.
2:32
Speaker 2: We just want to go through some of the reports
2:35
Speaker 2: that have opened up about her death and the fact
2:39
Speaker 2: that there are a number of questions to be asked
2:41
Speaker 2: about how this is being handled by the police and
2:44
Speaker 2: in deep political circles, and we'll explain this as we
2:47
Speaker 2: go through, but let's have a look at the first clip,
2:50
Speaker 2: which is the Chief Constable from Devon and Cornwall talking
2:54
Speaker 2: about the death as it occurred last week. At the
2:58
Speaker 2: end of last week, we.
3:00
Speaker 3: Can confirm that the twenty six year old man was
3:03
Speaker 3: arrested at and addressed in nut Nabbot this afternoon on
3:05
Speaker 3: suspicion of the murder of Anne Whiocomb. The suspect, who
3:09
Speaker 3: is a white British national, remains in police custody. Last
3:13
Speaker 3: inquiries and continue. Officers records to Miss Whittockom's home at
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Speaker 3: Haytor by the Ambulance Service around eleven forty am on Thursday,
3:23
Speaker 3: the ninth of July. Sadly, the seventy eight year old
3:27
Speaker 3: Miss Whtocombe was located deceased within the property.
3:31
Speaker 1: She is sustaining serious injuries.
3:35
Speaker 3: And next to the kid had been informed and are
3:37
Speaker 3: being supported by especially trained officers. Detectives from the Forced
3:41
Speaker 3: Major Crime Investigation Team have launched a murder investigation and
3:45
Speaker 3: are conducting extentsive inquiries. Is the circumstances surrounding Miss Widickom's death.
3:54
Speaker 2: So that was just an overview of the first report,
3:57
Speaker 2: but also around that report, the police was saying that
4:00
Speaker 2: they'd engaged the terrorist polease in order to help them investigate.
4:05
Speaker 2: So the police absolutely in the beginning connecting it by
4:10
Speaker 2: the use of terrorists police or anti terrorist police with
4:13
Speaker 2: the fact there was something more to this. Now we
4:15
Speaker 2: get to today and the son has put out this
4:19
Speaker 2: report about the second man that has now been arrested
4:24
Speaker 2: in relation to Wigcom's death. Let's have a look at
4:29
Speaker 2: the Sun report.
4:32
Speaker 4: The driveway footage shows the twenty eight year old man
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Speaker 4: now arrested by police getting into a red hatchback with
4:39
Speaker 4: a large object described by neighbors as a wooden battern
4:42
Speaker 4: protruding from a pocket. He left his home shortly before
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Speaker 4: eight am last Wednesday, and he's suspected of driving two
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Speaker 4: hundred and sixty seven miles to the seventy eight year
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Speaker 4: old's home on Dartmoor. Police say, and died after being
4:56
Speaker 4: attacked at her bungalow in the remote village of Hater
5:00
Speaker 4: at twelve thirty pm that day. This is the police
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Speaker 4: scene behind me here in Rotherham where police arrested a
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Speaker 4: twenty eight year old man our suspicion of murdering politician
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Speaker 4: and Whittocombe. A number of unmarked police cars were joined
5:14
Speaker 4: by a police SUV and armed cops. They went inside,
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Speaker 4: arrested the man, handcuffed him in the garden and pulled
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Speaker 4: him out, putting him into the back of a police
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Speaker 4: fan and taking him away. It's understood that he will
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Speaker 4: be transported from here in Rotherham down to Devon and
5:30
Speaker 4: Cornwall Police station where he will be interviewed in the
5:33
Speaker 4: coming hours and days in relation to the murder of
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Speaker 4: Anne Whittacombe. Now, we already know that Anne was interviewed
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Speaker 4: on Talk TV at eight am on Wednesday, just after
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Speaker 4: the suspect being held by police for her murder set
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Speaker 4: off from home and was due to appear later on
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Speaker 4: Channel five's Matt Alright Show at one pm. We also
5:55
Speaker 4: know that she replied to a text message from a
5:57
Speaker 4: producer at twelve nineteen and was due to link up
6:01
Speaker 4: via a zoom meeting at least half an hour later,
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Speaker 4: but never appeared. The police believed that that time's the
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Speaker 4: murder at around twelve thirty, and it was over twenty
6:14
Speaker 4: four hours later that her body, covered in blood from
6:18
Speaker 4: severe blunt trauma, was discovered by a karr who wanted
6:22
Speaker 4: to check in on her, just to make sure she
6:24
Speaker 4: was okay. That Kara raised the alarm and police began
6:29
Speaker 4: a huge murder probe and launched an immediate manhunt. And
6:34
Speaker 4: that man hunt led here to this red brick council
6:37
Speaker 4: house in Rotherham, where on Saturday night, shortly before ten pm,
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Speaker 4: a fleet of police cars, both marked and unmarked, swooped
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Speaker 4: on the property to arrest their prime suspect for the
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Speaker 4: killing the murder of Anne Whittacombe. Officers both armed and
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Speaker 4: plane clothed, entered the property via the front and the back,
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Speaker 4: and moments later they're suspense was led out into the
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Speaker 4: front garden where he was handcuffed and then walked to
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Speaker 4: a nearby police van and placed in the back. He
7:08
Speaker 4: was driven away to a nearby police station and it
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Speaker 4: is believed that he has been transported now from South
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Speaker 4: Yorkshire from his home in Rotherham towards Cornwall where he
7:19
Speaker 4: will be formally interviewed.
7:23
Speaker 2: That's the report. Quite a comprehensive little report, Ben, but
7:27
Speaker 2: so many questions for me. How did the son actually
7:30
Speaker 2: note the identity of this man? Was it released by
7:33
Speaker 2: the police together with his address, or did some members
7:36
Speaker 2: of the family possibly contact the Sun either seemed strange
7:41
Speaker 2: because from anything else, the police had got police police
7:47
Speaker 2: officers present with the family. This is part of this
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Speaker 2: new regime that the police stay with the victims of
7:53
Speaker 2: crime to help make sure they don't say anything which
7:56
Speaker 2: could be work against them on social media for example.
8:00
Speaker 2: But also a remarkably well placed video camera.
8:04
Speaker 1: Several remarkably well placed with video cameras.
8:07
Speaker 2: Here indeed, so lots of questions to be asked. But
8:11
Speaker 2: that was the report that came out from the Sun.
8:14
Speaker 2: Now if we just apologies, just go back here to
8:19
Speaker 2: Devon Live report from a couple of days ago and
8:22
Speaker 2: Whittickam murder investigation latest as Farrage told not to speculate
8:27
Speaker 2: so immediately whilst they are reporting on this murder investigation,
8:32
Speaker 2: there is an attack on Farage and we'll come on
8:35
Speaker 2: to that in a bit. But the key points were
8:38
Speaker 2: that the police said that they weren't looking for anyone
8:42
Speaker 2: else after the horrific murder of Am Whittickumbe. They also
8:46
Speaker 2: said that a twenty eight year old white man was
8:48
Speaker 2: arrested in Rotherham, South Yorkshire, shortly after nine pm yesterday.
8:53
Speaker 2: That was Saturday, and the police Assistant Chief Constable Matt
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Speaker 2: Longman said that devn call police, We're not looking for
9:01
Speaker 2: anybody else, and they said that there was no information
9:05
Speaker 2: suggest it was a terrorism related incident, and the police
9:09
Speaker 2: were open minded about the motive. Now, this of course
9:13
Speaker 2: is in contrast to what the police said at at
9:16
Speaker 2: the very beginning, but he added there was nothing to
9:18
Speaker 2: suggest that it was politically motivated at this stage. And
9:22
Speaker 2: then the Assistant Chief Constable Longmino public not speculate online,
9:28
Speaker 2: describing it as unhelpful and distressing to the family and
9:32
Speaker 2: friends of miss whitticumbe But what was the Sun doing
9:35
Speaker 2: in that extended report? And there are so many questions
9:39
Speaker 2: to be asked. If you're remember of the public, you
9:41
Speaker 2: shouldn't be talking about this, apparently because it's distressing for
9:45
Speaker 2: the family. But if you're the Sun newspaper, you know
9:48
Speaker 2: the man, you know the address, and you can start
9:51
Speaker 2: to build up your own investigation of the story. So
9:54
Speaker 2: very many questions here. But I'd just like to remind
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Speaker 2: our audience that szen and call police quickly use the
10:02
Speaker 2: assistance of counter terrorist police, but then say there's no
10:05
Speaker 2: information to say that it's terrorist terrorists related Now, what's
10:09
Speaker 2: special about Whiddycumbe. Let's go back to the interview that
10:15
Speaker 2: David Alis did with her, and I'm going to deliberately
10:18
Speaker 2: repeat the little clip that Mike played on the UK
10:21
Speaker 2: column News on Friday, because I think that what she's
10:24
Speaker 2: talking about is so important. So let's listen to this
10:27
Speaker 2: first little clip.
