Latest / Tiger Territory: A Detroit Tigers Podcast / Justin Verlander's legacy and the meaning of his final weekend

Transcript

Justin Verlander's legacy and the meaning of his final weekend · Tiger Territory: A Detroit Tigers Podcast

0:09
Speaker 1: And welcome in to another episode of Tiger Territory, part
0:11
Speaker 1: of the FAL Territory Network, Detroit Tigers Podcast. I'm Karen Steckley.
0:15
Speaker 1: With me, as always, is a man who has many accomplishments.
0:19
Speaker 1: But one of them is not having his significant other
0:23
Speaker 1: stand up in a crowd of people, point at the
0:25
Speaker 1: ring finger and say, that's my husband. He is Cody Stavenhagen.
0:29
Speaker 1: How are we doing?
0:30
Speaker 2: No, still waiting on that one. Maybe one of these days.
0:34
Speaker 1: Let me tell you, it's all automatic once you get married.
0:36
Speaker 1: You got to do something pretty special to get that.
0:39
Speaker 1: So anyway, we're recording this early evening on Thursday. Obviously,
0:44
Speaker 1: a lot of anticipation for the final weekend series. Justin
0:47
Speaker 1: Verlander makes his return to Comerica Park. We are definitely
0:52
Speaker 1: going to talk a lot of Justin Verlander. But I
0:54
Speaker 1: did want to start out by kind of getting to
0:57
Speaker 1: something we just didn't get to on our last episode, Cody.
1:00
Speaker 1: And you actually wrote about it. It's in The Athletic.
1:02
Speaker 1: You guys can read it if you are subscribers. And
1:04
Speaker 1: that's kind of trying to get to the bottom of
1:08
Speaker 1: this Dylan Dingler season. And I will preface this by
1:13
Speaker 1: saying I am in zero percentile of worry about Dylan Dingler.
1:22
Speaker 1: So we're all just kind of trying to piece together
1:25
Speaker 1: what is sort of like the real aspect of his season.
1:30
Speaker 1: What do you take from it? do you, how do
1:33
Speaker 1: you explain it? Because when it was great, it was awesome.
1:37
Speaker 1: And then there were a lot of times where he just,
1:39
Speaker 1: you know, I'll just.
1:41
Speaker 2: Use his word.
1:42
Speaker 3: He was cold.
1:43
Speaker 1: He was very cold at the plate. And then some
1:45
Speaker 1: of the defensive stuff, there was more, I would say
1:48
Speaker 1: lapses than we would be accustomed to or expect out
1:51
Speaker 1: of Dylan Dingler. So having talked to Dylan, having talked
1:54
Speaker 1: to AJ and having observed it up close, are you
1:57
Speaker 1: any closer to like an answer or an inkling?
2:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that's the whole thing, right?
2:04
Speaker 2: It's trying to figure out how he went from lighting
2:07
Speaker 2: the world on fire to really, really struggling, hitting, I think,
2:11
Speaker 2: below 200 since August 6th with only one home run.
2:17
Speaker 2: In a way, it's another example of a guy becoming
2:19
Speaker 2: kind of a victim of their own success, right? You
2:21
Speaker 2: set such a high standard, then you hit a slump,
2:24
Speaker 2: and the slump almost becomes a bigger story because of
2:27
Speaker 2: how well you were playing previously. But it has been
2:30
Speaker 2: a rather prolonged slump. He's at various points kind of,
2:35
Speaker 2: you know, he identified a mechanical cue. He started hitting
2:37
Speaker 2: the ball harder, kind of thought he was coming out
2:39
Speaker 2: of it. He hasn't really come out of it. He
2:42
Speaker 2: did have hits in four straight before Wednesday's game. But,
2:45
Speaker 2: you know, even if you look at his September splits,
2:48
Speaker 2: there's just not been a lot to take solace in.
