Latest / Psyched For Sanity / Episode 18 - Emotions 101: Shame

Transcript

Episode 18 - Emotions 101: Shame · Psyched For Sanity

• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, welcome to Psych for Sanity.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: I am one of your hosts, Dr.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Tara McKelvey Parker.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: I specialize in treating and assessing complex trauma and attachment wounds from childhood.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I am your other host, Dr.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: Brendel Doss, a licensed clinical psychologist specializing in geriatric psychology, assessment, trauma treatment, and forensic psychology.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: And um this is really hard to say.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: And it's uh I have embarrassment and some shame around this.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe I should, maybe I shouldn't.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: Oh god.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: I know I'm not the only one out there that that does does this or watches these.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone, um, any kind of regular listener of ours knows that I very early on in our podcasting journey shared about my love of train videos.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: Train documentaries.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard to forget.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I had no problem sharing that, but this is a little, this feels a little more vulnerable for me to share.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Oh gosh, what is coming?
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: I have been watching these new videos, not new, they're not new.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: They're not new, that's not today.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: These videos um from this creator, and they are hoof trimming videos.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: Brendle?
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have words, actually.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I this is this is my fear.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: What are you doing?
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: So these are this is a man in Wisconsin.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: He's Nate the Hoof guy, and he makes videos of trimming cows' hooves.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Why, Brendel?
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: I don't, I don't fully know.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: It just helps me.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's it I don't know.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: So this is why I I had embarrassment and shame over this.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: See, I'm a little bit regretting telling you this.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, look at my face.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm looking at your face.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: I love you.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: I love you too.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: I love your uniqueness.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, geez.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: I just someone besides my spouse does.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: I just don't conceptually understand it.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think we established in the last video that I'm much hipper and cooler than you.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: We did.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: Your vibe is on.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: My vibe is on.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um I don't really uh I don't know.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think my vibe left when I was about 15.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't seen it since.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't been looking for it.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: I've been busy.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, because she's watching hoov trimming videos.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: But it's so it's something like he helps the cows uh relieve the pressure in their hooves from the boo-boos.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, well, you've left out that part, Brendan.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, it's he does these trims and at least like cute.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know so much about cow trimming now.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's because it they hurt.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well, they have they're limping, they're lame.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: And he helps these cows, he like scrapes off the parts of the hoof and relieves the pressure in the hoof.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's sweet.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't tell me that part.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, and also.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: But that's also continuously shaped.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: So actually some are regular trims, but a lot of the videos that are more popular that are like whatever, and he's been doing this for a long time.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's a big on YouTube.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's like millions of followers.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I know I'm not the only person out there.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe if you're maybe if you're a fellow fan of Nate the Hoof guy, maybe leave a comment so my co-host doesn't think I'm functionally.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: I could get on board a little bit when it was like, you know, um, the doctor for cows, you know, relieving the pressure.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that was super sweet.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: And like, oh, like, you know, I could, I could understand that.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: The part about trimming the hooves, it's like people who like to also watch the pimple pop the pimple pop.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's exactly how it's I can't I can like that's not weird.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: Thing I cannot watch that at all.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: You can't, well, that's also kind of gross.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a maybe like anyway.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: Your story though does remind me of our topic today.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, actually, because you started out talking about shame and embarrassment.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you were kind of scared that I was gonna reject you and make fun of you and make you feel like a kind of blame loser.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, that's not what I did.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: No, you're very kind and you're a good friend and it's hard to again the trimming part.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I don't why?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: But but you know, recently, so we have some regular listeners to the podcast now, which is like exciting.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: So exciting.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: We love it.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, thank you, everybody.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 4:16
  unknown: Yeah.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I was asking around about, you know, like, you know, thus far in any of the episodes you've watched, have you had questions?
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything you're curious about?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Are there any, you know, do you have any ideas about podcast episodes you'd like to hear?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: We do talk a lot about trauma, um, or I I do.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, and especially in the context of parenting and how that comes up.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I had one listener who asked for some kind of like beginner-friendly advice on how to start healing childhood abuse and neglect.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh, okay, that's a bit.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's a great question.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: And also, like, what would I suggest?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because healing abuse and neglect is complicated, you know, it can be complicated.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: And and while a podcast episode isn't gonna do all the work, yeah, this person was mostly looking like, where do I start?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: Where do I start?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: And like if I could do if I could do like one thing, you know, like what could I start doing?