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Speaker 5: In the level of the fines, for example, and the
10:34
Speaker 5: ability of people being told to snitch on their neighbors.
10:37
Speaker 5: You know, we're running a quasi starz he here. I mean,
10:40
Speaker 5: it's quite wrong, but that wasn't quite what you asked me.
10:45
Speaker 5: If we go back to what you were asking, has
10:47
Speaker 5: military anything to do with the narrative of the answer,
10:49
Speaker 5: isn't it?
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Speaker 6: I think that's that's that's exactly the case. It's delighted
10:55
Speaker 6: that you've highlighted the sort of ministers becoming to an
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Speaker 6: extent invisible, because it looks like we've got the failure
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Speaker 6: of cabinet government and somebody that'sd in cabinet government. You know,
11:06
Speaker 6: what's your take on the current situation that we don't
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Speaker 6: seem to have action and resolution in any timely fashion.
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Speaker 5: Well, I think that if you went out upon the
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Speaker 5: streets with a microphone at the moment, and you ask
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Speaker 5: people to name Shay the Sextroy of State Transport or
11:22
Speaker 5: whatever it might be, people would be very hard put
11:26
Speaker 5: because we're not seeing cabinet government at the moment. What
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Speaker 5: we're seeing is a dictatorship of a few under emergency powers.
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Speaker 2: So key warning words. She's looking at the system, she's
11:39
Speaker 2: describing it with the word starzi. She's talking about missing
11:43
Speaker 2: or invisible ministers no longer consulted in the reports from
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Speaker 2: the mainstream press, very very critical analysis. Now there are
11:52
Speaker 2: some of the things that widycumb said UK column would
11:56
Speaker 2: not agree with. But if you take a commentary on
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Speaker 2: all she saw, something very dangerous was coming into play
12:04
Speaker 2: in the United Kingdom. Let's listen to the second part,
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Speaker 2: second little clip from that interview.
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Speaker 6: Definitely and something that you would not like to see.
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Speaker 5: It's something I'm quite determined should never happen. But also
12:19
Speaker 5: I think you've got to consider what you don't want
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Speaker 5: to get It is police versus is the people versus
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Speaker 5: the military, and if the military are on the streets
12:28
Speaker 5: keeping order, telling people what to do, that could set
12:32
Speaker 5: up quite attention which is completely unnecessary. And I don't
12:37
Speaker 5: know whose wild idea. It was, but it needs to
12:40
Speaker 5: be very firmly put back in its box.
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Speaker 6: You don't think under current circumstances that it's justified at all.
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Speaker 5: Look, if we had riots on the streets every night,
12:51
Speaker 5: and if we had a civil war or something, then
12:54
Speaker 5: you might talk about the government using the military. But
12:57
Speaker 5: for heaven's sake, when all you want is ordinary effective policing,
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Speaker 5: that is not a job for the military.
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Speaker 2: So and picking up there on suggestions at that time,
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Speaker 2: we're talking a few years ago that the police and
13:14
Speaker 2: the military should be much closer together than Remember, of course,
13:17
Speaker 2: during the COVID nineteen period, we had seventy seven Brigade
13:23
Speaker 2: in intelligence part of the army, being used to target
13:26
Speaker 2: members of the public in case they were being active
13:30
Speaker 2: and challenging the government's policy. And we're to come clearly
13:34
Speaker 2: seeing dangers. Now let's come to the present. Last few
13:37
Speaker 2: days we had trouble on the streets in London, a's
13:40
Speaker 2: result of Morocco losing their match to with France. And
13:45
Speaker 2: if we just bring a little bit of the action
13:49
Speaker 2: onto your screen, this is what the police were faced with,
13:52
Speaker 2: I believe, in Tottenham Court Road, and quite dangerous for
13:56
Speaker 2: the police, because you will see that eventually a relatively
14:00
Speaker 2: small group of police, and these are not riot control police,
14:04
Speaker 2: are actually surrounded by the crowd near their van. So
14:08
Speaker 2: this had the potential to become very dangerous if this
14:12
Speaker 2: crowd had got too aggressive. There are the police. They
14:16
Speaker 2: retreated back to their van, but essentially they are surrounded
14:19
Speaker 2: by the crowd that using smoke and fireworked. Now, when
14:23
Speaker 2: I spoke to a member of the community in London,
14:26
Speaker 2: he said, well, we've seen all sorts of trouble with
14:29
Speaker 2: football fans, so there's in some ways nothing very special
14:34
Speaker 2: here with the Moroccan fans. But the point I'm making
14:38
Speaker 2: for our audience today is that increasingly we are seeing
14:42
Speaker 2: trouble on our streets. And and Whiddickham clearly warning back
14:46
Speaker 2: there that this could be the trigger to bring in
14:51
Speaker 2: the army on the streets. So this lady very perceptive
14:54
Speaker 2: as to what was going on. Now let's move over
14:57
Speaker 2: to Nigel Frage tending her property in order to lay
15:02
Speaker 2: some flowers, and he made some comment about Anne Widcombe.
15:05
Speaker 2: Let's listen to what he said.
15:17
Speaker 7: She was a remarkable individual, redoubtable. I think the word
15:23
Speaker 7: was invented for her opponents knew exactly what you expect
15:27
Speaker 7: from her, and at times, I have to say, colleagues
15:30
Speaker 7: did feel the wrath of her tongue. She was the
15:33
Speaker 7: fiercest proponent of free speech I think I've ever met.
15:36
Speaker 7: She believed that we had the freedom and the right
15:38
Speaker 7: to say things that insulted each other. Her career in politics,
15:42
Speaker 7: of course, spanned decades as a minister and then for
15:45
Speaker 7: many years as a shadow minister, and I spoke to
15:48
Speaker 7: one of her colleagues last night who said, during those
15:50
Speaker 7: years in a shadow cabinet, she was the only one
15:53
Speaker 7: who always, always, always spoke up for what she believed
15:58
Speaker 7: to be the national interest. Patriotism was deep within her family.
16:03
Speaker 7: She was immensely proud of the work her father had
16:06
Speaker 7: done with the Royal Navy during the war. Suddenly, in
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Speaker 7: twenty nineteen, as it appeared that the Brexit vote wasn't
16:13
Speaker 7: actually going to be carried out for the government or Parliament,
16:16
Speaker 7: I took a phone call one day at Whittingham here
16:19
Speaker 7: I sort of stood to attention, I mean you would,
16:22
Speaker 7: announcing that she'd love to run for US in the
16:24
Speaker 7: European elections. Her joining what was a completely brand new
16:28
Speaker 7: party directly contributed to us winning by a country mile
16:33
Speaker 7: six weeks later.
16:36
Speaker 2: So we had Devan Lives using the police report into
16:40
Speaker 2: the death of Anne Where did it Come? That was
16:41
Speaker 2: used to attack Nigel Frage for making what I think
16:45
Speaker 2: was a very measured commentary on her. And as our
16:47
Speaker 2: audience will now, I certainly don't agree with a lot
16:50
Speaker 2: of things that David that Nigel Ffrrage says and does,
16:54
Speaker 2: but in this case he was very measured. But what
16:57
Speaker 2: did he say in his opinion and we become was
17:00
Speaker 2: a major major boost to effectively winning Brexit. That would
17:05
Speaker 2: make her very very unpopular with a great deal of
17:09
Speaker 2: people in the higher levels of the politics and the
17:12
Speaker 2: establishment in UK. Now, on top of that, if we
17:15
Speaker 2: go back to the beginning of the year, Dominic Cummins
17:19
Speaker 2: just come back here. Dominic Cummings was actually warning that
17:23
Speaker 2: there was a campaign to quote destroy Nigel Frage and
17:27
Speaker 2: this was commented on by the Spectator. We've got a
17:31
Speaker 2: little video clip of Cummings talking where he says what
17:35
Speaker 2: he feels.
17:38
Speaker 8: Don when we interviewed him a few months ago said
17:41
Speaker 8: two things which have come to pass.