2:51
Speaker 2: And so that's kind of where I've come in is
2:53
Speaker 2: just trying to kind of arrive at some sort of
2:57
Speaker 2: explanation of My hunch had always just been, gosh, this
3:00
Speaker 2: guy's played a lot, not just this year, going back
3:03
Speaker 2: to last year as well. Dingler at various points throughout
3:06
Speaker 2: this slump has really pushed back on that, which I get,
3:09
Speaker 2: kind of admire. He's not trying to use anything as
3:12
Speaker 2: a crutch. But I did phrase it to A.J. Hinch,
3:16
Speaker 2: you know, and I really thought, like, all right, how
3:17
Speaker 2: should I ask A.J. this question? Because, you know, when
3:21
Speaker 2: he's up on the podium, you kind of only got
3:23
Speaker 2: one shot. And so I just said, are you surprised
3:26
Speaker 2: he hasn't really snapped out of it? And AJ, to
3:29
Speaker 2: his credit, gave a very long, detailed, thorough answer in
3:33
Speaker 2: which AJ talked about the fatigue aspect of it. He
3:37
Speaker 2: said it's part of learning how to handle the wear
3:39
Speaker 2: and tear at the major league level. He basically said,
3:42
Speaker 2: I don't think it's surprised. I think my question is,
3:45
Speaker 2: you know, what can we do to help him? What
3:47
Speaker 2: can we do to identify when maybe he's dealing with
3:50
Speaker 2: something or when the gains, the wear and tear is
3:56
Speaker 2: starting to add up? Um, so I don't know that
3:58
Speaker 2: AJ had a complete answer. He did mention like when
4:01
Speaker 2: dings at his best, he's an early count hitter. And
4:04
Speaker 2: that's largely true here in this slide. Let's say the
4:07
Speaker 2: final two months, as you can see, one 73 average
4:10
Speaker 2: in August, two of three average September, there's probably been
4:14
Speaker 2: a little bit more chase. Um, you know, and talking
4:17
Speaker 2: to Dingler, I don't think he had a lot to
4:21
Speaker 2: say to explain. Um, and it is worth noting, like
4:26
Speaker 2: this doesn't, Like, his season as a whole is terrific.
4:29
Speaker 2: He's been the best catcher in baseball if you're a
4:31
Speaker 2: believer in F4, if you're a believer in a variety
4:33
Speaker 2: of metrics, probably if you're a believer in an eye test.
4:36
Speaker 2: I think it's hard to really rank anyone's body of
4:39
Speaker 2: work above him this season. And another interesting point A.J.
4:42
Speaker 2: Hinch made, if Dingler had started really cold through, like,
4:46
Speaker 2: 36 games and then just ripped through the final four
4:49
Speaker 2: months of the season, the conversation right now would be like, wow,
4:53
Speaker 2: you know, Dylan Dingler, such a great year, taking so
4:55
Speaker 2: much momentum into the year. But because it's the other way,
4:58
Speaker 2: there is some recency bias. I had an editor say,
5:01
Speaker 2: do any other MLB managers use terms like recency bias?
5:06
Speaker 2: I said, maybe a couple, but most of them probably don't.
5:09
Speaker 2: We are blessed to have AJ in that regard. Because
5:11
Speaker 2: of this recency bias, we kind of view his year,
5:16
Speaker 2: I don't think it really puts a damper on it,
5:18
Speaker 2: but it's through a stranger lens, the difference between what
5:23
Speaker 2: Dingler was for four-ish months and what he's been the
5:26
Speaker 2: final two months is just so stark. I still wonder,
5:31
Speaker 2: are we going to come out in the season and
5:32
Speaker 2: hear like, oh, he was playing through X injury or
5:35
Speaker 2: something because even after talking to all these parties involved,
5:39
Speaker 2: you don't really land on one thing that makes it
5:43
Speaker 2: fully make sense.
5:46
Speaker 1: Well, I guess I'll avoid using the word damper but
5:51
Speaker 1: i can tell you i you know the finish this
5:53
Speaker 1: season is not as enlightening as you know what we
5:57
Speaker 1: experienced in the beginning and certainly the middle there uh
6:01
Speaker 1: so like there is going to be a 30 000
6:04
Speaker 1: foot view of the season that we will definitely do
6:06
Speaker 1: and obviously the tigers will do but i will say
6:09
Speaker 1: if i can pat myself on the back for a
6:11
Speaker 1: second is that I was on this podcast when Dingler
6:14
Speaker 1: was hot and even on days off, he was DHing.
6:17
Speaker 1: I was on this podcast saying, I just don't know
6:20
Speaker 1: if it's best overall for him that when he's not
6:24
Speaker 1: behind the backstop, he's DHing and in the lineup basically
6:28
Speaker 1: every day. I don't know if that's good for him long-term.
6:32
Speaker 1: And at that time I meant like long-term for like
6:34
Speaker 1: the course of the season. And, and so like, I,
6:39
Speaker 1: believe this is evidence that that take has probably been
6:42
Speaker 1: proven more correct than not that is not me saying
6:47
Speaker 1: that i don't blame them because he's hot you had
6:49
Speaker 1: to put him in the lineup you had to get
6:51
Speaker 1: as many you had to find a way to get
6:52
Speaker 1: as many wins as you could to get out of
6:54
Speaker 1: that hole that you put yourself in may so like
6:56
Speaker 1: that was that's not me being critical of aj for
6:58
Speaker 1: putting in the lineup basically every day but i think
7:01
Speaker 1: this was a probably relatively predictable outcome given just his
7:08
Speaker 1: usage and just how he just couldn't, I mean, cause
7:11
Speaker 1: if you're DH and it's like, okay, cool. He's not,
7:14
Speaker 1: you know, catching. That's obviously a lot off your body,
7:16
Speaker 1: but if you're DH and that you're still, it's still
7:20
Speaker 1: a mental load. They have to go up there and
7:21
Speaker 1: try to hit a fricking baseball, you know, against major
7:24
Speaker 1: league pitching.
