Latest / Wits & Weights | Strength & Fat Loss Over 40 / Ep 80: Flexible Dieting, Evidence-Based Nutrition, and Protein Strategies with Alan Aragon

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Ep 80: Flexible Dieting, Evidence-Based Nutrition, and Protein Strategies with Alan Aragon · Wits & Weights | Strength & Fat Loss Over 40

• 0:00
  Alan Aragon: If nothing else, flexible dieting is a way to individualize the dietary variables to suit the individual's personal preference, personal tolerances and and goals.
• 0:14
  Philip Pape: Welcome to the Wits& Weights podcast. I'm your host Philip Pape. In this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits& Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today we're diving into flexible dieting and evidence based fitness with nutrition researcher and educator Alan Aragon, you'll learn about the importance of evidence based practice for the average person looking to improve their health, rigid versus flexible dietary control and the practical side of nutrition such as protein sources and distribution strategies and anabolic resistance. We'll tackle common challenges people face related to behavior change and tracking food, as well as nonlinear dieting, such as intermittent fasting. Finally, we'll touch on the latest findings and research gaps in nutrition and fitness.
• 1:16
  Philip Pape: Alan Aragon is a nutrition researcher and educator with over 30 years of success in the field. He is one of the most influential figures in the fitness industries movement toward evidence based information. Alan also writes a monthly research review with cutting edge theoretical practical information. His work has been published everywhere.
• 1:36
  Philip Pape: It's been published in popular magazines in the peer reviewed scientific literature. He co authored nutrient timing revisited the most viewed article in the history of the Journal of the International Society of sports nutrition, and is the lead author of the ISSN position stand on diets and body composition. Alan maintains a private practice designing programs for recreational and professional athletes. And of course, regular people like you and me and him striving to be their best. Finally, Alan is the author of one of my newer favorite books, flexible dieting, a science based reality tested method for achieving and maintaining your optimal physique performance and health.
• 2:15
  Philip Pape: His work has personally impacted the way I look at my relationship with food, my coaching practice and the meaning of evidence based practice, which is why I was thrilled that he accepted my invitation to come on the show.
• 2:27
  Philip Pape: So Alan, welcome to the podcast.
• 2:30
  Alan Aragon: Philip, thank you so much for having me here. It's so great to be here. And it's such a privilege.
• 2:35
  Philip Pape: Yeah, man, you I mean, so you, you are a pioneer of this space. And I've heard you talk about the various stories behind flexible dieting, and If It Fits Your Macros, and the forums and all that, and you've seen this industry go from, from where it was two, three decades ago to where it is now, with social media and everything else. And the fact that health is probably one of the most in demand things that people are trying to work on.
• 2:57
  Philip Pape: You have a lot of great information out there. And then you have a lot of misinformation. What drove you to jump into this field early on? What keeps you going? And then what is your purpose in life now after all of this experience in three decades in the field?
• 3:13
  Alan Aragon: Okay, so what got me in to the field was, I just thought that personal training was a cool thing. You basically you got to have a reason to work out and be fit and be be jacked, or at least try to, and kind of give you a purpose for that. And if you can tie a livelihood to working out, which is something that I really loved in my late teens, early 20s, then it just seemed ideal personal training just seemed ideal. And then once you dive into it, and once you do the work, you see that it's hard work. It's a multifaceted, and frankly, an exhausting job.
• 3:59
  Alan Aragon: And, and I also found out what my strengths were, and what my you know what my limitations were. And it just turns out that I was good at teaching, I was good at communicating. And I was much better at sitting around than I was at actually, you know, doing the physical work of training. And so, but yeah, I did, I did training for a good decade, full time training. And I think that once you hit the 10 year point with something that you enjoy enough, then you want to teach people how to do it.
• 4:36
  Alan Aragon: And so I hit a point where I wanted to be able to teach people how to train. I went into the avenue of nutrition just because I had to pick a major basically, I wasn't a very well pre planned person. Back in the day. I just I really didn't know what to positively and absolutely do with my life like some people do when in their late teens, early 20s, that wasn't me, I was like, hey, you know, I like fitness and there's nothing really out there. Maybe I can be a trainer, but nobody really knows what the heck that is. And but I'm gonna do it anyway, because I enjoy kind of being different. So I went the nutrition path, and then a decade went by, and then I went the research path for another decade. And then at the end of each of these decades, you're like, you know, that would really cool to be really cool to teach people how to accomplish these things. And, and so here I am at the end of three decades.
• 5:41
  Alan Aragon: And what kept me going throughout all of that was just pursuing what interested me. So when personal training, interested me less than nutritional counseling, I pursued nutritional counseling.
• 5:56
  Alan Aragon: And when the research and education aspect of things really interested me, I just pursued that. So I tried to make it a point of making sure that I really love what I'm doing. And I go in the direction of basically following my heart, these, you know, these things.
• 6:19
  Alan Aragon: And so the the final part of your question about looking back on the on the industry, I'm trying to recall exactly how you worded
• 6:30
  Philip Pape: I made a phone call by giving you not only a compound question, it was like three in one. It was just basically what it what drives you today. What is your purpose right now? So you gave us a good 30 year chunked up into three decade story. Yeah, here. So what is it right now?
• 6:46
  Alan Aragon: My purpose right now is to conduct research, and educate. And I don't think you ever leave being a coach, being a trainer or a counselor, I don't think you ever leave that.