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Speaker 9: Let's smash the absolute living shit out Farage and make
17:50
Speaker 9: sure that he doesn't win by you all by fair
17:52
Speaker 9: means and foul the League medical records, the League tax records,
17:57
Speaker 9: they'll bug his phone and leaked and leaked that they'll
18:00
Speaker 9: do anything that they need to. You watch Hillary John
18:02
Speaker 9: Carry and what not. Now they're extremely explicit in saying, quote,
18:07
Speaker 9: the First Amendment was a historic mistake and it must
18:10
Speaker 9: be undone quote.
18:12
Speaker 8: Both of those things are happening now. I say that
18:14
Speaker 8: as someone who thinks Farage has a case to answer.
18:18
Speaker 8: He has not handled this issue well, and there are
18:21
Speaker 8: big questions about reformers fitness to govern. But nevertheless, is
18:25
Speaker 8: it the case that all of these things coming together
18:28
Speaker 8: are just a little too convenient for the anti Farrarge forces?
18:34
Speaker 2: In some ways, I'm not giving answers to exactly what's
18:37
Speaker 2: happening here, but I'm pointing people at questions to be asked,
18:41
Speaker 2: because Michael go there starting to say there's something possibly
18:47
Speaker 2: not quite right.
18:48
Speaker 10: Now.
18:48
Speaker 2: Is the on side of UK or offside? We don't
18:53
Speaker 2: know that either, but key comments from Cummings. Now, let's
18:56
Speaker 2: also just have a quick look at what's been reported
18:59
Speaker 2: in the press around Nigel Farrage, because a while back
19:02
Speaker 2: he was under fire for taking a mere five hundred
19:06
Speaker 2: k in donations that had come into Reform that's increased
19:10
Speaker 2: now to five million, and he's being slaughtered really in
19:17
Speaker 2: the press. And why is this Well, of course, even
19:22
Speaker 2: if Nigel Ffrage as a leader was not doing the
19:24
Speaker 2: right things, the body of the Reform Church or indeed
19:28
Speaker 2: Restore could take the right actions in order to tackle
19:32
Speaker 2: the breakdown of this country and its infrastructure, the constitution
19:38
Speaker 2: and the rule of law. So at the moment, is
19:42
Speaker 2: there a reason why the deep state should be attacking
19:45
Speaker 2: on the back of the death of Anne Whittacombe and
19:48
Speaker 2: getting for Nigel Frage and Restore and Reform, Yes, indeed
19:54
Speaker 2: there is. Now. Just contrast the way the press is
19:57
Speaker 2: behaving with Nigel Ffrage with this report on Labor. This
20:03
Speaker 2: was open democracy. From a little while ago. Labour given
20:07
Speaker 2: four million from tax Haven based hedge fund with shares
20:12
Speaker 2: in oil and arms. You're very familiar with this hedge fund, Ben,
20:17
Speaker 2: Let's just bring it on screen. This is quadrature. They
20:20
Speaker 2: say we're building the ultimate automated trading business. They put
20:25
Speaker 2: four million into the Labor Party. But of course that
20:28
Speaker 2: comes with strings. And if we have a look at
20:30
Speaker 2: what those strings are. This is the statement by Quadrature itself,
20:35
Speaker 2: and it said that they've been having a look at
20:38
Speaker 2: the UK government's commitment to the green transition of the
20:41
Speaker 2: economy and would have the and would it have the
20:44
Speaker 2: ability to drive change that's so urgently needed. They decided
20:49
Speaker 2: that Labor was the best party to support in that
20:53
Speaker 2: it had policies that will deliver climate action while also
20:57
Speaker 2: promoting social equity and economic resilience. So this is love
21:02
Speaker 2: being on a vast scale, Ben, but at least it's open.
21:07
Speaker 2: This hedge fund says we're putting the money in so
21:10
Speaker 2: that we can get what we want out of the
21:12
Speaker 2: Labor Party. But if money goes into Nigel Frage and
21:17
Speaker 2: Reform or Restore, then of course the deep state and
21:21
Speaker 2: the existing political powers are going to challenge that flat out.
21:25
Speaker 2: There's something very dirty going on here, and I think
21:30
Speaker 2: and Widickumb was absolutely right when she's starting to use
21:33
Speaker 2: terms like star zy. She's starting to look at the
21:38
Speaker 2: breakdown of the state, ministers becoming invisible, and I think
21:43
Speaker 2: that some of her early warnings from several years ago
21:46
Speaker 2: were absolutely spot on. The money. Is that connected with
21:51
Speaker 2: her death, we don't know, but certainly lots of questions
21:54
Speaker 2: to be asked.
21:55
Speaker 1: Those questions to be asked, Yes, so rest in peace
21:58
Speaker 1: and widikemb. I actually saw her not so long ago.
22:00
Speaker 1: I attended Massive Buckfast Abbey and I was sitting immediately
22:05
Speaker 1: behind her. She was on the peer in front of me,
22:08
Speaker 1: and she was praying her heart out. I would say
22:12
Speaker 1: she was on her knees. She was, she was seems
22:17
Speaker 1: almost like she was wrestling with something. Actually, you know
22:20
Speaker 1: it was it was. It was interesting seeing her in
22:22
Speaker 1: public and then for this to happen just a few
22:24
Speaker 1: weeks later. It was quite quite remarkable for me.
22:27
Speaker 2: So so a very personal and poignant movement there to be. Yeah,
22:32
Speaker 2: it was in church and clearly a spiritual lady who
22:37
Speaker 2: was praying for.
22:39
Speaker 1: What we don't know, Well, yeah, we certainly don't, but
22:43
Speaker 1: I do think that she would resonate very strongly with
22:47
Speaker 1: the next story that we're going to talk about is
22:49
Speaker 1: we're going to look at the transition of British society
22:53
Speaker 1: from Christian to post Christian to anti Christian, which is
22:58
Speaker 1: where we are now, and I think and back again.
23:01
Speaker 1: And there's a good, a good ending to this segment
23:05
Speaker 1: which will come on too shortly now. This is going
23:07
Speaker 1: to focus around a story that's been ongoing for some time.
23:11
Speaker 1: It relates to this organization, Trent College and the Elms.
23:16
Speaker 1: And this is very familiar to me because I actually
23:18
Speaker 1: went to that school between nineteen ninety five and two
23:21
Speaker 1: thousand and we had a different head. Back then it
23:24
Speaker 1: was called mister Lee. We've now got mister Penty who's
23:27
Speaker 1: the head at Trent College. And then the junior school
23:29
Speaker 1: is the Elms. I didn't attend the junior school, but
23:32
Speaker 1: it seems to have changed quite a bit. It's still
23:34
Speaker 1: got beautiful grounds, but you know it's developed, got larger,
23:39
Speaker 1: expanded its state. And mister Penty and others decided a
23:44
Speaker 1: good few years ago now to invite this lady in
23:47
Speaker 1: to talk to the staff and to the pupils about
23:52
Speaker 1: educate and celebrate and the LGBT LGBTQ plus agenda. Did
23:58
Speaker 1: I get that right? Timmy letters?
24:01
Speaker 2: Now, it's pretty difficult to keep track with it all,
24:05
Speaker 2: but I would say this is exactly the agenda and
24:08
Speaker 2: the classroom activity that's being challenged by the women of
24:12
Speaker 2: Public Child Protection Whales Yes and doing such fantastic work
24:17
Speaker 2: to expose the effectively the grooming of children through this
24:22
Speaker 2: type of syllabus exactly.
24:25
Speaker 1: Yes, So if we could just bring Eddie Barnes back
24:28
Speaker 1: on screen. So just to give you a bit of
24:30
Speaker 1: background here, So this was a new organization, Educate and Celebrate.
24:34
Speaker 1: She set it up. It had government grants at the time,
24:36
Speaker 1: but it didn't have any kind of formal accreditation and
24:39
Speaker 1: it had been established to in their own words, embed
24:42
Speaker 1: education on gender and gender identity and sexual orientation into
24:46
Speaker 1: schools with a focus on primary and secondary education. So
24:50
Speaker 1: this is from five years old, and their aim was
24:54
Speaker 1: to suppress biphobia, homophobia and transphobia, to break the gender
24:59
Speaker 1: buyer and importantly smash heteronormativity. That was what they were
25:06
Speaker 1: there to do as part of their training. Now they
25:09
Speaker 1: ran into a bit of a snag because on the
25:12
Speaker 1: staff at the time, as this gentleman, this is Reverend
25:15
Speaker 1: doctor Bernard Randall. He is a doctor because he has
25:18
Speaker 1: a PhD from Oxford. He then went on to be
25:21
Speaker 1: a chaplain at one of the colleges in Cambridge University.