7:25
Speaker 3: Right.
7:25
Speaker 1: Like that's not really like, yeah, I really turn your
7:28
Speaker 1: brain off, especially someone like Dingler. So, so like, I think,
7:33
Speaker 1: Having somebody like Valencia as his backup, somebody who is
7:37
Speaker 1: a threat at the plate and suitable behind the plate,
7:40
Speaker 1: which again, hopefully he continues to improve there, I think
7:44
Speaker 1: actually would probably solve whatever woes we experienced with Dylan
7:48
Speaker 1: Dingler this season. Because as much as we love Jake Rogers,
7:51
Speaker 1: he was still somebody that you just kind of hoped
7:54
Speaker 1: would lean into one when he was in the game
7:57
Speaker 1: and at the plate. Whereas Valencia has potential to be
8:00
Speaker 1: obviously way more Way more than that, you wouldn't have
8:02
Speaker 1: to lean on Dingler's bat as much if Valencia is
8:05
Speaker 1: your backup catcher. So that would be my hope.
8:08
Speaker 2: I think that's pretty fair. Don't go 6-22 in May,
8:11
Speaker 2: which granted was the product of a lot of other
8:14
Speaker 2: injuries and things that went wrong. But if you avoid
8:16
Speaker 2: a 6-22 May, there's probably a world where you aren't
8:20
Speaker 2: grinding Dylan Dingler into the ground as much. You're not
8:23
Speaker 2: grinding Riley Green into the ground as much. and maybe
8:27
Speaker 2: Riley avoids the IL and Dingler avoids this prolonged slump.
8:30
Speaker 2: I mean, one of the things we'll never quite know,
8:32
Speaker 2: but as I look back on it, that certainly stands
8:35
Speaker 2: out to me.
8:36
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
8:37
Speaker 1: All right, we are going to take a quick break,
8:39
Speaker 1: and then afterward, it's all JV, baby. But first, over
8:43
Speaker 1: from our sponsors. So, Jay, do you ever find yourself
8:49
Speaker 1: crashing in the afternoon, needing a boost, but not wanting
8:52
Speaker 1: to have caffeine that you know.
8:53
Speaker 2: Is going to ruin your sleep?
8:55
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, definitely. Uh, found myself on the golf course
8:57
Speaker 3: a lot lately and, uh, sometimes, you know, it can
9:00
Speaker 3: be long days out there. So I reach in my
9:02
Speaker 3: golf bag, I keep the ultra focus pouch right here
9:04
Speaker 3: with me, keep it in my golf bag. And, um,
9:07
Speaker 3: it's part of my, my golf bag, as I said. Yeah.
9:10
Speaker 3: And so, uh, what are some of your favorite effects
9:12
Speaker 3: of the ultra pouches? Uh, definitely, you know, it gives
9:16
Speaker 3: me a little bit of focus, uh, that little bit
9:18
Speaker 3: of energy that I'm looking for. And, uh, Obviously not
9:21
Speaker 3: having any caffeine in it is always a plus for me,
9:23
Speaker 3: so I enjoy those things. Ultra is the ultimate guilt-free pouch,
9:26
Speaker 3: delivering instant focus and mental clarity without nicotine or caffeine.
9:30
Speaker 3: New customers can use code BASEBALL to get 15% off
9:34
Speaker 3: at TakeUltra.com. That's TakeUltra.com for 15% off with code BASEBALL.
9:40
Speaker 3: After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard
9:42
Speaker 3: about them. Please support our show and tell them our
9:44
Speaker 3: show sent you.
9:49
Speaker 1: All right, coming back here. So, you know, Cody, on
9:53
Speaker 1: a previous episode, you had asked me about, like, you know,
9:55
Speaker 1: what's kind of going through my mind as we approach
9:58
Speaker 1: JV's final outing. and I thought about that answer and
10:03
Speaker 1: I think I gave a good answer but like it's
10:05
Speaker 1: one of those things where there's just so much to
10:07
Speaker 1: it there's like so many other things I'm glad we're
10:09
Speaker 1: going to get another chance to kind of talk about
10:11
Speaker 1: it but I'm curious from your perspective somebody who obviously
10:15
Speaker 1: did not grow up a Tigers fan but was really
10:17
Speaker 1: into the game and a fan of of major league baseball.
10:20
Speaker 1: And then you, as you transition to, you know, being
10:23
Speaker 1: a journalist covering the sport, him from afar, but also
10:27
Speaker 1: now him this year, what's kind of, what's going through
10:30
Speaker 1: your mind, uh, as we approach JB day.