• 7:01
  Alan Aragon: I think it's important to have a handful of clients, or for some of the patients, that they help reach their goals. So so when you completely cut that part out of your life, then you cut out the pulse on what works and what works best and how you can sharpen your craft and make it work even better. And so, so right now, the main purposes, is education. And the research aspects of it are integral to the education purpose, because we're continually trying to peel back the layers to get to the heart of what we think we know that there's kind of an unlimited road ahead, as far as that goes. And that's why research just keeps going.
• 7:51
  Philip Pape: And so your your story resonates with me, maybe a lot of people the fact that you just pursued what you enjoyed and kept following, and pivoting. But everything you had done to that point seemed to build on each other. And it's from day one, you had a common theme here of teaching and communicating, which sounds like it's carried through and it's just added to the whole thing.
• 8:11
  Philip Pape: And you and I were talking before even gotten the recording, you know me for coming from the engineering world. I'm now pursuing something else that interested me as well in nutrition, and combining all these skills together, what makes us unique, right, like combining your various 10 year chunks of of pursuits there gets you to where you are today. So actually, let's talk about communication and research. Because in your book, flexible, flexible dieting, the beginning of it.
• 8:40
  Philip Pape: And this was refreshing to me, you didn't just jump into the prescription you you talked about scientific literacy, evidence based practice the hierarchy of evidence. So let's just start there and define what we mean by evidence based practice. Why is it important for the average person who just wants to get healthy and they're like, just tell me what to do.
• 8:58
  Philip Pape: Why is this important?
• 9:01
  Alan Aragon: Well, the best way to understand evidence based practice is to look at the the field of medicine. So we dig back to the ancient times.
• 9:10
  Alan Aragon: There's shamans, there's witchdoctors. There's faith healers, there's all kinds of stuff. And so we really didn't know who to listen to, aside from the person with apparently the most successful patients apparent the person who could most successfully perform his psychic surgeries. And so as the march of history went on, and as humans became enlightened, and as science became a thing, then we started realizing, hey, there's something called the scientific method, where Louis Pasteur actually discovered that there's a microbial basis for disease. It didn't just happen out of thin air. And the way that he figured that out was by setting up experiments controlled experiments to elucidate causal relationships between phenomena. And between agent and effect here. And so the body of research grew in medicine. And we didn't, we no longer needed to seek out the most successful shaman or witch doctor or faith healer, we could refer to the body of literature and see what science has found out. And then what we can do is sort of cross check that with what's working in the field. And so this whole model is transferable to exercise and nutrition. And so what what the fitness world was 1520 years ago was a matter of getting the advice from the most muscular dude in the room, or getting the advice from the one guy who's got a regular stream of clients, or getting advice from the one crack with the best line of supplements, right? So it's very, it's it's a similar transfer, to where the evidence based approach in fitness is taking a look at the research basis of a given claim. Whether it be a claim about a protocol, or a product, or some sort of some sort of phenomenon. And we take a look at the research basis for it. And where there are gray areas, in the research literature, which there are many gray areas, then we can look to field observations, and see where we might be able to fill in the gaps in literature. So the evidence based approach is really kind of a cross check between field observations and the scientific literature. It's not just a matter of anecdote and stories and lore, and history and tradition. And it's also not merely a matter of logging on PubMed finding an abstract and waving around in someone's face that you're arguing with on social media.
• 12:07
  Alan Aragon: Yeah, I think that's important evidence based practices is kind of the
• 12:14
  Philip Pape: known again, I love history, the history of that going from the witch doctors to Louis Pasteur, and causing effect. And now having this as a baseline, and you, you brought up the counter argument that sometimes people make, which is like, well, there's dozens, if not hundreds of studies, and which ones do you rely on? And how can you take something that's done for eight weeks with who knows what level of trained individual and they're doing leg presses, but we care about squats, and on and on and on and on, where we've got, you know, these 10 coaches who've worked with people for 40 years, they know what they're talking about, don't they? But you're saying it's really a combination of all these things, we can validate real world experience with the data, or maybe counter it, which is where the magic sometimes happens is when you get surprised, and then looking to field observation. So what was that? Gonna ask about that? With the, I guess you do the research review, right? So how do you select the studies? Right? So that's the thing is there's an overwhelming number of studies, like if you go to PubMed or something, and just Google it or go to Google Scholar, whatever?
• 13:16
  Philip Pape: How do you select them for your research review so that they're relevant, and they're actionable? In the context of what you were talking about?
• 13:25
  Alan Aragon: Yeah, that question is pretty, surprisingly simple.
• 13:32
  Alan Aragon: If you spend enough time on social media, and you kind of have your eye on what people are talking about, then you get a steady stream of ideas of what people are interested in, what studies are floating across the different media? And what sort of wild claims are being made.