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: Sort of like, yeah, beginner beginner, like kind of advice or whatever.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so I thought that's a great question, you know.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I thought really you can't do any healing from childhood abuse and neglect if you don't know how you feel.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, yes.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, because a a bunch of what we experience as an adult who is a survivor is a lot of emotional dysregulation, emotional flashbacks, just having a ton of emotion that we're flooded by that we just don't really know what to do with because when we were children, nobody really helped us figure out how to handle our feelings, really.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: And even if your parents, I would I would hazard a guess, even if your parents aren't considered like don't know some aren't abusive or neglectful, I don't know that a lot of people, I think more our generation, I'm an old millennial, I don't I think more our generation talks about mood and emotion with our children in a way that was different than my parents taught mummy.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: But I think even the typical, the prototypical parent out there, you know, doesn't always talk about emotion.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: I mean or understand their own.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: Or understand their own.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: So this, yeah, this will be good for, you know, not just, you know, survivors of um abuse and neglect.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I was thinking, you know, okay, emotion, like what could we do around that?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and so I thought it could be helpful just to have some episodes that are kind of directed at one emotion and what it is and what it its purpose is and like how it manifests and what to do.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, maybe emotion 101.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Emotion 101, yeah.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, okay, that's like kind of you know, and that seems a little silly, but like genuinely a lot of people don't know how they feel or don't know what it looks like or what to do about it.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: Even people have a much harder time knowing what they feel when they exactly feel it, and then knowing how to effectively move through a process that feeling.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: So emotion 101, I like that actually.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so yeah, emotion one-on-one.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna be devoting some episodes to different emotions, and today we're covering shame.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: Shame.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: So this is why your story reminded me of it because shame.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: Shame is one of my favorites, you know.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: We like link arms, me and fear and guilt, and we just skip around the playground sometimes.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: Stop.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: No, don't.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: I know, but seriously, sh shame is a big one for for those who experienced childhood neglect or abuse.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, but but also just normal in the population.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, like some people experience we all experience shame to a degree at different points in time.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: But well, all emotions serve a purpose.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: So shame, shame is this idea, you know, that I am bad, I'm not good enough, right?
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a failure.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, basically like I am some negative judgment about the self.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_02: And not only some negative judgment, but an absolute Yeah, it's usually, yes, absolutely.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it's um, you know, shame again, all of it is is normal and sort of serves a purpose, and it gets a little toxic and unhealthy whenever, you know, we have more of it and it's more pervasive.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: But really, shame does have a purpose, like a legitimate purpose.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: And really, you know, the main one of the main purposes is to keep us in connection with other people.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, how does shame manifest in the body?
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think that I think anytime we have a feeling to start figuring out what we feel when we feel it, we kind of have to start at the beginning.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: And how would someone recognize someone that didn't have any kind of um experience understanding their emotions?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: After they have the thought, I'm a bad person, what kind of experience might they have in their body to kind of tell them, oh, this is shame?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so there's different manifestations of how an emotion, so how it looks.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: So one is the cognitive piece that I mentioned before.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: I am bad, I'm a failure.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: Some of us are more aware of that manifestation of shame.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's one of my main sort of tells for when I start to feel ashamed.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's that narrative starts, you know, playing the, yeah, you're a really terrible mom, and you know, you're a really bad therapist, and it's all of that negative judgment.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: I notice it cognitively, but for others, they may notice it in their body more.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so what that could look like is um, you know, not looking at someone.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um like some our bodies can collapse.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of close in.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, like when you're just kind of like, well, everyone slumping your shoulders and sure, you know, I suck and the world sucks.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just like this um heaviness kind of exhaustion, collapse.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um sometimes I mean, I feel like it might do you ever feel in your face when you're embarrassed or ashamed, like a face flush.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't know what about behavi I think behavioral is a big one too.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: So far, behaviors.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, our behaviors can also be manifestations of our emotions.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: So when we're experiencing shame, um, you know, the first thing I want to do when I feel ashamed, and now I can recognize that this behavior is because I feel ashamed.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I can, you know, I have the narrative that's playing too.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: But so for me, it's probably I notice it most when I'm cognitively thinking in a shame-based way, or I'm acting.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: So my first strategy is I'm just gonna hide.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: What's all?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna go away.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: Is this when you disappear?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, when you don't hear from me from a while, it's probably because I'm wallowing in self-pity with guilt, fear, shame.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: We're all just having a sleepover, but we're not doing speciality.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: But it's not a fun sleepover.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a fun sleepover, listeners.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a fun sleep over.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: So this is when I always be like, hey, what you doing?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: You wanna hang out?