10:34
Speaker 2: I just finished a long story to, to run Friday
10:37
Speaker 2: morning and man, there's, there's a lot here, right? There
10:41
Speaker 2: are so many different kinds of things all coming to
10:44
Speaker 2: a head. Um, Look, from far, Justin Verlander, the way
10:48
Speaker 2: I viewed him growing up, the way I viewed him
10:50
Speaker 2: early in my career, is one of the best to
10:51
Speaker 2: ever do it. And I agree, probably one of the
10:55
Speaker 2: last real workhorse starters. We may not see anyone approach
11:00
Speaker 2: his career totals, 266 wins, more than 3,500 career strikeouts, again,
11:05
Speaker 2: at least not any time in the near future. So
11:09
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of respect for that. I
11:10
Speaker 2: think as it relates to Saturday... In some ways, I'm
11:15
Speaker 2: more of a skeptic than a lot of people. Is
11:17
Speaker 2: this a little bit, especially the two-day celebration, is it
11:19
Speaker 2: a little bit of a cash grab as I heard
11:21
Speaker 2: on 97.1? Yeah, it is. Is it maybe a little
11:25
Speaker 2: bit of a vanity project from Verlander that could go poorly?
11:28
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is.
11:29
Speaker 2: But I think anyone who leans too hard into those
11:31
Speaker 2: views is like.
11:34
Speaker 2: Missing the force from the trees. Yes, exactly. If you
11:37
Speaker 2: don't love an event like this, one of the all-time best,
11:41
Speaker 2: going out there one more time, can you really say
11:44
Speaker 2: you love the game? Can you like, this is why
11:46
Speaker 2: we love baseball. This is why we love sports in general.
11:49
Speaker 2: It becomes about more than just the game. It becomes
11:51
Speaker 2: about more than Justin Verlander's final line, whether it goes
11:55
Speaker 2: great or poorly or somewhere in between. This is, this
12:00
Speaker 2: is about the memories. This is about, about feeling something
12:03
Speaker 2: for Verlander. You know, it's important that his family gets
12:07
Speaker 2: to experience it. Watching him run around with his daughter
12:10
Speaker 2: on the field Tuesday was, No one else is out there,
12:13
Speaker 2: and she's pitching to him from the mound. It was
12:17
Speaker 2: pretty cool to see. Covering Verlander this year has obviously
12:23
Speaker 2: been odd. In some ways, it's been like he's kind
12:26
Speaker 2: of this ghost in the corner of the room. I
12:29
Speaker 2: can't say I really know him. In some ways, he
12:35
Speaker 2: still is a little bit of this larger-than-life persona. He's
12:38
Speaker 2: brushed away a couple interviews this year. But he's also
12:41
Speaker 2: had moments where he's been incredibly introspective and profound. You
12:47
Speaker 2: can tell he's done his best to take all this in.
12:51
Speaker 2: The idea that Verlander's just one of the dudes is
12:54
Speaker 2: a little bit overwrought. Even Dingler was talking about going
12:57
Speaker 2: out to dinner with him and picking his brain and
12:59
Speaker 2: how much he's enjoyed being his teammate. But he said
13:02
Speaker 2: that aura is always there. And I think that's a
13:04
Speaker 2: good way to view it. I think Verlander now is
13:07
Speaker 2: a lot different than Verlander was 10, 15, 20 years ago,
13:11
Speaker 2: but he is still Justin Verlander. I guess that's the
13:16
Speaker 2: big question as we get into Saturday. Can he resemble
13:19
Speaker 2: anything close to Justin Verlander when he steps on the mound?
13:24
Speaker 2: He sure seems pretty intent to make this more than
13:27
Speaker 2: just one inning. I think he wants to try to
13:29
Speaker 2: go five or six and get a win. It'll be
13:33
Speaker 2: really interesting to see how A.J. Hinch manages that. If
13:36
Speaker 2: he's cruising through three, man, at what point do you
13:39
Speaker 2: think about just quitting while you're ahead? It's going to
13:43
Speaker 2: depend on a lot of different things, what the score is,
13:46
Speaker 2: how the game is going. But as much as I've
13:50
Speaker 2: expressed reservations over what if he doesn't do well, I
13:53
Speaker 2: don't know, man. It doesn't really matter. I think it's
13:56
Speaker 2: going to be a fun day for a lot of people,
13:58
Speaker 2: and even if he gets rocked, it doesn't change anything
14:01
Speaker 2: about the greater course of his career. He and Max
14:04
Speaker 2: Scherzer are chasing each other. in strikeouts is a hilarious
14:08
Speaker 2: sideshow and all of this as well. So man, yeah, there,
14:11
Speaker 2: there's a lot going on. And as much as I
14:13
Speaker 2: have some questions, I'm actually pretty excited for it. Talking
14:16
Speaker 2: to guys in the Tigers clubhouse again, like, I don't
14:18
Speaker 2: know exactly what it's been like to be Verlander's teammate,
14:21
Speaker 2: but it seems like the guys are pretty excited just
14:23
Speaker 2: to be able to say, yeah, we played with Justin
14:26
Speaker 2: Verlander in his final game.