25:24
Speaker 1: He then became the chaplain at Trent College. So this
25:27
Speaker 1: is an Anglican school with an Anglican chapel, with an
25:30
Speaker 1: Anglican ethos and as an Anglican priest, he raised concerns
25:37
Speaker 1: about the sessions being run by educating celebrating the idea
25:41
Speaker 1: that we needed to smash heteronormativity. He raised these concerns
25:47
Speaker 1: with staff, for which staff decided to support him to
25:52
Speaker 1: prevent as a potential terror threat. For expressing these concerns.
25:59
Speaker 1: He was then prevent by the way turned that away,
26:02
Speaker 1: so they said there's no case to answer here. The
26:05
Speaker 1: school then comes contacted the local authority to see what
26:08
Speaker 1: they could do. In the meantime, while this was going on,
26:10
Speaker 1: a number of the children in the school came to
26:13
Speaker 1: Bernard Randall to ask his opinion on these courses and
26:18
Speaker 1: he told them essentially to make up their own minds.
26:21
Speaker 1: And he delivered a sermon in chapel which I think
26:24
Speaker 1: we used to do two or three times a week,
26:26
Speaker 1: basically saying the Christian view of marriages is between a
26:29
Speaker 1: man and a woman, and what I encourage you to
26:31
Speaker 1: do is to interrogate any ideas put in front of
26:33
Speaker 1: you and to make up your own mind. We seem reasonable,
26:36
Speaker 1: entirely reasonable, doesn't it, And unfortunately for him that got
26:42
Speaker 1: him into a lot of trouble. So the school then
26:45
Speaker 1: went to the Bishop of Darby, this lady Libby Lane,
26:48
Speaker 1: who was the first woman appointed as a bishop in
26:51
Speaker 1: the Church of England, who is a feminist and apparently
26:54
Speaker 1: sees herself as a natural ally of LGBTQ activism, and
26:58
Speaker 1: she decided that he was an acute safeguarding risk because
27:02
Speaker 1: of what he'd done, and that he should be sacked.
27:06
Speaker 1: And we've got a little clip now of Bernard describing
27:08
Speaker 1: that process and what he went through.
27:11
Speaker 10: The situation I've been put in is so absurd. You know,
27:15
Speaker 10: how can the Church of England bar one of its
27:18
Speaker 10: own clergy from ministry from preaching simply because he taught
27:26
Speaker 10: what the Church of England teaches Marriage should only properly
27:29
Speaker 10: be understood as being a lifelong, exclusive union of a man.
27:32
Speaker 1: And a woman.
27:33
Speaker 10: This is only about the sermon. There's no concern about
27:36
Speaker 10: any actual behavior with anybody, and there's no evidence I've
27:41
Speaker 10: ever behaved inappropriately that no evidence of anything that I've
27:45
Speaker 10: ever done wrong. Is just about the sermon. All I
27:57
Speaker 10: was doing was saying the Church of England's teaching is
27:59
Speaker 10: pops and you may accept it. And so I'm sorry.
28:03
Speaker 10: I'm not going to apologize for a sermon which says
28:05
Speaker 10: you may accept the Church of England's teaching. I was
28:07
Speaker 10: ordained in the Church of England to proclaim the Church's teaching.
28:10
Speaker 10: I can come in, I can sit and worship in
28:13
Speaker 10: the congregation, but I wouldn't be allowed to sit here
28:15
Speaker 10: at the front as a minister. I wouldn't be allowed
28:18
Speaker 10: to go up to the communion table to preside over
28:22
Speaker 10: the Lord's supper. My fear is what has happened to
28:24
Speaker 10: me is what will happen to lots and lots of
28:28
Speaker 10: people five ten years down the line.
28:33
Speaker 2: So my initial reaction to that is that what he
28:36
Speaker 2: is describing and what's happened to him, that is a
28:39
Speaker 2: starz y state at work, and that stars e state
28:43
Speaker 2: wants the minds of the children, is going to go
28:46
Speaker 2: for the children. And I'll just come back think about
28:49
Speaker 2: what Whittickumb was warning about all those years ago, and
28:54
Speaker 2: clearly her mind and her memory were absolutely spot on
28:59
Speaker 2: to be able to judge what was happening and what
29:02
Speaker 2: has been happening in the United Kingdom in twenty twenty six.
29:06
Speaker 1: Indeed, with this being a particularly pronounced example of that,
29:11
Speaker 1: I would say, but it's happening absolutely everywhere, So Bernhard
29:16
Speaker 1: was defrocks. He then went to an employment employment tribunal
29:21
Speaker 1: and the tribunal found against him on every account he
29:26
Speaker 1: might expect, as you write, say exactly yes, because he's
29:28
Speaker 1: clearly a danger to children.
29:31
Speaker 7: Right.
29:31
Speaker 1: They then went to the arts Whishper Canterbury, who reviewed
29:35
Speaker 1: the case personally and said that everything was fine.
29:38
Speaker 2: This is the man who had to tell the exach
29:41
Speaker 2: Old Abuse Inquiry that as far as the Church of
29:43
Speaker 2: England was concerned, he had to admit that everything was
29:50
Speaker 2: not fine with the Church of England right with regard
29:52
Speaker 2: to the protection of children.
29:53
Speaker 1: And he's no longer in that job, and he's no
29:55
Speaker 1: longer in that as a direct consequence, he was in
29:58
Speaker 1: judgment to this man exactly it was yes. And then
30:02
Speaker 1: this also interestingly links us right into the top levels
30:05
Speaker 1: of the British aristocracy because Peregrine Cavendish, the twelfth Duke
30:10
Speaker 1: of Devonshire, seeing here, has stood him for well. I've
30:13
Speaker 1: placed him in front of Chatsworth House. He's president of
30:19
Speaker 1: Trent College and the Duke of Devonshire one of the
30:22
Speaker 1: most senior ariscrats in the hierarchy in the UK. He was,
30:29
Speaker 1: amongst many other things, the Queen's representative at Ascot, which
30:34
Speaker 1: I think makes him about as high as you can
30:35
Speaker 1: get if you understand the Royals relationship horses exactly yes,
30:40
Speaker 1: which shows that this ideology is possessed the entire apparatus
30:44
Speaker 1: of the British State, the clergy, and absolutely everything else.
30:48
Speaker 1: In the meantime, all of this has been going on,
30:50
Speaker 1: because it's been rumbling for seven years now, a number
30:53
Speaker 1: of things have happened to the charity Educate and Celebrate,
30:56
Speaker 1: interestingly relating to a number of their patrons. This individual,
31:01
Speaker 1: Jordan Gray, a supposed comedian who was a patron, decided
31:07
Speaker 1: to strip naked on live televisions. This was on Channel
31:09
Speaker 1: four one Friday evening on some talent show. Decided to
31:13
Speaker 1: strip naked and expose himself to the public. Extraordinary behavior.
31:20
Speaker 1: Also this chap. Stephen Ireland was sentenced to twenty four
31:26
Speaker 1: years in prison with a further six years on extended
31:29
Speaker 1: license in June twenty twenty five after he was convicted
31:34
Speaker 1: of multiple serious child sex offenses, including the rape of
31:37
Speaker 1: a twelve year old boy, sexual assault, and possession of
31:39
Speaker 1: indecent images of children. He was a patron of that
31:42
Speaker 1: charity and as a consequence of those two things happening,
31:46
Speaker 1: and probably a few other things that haven't made the headlines.
31:48
Speaker 1: The charity was dissolved by the Charity Commission back in
31:55
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, and which is just an ordinary embarrassment
32:01
Speaker 1: for all concerned. Should should be Yeah, all the people
32:05
Speaker 1: that we've named up to this point, the staff, the
32:09
Speaker 1: trustees of the school, pupils. If I was a parent,
32:12
Speaker 1: you're asking very serious questions about the faculty. And luckily
32:16
Speaker 1: there is a good news story to end this, which
32:21
Speaker 1: is that after seven years, Bernard Randall has finally been
32:26
Speaker 1: reinstated to his position as chaplain of Trent College. So
32:31
Speaker 1: somehow sanity has prevailed finally in this instance. I'm hoping
32:37
Speaker 1: in thinking and going to say that I think that
32:40
Speaker 1: this is a turning point potentially, and actually we're heading
32:43
Speaker 1: back in the other direction now. It also.