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I just want to be alone and cry and wallow in self-pity.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm getting better.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: But you don't do that.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm getting better these days at like accepting the support because it is very, very important when you're feeling ashamed to have support, which we'll talk about more in a second.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, but yeah, definitely the behavioral.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: So hiding, withdrawal.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: What else can you think about?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, no, other behaviors I think related to shame could be self-sabotaging.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: Big one.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: Self-sabotaging, withdrawing, or um, like assuming, like allowing assumptions like about others, you know, but self-sabotage is where, you know, well, if this is, you know, if I'm a bad person, then I'm just gonna be a real bad person.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's it really to me, it it is like shame-based because it's this anger that you've turned toward yourself.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: Which is shame, by the way, folks.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, one of again, one of the ways you can kind of like reduce shame is to get angry, which we'll talk about in a second.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, like anything where you're like, it's an attack on the self.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: So cutting, you see, you know, self-abuse, self-harm, um, you know, drinking or using substances like like significant.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: Illicit substances or substances that are beyond prescription.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like to a really high degree.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um Reckless driving, dating unavailable men.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Those are things that would represent potential self-sabotage that you are not feeling good about yourself.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you are acting out that shame on your body or like in a way that's going to be not really very great for you.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: And harmful.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: And really, it is if I'm a bad person, then I don't deserve anything good.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: So you know what I mean?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like this, I must deserve this.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's just this anger turned inward at yourself and self-destructive.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: But really, it's it comes from the shame of the sense of sure, I'm bad, you know, I'm not I'm undeserving, especially for you know, survivors of trauma.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Again, we all kind of have some shame.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, sure, you know, but people who are survivors of trauma, like abuse or neglect, they have toxic shame.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: Toxic shame is like shame on steroids.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so it's pervasive, it's chronic, it's like, it's just like there, like, you know, like we're like I said, we're like arm in arm.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, hey, buddy.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um there's no relief from it.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's always like you know, yeah, it goes deep.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I'm not a good person, I'm unlovable, I am all of these things.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um that's the thing though, shame is a liar.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, shame, shame, so shame, shame is kind of why I want to defend shame a little bit because I do a little bit.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Toxic shame?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Not toxic shame.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: Toxic shame is a liar.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: There we go.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: So spectrum, toxic shame, like in trauma literature, is the internalized, abusive, neglectful parent.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not nice.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's not nice, okay.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Never okay.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: We don't like it.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's not great.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to we really gotta like combat that toxic shame because it's uh it's abusive, usually.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and functionally speaking, it's inaccurate things.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: It does, it does.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it is not, it is yes.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, there are various things you can do to combat that shame.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: But then other times, you know, because we started out about like what is the purpose of shame.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think when you experience shame to a lesser degree, yeah, right, in a more normalized degree, it does, it is trying to help you seek out connection.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: Say that again.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and it's all it's trying to help you seek out connection and it is trying to help you live more in line with your values.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so like shame was is like a messenger, but when it gets to be toxic, like that abusive internal, you know, or neglectful parent, yeah, we gotta we gotta do that.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: Well, the message gets gets distorted.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's it's again, it's on steroids and it's very like it makes us when it makes us do self-destructive things, not like it's no.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: So that requires like a specific set of things to do, as opposed to sort of well, of course.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll give some basic tips and tricks in a minute about like how to deal with the toxic shame.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: But the the normal at you know, more normal level of of in helpful shame, it is really it's supposed to sort of make you reflect on what mistakes you've made and how you know, like if you yell at your kid because you're angry and you have a value, you know, you you value gentle parenting.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the goal is to stop and reflect and be like, okay, like I really, you know, lost my cool marbles.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: My banana.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just trying to think of a word that wasn't one that started with this.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um thank you.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not supposed to on this podcast.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: No, we're not supposed to.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, if you realize that, then you reflect on it and you're like, okay, this is what I need to do so that I can like stay a little bit cooler and calmer in this moment later.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you kind of move forward.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you may seek out can you may like I know you and I talk all the time often about how we make mistakes with our kids and we can commiserate, and I feel so much better when I tell you what I've done, this terrible thing that I think that I've done, and you're like, oh, I've done that too.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, right?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like we all Well, then you're not alone.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Then I'm not alone.