14:29
Speaker 3: Yeah.
14:30
Speaker 1: Uh, In regards to the cynicism aspect of this, I
14:35
Speaker 1: am a student of baseball history, and I would point
14:38
Speaker 1: out that Mickey Mantle had three or four Mickey Mantle
14:42
Speaker 1: appreciation days before he retired. Again, it's Mickey Mantle, whatever,
14:47
Speaker 1: but might those have been cash grabs when he played
14:51
Speaker 1: another three years after the first one?
14:54
Speaker 2: Maybe.
14:55
Speaker 3: Maybe.
14:55
Speaker 2: This is kind.
14:57
Speaker 1: Of tame in comparison, I guess, would.
14:59
Speaker 2: Be what I say. That's great perspective. They were doing
15:02
Speaker 2: this even back in the day.
15:05
Speaker 1: But, you know, if we go broader, not just to, like,
15:08
Speaker 1: what we're going to witness on Saturday and even Friday
15:12
Speaker 1: as we kind of, like, lean into it, like, trying
15:17
Speaker 1: to talk about his legacy right now is actually a
15:22
Speaker 1: very fascinating exercise. Because you mentioned, like, one of the last,
15:27
Speaker 1: you know, true workhorse starters.
15:29
Speaker 3: Like, he is.
15:31
Speaker 1: One of the last and one of the first of
15:34
Speaker 1: a generation in multiple facets. And that's what kind of
15:37
Speaker 1: makes it interesting. Because, again, you were talking about George
15:40
Speaker 1: Bush was president when he made his Major League debut.
15:43
Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
15:43
Speaker 1: It was a long time ago.
15:44
Speaker 2: If you told me HW, I might believe you.
15:51
Speaker 1: In a lot of ways, he's like the ultimate bridge.
15:53
Speaker 1: Because he was a workhorse guy his entire career. He
15:58
Speaker 1: was one of the first... guys of his generation were
16:02
Speaker 1: like Velo really kind of was like the leading reputation.
16:06
Speaker 1: I know, obviously previous generation, don't scream at me about
16:09
Speaker 1: Nolan Ryan, you know, like 108. Yeah, I understand all
16:15
Speaker 1: these things, but like, that was like him at the time.
16:18
Speaker 1: And then it carried over the majority of his career
16:21
Speaker 1: at a time that we started to really own in
16:24
Speaker 1: on that for, as a baseball of, of analysts, observer fans,
16:28
Speaker 1: all that stuff. Um, He was also one of those
16:31
Speaker 1: guys that you said no one's going to eclipse 266 wins. Well,
16:36
Speaker 1: he was like the last vestige of somebody who could
16:39
Speaker 1: get to 300. That was something that was talked about
16:41
Speaker 1: with him for a long time. Obviously, that won't be
16:44
Speaker 1: the case. And then really played his career and kind
16:50
Speaker 1: of grew up in the maturation or, dare I say,
16:55
Speaker 1: lack thereof, of the social media era. where it's like
16:59
Speaker 1: social media did exist and it was in its infancy
17:01
Speaker 1: right when he was kind of, you know, establishing himself
17:04
Speaker 1: as one of the best pitchers in baseball. But like,
17:09
Speaker 1: I don't know if he would have grown into the
17:10
Speaker 1: same pitcher that, that he ended up being, had he
17:13
Speaker 1: started his career in 2017, you know, cause like, it's
17:17
Speaker 1: just like a different era. People's patience is lesser. Like he,
17:21
Speaker 1: he would have had a completely different experience. Right. And
17:25
Speaker 1: that's not even to say that he escaped the social
17:27
Speaker 1: media hysteria. Obviously, he was the victim of social media hysteria. So, like,
17:32
Speaker 1: that's not to say, like, he got out scot-free or
17:34
Speaker 1: anything like that. But it is just fascinating, like, multiple
17:39
Speaker 1: eras bridging from the old to the new. And then
17:43
Speaker 1: specifically to the Tigers, Cody, he was, in one career,
17:49
Speaker 1: the face of a rebuild. and then kind of the
17:53
Speaker 1: signal of a second rebuild when, you know, it was
17:56
Speaker 1: time to trade him. And then this season, sort of
18:01
Speaker 1: like one of the faces of a disappointing season that
18:04
Speaker 1: was supposed to be the pinnacle, the end of said rebuild, like,
18:08
Speaker 1: you know, really competing for a world series. So like,
18:11
Speaker 1: you want to talk about a career with everything in it,
18:14
Speaker 1: kind of everything in it for Justin Verlander. And that's
18:16
Speaker 1: not even to go into like accolades and, you know,
18:19
Speaker 1: a starting pitcher winning MVP, which is like, I don't,
18:23
Speaker 1: I mean, we'll be, that's not going to happen too
18:25
Speaker 1: much going. And, and so like it, it, I don't want,
18:32
Speaker 1: we've been playing baseball a long time. I don't know
18:33
Speaker 1: if it's a one of one, but it, it, it
18:36
Speaker 1: feels kind of close to that to me.