32:48
Speaker 2: Shows us that when an individual does not give up,
32:51
Speaker 2: they are going to fight, and they're going to continue
32:54
Speaker 2: to fight for what is right, the truth, justice, morality.
33:00
Speaker 2: Things can change, and there are so many people who
33:03
Speaker 2: will want one individual politician maybe there's going to be
33:07
Speaker 2: the savior. No, it requires a great many people to fight.
33:12
Speaker 2: Seven years and beyond as this man has.
33:14
Speaker 1: Done absolutely and I so we hope in the not
33:18
Speaker 1: too distant future to have Bernard on for an interview
33:21
Speaker 1: and we can get more of his side of the story.
33:23
Speaker 2: It'll be excellent.
33:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, so right. If you enjoy what we do and
33:29
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Speaker 1: and grab one. Don't believe it too late though, Yeah,
35:01
Speaker 1: don't leave it. Once they're gone. They're gone as they
35:03
Speaker 1: say so. Later on tonight, Mike and Jim, we'll be
35:08
Speaker 1: talking about the history of UK column. That's from nine pm.
35:12
Speaker 1: Sorry that it should be from seven pm. Ologies is
35:15
Speaker 1: a mistake there on the slide. In nine pm we
35:18
Speaker 1: have Silk and Steel, which could be Carl's are talking
35:20
Speaker 1: about China Step tech stack from six G to nuclear subs.
35:25
Speaker 1: Can find out about what the Chinese have been up
35:27
Speaker 1: to in the technology race. And then Brian, you've got
35:30
Speaker 1: a couple of interviews coming up this week.
35:32
Speaker 2: Yes, So tomorrow at one o'clock we've got part one
35:36
Speaker 2: of unmasking the War in Ukraine. This is with Deep
35:39
Speaker 2: Tea and analysts with units now Deep Tears joined the
35:43
Speaker 2: UK call them on a couple of previous occasions. Very
35:47
Speaker 2: very interesting and well informed lady, very brave. She's been
35:51
Speaker 2: spending time in Ukraine that has now brought her in
35:54
Speaker 2: conflict with uk in dilligence. She's recently been arrested and interrogated.
36:04
Speaker 2: She's released, but she's restricted to sleeping at her home
36:08
Speaker 2: or because she's been part of an international initiative to
36:12
Speaker 2: try and bring peace to Ukraine by telling the truth
36:16
Speaker 2: about the origins of the war and what's really going on.
36:19
Speaker 2: So tomorrow at one o'clock is part one, and we
36:23
Speaker 2: just move on Thursday at one o'clock we'll have the
36:27
Speaker 2: follow up part which is part two and Deep Tea
36:32
Speaker 2: covering some really incredible material. Now say this lady has
36:37
Speaker 2: put herself at risk because she's now absolutely in the
36:41
Speaker 2: intelligence and security spotlight of the United Kingdom. But a
36:46
Speaker 2: lot of this is if you dare challenge the government's
36:49
Speaker 2: narrative here in UK in twenty twenty six, you become
36:53
Speaker 2: a terrorist or you're working for the Russians or the Chinese.
36:57
Speaker 2: So that word Starzi and whittickumb was prepared to use
37:02
Speaker 2: absolutely on the button. But please join me tomorrow at
37:05
Speaker 2: one o'clock for part one of the interview.
37:08
Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to it. Okay, jury trials under attack
37:13
Speaker 1: when you got.
37:14
Speaker 2: Well, I've got that a number of people have really
37:17
Speaker 2: picked up on the importance of jury trials and Defend
37:22
Speaker 2: our Juries is an organization which is out there. It's
37:25
Speaker 2: attracted a lot of people, and I'm going to say
37:28
Speaker 2: it has been doing some really good work. But some
37:31
Speaker 2: people are saying, well, it's doing some good work with
37:34
Speaker 2: one hand, but with the other hand, we're not entirely
37:37
Speaker 2: sure what's going on because there's some links via individuals
37:42
Speaker 2: to for example, Stop the Oil and that was one
37:45
Speaker 2: of the organizations that originally many people were saying was
37:48
Speaker 2: a construct in order to help drive a political debate
37:53
Speaker 2: around about oil and oil fuels. So we're going to
38:03
Speaker 2: take our report down the middle and say we think
38:06
Speaker 2: this organization is doing some good work. Now, I was
38:09
Speaker 2: sent an email to say that on Friday, a number
38:12
Speaker 2: of individuals connected with Defend our Juries and their protests
38:17
Speaker 2: in support of Palestine had been arrested. I was given
38:22
Speaker 2: a pointer through to this YouTube site, Saving Lives is
38:26
Speaker 2: Not Terrorism, where there are five YouTube videos listed, but
38:30
Speaker 2: there's a little warning a caveat which says replicating these
38:34
Speaker 2: videos comes with a risk that you may put yourself
38:39
Speaker 2: effectively under surveillance by UK terrorist police. So I will
38:46
Speaker 2: put a link through to this thing. As far as
38:49
Speaker 2: I can see, watching these clips is not a problem. However,
38:53
Speaker 2: this is the state of the country that if you
38:56
Speaker 2: are talking about what's going on in courts, you're talking
38:59
Speaker 2: about the destruct and slaughter of individuals in overseas country,
39:04
Speaker 2: you are going to put yourself in conflict with both
39:06
Speaker 2: the police and, as we've heard with deep te the
39:09
Speaker 2: security services. So I'm just highlighting to the audience that
39:14
Speaker 2: this organization is there, there are some very good people
39:17
Speaker 2: associated with it. They're working very hard, and on July
39:21
Speaker 2: the thirtieth, at Westminster Magistrates Court at twelve pm they're
39:26
Speaker 2: actually holding a rally and they're inviting people who come
39:30
Speaker 2: to wear something that's read and the key statement is
39:34
Speaker 2: that Saving Lives is not terrorism.
39:36
Speaker 10: Now.
39:37
Speaker 2: The interesting thing is a lot of this hangs around
39:39
Speaker 2: the power of the jury in UK and I'm very
39:43
Speaker 2: glad that we have William Keat with us today because William,
39:47
Speaker 2: you've been investigating, analyzing, researching both common law and natural
39:53
Speaker 2: law for some time and you're one of the people
39:55
Speaker 2: who've spoken out for a great many years about the
39:59
Speaker 2: power of the jury in the United Kingdom and of
40:03
Speaker 2: course the reason why we absolutely have to keep it.
40:07
Speaker 2: So William, welcome to UK column News.
40:12
Speaker 11: Thank you very much, Brian, Thank you, Ben. It's good
40:15
Speaker 11: to be on.
40:17
Speaker 1: Jess.
40:18
Speaker 11: You are absolutely right about yeah, the importance of the jury,
40:22
Speaker 11: absolutely and I would agree with your sentiment about need
40:27
Speaker 11: to tread carefully with defend our juries a little bit.
40:30
Speaker 11: They seem to be doing some good things onto the surface,
40:32
Speaker 11: but that they're kind of carrying the jury principles and
40:37
Speaker 11: then tying it up and associating it with some very
40:41
Speaker 11: sort of direct action issues, some very political, some would
40:46
Speaker 11: say extreme political issues on one side, and I think
40:50
Speaker 11: we have to be to watch that very carefully. I've
40:52
Speaker 11: reached out to them in the past a couple of times.
40:53
Speaker 11: I've never had a reply.
40:55
Speaker 2: All right to go and This is a very important
40:58
Speaker 2: point because we have also said this about reform and
41:02
Speaker 2: restore that if you follow the leadership line, there are
41:09
Speaker 2: some questions to be asked, but many many good people
41:12
Speaker 2: involved with the parties, members of the party's activists, who
41:16
Speaker 2: are seeing the bigger picture and are getting out to
41:19
Speaker 2: do some good things. So I think we're just echo
41:22
Speaker 2: whatever organization you get involved with. Don't just go with
41:27
Speaker 2: the flow. Keep an eye on what the real policies
41:30
Speaker 2: are and objectives, because the truth's got to be told
41:33
Speaker 2: in a very measured and constructive way if the other
41:37
Speaker 2: side is not to use it as a battering ram
41:40
Speaker 2: against anybody challenging the state. William, so the flaws yours
41:46
Speaker 2: for a few minutes. Tell us what you've been looking
41:48
Speaker 2: at and what you think the UK column audience should
41:52
Speaker 2: be paying attention to with respect to juries and indeed
41:56
Speaker 2: matters to do with the constitution.