• 13:52
  Alan Aragon: And so with studies floating across social media, you have a steady stream of that to begin with. There's a couple of examples of that. And I can actually relate this, this question with one which you you're probably going to ask, which was why is scientific literacy important? And, you know, how do people gain it and kind of basic understanding of that, and I did write, I did dedicate two whole chapters to helping people gain a foundational grounding in scientific literacy. Because if you if you're completely devoid of scientific literacy, you're easily fooled. And you're easily easily conned, you're easily be asked by various forces in the media who either just want to take your money or, or just want to take your money. So yeah, okay, so, so the conversations on social media give me the ideas of what to write about in the Research Review. One example is the World Health Organization put out a press release, saying that, you know, there's a sort of a light penciled in recommendation to not use artificial sweeteners. Because it's, and this has sent the evidence based community in a bit of a tailspin, because the World Health Organization is supposedly authoritative. But when they put out this this soft guideline, they're basically going against a full one half of the evidence base behind this concept behind the topic of artificial sweeteners. So with experimental evidence with interventional evidence, which is controlled, and which does establish causal relationships, you consistently see weight loss, you consistently see fat loss, improvements in body composition, and the ensuing improvements in various health outcomes. From substituting caloric sweeteners with non caloric or local or artificial sweeteners. That's a very consistent finding. But in the observational literature, which does not control the variables, you can only make statistical adjustments here after the fact.
• 16:29
  Alan Aragon: But observational stuff, epidemiological stuff, following large populations, but not necessarily getting a hand in there and intervening and controlling and establishing the straight and strong causal arrows. It's mixed, sometimes there is a favorable association with the consumption of artificial sweeteners. And sometimes there's an unfavorable Association. And so those unfavorable associations with artificial sweeteners and disease are what made the World Health Organization just kind of flip a switch and go home, maybe, maybe we need to recommend that people don't, don't consume artificial sweeteners. But the big problem with that is, when you look at the question of whether artificial sweeteners are good for health or not, and you basically lean on observational data for that, then you open up the possibility for this this confounding element called reverse causality. Okay, so, yes, so instead of the artificial sweetener, causing the disease outcomes, what you have are people on route to those disease outcomes, who decide I better hop on this diet product. Yeah, I better use this artificial sweetener. And so the association is still there, but it's in the wrong causal direction. And so that is the case with artificial sweeteners.
• 18:03
  Alan Aragon: And that's why the World Health Organization, in its hilariously infinite wisdom is dropping the ball. And so why
• 18:11
  Philip Pape: are they do why are they doing that? What is their incentive is? Because it isn't money? What is their incentive?
• 18:18
  Alan Aragon: That's a really good question. I think, yeah, personally, I think they're just kind of a bunch of out of touch hippies, that perhaps
• 18:26
  Philip Pape: they're just trying to be too conservative because of some sort of liability if they don't, or let you know, just just what it is.
• 18:32
  Alan Aragon: It may be just a matter of people at the top wanting to stir the pot wanting some attention to the sort of basic human need to gain notoriety and get a little bit of spotlight a little bit of the limelight. They did the same thing in 2015, when they tried to push for a recommendation of below 5% of total calories from added sugars, which is preposterous it is they also push for a preposterously low salt intake. So they want people eating three grains of salt and two grains of sugar, and then cutting out your artificial sweeteners. Who the hell are these people? Yeah, now they don't even know these people probably don't even live to Yeah,
• 19:14
  Philip Pape: exactly. Right.
• 19:14
  Philip Pape: That's important. It's so funny.
• 19:18
  Philip Pape: That I think so I was talking to I think it was Eric Helms. We got into discussion a little bit about seed oils as well. And I've heard you talk about that.
• 19:24
  Philip Pape: And I want to go to I don't want to go down the rabbit hole today. I've got other topics I think. But I think it's a similar I think it's a similar thing right where there's
• 19:32
  Alan Aragon: I could probably I could probably beat Eric on the seat off topic. Eric's probably a noob when it comes to see
• 19:40
  Philip Pape: Oh, no. All right.
• 19:40
  Philip Pape: So the important thing is to have that literacy and to read the first two chapters of flexible dieting because it gives you an ALEC is a really good summary of what that is in layman's terms super quick and easy to understand so that you're you're armed going forward And I also in the book where you then took off and started talking about some of that research that lays the foundation. One of those was that I now use a lot when I communicate on this as well as rigid versus flexible control, right? Just kind of underpinning flexible dieting. Because a lot of people will throw out the, If It Fits Your Macros kind of approach as flexible dieting, and we know that there's, that's not what it is. And what I really learned from the science that started in the 90s, when they started putting out these papers was the sustainability and the outcome that is associated with the flexible control. So just walk us a little bit through that journey of the literature and why flexible dieting is such a powerful tool based on what we know for rigid versus flexible control.
• 20:46
  Alan Aragon: Okay, so we get into a time machine go all the way back to the mid 70s. Where there is this talk about the concept of restraint and how it affects people psychologically.
• 21:01
  Alan Aragon: And so there's there's flexible, restraint, rigid restraint. And then we fast forward 20 years and, and the literature dives into rigid dietary restraint versus flexible dietary restraint. And so well that can be entertained with the term dietary control. So, so flexible dieting refers to a cognitive style of the type of restraint that you apply to dieting. So the rigid type of control would be a perception of foods and dieting as black or white, all or nothing, a dichotomous view, if you will, of foods and dieting, and the flexible model of dietary control looks at a very broad spectrum of shades of grey. And so the the flexible model has been compared with the rigid model in several studies over the past couple of decades.
• 22:10
  Alan Aragon: And it consistently shows better results and better results. I mean, everything from a lesser tendency to stoke eating disorders, and also a better control of weight loss and weight loss maintenance. And so we're looking at better results, both in the psychological direction as well as the physical and physiological direction. And so it's very clear that there's something treacherous foot when you're taking the rigid dietary control approach. And it's, it seems to be self sabotaging. And it seems to not work in the long term for the majority of the population.