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: So if you know Brene Brown, you know, her whole shame talk, which is kind of like where my like obsession with shame started, was with Brene Brown.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because I've always been like really interested in in shame in general, just intellectually too.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: But she she says the anecdote to shame is empathy and connection.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: If you sit in connection with someone who's experienced the same thing as you has made the same mistake, and it just doesn't, it's just not doesn't impact you.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it normalizes the choices and the behaviors and takes it from the message to wow, maybe I'm not a horrible, complete bad person.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: I made a choice that wasn't in line with my values.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: How can I make a choice that's more in line with my values?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: And this and and so this sounds really simple, and that's because Oh, it's much harder to do in life though.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and it doesn't work with toxic shame, right?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because when you're in like toxic shame, it well, you can't see outside of the narrative, right?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: So you're doing this is really nice reflective work when we are experiencing toxic shame, it is incredibly hard at initially to be reflective because it feels like actually I am terrible, and nothing that you can say or do will convince me otherwise.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so you know, so then it can be extra challenging to do to do this.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I was I was thinking when we were talking about like this episode and things we were gonna talk about with shame.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think I really, even though I was absolutely embarrassed about my hoof trimming videos and up until now.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: Probably normal, like healthy shame, right?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: Her shame is saying, like, hey, you might be rejected if you say this thing about hoof trimming, so maybe don't.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: But then she was like, you know what?
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like super confident in myself and know that Tara will like probably mostly get it.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna be brave.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: Mostly try.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: She'll try to at this point.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna share this thing, but that's like healthy shame.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, uh, but I realized in talking about this that I did not growing up conceptualize experiencing any shame until we started having like more recently have this conversation.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought I I think I told you, I was like, I don't think I've ever really felt shame.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I think she glared at me.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, huh, what a nice life you've had.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna try not to be really jealous, but I am.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but no, we'll talk about jealousy.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: But no, um, but I really I think that I didn't until recently have a functional understanding of what shame was until I recently had, like, as all as all of us do, like a relational rupture in one of my close, intimate relationships.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I made a really sad choice and made some s sad decisions.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I didn't think I functionally fully experienced shame until maybe, maybe toxic shame, maybe, but not fully closer to toxic shame than not.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, whatever happened to you, because relationships mean so much to you, they mean so much to me.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Was probably so scary that it dipped you down into this place of toxic shame.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that but isn't it's not something you typically accept.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: But around this area, this is where you may have some deeper shame.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think it was so out of line with who I try to be in this relationship.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: It was so far from my purpose and my mission in the relationship, right?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: That that's why it must have been so shame-inducing.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: And it was honestly like to be completely trans, it was really helpful.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: I obviously would not have wanted to redo the decisions again.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: 100%.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: Never will again.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: But and I have, thank goodness, had repair, taken complete ownership.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I really feel like once I recognized my errors in the dynamic, I really do feel kind of proud that I lived up to my values and my beliefs about who I feel like I am in relationships in general, and as a person.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I do feel proud of how I moved through that experience emotionally, even though it was functionally like incredibly hard and difficult and painful.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: But I feel like the shame part of it, I don't think I recognized shame until it was like right in your face.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: Until it's in my face.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: And that will help my work with my patients because I do think the lived experiences of therapists are important in terms of treatment.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying people have to have all lived experiences to treat.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: But no, no.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: No, I feel the same way about complex PTSD.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: I knew what it was, I treated it, I could recognize some aspects in myself, but it wasn't really until I had a major life stressor that opened me up and I was having flashbacks and I was emotionally dysregulated, and I was like doing a lot of self-sabotage things, you know, like to it was like kind of clicked into place for me experientially, like, oh, that's what that is.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: This is what my patients feel.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's like so much, it is um, yes, incredibly helpful in being able to understand people's experiences, but it's not pretty and doesn't feel good.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and yeah, now that you've sort of did you did you experience it as almost like very hard to see out of?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm more to be honest with you, I'm more experienced like, huh?
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think I've ever felt this specific way before in my entire life that I can functionally remember.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I did sort of see just like maybe like 20% out of it.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I did, I am a person, I'm an external processor, and I'm grateful that I have a massively wonderful community around me that definitely like you were one of the people like Yes, I can I can attest to how well she did handle this.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, in going sort of like, you know, kind of going back to what can help with shame, right?
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, really one of the main ones is if you can if you if you've got someone you can just be just.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Brave enough to share, right?