18:38
Speaker 2: He's like the, the greatest generation, you know, the way
18:42
Speaker 2: they saw society transformed throughout their lifetimes. He's, he's like
18:46
Speaker 2: that for baseball players. In 2005, the A's were the
18:50
Speaker 2: only team that valued a one-base percentage, and by 2017,
18:54
Speaker 2: he is at the forefront of the brain-age Astros movement.
18:59
Speaker 2: It's like, no, you should throw a four-seam fastball up
19:02
Speaker 2: in the zone. It'll really help you. He went from
19:05
Speaker 2: straight feel to intense analytics and was able to kind
19:12
Speaker 2: of master both of those things, as AJ and a
19:15
Speaker 2: lot of other people say. One of the reasons Verlander
19:17
Speaker 2: lasted this long He wasn't afraid to adapt. I don't
19:21
Speaker 2: think he completely threw away the old school route, but
19:27
Speaker 2: he embraced information and technology and analytics, and he saw
19:31
Speaker 2: the game around him completely change, and he remained great.
19:35
Speaker 2: There are a lot of things about his career that
19:37
Speaker 2: are funny. He had a. 484 ERA in 2008. Can
19:42
Speaker 2: you imagine if Tarek Skubal posted a. 484 ERA, just
19:45
Speaker 2: how angry people would be? but it was kind of
19:48
Speaker 2: pre that climate Verlander for all his greatness he only
19:52
Speaker 2: won one Cy Young award as a Tiger knock him
19:55
Speaker 2: but that's just like a oh yeah and he won
19:57
Speaker 2: two with the Astros later in his career 2019 and
20:00
Speaker 2: 2022 largely because of the adaptations he made it's so
20:04
Speaker 2: easy to forget you know when he was traded it
20:06
Speaker 2: was like uh has he already kind of won his
20:08
Speaker 2: last legs well no He wasn't. And then in terms
20:13
Speaker 2: of the starting pitcher thing, my colleague Tyler Kepner did
20:16
Speaker 2: a good story with both Verlander and Scherzer asking them
20:20
Speaker 2: about that. Turns out Verlander has a notes folder on
20:23
Speaker 2: his phone of how he would save the starting pitcher.
20:26
Speaker 2: Of course. The Verlander rules. If the pitcher is through
20:30
Speaker 2: six innings and under 90 pitches, he has to go
20:33
Speaker 2: back out there. You can only come out if you
20:37
Speaker 2: give up five or more runs total or three runs
20:41
Speaker 2: in a single inning. You can come out after the
20:44
Speaker 2: sixth inning only if the dying run is on deck,
20:47
Speaker 2: if you throw 40 or more pitches in an inning,
20:50
Speaker 2: or if you get hurt. You know, as someone who
20:53
Speaker 2: grew up a little more in the modern game, I've
20:55
Speaker 2: never been a huge, like, oh, the modern game is broken,
20:58
Speaker 2: but I don't know. There is something to the starting
21:02
Speaker 2: pitcher being a draw and an attraction, and in a
21:05
Speaker 2: way that's still a thing. People want to see Scooble
21:07
Speaker 2: and Mizorowski and we still buy tickets around when those
21:10
Speaker 2: guys are pitching, but their overall role is diminished. And
21:14
Speaker 2: I don't know if I adhere to all those Verlander rules,
21:18
Speaker 2: but the longer I'm around this game, I'm like, I
21:21
Speaker 2: don't know if you told me there needs to be
21:22
Speaker 2: like a five inning minimum. I'm, I'm starting to get
21:25
Speaker 2: a little more on board with that. I think there
21:27
Speaker 2: are certain rules that could be implemented if baseball really
21:30
Speaker 2: wanted to save the starting pitcher, um, if we ever
21:34
Speaker 2: wanted to see someone approach these, these sorts of career
21:37
Speaker 2: accolades again.
21:40
Speaker 3: Yeah.
21:40
Speaker 1: And he also could be in another one of those guys.