• 22:58
  Alan Aragon: And so if we were to look at specific examples here, so a rigid dietary control model would be handing somebody a menu, a script, saying, This is what you eat, From Here to Eternity, don't deviate from it, otherwise, you fail. And a flexible model would be more like, okay, let's say even handing somebody the same script. But saying, you know, as long as you do this script, about 80% of the time 80% of the script. And if you do mess up, don't worry about it, just get right back on the wagon and keep going, then that would be a bit more of a flexible type of model. But I think it's important to, to pan back a little bit. And this is a this is a sort of a difficult concept to convey. But read flexible dieting really accounts for the flexibility of dietary approach.
• 24:03
  Alan Aragon: So if somebody does better by being more quantitative and precise, and micromanaging, then that's the approach that that individuals should take. If if another individual does better and can sustain their plan by being more qualitative, more habits based, and being more just idea oriented, and not granular and micromanaging, and they do better that way, then that's the approach they should take. And so there's a flexibility of approach going on here to where something like If It Fits Your Macros where you're punching grams into an app might actually drive some people it drives people crazy. And some people can only endure that for a few weeks before they go home and this is a real pain in the butt and I can't do this, then that's that it's not for them, they should be taking the more habits based type of qualitative type of approach to dieting. And I think that if you can individualize that, then that would be ideal. And there are other aspects within dietary programming that can be individualized. And that also falls under the umbrella of flexible dietary control. So a rigid dietary control model would say that, everybody's got to go keto. Whereas a flexible dietary model would be, hey, if you like keto, you prefer to keto, if you like high carb, low fat, then that's what you should do, because you prefer it, and therefore you'll stick to it in the long term, if you'd like somewhere in between, hey, go that way. Because it's all about doing what you personally prefer. And therefore what you can personally sustain for more than just a few weeks or a few months, whatever you like, best is what you'll be able to sustain for a few years, or you know, a few decades. And there are the other things that are flexible within the dietary program are things like food selection, so the if YM model has been, you know, very flexible about what you can choose in terms of food selection, okay, and that's fine. And that should be a flexible thing. Other programming variables that are flexible are the linearity or non linearity of your caloric intake through the week, or what your intake distribution even looks like, through the day, another variable that can be individualized. And really, when you think of variables of the diet that are flexible, you can think of it in terms of programming variables that you can individualize. So if nothing else, flexible dieting is a way to individualize the dietary variables to suit the individual's personal preference, personal tolerances, and controls, sure, and it can even, you can even, you can even customize things like the way that they hold themselves accountable to what they eat, you can you can individualize the tracking and accountability aspect, you can individualize the way that people approach the so called hedonic allotment or the junk food or indulgence foods, how are they going to manage that aspect of the diet?
• 27:38
  Alan Aragon: Is it going to be an everyday thing? Is it going to be a once a week thing? So all of these things are
• 27:42
  Philip Pape: flexible? Yeah. And that's, that's the key, right?
• 27:46
  Philip Pape: Because they're the term flexible dieting gets thrown around a lot with that restrictive or rigid definition of calories or macros. And really, the entire approach is flexible across many variables, it's multi dimensional. You know, in your book, you have a few tables that that give you these spectra along these different variables, which is very helpful. What I wonder this question comes to mind is, is there such a thing as too flexible, if you're trying to go for a specific goal, meaning if you have, for example, a body composition goal with fat loss?
• 28:14
  Philip Pape: Doesn't there have to be some boundary that drives you toward that goal that you can successfully follow and meet and know that you got there? Or are we saying that look, if if you want to take two years to lose, you know, the 10 pounds? Because all you cannot tolerate any rigidity, and that flexible approach, then that's what you do? You know what I'm saying?
• 28:37
  Alan Aragon: Yeah, they're, I would still default to what the individual prefers, and how they operate, how the individual, what makes them tick. So we're gonna give a couple of examples.
• 28:51
  Alan Aragon: So like, whereas somebody like Eric helms might grab a scale and punch in the grams, and be, you know, do his flexible approach that way. You'll have somebody like Shawn Ray, who says, you know, I just eat less.
• 29:05
  Alan Aragon: I just kind of go by feel, and I eat less than if I'm running a certain hunger level, then I know that I'm dieting. Both of them will take, well, actually, Eric will take six months to prepare for a contest. Shomrei will take three months. There's other variables in there that are different in their protocol.
• 29:29
  Philip Pape: Sure. And you could still be weighing yourself. It's like, that's a separate thing that's not really associated with the dieting and so on, right?
• 29:35
  Alan Aragon: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
• 29:35
  Alan Aragon: So it really kind of depends on how the individual ticks and that's sort of the beauty of about of that flexible dieting model is it's really usable for for coaches because their coaches are needed to help people figure out what works best for them. And for individuals who are self taught, well then that will, that's a good thing for them too. But the understanding is your program and your approach is going to be unique to you and what makes you tick.
• 30:12
  Philip Pape: Yeah, honestly, the a lot of the challenges we see aren't just, for example, macros, like even if somebody's willing to do that, and to track it, and understands it. It's the behavior based the cravings, the hunger, the social pressure, the emotional eating all of those things that come into play.