42:00
Speaker 11: Thank you very much. Well, yes, there are some always
42:03
Speaker 11: interesting things going on in the world of the constitution
42:05
Speaker 11: and trial by jury, not least at the moment. And
42:09
Speaker 11: at the moment what's particularly interesting is that we're seeing
42:13
Speaker 11: some interesting cases coming up at the moment that have
42:16
Speaker 11: some common elements and in particular, what's fascinating about them
42:21
Speaker 11: is that the fundamental sort of constitutional distortions, if you like,
42:25
Speaker 11: are sort of becoming exposed within them. There's a kind
42:30
Speaker 11: of sort of incoherent logic that we're starting to see
42:34
Speaker 11: coming through. And I'll get into that, but it's really
42:38
Speaker 11: as a result of a kind of faulty belief which
42:42
Speaker 11: sits sort of underneath our current justice system, our current
42:47
Speaker 11: rule of law. There are distortions in there. So within
42:51
Speaker 11: these cases we're sort of seeing sort of massive contradictions
42:55
Speaker 11: coming up to the surface, circular arguments. It's kind of
42:58
Speaker 11: Mad Hatter's tea party stuff going on, and you'll see
43:01
Speaker 11: that as we get into it. And if people would
43:05
Speaker 11: like to see that in a lot more detail, I
43:08
Speaker 11: would recommend people go and have a read of the
43:11
Speaker 11: judgment the Webster case, in particular paragraph fifty five. Just
43:18
Speaker 11: have a look at that if you're particularly interested. But
43:20
Speaker 11: the cases in question are you've talked about it already,
43:23
Speaker 11: I think on the show the Filton four case, which
43:27
Speaker 11: is very interesting. Most importantly at the moment, what's happening
43:30
Speaker 11: is that we're seeing that the lead defense Council regif
43:34
Speaker 11: men on casey is facing contempt of court proceedings supposedly
43:40
Speaker 11: for misleading the jury, and of course talking about jury equity,
43:45
Speaker 11: which is the term that we seem to be having
43:48
Speaker 11: to use now, jury equity. I'd rather use the term
43:51
Speaker 11: jury independence, but there we are.
43:54
Speaker 1: Now.
43:54
Speaker 11: The other case that's a little bit less known is
43:57
Speaker 11: the case of Dale Vincent quite recently. He's a military man.
44:03
Speaker 11: He formed a group in twenty twenty two which included
44:07
Speaker 11: Mark Sexton, and briefly they went in to close a
44:13
Speaker 11: or try to close a vaccine facility in Bristol. And
44:17
Speaker 11: in the end, when the police were not doing anything
44:21
Speaker 11: to prevent a greater crime as they saw it, including
44:27
Speaker 11: the evidence from sort of video statements from ass Malhotra
44:32
Speaker 11: and others, Dale decided to make a citizen's arrest on
44:36
Speaker 11: one of the police officers. It's all on video, actually
44:40
Speaker 11: it can be found. And Dale was then charged with
44:44
Speaker 11: assault of an emergency worker. So it's quite interesting that
44:50
Speaker 11: these cases that are coming up seem to have a
44:52
Speaker 11: sort of a common element to them in which we're
44:56
Speaker 11: seeing a kind of restriction of the jury to see
44:59
Speaker 11: defense evidence along with a restriction in some way of
45:04
Speaker 11: the jury organically using their conscience in some way. These
45:09
Speaker 11: are the kinds of things that are coming to the surface.
45:12
Speaker 11: And what's interesting about this is that that within the establishment,
45:17
Speaker 11: within the world of MPs and lawyers. We've certainly seen
45:21
Speaker 11: this over the last winter and early spring when the
45:25
Speaker 11: Levison issue was still very much on the table, and
45:29
Speaker 11: we saw this in social media, massive sort of support
45:33
Speaker 11: and in defense of trial by jury by lawyers and
45:38
Speaker 11: MPs alike, talking about how that it is the bulwark
45:42
Speaker 11: the constitutional principle, that is the protection of the people,
45:47
Speaker 11: it's the cornerstone. And yet at the same time, when
45:50
Speaker 11: they go into court, lawyers are routinely witnessing judges effectively
45:55
Speaker 11: lying by a mission to the general public to the
45:57
Speaker 11: jury about the principle of jury independence. So we decided
46:03
Speaker 11: decided to put together a meme which kind of encapsulated
46:08
Speaker 11: some of these kind of contradictions, these circular arguments, and
46:12
Speaker 11: there's a slide which you can you can buy all
46:15
Speaker 11: means put up and what it what it basically says
46:18
Speaker 11: is are you telling me that a judge cannot lawfully
46:22
Speaker 11: do A, which is that which is on the on
46:25
Speaker 11: the left hand side, but he may do B. And
46:29
Speaker 11: what's what we're in factively saying, is that all of
46:32
Speaker 11: B amounts to the same thing as A. And what
46:35
Speaker 11: A is, of course, is the judge cannot direct a
46:38
Speaker 11: jury to convict, which they recognize, they admit. But if
46:43
Speaker 11: we examine what B says, and we'll just very quickly
46:46
Speaker 11: go through them, and you'll sort of see where this
46:48
Speaker 11: is going in the language behind it. So a judge
46:51
Speaker 11: apparently can one remove the defendant's defense from consideration by
46:56
Speaker 11: the jury. Difficulty with that, of course, is that you're
46:59
Speaker 11: then not getting to me, which is the state of mind.
47:03
Speaker 11: That's an important point to understand. The second point there
47:06
Speaker 11: is the judge can give legal directions to the jury that,
47:09
Speaker 11: if followed, can only lead to a guilty verdict. The
47:13
Speaker 11: third point really have a listen to this one. The
47:17
Speaker 11: judge can preclude the jury from knowing that the judge
47:21
Speaker 11: cannot direct them to convict. So, in otherwords, the judge
47:25
Speaker 11: doesn't want jury to know that he can't direct them
47:28
Speaker 11: to convict. So why would that be then, I wonder
47:31
Speaker 11: zo point four, the judge can tell the jury that
47:36
Speaker 11: they must follow his directions on the law. And the
47:39
Speaker 11: last one, number five, the judge can prevent the jury
47:42
Speaker 11: from knowing their right to judge according to their convictions.
47:45
Speaker 11: So we said at the bossom, we said, actually I
47:51
Speaker 11: can't find it where am I?
47:52
Speaker 6: Oh? Yes?
47:53
Speaker 11: So don't you think that men on the Clapham omnibus
47:55
Speaker 11: would struggle to see the difference? Yeah, it's essentially amounts
47:59
Speaker 11: to the same thing. So what you're seeing here is
48:02
Speaker 11: just massive contradictions in what they're claiming. On the one hand,
48:06
Speaker 11: they're saying, yes, there's a kind of an organic nature
48:09
Speaker 11: to justice which is built on the common law, on
48:13
Speaker 11: the idea that jury independence is the key. But then
48:17
Speaker 11: on the other hand, we're going to sort of direct everything.
48:19
Speaker 11: We're going to put an impose a framework over it.
48:23
Speaker 11: And it's worth pointing out this best and illustrating it
48:26
Speaker 11: by just quoting Lysander Spooner here. So if you put
48:30
Speaker 11: on the next slide there, but for their right to
48:34
Speaker 11: judge of the law and the justice of the law,
48:36
Speaker 11: juries would be no protection to an accused person, even
48:40
Speaker 11: as to matters of fact. For if the government can
48:44
Speaker 11: dictate to a jury any law whatever in a criminal case,
48:47
Speaker 11: it can certainly dictate to them the laws of evidence.
48:50
Speaker 11: That is, it can dictate what evidence is admissible, and
48:54
Speaker 11: what inadmissible, and also what force or weight is to
48:58
Speaker 11: be given to the evidence admitted. If the government can
49:01
Speaker 11: thus dictate to a jury the laws of evidence, it
49:03
Speaker 11: can not only make it necessary for them to convict
49:06
Speaker 11: on a partial exhibition of the evidence rightfully pertaining to
49:09
Speaker 11: the case, but it can even require them to convict
49:12
Speaker 11: on any evidence whatever that it pleases to offer them.
49:17
Speaker 11: Lysanders Spooner, in his essay eighteen written in eighteen fifty two,
49:21
Speaker 11: read it really important essay William William.
49:26
Speaker 1: I'm sorry.
49:27
Speaker 2: I'll just come back in very briefly if I may,
49:29
Speaker 2: and say it is incredible, isn't it. When we look
49:32
Speaker 2: at texts written many years ago, there's sort of a
49:37
Speaker 2: peaceful accuracy against them. They use a language which is
49:42
Speaker 2: very specific, and to me, that paragraph absolutely captures the
49:48
Speaker 2: problem that we are facing today.