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Just vulnerable enough with um, it is so helpful to be able to have someone say back to you, right?
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, I've done that.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I love you anyway.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I love you.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, maybe the world is not ending, even if you feel that way.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, of course.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: It is really helpful when we're in doom land to have someone say, actually, you're, you know, everything's up, it's okay.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I mean, when you're experiencing shame, it's number one, if you can sort of like find someone to be in connection with and to receive support from so you can feel less lonely.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um the fancy therapy term is holding space.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, instead of hiding or withdrawing, right?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: Although we s I s you know, I still do that.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: We still have a tendency.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's still my tendency, but I'm sort of trying to really seek out connection and and and do that less.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: Although sometimes I think I do need I sometimes do need my space.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's and it's becoming a little, it's becoming less like, you know, dire, toxic, you know, like can't see out of, which is really great and nice.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, as I'm doing work on my own shame, but you know, connection, real, real important self-compassion.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: Hard but necessary.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's really hard for harder for some of us than others to actually be kind to yourself because you have that shame, and it does not feel like it fits the narrative that is in your brain about your work.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like but it's so important to be self kind and self-compassionate when you hear that narrative in particular, or if you notice, you know, the shame, like I am good.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: I like to tell myself uh this comes from Dr.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Becky.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um I am a good person that's struggling right now.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's so helpful.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a helpful phrase.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: Kindness.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: Well, so we've talked about like the cognitions associated with shame.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: We've talked about some of the you know, physical experiences people might have and some of the behaviors associated.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: But well, now what do people functionally do?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like starting at the beginning, how does someone try to helpfully process and move through shame?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so like in a concrete sort of way, you know, first name it.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Name it to tame it.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: Name it to tame it.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's a shirt right there.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: That's a shirt.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: Dylan, make a note.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: That's a shirt.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like people say that already.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: I've never heard that before, Jill just now.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: I just made up a thing.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: Did you?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: No, this exists.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, let's get name it.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: So that is the reason why I wanted to do this episode.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because I wanted to help you name shame.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we went over the different ways that shame manifests in the body.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: And how it's truly trying to send a message.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: Behaviorally, cognitively, that you know, if you have a if it's a healthy level of shame, it's trying to send a message, right?
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're not doing something aligned with your values, and hey, you need some support right now.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: Find support, find people.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then it can kind of, as we've talked about, veer into toxic, almost delusional.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: Unhelpful.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh delusional, unhelpful, like I am the worst person in the world.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: Toxic shame that makes us do really, you know, unhelpful things.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I I've I've not been alive for very long, but I've been alive for some years, and I've really never met a Disney villain in person.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I'm saying.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: People act like with shame makes you think like you're the worst person on earth, which would be a Disney villain.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: True.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: So this is one of, yeah.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: So you are doing one of one of the things that I think, you know, we can kind of think about in terms of combating our shame.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, okay, name it.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: So how is it manifesting for me?
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: If it's cognitive, right?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: Remind yourself you're not a Disney villain.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: Remind yourself you are not a Disney villain.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: In no universe are you a bad person.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: In no universe are you unlovable.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: In no univer in the universe, do you deserve bad things?
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because you are a lovely person.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: You're a lovely person.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: You are a lovely person.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so remind yourself you're not a Disney villain and that you're a good person who's having a hard time.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: Even if you've made sad choices or choices you have like true regret over.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I've worked in um, I've worked with all ages from like 99 to 2.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: I've worked in federal prisons, I've worked in outpatient clinics, I've worked in inpatient uh psychiatric centers.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I've met a lot of people that have done and made a lot of different types of choices.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I can't, even the people within, you know, the system that you might think, oh, that's a bad person.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: I've not met a single bad person.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: I've made people, I've met people that have made really, really hard, painful, sad choices they have true regret and remorse for.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: But that doesn't mean that you're a bad person, right?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think so.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean I'm we're in agreement on that.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think that's when you have that cognitive piece and that narrative and script that's beating you up.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, you've reflected on your values and you've sought support and you still feel like a piece of crap, right?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like you kind of really have to do some of that cognitive work, right?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like you really have to be able to to to really tell yourself and believe, like, I'm not a Disney.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: No, I'm not a Disney villain.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, you know, seeking again, seeking out support, really, really, really important.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Connection.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: Someone that you can that you can you can tell some of these things to, and you know, you feel generally pretty safe that they're going to be able to hear you and not and be like non-judgmental and be able to share with you that you're like, yeah, you know, or at least at the you know, at the very least, uh respond affirmatively.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, they may not necessarily be vulnerable back, but that you have a sense that they will accept what you've got to say.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, so self-compassion again.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, when all of this is important for toxic shame, but for toxic shame, it really requires stopping some of the maladaptive behaviors, like some of the self-sabotage.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like if that's being engaged in pretty repeatedly, there's this always this sort of like, I am not worthy, like I am not good.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: I am it's like it's just sort of constant like self-attack on the body.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: So that is really important to be worked on and to be stopped, right?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: To be um, you know, but also Pete Walker.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: I've talked about Pete Walker before.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: He Yes, attachment guru.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, complex PTSD attachment trauma.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: He talks about, you know, since toxic shame is a manifestation of the internalized, abusive, or neglectful parent, and so many of us with with trauma turn our our anger inward.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, we weren't allowed to be angry, it wasn't safe.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: So we directed all of the anger we couldn't express to our parent onto ourselves.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it becomes this self-attack.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so Pete Walker talks about if you can really like stand up to the critic, to that toxic shame, to that part of you that's saying that you are terrible, you are unlovable, you're a bad person.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like direct that anger you could never direct at your parents because it wasn't safe to that critic, right?