• 30:31
  Philip Pape: Yeah. So like, what's your approach to this in the context of flexible dieting, you kind of already gave the answer the fact that you have flexibility built in, but is there anything beyond that?
• 30:44
  Alan Aragon: I think that just as long as people can focus on the long game, and whether they can see themselves, tracking the way they track or focusing the way they focus, then, then I think it's all realistic and doable. For some people, they truly realize that the most granular that they can get for a lifetime, is making sure at least three of their meals have a substantial hit of protein, and that they're consuming their meals to a comfortable level of fullness. And that will likely get them to be hitting the targets that they want to hit.
• 31:23
  Alan Aragon: Sure. Whereas with other people, it's like, okay, get me the scale, and I'm going to be counting grams until I'm 85 years old, and I'm going to really enjoy it. The
• 31:33
  Unknown: most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything, and that there was going to be no judgment, it was just Well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it. And then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that. And a lot of people out there trying to be coaches, and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive.
• 32:00
  Unknown: And coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help and Philip really embodied all of those qualities, I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.
• 32:20
  Philip Pape: Where do you fall on that? Alan, where do you fall personally,
• 32:24
  Alan Aragon: I'm a little bit, I'm a little bit in the middle as I'm big on, on optimizing the diet for for health and longevity. So, so I'm aware of making sure that that my diet covers the range of the food groups, and that some people think the food groups is an old school thing to, to pay attention to. But the fact of the matter is, we can't just look at the diet as as a set of nutrients, you know, there's some inputs magic within the food matrix of the various food groups, and there are hundreds, probably 1000s of compounds that we haven't isolated, that benefit human health in within each of the food groups. So I make sure that my diet has something from each of the six food groups every day. And I make sure that in so that's the sort of the, the food selection part of it. And then the macro nutrition part of it, I make sure that I'm eating about 40 ish, well, let's say 30 to 50 grams of protein four times a day. Sure, you know, and then I've got my protein covered. And then I just make sure that the meals that I eat our meals that I love, and there if you've nailed the type of meal kind of archetypes that you love, you can just eat that for life, you can have the same types of meals true and, and enjoy them every time. And just like if somebody enjoys coffee, you can enjoy coffee for a freakin lifetime, every single day of your life and it can be the same way with with different meals, different foods. So, so yeah, fine. You have to find what you enjoy.
• 34:20
  Alan Aragon: Cover the food groups, get your macro nutrition right with protein being kind of the kind of the foundation there to make sure that you're you're getting enough of because it's very rare for people to need to really gosh, I gotta get enough carbs and gotta get enough fat. Unless you're somebody who has specific athletic goals then those variables are not terribly important. So somebody like myself, I don't have to worry about getting enough calories is number one I love to eat. And number two, I do not have a Eat high energy output. And so if anything I have to kind of keep an eye on, not overeating. Sure.
• 35:06
  Alan Aragon: And so yes, it's going to be different with everybody. But with me, I guess the thing that might stick out is the fact that I do care about health quite a bit. So I want to make sure I get all the food groups in, in the course of the day and enough servings from the food groups in through the course of the day in the course of the week. Yeah, I think
• 35:27
  Philip Pape: I'd enjoy sit and sit down with you throughout the course of the day and seeing what you eat. Because it sounds delicious, too, you know, the more you get, yeah, so kind of, I guess the counter counter to that. But you did mention the other side, the indulgences and treats and things that people like. And, of course, a lot of people getting into this journey for the first time or have been struggling, have a lack of awareness of how much the what they eat, what's in what they eat, and on and on and on. And so there's definitely, there's processes that different people have to go through to kind of level up their education and awareness. But we talked about treats and indulgences, once you get to the point where you you understand this and you have an approach, what is the sustainable way to do that, beyond just saying 20%, you know, an allocation, and no, that's part of it. For some people their cravings or, or emotional triggers. You know, some people would do better to abstain, and some people might do better to occasionally indulge so that they kind of take the edge off and enjoy what they enjoy. What is your take on that?
• 36:29
  Alan Aragon: I think this is another department where you have to dive into what the individual's proclivities are.
• 36:37
  Alan Aragon: So there is a small subset of people who are better off not having any of the classic junk foods. But Alternatively, they have to investigate the foods that really fulfill that part of their primal needs. You know, like, some people will feel an, an incredible reward response from eating some fresh fruit. A, okay, that's great, if you want to stick with that, and you don't want to do the cakes and the cookies and the ice cream.
• 37:13
  Alan Aragon: Okay, cool, then that's you.
• 37:13
  Alan Aragon: Whereas others may actually be able to sustain a diet better if they can have a double scoop of ice cream on the weekend. Or a, an in and out, double double, let's say, on the weekend, or whatever, whatever it is, but sort of this model of 10 to 20% of total calories coming from whatever, it can manifest in different ways. So like with me, for example, my in quotes, discretionary calorie allotment is usually chocolate, some form of chocolate, and that's usually daily. And so I will have about, I probably err on the 10 to 15% of my total calories coming from indulgence foods. So an example would be about two to 300 calories of some kind of chocolaty dessert, it's usually a little closer to 200, than than 300. But it's, it's chocolate, I can add nuts to it, I can add peanut butter to it.
• 38:31
  Alan Aragon: And I truly enjoy, I don't need to dive into an entire cake to get that that itch scratched.
• 38:43
  Alan Aragon: Because I know I'm going to have it the next day if I want to.