49:50
Speaker 1: Absolutely, just to jump in there will be for clarity
49:56
Speaker 1: on your extremely high brown meme. Just put off a
50:00
Speaker 1: screen again quickly. That is designed for lawyers. Very much, Yes,
50:04
Speaker 1: very clearly. It's a very very high end. Sorry, audience.
50:09
Speaker 1: The things on the right amount to the things on
50:12
Speaker 1: the left. But the judges aren't allowed to do the
50:14
Speaker 1: thing on the left, but they are doing the things
50:16
Speaker 1: on the right essentially what you're saying, Right, that's exactly it,
50:19
Speaker 1: exactly so they're not allowed to dive directly direct the
50:22
Speaker 1: jury to convict, but they're doing everything anyway.
50:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly William. Can I just also add that
50:33
Speaker 2: in our chatbots there's a little bit of commentary about
50:35
Speaker 2: the expression the man on the clap and omnibus. I
50:39
Speaker 2: just want to stress that this is this is an
50:41
Speaker 2: expression used at law to describe an ordinary man or
50:46
Speaker 2: woman going about their peaceful life. There's nothing demeaning about it.
50:52
Speaker 2: It's simply a historic expression which represents the ordinary man
50:57
Speaker 2: and woman.
50:59
Speaker 11: That's exactly right.
51:00
Speaker 1: Yes, should have said that.
51:01
Speaker 11: Yes, that's the test, if you like, is what what
51:04
Speaker 11: the ordinary man think? And the man on the clap
51:06
Speaker 11: and omnivous is often used as the thing that yes,
51:10
Speaker 11: so you're seeing these extraordinary contradictions, and of course we
51:14
Speaker 11: need to remind ourselves that, you know, Magna Carta didn't
51:17
Speaker 11: it didn't say, you know, no man shall lose his
51:19
Speaker 11: liberty and I'm paraphrasing here his estate, his livelihood, accept
51:22
Speaker 11: by the judgment of his peers dot dot dot, specifically
51:26
Speaker 11: on the facts only and not the law or only
51:29
Speaker 11: if if, if the judge directs you to do so.
51:31
Speaker 11: It's it's this is the problem is that we've got
51:33
Speaker 11: contrivances at play. We've got this this this sort of
51:36
Speaker 11: impulse to control, to place a kind of a uniformity
51:42
Speaker 11: over the top of justice, not to have it too organic. Please,
51:46
Speaker 11: you know, let's not go there. So it'd be worth
51:49
Speaker 11: just just reading out the next slide, which is Jeffrey
51:53
Speaker 11: Rivlin case I think that one. Yes, you've got that
51:57
Speaker 11: one there, so just pull that one on. So this
51:59
Speaker 11: is Jeffrey Rivlin quoting Lord Bingham. Particularly important this one,
52:07
Speaker 11: so have a listen to this.
52:09
Speaker 1: Sorry.
52:10
Speaker 11: Lord Bingham insisted that the right of the jury to
52:12
Speaker 11: return the verdict it collectively believes is the true one
52:16
Speaker 11: must be inalienable, even if the verdict might appear perverse
52:21
Speaker 11: or contrary to what an experience judge or lawyer thinks.
52:25
Speaker 11: I have no doubt that when new legislation is being
52:29
Speaker 11: considered by Parliament or decisions are taken by prosecutors, the
52:33
Speaker 11: inescapable sobering thought hovering in the minds of each is
52:38
Speaker 11: or should be could we and this is key listen
52:42
Speaker 11: to this. This is the twist, okay, the logical twist.
52:45
Speaker 11: Could we ever get this past jury? We should realize
52:50
Speaker 11: that under the new proposals, if a government wishes to
52:53
Speaker 11: whittle away at our freedoms, it only has to ensure
52:58
Speaker 11: that the maximum sentence for any transgression will be one
53:01
Speaker 11: of three years. So what we're we're HARKing back to
53:05
Speaker 11: there is the proposals in the Levison Review and the
53:10
Speaker 11: further curtailing of trial by jury, which of course they
53:13
Speaker 11: imagine and believe they absolutely can do. Why do they
53:16
Speaker 11: believe that, because they believe that they have the right
53:19
Speaker 11: to categorize offenses. So they're bringing about these kinds of conditions.
53:25
Speaker 11: These are driving certain specific procedures, categories, and imposing a
53:32
Speaker 11: kind of matrix over the top of what is really
53:35
Speaker 11: a an organic justice process. It's a circular argument, of course,
53:39
Speaker 11: because trial by jury is the check on legislation. But
53:43
Speaker 11: they want to use legislation itself to remove that check
53:48
Speaker 11: on legislation. Right, this is the kind of circular argument
53:51
Speaker 11: stuff that's going on. If we've got time one more slide,
53:56
Speaker 11: perhaps it'd be worth just quoting Lord Bingham here and
54:01
Speaker 11: here he is that the last word should rest with
54:03
Speaker 11: the jury remains, as Sir Patrick Devlin writing in nineteen
54:06
Speaker 11: fifty six in the Hamlin Lectures, here it is an
54:09
Speaker 11: insurance that the criminal law will conform to the ordinary
54:12
Speaker 11: man's idea of what is fair, and just if it
54:15
Speaker 11: does not, the jury will not be a party to
54:18
Speaker 11: its enforcement. The executive knows that in dealing with the
54:22
Speaker 11: liberty of the subject, it must not do anything which
54:25
Speaker 11: would seriously disturb the conscience of the average member of parliament.
54:29
Speaker 11: Or don't mind so much about the average member of parliament,
54:33
Speaker 11: but I do mind about the average juryman.
54:36
Speaker 1: Is what he says.
54:37
Speaker 11: I know of no other real checks that exist today
54:40
Speaker 11: upon the power of the executive. Lord Bingham quoting Sir
54:43
Speaker 11: Patrick Devlin, So why has this happened? Yeah, and just
54:47
Speaker 11: very quickly to finish off, is that why are we
54:50
Speaker 11: getting these sort of imposed restrictions, these kind of procedures
54:54
Speaker 11: to kind of unify everything. Well, because there is an
54:57
Speaker 11: impulse generally to take that's not necessarily coming from a
55:02
Speaker 11: bad place always. I'm sure that there will be some
55:05
Speaker 11: that are doing that, but there is a tendency within
55:08
Speaker 11: man generally, and we're getting into the human psyche which
55:10
Speaker 11: is some of the things that I tend to deal with,
55:12
Speaker 11: which is that we need to guard against things, and
55:15
Speaker 11: in doing that, what we're going to need to do
55:17
Speaker 11: is to regulate something. So a couple of examples very
55:21
Speaker 11: quickly of how these things come about would be, first
55:26
Speaker 11: of all, issues around sort of eyewitness testimony, for example,
55:30
Speaker 11: can be very persuasive and yet simultaneously notoriously unreliable. So
55:35
Speaker 11: do we want the jury to see that?
55:37
Speaker 1: Yeah.
55:38
Speaker 11: We also have the issue of previous convictions, which the
55:42
Speaker 11: justice system has understood to be a tricky conundrum, a
55:46
Speaker 11: dangerous thing. Do we want the juries to see that
55:48
Speaker 11: because it colors their perception?
55:49
Speaker 7: Yeah?
55:50
Speaker 11: So there are understandable reasons why these things come about. Yeah,
55:53
Speaker 11: it's not that they're all out to get us, quite
55:56
Speaker 11: and I'm sure that some might be behind the scenes
55:59
Speaker 11: and a sort of cap on this, but generally speaking,
56:02
Speaker 11: this is the kind of the dangerous impulse is to
56:06
Speaker 11: place kind of algorithms over it, to slice and dice
56:10
Speaker 11: everything into kind of convenient boxes algorithmise, if that's a word,
56:15
Speaker 11: you know, turn everything into into kind of algorithms and
56:18
Speaker 11: things like that.
56:18
Speaker 1: And I know that you're going to get onto that subject.
56:20
Speaker 11: So the real problem really lies in the fact that,
56:22
Speaker 11: as Magna Carta said, if you don't adhere to these
56:24
Speaker 11: principles entirely and absolutely, then effectively what you're doing is
56:30
Speaker 11: you're saying to government, Okay, how much trial by jury
56:33
Speaker 11: can we actually have government? It's a principle, but you're
56:36
Speaker 11: going to decide how much when we can have it
56:39
Speaker 11: and when we can use our conscience. And that's the
56:42
Speaker 11: problem where we're going. And I think we're heading fast
56:44
Speaker 11: at the moment towards maybe a binding precedent because of
56:47
Speaker 11: the pressure that's building over this kind of stuff.