21:42
Speaker 1: Cause my first thought was like, well then dudes aren't
21:44
Speaker 1: going to be thrown as hard or whatever. But then
21:46
Speaker 1: it's like, well, he was throwing 99, a hundred, a
21:50
Speaker 1: hundred and one in eighth and ninth inning. So like
21:52
Speaker 1: that was, he, he, he could be one of those guys. Well,
21:55
Speaker 1: Justin Berlander did it. How come Joe Smith isn't doing it,
21:58
Speaker 1: you know, in 20 years or whatever it is, you know, can't,
22:00
Speaker 1: can't hold the below into the, into the sixth inning.
22:03
Speaker 1: And again, that's another reason why he is somewhat close
22:08
Speaker 1: to a one-of-one, in my opinion. And then another thing
22:10
Speaker 1: I wanted to note, Cody, is that there was a
22:14
Speaker 1: patience element that was required to be a Justin Verlander
22:18
Speaker 1: stan back early in his career. So I want to
22:22
Speaker 1: recall his outings in the 2006 playoff run. Now again,
22:26
Speaker 1: this is his second year of professional baseball, first full season,
22:30
Speaker 1: so obviously we all understand that, but I'm just going
22:34
Speaker 1: to go by earned runs. He made four starts in
22:36
Speaker 1: the postseason. Three, four, six in the World Series. That
22:41
Speaker 1: was game one. And then one, he finished a little
22:45
Speaker 1: bit strongly. But he had like a 5-8-2 ERA in
22:48
Speaker 1: that postseason run. That's 2006. The Tigers don't make the playoffs.
22:54
Speaker 1: He wasn't involved in that 2009 Twins game. The Tigers
22:57
Speaker 1: don't make the playoffs again until 2011. That's five years.
23:03
Speaker 1: Can you imagine, like, living with that, like, having that
23:06
Speaker 1: stigma over him in a social media era where he
23:08
Speaker 1: had a near six ERA and had to wait five
23:11
Speaker 1: years to get another crack at it? And then, and
23:13
Speaker 1: then I'll remind everybody, he started game one of the
23:16
Speaker 1: DS at Yankee Stadium, gave up a run, was not
23:22
Speaker 1: particularly sharp in that first inning, then buckets of rain,
23:26
Speaker 1: they call the game, and then Doug Pfister takes over
23:30
Speaker 1: as the, you know, quote-unquote starting pitcher when they resume
23:32
Speaker 1: the game the next, next day or so. And, and
23:35
Speaker 1: after that, he's kind of lights out like that. Like he,
23:38
Speaker 1: obviously there are ups and downs, but he ends up
23:40
Speaker 1: with a career three, five, eight ERA in the playoffs.
23:45
Speaker 1: After that start, after that start, he ends up with
23:49
Speaker 1: a three, five, eight ERA in the playoffs. I think
23:51
Speaker 1: that's remarkable. But you said, what if Tarek Skubal, what
23:54
Speaker 1: if Tarek Skubal had a five, eight ERA in through
23:57
Speaker 1: like what essentially is you know it was basically four
24:00
Speaker 1: rounds right three or four rounds so essentially around the
24:02
Speaker 1: same amount of time all this.
24:03
Speaker 2: Is doing is like reinforcing why i've never quite gotten
24:05
Speaker 2: the the scooble hate um that's we've already done several
24:10
Speaker 2: podcasts about that i guess we don't need to turn
24:12
Speaker 2: it into this uh but it's interesting like every career
24:15
Speaker 2: has its ups and downs even the truly great rollins
24:18
Speaker 2: and verlander obviously is one of the truly uh great
24:21
Speaker 2: ones he's he's done A lot for this game. A
24:25
Speaker 2: lot for this sport. He's done it across different franchises
24:29
Speaker 2: and different eras. He's impacted a lot of different people.
24:36
Speaker 2: Saturday has the potential to be a special day. It
24:39
Speaker 2: could be a really awkward day, but I don't know.
24:43
Speaker 2: Even if it just goes okay, I think people are
24:45
Speaker 2: going to enjoy themselves.
24:46
Speaker 1: And I think I'd like what you brought up earlier
24:49
Speaker 1: about like, should AJ essentially, if he sees the moment
24:52
Speaker 1: to kind of get him out on a high note and,
24:55
Speaker 1: you know, just kind of go ahead and do that.
24:56
Speaker 1: And that's, you know, imagine having to tell Justin Verlander
24:59
Speaker 1: in his last start, Hey, we're going to, you know,
25:01
Speaker 1: that'd be kind of tough, but you know, like I,
25:07
Speaker 1: one of the things that's going to be going through,
25:09
Speaker 1: I never, you know, growing up playing baseball, I never pitched.
25:11
Speaker 1: I've said that before, but I had, I've been a pitcher.