• 38:48
  Alan Aragon: And so as long as it's framed for the person's kind of just mindset to perceive this as this is something I can take or leave and this is something I can have every day if I want or not. And when that mindset is established, then the kind of indulgence and the forbidden fruit aspect of the food and the power that the food has over the individual is kind of taken away. Yeah. So So yeah, that would
• 39:17
  Philip Pape: be the approach and that's a great way to put it the forbidden fruit aspect the power it gets taken away. You earlier mentioned your heat Donek allotment and that's sometimes a term I hear used or what is called plan hedonism, we'll plan higher calorie it goes really for all of this and it goes back to the rigid versus flexible approach again of once you set rules on to people man we just rebel we like mentally we just don't want to be told what to do is the way I like to put it and so when you're telling yourself you can't do this, it's just just a built to go Yeah.
• 39:51
  Alan Aragon: Yeah, what would most people it does, and in fact, what people have binge eating disorder, the vast majority of the I have it in their mind that they're not allowed to have XY and Z foods, you know, this list of foods, I am not allowed to have these foods they have that in their mind. And those are the precise foods that they've been John.
• 40:15
  Philip Pape: Got it? Yeah, it makes sense. So okay, so we've talked a lot about the control or the restraint aspect. I maybe talk about you mentioned protein for a bit. So I didn't want to ask you like this, this has come up quite a bit. With some other coaches I've talked about the split between protein sources are foods that you eat and the sources you get, in other words, animal versus plant, and all the various outcomes, muscle building, but also cardiovascular health and lean mass and all of those things. Is there like a hierarchy of when it comes to selecting foods to get our protein? Or does it really always come back to just get enough spread it throughout the day and have a diverse diet with like the six food groups and you're good?
• 41:02
  Alan Aragon: For the majority of the population, dude, what you just said is going to apply for the majority of the population that that is bright on actually.
• 41:11
  Alan Aragon: But for people who are nitpicking towards the you know the fringes and the limits the optimal aspects, then it's going to come down to omnivore ism, it's going to come down to including both animal and plant foods as far as protein goes.
• 41:32
  Alan Aragon: But theoretically, you know, you can construct a diet that that'll help you live to the mean, the mean high higher end age, or a favorable upper upper end. But it depends on how much you really kind of obsess over health and how protective you are of mental health. And how complete you you want your your nutrient intake to be. And so I'm always going to personally default to omnivore ism for that. And that is not to say that there is an innumerable amount of people doing well if x cluding animal foods, but I don't personally want to incur any of the risks and sub optimizations associated with it.
• 42:29
  Philip Pape: Talk to Eric Trexler. About that. Yeah, he is. Yeah, I'll miss it. I actually talking to him next week. So he's gonna explore some of that the interesting, as we get older, the idea of anabolic resistance, which I haven't honestly dived into too much, but how big of a deal is that phenomenon? Like, how why does it happen? And what can we do about it? Like, is it is it? Is it related to age? Or is it related to kind of a loss of muscle mass most people have, because I haven't been training, for example.
• 43:04
  Alan Aragon: Okay, so um, that's a good actually a good transition like a 100%, plant based and the elderly population, those are two things that don't go well. And that's because there are certain critical aspects of the diet that can be fulfilled, more feasibly with an omnivorous diet in the elderly, than with with a completely plant based diet.
• 43:34
  Alan Aragon: unless you can convince elderly folks to eat the volume of foods and the types of foods and the supplementation of, let's say, protein sources, and the use of engineered plant protein type sources that could hypothetically cover their their essential amino acids and protein needs to protect against sarcopenia that can be an issue.
• 43:58
  Alan Aragon: And so now, even when you do that, you're still not going to get all the nutrients that are available within animal foods, you're still not going to get new collagen. And there is quite a lot of research showing the benefits of collagen supplementation, getting collagen within the diet, the role of collagen and even basic things like tissue healing, you're not going to get that you're not going to get creatine unless you supplement with it.
• 44:39
  Alan Aragon: You're not going to get other things like carnitine carnosine answering the debatable one cholesterol, whether that's going to net help you or not.
• 44:50
  Alan Aragon: And, and so, a lot of these compounds like marine based Omega three EPA DHA, especially DHA, you're going to have a hell of a time getting that in a in an animal free diet, unless you supplement with an algal based DHA, EPA. And so people who switch over to a full bore plant based thing, and they're doing it for ideological reasons. Hey, have at it. Have at it, Eric.
• 45:28
  Philip Pape: Eric's ready to get started now.
• 45:32
  Alan Aragon: They can both have at it. That's when things get get interesting. But But yeah, one of the reasons that I have not even at the tender age of 51, crossed over to full plant based and not even close, is because I'm too protective of my of the optimization of my own personal health, and my own personal longevity, I don't think it's possible to take to recreate the nutrition in animal based foods, and by throwing together a bunch of the compounds that we know, at which that might be the sum of the parts and attempting to create the whole in a plant based form.