56:49
Speaker 1: So there we are. That's what's going on now.
56:52
Speaker 2: William, thank you very much for really excellent summary. I'm
56:56
Speaker 2: very pleased say that you will be joining us for
57:00
Speaker 2: UK Column Extra today, so UK Column members will be
57:03
Speaker 2: able to hear us have at least another thirty minutes
57:06
Speaker 2: of discussion around this really really vital issue. The state
57:11
Speaker 2: is closing in on freedoms. There is no question of
57:15
Speaker 2: this happening. Many people sense it, even if they don't
57:17
Speaker 2: really understand how it's being done. They understand that the
57:22
Speaker 2: state in the United Kingdom is becoming ever more oppressive.
57:26
Speaker 2: And if we lose the protection of jury trial, then
57:29
Speaker 2: of course the state can do entirely as it pleases,
57:33
Speaker 2: particularly perhaps and if we say that a malicious AI
57:37
Speaker 2: system will be part of that judicial process.
57:40
Speaker 1: Well quite Brian. Yeah, that's well, thank you for that.
57:44
Speaker 1: That was fantastic And if the chat box will have
57:47
Speaker 1: its way, we'll be doing another interview with you because
57:50
Speaker 1: the feedback was really good all the way through there.
57:53
Speaker 1: And you mentioned algorithms, which is something you and I
57:56
Speaker 1: have spoken about previously, and we will just very brief
58:00
Speaker 1: fully touch on this post which appeared on exover the weekend,
58:03
Speaker 1: which I just thought was fascinating, which is from Dean Ball,
58:09
Speaker 1: who is the head of strategic Futures at open Ai,
58:13
Speaker 1: one of the leading AI companies at least partially ownly
58:18
Speaker 1: controlled by Microsoft, where he says there comes a time
58:21
Speaker 1: in every AI policy professional's life when they realize they
58:26
Speaker 1: have to read the Talmud to make further progress, and
58:29
Speaker 1: for me that time was this week. The Talmud is
58:32
Speaker 1: one of the most important books in Judaism and.
58:39
Speaker 2: Also referenced by Lord Levison and his recent review of
58:45
Speaker 2: jury trials in UK. Indeed, cover he had a quote
58:49
Speaker 2: from the Talmud. There wasn't any equivalent Christian quote or
58:53
Speaker 2: quote from the Quran, simply from the Talmut, So draw
58:57
Speaker 2: whatever conclusions from that you like.
59:00
Speaker 1: Yes, this seems to be the same powers that at
59:03
Speaker 1: play evolving and changing the legal system as there are
59:09
Speaker 1: building the digital infrastructure that we're being told is needed
59:13
Speaker 1: to run our entire society. So I found this quote
59:17
Speaker 1: fascinating and that deserves some much deeper expiration which we
59:21
Speaker 1: won't be able to get into right now. One of
59:24
Speaker 1: the comments for the first comment that came up with
59:26
Speaker 1: from this chat, who I've spoken about previously. This is
59:29
Speaker 1: Alexander iya Sad, who's a director at Tony Blair's Institute,
59:33
Speaker 1: and he's the man running the digital identity program for
59:36
Speaker 1: Tony Blair, which basically means he's running it for the
59:39
Speaker 1: UK as well. And he's saying that he's tapping he's
59:41
Speaker 1: already well worn. Llm's our spiritually Jewish sign So the
59:45
Speaker 1: large language models that the AI systems are built on,
59:50
Speaker 1: apparently its spiritually Jewish and you need to read the
59:52
Speaker 1: talent in order to understand them. That's quite an amazing
59:56
Speaker 1: set of revelations, don't you think.
59:58
Speaker 2: I would say been Apart from from anything else, this
1:00:01
Speaker 2: should be a huge wake up call to anybody who
1:00:04
Speaker 2: considers themselves Christian in the United Kingdom in twenty twenty six,
1:00:08
Speaker 2: because something rather special is unfolding year.
1:00:11
Speaker 1: That's certainly true. Yeah, and it's not just these two
1:00:15
Speaker 1: posts that I just happened to come across. This is
1:00:17
Speaker 1: a consistent theme, not at least because both of these
1:00:20
Speaker 1: guys that I've mentioned already are extremely senior inside the
1:00:24
Speaker 1: technology and consulting hierarchy globally, not just here in the UK,
1:00:29
Speaker 1: its international. But this is a theme that is emerging.
1:00:33
Speaker 1: This post came from a forward where they're saying that
1:00:36
Speaker 1: we're losing control of AI's Judaism, the key to keeping
1:00:40
Speaker 1: it from killing us. So we've created this extraordinarily complex
1:00:44
Speaker 1: and dangerous thing. Most of the people who actually created
1:00:46
Speaker 1: it are Jewish, and now we need Jewish belief system
1:00:49
Speaker 1: in order to control it.
1:00:50
Speaker 2: And some of those people who've helped created, of course
1:00:53
Speaker 2: deeply worried about what they have created.
1:00:56
Speaker 1: Yes, indeed, yes, now we do have a video. We
1:01:00
Speaker 1: don't have time to show it, but we will show
1:01:01
Speaker 1: that in extra But I will just close this section
1:01:05
Speaker 1: by talking about this post and again we'll provide links
1:01:08
Speaker 1: to these in the show notes. I highly recommending and
1:01:11
Speaker 1: encourage you to go and read these because I think
1:01:13
Speaker 1: it gives you very clear indication of what's actually going
1:01:15
Speaker 1: on with these new technologies. This from a couple of
1:01:17
Speaker 1: years ago now saying, and this is on the Chabad
1:01:21
Speaker 1: website Chabad dot org, which bad one of the largest
1:01:24
Speaker 1: Rabbinical Jewish organization globally, saying is Ai the new Tower
1:01:28
Speaker 1: of Babbel? So actually they do. They view and the
1:01:32
Speaker 1: people building these technologies understand it as a way to
1:01:36
Speaker 1: essentially engage in a battle with God, because that's what
1:01:39
Speaker 1: the people who built the Tower of Babel were up to.
1:01:41
Speaker 1: They thought they could become gods themselves.
1:01:46
Speaker 2: We need to get inside the minds of some of
1:01:48
Speaker 2: these people, and that's a very difficult thing to do,
1:01:51
Speaker 2: but clues are emerging.
1:01:53
Speaker 1: They certainly are much much more to come on that
1:01:55
Speaker 1: in future editions. Now I'm just skipping through a few
1:01:59
Speaker 1: things here because we have run out of time. But
1:02:01
Speaker 1: I just want to close the show today with this
1:02:04
Speaker 1: little video clip I took on the weekend and about
1:02:07
Speaker 1: around Devon loving life. And then if you can see
1:02:10
Speaker 1: here this is some wonderful Devon. Heather not heather lavender
1:02:15
Speaker 1: smelt incredible and it's just absolutely swarming with bees.
1:02:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, and your point is a lot of people are
1:02:22
Speaker 2: saying that the population under great pressure, which is but
1:02:26
Speaker 2: we would just like to say, particularly in the beautiful
1:02:28
Speaker 2: weather that we've had down in Devon over the last
1:02:32
Speaker 2: few weeks at least, there's been a lot of bees
1:02:36
Speaker 2: out and also butterflies, so there is some good news
1:02:40
Speaker 2: to report.
1:02:40
Speaker 1: There is certainly some good news to report. That's all
1:02:44
Speaker 1: we have time for today. Thank you so much to
1:02:46
Speaker 1: everyone tuned in at home, watching live or indeed watching
1:02:50
Speaker 1: the recording back however you might be joining us. Brian,
1:02:54
Speaker 1: it's been a pleasure. Thanks for thanks for having me well,
1:03:00
Speaker 1: there's no answer to that, and massive thanks to Will
1:03:04
Speaker 1: Keith Don't forget Tonight at seven o'clock German Mike talking
1:03:07
Speaker 1: about the history of UK Colum nine o'clock Carl Zur
1:03:11
Speaker 1: Brian's Ditty interview at one pm tomorrow, and of course
1:03:14
Speaker 1: Mike will be back with the team for the News
1:03:17
Speaker 1: at one pm on Wednesday. Until then, thanks for watching,
1:03:20
Speaker 1: Bye bye, bye bye.