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: And and Pete Walker would say be harsh, like shut the F up.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like really get angry, like say all those things you wish you could say to your parents, to it as a way to sort of like you have to stop that abuse and its tracks.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: You have to learn to protect yourself from that part that is because that's just a remanifestation of the trauma.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: A thousand percent.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: And and most of the time with the you know, survivors of trauma, um, abuse and neglect, it's it's a lot of that self-attack and self-sabotage.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, that's why it's so important to to be able to be angry and to sort of like protect yourself and not harming yourself and also like not allowing that abuse or neglect to continue, to continue inside of yourself.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one thing that I, you know, has been helpful for me in in in terms of combating the toxic shame.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: Name it, seek support, combat the critic.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: Combat the critic, yeah.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: You know, um, I think this conversation is so important, and I'm so glad that this is where we're starting with our emotion 101 series because you know, a lot of emotion and negative emotion people don't know how to um process, and people have such avoidance, I think, of their shame.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's incredibly painful.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: So it's so difficult.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that I think that I'm hoping this conversation can begin you in the process.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, again, we're not here to be your therapists on the podcast, but we definitely want to start you on a process of thinking about how you can address this with your own clinicians and how you can address this in your life within yourself.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: What are you taking away from today?
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: What is your take home?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: What is my take home?
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think there was one, you know, I as you were just now speaking, I was thinking about like you know, this this episode.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um I thought about it because of the listener asking about how to heal from abuse and neglect, even though I think this episode's relevant for everyone, but it it does make me think about how um you know this is super, super important, emotion 101 um to begin, but also like how complicated complex trauma can be.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so I certainly I don't want the episode at all to seem oversimplified.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it is like a you know, we need to know our emotions, I think really, so we can figure out how to name it, tolerate it, let it pass through without us engaging in some of these things that are super harmful for us and allowing to radiate um, you know, the abuse and neglect.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what I was sort of thinking, just you know, hopefully this is helpful and also um oversimplified and you know, but important too.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: On the on the note, I think what I'm taking away is uh of the oversimplified note, I really feel like just in talking about it with you here, I just I have a deeper appreciation for how hard it is.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: Even in addition to my own recent experiences that I shared, I have just such a like we don't want anyone listening or watching to think that we think this is easy.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, I feel like we really want you to take home that we understand how freaking hard this is and exhausting and important.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but but but necessary.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but just like the listener asked for, you know, what are some beginner-friendly tips?
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully, this was helpful for you to just start thinking about shame.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and hopefully we you can learn to experience shame in a more helpful, productive manner and just receive the message that was intended.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and hopefully you don't feel as alone in your own shame after we shared.
• 32:49
  unknown: Yeah.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: This podcast is intended for informational and educational purposes only, and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or any kind of professional mental treatment.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: We hope that we can share with you our experience authentically and genuinely, and we hope that occasionally we'll make you laugh.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you can relate to our quest and how we're psyched for sanity.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: The content we share is um our personal opinions and insights.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: They are not clinical insights to anyone, and they don't represent or reflect any entity that we worked in or have worked for in the past.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: But if listening to this podcast is to make you think, we'd really encourage you to speak as a mental health professional in your area.