• 46:18
  Alan Aragon: Just Color Me skeptical. But yeah,
• 46:25
  Philip Pape: yeah, no, that's cool. I didn't know you're honestly gonna go there. Because I was just curious about incorporating plants, not so much going all the way plant based. But I'm glad you brought that up. Because because people ask that and you have a fairly definitive position on that, that that people should understand, or at least the compromises and trade offs are making if they decide to go one way or the other and have to make decisions to fill in the gaps. Okay, and I am
• 46:50
  Alan Aragon: very, I'm very live and let live. I think that people have the right to take that road, take the plant based road. And a lot of people do quite well on I mean, at the population level, and at the sort of at the at the general population level via people who do vegan ism properly. They do very well. I just, you know, personally for myself and you my loved ones, I I wouldn't I put a little bit of a blockade on.
• 47:28
  Philip Pape: So it's all good.
• 47:28
  Philip Pape: It's all good.
• 47:30
  Alan Aragon: And I have many I have many vegan friends. I have many vegan friends. Sure. And I'm glad that that they that, you know, not every vegan is living let live in this aspect.
• 47:41
  Alan Aragon: But I'm glad my vegan friends are very live and let live with me as an omnivore rather than kind of judging and then excluding and condemning. But yeah, the judges cluding can condemn thing.
• 47:56
  Philip Pape: Yeah, no, I agree, Doc dogma and putting up those walls and everything. We don't need that. Oh, well. Okay, so let's get into another hot topic. Maybe not hot topic. But it's an interesting one. That's nonlinear dieting. And intermittent fasting is the big one that comes out of there. But there's also other many other strategies you talked about in the book. One, one thing I wanted to ask about specifically what we talked about that time restricted feeding, but also carb cycling, in the context of when somebody is in a fat loss phase, and they're just don't have many calories to work with, you know, they have low calories, maybe two or three meals a day. Is there any value in the nonlinear dieting approach, like carb cycling for that or intermittent fasting for that matter?
• 48:42
  Alan Aragon: The kind of the anti climactic answer Phillip is that it depends on it depends on whether the person prefers it depends on whether the person prefers it. So the conditions where nonlinear dieting work best are usually under conditions where somebody will a prefers it. And if we're talking about just like, like meal frequency, are we talking about meal frequency in general? Are we talking about carb intake specifically?
• 49:21
  Philip Pape: That's a good question, right? Because there's both the protein carb distribution because of your workouts, for example, to make sure you have enough carbs around your workouts, and there's also the muscle protein synthesis, right? So all of these come into play. It's like should we squeeze everything using time restricted feeding, because I'm also going to be ravenous. Other times for some people? And is it gonna, like throw all this other stuff out the window? Or is it just fine?
• 49:45
  Philip Pape: You know, like, whatever works for you. It's good enough.
• 49:50
  Alan Aragon: Yeah, it depends on really kind of depends on on the scenario. Yeah. Depends on the goal. So it's like, you know, with these questions Since like, what's the goal and what's the population. So with, let's take an extreme population like competitive bodybuilders or competitive physique athletes, there's almost always going to be a carb cycling or a calorie cycling type of model, especially towards towards the end in deep spots of prep, where you're not going to be going linear, low calorie, to where those spikes or those carb ups are going to both serve as a psychological boost as well as boost in training capacity to kind of preserve that during during those stretches. And so if somebody has a large amount of carbs allotted to them daily, then the need for cycling them is close to nil. Now, if somebody is taking a low carb model or a ketogenic diet model, then a nonlinear approach to carbon taken can boost adherence, and it can improve training performance on certain days. And so it really depends on the individual situation. And so now if we go away from carbs, and on to just meals, in general, that truly just depends on the individual's preference.
• 51:15
  Alan Aragon: Some people prefer a grazing pattern. Whereas some people prefer more of a gorging pattern, where instead of eating like four to six small meals a day, they're eating, like two to three larger meals a day. And there's really no advantage specific to each of those or exclusive to each of those beyond the person's personal preference for them. For either one of those. And the intermittent fasting topic is really, it is really fascinating. And we've looked at that quite a bit, I just wrote a kind of a monster a review on intermittent fasting effects on body composition. Apparently, the human species is just extremely tolerant and resilient, have such a wide range of permutations of meal frequencies through the day, and through the week that it honestly almost doesn't matter to the point where it's really all about personal preference and what your goal is. So the different variants of intermittent fasting are interesting to look at because you have the one variant which is just concentrating your feeding window to a shorter time period in the day. So time restricted eating or time restricted feeding, as we used to call it. This was popularized by Martin Birkin when an Oreo Hof Mechler, with a Warrior Diet where you give yourself somewhere between usually 568 hours to eat your to eat all the food in your day. There's a lot of research research been done on that with and without training, there's been a lot of research on alternate day fasting, whether it be zero calorie alternate day fasting, or a little bit more gentle model where on your inputs, fasting days, you're eating like about 500 ish calories a day.
• 53:16
  Alan Aragon: That's the Crysta Verity model of alternate day fasting. And then there's the twice weekly fasting with a five two model, which is an even more gentle version of the alternate day fasting. So all of these models have been studied. All of these models have done comparably well to daily caloric restriction for weight loss and fat loss. But then the subtleties and the nuances there are interesting too, depending on what what goal you're looking at. But okay, a misconception with fasting is that it's better for your health better for longevity.
• 54:03
  Philip Pape: Due to all sorts of theories autophagy or whatever else. Yeah, yeah, so that's
• 54:08
  Alan Aragon: not that's not true. That's just a bunch of speculations. And, in fact, the leaner, you get the leaner and more fit you get, the more risky fasting becomes for the preservation of lean body mass.