25:13
Speaker 1: I probably would have been mimicking, uh, you know, that
25:16
Speaker 1: wind up, uh, you know, of, of Verlander's it's, it's
25:19
Speaker 1: one that I will remember for the rest of my life.
25:21
Speaker 1: Like you could make it one of those silhouettes and like,
25:23
Speaker 1: who is this picture? I'll, I'll instantly recognize it being
25:28
Speaker 1: Justin Verlander. Uh, and you know, one of the other memories, I, I,
25:33
Speaker 1: I have a couple of memories. I just want to
25:34
Speaker 1: get out. Like I watched, I, you talk about getting
25:38
Speaker 1: tickets to games specifically one time in college, me and
25:40
Speaker 1: my friends like came out to Texas. We were living
25:43
Speaker 1: in Oklahoma, came out to Texas to, Watch the Rangers
25:46
Speaker 1: Tigers game. And we specifically chose a Verlander day. And
25:51
Speaker 1: and then two years ago in the wildcard series against Houston,
25:55
Speaker 1: he was inactive, but he still like it wasn't on
25:57
Speaker 1: the roster, I should say. for the for the series
26:00
Speaker 1: and but he still got his little you know come
26:02
Speaker 1: out and you know announcement for the roster or whatever
26:05
Speaker 1: and i remember thinking this might be the last time
26:07
Speaker 1: like i see verlander you know what i mean and
26:09
Speaker 1: then it turned out it was you know just like
26:11
Speaker 1: with my own eyes and i remember just wanted to
26:13
Speaker 1: take that moment in even though at that time he
26:15
Speaker 1: was on another team not knowing a reunion might happen
26:17
Speaker 1: all that stuff uh like every time you had a
26:20
Speaker 1: chance to like be a part of something justin verlander
26:24
Speaker 1: even if it's literally him not on the roster you
26:27
Speaker 1: felt it was important to soak in the moment. And
26:29
Speaker 1: I think that might encapsulate Tigers fans everywhere, just that
26:34
Speaker 1: feeling of just wanting to be part of it.
26:38
Speaker 2: That's all well said. I think that's all totally fair.
26:41
Speaker 2: I don't know that I have anything more to add.
26:43
Speaker 2: I think that kind of covers it. Excited to see it.
26:47
Speaker 1: Well, I will say, we struck gold, we as Tigers fans,
26:51
Speaker 1: and I would say just as baseball fans, we struck
26:53
Speaker 1: gold with the Miggy farewell game. with, uh, you know,
26:57
Speaker 1: with the ground ball and, and, and his, and being
27:00
Speaker 1: able to get them out of the game in that fashion, uh,
27:03
Speaker 1: hopefully something similar can occur.
27:06
Speaker 2: I don't know.
27:07
Speaker 1: I don't, I've said no idea what the Tigers plans are.
27:09
Speaker 1: You think of like Mario and Rivera having like the
27:12
Speaker 1: core four come in, like take them out of the game.
27:14
Speaker 1: Like if there was something of that element would be
27:17
Speaker 1: really cool, you know, probably not, but like, you know, they,
27:21
Speaker 1: there is potential for like something special to really happen.
27:24
Speaker 1: There's all that anxiety that we've talked about and no
27:27
Speaker 1: matter what, it's going to be okay. But the potential
27:30
Speaker 1: for something really special and memorable to happen is there.
27:32
Speaker 1: And so I can't, I can't wait to watch him
27:34
Speaker 1: go over to my dad's house. We're going to watch
27:36
Speaker 1: the game and just kind of talk about the last
27:38
Speaker 1: 20 plus years of talking about JB.
27:41
Speaker 2: The whole thing right there, man. It's you, it's you
27:43
Speaker 2: and your dad. And again, another thing like for people
27:45
Speaker 2: are like, well, this, this season has been terrible. So
27:48
Speaker 2: why should I like, Yeah, this season has been terrible.
27:50
Speaker 2: This season has sucked. This is going to be one
27:54
Speaker 2: of the best moments of the season. This is going
27:56
Speaker 2: to be one of the reasons baseball is sometimes great
28:00
Speaker 2: to follow even when your team is out of it.
28:03
Speaker 2: You can still run into special days like the one
28:06
Speaker 2: we're about to witness.
28:08
Speaker 1: Absolutely. We will recap that and recap anything else from
28:14
Speaker 1: the series Sunday into Monday for you guys and then
28:18
Speaker 1: We'll have another episode recapping exit meetings with the Tigers
28:21
Speaker 1: as well. So be sure that you subscribe to YouTube, Apple, Spotify,
28:25
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to podcasts. We appreciate everybody for following
28:30
Speaker 1: us along this season, and we're going to continue strong
28:33
Speaker 1: into the offseason, so don't go anywhere. So for Cody Stavenhagen,
28:36
Speaker 1: I'm Keir Steckley. Everybody have a great day.