• 54:25
  Philip Pape: Yes. Yeah, no, I this is great. And I'll tell you, I've personally tried various forms of, if over the years, lean games, protocol, facet training, whatever. And I always came back to just eating when I kind of felt right. And by that tends to work, right, because it's sustainable. And I love that people can hear this and just continue to dispel these myths and realize that it's so simple. I mean, it can be simple. It's like what works for you. And then the other variables you have to tweak to get to your goal get there, but don't try to go after this next shiny thing or some You know, pet theory, just because whatever you're doing now maybe isn't working for other reasons, but like consistency and adherents. So it's a good message and we keep hammering home. So I thank you for that. I know we're running short on time. So I'm just going to ask my second last question, which I asked all my guests. And that is Alan, what one question Did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?
• 55:24
  Alan Aragon: Dude, can I tell you that? I read the show notes.
• 55:28
  Alan Aragon: And I read that damn question.
• 55:28
  Alan Aragon: And I'm like, I am genuinely stumped. I'm stumped. But I, I lean towards maybe wanting to be asked, What if there's something else that I would rather be doing than what I'm doing?
• 55:52
  Philip Pape: Oh, that's an interesting one.
• 55:55
  Alan Aragon: If you had if a genie could just kind of wave a wand over you. And would give you your dream job or your dream vocation, you know, your just your dream situation? Would you?
• 56:11
  Alan Aragon: What would that be? And I I am at a loss for thinking of what I enjoy more than what I'm doing right now, which is researching and teaching and striving for self improvement and helping others do that the same thing.
• 56:29
  Alan Aragon: So I can't think I can't think of it. But then now here's the hilarious part, okay. About 25 years ago, I was at the gym, and this older guy. He he struck up a conversation with me, and he said, Okay, check this out, man.
• 56:57
  Alan Aragon: This is everybody claims that they want to be this or that or what they want to become this or that. But here's the thing that everybody would want to be.
• 57:06
  Alan Aragon: Regardless, here's the thing, every guy would leave their job for no matter what you work as.
• 57:15
  Alan Aragon: And I'm like, Okay, what he's all a male supermodel.
• 57:23
  Philip Pape: I didn't see that comment, that was just something profound. Looking at him, and he says,
• 57:31
  Alan Aragon: I'm serious, every guy would leave the job that imagine that you get paid millions of dollars to stand there and look good.
• 57:43
  Philip Pape: The process of tightening look good, because that's the hard part.
• 57:48
  Alan Aragon: And that was super duper hilarious. And then there's another hilarious story attached to that, where I've done these, these talks on succeeding in the fitness industry. Like, how to how to succeed, okay? And so my definition, my personal definition of success is doing what you love to do. But what you're actually doing is something you would not trade out for any other other job, any other career. So if you're doing what you love, more than anything, it's more than any other kind of career, that you can think of career position or whatever that you can think of.
• 58:34
  Alan Aragon: Then you're succeeding if you're doing that. And,
• 58:39
  Philip Pape: and yeah, meaning you don't have to have a certain results doing that just yet.
• 58:41
  Philip Pape: You've already succeeded because you're doing what you love, right? You're
• 58:46
  Alan Aragon: because you're because you're doing what you love. And if you're doing what you love, then then you you're successful. Now, this is the super funny part. I gave this talk. And my friend Brad Schoenfeld was in the audience.
• 59:01
  Alan Aragon: And he yelled this out, like, in the middle of me saying, Okay, so I'm trying to think of exactly how I said it. So I get this, right. I said if you're okay, no, no, no, yeah, I said, I, I feel like I've succeeded.
• 59:19
  Alan Aragon: Because there's, there's no nobody out there. Whose shoes I would trade. You know, there, whether it's whether it's Tom Cruise or Lord knows what you know, think of a celebrity think of somebody who has it all or anything. There's nobody out there, who I would trade places with. And then Brad Schoenfeld yells from the audience. Except Brett stupid hilarious. Because Because Brett you know, as much as we like, like to think our jobs are awesome. Like, of course, Brett Brett got to figure it out better than we do.
• 1:00:00
  Alan Aragon: Right. So, so so it was just amazing. He said he yelled it out loud. The the audience just died laughing because they get the joke. And so yeah, so aside from maybe a supermodel or Brett. Yeah, got it.
• 1:00:15
  Philip Pape: Now that's a good question, one of the thought to ask you that because you do seem to just love what you do. So I wouldn't even I wouldn't even have dared, you know. I do love it. And then yeah, no, that's awesome. That's awesome. So I could have easily asked you a million more questions. But let's just end with how people can best reach out to you and learn about you.
• 1:00:34
  Alan Aragon: Alan aragon.com is the hub of everything. My largest social media platform is Instagram. And I'm occasionally on Twitter and Facebook and even more rarely on Tik Tok. For better probably, I don't know.
• 1:00:47
  Alan Aragon: Yeah.
• 1:00:50
  Philip Pape: All right, yeah, tick tock. I know so many platforms. Okay. So I'll go I'll put those in the show notes people easily be able to find you of course. And this was a pleasure and an honor Alan, I really appreciate you, you know, replying to my invitation when I reached out to you by video on IG actually, and coming on the shows. It was awesome. Thank you for coming on.
• 1:01:09
  Alan Aragon: Thank you right back Phillip.
• 1:01:12
  Philip Pape: Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them.
• 1:01:25
  Philip Pape: And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.